The EM2 in NATO Trials, with Jonathan Ferguson
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- Опубліковано 21 лип 2024
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Sorry for the poor audio quality - I am back at the Cody Firearms Museum talking to Jonathan Ferguson, Keeper of Firearms & Artillery at the Royal Armouries in the UK. Jonathan has written a new book on the history of British bullpup firearms, which Headstamp is very proud to be publishing!
Today we are talking about the British E.M.2 bullpup rifle in the 1950s NATO trials, which were intended to find a single rifle and cartridge to unify all NATO nations. After the experience of logistical supply in World War Two, everyone realized that in a future conflict it would be a great advantage to all use the same basic equipment. However, the various nations came into the trials with different ideas of what was ideal in a rifle and cartridge - in particular the United States and the United Kingdom.
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I'm really glad we get these collabs between Gun Jesus and the 12th Doctor.
My wife would sooner you'd have said '10th' but I'll settle for Capaldi ;)
@@jonathanferguson1211 Hate it for her.
Gun Jesus 😂
@@jasonb6101 you must be new around here
I suspect the 13th might be an android...
“Keeper of Firearms and Artillery”
What a badass job title
@@toki89666 Every person in the UK who is not insane or an ex-con has the right to own firearms.
@@xxxggthyf most people in the USA don't realize that, they seem to assume that you cannot own firearms at all...
@@Cam.Klingon I've noticed...
Thankfully, I'm over on the West side of the Pond a couple of times a year & should be there now... :-(
Those I spend time with are not only well versed in UK law but somewhat envious of the ease with which I have acquired several suppressors (silencers)...
I love being in both places but despite having multiple firearms here in the UK, I miss my pistol shooting & L1A1 enough that given the chance, I'd jump ship tomorrow.
You can only get shotguns with a maximum load of 3 shots when it comes to pump action. You can get and AR platforms but their requirements mean they have to be bolt action and use black powder.
@@michaelswords4416 you can get a semi-automatic rifle but the cartridge has to be 22. i think? sorry if i’m wrong.
Can you imagine the imagery of the 1960s and 70s with the EM2 leaning out of a Huey door in Vietnam, running down a Belfast street or even a plastic furnitured EM2A1 in the Gulf
They'd have called it L1A2, but yes, it's quite a thought.
We need a Photishop Guru!
It's interesting to imagine how it would have fared during the Suez Crisis - would it have coped with the sand and dust in Egypt? And later on Aden. It would probably have been handy in Malaysia. With a magnified optical scope it would have been very useful in the Falklands.
@kev french The provos didn't like the SLR much.
@@AshleyPomeroy The more sealed action would have made it likely better than the FAL in desert conditions, but hard to say for sure. The FAL needed a couple more years of development to become field reliable, especially in sand and dust; EM2 would have had the same development 'tail' and have ended up at least as reliable - but was more complicated and less robust longer term. Tended to double in adverse conditions/when worn, and only three gas settings (on the later guns); the FAL at least had the whole gamut to try.
Wish the sound quality was better during this whole series of bullpup. Normally not an issue for me but -every- video in this project (which is awesome) has me clinched to my speakers trying to hear what is being said.
Right click on your speaker icon in bottom right of your task bar and select PLAYBACK DEVICES. Double click on the SPEAKERS line and then select the ENHANCEMENT tab of window that pops up. And then tick LOUDNESS EQUALIZATION and click apply.
Now every UA-cam video will play back at the same volume irrespective of how they were recorded. Your PC may also have other audio enhancement features like noise/hiss reduction which you can turn on (depends on your audio driver).
@@darransmith32 Thanks! I can't believe i been just putting on headphones for those quiet videos....... If your like me and struggling to find it in W10 its "open sound settings" when right clicking the speaker icon then select "sound control panel" in "related settings". Windows 10 is basically a poorly planned scavenger hunt for settings.
Read Ian's Forbes interview, you will never complain again!
