"A Special Relationship" w/ Stephen Walt
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
- The brothers welcome Professor Stephen Walt to the show to discuss US foreign policy in the Middle East, the role of the Israel lobby in influencing US decision-making, and how all these dynamics may develop in the wake of Israel’s genocidal campaign in Gaza.
Date of recording: May 14, 2024.
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Makdisi Street, You're the best! I subscribed because I love your content!
Absolutely great people!!!
Thank you Makdisi brothers. I have not missed a show. Please keep going; your work is much needed.
Another fantastic episode. Leaves me wishing the conversation with Walt was much longer, many more questions to ask & dimensions to explore. I would love it if you asked him to return for more discussion.
Another excellent discussion. Please bring Walt back to discuss some of the threads that cld be explored further. I also love the hosts’ deep knowledge, and the way they discuss and challenge each other. Thank you guys! Loving your program!
Thank you so much for all of your work!!! Sina too. This series of conversations has been invaluable, particularly as a means to reject lazy discourse that does not inform someone interested in real justice.
How lucky to be able to listen to such an astute person whenever I want! And the interviewers..some of my favorites
Walt’s chronology was really interesting, how Israel goes from David and Goliath (1948-67), to “strategic asset” in Cold War politics involving Arab state actors (Nixon and Kissinger), to ??? then “Democratic partner” in the war on terror, and now strategic liability “sucking up all the diplomatic not to mention economic energy in the room.” He also seemed to suggest that Israel itself had changed and can no longer be touted as a paragon of democracy. I think US pressure to restore the AP live feed from Gaza and equipment yesterday when Israel confiscated cameras and shut down coverage was to maintain a remaining shred left in the façade of liberal democracy (free press, can’t kill en masse in complete darkness). Not a peep from the US when Israel shut down Al-Jazeera and seized their broadcasting equipment. The racism and double standards are so glaringly obvious.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:00 *🤖 Introduction to the podcast*
- The host, Usama Maki, introduces the podcast and the guest, Stephen Walt.
- They discuss the show's features, including the Patreon page and subscriber requests.
00:42 *👨🏫 Introduction to Stephen Walt*
- Walt is described as a renowned theorist of international relations, currently at Harvard Kennedy School.
- His most famous book is "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy," co-authored with John Mearsheimer.
01:36 *🎓 Walt's academic journey*
- Walt explains how he initially intended to study biochemistry but later discovered his passion for history and international relations.
- He discusses his graduate studies at UC Berkeley and his subsequent academic appointments at prestigious institutions.
04:10 *🌍 Walt's focus on the Middle East*
- Walt explains how he stumbled into studying the Middle East while writing his dissertation on alliances.
- He discusses how the events of 9/11 and the U.S. involvement in the region led him to write "The Israel Lobby" with John Mearsheimer.
06:13 *🇺🇸 Understanding U.S. interests and foreign policy*
- Maki asks Walt to help make sense of U.S. interests and the hypocrisy in U.S. foreign policy, especially in the context of the situation in Gaza.
- Walt acknowledges the complexity of this issue, noting the varying degrees of sincerity and accountability within the U.S. government.
12:33 *📚 The "Hell of Good Intentions" and the liberal hegemonic order*
- Walt discusses his book "The Hell of Good Intentions," which critiques the post-Cold War liberal hegemonic order pursued by the U.S.
- He explains how the Trump administration disrupted this approach, and the question of whether the Biden administration is attempting to revive it.
22:14 *📉 The failure of liberal hegemony*
- Walt discusses how the attempt to create a global liberal order led by the U.S. has failed, as evidenced by events like Russia's annexation of Crimea.
- He notes that despite Trump's rejection of these orthodoxies, the foreign policy establishment remained committed to the liberal hegemonic order.
23:31 *🔁 Biden's return to the liberal hegemonic approach*
- Walt suggests that the Biden administration's foreign policy team, largely composed of former Obama officials, represents a return to the liberal hegemonic order.
- He questions whether this is a last-ditch effort to maintain this approach or if it will ultimately fail like previous attempts.
26:04 *🇵🇸 U.S. policy on the Middle East and Gaza*
- Maki and Walt discuss the apparent lack of guiding principles or rationality behind U.S. policy in the Middle East, particularly in relation to the situation in Gaza.
- They explore the role of the Israel lobby in shaping and constraining U.S. policy in the region.
34:18 *🤫 Incentives within the U.S. foreign policy establishment*
- Walt explains the lack of incentives for U.S. officials to challenge the consensus on Israel, as it could jeopardize their careers and opportunities within the establishment.
- He suggests this creates an echo chamber that makes it difficult to have an open and rational discussion about U.S. policy in the Middle East.
40:57 *🔄 The evolution of the U.S.-Israel relationship*
- Walt traces the historical shifts in the arguments used to justify the special relationship between the U.S. and Israel, from the strategic argument during the Cold War to the moral argument that has eroded over time.
- He discusses how the efforts to marginalize those with differing views on the Middle East have contributed to the current consensus within the U.S. foreign policy establishment.
44:58 *🇮🇱 The outdated U.S. perception of Israel*
- Walt suggests that the U.S. policy towards Israel is based on an outdated image of the country, one that does not reflect the reality of the occupation and the evolution of Israeli politics.
- He notes the tension between this perception and the views of younger generations, particularly on college campuses, who have a more nuanced understanding of the situation.
46:37 *🌍 The contrast between U.S. and British knowledge of their respective "empires"*
- Maki highlights the contrast between the depth of knowledge and expertise the British had regarding their empire, compared to the lack of such knowledge within the U.S. foreign policy establishment.
- He questions whether the U.S. foreign policy is dictated more by the influence of special interest groups, like the Israel lobby, rather than its own cadre of regional experts.
48:23 *🗣️ The shortcomings of U.S. foreign policy expertise*
- Walt acknowledges the U.S. tendency to have ambitious foreign policy goals without investing in the necessary capabilities, such as language skills and in-depth regional expertise.
- He notes how the lack of such expertise and the influence of diaspora groups can lead to one-sided discussions and policies that do not reflect a nuanced understanding of the issues.
52:00 *🔍 Reassessing the "strategic asset" argument for the U.S.-Israel relationship*
- Maki and Walt explore the evolution of the argument that Israel was a strategic asset for the U.S., particularly during the Cold War period.
- They question the validity of this argument, both in the past and in the contemporary context, and the costs associated with the U.S. maintaining this special relationship.
58:20 *🤔 The shifting rationale for the U.S.-Israel relationship*
- Walt notes the decline of the strategic and moral arguments that previously justified the U.S. support for Israel, leaving the political influence of the Israel lobby as the main remaining factor.
01:00:13 *📚 The Biden administration's dilemma and the risk of escalation*
- Walt suggests that the Biden administration, while likely uncomfortable with the situation in Gaza, is unwilling to take substantive action to address it due to political considerations.
01:06:59 *🏛️ The political calculus behind the Biden administration's approach*
- Walt explains the political consequences Biden would face if he were to take a more assertive stance against Israel, including the loss of campaign contributions and attacks from Republicans.
01:09:19 *🇮🇱 The continued influence of the Israel lobby*
- Walt argues that the U.S. response to the situation in Gaza is primarily driven by the influence of the Israel lobby, as evidenced by the actions of Congress.
01:12:20 *🇺🇸 The U.S. context of power and insulation*
- Walt discusses how the U.S., as a powerful but largely insulated country, can often be careless in its foreign policy actions, as the consequences do not directly affect most Americans.
01:14:43 *🇮🇱🇵🇸 The political nature of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict*
- Walt argues that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is fundamentally a political issue that cannot be resolved through the use of military force or violence.
01:17:40 *🎓 The response of university administrations to student activism*
- Walt discusses the reasons behind the often harsh responses of university administrations to student protests and activism related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
01:25:02 *🌍 The future of U.S. foreign policy in a more multipolar world*
- Walt suggests that as the U.S. faces a decline in its global primacy, the transition to a more multipolar world order will be a difficult and bumpy process.
01:28:37 *🤔 The need for a new reconceptualization of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict*
- Walt suggests that there is no quick or easy solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and that it will require a rethinking and reconceptualization on the part of both Israelis and Palestinians.
01:29:18 *✨ Concluding remarks and recommendations*
- The hosts encourage the audience to continue engaging with Walt's work, both his books and his blog/column, to further explore his perspective on these complex foreign policy issues.
