The way Bonnie handled this left me in awe. She was able to get out on her own volition and convince others calmly and effectively, despite the crushing knowledge of how insidious the organization was and how even more insidious the man behind the org is. She stayed calm, did her research, and created the opportunity for people to wake up.
hey Mark - as someone who has watched everything I could find on this and feel somehow weirdly emotionally involved, I really appreciate these debriefs. I kind of need them oddly so thank you.
Amazing-just amazing. Bonnie's music is the icing on the cake for this whole documentary (I didn't know it was her voice-she is the hero of the documentary, and the others who left early and were hounded) Blessings to you both. (I felt really bad for Nancy's cat btw) And "mirroring" is a bit of a mind fuck to me.
Hi Mark I've followed your story from the very beginning, and I just want to say that , you, Sarah, and Nippy are amazing, I've been so impressed with your strength, loyalty and ethics. But I'm am absolutely blown away by Bonnie's ability to slowly and patiently show you what was happening. She is AMAZING!
Nancy triggered me way more than I thought she would. And I realized Season 2 is perhaps harder to watch b/c of the individuals that are "still in", so much so that they leave court to avoid a victim's/ survivor's testimony. My blood pressure definitely spiked a few times during episode 2, with me wanting to scream "Get Out! Wake Up!" for THEIR sake. Masterful documentary film-making, and these recaps are so crucial to understand the deeper context. Thank you, Mark!
I have to agree. Nancy ( I call her eyebrows) triggers me more than Keith. I find that fact very unsettling. I wonder why? Possibly because she involved her daughters. I always wondered about her having a sexual relationship with Ranier. I couldn't believe it when she admitted to. Then she exposes her daughters to this predator. How could she not know people were merely objects to be used as he feels necessary. For whatever purpose that will benefit him and him only. I can say watching her get into bed with her dirty shoes on triggers me to no end as well!
Love love your commentary-so generous. Look forward to it as much as the Vow every week. Honestly helpful for those of us in recovery from crazy town relationships/cult
I just binged all of your podcasts. I'm so grateful you decided to do this. Watching this episode was difficult for me. It was just so heart wrenching. Maybe it was seeing the loss of great friendships or maybe the disappointment that Nancy wasn't another victim, but a leader. Also, I LOVE the opening song and never skip it. So cool to learn it's Bonnie!
This was awesome. Thank you for doing these debriefs. I can only imagine how hard it is for you to relive these painful years. I’m sure it must illicit a rollercoaster of emotions for you….💪🏻
I wish I had found your channel before I watched the documentary the first time. I'm in the middle of watching again with your commentary. I appreciate watching you unpack this messed up life experience and heal. I'm fascinated, horrified and saddens all at the same time. Bonnie is my hero. Such a brave sweet woman. I hope you both are doing well.
These videos are extremely helpful, especially to those who've had similar experiences. You & Sarah & Nippy are providing such a service - thank you. I have to say a word about Bonnie. The courage it had to take for her to speak out first was enormous. Her intuition & wisdom are amazing. You're a very lucky man. 😊
I am glad you are taking a break to take care of yourself. This episode made me grieve for so many things; and I'm not even personally involved. We all long for understanding and connection; I think it's so easy in this world to experience a bit of that and chase after ever increasing amounts of it. In my own therapy, I've done a lot of work identifying how I have tended to chase after the experience of feeling understood and interpret it as love/affection and commitment, when it's not. It's excruciatingly difficult to watch KR dangle that carrot in front of people to bait and switch and manipulate, leaving people feeling worse about themselves at the same time of making them try harder, because it's so much my own story. Seeing Bonnie in the park across from the courthouse - the look on her face reminded me of all the times after my own trauma; sitting in the parking lot of a church and unable to go in because of panic attacks/PTSD. I am so glad that she appears to be actively making choices so she doesn't have to relive things. I mostly just wanted to say thank you for sharing and especially debriefing, as it both inspires and helps anonymous souls like me who had no part of NXIVM or ESP, but have experienced spiritual abuse/trauma.
Side note about men who are "attracted" to women who are severely under weight, these men can also be "attracted " to children. I came across this information from a UA-camr who herself sufferers from an e.d. She noticed these men on some e.d forums.
Mark - I admire your resilience, bravery and openness. You are helping so many people, i appreciate these breakdowns even more than the series on HBO. Thank you for all you’ve done. I hope you & Bonnie are healing and happy ❤
I have to say that I have been thoroughly enjoying your podcast. I have watched all of The Vow that has been broadcast so far. When I saw those scenes in Episode 2 of season 2 filmed outside the courthouse while people who are still loyal dancing, it reminded me of Charles Manson and The Family when he was being tried for the Tate and LaBianca murders. There is a very Manson like quality about KR that permeates the entire documentary. I am a survivor of child abuse so I understand coercive control very well indeed. So I very much applaud the strength of the people that have walked away. You and Bonnie have particularly impressed me.
Thank you Mark for your updates! Hopefully talking about the details is helping you process. I can’t imagine how difficult it must be rebuilding your life. I’ve never sat through a trial but 4 or 5 days of testifying seems awful to me! How many questions can they possibly ask? I couldn’t have done it. I’m praying for your healing and I have no doubt you’ll figure out a way use your experiences for good and to help others. ❤
Thank you for these videos. As a cult escapee-survivor from another group entirely, I find your observations and reactions, to your experiences and how they make you feel, really helpful as I work through my own experiences and recovery process. A comment on Nancy Salzman's guilty plea combined with her statement "my company was destroyed and my whole life fell apart" (quote from The Vow S2 trailer). By pleading guilty, she prevents the creation of publicly available trial records documenting the details of her crimes. Her statement, "my company was destroyed" is in passive voice. Who destroyed her company? She did. Keith did. Alison Mack did. Her grammar is a linguistic tool to lead the listener to imagine some outside monster swooped through and destroyed her company. Her tone when she says it is one of distress and victimhood. She sounds like she is saying that someone destroyed her company unfairly, to harm her, "poor me," and that as a consequence of someone else's actions, HER life was destroyed. Her pleading guilty without a fight, and without the presentation of evidence and witness testimony, comes across as an admission of guilt without fault. That she is guilty because she was there, but not because she is responsible for initiating, designing, or executing the harms. To use NXIVM-speak, it sounds like she is guilty by association and not "at cause." This paired with the grammatical and tonal choices of her statements of "my company was destroyed" (by someone else), "and my whole life fell apart" (poor me victimhood phrase), sound like an NLP-DARVO manipulation strategy to me. She is, IMO, setting herself up to start the martyr-victim-come-back-for-the-true-tech-that-got-destroyed-by-those-monsters business when she comes out of prison. This quote by Jon Atack, quoting Hubbard, (Hubbard speaking about himself), "Never trust a hypnotist." I think this is extremely important to apply to Nancy.
Hello. Thank you for doing this. I found it puzzling when Nancy said something like, " I think Keith was just being Keith, I blame the women. I am angry with the women" it is espe ually disturbing BC one of them women was her own daughter.
The pavlovian thing is so interesting… Narcissists often like to put little things out there that tell on themselves. Because they enjoy duping people even more when it’s kinda obvious that they’re doing it. So i feel like the pavlovian thing on some level is saying “look, Im conditioning you” And nobody would realise the link there.. Its a game, and as long as nobody gets the link the narcissist can revel in the fact that he’s basically telling on himself and people STILL revere him and don’t understand their being manipulated.
your voracious learning and processing of these evil-systems-normalized is helping us all. More power to you. Thank you Mark! Can't wait for your book and film to come out. Nancy was Keith's instrument of fear mongering - Ivy testified. It seems to me she knew about DOS after a while but having her daughter tied up with Keith for too long - she didn't or couldn't confront it. She has too much power to lose. But she never had a heart for emotional losses piling up in her own daughter's life - outsiders still have more sympathy for Lauren than her own mother. