Mario games are a prime example of a game that really *should* be gameplay first to a big degree, and yet everybody almost universally loved Rosalina's storybook. Just a little bit of story focus can go a long way towards helping players engage with a game emotionally beyond just thinking "hey jumping around is pretty fun."
It's insulting. It's like he still thinks he's making video games for six to eight year olds Only. Actually six year olds like stories anyway, the games are too dumb for even that age group.
What makes his interference in the Galaxy games so aggravating is a the story book was a BACKGROUND thing. I could sympathize somewhat if Miyamoto was just opposed to too many long cutscenes and dialogue exchanges. That works fine or even better for some games. But Rosalina’s storybook was a side element that you could engage with at your own leisure and didn’t even get in the way of enjoying the main game if you missed it. The fact he disliked that and made sure nothing like it was in SMG2 shows that he is not just indifferent to story but actually dislikes it.
@@Zelink108 That's kinda the thing though, the RPGs are such a massively different beast that I'm hard pressed to even calll them "Mario" games so much as RPGs with a Mario skin. Don't get me wrong, I love the RPGs but you say "Mario", the likes of NEW Super Mario Bros or Galaxy comes to mind a lot sooner than Superstar Saga.
He always seems to be involved in my fave Nintendo games. The strp down in my enjoyment from Galaxy 1 to 2 was immense. I loved how dramatic Galaxy got by the end and looked forward to a continuation. Instead we got a reboot.
I feel like everyone who got treated badly by Nintendo has to articulate their frustration in a polite manner or else people are gonna think they're worthy of dismissal. I just don't know how people expect someone who has every right to be angry to articulate their anger like they're a lying sociopath. Of course you're hurt, you're gonna call it out as it is... A ripp off. A legally possible but highly unethical business practice. Arlo has to be polite because he will be extremely opposed by Nintendo. But you guys don't have to be, you're paying them .. They haven't given you free stuff for one, and you don't run channels where you have to be sponsored by them in order to make a living. Call 'em out. You don't owe them anything 😏
@@samf.s.7731 On the one hand, you can get review copies of games for free so you don't have to pay for something you may not like. On the other, you can say whatever you want and get punished for it, even if what you're saying is completely harmless and true.
@@samf.s.7731 Arlo was dropped from Nintendo’s brand ambassador program back in 2020, along with a lot of others. I don’t think he gets free review copies anymore, not from Nintendo at least. Some third-party game companies still give him review copies on occasion though.
That's too bad, because the story is the best part in my opinion. A good story makes almost any game so much more fun. And as a wise man once said, "If it's not fun, why bother."
@@DanGamingFan2406 Even games like Shovel Knight and it's other campaigns were solid from a gameplay perspective, but the game had fun with itself and the story and it frames the whole thing together nicely and characters have character. If you remove all the character and framing from the game, you'd have just another generic platformer, it might even be a good one, but it wouldn't be special. Imagine if Star Fox didn't have any characters saying anything at all. Would any one remember it other than an oddity of the time?
@Will Br gamer story is not king in this medium gameplay should always come first a good story is just a bonus A good story without gameplay is just a movie a gameplay without any story is still a game
The problem with the Paper Mario Survey is that it only asked "What's your most important feature?" Of course, I said Gameplay, as terrible gameplay won't be saved by a good story. BUT, it failed to take into account that one might find gameplay most important, and story very high on the list.
It's like asking what's more important in Smash. Gameplay or characters? I'd say gameplay, which is why I eventually stopped playing Brawl. But I'm still not gonna buy a Smash game that lacks most of my favorite characters, which is why I completely skipped Smash 4. And then none of that matters anyway if the game is a broken mess to the point that it's just frustrating to play, which is why I never would've played Rivals of Aether without mods. In the end, I stick with Rivals of Aether because unlike modern devs, modders will actually give me what I want. Point is you can't just focus on one or two things & expect to get a good game out of it.
@D YellowMadness I can agree. For Smash, I highly value mechanics, so I play Project M. Sure, I'd love to play characters like Terry, but I got PMEX Remix for that. Still, games are multifaceted, and one thing I realized while working on Project M is that while I wanted a good competitive game, I also learned that it was important to add more to the package for it to feel more complete.
Correct me if i am wrong but the survey also only asked if you cared about the story of the game or not, right? Thats definitely not the same as asking if someone cares about stories IN GENERAL.
@walaceandrade4046 Yeah, but as Chuggaaconroy mentioned in his Sticking It to Sticker Star videos, the main problem with the survey was it didn't require participants to say if they played the game or not. Most unfortunately didn't and their ignorance colored the results.
Maybe he could bother the Zelda team with the story, lord knows totk and botw didn’t deliver, fuji made ONE good story with SS and he can’t seem to replicate the same quality.
This made me really like Koizumi much more. He was the reason for some really interesting games that have really stood the test of time. Miyamoto does have a great legacy, but he also has a track record of being petty, spiteful and stubborn as a mule. Koizumi with more control would be an interesting twist.
I had no idea he was the one who put the story into Link's Awakening. Super Mario Galaxy 2 was lesser than Super Mario Galaxy in many ways as well, and story was definitely one of them. I like Koizumi a lot now.
I choose Mario 64 over Mario Odyssey, but it's not about who of Miyamoto or Koizumi is right. They are complementary, focusing too much on the story and you have a bad game, but story can add flavour.
@@mjc0961 It’s pretty much the only way Galaxy 1 can be considered better, I think Galaxy 2 is overall better, more power-Ups and dinner level design. The empty ass hub world from Galaxy can’t really be counted as something important imho
If anyone in the industry deserves to be stubborn though, its Miyamoto. But shelving creativity in any capacity is an interesting approach to game design
I mean, look at Kirby. There's usually very little story, leaving it all crammed in at the end, or in pause menu stuff, but when it gets rolling HOO BOY!! I am never gonna forget Forgotten Land's climax, and Susie and Haltmann are some of my favorite characters in the series, starring in my favorite Kirby game. A game doesn't need to be story heavy to be memorable, but just the right amount makes it magical.
Kirby games take you on an ADVENTURE thanks to their narratives and world-building, and it’s one of the many reasons it will be my preferred platformer series compared to Mario. EDIT: For the record, I’m not saying that Mario needs to start bringing in a bunch of lore, it’s just a matter of taste.
@@Hauntaku it also helps Kirby as dumb as it sounds has a personality. He is kind, likes to eat, have fun, make friends, etc. Super simple but he is a person. Mario has literally nothing on the mainline games other than save X. I really wish they give him a little more.
I basically agree with all of this. There need not be a dichotomy of Story vs Gameplay, because unless you are making a basic ass arcade game, even just a little story to grab onto is important. It doesn't have to be Shakespeare! It can be as basic as you like. All I'm asking for is just SOMETHING to grab onto. Look at my two favorite franchises, Mega Man and Castlevania. Mega Man games, specifically the Classic series, don't typically have much story. They do, however, have just enough to have some character exploration and depth. Castlevania was largely story agnostic for a while, but creators took established lore and expanded upon it, giving one of the more heartbreaking origin stories of one of the most iconic weapons in video game history. These examples are not high art, but they give weight and importance to their specific canons, giving validation to those paying attention to the flavor text and world building. To bring it to Kirby, even without digging into deep Holy lore, Kirby is largely gameplay, but with enough story so that you can grab onto its world and characters, and care when they fall to the forces of darkness or stand stalwart against them. Even laugh at how many times our hero has stumbled face first into apocalyptic danger with a smile to his friends and determination to his enemies. Hell, using the Link's awakening example, could you fathom in a post Link to the Past world, a LoZ game WITHOUT a story foundation? How many beloved characters, how much emotional weight would be just LOST?
I find Miyamoto such an interesting figure. On the one hand, he is absolutely one of the smartest game designers in history. On the other hand, he has such odd and awkward ideas about what the player actually values, and that usually gets in the way of Nintendo creating a larger variety of games. F-Zero being shot down repeatedly is a great example. A new and expansive narrative would do a sequel wonders. New graphical fidelity, track complexity, online multiplayer, a fully functional track maker, immensely intense physics etc, would do WONDERS to make a new title in the series a knock out hit. But because Japanese sales of GX were lower than expected and he has no new ideas on how to add something radical to the game, the game doesn’t get made, even if another team pitches it to him.
@@BradfortBottlenose Part of it is his experience as an actual lead designer ended with Mario 64. And his experience made him grumpy. He was planning on making Mario more "mature", and then he basically never got to fully control a Mario game ever again
More concerning than Miyamoto shutting down stories in games (for me at least) is the possibility that they've shut down actual games because they assumed people wouldn't like them. We've recently been hearing that Nintendo have been taken by surprise at the success of Metroid Prime Remastered; what if those shutdown Retro games actually might have been beloved by the community but Nintendo cancelled them because they couldn't see/understand the potential? 😢
Remember that 1 chapter from Paper Mario TTYD where Mario is on a train and uncovering mysteries for basically the whole thing, with no gameplay and mostly just storytelling? That was such a fun chapter!
It's terrible for repeat playthroughs though, imo. It goes from one of the most memorable chapters in the game, to a pretty boring one. Wish there were ways to mix up the order of events in repeated playthroughs. Or skip to the end if you know something specific revealed later in the chapter.
@@DaNintendude Yeah, I agree. It is bad for repeat playthroughs. But I don't replay the game enough to where it bothers me. I mean, I could read a good story again if I enjoyed it enough the first time. Plus, it's a very memorable chapter with some very memorable characters! I will certainly take that over anything from these more recent games. I do like the idea of having multiple routes in a Paper Mario story. I'd love to see that in a Paper Mario chapter one day! Or... I would say that if the series still stuck to its roots to this day.
I honestly never cared much for that part of Chapter 6... it's tedious on repeat playthroughs and I hate Riverside Station. I thought the Sunset Express from Color Splash was way more fun.
@@DaNintendude The over the top sound every time the penguin says something wildly unfunny sure didn't help. I didn't mind the first time but on repeat playthroughs, that really took a hammer to my already dwindling patience.
Let me tell you, ever since Koizumi came on the scene as a main figure behind the Switch, I have wished we saw more of him! Mans reminds me of the skit days from Reggie and Iwata. Just seems to have a plan that resonates and seems to be down to do fun things for directs and such. Learning that he is a driving force behind the stories on many of my favorite games is a surprise, but a welcome one to be sure!
Koizumi is a genius. Look up the man's track record. HD Rumble and the Switch design is just his most recent inventions. He also created Z targeting in Ocarina of Time.
@@MikeMohamedTo be fair Iwata had a big hand in the Switch design and HD rumble is just haptic feedback with a fancy name. Both Sony and Nintendo use it in their 9th gen controllers Koizumi didn't invent that, but Koizumi is great. Miyamoto should just focus on movies and let him fully take the creative reigns.
A funny thing about the whole "Surveys said Paper Mario players don't like story" thing, and this was brought up by Chuggaaconroy in his "Sticks it to Sticker Star" series Not only does it seem like there has _never_ been any other case of a game or series being impacted and basically completely -butchered- reshaped by the surveys, but also the surveys had a reward incentive with Club Nintendo, so it's very likely that the majority of folks who actually did the surveys just quickly went through them without any thought just to get whatever rewards they wanted And the surveys were basically multiple choice questions with a scale of 1 to 7, 1 being "it was bad" and 7 being "it was good", and of course 1 was up top so basically everyone who skimmed through effectively just said the game was absolutely terrible on all accounts To put it short, the surveys were actually horribly unreliable, and the only reason anyone would ever try to use them to enforce a decision is if there was an agenda they wanted to push anyway and just needed an excuse
@@NuiYabukonah. As opposed to the agenda LITERALLY EVERYONE WANTS 😂😂 It doesn’t take much to see WHY people like what they like This is not just another cynical UA-camr. This is pure and utter facts. Literally business and profits could tell you instantly that this is the case for practically everyone.
Miyamoto makes it sound like story and gameplay are two different 'ways' of doing about making a game, instead of them both being two different pieces that work together to create a satisfying experience. The gameplay and the story should feed into each other in meaningful ways. One shouldn't just be a slave to the other.
The game doesn't have to be a greek epic or anything, but framing the game and giving the characters and the world some personality go along way towards the enjoyment of a game, even if you mostly skip it on repeat playthroughs, it's already cemented it's flavour in the audience's mind.
@@TheJadeFist I mean just take Kirby for example... there's a little bit of story at the start to get you going, everything afterwards is entirely gameplay, and then at the end they drop a bombshell of story and lore that gets you hyped. And a lot of the lore and story is also completely hidden in pause screens and side stories, its entirely optional and doesn't take away from the gameplay at all.
Because that's how it is. As a 10 years expierienced game designer I can tell you. You either approach the game from narrative perspective and then you try to slap Together a gameplay scenario that will tell your story. Or you approach it from gameplay first perspective and then story will have to be adjusted to highlight gameplay aspects. Its like in a dance. One has to lead.
Miyamoto is like your successful boomer dad/grandpa in the family who expects things to just work the same as when he did it, and is completely oblivious to all the cultural and technological changes over the years and is just super resistant to any change and everyone else just sort of sighs and lets him do his thing because they either respect him too much or are too afraid of getting an earful of "THIS IS HOW WE DID IT BACK IN MY DAY, AND IT WORKED"
I find it funny how much western Boomers are hated by Western Millennials and Zers when Millennials and Zers are probably going to be just as hated by future generations not even alive yet. Such a contrast to East Asia where we honor and respect our ancestors. Even if we disagree with them
@@samf.s.7731 "Better to be a Boomer than be in a generation of whiners 😂" a common rebuttal I hear from boomers to the "ok boomer" remark. And there is truth to that. Boomers are, for the most part, a generation of winners.
@@HoshizakiYoshimasaBecause they were effectively playing the game on easy mode. Their generation could graduate college debt free just by working on weekends.
To add my own 2 cents: I don't know if I agree with Miyamoto's "story approach vs gameplay approach" as a way to design games. Obviously he deserves credit for all he's done in the industry, but games are in a much different place now, and have been for a while. Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw talks a lot in his Zero Punctuation series about his desire to see video games take the unique strengths of their medium and distance themselves from movies or "cinematic" experiences. He speaks about how gameplay should inform story, and that they should serve one another instead of being two separate things mashed together. I'll cite his ZP on Hades for the best example of this. He praises Supergiant for merging the game's roguelike gameplay loop with the visual-novel style story and character development, and how the repetition and slog of multiple deaths from the player are meant to illustrate Zagreus' struggles to break out of the underworld and find his mother in the story. Ideally, imo, game designers shouldn't be picking gameplay OR story to focus on; they're not mutually exclusive or on opposite sides of a spectrum. They can start design with one of them in mind, of course, but I personally believe gameplay and story should be interwoven because that's something video games are uniquely able to do. If anything, this interview just seems like MORE confirmation Miyamoto dislikes story, because he's made this dichotomy where he can excuse not focusing on story through the implication that games with story focus focus less on gameplay, which is incredibly disingenuous from my perspective. But hey, what do I know? I didn't make Mario.
Miyamoto's statement generally made sense to me but it is definitely best to treat gameplay and story as interwoven things rather than separate. I think one of the problems is that you have people that work on games separated into different focuses and not enough consideration for how everything fits together.
If anything, it now CONFIRMS WHY is that the case, because he genuinely thinks putting story ruins the gameplay. Maybe it was the case on the 80's and early 90's, but nowadays computers have evolved to do both and build between eachother; in short, a very outdated mentality.
I feel like games like Last of Us and GoW 2018 (specifically 2018, Ragnarok was worse with it) can't be discounted too quickly either. In TLOU 1 Ellie became more helpful and deadly over time as she got hardened and skilled. When she was distracted or upset she began to disrupt the flow of the game as Joel would have to prod her a few times to get her to do what she needed to do. The constant scrabble for health and ammo when there's little to be had also made the world feel hostile and the entire journey more personally harrowing in a way the TLOU TV show cannot possibly capture. Really, watching the TV show made it clear what the value of a good "cinematic" game can be. Same goes for GoW 2018 with Atreus' growth and his aggression changing depending on where in the game you are. Ragnarok seemed to care less about this as it's almost completely straightforward and didn't take advantage of using gameplay to tell its story as much. And I think it's the worse game of the three for it.
This is an important idea, however there are many popular games that simply tell the story to the player without letting the gameplay inform or reinforce narrative ideas and themes. That’s the best part of games, imo: the story can be informed by the player experience. Making players watch cutscenes where something happens to the player/character they would otherwise control is often a cowardly choice and often makes the game actively worse.
"I just don't think it needs a story" is a WILD thing to say about a game series that started out being called (in Japanese) "Mario Story" [Paper Mario 1]
To any Miyamoto defenders watching this, it’s important to remember that two different things can be true. Miyamoto had a big hand in revolutionizing games, and we owe a ton to him. At the same time, he actively holds artistic growth back in Nintendo games with his story allergy.
Could not agree more. Miyamoto was one of the heroes of video games but he actively hurts Nintendo now because of his stubbornness and cultist belief in his gameplay philosophy.
HE DOESN'T. The f*** you people think one person decides everything in the company? Despite the fact that Miyamoto had to essentially rebel against the higher ups with Yoshi's Island?
I know this sounds lame, but as a kid, I was obsessed with Super Paper Mario's subversive story and was intrigued by its mysteries. I even watched several blind playthroughs to see different reactions to the story. Of course, now I am older and know that the story isn't as grand as other things I've seen by now for sure. It was my first Paper Mario game and one of my first games in general and it blew my mind away! I still think about the game's story to this day on occasion.
It's far from the greatest in any video game (most JRPGs provide steep competition in that regard), but it is _easily_ the best story in a _Mario_ game.
I LOVE the past two Arlo videos being especially petty. I'm all for positivity but a good reality check with a fuzzy blue monster is very cathartic somehow
Nintendo fans have a terrible habit of silencing all criticism as "toxicity". Arlo being one of the few critical voices that doesn't get silenced is a healthy thing.
My favorite game ever is Mega Man 9. I have no idea what the story is. I don't play games for story. The only game stories I remember are Bioshock and The Last of Us.
Story also makes me engaged, and wanting to keep playing the game because I want to see how it plays out. I would have played Sticker Star with that shitty gameplay if the story was as fun as ttyd and Super Paper Mario.
We probably already know this but I think the main distinction is that Miyamoto thinks the main purpose of a game is to be as fun as possible, while we look at games as more of an art and a form of expression. Many of us want games to connect with us at a deeper level than just surface level fun.
So does he, that was the whole point of the original legend of zelda, to create a sense of wonder and immersion. You have no idea what you're talking about
Do we, though? I mean I do, but it often looks to me like gamers in general would rather just screw around in a gameplay sandbox and ignore any story, if there is one.
@@rareosts5752 And even in the OG Zelda there was a degree of story. Sure, it was minimalistic and could be skipped with ease, but it was still there and gave the explorative gameplay a frame, a context, a narrative pull. The overarching mystery of the game was the presence of Ganon (or "Gannon"); reminder his appearance wasn't known until you played through the game at the time, so that was compelling. Heck, even getting the sword is a marriage of narration and gameplay. "It's Dangerous To Go Alone. Take This" tells you that you're in a hostile place but there will be people in caves helping you, which is true in gameplay.
That's pretty much Elden Ring, there's this intricate GRRM written story behind the whole thing, and you "like just totally not even know it's there" if you're not someone who's looking for a story in a game you're playing 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I only start not paying attention when I've decided a games story is really bad, which is the case for a good 90% of Nintendo games. After deciding the story is bad it's just kinda tedious and sometimes annoying that they keep pushing it. Alot of games would have been better without any story at all, though I do still think a good story can add alot
I'm a story guy, it's the first thing I look for in any game. I want to know what is going on, and why I'm doing what I'm doing. I want to know about the world I'm in, and why I should care about exploring it. I don't need lore dumps and narrative cutscenes ALL the time, but I need SOMETHING to keep me going, even if it's just a little bit once in a while. If I get the sense that the game developers don't care about the story and have made the game under the assumption that the player doesn't care either, I very quickly check out and play something else. It feels like a cheap garbage game.
This exactly is why I love Yoko Taro. If you play one of his games you know there a shit ton of lore and background information that you can get invested in, but at the same time he’ll only give you what you need in order to get you from point A to point B and that’s it. Like, you don’t need to know there are actual living Dragons in the American continent when fighting the machines in NieR Automata but it’s nice to know that the world of NieR goes beyond what is shown on screen and MORE. You get emotional and invested in his stories and then there’s also this other thing that will blow your mind as well. This alone exactly why I get invested so much into the world of NieR and why I love stories in games so much
I mean if the guy really had to sneak the story in there and couldn't just go "you work on the gameplay I'll work on the story and let's get this game out there" then that sounds bad.
Isn't a known story that the only reason that Rosalina's book existing on Super Maro Galaxy was because Koizumi managed to pass by Miyamoto's eyes without making him notice?
Yes, and many times that deeper characterization appeared in a Nintendo game, like in Majora's Mask and Wind Waker, were because Miyamoto wasn't heavily involved. We know in Wind waker that he actively kept sticking his nose in saying that it wasn't too late to turn the game into a very traditional Zelda game, and so much love to those devs, they stuck to it. I do not think as long as Miyamoto is alive that we will see another game with toon link, or any game like that or Majora's Mask, where you feel actual emotion about the characters. I love Ocarina of Time, but I do not cry at the end the way I do with Wind Waker.
@@WasatchWind Wind Waker is your example of deeper characterization in a Nintendo game? What about Twilight Princess or BotW, then? Those games all featured much more robust and three-dimensional characterization than WW--was Miyamoto also hardly involved there?
Because he wasn't helping with the active development of the game? The game was already behind schedule so of course Miyamoto would be annoyed by that.
Miyamoto is an old school game designer, he helped shape what the games industry became especially after the crash (in the west). But as influential as he is I get the impression he's set in his ways as to what games can be (from his experience in the arcade era where story was limited), and maybe doesn't appreciate how games have evolved in the subsequent decades into a full-on art form where story can be as important as mechanics.
And he seems to think that the slightest bit of story is a terrible distraction - that if we give a character a back story, or introduce new main characters, it will completely derail the gameplay, which just feels so backwards to me.
@@magetsalive5162 I agree, he'd probably speak highly of them and spin something about offering an experience art cannot, but based on the way he develops and explains himself, I think he very much sees video games as just "more advanced toys".
@@magetsalive5162 It makes me really sad. Walt Disney was quite adamant from the beginning that animation could an amazing means of making art and entertainment, despite perception from some then, and since, that it is childish. The fact that one of the people most responsible for bringing video games into a place that narrative could exist greatly dislikes narrative makes me extremely sad.
I think it is misleading to say that no story is "old school" before Nintendo saved the video game industry, many game makers wanted to have stories but the technology was so weak and they neglected the actual gameplay that games were super boring or outright infuriating to play.
I do think TTYD’s story helps a young kid who’s never played an RPG before be motivated to learn, but it’s also good enough for a seasoned RPG vet to want to find the fastest way to blast through it.
RPGs having a good story should be a staple of the genre. It's a genre that requires a lot of reading via dialogue, battle commands, narrations, menus ect. It makes RPGs special because of how big and beefy they are. It can fill a game with emotion full of twists and turns. It can help you care about the characters, both the heroes and the villains, even the NPCs!
It doesn't even need to be story. But incredible dialogue and quirky, interesting characters that pulled a fresh twist on standard Mario NPCs and enemies was the strength of all three Mario RPG series (RPG, Paper, M&L) and now they're shells of their former selves because the creativity has been snuffed out of them. Hopefully the Super Mario RPG remake sells well enough in comparison that Nintendo sees that's what people want from these games.
It took me until the end of the video to realize you were speaking metaphorically. I kept staring at his hand to see if the puppet was falling apart or something.
Miyamoto just grew up and worked in a time when it was practically impossible to tell a story with the hardware limitations they had back then. In lieu of a story, game play had to be the top selling point. Unless it was a movie tie-in, then we came up with the stories in our minds. But with the stuff we have now, there is no reason why we can't have both awesome story and action.
Yes but there have been some moments where story can interfere with gameplay. For example in Batman Arkham Asylum, the final boss is Joker being buff, fans hated that boss fight. However the reason for Joker injected himself with Titan formula, in Arkham City the formula is killing Joker. Eventually Joker dies because of it, resulting in of the most shocking endings in gaming history, but that excuse Titian Joker from Arkham Asylum for not being a good boss fight????? It's clear that Miyamoto doesn't want to take risks
@@orangeslash1667 I've heard games like Nintendo's own Metroid Fusion and Grand Theft Auto 4 by Rockstar North have fallen into that category as well. Fusion is still my personal favorite game when it comes to the Metroid series, and personally speaking, I think the story does help, and it also makes Samus an interesting character, something the games that came before it either just couldn't, or didn't do. I know some will say there's environmental storytelling, but I think that kind of storytelling really hurt Metroid Prime, the first one anyway. It gave me no reason to care about what was going on with Tallon IV. The story was just, "Meta Ridley escaped to Tallon IV, go after him". As amazing as the game looked, the game needed more than that to make it even better, and it didn't. As for GTA 4, it's gotten plenty of flak as it is, but the story that game is not only well written, but a good amount of the characters are as well. The gameplay may not appeal to everyone, I think it just takes getting used to. Also, the two DLC expansions that came out after the main game, "The Lost and Damned" and "The Ballad of Gay Tony" had their own stories intertwining with certain events from the main game, since they all take place within the same timeframe. Felt kind of like playing the first Half Life, and then playing Opposing Force and Blue Shift afterwards (I know there's also Decay as another expansion to HL1), where you were seeing the same story through different perspectives. If the story was not there for GTA 4, and you were just playing as some lowly thug causing gang wars, and havoc everywhere you go like GTA 3, the game itself would get boring and tedious very quickly.
@@AkiraStrix94 Say what you will about Paper Mario, but Starfox has an excuse. Starfox Zero was released just before the end of the Wii U, changing the story just to appeal to fans would have caused even more delays. Remember Miyamoto doesn't rush games from a gamplay standpoint. He even admitted that Super Mario World was rushed despite the game's being save Peach.
@@orangeslash1667 Firstly, I didn't say anything relating to Paper Mario. Secondly, Star Fox Zero's story is almost exactly the same as Star Fox 64's. No, seriously, it really is just Star Fox 64 all over again in terms of its story, just like how Dragon Ball Z Kai was just Dragon Ball Z all over again, but without the filler. Sounds good on paper, but not in practice. I at least know the difference between a game being awful, and a game not being what fans wanted, Zero somehow managed to be both of those things. Not a good combo, if you ask me. Giving fans what they want in a game like that isn't a bad thing, but when you just repeat the same story, assuming no one's going to care, that's a major step backwards. If another Star Fox game gets made, it better not just be the same story, with Andross being the villain again, just move the damn story forward.
@@AkiraStrix94 like I said, before, changing the story of Starfox, would have caused more delays that is why Miyamoto doesn’t change the story at all. Otherwise it would’ve released in 2017, when the switch was already set to release. Games usually release at the very end of a console’s lifecycle usually don’t sell well. Conkers bad fur day, and Panzer Dragon saga are very big examples of this.
Valve is an example of a company which takes that gameplay-based approach, seeing what players like, and then weaves fascinating and thought-provoking stories out of them.
Valve is an example of a company that has cutscenes like everyone else, but they give you free camera control during the cutscenes, so instead of good cinematic camera work to enjoy while you're not playing, you're still not playing but it doesn't look interesting either. And people praise them for this for some reason. If I can't do anything while other characters are talking, then at least make a proper cutscene. Valve gets way too much credit. Yeah I said it.
@@mjc0961 It works well for a lot of players when they haven't played it too much & are still into the story but it does become a problem on repeat playthroughs. They should really start adding a way to skip the "not scenes" since they still basically are scenes. I prefer Valve's approach over something like Mario Sunshine where the scenes are boring as piss, noniteractive, *and* unskippable but a middle ground can exist.
@@mjc0961 It's not really about maintaining camera control. It's about maintaining the perspective. A lot of people find it more immersive when a game doesn't cut away from the first person perspective to show you a cinematic cutscene. It helps maintain the feeling that you're actually in the world, despite not having any control at that given moment. Maybe you don't feel that way, but that's personal preference. It has nothing to do with the caliber of Valve's writing or game design.
Kirby Planet Robobot is a perfect example, the Story of a megacorporation who invades and mecanizes entire planets is told through the changues in how the enemys looks and how they attack you.
@@Jadondigital Yes but there have been some moments where story can interfere with gameplay. For example in Batman Arkham Asylum, the final boss is Joker being buff, fans hated that boss fight. However the reason for Joker injected himself with Titan formula, in Arkham City the formula is killing Joker. Eventually Joker dies because of it, resulting in of the most shocking endings in gaming history, but that excuse Titian Joker from Arkham Asylum for not being a good boss fight????? It's clear that Miyamoto doesn't want to take risks
I give Miyamoto credit for his good ideas early in Nintendos gaming history, but he has a storied past of interfering for the worse with tons of projects. Rare ware, Mario rpg, starfox, ect.
apparently my wish for pokemon was a reality at some point until miyamoto came, the pokemon available would have just been randomized and unique for everyone and then miyamoto said people wouldn't understand.
Plus, how often have we all heard this story? "I pitched this game idea to Nintendo, but Shigeru Miyamoto hated it and rejected it instantly. Through some miracle, however, I eventually got through to him, and the game turned out to become a huge success/cult classic."
Not everyone likes the Mystery Dungeon gameplay, however, I recommended the Pokemon MD EoS to my friend, who played a bit of my started savefile (playthrough n°6 btw). She didnt like the gameplay, not hated it, but it was generally boring and tedious to her. However, because I insisted so much that she plays it, even if for the story, she bought it on Wii U eShop (RIP), and as she played it and got to more of the story, she said she played through the gameplay parts JUST to see the story advance. I think that, if the game had gotten Miyamoto'd, she wouldnt have gotten a wonderful experience. It's the same thing with Super Paper Mario, not everyone likes the gameplay, but the story is what unites both worlds
"main Pokémon games had" Black&White 1&2, Legends Arceus, Scarlet&Violet, Sun&Moon. That curse is gone now. Also, Pokémon Platinum is competent (not that Diamond&Pearl garbage), Sinnoh lore is always amazing. Someone will tell me that is blasphemy, but i don't like the gameplay of Pokémon for anything other than Legends Arceus and Scarlet&Violet.
Never knew Koizumi was THAT much of a legend. The balls to say such things about Zelda story and his attitude towards Miyamoto (12:25), especially in a japanese company.
People have recently been arguing that Miyamoto is not to blame for Paper Mario losing deep stories and original characters. While he may no longer be involved, as an influencial boss, his comments to Tanabe got the ball rolling. *"So when Miyamoto san, the father of Mario, asks us 'could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?', I think it’s only natural for us to give it our best shot."* This is a fact, no matter how much fans say otherwise.
I think the blame is less on Miyamoto saying that, but moreso that he tuned out after he said that. An interview with Paper Mario 64's director back in the day, said that they only used mainline Mario characters in the game, and that they wanted to take the simple route for the story. Miyamoto was a producer on the game, but stepped down to a Supervisor role for SPM and Sticker Star. Miyamoto's suggestions basically parrot what that PM64 interview said. It may not be entirely Tanabe's fault, but it's definitely part of it. Tanabe once said that, the main reason that Toads are the ONLY friendly NPC in the game, is because Toads are the "only friendly species in Mario." Which is just a baffling statement.
Makes me wonder, what would Miyamoto do to them if they didn't take his suggestions on board? Cancel the game? Fire them? How much power does Miyamoto have? Are people working in any kind of fear?
@@DaNintendude I'm still not fond of compromising that "Tanabe could also use other mainline characters like Wario and Piantas!" That still excuses the restriction against original characters/races, a restriction that should never have existed period. It would be nice if Tanabe could advocate for original characters and fight back against the IP team that never was strict until the moment Miyamoto stepped in, but he agrees with Miyamotos vision of minimalism by his comments.
@@mjc0961 Well, Miyamoto is the most senior employ in Nintendo, and considering the culture in Japan... yeah, I can imagine at least some of them are afraid of Miyamoto.
There's a UA-camr I follow named Ruby of Blue who put this whole situation best - "with great gameplay, you have a great game, but with a great story on top of that, you have an unforgettable experience." I myself believe that great gameplay, mechanics, etc. are the foundation for a good game and are what initially hook people in, but the story is what makes people stay.
@@lucario774pika The game becomes so much harder when to get to Rusty Bucket Bay💀💀. Other recommendations are Hat in Time, and the Shantae games, except for the console version of the Seven Sirens.
I always thought he just cared more about gameplay than story because he cared more about how the game actually felt to play and because he’s old school. I didn’t think he disliked story
There are many old school developers who have changed with the times, and there are many old school developers who can't handle more modern game design aspects the way Miyamoto can.
I think both gameplay and story are equally important. If a game has little story, but the gameplay is a lot of fun, then the game is worth playing. If the opposite is the case, then the story has to be very engaging for me to continue forward with it. However, a game that manages to balance a good story with good gameplay is an elite in my book. A good example is the Arkham games. That franchise managed to strike a balance in good storytelling and gameplay.
Miyamoto, Ron Swanson of Nintendo "Does obtaining the Master Sword actually represent the moment in a kids life, where it needs to choose wether it wants to be an adult, or remain a careless child?" "Nah, its just a ***** sword!"
I mean, a good story doesn't necessarily mean use of symbolism, it just means there needs to be characters and a reason why things are happening. Analyzing deeper whatever-whatever would take you out of the game.
@@lnsflare1 I mean, the things that happen have to be interesting, the characters have to be well written, the world it's building has to be intricate, and the stakes have to actually mean something. But the whole deal with this object or action symbolizing this theme or this other object or action is definitely more of a "old english poetry that they make you read in english class" sort of thing, than a "stuff I want to deal with while playing a video game" sort of thing. No english teachers are going to be analyzing video game cutscenes any time soon.
@@GamingWithCalvin1 I don’t get how a story having layers would take someone „out of a game“, it just adds to it for the people who notice. You‘re giving me vibes of a less radical Miyamoto ngl
Story and Gameplay can both be good I wish Miyamoto would put even a little bit more thought into letting us have them Super Paper Mario made me cry when I played it, and then I played it over and over again, I loved the game especially for the story and I would love to have more games like it
The whole point of appointing different people to different jobs is to do all of that in one game. You have someone handling the story, someone for the art direction, the music, the level design and maps, ect. Everyone plays a part in it. Why cut one of those out?
Majora's mask is the best representation of how story guided gameplay, it would never have been what it was without the story. And in botw, althogh gameplay was extraordinary, I, like many others, couldn't help but feel that the story was lacking, I just wanted to know more, be part of the story itself, rather than just have a series of jumbled flashbacks.
This is a very interesting discussion. I teach English to high school freshmen, and one thing we cover a lot in that year of class is how a good, effective story follows 5 stages-exposition (AKA the setup), rising action, climax, falling action, and resolution (AKA the closure, how things end). Games that Miyamoto has had the most direct involvement in almost ubiquitously don’t have that structure. You’re right that it’s more of a scenario than a story, usually just exposition in the first 30-second intro cutscene and then a climax at the end. Nothing in between or after gives it any weight or lasting substance-it’s all about the gameplay! The New Super Marios are probably the best example of this. Where is the rising action? The gameplay rises, but that doesn’t evoke the same thing a “story” in the traditional sense does (at least not for most people). Where’s the resolution? To use New Soup again, we don’t know anything about how Mario or Peach or Bowser FEEL in the ending, so there’s no sense of closure, just a dry knowledge that the game is done and a sense of accomplishment if the gameplay resonated with you. I love New Super Mario Bros, Mario Galaxy, the original Zelda-all with Miyamoto’s DNA-but it’s interesting to think about what that approach has come to lack.
Mario games don’t need story. They just don’t. They’re fun obstacle courses getting from point A to point B. If you want one, that’s what the movie is for.
Great breakdown. I think the biggest loss is replayability. Much as a book or movie with a great story gets you to pick it up again so you can savor the foreshadowing and find even more hints you missed the first time, lacking story in games just cripples the desire to replay it. There's nothing to glean, it's just mashing buttons in a particular order again because you liked a feedback loops of pretty colors and sounds when you did it Right. For children's entertainment, that might have value, but I firmly believe children can appreciate it beyond Nostalgia when they grow older too. The absense of story... Is quite sad when you think of the lost potential revenue and customer engagement, let alone the beautiful experiences that we can relate in our real lives, we're missing out.
That ideology only really works depending on the type of game you’re making. It’s if a game like a fighting game or a platformer, then yes, gameplay should ABSOLUTELY go first. But when you’re making a game like an RPG, then a good story or narrative can be just as important if not more.
Even in those gameplay - centric games, story can be the the thing that elevates it from a great game to a masterpiece. Majora's Mask, Links Awakening and Mario Galaxy are all prime examples.
@@CountMonsparkle good examples, but it's definitely a case by case scenario. Easiest example of this is any Donkey Kong Country game. Just imagine lengthy story segments between stages, it would get annoying pretty fast when all you want is the quick and snappy gameplay
Even in fighting games, if you look at all the enduring classics which still get sequels today, the characters will all have backstories, motives and reasons for why they are fighting. Even if it's all pretty barebones those backstories are what give the characters personality that both informs visual design and can even bleed over into how they have evolved mechanically.
Zelda and Metroid should lean a bit heavier in the story-based direction (being Nintendo's more "adult" franchises) while Donkey Kong and Mario should be lighter on the story
@@iamthemouse4483 then maybe it's about time. Both Country returns and Tropical freeze were well received, and there haven't been a Donkey Kong in 3D yet, wich might be really cool and bring some new mechanics
nobodys asking for a "grand" story in a platformer. we just want something thats even 1% more than "bad guy did a bad, go get him and save the day." thats what mario sunshine, galaxy 1, and oddysey did. and everyone loved it. thats what the 2000's sonic games did. and everyone loved it, even if it started getting hit or miss around 2005. thats what rayman did. and everyone loved it. thats what sonic frontiers did. and everyone loved it.
@@OmegaChase1002 THIS. it's so annoying when people completely disregard the value of rosalina's storybook because "mario games don't need a story" (and yes, I've seen people actually say that). of course mario games don't need a story! nobody's ever said that! but a game just having that 'something special' will automatically make a game better just by it being there. it elevates a game from simply being "really fun" to being the full package. an actual, unforgettable experience. it's just like arlo said: there's a difference between "gameplay first" and "gameplay ONLY". and most mario platformers (except the three you named) are gameplay ONLY. they usually have as polished mechanics as possible for a video game, but their stories, characters, artstyle, worlds, and miscellaneous aspects of the presentation are utterly neglected. they're as video gamey as possible, for better or worse. yes, gameplay is the most important aspect of a game, but the other aspects of a game shouldn't be neglected for the sake of the gameplay. and those are the games that, while typically very good and well made, I would rarely, if ever, recommend to other people. they simply don't leave any sort of impression. all things considered, galaxy 1 and odyssey are the only true must-play mario games, because they have an actual identity.
