Greetings from Asbury Park, New Jersey, USA! My uncle was a wild man in the 80's on his gyros... My grandmother and aunt couldn't watch his stunts and would run back in the house. He'd fly from his home about 40 mins to visit my grandmother. We used to go to gyro meets and see hundreds. What a great time period. He eventually matured into helis. I sub'd! More please.
Plenty of ace pilots here in Aus that went to helis, and the rest that stuck with gyros, have tons of knowledge and will take it to the grave because not many new people take up the sport now
@@omeobandit9928 I just bought an Air Command gyro on Saturday, flew fixed wing with a PPL but wanted to get into gyros. My hanger mate has 40 years experience with them and is mentoring me through the process and I'm still going to take lessons. When I get enough theory and experience in it I'll post vids. You're right about gyro knowledge, its rare.
Ken Wallis flew 20ft 3inch rotors (wood) and they performed like this. Yes I know the old pathe footage is highly amusing but look at the performance especially on takeoff. ua-cam.com/video/SdviLqBDuKA/v-deo.html
Bloody fantastic process good use of the scientific method on show here. The Pre-rotator was surprising. Another factor that wasn't the problem here is teeter block height. The blades cone up in flight and the center of the mass of the blades needs to pass through the teeter block or you get vibration. There's a formula I saw in I think Hollan's thesis for his sportster design where he works out the teeter bolt height based on this. I would notice most machines would shake when heavily loaded. So different rotor rpm based on different weights etc. will result in different coning angle and hence different teeter heights. It does seem to have some variation as we flew one and two up in the glider all the time with no real issues until we really loaded it up. Clearly not the problem here. Was it Petroni blades? Why did he thing the pre-rotator was causing these issues is the mass up top building resonant frequency like a kid being pushed gently on a swing set perhaps the 2 per rev + the extra mass is building the frequency up?
Yep Rob patroni blades, his blades around this length used to have dramas caused by prerotators back in the day and he would make shaft drives so you can put the heavy prerotator down the mast closer to the engine and run the bendix thing up to the head to prerotate. Patroni reckons having the prerotator at the top of the mast is a silly idea to begin with. He thinks alot of things that we consider normal on gyros are actually inefficient, hes a really smart bloke and I wish he was still made stuff
@@omeobandit9928 I think you will find it is coning angle... it would be my guess that the root cause is the machine is over rotored. My thoughts are that the rotors are turning too slowly and due to the low speed, the tips are higher than the teeter height (lack of centrifugal force). You seem to have got it smooth as possible, well done! I think I would prefer shorter rotors and keep the prerotator haha
So he, the designer of the blades was implying that the mass of the pre rotator motor caused an imbalance of the mast? The mast therefore must move and thereby cancels out the twice per revolution vibration which is one of the few downfalls of the semi ridged teetering design? This is the first I have heard of this. Stranger things have been seen in the world of engineering. I wonder of there was counterbalancing added would stop it. Who in their right mind would want to add additional weight to the very top of the mast? Smarter every day
More fun than the I'll XR I'll bet😁 - I've always wanted to fly a Gyro since seeing Mad Max as a Kid! Yur Living the Dream! Happy New Year!! Keep the Dirty-Side Down👍😉
Well that was an interesting journey , Im Rebuilding a broken Rosco and your process of elimination was a lesson, also my machine has the same rotor head and a subaru 1800 as well, enjoyed your videos with Max he looks about my age .
Now this was really interesting, I never expected pulling the motor to have such a big effect! I have an electric pre-rotator on my Pitbull but much less stick bump but I'm going to try this when the snow finally pisses off! It's a little dryer & flatter where you are M8.
Hey I loved watching this vid thanks mate. It got me thinking about wikipedia, would you believe? We poke fun at it but wikipedia is great and apparently is now as reliable as the Encyclopedia Britannica. But it isn't capturing the next layer of life's experiences of people like your blade bloke. His thought about weight at the top of the mast is the kind of thing you would want to know, even just as part of trouble-shooting. But the normal wikipedia page isn't meant for that more detailed knowledge. And having seen your vid and the outcome, plus understanding a bit about how things work, this effect seems like the kind of thing you'd want to minimize across the whole fleet of these machines.
That's about the least amount of stick shake I have ever seen on a gyro video. I thought it was just accepted due to aerodynamic forces.. But you have that down to zero.. good job!