Also, the room is hideous & they ramble too much...
kmd9999 Thou shall not complain as Gun Jesus bestows his omnipotence upon us... he does not ramble, he enlightens 🔫 ⛪️
A significant worry around this time was the concept of a "broken-back" nuclear war, where the limited number of atomic bombs in the late 1940s and early 50s would cause serious damage to industrial capacity but simultaneously would not cause enough damage to prevent the war from being a protracted industrial conflict. Britain as a result had to depend on US industry to supply it's needs. This fear manifested in amongst other things, naval gun projects, with the British and American 3"/70 guns sharing the same barrels and ammunition (although the individual mountings differed considerably).
There is a lot of context missing from these discussions about the bigger military picture at the time regarding strategy and budgets.
@@richardlathrop61 Absolutely. I provide a lot of it in the book; there were sound reasons to push for standardisation and indeed to opt for the FAL in the end when only ammunition was standardised upon.
@@richardlathrop61 Very much so. The Berlin Airlift and Uncle Joe still in the Kremlin. Lots to consider not least British bankruptcy and Rationing in the U.K.
Absolutely gorgeous rifle.
The camera should have closed in on the rifle. Who wants to see them when their Grail gun is in the frame.
I had a sudden flash of alternate history, seeing myself in the national service shooting through the EM-2 the statutory 30 rounds in a year plus carrying it around in my guard corvees round the barrack's perimeter .... damn ! What a beautiful road was not taken ...
An EM-2 in 7.62 or 5.56 perhaps?
@@able_archer01 I think they did try to rechamber it in .308, but I believe that they thought ah well the USA going to the FAL, may as well get the FAL. We know how that went down ..
@@scipio10000 the FAL is a great rifle today, may not have been the best decision but it was a damn good one. Love my FAL and so do alot of other folks 🥰
The ammo is really heavy so the FAL didn't work out in combat roles
@@ironwoodnf No contest there. I shot a dutch army fal at my club. Sweet! But how cooler would have it been in .280 British 😏
Wait a minute... so, they recognised that the LSW idea was inadequate to requirement, but they still fobbed us off with the L86..!?
(sigh).... it's as if they just don't care!
I kind of like the LSW idea when it's done properly, the Russians had a good package with the RPK. Though they had the sense to also adopt a general purpose machine gun like the PK as well to keep their options open.
At least now they're recognising that the L86 wasn't a great idea, or more accurately a really bad implementation of a fairly acceptable idea. And have brought more L7s back into service and replaced the LSW's function with the dedicated marksman with L129A1s.
The argument about 6 FALs to 5 EM2s makes sense, but if the EM2 was adopted then other countries would also. That's a lot of foreign currency coming in through gun and ammo sales.
They'd probably struggle to find buyers for the chief reason FN had a better design
Barack Hussein Obama II was the FAL better than the EM2?, Australia and New Zealand took the FAL because Britain adopted it. With the EM2 in production some countries might have brought it.
Economy of scale. Chances are once the EM-2 hit production, if it had ever had a fighting chance, the design would see improvements in production and cost reduction. For example, in 1913 a .22 rifle could set you back a whole $50. That's $1303.61 today, the cost of a decent AR-15. Now a Ruger 10/22 costs about $310, in 1913 that would be $11.89. As manufacturing methods are refined, costs diminish.
Almost all military arms see the costs decrease once production is going and in the few cases prices go up the weapon has usually been given a good update.
@@reallydontlikethem had the EM2 won the trial, everyone in NATO would have been using it.
@@ScottKenny1978 No, exactly like with the FAL. But the Commonwealt and a few others probably Will.
Not so long ago, books seemed to be doomed, but projects like Ian's give me hope that we're actually on the verge of a new golden age of publishing.
Quality reference books will always be desired in real book form
Most of the reason books have been doomed is because the..... special... intellects in the publishing industry convinced themselves that no one wants to read. Add in terrible management and you have a recipe for industry wide failure.
I almost had a heart attack when I saw the price of it though... $85-95 is like double what I've paid for other nice hard-back full-colour niche history books (and I thought those were a bit steep!)
Good point. I hope so too. I am a huge book lover. I read a good amount of non-fiction and history in addition to fiction.
@@bozo5632 Until the power goes out for more than a day...