I can only imagine what it was like for Illumination working with him on the Mario movie. "But does the movie NEED a story? It's not too late to just have Mario wordlessly journeying for two hours before saving Peach from Bowser at the end!"
@Jermare He also said a *friggin roleplaying game with STORY* in the title doesn't need story, so I don't think I care for the difference that it's a movie.
I hope Koizumi managed to get something good into ToTK for us. I really liked the memories of Zelda and how she was and actual character instead of a princess mcguffin.
Koizumi said he doesn't want to work on Zelda anymore, and hasn't worked on Zelda since Majora's Mask. He even said he didn't want to work on Majora's Mask and only did because it needed him or else it wouldn't be finished in time.
The biggest problem isn’t that Miyamoto doesn’t want to put a lot of focus on storytelling in games, it’s that he doesn’t allow others to focus on storytelling when it comes his characters, even when he isn’t working on the game. Now I tend to desire more simple storytelling (and when I say simple, I don’t mean no vibrant world or strong characters dynamics, I just don’t need a deep dive into into their psyche, watching two friends playing around and teasing each other is more interesting to me than a character being wadded down by a dark and troubled past), all I want is a hero who represents a Paragon of Virtue trying to achieve a goal and a villain, representing Vice, seeking to stop the hero from succeeding, so I don’t care much for stories with “dark” or “mature” undertones in them. Despite this, if you ‘allowed’ someone to use your characters and they created a strong story that gardener an audience that’s comes to expect that level of storytelling, disproving of it is going to make you look bad.
@@HylianBean97 because Movies are a different form of entertainment. Their entire purpose is storytelling. Video game’s purpose, meanwhile, is storytelling AND gameplay.
@@teddyj9482 And Miyamoto was a producer for games like Paper Mario 64, PMTTYD, SPM, produced and superised games like Ocarina of Time which was quite focused on story("Miyamoto wanted to make a game that was cinematic yet distinguished from films", "Toru Osawa created the scenario for the game, based on a story idea by Miyamoto and Yoshiaki Koizumi."), allowed Rosalina's backstory in Super Mario Galaxy, more focus on story in Sunshine and Odyssey, he is behind Pikmin franchise which may not be focused primarily on the story, but still has quite a good plot. Also Yoshiaki Koizumi is his protege, though Koizumi prioritizes story more than Miyamoto. I don't know, it doesn't seem like he is against stories in videogames, just he sees gameplay as a bigger priority though he isn't against adding good story where it's possible without harming the gameplay.
@@sharkchannel61 I just personally speculate that Miyamoto doesn't think Mario games specifically need a strong story, given that he's worked on other franchises with a bigger emphasis on story/world building
Fire emblem engage is probably the best example of how really fun gameplay experience can be ruined by a horrible to non existent story. Every character was surface level anime tropes with no real substance to them besides maybe 2 characters and the plot was so easily predictable that I just told myself I spent 50 dollars on it so I have to finish it.
I think a big part of why stories are so important in games is because of the memories made through them. Like, when I remember my favorite games, I don't go "ooh, that platforming challenge was fantastic" or "I loved that one specific mechanic"--I remember stories and characters. Story shouldn't get in the way of gameplay, but without it you get relatively samey games like the New Super Mario Bros. series. Those games are fine, but they just kind of blend together.
@@leonidasvonsparta Fair. I guess people's brains work differently. Really, I think it'd be more accurate to say that the most memorable parts of games are when gameplay and story work together really well. Majora's Mask with the three-day time limit the world's built around, for example. (And I think my point about the NSMB games still stands.)
@@Nachtflut Does that mean that games are better off without story? Especially when gameplay can help engage the audience and even enhance the story in some cases? Take Hollow Knight's memory sequence in the abyss, for example, or ALL OF CELESTE.
Honestly it's why I stopped playing Mario and went to Sonic. Each game had a different scenario, a different story, or even if beat Eggman was always the same thing. What he does and how he does it is always different. Adding context to the adventure. Mario games are fun and play well. But it's the same story, Im not endeared to anyone because the story has them doing the same thing. I really should give the paper Mario series a closer look when the chance presents itself so I too can complain to Nintendo to give us Mother 3 and good story driven paper Mario games 😂
Story is so important to a game, not every game needs a story, but a story can amplify a game by extreme lengths. Games like Xenoblade, Fire Emblem I really like, but I would never have tried these series if they didn't have a story I could get invested in.
It's funny because I couldn't get into Fire Emblem because of the stories. Not because they were bad but because dialog scenes just feel like they drag on when I just want to get back to the otherwise fun gameplay.
I hate a lot of triple A games that have good plots and voice acting but the gameplay is super scripted and easy and doesn't allow any challenge, depth, creativity or options and the story is only really conveyed through cutscenes. Good gameplay to me = amount of interesting decisions per second(this varies depending on the type of game) Also slide through wall transitions to hide loading screens and scripted walking gameplay where they slow you down to listen to someone talk can go die. Metal Gear is amazing because even if the cutscenes are long they've always been well directed and the story is actually interesting and the gameplay can be both challenging and has a lot of variation and options. Metal Gear fully commits to it's cutscenes and story well still being amazing mechanically.
Story can encourage you to engage deeper with the gameplay. I can name several games I replay often, where I usually skip all the cutscenes to get to the gameplay...but I only love the gameplay so much because to experience the entire story I needed to gain a deeper understanding of it (i.e. fighting a superboss to get a secret ending). Edit: Also I can't help but wonder if Nintendo looks at games like Last of Us Part 2 or Mass Effect 3 that had aggressive fan backlash to their stories and say "Yeah we want nothing to do with that."
The flashbacks to Super Mario Galaxy 2 cut me to my core. Galaxy was my favorite Super Mario game in large part because of the unique atmosphere on the Observatory. Peach's Castle was kind of generic, and Delfino Plaza was fun and goofy, but the Comet Observatory was different. It had a wistful and lonely mood, complemented perfectly by the iconic "Family" theme playing in different variations. Obviously, Rosalina's storybook was great, but even without it, the atmosphere alone was still something special. It highlighted the loneliness of space, but made it more light and optimistic. The fact that the sequel went out of its way to make completely new assets just to throw all that out the window was an insult. There's a reason Rosalina is still a fan-favorite character present in every sports and party game and not purple knockoff Patrick. edit* and to add more, I said all of that without mentioning "story" a single time. I don't think it's just that Miyamoto hates story, I think he hates literally anything that isn't gameplay. I think every game developer and even the executives know that games need some kind of "special sauce", but for Miyamoto, if the sauce isn't in the gameplay, then he will actively fight against it as if it will detract from the gameplay.
Don't forget that, even in Galaxy 1, Rosalina was meant to be, by implication, from a different cycle of the universe in which Peach is her mother and also dead, but this was removed from the JP/NA releases by Miyamoto (we only know any of this from a screenshot from a French translation of the game).
Exactly why I think Galaxy 1 is far superior, Galaxy 2’s new mechanics are nothing compared to the beautiful and sad atmosphere of Galaxy 1. The reason Galaxy 1 stood out so much is that atmosphere, I mean just look at how iconic the soundtrack and visuals are. Galaxy 2 replaced the dark empty void of space and calm, quiet corners of the universe with sunny blue skies and upbeat, silly worlds.
Not sure whose fault or decision it is, but i really don't like how Rosalina has just become Peach-lite recently. The change in voice in the more recent games really doesn't help with these comparisons.
That, and just all the little ways Mario Galaxy went out of its way to immerse you in the experience. The difference between going into an observatory where a few galaxies can be seen in orbit, and launching yourself off into the distance to get there VS. Going to a steering wheel which takes you to a linear gameified level select screen with little personality is staggering. So many little touches and details and things sprinkled about made Mario Galaxy this whimsical adventure to a mysterious place, and Mario Galaxy 2 a video game with gravity mechanics.
Personally, I've always felt that the games industry and fans tend to give Miyamoto way too much credit than he actually deserves. I'm not saying that the man doesn't deserve his position, or the games he works aren't don't turn out great, but at the same time, there was always something about him that seems 'off' to me. And I feel like it's due to the way interviews frame him, they seem to always take what he says and spin it in a positive light. The most famous one I can think of is the "I don't wanna hire people who play games" Interview from Breath of the wild. Everyone I spoke to made it sound like he was preaching a gospel and to an extent, I got what he meant, but at the same time, a man who goes fishing or someone who goes hang gliding won't be able to transfer that experience into something that would be fun for everyone to play and the recent stream of popular indie games, made by gamers show that a lot of gamers do know how to make good games for those kinds of people. The point I'm attempting to swing round to, is I think the issue is that Miyamoto is a very controlling and opinionated person, he has a very specific idea on how things should work and should be done. And he lets a lot of that colour views on things. Like you said, Majora's mask is one of the most popular Legend of Zelda games, to the point it's debated if it is the best, along with classic Zelda and OOT. And despite it's overwhelming success, Miyamoto was quoted as saying he's never let Yoshiaki Koizumi do anything like that again. And just something else to note about Yoshiaki Koizumi he hasn't, if you got to his Wikipedia page, he hasn't been allowed to do anything story related or directorial since 2007. Since 2008 to 2021 he's only been a Producer or Supervisor. And the last story-related game he worked on was Super Mario Galaxy, where he snuck the storybook scene in and that, honestly, seems a little fishy to me.
And what are you doing exactly? Misrepresenting what he said, making things up about him, claiming Koizumi's PROMOTION to producer is bad. How you can take the Miyamoto quote as something bad is beyond me. Imagine wanting people to have more interests than playing games all day. Like, are you just some entitled self-righteousness brat or something?
That's because it IS fishy. Koizumi presented it to Miyamoto and he approved of it. I highly doubt something like this you could sneak past the literal creator of the series.
I just googled it and Koizumi worked on one of my favourite video games - Ever Oasis! It's all about the story in that game. Every NPC has a name, occupation, and personality. You can even bring them with you into dungeons! It's a bit of what's inspiring my own roguelike game I'm making.
Never forget when they wanted to make a majoras mask type twilight princess sequel but miyamoto shot it down and turned it into links crossbow training instead 😭
It's really sad to me. Twilight Princess is my favorite video game of all time and its story is a big reason why. I would've loved a sequel to it and from the sounds of it there were lots of great story ideas for it.
@@AkameGaKillfan777 Starfox Zero isn't meant to be like StarFox 64, it's more similar to Star Fox 1 and 2. Very linear and extremely difficult, which is why there's no wing damage. You can use the minus button to swap screens at any time. Miyamoto himself said that Zero was meant to have a big learning curve, that an hour or so is needed just to understand the controls. Good thing for training mode.
I play the games for their stories. It what get me playing them. I also like playing farming games and build games like dragon quest builders 2 where is has a story line but even after the story there is still stuff to do. At the end of the day every one has their way to play. For me I need a story.
I'm still sour about what he did to Paper Mario 3ds. Apparently it was going to have a story with fun characters like in the past but then Miyamoto stepped in and was like "nah, don't do that." I don't know for sure if it's a true story but I remember being excited to see a commercial for another Paper Mario game coming out, me getting it and playing it and then being like "...I'm bored..."
There was a commercial that had a Chain Chomp partner and other stuff before release. It still had the sticker gimmick but some core features from the classic games were still there. All of that was cut later.
i find it really funny that miyamoto actually even took it into consideration that people may not want story in paper mario. I mean the first game in the series was literally called "Mario's STORY" in Japan like what the hell did he think people were playing it for?
The dude probably thought people loved the gameplay so much and saw the story as an obstacle or something. Which makes the fact that PM hasn't had a consistent gameplay style since Super
I do wish we could get another game like Super Paper Mario, because honestly it still means so much to me. And it's because of the story that it does; that story, that game, was the first time I REALLY saw what a game could be. What it could mean to me emotionally (I may or may not have cried multiple times while playing but that's neither here nor there). Dimentio, to this day, is still one of if not my favourite Mario villains. Story is important, especially if you can connect to someone like that through it. At least that's what I think.
Super Mario RPG was far better than Super. Super should have been a different IP entirely it was a Romeo and Juliet story co-staring Mario and company. I won't even get into the shitty game play mechanics and forgettable characters. Super Paper Mario is the black sheep for a reason. It's good to have a story in a game imo but Super took it too far.
I think the entire fanbase would be totally fine if the Super Paper Mario gameplay became the new standard for the series if it also meant we would still get great stories.
Literally, this is I'm glad fanfiction exists because if Nintendo won't give us the stories we deserve, then we can through the power of writing. We will do what Nintenwon't.
Sometimes fanfiction writing can be garbage so it’s a 50/50 chance you’ll get something good the best ones are the ones that understand the world and the characters and doesn’t make them out of character
Honestly, they can hire one of those writers... And pay them a very reasonable sum, to create synopsis and dialogue for their stories. You don't have to hire GRRM or Brandon Sanderson, Jesus just get somebody who knows how to do it well.
Pay attention to his phrasing in the interview: he says he doesn't *mind* the story approach, but prefers the gameplay approach. Miyamoto may say he thinks that the story approach can work in certain games, but he also admitted in that interview through subtle phrasing that he prefers avoiding story in games he's a part of beyond the premise (or as Arlo puts on blast, he hates story in his games).
Agreed. Miyamoto says he doesn't hate the story approach--it's just not for him. I think Arlo is saying Miyamoto goes much further than "not hating" the story approach by actively removing it from Nintendo games. Sure, he may be ok with non-Nintendo games having story, but first party Nintendo games better not have any of that plot in it.
I definitely need games to have really fun gameplay loops for me to want to play them, but what takes a game I like and turns it into one of my favorites? Story and characters. My 3 favorites are Fire Emblem Three Houses, Persona 5 Royal, and Yakuza 0. What do they all have in common? Really fun gameplay mechanics AND incredible stories with great characters. The story just elevates the experience to degree that a pure gameplay focused game can’t for me.
Honestly I never even knew about Koizumi's impact, and having learned about it consider me radicalized. The more I hear about Miyamoto's whims and the impact they have, as well as what others have been doing when they're able to go around Miyamoto, the more I think it's time he ultimately stepped away. We should never forget his contributions, but the medium has clearly evolved past him.
I mean, without Miyamoto, we'd have Mario's Paint Attack instead of Splatoon. I feel people are really overextending what little info we do have and not critically analyzing how actual game development works. There's like 30+ more people on the team than just Miyamoto, who was busy with running EAD at the time. Even then, a Paper Mario game can work with little story, that's how Color Splash iterates on the formula and fixes most of the issues with Sticker Star. We can look at the larger sign of failure like Vanpool being brought on at the 11th hour to fix the game. It's honestly more the gameplay being incredibly bland that really kills Sticker Star. The bland story with virtually no characters just makes it insufferable.
@@PIKMINROCK1 Miyamoto is all about Mario and doesn't want a story in Mario's game. He didn't even like Luigi that much at first. In fact, Miyamoto wants to erase Daisy. Yikes!
@@Hauntaku but he's not all about Mario. Tezuka is more all about Mario if we referring to Nintendo executives. Miyamoto is every internal Nintendo IP. That kind of breadth means he's not actually involved in most beyond the milestones.
@@ausgod538 The Iwata Asks for Splatoon says that he "flipped the teatable" when they presented an early demo of the game and suggested they use Mario characters. Because as his job of head of EAD, he supervised every internal Nintendo game.
The line between Miyamoto's anti-story mandate and what the utter lack of it can do for a series is perfectly exemplified by KIRBY. Anyone who played through the Dark Matter Trilogy of games would find themselves intrigued and disturbed by the mystery of what Dark Matter and 0 even were, and from Canvas Curse onward, when Shinya Kumazaki took over, it's been nothing but nonstop lore building with every game since, and not once has it ever harmed the actual gameplay, and the times they come crashing together, like with Morpho Knight or the Soul bosses or the final bosses of Planet Robobot and Star Allies, it results in utter terror and excitement within any player who has been keeping up with the lore, which only serves to enhance those boss fights the same way the story would in an RPG. Zelda and Metroid, too, benefit SO so much from their decades of lore and story, the fact that Ganon is the exact same dude in every game, progressively warped and twisted with each passing era and defeat, is such an INSANE aspect of the Zelda series, it adds so much depth to a character that would've otherwise stayed as some generic villain or brutish pig monster. And the ongoing storyline of the Metroid series continuously builds upon Samus as this heroic figure, as she saves worlds and grows stronger, it's a lot like shonen series, she's gone from some helpless girl who could do nothing but watch every human life she ever knew get slaughtered in front of her, to a 3 way genetic hybrid bioweapon capable of killing entire armies with a raise of her hand, draining them of their very life essence.
This is why it’s good to have your Miyamoto’s and Koizumi’s in a gaming company - ala Nintendo. You don’t want yes men that greenlight everything, but you also need people to bend the rules and change the norm sometimes.
You have narrative-driven games, gameplay-driven games, and varying degrees of both. Miyamoto is an artisan of gameplay. He understands how to create a game that is fun, because he understands what makes gameplay fun. But he doesn't understand that games can be a vessel to tell a story, that some games are more story than gameplay and that that isn't a bad thing.
If a video game is driven primarily by its story or narrative over interesting or refined gameplay, you might as well just make a movie or a book at that point.
I don't think he understands what makes video games fun actually because I was utterly bored by Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 and quit the franchise. The same story and villain got so insulting by that point that it actually effected the gameplay - I was able to ignore the problem for a while but by the time those games rolled in, boy... I really felt the staleness.
miyamoto is a paradoxical guy. on one hand, he's a revolutionary in the video game space. his legacy in gaming is clearly seen. on the other hand, he's sort of close minded when it comes to things like this. i guess he's a product of his time, back when these stories couldn't be shown in game. gameplay had to be prioritized because it's what games needed to be compelling
He developed a mindset that let him thrive in the conditions. It's very understandable and with the results it produced admirable. I wish he'd been more open to story as the technology developed, but thankfully we had other people Koizumi and possibly Aonuma who were more invested in that side of things. It all worked out pretty well for the most part.
I mean, games like Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger still managed to be revolutionary decades ago... He's not stuck in the 90s, he's kinda stuck in a time before that...
For me, an engaging story is the difference between a merely decent game, and a great game. It can make a game so much more fun. And as a wise man once said, "If it's not fun, why bother?"
What would a complex story add to a mainline Mario or Zelda game ? Who want to be interrupted by useless dialogue and cinematic in those kind of game ? I really don't get it. Those kind of games should have a rich world but a simple narrative: show not tell. The last thing that I want for Mario/Zelda is to follow the path of Sonic games with their non-sensical "story".
@@sacha9593 The Mario argument has some merit, but the Zelda one does not. Zelda is a series of games with a lot of complex stories. Every single main line 3D Zelda before BotW had a story driving the gameplay forward, and it got bigger and grander with each game. So I don't understand what you mean by Zelda having a simple narrative. The early 2D games maybe, but not all of them like your arguing.
@@sacha9593 Complex story is not what was asked. A story can be basic, but the goal is to generate intrigue in its subjects, which is a net positive. For example, Rosalina's storybook in SMG is not complex, but it certainly increases intrigue in the character.