If i remember correct the guy that flew the gyrocopter for the bond film had no prerotator and it flew silky smooth. He did a programme about it in the 80's , I had wondered when they came in ?
No , he (Ken Wallis) had a prerotator, but it was really small and almost unnoticeable. I think it involved some cycle components. Cierva had prerotators on some of his machines.
Great troubleshooting ! ...and thanks for the hints. I would never have guessed what the problem was. Still, I'm curious to know what the rotor RPM was as it would give me and idea of how to select blade length according to gross weight. Thanks again !
Dear Sir, I live in NSW and found your video very interesting, if the pre-rotator was the issue causing the vibration ( and looks like it was ) then was is plan B? a smaller, less weight pre-rotator?
Hello friend, plan B is to keep flying without any prerotator and always hand spin, because I am not very good at engineering. I might do a 3000km adventure flight to the east coast to visit an engineer who knows how to move the prerotator to the bottom of the mast and run a shaft up the mast, but I need to work and save up money for it first. I promise if I do that you will see more videos of the changes!
@@omeobandit9928 so, the long and short of it is the mass of the starter motor up there was messing with the harmonics coming off the combination of your blade/rotor combination? I wonder if clocking that motor in a different spot relative to the mast would effect it?
@@roberttammerawitchey4652 Yep. I spoke to Rob, the retired manufacturer of these blades and he said having the smarter motor further down the mast and running a flexible shaft up to the rotor head would be a good solution. I've listed these blades for sale so I can try some 26 or 27ft blades with the starter motor up top again.
@@omeobandit9928 rotor rock is when the cyclic like helicopters shakes or does circle in flight or run up. It’s caused by a heavy blade. I used a rotor balancer. You place transducers and reflective tape on rotor and blades. The use the gun and point while blades are in rotation. The machine tell you Track and balance needed on which blade. It’s expensive equipment if you use the stuff on helicopters but I’m sure there’s something out there that you could use to do the same thing. Something else is, you could try to static balance, and see if one of your blades is heavier than the other, by disconnecting it from its controls and let it hang in the air. Whichever blade drupes or is heavier will go down. Then place washers on the other blade to compensate the offset. Just an idea. You can UA-cam Roeder rock there might be a video after that shows you what it looks like. Anytime you have a high speed rotating mass. Do you want to make sure it stays in balance because it wears out components quick. Are used to have to shoot tail riders on helicopters as well for the same reason. Tail rotor is usually hop at certain RPMs when they’re out of balance. propeller balancing is another thing that uses that equipment. I think the machine I used to use is called a vibe tech. It looks like you got a lot of it out there when you got that starter motor taken off the rotor. Just an idea. Have a good one
How come none of these gyro copters have a hollow ring filled with 4 to 8 oz of beads, on the rotor ? This technique was always used on flywheels to balance them dynamically. Another words a copper tube was shaped into a doughnut and partially filled with fine ceramic beads. Flywheel was always in balance and most all harmonic vibrations neutralized.
It wasn't about balance. Usually the blades are balance at manufacture quite well. However you always get 2/rev because the differences in drag at different rotor positions relative to the air in flight. I suspect in this case the heavy weight of the starter combined with the high pitch long rotors (2 degrees and 27ft) mean a lot of 2/rev and I think the extra inertia starter on the 2/rev was making the mast flex more fore-aft in the 2/rev. The fact these same blades when below 25ft never have this issue is telling.
If the engine dies the blades don't stop spinning because they don't need engine power, so you can either stall and sink vertically which will be a pretty hard impact that will wreck the machine but you will survive, or if you have a bit of speed and altitude you can nosedive to keep your airspeed up and just flare right before the ground like in a normal landing situation and set it down softly. I had it happen twice.
That happened to me a week or two ago (gearbox failed). Luckily I was flying over a road and just floated down and landed like normal because the rotors on gyrocopters are only spinning from the wind underneath them.
That's weird. Your stick shake looked more like 2/rev than 1/rev. Must have been some weird kind of resonance being created by the prerotator. Prerotators are unnecessary weight in a single seater. Mind you, with the longer masts favoured in Oz, maybe not.
Did he pull off the gear or only the motor? The blades themselves were clearly not out of balance so you think it was the drive gear? Certainly possible.