01:29:44 *🤝 Reflections on the conversation*
- The hosts and Maki reflect on the wide-ranging discussion, touching on topics such as the role of the Israel lobby, the decline of the "arabist" perspective, and the limitations of U.S. foreign policy expertise.
01:36:20 *🧭 Clarifying the realist perspective on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict*
- The hosts and Maki seek to clarify the distinction between the realist approach, which focuses on state interests, and the influence of the pro-Israel lobby in shaping U.S. foreign policy.
01:40:42 *🔍 The shifting justifications for the U.S.-Israel relationship*
- The discussion explores how the strategic and moral arguments for the U.S.-Israel relationship have weakened over time, leaving behind what is perceived as a purely power-driven and violent dynamic.
01:43:16 *📚 The role of the political right in attacking academic institutions*
- The group discusses the potential for the ongoing conflicts and attacks on academic freedom, ostensibly in the name of defending Israel, to generate broader public awareness and backlash.
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Every episode is so great!!
Very , very intelligent discussion .
You should have way more views .
I’ll do my best to share .
I am a US citizen and this recent chapter has been hard to watch . It is one thing for a small religious state the size of NJ with a population of 9m
On the other side of the world to be throwing a temper tantrum like a five year old but using 2000 lb bombs on its neighbors in the process .
Thats bad . But having my country defend , enable , encourage it ( for no moral or strategic reason as articulated here )… disgusting .
I need the therapy of sane intelligent analysis like you are providing to unwind the mess so we can figure a way out of it .
Thank you !🙏
Since when is Israel a "religous state" Israel is a secular state. Religious law does not govern Israel. Israelis are primarily not relgious. Netanyahu is not relgious. He doesnt keep shabbat and eats non-kosher food. how ignoarnat can one be?
@@JerryJanoff
Well , look up the 2018 law passed in the Israeli Knesset for a start maybe
(Jewish Nation State Law). I think that is a pretty quick and clear way to get educated .
Or in real life scenarios - how does one explain that my Jewish friends/neighbors here in my US city could ( and do ) move to Israel tomorrow and gain citizenship , but a Palestinian Christian or Muslim with several centuries of traceable lineage in Jerusalem who leaves Israel can never return ?
If Israel was truly a “ secular”
State with equal rights for all citizens , the conversation we are commenting beneath would be very different .
Great discussion. Subscribing
Excellent discussion! Stephen Walt is one of the greatest Foreign policy thinkers of our time! Thank you Makdisis!
Why can't we vote someone like Professor Walt as president?
How will it all end? Exactly as it did in South Africa. The Palestinians already have their Nelson Mandela - Marwan Barghouti. Give it another 20 years, and Israel will have a de Klerk.
What a dumb comment
Thank you for this excellent interview. I would have loved to be able to put the following question - if doing nothing or doing something both have adverse domestic political consequences then why chose the immoral option over the moral option. Absent extremely reliable and strong polling data, which personally i think can never exist (trump 2016, Brexit etc) I cannot fathom why there would even be a question as to which course of action to choose.
Great discussion, just want to add that the US military is the last path to real social mobility for working class Americans. The US military is a remarkable example of American socialism, and in fact the only example. The US military empire has paradoxically been the only career path out of working class precarity, so today you have bright eyed young Americans stationed all over the world. Who's going to question the military politically when your son or daughter had made a career out of it?
I think it's easy to criticize the USE of the military and still support the individual GI. They are all national treasures and we SHOULD use them responsibly and take care of them when they separate. The military, especially in a liberal democratic country is for defense. That's why it's under the "Department of Defense" here or MOD elsewhere. It is right to question why we have troops deployed to locations on missions that don't serve US interest. Maintain global hegemony is a rather dubious mission, especially if it means our troops become a target. And while it may be a good socialist jobs program, that doesn't mean it serves US interests properly. Do we need a presence in the Sahel to fight terrorists that are no threat to the US? Do we need to be in the ME when we get nothing out of it except jihad and terror? Do we need be in Germany in 2024 long after WW2 and the Cold War ended? I don't have the answers but it should be debated. Maybe there is a valid case to have such a large global footprint other than "global order".