@@sacha9593 Nobody asked for a complex story. I'm not out here looking for Metal Gear Solid out of Nintendo. You ask for "show not tell" which honestly would be great compared to the Miyamoto style "don't show and don't tell" we so often get now
I mean, Miyamoto comes from the genesis of video games when "Guy defeats bad guy and rescue princess" was more than enough history, but we've come so far now, certainly is not enough anymore, and nothing compares to games that can deliver on both gameplay and story
@@Vaquix000 Miyamoto has gone away; he's been away for several years now. He's said many times in more recent years that he wants these franchises to last long after he's gone, so he's taken a step back and tries to encourage the newer generations of developers. His role in Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey essentially amounted to only offering advice when asked and only occasionally contributing some ideas of his own; never blocking or cutting anything.
I'm always impressed by Arlo's commitment to speak the truth regardless of the peer bandwagon pressure, while at the same time, balancing being respectful and placing his critique in the grand scheme. Humble yet bravely honest!
@@rareosts5752 1) by your logic, what you're just doing is whining. 2) by the definition of biased, Arlo gave his evidences, while you didn't (and just whined), so you're biased 3) If someone brings evidences, then it isn't whining, therefore Arlo was comitted to truth. 4) I don't believe in "whining is not truth" in the first place. The W-word shifts meaning to exclude whatever the 2nd whiner wants to as truth, without having to face the argument of the 1st whiner.
wow i never knew this about the galaxy games. this really helps provide context for what is so unappealing to galaxy 2 for me compared to how much i love 1
being a game developer, it *can* often be surprisingly hard to get gameplay and story to gel together if you really care about giving them both weight. I've struggled a lot with getting the two to work together when I have strong ideas about what I want both to be like. in those situations, one has to take priority, and it can be a really hard decision. in my experience, it's always significantly easier to lead with one and let the other follow. the most charitable way I can interpret Miyamoto's total avoidance of story is to imagine that he does it to avoid arguments among the teams he's worked with. if they hit one of those crossroads between gameplay and story, they know which road to take. no need to spend time arguing or he's just a weirdo. who knows!
that said, it seems like basically everyone agrees that, if anything, paper mario should let story lead and gameplay follow. anyone's guess why he thought they should do the opposite
100 percent agree with this. As potential customer, I prefer gameplay now that I am older. I would love a great story with great gameplay but the reality is that it is very difficult to do and at the end of the day if a game plays badly then one can not experience the story no matter how good the story may be.
@@birdlegscass There's the thing if Miyamoto ever wrote a story, I would suffer from Other M disorder because if your not a great writer what's the point????
@@colbyboucher6391 it depends on the type of game. single player games without story tend to become rather boring unless they’re extremely gameplay oriented. I don’t want to go through temples and kill monsters for no reason, y’know? I want to know why I’m doing it. I could go into detail on games that do this well but I’m working on not mentioning my profile picture every 8 seconds
@@boxman5381 I wish you guys used real arguments, Ocarina of Time was a story-focused game did the game stop every five seconds? Nope, just like most story driven games. Albion is a MMO that don't even have story and is growing for a reason some times we just want to see number go up and nothing wrong with that and I say that as a person that loves story-driven games but still play Albion, just say "I find myself enjoying only gameplay focus games because is I prefer them" and just that is enough argument we all have different tastes you don't need to lie why you dislike other games just say is not for you.
12:35 I'm sorry Arlo but this is *BLATANT MISINFORMATION.* Koizumi did not "Sneak it into the game against Miyamoto's wishes." He worked on the storybook in secret, and presented it to Miyamoto when it was fully completed. Miyamoto was surprised he went through all the effort, and let him include it in the game. Likely because he saw the finished product, and that it was important to Koizumi. And while Miyamoto didn't want story to be in Galaxy 2, Koizumi _actually agreed_ early on that the game didn't need a story. It seems Koizumi understood that Galaxy 2 didn't need a story, and that they should put all focus into gameplay. This is why the game is so much faster and more streamlined. There's still lore in the game, and new information, but the story is simple and to the point, so people who already played the first game don't have to sit through more story.
I don't believe you one bit. Miyamoto was involved in Super Mario RPG, the first two Paper Mario games, and Super Mario Galaxy which have stories that Mario fans loved. He also originally wanted to be a manga artist before entering the video game world and we all know mangas are story driven.
@@mgmboy3778 The Star Fox situation Is a lot more complicated than Simply Miyamoto being to Blame. Star Fox was essentially dead until they did the 3DS remake of Star Fox 64, in order to garner interest in a new game. It’s actually a miracle that we even got Star Fox Zero to begin with because Miyamoto tried to push for it. As divisive as it was, as least we got it (and it’s not a bad game either, though perhaps the ones fans were hoping for). And There was deeper narrative in those first 5 games and even Zero as well (even if it’s just a retelling of the same story), so I wouldn’t use that as a knock against Miyamoto either.
I think slowly but surely Nintendo will adapt. They will give us those beloved Nintendo gaming vibes that iconic is for, with further implementation of the story as new staff bring new life to Nintendo eventually. However it is important to remember that Nintendo is a Japanese company and Japan very much seems like a society where seniority rules the day.
You also have to think about how old Miyamoto is. When he was first designing games, arcades were the vanguard of gaming, and back then the majority of players didn't really care about stories. Think about Pac-Man, for instance. If you were trying to make an arcade game, you generally didn't have time to tell a story, as your goal was to get the player interested (quickly), then get them into game play as quickly as possible to drain more money out of them. That was the prevailing mindset during Miyamoto's formative years. Look at some of his earliest games: Donkey Kong has an excuse plot. So does Super Mario Bros. And those were both massively successful, primarily based on their innovative game play. Once something like that is ingrained in you, it's hard to open your mind beyond it.
Thing with that is, while it's understandable, it has also been 40 years since arcades were the preferred platform for gaming. It's 2023 now, he's had a long time to develop games outside that paradigm
Even in the classic arcade days, games like Pac-Man specifically had intermission screens where the titular character and the ghosts would get up to hijinks. It was perhaps a very primitive bare bones form of storytelling, more akin to other short form media like the old Loonytoons, but I would still contend that it counts as at least an attempt at providing entertainment outside of purely mechanical gameplay.
Yet in those games the story was what made them successful. The first two arcade games had you rescue Pauline and Peach... both of which used story elements to bait and push the player to continue. It made them worth touching even if the game didn't look super fun and finishing once you start.
Just wanna say your content is super helpful for me. Very stressed out these days with school/job search, etc etc. Normally I'd listen to podcasts or something but your content is one of the first things I look for cuz it's just fun, thoughtful, but not contrroversial or stressful. Great way to refresh my brain a bit.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think Koizumi brings a certain charm to Nintendo games that makes them so much more enjoyable. I beat Super Mario Galaxy(though I never discovered Luigi as a kid), but I barely got anywhere in Galaxy 2. I always wondered why, but knowing the effort put into the Storybook was excluded from the sequel explains so much.
Miyamoto’s attitude towards stories was always so bizzare. Usually if someone doesn’t like stories in video games, it’s mainly because they’re too obtrusive and get in the way of the actual gameplay (i.e long cutscenes, convoluted lore, etc). But the thing is, in the cases of Super Mario Galaxy and Link’s Awakening, the added story hardly ever interferes with the actual game. And it’s kinda notable that he never really gives an opinion about the ACTUAL story content itself. If he said something like “I don’t like the Rosalina backstory because it’s too sad and depressing for a Mario game” that would make some kind of sense. But he never gives an opinion like that because for him, Rosalina having a backstory at all is the main issue. My personal theory is that Miyamoto has views video games as “toys” as opposed to creative pieces of media, which makes sense considering that when he worked at Nintendo when they were essentially a toy company. For him, a “story” is just the basic context and scenario you give your game to lend it some identity, like CandyLand or Monopoly. And considering how open he is about the fact that he literally doesn’t play any or even acknowledge any modern video games, I’m willing to bet he’s kept the same mindset towards stories since the NES days.
God I love that game! I wish people weren't giving it so much backlash and shit like that. The people who're like "It'S nOt LiKe TtYd!!" then they're the ones who made Sticker Star exist in the first place. Sometimes butterfly effects can make things happen that you don't want if you don't keep your mouth shut.
When I think of story in nintendo games, I always think of the parts that hit most, and either made me cry, or put me on the verge of tears. Scarlet's letter from Bobbery, cried hard on that. Watching as you failed to save a world in super Mario, where you were to fight 100 fights, but part way through even the challengers realized that oh crap, we need to let them go, and then they ALL DIE. Theres nothing you can do to save them, but watch as their world gets deleted. Holy crap, walking through that destroyed dimension, amazing story telling I've never seen in a video game before where you fail so hard. It all turns out better in the end but that was amazing. Majora's mask, the helplessness. Oh my god the helplessness, Cremia actually getting her sister drunk so she would feel the fires of the moon crashing into the world. If you deliver the letter and screw up the quest to retrieve the couple's mask, Anju will stay at the inn to her death waiting for her lover, and if she doesn't she'll wait for death to come at Romani Ranch. Metroid prime 3, the environmental story telling of Phaaze, where there isn't a lot unless you actually look at the environment, for instance the chamber of infant leviathan seed. If you look at the floor and the walls, you can see the machines used by Metroid prime in the boss fight of the original game everywhere. There's so much good in the story, so much I remember. I remember a lot of super Mario galaxy 2 even without a story. It COMPLIMENTS the gameplay. But paper Mario, an RPG tells a story. Super paper Mario had IMO basic and crap gameplay I still remember the story, and I still go back to play through that story. I haven't touched sticker star since I beat it. I've never touched color splash, nor origami king because the story in those are nonexistent or meh from what I've read. Take Halo 4, different company different studio. It had shit gameplay, if you play above normal difficulty its a slog boring. Mindly fun on normal difficulty or below. I still remember the story though, it was very impactful in what it meant for the series as a whole. It's regarded as a pretty good story, and the only reason to play the campaign, unlike the previous entries that are all regarded as fun and memorable for both gameplay and story. THen halo 5 was just crap, crap story unless you read all the books and comics, crap gameplay bugged beyond belief. Only good for competitive multiplayer. When you don't have a story, then you only have two legs left to stand on, gameplay and your IP. Pokemon is always gonna sell because they got an IP. Mario is always gonna sell because they got an IP. Metroid ain't, its saving grace in return of samus and dread was awesome gameplay and an amazing story told primarily through subtext, on par with that of Metroid Prime. Now we are seeing Metroid finally make a comeback to stand up to other Nintendo giants for the first time since Metroid Prime 3, over a decade ago.
Just look at Fire Emblem with it's usually enjoyable story and bland gameplay. The story is fine and the gameplay is passable. It may not do well, but the fans are ravenous for more every year!
I think it would've been better if you had included links to these interviews that you're pulling from (or at least, tell us what interview it is so we can try to search for it ourselves). Not from a place of distrust or anything, I love you Arlo, but more from a place of supporting full transparency.
Thing is, most of those “statements” made by Miyamoto are actually misunderstandings and misconceptions. This narrative of “Miyamoto doesn’t like story and goes after anyone that does” has been debunked before.
After doing a little digging, I found out that Club Nintendo surveys--where the "less than 1% liked the story" statistic was ripped from--were just quick little questions that people would answer as fast as possible to earn rewards points. Many, MANY people didn't bother answering properly at all, leading to skewed results, particularly favoring the first answer in any multiple choice situation. *tl;dr If the question was something like "What was your favorite part of SPM" and plot wasn't the first option, then it wouldn't have stood a chance. Surely Miyamoto would have known this. It smells like an excuse to me.*
As someone who grew up during those old Club Nintendo days, I can anecdotally say that yes I was one of those kids who would answer those questions as fast as possible for my points. I did put some thoughts in some of the questions but overall I do remember the survey questions being incredibly basic and bland. Needless to say, I didn't have Super Paper Mario during this period and bought it used sometime after the old system was discontinued so I couldn't have done the survey for that game.
PINNED COMMENT YOU'RE WELCOME
Head to www.squarespace.com/arlo to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code "arlo"
What's up dude.
How’d you comment 7 days ago?
Hi past Arlo
@@KiloCreates0_0 Privated the video, probably
7 da-
WTF?!
Mario games are a prime example of a game that really *should* be gameplay first to a big degree, and yet everybody almost universally loved Rosalina's storybook. Just a little bit of story focus can go a long way towards helping players engage with a game emotionally beyond just thinking "hey jumping around is pretty fun."
It's insulting. It's like he still thinks he's making video games for six to eight year olds Only. Actually six year olds like stories anyway, the games are too dumb for even that age group.
What makes his interference in the Galaxy games so aggravating is a the story book was a BACKGROUND thing. I could sympathize somewhat if Miyamoto was just opposed to too many long cutscenes and dialogue exchanges. That works fine or even better for some games.
But Rosalina’s storybook was a side element that you could engage with at your own leisure and didn’t even get in the way of enjoying the main game if you missed it. The fact he disliked that and made sure nothing like it was in SMG2 shows that he is not just indifferent to story but actually dislikes it.
Gamers thinking that gameplay and story can't go along and it's just a one side of the coin thing is very depressing.
Great Cait “Mario games” The 3D games and some sports spinoffs, sure, but the RPGs are a different story.
@@Zelink108 That's kinda the thing though, the RPGs are such a massively different beast that I'm hard pressed to even calll them "Mario" games so much as RPGs with a Mario skin.
Don't get me wrong, I love the RPGs but you say "Mario", the likes of NEW Super Mario Bros or Galaxy comes to mind a lot sooner than Superstar Saga.
God bless Koizumi for Link’s Awakening, and wanting to give Link a backstory
Link's Awakening is hands down my favorite Zelda game for that mindfuck of an ending alone. Zelda games deserve more of that
@@pupperjackcheese Do you know if the remake from 2019 kept the story in?
@@Ren-0 I dont own a Switch, I only played the original. But I hope so!
He always seems to be involved in my fave Nintendo games.
The strp down in my enjoyment from Galaxy 1 to 2 was immense. I loved how dramatic Galaxy got by the end and looked forward to a continuation. Instead we got a reboot.
he link therefore he am
I didn't know Koizumi was such an unsung hero.
Also, I love spiteful Arlo. He does the thing while still being completely polite.
I feel like everyone who got treated badly by Nintendo has to articulate their frustration in a polite manner or else people are gonna think they're worthy of dismissal.
I just don't know how people expect someone who has every right to be angry to articulate their anger like they're a lying sociopath.
Of course you're hurt, you're gonna call it out as it is... A ripp off. A legally possible but highly unethical business practice.
Arlo has to be polite because he will be extremely opposed by Nintendo.
But you guys don't have to be, you're paying them ..
They haven't given you free stuff for one, and you don't run channels where you have to be sponsored by them in order to make a living.
Call 'em out. You don't owe them anything 😏
@@samf.s.7731 On the one hand, you can get review copies of games for free so you don't have to pay for something you may not like. On the other, you can say whatever you want and get punished for it, even if what you're saying is completely harmless and true.
@@samf.s.7731 Arlo was dropped from Nintendo’s brand ambassador program back in 2020, along with a lot of others. I don’t think he gets free review copies anymore, not from Nintendo at least. Some third-party game companies still give him review copies on occasion though.
How can you be polite while spiteful?
Ask a person from the US south. "Oh bless your heart".
Story: “You despise me, don’t you?”
Miyamoto: “If I gave you any thought I probably would.”
That's too bad, because the story is the best part in my opinion. A good story makes almost any game so much more fun. And as a wise man once said, "If it's not fun, why bother."
@@DanGamingFan2406 Even games like Shovel Knight and it's other campaigns were solid from a gameplay perspective, but the game had fun with itself and the story and it frames the whole thing together nicely and characters have character. If you remove all the character and framing from the game, you'd have just another generic platformer, it might even be a good one, but it wouldn't be special.
Imagine if Star Fox didn't have any characters saying anything at all. Would any one remember it other than an oddity of the time?
@@DanGamingFan2406 gameplay is king
@@kotzer71 and so is story, so why not have both?
@Will Br gamer story is not king in this medium gameplay should always come first a good story is just a bonus
A good story without gameplay is just a movie a gameplay without any story is still a game
The problem with the Paper Mario Survey is that it only asked
"What's your most important feature?"
Of course, I said Gameplay, as terrible gameplay won't be saved by a good story. BUT, it failed to take into account that one might find gameplay most important, and story very high on the list.
It's like asking what's more important in Smash. Gameplay or characters? I'd say gameplay, which is why I eventually stopped playing Brawl. But I'm still not gonna buy a Smash game that lacks most of my favorite characters, which is why I completely skipped Smash 4.
And then none of that matters anyway if the game is a broken mess to the point that it's just frustrating to play, which is why I never would've played Rivals of Aether without mods. In the end, I stick with Rivals of Aether because unlike modern devs, modders will actually give me what I want. Point is you can't just focus on one or two things & expect to get a good game out of it.
@D YellowMadness I can agree. For Smash, I highly value mechanics, so I play Project M. Sure, I'd love to play characters like Terry, but I got PMEX Remix for that.
Still, games are multifaceted, and one thing I realized while working on Project M is that while I wanted a good competitive game, I also learned that it was important to add more to the package for it to feel more complete.
Correct me if i am wrong but the survey also only asked if you cared about the story of the game or not, right?
Thats definitely not the same as asking if someone cares about stories IN GENERAL.
@walaceandrade4046 Yeah, but as Chuggaaconroy mentioned in his Sticking It to Sticker Star videos, the main problem with the survey was it didn't require participants to say if they played the game or not. Most unfortunately didn't and their ignorance colored the results.
"terrible gameplay won't be saved by a good story"
...he said, as though Nier had never existed.
I would literally kill to watch a rant video about Koizumi. That man is effectively the lifeblood of the company
Damn right
Thank you magic ice cube man.
Yep
Maybe he could bother the Zelda team with the story, lord knows totk and botw didn’t deliver, fuji made ONE good story with SS and he can’t seem to replicate the same quality.
@@pubertdefrog What about TP, WW, MM and OoT?
Koizumi really deserves more credit. He's brilliant!
He definitely gets too much hate.
@@DanGamingFan2406Too much hate? I've seen absolutely nothing but love for Koizumi. It's just that a lot of people don't know who he is
Koizumi should get the renown that Miyamoto does and vice versa
@@fakename6498 Honestly Miyamoto could vanish for all I care, wish Koizumi replaced him.
@@Vaquix000 Alright I wouldn't go _that_ far
This made me really like Koizumi much more. He was the reason for some really interesting games that have really stood the test of time. Miyamoto does have a great legacy, but he also has a track record of being petty, spiteful and stubborn as a mule. Koizumi with more control would be an interesting twist.
I had no idea he was the one who put the story into Link's Awakening. Super Mario Galaxy 2 was lesser than Super Mario Galaxy in many ways as well, and story was definitely one of them. I like Koizumi a lot now.
He should be the next one to take over Nintendo.
I choose Mario 64 over Mario Odyssey, but it's not about who of Miyamoto or Koizumi is right.
They are complementary, focusing too much on the story and you have a bad game, but story can add flavour.
@@mjc0961 It’s pretty much the only way Galaxy 1 can be considered better, I think Galaxy 2 is overall better, more power-Ups and dinner level design. The empty ass hub world from Galaxy can’t really be counted as something important imho
If anyone in the industry deserves to be stubborn though, its Miyamoto.