...then I will still be able to read by candlelight. ;-)
Jonathan's title still sounds like something that ought o have a formal Chain of Office (even if that also required scarlet robes with ermine trim)
Thank you for mentioning the Arrow, Jonathan. It's one of us Canadian's favourite "what-if" stories to fantasize about.
Something like an Inglis, Long Branch EM2.
I'll bet 5$ that we see That "Churchill" FAL in a furture episode
Hopped over to the Kickstarter page, and it looks like this is going to be another hit. Can't wait to read it!
The Yanks killed it! That's what happened.
Some did. Others quite liked it :) It definitely has its pros and cons though.
And the TSR2...
I thought he said Churchill wasn't a fan and prefered the SLR?
Churchill killed it in the end.
Churchill tended to make many many bad decisions though.
Another stupid decision by the perpetually drunk Winston Churchill
Sounds like they forgot the old American axiom, "Happiness is a belt-fed weapon."
Admit it, you guys just like this thing because it's cool looking.
...Oh but it IS the coolest looking gun I've ever seen, don't get me wrong.
Well it's not just that it's cool looking but that the alternative (that the US rejected this for), the M14 was pretty awful, surviving in service just 5 years before it was largely replaced by the M16.
@@sergarlantyrell7847 I have no experience with real guns but i always liked the m14 in games. Its usually pretty practical and looks nice both in wood and in plastic.
Reading through Matthew Ford's PhD thesis led me to believe that Americans played British like a fiddle without any proper arguments against .280 just by using the raw inertia and corrupt nature of American war machine, and the rest - like the French connection - was just a political matter, and a pretty stupid one at that.
I'll comprimise. A bullpup M14 in .250 savage.
I have put my name down for two of the books. My father saw the EM2 being tested when he was doing his natonal service.
Maybe Ian could convince Brownells to add these to their retro lineup
I'd love to see a replica EM-2!
It'd probably be $5500, like the SMG fg42.
Still want one?
@@ScottKenny1978 quite possibly yes.
@@ScottKenny1978 Oh yes indeedy.
Kickstarter anyone...;-)
Do they still even manufacture .280 British?
This is a truly informative video by two true experts. Thanks
Coming back to this after reading Jonathans book... :D
Thank you , Ian .
Thank you , Jonathan ,
Thanks for the video. Interesting. Keep safe and stay well.
16:42 There IS no standard issue US Army optic; there are several commonly issued optics (various Aimpoint red dots, ACOGs, EoTech holographics, etc.) but none of them are standard-issue Army wide. Different units or branches of the Army each have standardized on different optics.
Actually the really nice thing here, is the conversation between two experts.
It creates a different feel to the video. Do try that again. Because it really adds something.
The American ordinance department seem to have been stuck in the past constantly about history. Is that just because those stories are the most interesting and hence show up more or was the ordinance department actually filled with people who were stuck in the past?
"If it was good enough for me it's good enough for you, now get off my lawn!"
Aye, it seems that the only things that were adopted relatively swiftly were the self contained centerfire cartridge and the standard issue semi auto.
@@janwacawik7432 and they weren't even the first, the Russians adopted the AVS-36 first.
@@andreww2098 So basically the Boomer mentality.
@@corey3606 pre-boomer mentality. Winston Churchill's name is mentioned several times.
Churchill was a veteran of the Boer Wars in South Africa. Not too many boomers can claim that.
The most ambitious crossover
That's a really nice looking example of the EM2.
Breaks yer heart dunnit
very cool story, thanks for sharing!
Looks & sounds like you're in a morgue again 😄
Ha, you beat me to it...lol
Obviously a pre-COVID morgue
Museum's conservation room.
Really close to a morgue, but not quite the same.
In a way it is a morgue for guns
15:53 It felt really weird to look at the guy pointing at an overall quite long rifle saying that there's no way to have a decent sight radius on it :^)
From my second lesson about and with firearms...I've enjoyed the intro info as to the "Why" of a firearm, short course...That being said it's the "How" that I lock into. Your Masterful in that aspect Ian...Even when you fumble a tare down section, it's a real move, that will usually happen In the real world...That's what I look for...I'll watch again, at a later time, if I want the tech...