@@tadgyro i love your vids too, im moving to a different desert in a few months which is more like the colour of yours. I'll be waiting a bit longer for my new gearbox to arrive before flying again tho
Making shims out of a beer can... can't get much more Aussie than that 😅
Greetings from Asbury Park, New Jersey, USA! My uncle was a wild man in the 80's on his gyros... My grandmother and aunt couldn't watch his stunts and would run back in the house. He'd fly from his home about 40 mins to visit my grandmother. We used to go to gyro meets and see hundreds. What a great time period. He eventually matured into helis. I sub'd! More please.
Plenty of ace pilots here in Aus that went to helis, and the rest that stuck with gyros, have tons of knowledge and will take it to the grave because not many new people take up the sport now
@@omeobandit9928 I just bought an Air Command gyro on Saturday, flew fixed wing with a PPL but wanted to get into gyros. My hanger mate has 40 years experience with them and is mentoring me through the process and I'm still going to take lessons. When I get enough theory and experience in it I'll post vids.
You're right about gyro knowledge, its rare.
very persistent work, it is great to see videos of people working on the crafts to keep them running. Keep up the great work and more videos
I thought the problem was your flying over red soil but you used Victoria Bitter shims.
Awesome vid mate.
U my Hero, lost for words on the sock pmsl 🤣🤣
absolutely fantastic!
It's wild to think that shorter blades make the gyro faster.
excellent footage, too.
Ken Wallis flew 20ft 3inch rotors (wood) and they performed like this. Yes I know the old pathe footage is highly amusing but look at the performance especially on takeoff. ua-cam.com/video/SdviLqBDuKA/v-deo.html
Bloody fantastic process good use of the scientific method on show here. The Pre-rotator was surprising. Another factor that wasn't the problem here is teeter block height. The blades cone up in flight and the center of the mass of the blades needs to pass through the teeter block or you get vibration. There's a formula I saw in I think Hollan's thesis for his sportster design where he works out the teeter bolt height based on this. I would notice most machines would shake when heavily loaded. So different rotor rpm based on different weights etc. will result in different coning angle and hence different teeter heights. It does seem to have some variation as we flew one and two up in the glider all the time with no real issues until we really loaded it up. Clearly not the problem here. Was it Petroni blades? Why did he thing the pre-rotator was causing these issues is the mass up top building resonant frequency like a kid being pushed gently on a swing set perhaps the 2 per rev + the extra mass is building the frequency up?
Yep Rob patroni blades, his blades around this length used to have dramas caused by prerotators back in the day and he would make shaft drives so you can put the heavy prerotator down the mast closer to the engine and run the bendix thing up to the head to prerotate. Patroni reckons having the prerotator at the top of the mast is a silly idea to begin with. He thinks alot of things that we consider normal on gyros are actually inefficient, hes a really smart bloke and I wish he was still made stuff
@@omeobandit9928 I think you will find it is coning angle... it would be my guess that the root cause is the machine is over rotored. My thoughts are that the rotors are turning too slowly and due to the low speed, the tips are higher than the teeter height (lack of centrifugal force). You seem to have got it smooth as possible, well done! I think I would prefer shorter rotors and keep the prerotator haha
So he, the designer of the blades was implying that the mass of the pre rotator motor caused an imbalance of the mast? The mast therefore must move and thereby cancels out the twice per revolution vibration which is one of the few downfalls of the semi ridged teetering design? This is the first I have heard of this. Stranger things have been seen in the world of engineering. I wonder of there was counterbalancing added would stop it. Who in their right mind would want to add additional weight to the very top of the mast? Smarter every day
More fun than the I'll XR I'll bet😁 - I've always wanted to fly a Gyro since seeing Mad Max as a Kid! Yur Living the Dream! Happy New Year!! Keep the Dirty-Side Down👍😉
I miss those days when all that mattered was my old XR and music 🥲 I ride a 450 now, they have become pretty reliable
Happy new year to you and your family as well!
Thanks for the vid, I learned a lot.
The vibrations always tell you it's fighting itself. Less blade weight, length, will give smoother responses, vibration free
(/°•°)\ 🚁
Well that was an interesting journey , Im Rebuilding a broken Rosco and your process of elimination was a lesson, also my machine has the same rotor head and a subaru 1800 as well, enjoyed your videos with Max he looks about my age .
Thanks mate, you should upload a video of your machine when it's finished 😁🤙
Now this was really interesting, I never expected pulling the motor to have such a big effect! I have an electric pre-rotator on my Pitbull but much less stick bump but I'm going to try this when the snow finally pisses off! It's a little dryer & flatter where you are M8.
Put some ski's on it mate ;)
@@omeobandit9928 It get's too deep for that, I live in the Idaho Rocky Mts.
Remember a quickie - "low power, big but light blades, faster power, stronger shorter blades" :-Y
I'm sure it's normal but still a surprise to see that Jesus bolt is smaller than some engine head bolts.
I know... Why can't they make it bigger, it won't hurt 😁
Nice Video!
How do you want to start in the future? Without a pre-rotator that's a lot of work
Typical Aussie, first thing you try involves beer cans.. 😂
mate can I use a couple of bits of your video in one I'm making about 2/rev and out of pattern and such things?
Hey I loved watching this vid thanks mate. It got me thinking about wikipedia, would you believe? We poke fun at it but wikipedia is great and apparently is now as reliable as the Encyclopedia Britannica. But it isn't capturing the next layer of life's experiences of people like your blade bloke. His thought about weight at the top of the mast is the kind of thing you would want to know, even just as part of trouble-shooting. But the normal wikipedia page isn't meant for that more detailed knowledge. And having seen your vid and the outcome, plus understanding a bit about how things work, this effect seems like the kind of thing you'd want to minimize across the whole fleet of these machines.
what desert is that one?
Without pre roateter motor can fly with propeller machine
That's about the least amount of stick shake I have ever seen on a gyro video. I thought it was just accepted due to aerodynamic forces.. But you have that down to zero.. good job!
If i remember correct the guy that flew the gyrocopter for the bond film had no prerotator and it flew silky smooth. He did a programme about it in the 80's , I had wondered when they came in ?
Wallis and he had a pre-rotator. His rotors were incredibly short 20ft 3inch ua-cam.com/video/SdviLqBDuKA/v-deo.html
No , he (Ken Wallis) had a prerotator, but it was really small and almost unnoticeable. I think it involved some cycle components. Cierva had prerotators on some of his machines.
💪
Great troubleshooting ! ...and thanks for the hints. I would never have guessed what the problem was. Still, I'm curious to know what the rotor RPM was as it would give me and idea of how to select blade length according to gross weight. Thanks again !
It's stuck at a roadhouse in the middle of nowhere more than 800kms away waiting for me to find a way to get it home, I'll make a video soon to update
@@omeobandit9928 - Please don't fly your gyro just for answering my question. I am not that important. Relax and enjoy !
@@cybair9341 you are to somebody mate 😌🤝🙏🏼
really great video , how did you learn to fly a gyrocopter ?
I did a week of training with a two seat gyro with instructor, thanks
Cowboy stylesh flying! I wouldn't fly with you...😢😢
Bro What is Length of Full Blade
That was a great video I really enjoyed it,is it foot accelerated ?
Thanks, it's twist throttle like a motorbike
@@omeobandit9928 that’s cool👍🏻
Dear Sir, I live in NSW and found your video very interesting, if the pre-rotator was the issue causing the vibration ( and looks like it was ) then was is plan B? a smaller, less weight pre-rotator?
Hello friend, plan B is to keep flying without any prerotator and always hand spin, because I am not very good at engineering. I might do a 3000km adventure flight to the east coast to visit an engineer who knows how to move the prerotator to the bottom of the mast and run a shaft up the mast, but I need to work and save up money for it first. I promise if I do that you will see more videos of the changes!
@@omeobandit9928 so, the long and short of it is the mass of the starter motor up there was messing with the harmonics coming off the combination of your blade/rotor combination? I wonder if clocking that motor in a different spot relative to the mast would effect it?
@@roberttammerawitchey4652 Yep. I spoke to Rob, the retired manufacturer of these blades and he said having the smarter motor further down the mast and running a flexible shaft up to the rotor head would be a good solution. I've listed these blades for sale so I can try some 26 or 27ft blades with the starter motor up top again.
Interesting
👍👍
Rotor rock needs balancing. You might want to get it balanced soon. Done it a lot on helicopters a lot of rotating mass.