But shelving creativity in any capacity is an interesting approach to game design
Honestly, thank you for being petty because it makes me realize how incredible Koizumi's contributions to the company have been
I mean, look at Kirby. There's usually very little story, leaving it all crammed in at the end, or in pause menu stuff, but when it gets rolling HOO BOY!! I am never gonna forget Forgotten Land's climax, and Susie and Haltmann are some of my favorite characters in the series, starring in my favorite Kirby game.
A game doesn't need to be story heavy to be memorable, but just the right amount makes it magical.
Magolor's story and even the Kirby Crystal Shard story is amazing!
Kirby games take you on an ADVENTURE thanks to their narratives and world-building, and it’s one of the many reasons it will be my preferred platformer series compared to Mario.
EDIT: For the record, I’m not saying that Mario needs to start bringing in a bunch of lore, it’s just a matter of taste.
@@Hauntaku it also helps Kirby as dumb as it sounds has a personality. He is kind, likes to eat, have fun, make friends, etc. Super simple but he is a person. Mario has literally nothing on the mainline games other than save X. I really wish they give him a little more.
@@Plasmacat1 which is why I’m really excited for the Mario movie because he has to have an actual personality to be a compelling character
I basically agree with all of this. There need not be a dichotomy of Story vs Gameplay, because unless you are making a basic ass arcade game, even just a little story to grab onto is important. It doesn't have to be Shakespeare! It can be as basic as you like. All I'm asking for is just SOMETHING to grab onto. Look at my two favorite franchises, Mega Man and Castlevania. Mega Man games, specifically the Classic series, don't typically have much story. They do, however, have just enough to have some character exploration and depth. Castlevania was largely story agnostic for a while, but creators took established lore and expanded upon it, giving one of the more heartbreaking origin stories of one of the most iconic weapons in video game history. These examples are not high art, but they give weight and importance to their specific canons, giving validation to those paying attention to the flavor text and world building.
To bring it to Kirby, even without digging into deep Holy lore, Kirby is largely gameplay, but with enough story so that you can grab onto its world and characters, and care when they fall to the forces of darkness or stand stalwart against them. Even laugh at how many times our hero has stumbled face first into apocalyptic danger with a smile to his friends and determination to his enemies. Hell, using the Link's awakening example, could you fathom in a post Link to the Past world, a LoZ game WITHOUT a story foundation? How many beloved characters, how much emotional weight would be just LOST?
I find Miyamoto such an interesting figure. On the one hand, he is absolutely one of the smartest game designers in history. On the other hand, he has such odd and awkward ideas about what the player actually values, and that usually gets in the way of Nintendo creating a larger variety of games. F-Zero being shot down repeatedly is a great example. A new and expansive narrative would do a sequel wonders. New graphical fidelity, track complexity, online multiplayer, a fully functional track maker, immensely intense physics etc, would do WONDERS to make a new title in the series a knock out hit. But because Japanese sales of GX were lower than expected and he has no new ideas on how to add something radical to the game, the game doesn’t get made, even if another team pitches it to him.
because f-zero is not a fucking fun game. just another shovelware racing game. glad its dead.
It’s weird, because it’s like half of the time he’s a genius when it comes to game design, but in the same breath is absolutely awful at it.
He's very much part of the old-school Nintendo as a toy company mindset.
This guy’s a complete and utter enigma sometimes; I swear.
And a bit of a grump.
@@BradfortBottlenose Part of it is his experience as an actual lead designer ended with Mario 64. And his experience made him grumpy.
He was planning on making Mario more "mature", and then he basically never got to fully control a Mario game ever again
More concerning than Miyamoto shutting down stories in games (for me at least) is the possibility that they've shut down actual games because they assumed people wouldn't like them. We've recently been hearing that Nintendo have been taken by surprise at the success of Metroid Prime Remastered; what if those shutdown Retro games actually might have been beloved by the community but Nintendo cancelled them because they couldn't see/understand the potential? 😢
That has to be a joke, right? Like, that happens all the time and isn't even a media-only thing.
Retro Studios isn't all that far off from dying considering the massive uncertainty about Metroid Prime 4.
Mother 3 not being localized I feel shows Nintendo not wanting deep stories in most of their games.
Retro's issues probably had more to do with the relatively low performance of Metroid Prime games compared to their critical praise.
@@Good100 Your right on that matter considering their inability to replicate The success of the first Metroid Prime game.
Remember that 1 chapter from Paper Mario TTYD where Mario is on a train and uncovering mysteries for basically the whole thing, with no gameplay and mostly just storytelling? That was such a fun chapter!
It's terrible for repeat playthroughs though, imo.
It goes from one of the most memorable chapters in the game, to a pretty boring one.
Wish there were ways to mix up the order of events in repeated playthroughs. Or skip to the end if you know something specific revealed later in the chapter.
@@DaNintendude Yeah, I agree. It is bad for repeat playthroughs. But I don't replay the game enough to where it bothers me. I mean, I could read a good story again if I enjoyed it enough the first time. Plus, it's a very memorable chapter with some very memorable characters! I will certainly take that over anything from these more recent games.
I do like the idea of having multiple routes in a Paper Mario story. I'd love to see that in a Paper Mario chapter one day! Or... I would say that if the series still stuck to its roots to this day.
Boggly Woods is my life
I honestly never cared much for that part of Chapter 6... it's tedious on repeat playthroughs and I hate Riverside Station. I thought the Sunset Express from Color Splash was way more fun.
@@DaNintendude The over the top sound every time the penguin says something wildly unfunny sure didn't help. I didn't mind the first time but on repeat playthroughs, that really took a hammer to my already dwindling patience.
Let me tell you, ever since Koizumi came on the scene as a main figure behind the Switch, I have wished we saw more of him! Mans reminds me of the skit days from Reggie and Iwata. Just seems to have a plan that resonates and seems to be down to do fun things for directs and such. Learning that he is a driving force behind the stories on many of my favorite games is a surprise, but a welcome one to be sure!
Maybe you should research about koizumi and other developers instead of thinking a company makes everything
@@ausgod538 Kind of unnecessarily rude
He's also nice to look at. 😊
Koizumi is a genius. Look up the man's track record. HD Rumble and the Switch design is just his most recent inventions. He also created Z targeting in Ocarina of Time.
@@MikeMohamedTo be fair Iwata had a big hand in the Switch design and HD rumble is just haptic feedback with a fancy name. Both Sony and Nintendo use it in their 9th gen controllers Koizumi didn't invent that, but Koizumi is great. Miyamoto should just focus on movies and let him fully take the creative reigns.
A funny thing about the whole "Surveys said Paper Mario players don't like story" thing, and this was brought up by Chuggaaconroy in his "Sticks it to Sticker Star" series
Not only does it seem like there has _never_ been any other case of a game or series being impacted and basically completely -butchered- reshaped by the surveys, but also the surveys had a reward incentive with Club Nintendo, so it's very likely that the majority of folks who actually did the surveys just quickly went through them without any thought just to get whatever rewards they wanted
And the surveys were basically multiple choice questions with a scale of 1 to 7, 1 being "it was bad" and 7 being "it was good", and of course 1 was up top so basically everyone who skimmed through effectively just said the game was absolutely terrible on all accounts
To put it short, the surveys were actually horribly unreliable, and the only reason anyone would ever try to use them to enforce a decision is if there was an agenda they wanted to push anyway and just needed an excuse
As opposed to the agenda you're pushing?
I guess random comments on the internet and whiny UA-camrs are more reliable.
@@NuiYabukonah.
As opposed to the agenda LITERALLY EVERYONE WANTS 😂😂
It doesn’t take much to see WHY people like what they like
This is not just another cynical UA-camr. This is pure and utter facts. Literally business and profits could tell you instantly that this is the case for practically everyone.
He HATES books. He really is a gamer
insane game designer HATES books and THREATENS those who enjoy stories
my hero o7
He probably hates showering as well
@@jayandjlps He's not a Melee fanboy
@@EnderrBoi This is a Jerma comment.
Miyamoto makes it sound like story and gameplay are two different 'ways' of doing about making a game, instead of them both being two different pieces that work together to create a satisfying experience. The gameplay and the story should feed into each other in meaningful ways. One shouldn't just be a slave to the other.
You said it! I 100% agree with this.
The game doesn't have to be a greek epic or anything, but framing the game and giving the characters and the world some personality go along way towards the enjoyment of a game, even if you mostly skip it on repeat playthroughs, it's already cemented it's flavour in the audience's mind.
Yep, 3D world is a strong example…that games gives you sooo little context to push things along, just ‘save the fairies’ and get on with it.
@@TheJadeFist I mean just take Kirby for example... there's a little bit of story at the start to get you going, everything afterwards is entirely gameplay, and then at the end they drop a bombshell of story and lore that gets you hyped. And a lot of the lore and story is also completely hidden in pause screens and side stories, its entirely optional and doesn't take away from the gameplay at all.
Because that's how it is. As a 10 years expierienced game designer I can tell you. You either approach the game from narrative perspective and then you try to slap Together a gameplay scenario that will tell your story. Or you approach it from gameplay first perspective and then story will have to be adjusted to highlight gameplay aspects. Its like in a dance. One has to lead.
Miyamoto is like your successful boomer dad/grandpa in the family who expects things to just work the same as when he did it, and is completely oblivious to all the cultural and technological changes over the years and is just super resistant to any change and everyone else just sort of sighs and lets him do his thing because they either respect him too much or are too afraid of getting an earful of "THIS IS HOW WE DID IT BACK IN MY DAY, AND IT WORKED"
Yeah I kinda had that "kay boomer" like go throughy head when watching Arlo quote him 😂
I find it funny how much western Boomers are hated by Western Millennials and Zers when Millennials and Zers are probably going to be just as hated by future generations not even alive yet. Such a contrast to East Asia where we honor and respect our ancestors. Even if we disagree with them
@@samf.s.7731 "Better to be a Boomer than be in a generation of whiners 😂" a common rebuttal I hear from boomers to the "ok boomer" remark. And there is truth to that. Boomers are, for the most part, a generation of winners.
Except that's not true at all.
@@HoshizakiYoshimasaBecause they were effectively playing the game on easy mode. Their generation could graduate college debt free just by working on weekends.
To add my own 2 cents: I don't know if I agree with Miyamoto's "story approach vs gameplay approach" as a way to design games. Obviously he deserves credit for all he's done in the industry, but games are in a much different place now, and have been for a while.
Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw talks a lot in his Zero Punctuation series about his desire to see video games take the unique strengths of their medium and distance themselves from movies or "cinematic" experiences. He speaks about how gameplay should inform story, and that they should serve one another instead of being two separate things mashed together.
I'll cite his ZP on Hades for the best example of this. He praises Supergiant for merging the game's roguelike gameplay loop with the visual-novel style story and character development, and how the repetition and slog of multiple deaths from the player are meant to illustrate Zagreus' struggles to break out of the underworld and find his mother in the story.
Ideally, imo, game designers shouldn't be picking gameplay OR story to focus on; they're not mutually exclusive or on opposite sides of a spectrum. They can start design with one of them in mind, of course, but I personally believe gameplay and story should be interwoven because that's something video games are uniquely able to do. If anything, this interview just seems like MORE confirmation Miyamoto dislikes story, because he's made this dichotomy where he can excuse not focusing on story through the implication that games with story focus focus less on gameplay, which is incredibly disingenuous from my perspective. But hey, what do I know? I didn't make Mario.
Miyamoto's statement generally made sense to me but it is definitely best to treat gameplay and story as interwoven things rather than separate. I think one of the problems is that you have people that work on games separated into different focuses and not enough consideration for how everything fits together.
If anything, it now CONFIRMS WHY is that the case, because he genuinely thinks putting story ruins the gameplay. Maybe it was the case on the 80's and early 90's, but nowadays computers have evolved to do both and build between eachother; in short, a very outdated mentality.
I feel like games like Last of Us and GoW 2018 (specifically 2018, Ragnarok was worse with it) can't be discounted too quickly either. In TLOU 1 Ellie became more helpful and deadly over time as she got hardened and skilled. When she was distracted or upset she began to disrupt the flow of the game as Joel would have to prod her a few times to get her to do what she needed to do. The constant scrabble for health and ammo when there's little to be had also made the world feel hostile and the entire journey more personally harrowing in a way the TLOU TV show cannot possibly capture. Really, watching the TV show made it clear what the value of a good "cinematic" game can be. Same goes for GoW 2018 with Atreus' growth and his aggression changing depending on where in the game you are.
Ragnarok seemed to care less about this as it's almost completely straightforward and didn't take advantage of using gameplay to tell its story as much. And I think it's the worse game of the three for it.
Great comment. Exactly my thoughts.
This is an important idea, however there are many popular games that simply tell the story to the player without letting the gameplay inform or reinforce narrative ideas and themes.
That’s the best part of games, imo: the story can be informed by the player experience. Making players watch cutscenes where something happens to the player/character they would otherwise control is often a cowardly choice and often makes the game actively worse.
"I just don't think it needs a story" is a WILD thing to say about a game series that started out being called (in Japanese) "Mario Story" [Paper Mario 1]
To any Miyamoto defenders watching this, it’s important to remember that two different things can be true. Miyamoto had a big hand in revolutionizing games, and we owe a ton to him. At the same time, he actively holds artistic growth back in Nintendo games with his story allergy.
Could not agree more. Miyamoto was one of the heroes of video games but he actively hurts Nintendo now because of his stubbornness and cultist belief in his gameplay philosophy.
Links crossbow game anyone?
Yeah, and we should agree becase truth is you have to be an an ethincentic american teenager to knpw what is right.
HE DOESN'T.
The f*** you people think one person decides everything in the company? Despite the fact that Miyamoto had to essentially rebel against the higher ups with Yoshi's Island?
By the way, what makes that you then? Miyamoto haters?
I know this sounds lame, but as a kid, I was obsessed with Super Paper Mario's subversive story and was intrigued by its mysteries. I even watched several blind playthroughs to see different reactions to the story. Of course, now I am older and know that the story isn't as grand as other things I've seen by now for sure. It was my first Paper Mario game and one of my first games in general and it blew my mind away! I still think about the game's story to this day on occasion.
That's not lame. The game is the deepest Mario story we have gotten and is a great starting point for gaining an appreciation of deeper stories.
whatever thought told you that it sounded lame, get rid of it. that was evil jiminy cricket trying to get you to subvert good tastes in media.
Thats not lame at all. That’s pretty cool actually
That's no where near lame, it's my first and favorite Paper Mario as well! Doubt Mario will ever get that dark again sadly.
It's far from the greatest in any video game (most JRPGs provide steep competition in that regard), but it is _easily_ the best story in a _Mario_ game.
I LOVE the past two Arlo videos being especially petty. I'm all for positivity but a good reality check with a fuzzy blue monster is very cathartic somehow
It’s because he’s CRAZY good at writing and structuring an argument. It’s compelling! 😅
i love it either way both styles are fun
I don't see how this is petty. Miyamoto is an idiot.
YES. I love both sides of Arlo
Nintendo fans have a terrible habit of silencing all criticism as "toxicity". Arlo being one of the few critical voices that doesn't get silenced is a healthy thing.
Gameplay makes a game Enjoyable. Story makes a game Memorable. When a game has both, it becomes unforgettable.
For me, is definetly Twilight Princess. I will thank forever Miyamoto for Midna.
I second this
Nicely put, that’s a keeper! Is that your own thought or are you quoting someone else?
My favorite game ever is Mega Man 9. I have no idea what the story is. I don't play games for story. The only game stories I remember are Bioshock and The Last of Us.
Story also makes me engaged, and wanting to keep playing the game because I want to see how it plays out.
I would have played Sticker Star with that shitty gameplay if the story was as fun as ttyd and Super Paper Mario.
We probably already know this but I think the main distinction is that Miyamoto thinks the main purpose of a game is to be as fun as possible, while we look at games as more of an art and a form of expression. Many of us want games to connect with us at a deeper level than just surface level fun.
So does he, that was the whole point of the original legend of zelda, to create a sense of wonder and immersion. You have no idea what you're talking about
@@rareosts5752 true lol
I mean, he is also missing that story IS part of what makes games fun.
Adventure IS fun because of WHY you adventure and WHAT you do in the adventure
Do we, though? I mean I do, but it often looks to me like gamers in general would rather just screw around in a gameplay sandbox and ignore any story, if there is one.
@@rareosts5752 And even in the OG Zelda there was a degree of story. Sure, it was minimalistic and could be skipped with ease, but it was still there and gave the explorative gameplay a frame, a context, a narrative pull. The overarching mystery of the game was the presence of Ganon (or "Gannon"); reminder his appearance wasn't known until you played through the game at the time, so that was compelling.
Heck, even getting the sword is a marriage of narration and gameplay. "It's Dangerous To Go Alone. Take This" tells you that you're in a hostile place but there will be people in caves helping you, which is true in gameplay.
Even if you’re not paying attention to the plot, knowing one is there can make the game feel more exciting.
That's pretty much Elden Ring, there's this intricate GRRM written story behind the whole thing, and you "like just totally not even know it's there" if you're not someone who's looking for a story in a game you're playing 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
That’s actually a very intelligent and deeply insightful comment.
I only start not paying attention when I've decided a games story is really bad, which is the case for a good 90% of Nintendo games.
After deciding the story is bad it's just kinda tedious and sometimes annoying that they keep pushing it.
Alot of games would have been better without any story at all, though I do still think a good story can add alot
I'm a story guy, it's the first thing I look for in any game. I want to know what is going on, and why I'm doing what I'm doing. I want to know about the world I'm in, and why I should care about exploring it. I don't need lore dumps and narrative cutscenes ALL the time, but I need SOMETHING to keep me going, even if it's just a little bit once in a while. If I get the sense that the game developers don't care about the story and have made the game under the assumption that the player doesn't care either, I very quickly check out and play something else. It feels like a cheap garbage game.
This exactly is why I love Yoko Taro. If you play one of his games you know there a shit ton of lore and background information that you can get invested in, but at the same time he’ll only give you what you need in order to get you from point A to point B and that’s it. Like, you don’t need to know there are actual living Dragons in the American continent when fighting the machines in NieR Automata but it’s nice to know that the world of NieR goes beyond what is shown on screen and MORE. You get emotional and invested in his stories and then there’s also this other thing that will blow your mind as well. This alone exactly why I get invested so much into the world of NieR and why I love stories in games so much
Miyamoto: “It’s not that I hate stories, I just don’t care that much about…”
Basically this video: “CARE, DAMN IT!!!”
I mean if the guy really had to sneak the story in there and couldn't just go "you work on the gameplay I'll work on the story and let's get this game out there" then that sounds bad.
as he should
@@MP_Guz and you have an entire lifetime worth of experience developing videos games right?
@@Tonberry999 I have a better understanding of storytelling than he does that's for sure lol
@@bland9876 What did I just read?
Isn't a known story that the only reason that Rosalina's book existing on Super Maro Galaxy was because Koizumi managed to pass by Miyamoto's eyes without making him notice?
Yes, and many times that deeper characterization appeared in a Nintendo game, like in Majora's Mask and Wind Waker, were because Miyamoto wasn't heavily involved.
We know in Wind waker that he actively kept sticking his nose in saying that it wasn't too late to turn the game into a very traditional Zelda game, and so much love to those devs, they stuck to it.
I do not think as long as Miyamoto is alive that we will see another game with toon link, or any game like that or Majora's Mask, where you feel actual emotion about the characters.