I am green with envy at all the commentators who have such exquisite hearing that they have to howl with rage every time there's a You Tube video, on whatever channel, where the sound is slightly "off." You must all have fired fewer explosive crossbow bolts than I did in my youth! With my firearm (and crossbow) -violated ears, I was able to hear and understand the considerable amount of original intelligence that this video sought to convey. I would like it if Kathryn Tickell were to invest in a better microphone, but Ian and Jonathan are not singing or playing the violin or Northumbrian Pipes here.
Pledged for the red book - it'll go well with my copy of The FAL Rifle (which contains a photo of Churchill's presentation FAL, complete with gold inlaid engraving).
@Ian Have you done any video talking about the history and development of the M1 Garand rifle? I know you have some M1 Garand videos like those on the sniper versions. But I would also like an in depht vide on the standard M1. I have searched but can not find it.
The channel is called FORGOTTEN Weapons. Who the hell "forgets" about the M1 Garand
I like these types of videos
Automatic pistols are essentially bullpop designs since the magazine is located in the grip that is behind the trigger
Which is why I had to come up with a working definition to exclude them...
@@jonathanferguson1211 i did Not expect a response
Thank you
They're technically self loading rifles too.
@@Tommyg-rq6lj You're welcome! And quite right about many handguns being bullpups if the trigger and magazine, or even the trigger and breechface, are taken into account. The grip is important in distinguishing a 'true' bullpup.
Best crossover ever hahahahahah
The Canadians trialed the same optic on FN FAL. It wasn't adopted on C1.
Ever thought about visiting the armouries museum in Leeds?
Awesome Videos! i wonder if there will be any answers to Canada's supposed love of the .280 cartridge in the Early FAL versions? Or the interest in the EM-2 trials?
I think the ball was dropped twice there. The .276 Pederson and the Canadian .280.
This time the sound is very poor. I can't hear exactly whats being said. Did you change the mic position?
Could you do a video of the bullpup Barrett M82a2
Me:opens gun video
Video: 19 minutes and 11 seconds long
Me: nice
Ian! Any chance of putting your hands on a Groza?
Lovely!
Always great historical info. I opined somewhere a few months ago that we should cook up a modern intermediate cartridge. My idea is for a 7x45mm (same length as 5.56), with a slightly larger case body. I am fairly certain you could easily push a 120 or 130 grain bullet to 2400-2500 fps at reasonable pressure with modest powder charges. It should shoot flat enough to make hits at 400 yards with an upper center mass hold. We know that 7mm bullets have good aerodynamics, and retain velocity well. It would be somewhat shorter and lighter than 7.62/308. Should have commercial appeal in a light bolt action for hunting as well (i am looking at you, Rem Model 7 and Ruger American Compact). So it is a slight improvement over the ballistics of the 7.62x39, with still a light recoil impulse, with an aerodynamic bullet. The Venezuelans had the 7x49mm in the FN49, and possibly in the FAL as well. I think a cartridge like this would go it one better with modern powders like Varget. In fact, it might even be possible to achieve it with the same case body diameter as the 5.56, which would be advantageous from a magazine standpoint. Commercially, you would be introducing a new cartridge into a crowded field, and you will probably not unseat the 6.5 Creedmoor. But it do present fascinating possibilities, as Eastwood famously said near the end of Thunderbolt & Lightfoot. Anyway, great video as always. Thank you
Wouldn't a 7X39 be doable? We've already seen some milled frame AKs with acceptable accuracy? And there's LOTS of magazines available.
Did Venezuela have FN49s in 7x49? I thought Vene FN49s were 7mm Mauser?
They DID have FALs in 7x49 Liviano, there are photos of even Fidel Castro with one.
2nd follow on book re LMG/GPMG research post WW2?
I would like to see this concept brought up to date now with the recent changes to ammunition suggested in the USA which seems to be closer to the 7mm, with new technology i could see this replacing the L85's. Wishful thinking
Really excited for the book. Keep up the good work.
Can you please review the Heavy Gustav for us?!
Britain was right but the US was Bankrolling NATO at the time (for some countries this never changed) so the US got their way and spent a fortune on their shortest serving rifle. They then went on alone and went .556 meaning for 20 years NATO didn't share a calibre anyway!
Jansen was Polish and if pre-war Polish firearm designs are anything to go on then the EM-2's crazy level of innovation isn't surprising. The cartridge was designed to balance a set of requirements borne of actual modern combat, in fact we're starting to return to a roughly 7mm projectile, slightly more powerful than 5.56mm but not as hot as 7.62 to defeat body armour. The optic while a necessity to a degree was still a very forward thinking concept. The elephant in the room is that Bullpup design, again not brand new, but it was the first time the Bullpup concept had been considered for a major combat weapon.
With the SA80, there are still a sizeable number of them that don't have optics. Most of those are in the hands of recruits & second line units, iirc, but iron sights are not uncommon in the British army.
At least, this was the case when I left....about 10 years ago.... so I could be completely wrong on this!
Gareth Fairclough policy changed for tours, anyone deploying had to have SUSAT at minimum. Back in normal duties in UK yes units still have iron sights.
My cousin who is in the british army as a REME loved his SUSAT sight .
Top Notch Video.
Keep it up
Excellent episode as usual. How the hell do you get a job like that? So envious.
A lot of work and perseverance, and about the same amount of luck :)
@@jonathanferguson1211 well from listening to you, I think there's significantly less luck than your modesty claims. More power to you sir.
Very interesting stuff.
I ca: not get over the feeling this was shot in a morgue and those two carts in the back are for moving bodies.
But that's just me.
They're for the corpses of guns that might have been.
Close, it's actually a museum clean room for documenting, dissecting, cleaning, and restoring.
Thumbnail: video length 19:11
Me: nice
UA-cam starting the video: length 19:10
Are there any prototype Taden machine guns still in existence???
Yes
So... which one would have been better?
Is it just me or does the soldier in the thumbnail seem to be thinking "How am I supposed to hold this thing?"
you should boost audio on this one. You need a shirt Mic. I'll buy your book On french firearms asap.
Ian also covered the Garand debacle with the US general in charge of ordnance sticking his nose in for changing it's original designed .276 Pedersen cartridge to 30-06.
Ordinance has been the bane of the US soldier's existence for many decades.
That was not Ordnance. That was Douglas MacArthur. Lots and lots of .30-06 ammo in reserve, MGs in .30-06, and U.S. ammunition plants not being set up for the .276 Pedersen played the role in that decision. I think Ordnance at the time was interested in Pedersen's .276 cartridge in a 10-shot version of Garand's rifle... Too bad all of those people must have retired by the time of the Nato trials, eh?
@@davecarlson1918 the .276 Pedersen was actually more powerful than the .280 British as originally designed. It's effectively 7mm-08.
As much as I think it would be better for everyone than the 7.62x51mm for an AR, I'm not sure I really like .280 cartridge.
It might just be aesthetically I don't like the short & fat, heavily necked down look, but it seems like it would be inconvenient for either magazine capacity or belt feeding.
Nice
Why is it 9 O'clock in the Forgotten Weapon's logo?
It should be two minutes to midnight.
\m/
Probably to make it look like half of a scope reticle.
It's because Ian is on the left
The best battle rifle the British Army never had...
Cool rifle 😁
Nice.
This has probably been covered on one of your videos... but why, when Britain decided to standardise on 5.56, did they not dust off the EM-2 and rechamber it rather than trying to hammer an AR-18 into a EM-2 shaped hole?
Cost, complexity, and - for a 5.56 class round - weight. A bullpupped AR-18 should have been great.
Jonathan Ferguson I suspected that may have been the case. Thanks for the confirmation!
@@jonathanferguson1211 I'll await the full story in the book, but didn't it go 6.2mm, then 4.85mm, then the Belgian-designed SS109/ eventual U.S. M855 62gr. 5.56mm cartridge? Meanwhile, the French adopted the M193, and then couldn't get with Nato about the SS109 change (because Belgian one wonders?)
I will note that the L85 aka SA80 aka L85A1/ A2/ A3 pistol-grip looks like a dead ringer copy of the EM-2s, albeit in plastic! Nice little "tribute" I suppose?
They did take two EM-2s and convert them to 6.25mm, but SCHV is really a whole other ball game, bloke on the range has a good video on the manufacturing issues with it.
And now we might go to a 6.8mm cartridge if the NGSW program actually goes somewhere...
When "What might of been" is actually smarter and better thought out than what was. If the EM2 was adopted we would never have seen the 7.62 or 5.56 standard issue rifles, possibly to this day.
An FAL in 280 would be a beautiful rifle to shoot.
If Studler had not been an old woman about the cartridge a 280 FAL could well have won out for everyone bar the USA once Churchill got involved.
@morton christie I do believe that you are correct.
@Craig Koehler you know that most of the world doesn't speak English as their first language, right?
I still think that the .280 is a little heavy for an intermediate cartridge, so I suspect that there would have been a lighter caliber at some point in time. But certainly not in the 1960s like the AR 15.
Only issue with the EM2 was how complex and manufacturing because of that. Not a bad rifle, at all but it's also worth mentioning that the 280 fal won out for accuracy tests overall
Either would have been a better option
Does Cody have an EM-2 or did Jonathan bring it in for the conference?
Cody have it. It's an X2E1 variant, serial number EN103 :)
@@jonathanferguson1211 I think their is a video on youtube of it being fired, the recoil in 308 is something else when you compare it to Ian's 280 video at Shrivenham. Would it have done well as a military rifle in 7.62x51 I am not sure. I fear we probably would have ended up with an early sa80 a1 on our hands, coupled with similar quotes to those about the mars pistols lol. Congratulations on the book i look forward to reading it.
@@paulgray5513 Eminently possible. It was as good as the FAL on paper, but reality is not paper :) We wouldn't have had the same build quality/QC issues as SA80, and possibly not the same level of cost cutting. But still, it's not the wunderwaffen people sometimes think. Better than some think, worse than others :)
@@jonathanferguson1211 Thank you for your reply. Much as you said the TSR2 and the EM2 looked so far ahead of their time that we do tend to look them with rose tinted glasses. It would have been interesting to see how the EM2 developed. But perhaps the greater loss was the 280 british cartridge, especially as the americans are now testing the 6.8spc which is very similar to the 280 in their new assault rifle. Chance are they will not go down that route but it does beg the question, what might have happened had Eugene Stoner produced the AR10 in 280 would 5.56 have ever existed? Curtis LeMays birthday party might have yielded a very different proposition.
Perhaps brownells could be persuaded to make one of their AR10 copies in 280 for a new trial? unfortunately only for our friends across the pond to enjoy.
@@paulgray5513 just a point of order the 6.8 rounds currently being tested have nothing to do with 6.8 spc. Its a heavier bullet, completely different case design and performance.
The sound is terrible, cant hear what is going on.
Enfield EM-2 game yes
ian could the em2 be put into service today ? if no why ?
"Wrong cartridge". And at a time our military is keenly interested in adopting a new universal military round, they surely wouldn't be interested. Even if round and rifle were far superior to what is proposed.
Its not the same calibre. 7mm is not 30 calibre ( 7.62 mm ) . The 7mm Mauser bullet was used in standard jacketed lead ball and jacketed AP . The case can be found in the old 303 cartridge case as drawn but rimless , shortened and necked down to 7mm . I have used both 303 , 7-30 and 30-30 to reproduce the cases . Any 303 case producer around the world could cup and draw the basic case using existing dies without the cost of retooling. The original case being not too dissimilar to 7mm Danish that had been produced in the 1920s . The 280 Brit cartridge underwent a number of changes assisted by FN , to appease Studler ending up with a 30-06 case head size an approx increase of around 1mm in diameter from the original . European cartridge manufacturers had geared up to produce the round as it was proved as the best in trials and adopted as 7mm NATO .
wow and today it would be illegal for Winston Churchill to own that FAL
The audio of this video should be a forgotten weapon
It's a wonderful story, but as some others point out, the audio quality is a bit poor. There's a lot of room echo, and some white noise from the mic gain being too high. Am I right to assume you're using a camera mounted mic, Ian? If so, you might want to consider getting a pair or three lapel mics, as you'll get clearer voice out of them with less room ambience.
Please do fix the acoustics. A rug on the floor, pin a drape to the wall, bodies on the gurnies...
great vid, poor sound
Sounds like the Nato trials would be a good topic for a book. Id do it, but I have no idea how.
Why not develop the fg42 more? comparable in size and function and converting to 7.62 from 8mm mauser seems doable. Even the detachable scope on the fg42 seems superior.
Fragile and complicated and expensive. It never saw standard issue for a reason. Your gonna see it in the hands of paratroopers and spec ops because they can maintain the weapon. The average rifleman cannot be trusted with something like an FG-42
The stoner weapon system was probley the nearest we are going to get
Cant wait for this series to be over.
"Very different lessons"
The Americans learnt a lesson?
What?
I see you are speakin proper American.
James Neave To try and beat the french for the title of the most annoying git in NATO?
Probably learning from the complaints of M1 carbine stopping power and thinking that only a full power cartridge will do. Blame GIs who couldn't hit shit and thusly blamed 30 carbine stopping power for their accuracy problem
@@TripleThreatKris That didn't manifest until after the Korean War and GIs during WWII absolutely LOVED the M1 Carbine. These complaints never surfaced until well after the Korean War and never with any substantiated claims. No primary source cites this ever being a thing.
@@xclonejager6959 That's a war that's as hopeless as Vietnam, but we'll prosecute it with the same level of determination and waste. We shall not rest until we are loathed from Klaipeda to Vancouver, and Antalya to Reykjavik. Let no soul welcome the sight of the Stars & Stripes with a smile and kind word, but groan in annoyance as we lecture you on why, exactly, it is that soccer is a lame sport that should be replaced by true, glorious, American football.
Churchill strikes again, I see!
And now we don't have them for purchasing as surplus or new :( .
I'd have loved to see how it grew over the years of service.
Not really Churchills fault. Churchill had the EM-2 dropped on a promise from the US that all NATO members would use the same service rifle, which is why the UK, Canada, Belgium etc (pretty much all countries that were eyeing the EM-2 as their next service rifle) went with the FAL.
Then the US went 'lol nah' and adopted the M14. Which pissed on Churchill and pretty much everyone else in NATO.
Everyone got pissed off again when the US adopted the 5.56 NATO round and the M16 4-5 years later.
EDIT: Churchill may have favoured the FAL, but he still signed off on the EM-2 as a service rifle as it WAS actually adopted as the Enfield Rifle No.9 SLR so he likely saw the benefits of the EM-2 as well as personally really liked the FAL.
@toeff7852 I sense some rather undue hostility.
The reason I mentioned surplus is because I would love to own one that's all. The same way I'd love a FAMAS or many other arms. I don't see how desiring to own a copy of an, in all probability would have been an excellent rifle is an issue.
I just think the UK, could have continued down a really interesting development with it, and maintained an innovative arms industry (maybe).
Oh and Churchill wasn't a war leader really at this point. ... because the war ended years prior.
@@titytitmk2738 yeah, but it's actually easy to blame Churchill because he often had terrible, terrible ideas. Though he was silly to think that the US - UK relationship was the same after FDR died.
Tbh, it really was an issue with the ammo. With the States playing hardball, the em 2 wasn't going to survive, tragically.
I automatically started humming Me 'N Me Little Armalite when I saw pic of a British firearm in the notification.
Hey i want to know what U think about about the game "world of guns" and if this good sorce to get some info about the guns, i still gonna watch this channel.....but i just want to know if its a "nice game" with good info
Sorry about my txt im russian
Jonathan was sponsored by them in a video recently and said it's very good
Strange you talk about volume of fire as a detriment of box fed section support weapons but then they excrete the L86
Yes, and look how well that turned out ;)
@@jonathanferguson1211 tbf, many are ok with box fed mgs, because everyone can pack an extra mag or two if they need to (except on exercise because effort). Belts are better but you're not easily persuading someone to do so as it's really inconvenient.