My father is a Black man who grew up under Jim Crow. He joined the Air Force at 17 and it changed his life. Took him out of poverty, sent him abroad, and he retired E9. He is my hero and I would have followed in his footsteps if not for a disqualifying medical issue, but I don't think I would have been supportive of him being deployed to crapistan and dying for nothing. That's where the politics can be questioned. 4 special forces were killed in Niger a few years ago, for nothing. We didn't need to be there, no US interests other than force projection.
@1:33:00 The reason why the US wasn't on the Palestinian side early on is because there was never any incentive to be so.
If memory serves the Palestinians took up a pro communist stance that indicated they were more willing to align with the Soviet Union. This was not in the interest of the US. Had the Palestinians decided they wanted to be a Jeffersonian style democratic republic and that they were willing to be a partner against the USSR they probably would have seen more US support. The Israeli's understood how to work with the US for support. They knew that if they aligned with the US against the Soviet Union they would get support for their own interests (This is funny because a lot of the early Israeli's were socialists living in communes). I think an interesting counter factual on the entire middle situation is what it would have looked like if the Arab states had aligned with the US side from the beginning. And I'm not talking about people who were installed by outside countries, but if the leaders there actually decided it was in their countries best interest to do so. I wonder if Israel would even exist as a state if that happened or if instead they would just be part of a larger Arab state in a mixed society.
I think that's what a realist would say to this.
“Why is it” the answer is blackmail at the highest level, unfortunately
Fascinating! israel has scored a spectacular “own goal” too, not just the US. And the billions of dollars the US pays to israel for free healthcare, education, weapons etc., is just disgusting and enables them to behave like a spoiled child. Let them support themselves like any adult has to - that might change their tune. Thank you all for the discussion. 🙏🇵🇸🍉
Why was there no mention of the economics of arms sales by the usa? Is that not making the dog's tail wag? How important is it?
Breakthrough News had a very interesting interview on that topic uploaded on may 10.
probably not enough time lol. That would take another hour.
Are you aware that the same _special relationship_ is going on in other countries aswell?
Stephen also does not understand the Iranian strategy to eliminate Israel through its proxies in Lebanon, Gaza and Iraq. He dismisses this and doesn’t realize they are seeking the total destruction of the state of Israel and it’s Jews. His analysis leaves out the critical points, which are obvious, even to a non-alleged scholar like Stephen. The host to this show keeps using the word genocide. He should read the Hamas charter which actually states its wishes to destroy a nation state of the Jewish people. That is genocide and it’s in writing. Israel takes extreme caution in taking out Hamas fighters, however Hamas uses human shields . Walt also exaggerates the power of the Jewish lobby. If you look at the accomplishments, there is very few if any, especially during the administrations of the past four presidents.and legislators until 1968 and 69 most of the weapons that Israel had came from either France, Belgium, or other European countries. They had been unsuccessful up until Kennedy to get even a arms deal. Kennedy gave some defensive missiles to Israel, but that was the extent of the deal. during the 1967 war Israel used French and Belgium, weapons almost exclusively with some exceptions regarding tanks some of which came from Great Britain. people forget that there was a arms embargo by the United States, which prevented arms to be shipped to the state of Israel until the late 1960s. Remember, it was not until President Trump that finally recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel .
Publication is Key
Completely de-register as a voter. Remember that being registered to vote is your _written_ consent to be under administration of so-called sovereign officers - no matter who wins the elections. Voting has not, ever, changed a monopoly bank's violent Apartheid - their militarily enforced Exclusive Economic Zones are too profitable to save children.
By being registered to vote, as the Palestinians were, you give consent to be torn apart, by so-called sovereign officers, for the crimes of a another sovereign officer. Just like all Arabs in Gaza are subject to genocide today whether they voted for Hamàs or Fatah.
Monopoly currency and abundant trade is why so-called sovereign bankers genocide people. They profit from militarily enforced Exclusive Economic Zones. The forced separation of people from markets is profitable Apartheid.
Why is the Israeli Shekel legal tender in Gaza and the West Bank?
*Publish, **_ARABS & JEWS ARE NOT CHATTEL,_** on so-called sovereign monopoly money.*
Remember that a statement of sovereignty is not secular.
End Global Apartheid
'Interests' are what is traded, as refined intellectual propery, from the products made with oil and other extracted resources.