I love Ocarina of Time, but I do not cry at the end the way I do with Wind Waker.
@@WasatchWind Wind Waker is your example of deeper characterization in a Nintendo game? What about Twilight Princess or BotW, then? Those games all featured much more robust and three-dimensional characterization than WW--was Miyamoto also hardly involved there?
@@BenjaminAnderson21 By that Time Miyamoto had little influence on Zelda
@@BenjaminAnderson21 ok but It doesn’t really matter. What if he hasn’t played those games?
Because he wasn't helping with the active development of the game? The game was already behind schedule so of course Miyamoto would be annoyed by that.
Miyamoto is an old school game designer, he helped shape what the games industry became especially after the crash (in the west). But as influential as he is I get the impression he's set in his ways as to what games can be (from his experience in the arcade era where story was limited), and maybe doesn't appreciate how games have evolved in the subsequent decades into a full-on art form where story can be as important as mechanics.
And he seems to think that the slightest bit of story is a terrible distraction - that if we give a character a back story, or introduce new main characters, it will completely derail the gameplay, which just feels so backwards to me.
I get the feeling that if you were to ask Miyamoto "Are videogames an artform?", he'd respond with at least some variation of "no."
@@magetsalive5162 I agree, he'd probably speak highly of them and spin something about offering an experience art cannot, but based on the way he develops and explains himself, I think he very much sees video games as just "more advanced toys".
@@magetsalive5162 It makes me really sad. Walt Disney was quite adamant from the beginning that animation could an amazing means of making art and entertainment, despite perception from some then, and since, that it is childish.
The fact that one of the people most responsible for bringing video games into a place that narrative could exist greatly dislikes narrative makes me extremely sad.
I think it is misleading to say that no story is "old school" before Nintendo saved the video game industry, many game makers wanted to have stories but the technology was so weak and they neglected the actual gameplay that games were super boring or outright infuriating to play.
I do think TTYD’s story helps a young kid who’s never played an RPG before be motivated to learn, but it’s also good enough for a seasoned RPG vet to want to find the fastest way to blast through it.
RPGs having a good story should be a staple of the genre. It's a genre that requires a lot of reading via dialogue, battle commands, narrations, menus ect. It makes RPGs special because of how big and beefy they are. It can fill a game with emotion full of twists and turns. It can help you care about the characters, both the heroes and the villains, even the NPCs!
@@macuser7048 So Origami King?
@@NuiYabuko Origami King could have been so much more than colored pencils and scissor bosses
It doesn't even need to be story. But incredible dialogue and quirky, interesting characters that pulled a fresh twist on standard Mario NPCs and enemies was the strength of all three Mario RPG series (RPG, Paper, M&L) and now they're shells of their former selves because the creativity has been snuffed out of them. Hopefully the Super Mario RPG remake sells well enough in comparison that Nintendo sees that's what people want from these games.
I guess that’s like saying a PG-13 movie helped kids grow up
The puppet gloves have really been coming off recently, reminds me of the Not My Paper Mario videos and im here for it.
It took me until the end of the video to realize you were speaking metaphorically. I kept staring at his hand to see if the puppet was falling apart or something.
Well maybe story dislikes miyamoto
"The creative writing industry killed my father!"
Miyamoto just grew up and worked in a time when it was practically impossible to tell a story with the hardware limitations they had back then. In lieu of a story, game play had to be the top selling point. Unless it was a movie tie-in, then we came up with the stories in our minds. But with the stuff we have now, there is no reason why we can't have both awesome story and action.
Yes but there have been some moments where story can interfere with gameplay.
For example in Batman Arkham Asylum, the final boss is Joker being buff, fans hated that boss fight. However the reason for Joker injected himself with Titan formula, in Arkham City the formula is killing Joker. Eventually Joker dies because of it, resulting in of the most shocking endings in gaming history, but that excuse Titian Joker from Arkham Asylum for not being a good boss fight?????
It's clear that Miyamoto doesn't want to take risks
@@orangeslash1667 I've heard games like Nintendo's own Metroid Fusion and Grand Theft Auto 4 by Rockstar North have fallen into that category as well. Fusion is still my personal favorite game when it comes to the Metroid series, and personally speaking, I think the story does help, and it also makes Samus an interesting character, something the games that came before it either just couldn't, or didn't do. I know some will say there's environmental storytelling, but I think that kind of storytelling really hurt Metroid Prime, the first one anyway. It gave me no reason to care about what was going on with Tallon IV. The story was just, "Meta Ridley escaped to Tallon IV, go after him". As amazing as the game looked, the game needed more than that to make it even better, and it didn't.
As for GTA 4, it's gotten plenty of flak as it is, but the story that game is not only well written, but a good amount of the characters are as well. The gameplay may not appeal to everyone, I think it just takes getting used to. Also, the two DLC expansions that came out after the main game, "The Lost and Damned" and "The Ballad of Gay Tony" had their own stories intertwining with certain events from the main game, since they all take place within the same timeframe. Felt kind of like playing the first Half Life, and then playing Opposing Force and Blue Shift afterwards (I know there's also Decay as another expansion to HL1), where you were seeing the same story through different perspectives. If the story was not there for GTA 4, and you were just playing as some lowly thug causing gang wars, and havoc everywhere you go like GTA 3, the game itself would get boring and tedious very quickly.
@@AkiraStrix94 Say what you will about Paper Mario, but Starfox has an excuse. Starfox Zero was released just before the end of the Wii U, changing the story just to appeal to fans would have caused even more delays. Remember Miyamoto doesn't rush games from a gamplay standpoint. He even admitted that Super Mario World was rushed despite the game's being save Peach.
@@orangeslash1667 Firstly, I didn't say anything relating to Paper Mario. Secondly, Star Fox Zero's story is almost exactly the same as Star Fox 64's.
No, seriously, it really is just Star Fox 64 all over again in terms of its story, just like how Dragon Ball Z Kai was just Dragon Ball Z all over again, but without the filler. Sounds good on paper, but not in practice. I at least know the difference between a game being awful, and a game not being what fans wanted, Zero somehow managed to be both of those things. Not a good combo, if you ask me.
Giving fans what they want in a game like that isn't a bad thing, but when you just repeat the same story, assuming no one's going to care, that's a major step backwards. If another Star Fox game gets made, it better not just be the same story, with Andross being the villain again, just move the damn story forward.
@@AkiraStrix94 like I said, before, changing the story of Starfox, would have caused more delays that is why Miyamoto doesn’t change the story at all. Otherwise it would’ve released in 2017, when the switch was already set to release.
Games usually release at the very end of a console’s lifecycle usually don’t sell well. Conkers bad fur day, and Panzer Dragon saga are very big examples of this.
“Why don’t you like stories?”
“BECAUSE STORIES KILLED MY GRANDMA, OKAY?”
my uncle broke his neck playing bravely default 2 once
how did singing kill your grandma?
what game was she playing?
Miyamoto (probably): "At a young age... my mother was trampled by a herd of out of control stories..."
@@epicgamner1139 I.
I can't tell if you're joking because that's so specific.
@@UltimaKeyMaster lol nah watch the clip its an epic reference
Valve is an example of a company which takes that gameplay-based approach, seeing what players like, and then weaves fascinating and thought-provoking stories out of them.
Valve is an example of a company that has cutscenes like everyone else, but they give you free camera control during the cutscenes, so instead of good cinematic camera work to enjoy while you're not playing, you're still not playing but it doesn't look interesting either. And people praise them for this for some reason. If I can't do anything while other characters are talking, then at least make a proper cutscene.
Valve gets way too much credit. Yeah I said it.
There's games like Braid too. I just played that recently and found myself incredibly immersed in something that I couldn't really understand.
@@mjc0961 It works well for a lot of players when they haven't played it too much & are still into the story but it does become a problem on repeat playthroughs. They should really start adding a way to skip the "not scenes" since they still basically are scenes.
I prefer Valve's approach over something like Mario Sunshine where the scenes are boring as piss, noniteractive, *and* unskippable but a middle ground can exist.
@@mjc0961 It's not really about maintaining camera control. It's about maintaining the perspective. A lot of people find it more immersive when a game doesn't cut away from the first person perspective to show you a cinematic cutscene. It helps maintain the feeling that you're actually in the world, despite not having any control at that given moment.
Maybe you don't feel that way, but that's personal preference. It has nothing to do with the caliber of Valve's writing or game design.
@@mjc0961 It's called immersion.
Did you know...
Good gameplay and good story can coexist? Like, they're not exclusive concepts? You can very much have both?
Kirby Planet Robobot is a perfect example, the Story of a megacorporation who invades and mecanizes entire planets is told through the changues in how the enemys looks and how they attack you.
Portal 2 is also a great example. If you stripped away the story, the gameplay wouldn’t have to change at all.
@@fernandovelazquez4440Woo! Planet Robobot, PEAK Kirby for so many reasons! (imho)
@@Jadondigital Yes but there have been some moments where story can interfere with gameplay.
For example in Batman Arkham Asylum, the final boss is Joker being buff, fans hated that boss fight. However the reason for Joker injected himself with Titan formula, in Arkham City the formula is killing Joker. Eventually Joker dies because of it, resulting in of the most shocking endings in gaming history, but that excuse Titian Joker from Arkham Asylum for not being a good boss fight?????
It's clear that Miyamoto doesn't want to take risks
I give Miyamoto credit for his good ideas early in Nintendos gaming history, but he has a storied past of interfering for the worse with tons of projects. Rare ware, Mario rpg, starfox, ect.
apparently my wish for pokemon was a reality at some point until miyamoto came, the pokemon available would have just been randomized and unique for everyone and then miyamoto said people wouldn't understand.
Asking goldeneye to not have shooting is not "interfering for the worst" its a funny story that didnt effect anything
Yeah, he may be the head of the company, but that doesn't mean he has to add something to every project.
Plus, how often have we all heard this story?
"I pitched this game idea to Nintendo, but Shigeru Miyamoto hated it and rejected it instantly. Through some miracle, however, I eventually got through to him, and the game turned out to become a huge success/cult classic."
@@verbatim7508 He's got the Steve Jobs obstinance.
Mystery Dungeon has such emotional stories that I wish the main Pokemon games had. They get as good as the best Final Fantasy stories.
Not everyone likes the Mystery Dungeon gameplay, however, I recommended the Pokemon MD EoS to my friend, who played a bit of my started savefile (playthrough n°6 btw). She didnt like the gameplay, not hated it, but it was generally boring and tedious to her. However, because I insisted so much that she plays it, even if for the story, she bought it on Wii U eShop (RIP), and as she played it and got to more of the story, she said she played through the gameplay parts JUST to see the story advance.
I think that, if the game had gotten Miyamoto'd, she wouldnt have gotten a wonderful experience. It's the same thing with Super Paper Mario, not everyone likes the gameplay, but the story is what unites both worlds
@@spiritbaki108 pokemon fans getting upset about boring and tedious gameplay is very ironic (im pokemon fans)
@@ellytrabread They're not comparable though, like at all.
"main Pokémon games had"
Black&White 1&2, Legends Arceus, Scarlet&Violet, Sun&Moon.
That curse is gone now.
Also, Pokémon Platinum is competent (not that Diamond&Pearl garbage), Sinnoh lore is always amazing.
Someone will tell me that is blasphemy, but i don't like the gameplay of Pokémon for anything other than Legends Arceus and Scarlet&Violet.
Never knew Koizumi was THAT much of a legend. The balls to say such things about Zelda story and his attitude towards Miyamoto (12:25), especially in a japanese company.
Oh Arlo, bringing my longing for the true sequel to the Paper Mario Thousand Year door back alive again....
Closest you can get is Bug Fables gameplaywise. Storytellingwise, we already got that in Super Paper Mario
Paper Luigi: The Marvelous Compass is a real video game
@@brolytriplethreat Born of Bread seems like it's coming along good as well.
@@ShadowWolfRising what
@@brolytriplethreat it's a video game probably similar to paper Mario and bug fables
People have recently been arguing that Miyamoto is not to blame for Paper Mario losing deep stories and original characters. While he may no longer be involved, as an influencial boss, his comments to Tanabe got the ball rolling. *"So when Miyamoto san, the father of Mario, asks us 'could you make a game with only characters from the Mario family?', I think it’s only natural for us to give it our best shot."* This is a fact, no matter how much fans say otherwise.
I think the blame is less on Miyamoto saying that, but moreso that he tuned out after he said that.
An interview with Paper Mario 64's director back in the day, said that they only used mainline Mario characters in the game, and that they wanted to take the simple route for the story. Miyamoto was a producer on the game, but stepped down to a Supervisor role for SPM and Sticker Star.
Miyamoto's suggestions basically parrot what that PM64 interview said. It may not be entirely Tanabe's fault, but it's definitely part of it. Tanabe once said that, the main reason that Toads are the ONLY friendly NPC in the game, is because Toads are the "only friendly species in Mario." Which is just a baffling statement.
Makes me wonder, what would Miyamoto do to them if they didn't take his suggestions on board? Cancel the game? Fire them? How much power does Miyamoto have? Are people working in any kind of fear?
@@DaNintendude I'm still not fond of compromising that "Tanabe could also use other mainline characters like Wario and Piantas!" That still excuses the restriction against original characters/races, a restriction that should never have existed period.
It would be nice if Tanabe could advocate for original characters and fight back against the IP team that never was strict until the moment Miyamoto stepped in, but he agrees with Miyamotos vision of minimalism by his comments.
@@mjc0961 Well, Miyamoto is the most senior employ in Nintendo, and considering the culture in Japan... yeah, I can imagine at least some of them are afraid of Miyamoto.
@@DaNintendude Well, technically they had to make it based around > Super Mario World < which only has Toads and Yoshis being friendly.
There's a UA-camr I follow named Ruby of Blue who put this whole situation best - "with great gameplay, you have a great game, but with a great story on top of that, you have an unforgettable experience." I myself believe that great gameplay, mechanics, etc. are the foundation for a good game and are what initially hook people in, but the story is what makes people stay.
This is why Ever Oasis is a brilliant masterpiece and one of the best 3DS games ever created.
That's actually why I stopped playing Mario. It was the same shit over and over, with no real motivation.
@@lucario774pika I recommend Banjo Kazooie, it's basically what where to happen if Mario had a story.
@Orange Slash I tried it. I got bored around Treasure Trove Cove and quit in Clanker's Cavern. Just not for me.
@@lucario774pika The game becomes so much harder when to get to Rusty Bucket Bay💀💀.
Other recommendations are Hat in Time, and the Shantae games, except for the console version of the Seven Sirens.
I always thought he just cared more about gameplay than story because he cared more about how the game actually felt to play and because he’s old school. I didn’t think he disliked story
There are many old school developers who have changed with the times, and there are many old school developers who can't handle more modern game design aspects the way Miyamoto can.
@@BonJoviBeatlesLedZep You better not be hinting at a certain lame thing Ubi is trying to force upon gamers
@@HauntakuWhat's Ubusoft trying to do?
@@corundumkrabble5035 I'd like to know as well.
I think both gameplay and story are equally important. If a game has little story, but the gameplay is a lot of fun, then the game is worth playing. If the opposite is the case, then the story has to be very engaging for me to continue forward with it. However, a game that manages to balance a good story with good gameplay is an elite in my book. A good example is the Arkham games. That franchise managed to strike a balance in good storytelling and gameplay.
Miyamoto, Ron Swanson of Nintendo
"Does obtaining the Master Sword actually represent the moment in a kids life, where it needs to choose wether it wants to be an adult, or remain a careless child?" "Nah, its just a ***** sword!"
I mean, a good story doesn't necessarily mean use of symbolism, it just means there needs to be characters and a reason why things are happening.
Analyzing deeper whatever-whatever would take you out of the game.
@@GamingWithCalvin1 I think that you your description is less a "good story" and more "any story at all."
Love the Parks and Rec Reference!
@@lnsflare1 I mean, the things that happen have to be interesting, the characters have to be well written, the world it's building has to be intricate, and the stakes have to actually mean something.
But the whole deal with this object or action symbolizing this theme or this other object or action is definitely more of a "old english poetry that they make you read in english class" sort of thing, than a "stuff I want to deal with while playing a video game" sort of thing. No english teachers are going to be analyzing video game cutscenes any time soon.
@@GamingWithCalvin1 I don’t get how a story having layers would take someone „out of a game“, it just adds to it for the people who notice. You‘re giving me vibes of a less radical Miyamoto ngl
Story and Gameplay can both be good
I wish Miyamoto would put even a little bit more thought into letting us have them
Super Paper Mario made me cry when I played it, and then I played it over and over again, I loved the game especially for the story and I would love to have more games like it
The whole point of appointing different people to different jobs is to do all of that in one game. You have someone handling the story, someone for the art direction, the music, the level design and maps, ect. Everyone plays a part in it. Why cut one of those out?
Origami King made me cry as well.
XC3 made me cry as well, yet I think it's probably the weakest story I played.
Majora's mask is the best representation of how story guided gameplay, it would never have been what it was without the story. And in botw, althogh gameplay was extraordinary, I, like many others, couldn't help but feel that the story was lacking, I just wanted to know more, be part of the story itself, rather than just have a series of jumbled flashbacks.
Exactly
This is a very interesting discussion. I teach English to high school freshmen, and one thing we cover a lot in that year of class is how a good, effective story follows 5 stages-exposition (AKA the setup), rising action, climax, falling action, and resolution (AKA the closure, how things end). Games that Miyamoto has had the most direct involvement in almost ubiquitously don’t have that structure. You’re right that it’s more of a scenario than a story, usually just exposition in the first 30-second intro cutscene and then a climax at the end. Nothing in between or after gives it any weight or lasting substance-it’s all about the gameplay! The New Super Marios are probably the best example of this. Where is the rising action? The gameplay rises, but that doesn’t evoke the same thing a “story” in the traditional sense does (at least not for most people). Where’s the resolution? To use New Soup again, we don’t know anything about how Mario or Peach or Bowser FEEL in the ending, so there’s no sense of closure, just a dry knowledge that the game is done and a sense of accomplishment if the gameplay resonated with you. I love New Super Mario Bros, Mario Galaxy, the original Zelda-all with Miyamoto’s DNA-but it’s interesting to think about what that approach has come to lack.
Mario games don’t need story. They just don’t. They’re fun obstacle courses getting from point A to point B. If you want one, that’s what the movie is for.
Great breakdown. I think the biggest loss is replayability. Much as a book or movie with a great story gets you to pick it up again so you can savor the foreshadowing and find even more hints you missed the first time, lacking story in games just cripples the desire to replay it. There's nothing to glean, it's just mashing buttons in a particular order again because you liked a feedback loops of pretty colors and sounds when you did it Right. For children's entertainment, that might have value, but I firmly believe children can appreciate it beyond Nostalgia when they grow older too. The absense of story... Is quite sad when you think of the lost potential revenue and customer engagement, let alone the beautiful experiences that we can relate in our real lives, we're missing out.
@@Nope2479 That's what the Paper Mario series was for, until Miyamoto had them lobotomized.
@@Nope2479 Nah, fam. Play Super Mario Sunshine and you'll fall in love.
But games only need bare bones story the player fills in the blanks
That ideology only really works depending on the type of game you’re making. It’s if a game like a fighting game or a platformer, then yes, gameplay should ABSOLUTELY go first.
But when you’re making a game like an RPG, then a good story or narrative can be just as important if not more.
Mario and Luigi was very story based and that's an RPG.