@@jonathanferguson1211 isn't the L86 LSW being pushed into more of a DM role than a 'machine gun' ?
@@uhavedied12334557 It's been used in that role on and off over the years since the Minimi (LMG) was procured and the GPMG came back into the Section. It's since been withdrawn from the Section entirely and is not subject to the A3 upgrade programme.
@@jonathanferguson1211 the crow cannon gone?!? I'd say I was sorry to hear that but having lumped that sodding thing about I can't say that I'm shedding to many tears
At the end of the second world war, Britain was bankrupt, and a huge debtor to the US. Is it any surprise we made these decisions? To have proceeded with these weapons would have required the kind of Victorian confidence and determination that had been broken by the 1940's.
If the circumstances and Churchill hadn’t killed it, would an EM-2 in 7.62 NATO have been a practical endeavor? Obviously a lot of the controllable full auto aspect would be gone, but most of the other advantages it held over the M14 and FAL would remain.
Oh, very practical. I'm fortunate enough to have fired it, and it's soft-shooting for a 7.62. A lot of developmental work went into the X2E1, which is the 7.62 NATO EM2 variant. The trouble is that the only advantage it really has over FAL (I'll ignore M14!) is its compactness. And that wasn't worth the cost and risk factor of going it alone... Perfection being the enemy of 'good enough', and EM2 being far from perfect either.
This isn't a very good take. The gun wasn't adopted because the interchanability with the allies and supply chains was smarter to pursuit than reducing individual troop loadout weight
@@jonathanferguson1211 And the FN later reduced the compactness advantage the X2E1 had over the FAL by introducing the "Para" FAL carbines, 50.61-50.64, though as I'm sure you know the Commonwealth never adopted them.
I have read that the X2E1 was significantly larger and heavier than the original EM2 - is this the case?
With all the recent interest in bullpups, you should check out this animated video. ua-cam.com/video/LWMFjc2QbtI/v-deo.html
Thus speaketh gun Jesus and Johnathan.
tsr2 and avro arrow were ended by lendlease being called in if the politicians didnt drop them.
I don't think Diefenbaker needed any help from the US to come to that decision. He clearly despised the Arrow.
The influx of Lend Lease equipment and resources allowed British industry to zero in on what was viewed as a "war winning" industrial enterprise... Namely, the construction and crewing of a vast fleet of Avro Lancaster four engined bombers, which since the 1930s had been touted as capable of dealing a "knockout blow" and, of course, the self-defending bomber "would always get through." Well, first, the self-defending bomber didn't "get through." Second, the only thing that the bombers could reliably hit was something really, really big. Not a munitions factory or ball bearing plant or synthetic fuel plant... But a city. A big city. And even though bombing would avoid the pointless mass slaughter of trench warfare, well, some British RAF bomber regiments had 40 percent fatalities. Not casualties. Fatalities. Casualty rates could be up 60 percent! So, to avoid getting shot down, bomb at night. To actually hit something, just carpet bomb a German city and call it a systematic "de-housing" of German workers, who were overseeing the lavish use of foreign labor and actual slave labor at hugely productive if highly inefficient factories turning out all sorts of crazy German weapons... and even then get shot down by Nachtjäger Me110s or Ju88s or what-have-you and absolutely enormous quantities of flak, from 128mm to 105mm to 88mm to 40mm to 37mm to 20mm to... gosh, 15mm aircraft guns repurposed as flak guns, and captured Soviet 85mm guns, some bored out to 88mm and so on and so forth. Sorry 'bout Dresden! Not so much for Hamburg--remember Coventry!--or Lübeck--German bastards' V-1 and V-2 after all!
Look at Bomber Harris and Bomber Command... truly mind-numbing!
Reference?
david belcher
Trump
@@davidbelcher72 Richard Overy, _The Bombing War: Europe, 1939-1945_ (2013).