What's a rotor rock and how do ya balance it?
@@omeobandit9928 rotor rock is when the cyclic like helicopters shakes or does circle in flight or run up. It’s caused by a heavy blade. I used a rotor balancer. You place transducers and reflective tape on rotor and blades. The use the gun and point while blades are in rotation. The machine tell you Track and balance needed on which blade. It’s expensive equipment if you use the stuff on helicopters but I’m sure there’s something out there that you could use to do the same thing. Something else is, you could try to static balance, and see if one of your blades is heavier than the other, by disconnecting it from its controls and let it hang in the air. Whichever blade drupes or is heavier will go down. Then place washers on the other blade to compensate the offset. Just an idea. You can UA-cam Roeder rock there might be a video after that shows you what it looks like. Anytime you have a high speed rotating mass. Do you want to make sure it stays in balance because it wears out components quick. Are used to have to shoot tail riders on helicopters as well for the same reason. Tail rotor is usually hop at certain RPMs when they’re out of balance. propeller balancing is another thing that uses that equipment. I think the machine I used to use is called a vibe tech. It looks like you got a lot of it out there when you got that starter motor taken off the rotor. Just an idea. Have a good one
hello..How many horsepower is in the engine and how many revolutions per minute
110hp stock (ej18 Subaru) and cruise between 4500-5000 rev
How come none of these gyro copters have a hollow ring filled with 4 to 8 oz of beads, on the rotor ? This technique was always used on flywheels to balance them dynamically. Another words a copper tube was shaped into a doughnut and partially filled with fine ceramic beads. Flywheel was always in balance and most all harmonic vibrations neutralized.
It wasn't about balance. Usually the blades are balance at manufacture quite well. However you always get 2/rev because the differences in drag at different rotor positions relative to the air in flight. I suspect in this case the heavy weight of the starter combined with the high pitch long rotors (2 degrees and 27ft) mean a lot of 2/rev and I think the extra inertia starter on the 2/rev was making the mast flex more fore-aft in the 2/rev. The fact these same blades when below 25ft never have this issue is telling.
Bro Please tell me Full Frame Size
Are you coming to that Asra Nat’s this year at Quirindi nsw
Unfortunately not thats a bit far away for me
@@omeobandit9928 that’s ok I’ll drink your beer then
How much does it cost for me to get one like this? Also what happens if you have a motor out?
If the engine dies the blades don't stop spinning because they don't need engine power, so you can either stall and sink vertically which will be a pretty hard impact that will wreck the machine but you will survive, or if you have a bit of speed and altitude you can nosedive to keep your airspeed up and just flare right before the ground like in a normal landing situation and set it down softly. I had it happen twice.
What happens if the engine goes out?
That happened to me a week or two ago (gearbox failed). Luckily I was flying over a road and just floated down and landed like normal because the rotors on gyrocopters are only spinning from the wind underneath them.
I think it is logical that a heavy starting engine will create large vibrations the further from the center the more the vibrations become
That's weird. Your stick shake looked more like 2/rev than 1/rev. Must have been some weird kind of resonance being created by the prerotator. Prerotators are unnecessary weight in a single seater. Mind you, with the longer masts favoured in Oz, maybe not.
Nice job congratulation.
Could you use Stick On Wheel Weights to get it Balanced??
Yep that's a more advanced method and I've heard of people doing that
Did he pull off the gear or only the motor? The blades themselves were clearly not out of balance so you think it was the drive gear? Certainly possible.
@@cameronlapworth2284 All I did was take away the motor from the top :)
@@omeobandit9928 yeah so it's definitely not a balance thing.
$ how much for used gyro like in the vid
$10k-30k aud
@@omeobandit9928 thanks.i don't understand why so few .so many boater's ECT spending big$. And could fly instead
Length of rotor blades?
28 ft
@@omeobandit9928 Way too long for single seater gyro. 25" is the right length.
@@tadgyro im trying to sell my blades at the moment to change to some shorter ones
@@omeobandit9928 I did like your video and the place you live. The desert where I live is not red. Thank you for posting.
@@tadgyro i love your vids too, im moving to a different desert in a few months which is more like the colour of yours. I'll be waiting a bit longer for my new gearbox to arrive before flying again tho
Это 3,14
I sent you an email... check your junk filter :)
😎🫡🫡