Sadly we might not ever get another one.
Even in those gameplay - centric games, story can be the the thing that elevates it from a great game to a masterpiece. Majora's Mask, Links Awakening and Mario Galaxy are all prime examples.
@@CountMonsparkle good examples, but it's definitely a case by case scenario. Easiest example of this is any Donkey Kong Country game. Just imagine lengthy story segments between stages, it would get annoying pretty fast when all you want is the quick and snappy gameplay
@@CountMonsparkle Indeed! A game that manages to balance both aspects and make them compliment each other are games that can be viewed as perfect.
Even in fighting games, if you look at all the enduring classics which still get sequels today, the characters will all have backstories, motives and reasons for why they are fighting. Even if it's all pretty barebones those backstories are what give the characters personality that both informs visual design and can even bleed over into how they have evolved mechanically.
Zelda and Metroid should lean a bit heavier in the story-based direction (being Nintendo's more "adult" franchises) while Donkey Kong and Mario should be lighter on the story
They haven't made a new Donkey Kong in years.
@@iamthemouse4483 then maybe it's about time. Both Country returns and Tropical freeze were well received, and there haven't been a Donkey Kong in 3D yet, wich might be really cool and bring some new mechanics
@@wilhelmtheconquerer6214 But Mario and Zelda make all the money, I'm not getting my hopes up for a new DKC any time soon.
@@iamthemouse4483 you're probably right
Stories are for kids and idiots. So especially the more “adult” games should focus even more on game play.
I'm fine without a grand story for a platformer, but some genres, like RPGs, absolutely need a story to make you care about your party.
nobodys asking for a "grand" story in a platformer. we just want something thats even 1% more than "bad guy did a bad, go get him and save the day."
thats what mario sunshine, galaxy 1, and oddysey did. and everyone loved it.
thats what the 2000's sonic games did. and everyone loved it, even if it started getting hit or miss around 2005.
thats what rayman did. and everyone loved it.
thats what sonic frontiers did. and everyone loved it.
@@OmegaChase1002 Sonic frontiers is amazing because they went way beyond what they needed to do and humanized Eggman in that game.
@@morphstarchangeling8024 that also applies to its story. We have not had a Sonic story this good since Adventure 2 and Black Knight.
@@OmegaChase1002 THIS. it's so annoying when people completely disregard the value of rosalina's storybook because "mario games don't need a story" (and yes, I've seen people actually say that). of course mario games don't need a story! nobody's ever said that! but a game just having that 'something special' will automatically make a game better just by it being there. it elevates a game from simply being "really fun" to being the full package. an actual, unforgettable experience.
it's just like arlo said: there's a difference between "gameplay first" and "gameplay ONLY". and most mario platformers (except the three you named) are gameplay ONLY. they usually have as polished mechanics as possible for a video game, but their stories, characters, artstyle, worlds, and miscellaneous aspects of the presentation are utterly neglected. they're as video gamey as possible, for better or worse. yes, gameplay is the most important aspect of a game, but the other aspects of a game shouldn't be neglected for the sake of the gameplay. and those are the games that, while typically very good and well made, I would rarely, if ever, recommend to other people. they simply don't leave any sort of impression. all things considered, galaxy 1 and odyssey are the only true must-play mario games, because they have an actual identity.
@@jclkaytwo story should come second, but never last.
I can only imagine what it was like for Illumination working with him on the Mario movie.
"But does the movie NEED a story? It's not too late to just have Mario wordlessly journeying for two hours before saving Peach from Bowser at the end!"
@Jermare He also said a *friggin roleplaying game with STORY* in the title doesn't need story, so I don't think I care for the difference that it's a movie.
Yoshiaki Koizumi is one of two producers of Super Mario Odyssey, my favorite game of all time. Thank you, Koizumi.
I hope Koizumi managed to get something good into ToTK for us. I really liked the memories of Zelda and how she was and actual character instead of a princess mcguffin.
You NEED TO PLAY Spirit Tracks
Yeah I hope the game actually has any substance too. I’ve been starved since skyward sword 😭
Koizumi said he doesn't want to work on Zelda anymore, and hasn't worked on Zelda since Majora's Mask. He even said he didn't want to work on Majora's Mask and only did because it needed him or else it wouldn't be finished in time.
You mean Aonuma?
@@sunfeatherX3 IKR, BOTW was really blend for me since it lacked narrative and memorable moment. In fact BOTW is pretty forgetful
The biggest problem isn’t that Miyamoto doesn’t want to put a lot of focus on storytelling in games, it’s that he doesn’t allow others to focus on storytelling when it comes his characters, even when he isn’t working on the game.
Now I tend to desire more simple storytelling (and when I say simple, I don’t mean no vibrant world or strong characters dynamics, I just don’t need a deep dive into into their psyche, watching two friends playing around and teasing each other is more interesting to me than a character being wadded down by a dark and troubled past), all I want is a hero who represents a Paragon of Virtue trying to achieve a goal and a villain, representing Vice, seeking to stop the hero from succeeding, so I don’t care much for stories with “dark” or “mature” undertones in them. Despite this, if you ‘allowed’ someone to use your characters and they created a strong story that gardener an audience that’s comes to expect that level of storytelling, disproving of it is going to make you look bad.
Explain why Miyamoto allowed the Teen Titans Go Movie director to use his characters then and ACTUALLY LIKES THE STORY??
@@HylianBean97 because Movies are a different form of entertainment. Their entire purpose is storytelling. Video game’s purpose, meanwhile, is storytelling AND gameplay.
@@teddyj9482 And Miyamoto was a producer for games like Paper Mario 64, PMTTYD, SPM, produced and superised games like Ocarina of Time which was quite focused on story("Miyamoto wanted to make a game that was cinematic yet distinguished from films", "Toru Osawa created the scenario for the game, based on a story idea by Miyamoto and Yoshiaki Koizumi."), allowed Rosalina's backstory in Super Mario Galaxy, more focus on story in Sunshine and Odyssey, he is behind Pikmin franchise which may not be focused primarily on the story, but still has quite a good plot. Also Yoshiaki Koizumi is his protege, though Koizumi prioritizes story more than Miyamoto.
I don't know, it doesn't seem like he is against stories in videogames, just he sees gameplay as a bigger priority though he isn't against adding good story where it's possible without harming the gameplay.
It's so weird for someone who made LoZ.
It's like the brothers Grimm saying they hate folktales.
@@sharkchannel61 I just personally speculate that Miyamoto doesn't think Mario games specifically need a strong story, given that he's worked on other franchises with a bigger emphasis on story/world building
Fire emblem engage is probably the best example of how really fun gameplay experience can be ruined by a horrible to non existent story. Every character was surface level anime tropes with no real substance to them besides maybe 2 characters and the plot was so easily predictable that I just told myself I spent 50 dollars on it so I have to finish it.
That’s not fair
@@otakumarcusWhy?
I think a big part of why stories are so important in games is because of the memories made through them. Like, when I remember my favorite games, I don't go "ooh, that platforming challenge was fantastic" or "I loved that one specific mechanic"--I remember stories and characters. Story shouldn't get in the way of gameplay, but without it you get relatively samey games like the New Super Mario Bros. series. Those games are fine, but they just kind of blend together.
I rarely remember game story's in detail but i often remember gameplay parts very good.
@@leonidasvonsparta Fair. I guess people's brains work differently. Really, I think it'd be more accurate to say that the most memorable parts of games are when gameplay and story work together really well. Majora's Mask with the three-day time limit the world's built around, for example. (And I think my point about the NSMB games still stands.)
For memorable stories and characters you could just as easily read a book or watch a movie though
@@Nachtflut Does that mean that games are better off without story? Especially when gameplay can help engage the audience and even enhance the story in some cases? Take Hollow Knight's memory sequence in the abyss, for example, or ALL OF CELESTE.
Honestly it's why I stopped playing Mario and went to Sonic. Each game had a different scenario, a different story, or even if beat Eggman was always the same thing. What he does and how he does it is always different. Adding context to the adventure. Mario games are fun and play well. But it's the same story, Im not endeared to anyone because the story has them doing the same thing. I really should give the paper Mario series a closer look when the chance presents itself so I too can complain to Nintendo to give us Mother 3 and good story driven paper Mario games 😂
Story is so important to a game, not every game needs a story, but a story can amplify a game by extreme lengths. Games like Xenoblade, Fire Emblem I really like, but I would never have tried these series if they didn't have a story I could get invested in.
Fire emblem radiant dawn was the first fire emblem game ive ever played. And what I found fascinating was how dark and complex the game was.
It's funny because I couldn't get into Fire Emblem because of the stories. Not because they were bad but because dialog scenes just feel like they drag on when I just want to get back to the otherwise fun gameplay.
@@mr.awesome6011 Which ones have you played? That definitely applies to the modern games, but the older ones were genuinely well written.
This video made me appreciate RPGs more. Gameplay is important, but having motivation that works towards the gameplay is always better.
I'm the complete opposite. I care about gameplay. If I wanted a good story I'd watch a movie or read a book.
I hate a lot of triple A games that have good plots and voice acting but the gameplay is super scripted and easy and doesn't allow any challenge, depth, creativity or options and the story is only really conveyed through cutscenes. Good gameplay to me = amount of interesting decisions per second(this varies depending on the type of game) Also slide through wall transitions to hide loading screens and scripted walking gameplay where they slow you down to listen to someone talk can go die. Metal Gear is amazing because even if the cutscenes are long they've always been well directed and the story is actually interesting and the gameplay can be both challenging and has a lot of variation and options. Metal Gear fully commits to it's cutscenes and story well still being amazing mechanically.
@@Captain_NeckbeardAnd also think lowly of certain game developers too
Story can encourage you to engage deeper with the gameplay.
I can name several games I replay often, where I usually skip all the cutscenes to get to the gameplay...but I only love the gameplay so much because to experience the entire story I needed to gain a deeper understanding of it (i.e. fighting a superboss to get a secret ending).
Edit: Also I can't help but wonder if Nintendo looks at games like Last of Us Part 2 or Mass Effect 3 that had aggressive fan backlash to their stories and say "Yeah we want nothing to do with that."
The flashbacks to Super Mario Galaxy 2 cut me to my core. Galaxy was my favorite Super Mario game in large part because of the unique atmosphere on the Observatory. Peach's Castle was kind of generic, and Delfino Plaza was fun and goofy, but the Comet Observatory was different. It had a wistful and lonely mood, complemented perfectly by the iconic "Family" theme playing in different variations. Obviously, Rosalina's storybook was great, but even without it, the atmosphere alone was still something special. It highlighted the loneliness of space, but made it more light and optimistic. The fact that the sequel went out of its way to make completely new assets just to throw all that out the window was an insult. There's a reason Rosalina is still a fan-favorite character present in every sports and party game and not purple knockoff Patrick.
edit* and to add more, I said all of that without mentioning "story" a single time. I don't think it's just that Miyamoto hates story, I think he hates literally anything that isn't gameplay. I think every game developer and even the executives know that games need some kind of "special sauce", but for Miyamoto, if the sauce isn't in the gameplay, then he will actively fight against it as if it will detract from the gameplay.
The initial concept for Super Mario Sunshine was going to be more story-driven btw
Don't forget that, even in Galaxy 1, Rosalina was meant to be, by implication, from a different cycle of the universe in which Peach is her mother and also dead, but this was removed from the JP/NA releases by Miyamoto (we only know any of this from a screenshot from a French translation of the game).
Exactly why I think Galaxy 1 is far superior, Galaxy 2’s new mechanics are nothing compared to the beautiful and sad atmosphere of Galaxy 1. The reason Galaxy 1 stood out so much is that atmosphere, I mean just look at how iconic the soundtrack and visuals are. Galaxy 2 replaced the dark empty void of space and calm, quiet corners of the universe with sunny blue skies and upbeat, silly worlds.
Not sure whose fault or decision it is, but i really don't like how Rosalina has just become Peach-lite recently. The change in voice in the more recent games really doesn't help with these comparisons.
That, and just all the little ways Mario Galaxy went out of its way to immerse you in the experience. The difference between going into an observatory where a few galaxies can be seen in orbit, and launching yourself off into the distance to get there VS. Going to a steering wheel which takes you to a linear gameified level select screen with little personality is staggering. So many little touches and details and things sprinkled about made Mario Galaxy this whimsical adventure to a mysterious place, and Mario Galaxy 2 a video game with gravity mechanics.
Personally, I've always felt that the games industry and fans tend to give Miyamoto way too much credit than he actually deserves. I'm not saying that the man doesn't deserve his position, or the games he works aren't don't turn out great, but at the same time, there was always something about him that seems 'off' to me. And I feel like it's due to the way interviews frame him, they seem to always take what he says and spin it in a positive light. The most famous one I can think of is the "I don't wanna hire people who play games" Interview from Breath of the wild.
Everyone I spoke to made it sound like he was preaching a gospel and to an extent, I got what he meant, but at the same time, a man who goes fishing or someone who goes hang gliding won't be able to transfer that experience into something that would be fun for everyone to play and the recent stream of popular indie games, made by gamers show that a lot of gamers do know how to make good games for those kinds of people.
The point I'm attempting to swing round to, is I think the issue is that Miyamoto is a very controlling and opinionated person, he has a very specific idea on how things should work and should be done. And he lets a lot of that colour views on things. Like you said, Majora's mask is one of the most popular Legend of Zelda games, to the point it's debated if it is the best, along with classic Zelda and OOT. And despite it's overwhelming success, Miyamoto was quoted as saying he's never let Yoshiaki Koizumi do anything like that again.
And just something else to note about Yoshiaki Koizumi he hasn't, if you got to his Wikipedia page, he hasn't been allowed to do anything story related or directorial since 2007. Since 2008 to 2021 he's only been a Producer or Supervisor.
And the last story-related game he worked on was Super Mario Galaxy, where he snuck the storybook scene in and that, honestly, seems a little fishy to me.
And what are you doing exactly? Misrepresenting what he said, making things up about him, claiming Koizumi's PROMOTION to producer is bad. How you can take the Miyamoto quote as something bad is beyond me. Imagine wanting people to have more interests than playing games all day. Like, are you just some entitled self-righteousness brat or something?
That's because it IS fishy. Koizumi presented it to Miyamoto and he approved of it. I highly doubt something like this you could sneak past the literal creator of the series.
I just googled it and Koizumi worked on one of my favourite video games - Ever Oasis! It's all about the story in that game. Every NPC has a name, occupation, and personality. You can even bring them with you into dungeons! It's a bit of what's inspiring my own roguelike game I'm making.
Koizumi isn't involved in that game
Never forget when they wanted to make a majoras mask type twilight princess sequel but miyamoto shot it down and turned it into links crossbow training instead 😭
It's really sad to me. Twilight Princess is my favorite video game of all time and its story is a big reason why. I would've loved a sequel to it and from the sounds of it there were lots of great story ideas for it.
That’s actually super depressing. I didn’t know that nor expect it to hurt me this much. Wow that sucks.
He can't get over his hard-on for motion controls. They're the weakest parts of games like Galaxy 1 & 2, and absolutely killed StarFox: Zero.
@@AkameGaKillfan777 Starfox Zero isn't meant to be like StarFox 64, it's more similar to Star Fox 1 and 2. Very linear and extremely difficult, which is why there's no wing damage. You can use the minus button to swap screens at any time.
Miyamoto himself said that Zero was meant to have a big learning curve, that an hour or so is needed just to understand the controls. Good thing for training mode.
@@orangeslash1667 Wow, that's a terrible idea.
I play the games for their stories. It what get me playing them. I also like playing farming games and build games like dragon quest builders 2 where is has a story line but even after the story there is still stuff to do.
At the end of the day every one has their way to play.
For me I need a story.
I'm still sour about what he did to Paper Mario 3ds. Apparently it was going to have a story with fun characters like in the past but then Miyamoto stepped in and was like "nah, don't do that."
I don't know for sure if it's a true story but I remember being excited to see a commercial for another Paper Mario game coming out, me getting it and playing it and then being like "...I'm bored..."
There was a commercial that had a Chain Chomp partner and other stuff before release. It still had the sticker gimmick but some core features from the classic games were still there. All of that was cut later.
@@Cerebrum123 It was gonna have the tree from TTYD too
i find it really funny that miyamoto actually even took it into consideration that people may not want story in paper mario. I mean the first game in the series was literally called "Mario's STORY" in Japan like what the hell did he think people were playing it for?
Clearly, we're all just CRAZY about paper! Love the stuff! I eat two pages for breakfast every morning!
@@Baine53 damn only for breakfast? what abt lunch and dinner? cos me personally i have paper for all meals of the day
@@Baine53i eat gears
@@lemonadesnake Gears for breakfast
The dude probably thought people loved the gameplay so much and saw the story as an obstacle or something. Which makes the fact that PM hasn't had a consistent gameplay style since Super
I do wish we could get another game like Super Paper Mario, because honestly it still means so much to me. And it's because of the story that it does; that story, that game, was the first time I REALLY saw what a game could be. What it could mean to me emotionally (I may or may not have cried multiple times while playing but that's neither here nor there). Dimentio, to this day, is still one of if not my favourite Mario villains. Story is important, especially if you can connect to someone like that through it. At least that's what I think.
Super Mario RPG was far better than Super. Super should have been a different IP entirely it was a Romeo and Juliet story co-staring Mario and company. I won't even get into the shitty game play mechanics and forgettable characters. Super Paper Mario is the black sheep for a reason. It's good to have a story in a game imo but Super took it too far.
I think the entire fanbase would be totally fine if the Super Paper Mario gameplay became the new standard for the series if it also meant we would still get great stories.
Literally, this is I'm glad fanfiction exists because if Nintendo won't give us the stories we deserve, then we can through the power of writing. We will do what Nintenwon't.
Sometimes fanfiction writing can be garbage so it’s a 50/50 chance you’ll get something good the best ones are the ones that understand the world and the characters and doesn’t make them out of character
Honestly, they can hire one of those writers... And pay them a very reasonable sum, to create synopsis and dialogue for their stories.
You don't have to hire GRRM or Brandon Sanderson, Jesus just get somebody who knows how to do it well.
Pay attention to his phrasing in the interview: he says he doesn't *mind* the story approach, but prefers the gameplay approach. Miyamoto may say he thinks that the story approach can work in certain games, but he also admitted in that interview through subtle phrasing that he prefers avoiding story in games he's a part of beyond the premise (or as Arlo puts on blast, he hates story in his games).
Agreed. Miyamoto says he doesn't hate the story approach--it's just not for him.
I think Arlo is saying Miyamoto goes much further than "not hating" the story approach by actively removing it from Nintendo games. Sure, he may be ok with non-Nintendo games having story, but first party Nintendo games better not have any of that plot in it.
I agree with him, though..
It's why I love the games he worked on.
There's a concept called
Misinterpretation lol
@@HylianBean97 It isn't, or are you saying Koizumi and Star Fox Zero devs who were subjected to Miyamoto whims were liars?
They can't be all Tetris, they can't all be Minecraft.
Unless they are Tetris and Minecraft.
I definitely need games to have really fun gameplay loops for me to want to play them, but what takes a game I like and turns it into one of my favorites? Story and characters. My 3 favorites are Fire Emblem Three Houses, Persona 5 Royal, and Yakuza 0. What do they all have in common? Really fun gameplay mechanics AND incredible stories with great characters. The story just elevates the experience to degree that a pure gameplay focused game can’t for me.
Honestly I never even knew about Koizumi's impact, and having learned about it consider me radicalized. The more I hear about Miyamoto's whims and the impact they have, as well as what others have been doing when they're able to go around Miyamoto, the more I think it's time he ultimately stepped away. We should never forget his contributions, but the medium has clearly evolved past him.
I mean, without Miyamoto, we'd have Mario's Paint Attack instead of Splatoon. I feel people are really overextending what little info we do have and not critically analyzing how actual game development works. There's like 30+ more people on the team than just Miyamoto, who was busy with running EAD at the time. Even then, a Paper Mario game can work with little story, that's how Color Splash iterates on the formula and fixes most of the issues with Sticker Star. We can look at the larger sign of failure like Vanpool being brought on at the 11th hour to fix the game. It's honestly more the gameplay being incredibly bland that really kills Sticker Star. The bland story with virtually no characters just makes it insufferable.
@@PIKMINROCK1 Miyamoto is all about Mario and doesn't want a story in Mario's game. He didn't even like Luigi that much at first. In fact, Miyamoto wants to erase Daisy. Yikes!
@@Hauntaku but he's not all about Mario. Tezuka is more all about Mario if we referring to Nintendo executives. Miyamoto is every internal Nintendo IP. That kind of breadth means he's not actually involved in most beyond the milestones.
@@PIKMINROCK1 miaymoto isn't even involved in Splatoon
@@ausgod538 The Iwata Asks for Splatoon says that he "flipped the teatable" when they presented an early demo of the game and suggested they use Mario characters. Because as his job of head of EAD, he supervised every internal Nintendo game.
The line between Miyamoto's anti-story mandate and what the utter lack of it can do for a series is perfectly exemplified by KIRBY.
Anyone who played through the Dark Matter Trilogy of games would find themselves intrigued and disturbed by the mystery of what Dark Matter and 0 even were, and from Canvas Curse onward, when Shinya Kumazaki took over, it's been nothing but nonstop lore building with every game since, and not once has it ever harmed the actual gameplay, and the times they come crashing together, like with Morpho Knight or the Soul bosses or the final bosses of Planet Robobot and Star Allies, it results in utter terror and excitement within any player who has been keeping up with the lore, which only serves to enhance those boss fights the same way the story would in an RPG.
Zelda and Metroid, too, benefit SO so much from their decades of lore and story, the fact that Ganon is the exact same dude in every game, progressively warped and twisted with each passing era and defeat, is such an INSANE aspect of the Zelda series, it adds so much depth to a character that would've otherwise stayed as some generic villain or brutish pig monster.
And the ongoing storyline of the Metroid series continuously builds upon Samus as this heroic figure, as she saves worlds and grows stronger, it's a lot like shonen series, she's gone from some helpless girl who could do nothing but watch every human life she ever knew get slaughtered in front of her, to a 3 way genetic hybrid bioweapon capable of killing entire armies with a raise of her hand, draining them of their very life essence.
This is why it’s good to have your Miyamoto’s and Koizumi’s in a gaming company - ala Nintendo. You don’t want yes men that greenlight everything, but you also need people to bend the rules and change the norm sometimes.
You have narrative-driven games, gameplay-driven games, and varying degrees of both.
Miyamoto is an artisan of gameplay. He understands how to create a game that is fun, because he understands what makes gameplay fun. But he doesn't understand that games can be a vessel to tell a story, that some games are more story than gameplay and that that isn't a bad thing.
If a video game is driven primarily by its story or narrative over interesting or refined gameplay, you might as well just make a movie or a book at that point.
I don't think he understands what makes video games fun actually because I was utterly bored by Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 and quit the franchise. The same story and villain got so insulting by that point that it actually effected the gameplay - I was able to ignore the problem for a while but by the time those games rolled in, boy... I really felt the staleness.
@@Vaquix000 Are all your comments just about some agenda of yours?
miyamoto is a paradoxical guy. on one hand, he's a revolutionary in the video game space. his legacy in gaming is clearly seen. on the other hand, he's sort of close minded when it comes to things like this. i guess he's a product of his time, back when these stories couldn't be shown in game. gameplay had to be prioritized because it's what games needed to be compelling
He developed a mindset that let him thrive in the conditions. It's very understandable and with the results it produced admirable. I wish he'd been more open to story as the technology developed, but thankfully we had other people Koizumi and possibly Aonuma who were more invested in that side of things.
It all worked out pretty well for the most part.
Mans trying to sound smart 💀 💀
That is just him being stubborn, even back during Atari era people tried to make games with stories like Indiana Jones
I mean, games like Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger still managed to be revolutionary decades ago...
He's not stuck in the 90s, he's kinda stuck in a time before that...
@@samf.s.7731 yeah im referring to an 80s mindset
If anything, this is also a video giving light to Yoshiaki Koizumi. Why is Miyamoto involved with the Zelda movie instead of Koizumi?
For me, an engaging story is the difference between a merely decent game, and a great game. It can make a game so much more fun. And as a wise man once said, "If it's not fun, why bother?"
l put my hamster in a sock and sIammed it against the furniture.
@@TippyHippy This isn't Tumblr, Dave
how does a good story take from enjoyment? stories are one of the main reasons i play games.
What would a complex story add to a mainline Mario or Zelda game ? Who want to be interrupted by useless dialogue and cinematic in those kind of game ? I really don't get it.
Those kind of games should have a rich world but a simple narrative: show not tell.
The last thing that I want for Mario/Zelda is to follow the path of Sonic games with their non-sensical "story".
@@sacha9593 The Mario argument has some merit, but the Zelda one does not. Zelda is a series of games with a lot of complex stories. Every single main line 3D Zelda before BotW had a story driving the gameplay forward, and it got bigger and grander with each game. So I don't understand what you mean by Zelda having a simple narrative. The early 2D games maybe, but not all of them like your arguing.
@@sacha9593 Complex story is not what was asked. A story can be basic, but the goal is to generate intrigue in its subjects, which is a net positive.
For example, Rosalina's storybook in SMG is not complex, but it certainly increases intrigue in the character.
@@sacha9593 Nobody asked for a complex story. I'm not out here looking for Metal Gear Solid out of Nintendo. You ask for "show not tell" which honestly would be great compared to the Miyamoto style "don't show and don't tell" we so often get now
@@DoYouLiekMudkipz_ I'd say what we want is deeper stories even if they aren't complex. The two aren't synonymous.
SuperMarioT would like a word with you, Arlo.
I mean, Miyamoto comes from the genesis of video games when "Guy defeats bad guy and rescue princess" was more than enough history, but we've come so far now, certainly is not enough anymore, and nothing compares to games that can deliver on both gameplay and story
He's a dinosaur, he needs to go away for mario to be good again.
Miyamoto, the guy who revolutionized videogames, is holding back massively the game company that did so
@@Vaquix000 Miyamoto has gone away; he's been away for several years now. He's said many times in more recent years that he wants these franchises to last long after he's gone, so he's taken a step back and tries to encourage the newer generations of developers. His role in Breath of the Wild and Mario Odyssey essentially amounted to only offering advice when asked and only occasionally contributing some ideas of his own; never blocking or cutting anything.
I'm always impressed by Arlo's commitment to speak the truth regardless of the peer bandwagon pressure, while at the same time, balancing being respectful and placing his critique in the grand scheme. Humble yet bravely honest!
Whining is not commitment to speak truth, what an embarrassing biased comment lol
@@rareosts5752 1) by your logic, what you're just doing is whining.
2) by the definition of biased, Arlo gave his evidences, while you didn't (and just whined), so you're biased
3) If someone brings evidences, then it isn't whining, therefore Arlo was comitted to truth.
4) I don't believe in "whining is not truth" in the first place. The W-word shifts meaning to exclude whatever the 2nd whiner wants to as truth, without having to face the argument of the 1st whiner.
wow i never knew this about the galaxy games. this really helps provide context for what is so unappealing to galaxy 2 for me compared to how much i love 1
being a game developer, it *can* often be surprisingly hard to get gameplay and story to gel together if you really care about giving them both weight. I've struggled a lot with getting the two to work together when I have strong ideas about what I want both to be like. in those situations, one has to take priority, and it can be a really hard decision. in my experience, it's always significantly easier to lead with one and let the other follow.
the most charitable way I can interpret Miyamoto's total avoidance of story is to imagine that he does it to avoid arguments among the teams he's worked with. if they hit one of those crossroads between gameplay and story, they know which road to take. no need to spend time arguing
or he's just a weirdo. who knows!
that said, it seems like basically everyone agrees that, if anything, paper mario should let story lead and gameplay follow. anyone's guess why he thought they should do the opposite
100 percent agree with this.
As potential customer, I prefer gameplay now that I am older. I would love a great story with great gameplay but the reality is that it is very difficult to do and at the end of the day if a game plays badly then one can not experience the story no matter how good the story may be.
@@birdlegscass There's the thing if Miyamoto ever wrote a story, I would suffer from Other M disorder because if your not a great writer what's the point????
No man, it’s fine I watch all your videos no matter the subject
Story and gameplay are both incredibly important. The balance between them even more so. You can’t just have one or the other.
Ohhh yeah you can
@@colbyboucher6391 it depends on the type of game. single player games without story tend to become rather boring unless they’re extremely gameplay oriented. I don’t want to go through temples and kill monsters for no reason, y’know? I want to know why I’m doing it.
I could go into detail on games that do this well but I’m working on not mentioning my profile picture every 8 seconds
I really do t care why I just want to play a game without having cutscenes every five seconds I just want to play a game
@@edgytoucan3444 What would a game without a story be if not "extremely gameplay oriented"? What else *could* it be?
@@boxman5381 I wish you guys used real arguments, Ocarina of Time was a story-focused game did the game stop every five seconds? Nope, just like most story driven games.
Albion is a MMO that don't even have story and is growing for a reason some times we just want to see number go up and nothing wrong with that and I say that as a person that loves story-driven games but still play Albion, just say "I find myself enjoying only gameplay focus games because is I prefer them" and just that is enough argument we all have different tastes you don't need to lie why you dislike other games just say is not for you.
I feel like the Mario Movie wouldn't have a story if it weren't for the fact that movies genuinely require a story.
They don't any more than games
12:35
I'm sorry Arlo but this is *BLATANT MISINFORMATION.*
Koizumi did not "Sneak it into the game against Miyamoto's wishes."
He worked on the storybook in secret, and presented it to Miyamoto when it was fully completed. Miyamoto was surprised he went through all the effort, and let him include it in the game. Likely because he saw the finished product, and that it was important to Koizumi.
And while Miyamoto didn't want story to be in Galaxy 2, Koizumi _actually agreed_ early on that the game didn't need a story. It seems Koizumi understood that Galaxy 2 didn't need a story, and that they should put all focus into gameplay. This is why the game is so much faster and more streamlined. There's still lore in the game, and new information, but the story is simple and to the point, so people who already played the first game don't have to sit through more story.
I don't believe you one bit. Miyamoto was involved in Super Mario RPG, the first two Paper Mario games, and Super Mario Galaxy which have stories that Mario fans loved. He also originally wanted to be a manga artist before entering the video game world and we all know mangas are story driven.
What about Star Fox then yah be so quick to talk about the paper Mario situation but ignore the starfox situation
@@mgmboy3778Everyone ignores StarFox
@@mgmboy3778 The Star Fox situation Is a lot more complicated than Simply Miyamoto being to Blame. Star Fox was essentially dead until they did the 3DS remake of Star Fox 64, in order to garner interest in a new game. It’s actually a miracle that we even got Star Fox Zero to begin with because Miyamoto tried to push for it. As divisive as it was, as least we got it (and it’s not a bad game either, though perhaps the ones fans were hoping for).
And There was deeper narrative in those first 5 games and even Zero as well (even if it’s just a retelling of the same story), so I wouldn’t use that as a knock against Miyamoto either.
I think slowly but surely Nintendo will adapt. They will give us those beloved Nintendo gaming vibes that iconic is for, with further implementation of the story as new staff bring new life to Nintendo eventually. However it is important to remember that Nintendo is a Japanese company and Japan very much seems like a society where seniority rules the day.
You also have to think about how old Miyamoto is. When he was first designing games, arcades were the vanguard of gaming, and back then the majority of players didn't really care about stories. Think about Pac-Man, for instance. If you were trying to make an arcade game, you generally didn't have time to tell a story, as your goal was to get the player interested (quickly), then get them into game play as quickly as possible to drain more money out of them. That was the prevailing mindset during Miyamoto's formative years. Look at some of his earliest games: Donkey Kong has an excuse plot. So does Super Mario Bros. And those were both massively successful, primarily based on their innovative game play.
Once something like that is ingrained in you, it's hard to open your mind beyond it.
Thing with that is, while it's understandable, it has also been 40 years since arcades were the preferred platform for gaming. It's 2023 now, he's had a long time to develop games outside that paradigm
@@amaurapond I agree. I'm not saying he shouldn't have changed by now.
Even in the classic arcade days, games like Pac-Man specifically had intermission screens where the titular character and the ghosts would get up to hijinks. It was perhaps a very primitive bare bones form of storytelling, more akin to other short form media like the old Loonytoons, but I would still contend that it counts as at least an attempt at providing entertainment outside of purely mechanical gameplay.
Yet in those games the story was what made them successful.
The first two arcade games had you rescue Pauline and Peach... both of which used story elements to bait and push the player to continue. It made them worth touching even if the game didn't look super fun and finishing once you start.
@@amaurapond Doesn't really matter because he barley is involved in games right now.
read the title as "sony" instead of "story" and prepared myself to hear some beef lmaoo
Just wanna say your content is super helpful for me. Very stressed out these days with school/job search, etc etc. Normally I'd listen to podcasts or something but your content is one of the first things I look for cuz it's just fun, thoughtful, but not contrroversial or stressful. Great way to refresh my brain a bit.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think Koizumi brings a certain charm to Nintendo games that makes them so much more enjoyable. I beat Super Mario Galaxy(though I never discovered Luigi as a kid), but I barely got anywhere in Galaxy 2. I always wondered why, but knowing the effort put into the Storybook was excluded from the sequel explains so much.
Miyamoto’s attitude towards stories was always so bizzare. Usually if someone doesn’t like stories in video games, it’s mainly because they’re too obtrusive and get in the way of the actual gameplay (i.e long cutscenes, convoluted lore, etc).
But the thing is, in the cases of Super Mario Galaxy and Link’s Awakening, the added story hardly ever interferes with the actual game. And it’s kinda notable that he never really gives an opinion about the ACTUAL story content itself. If he said something like “I don’t like the Rosalina backstory because it’s too sad and depressing for a Mario game” that would make some kind of sense. But he never gives an opinion like that because for him, Rosalina having a backstory at all is the main issue.
My personal theory is that Miyamoto has views video games as “toys” as opposed to creative pieces of media, which makes sense considering that when he worked at Nintendo when they were essentially a toy company. For him, a “story” is just the basic context and scenario you give your game to lend it some identity, like CandyLand or Monopoly. And considering how open he is about the fact that he literally doesn’t play any or even acknowledge any modern video games, I’m willing to bet he’s kept the same mindset towards stories since the NES days.
Super Paper Mario is my favorite PM mainly because of the story. I liked it a lot.
Third best Paper Mario game imo
God I love that game! I wish people weren't giving it so much backlash and shit like that. The people who're like "It'S nOt LiKe TtYd!!" then they're the ones who made Sticker Star exist in the first place. Sometimes butterfly effects can make things happen that you don't want if you don't keep your mouth shut.
When I think of story in nintendo games, I always think of the parts that hit most, and either made me cry, or put me on the verge of tears. Scarlet's letter from Bobbery, cried hard on that. Watching as you failed to save a world in super Mario, where you were to fight 100 fights, but part way through even the challengers realized that oh crap, we need to let them go, and then they ALL DIE. Theres nothing you can do to save them, but watch as their world gets deleted. Holy crap, walking through that destroyed dimension, amazing story telling I've never seen in a video game before where you fail so hard. It all turns out better in the end but that was amazing. Majora's mask, the helplessness. Oh my god the helplessness, Cremia actually getting her sister drunk so she would feel the fires of the moon crashing into the world. If you deliver the letter and screw up the quest to retrieve the couple's mask, Anju will stay at the inn to her death waiting for her lover, and if she doesn't she'll wait for death to come at Romani Ranch. Metroid prime 3, the environmental story telling of Phaaze, where there isn't a lot unless you actually look at the environment, for instance the chamber of infant leviathan seed. If you look at the floor and the walls, you can see the machines used by Metroid prime in the boss fight of the original game everywhere. There's so much good in the story, so much I remember. I remember a lot of super Mario galaxy 2 even without a story. It COMPLIMENTS the gameplay. But paper Mario, an RPG tells a story. Super paper Mario had IMO basic and crap gameplay I still remember the story, and I still go back to play through that story. I haven't touched sticker star since I beat it. I've never touched color splash, nor origami king because the story in those are nonexistent or meh from what I've read.
Take Halo 4, different company different studio. It had shit gameplay, if you play above normal difficulty its a slog boring. Mindly fun on normal difficulty or below. I still remember the story though, it was very impactful in what it meant for the series as a whole. It's regarded as a pretty good story, and the only reason to play the campaign, unlike the previous entries that are all regarded as fun and memorable for both gameplay and story. THen halo 5 was just crap, crap story unless you read all the books and comics, crap gameplay bugged beyond belief. Only good for competitive multiplayer.
When you don't have a story, then you only have two legs left to stand on, gameplay and your IP. Pokemon is always gonna sell because they got an IP. Mario is always gonna sell because they got an IP. Metroid ain't, its saving grace in return of samus and dread was awesome gameplay and an amazing story told primarily through subtext, on par with that of Metroid Prime. Now we are seeing Metroid finally make a comeback to stand up to other Nintendo giants for the first time since Metroid Prime 3, over a decade ago.
Just look at Fire Emblem with it's usually enjoyable story and bland gameplay. The story is fine and the gameplay is passable. It may not do well, but the fans are ravenous for more every year!
Origami King had a pretty good story. The gameplay was a lot of fun as well. Color Splash is good if you just want a comedy.
I think it would've been better if you had included links to these interviews that you're pulling from (or at least, tell us what interview it is so we can try to search for it ourselves). Not from a place of distrust or anything, I love you Arlo, but more from a place of supporting full transparency.
Thing is, most of those “statements” made by Miyamoto are actually misunderstandings and misconceptions. This narrative of “Miyamoto doesn’t like story and goes after anyone that does” has been debunked before.
@@superkoopamocha Can't take the risk of people finding out common narratives are complete and utter BS.
SuperMarioT did a recent video like this, and it's a LOT better
After doing a little digging, I found out that Club Nintendo surveys--where the "less than 1% liked the story" statistic was ripped from--were just quick little questions that people would answer as fast as possible to earn rewards points. Many, MANY people didn't bother answering properly at all, leading to skewed results, particularly favoring the first answer in any multiple choice situation.
*tl;dr If the question was something like "What was your favorite part of SPM" and plot wasn't the first option, then it wouldn't have stood a chance. Surely Miyamoto would have known this. It smells like an excuse to me.*
As someone who grew up during those old Club Nintendo days, I can anecdotally say that yes I was one of those kids who would answer those questions as fast as possible for my points. I did put some thoughts in some of the questions but overall I do remember the survey questions being incredibly basic and bland. Needless to say, I didn't have Super Paper Mario during this period and bought it used sometime after the old system was discontinued so I couldn't have done the survey for that game.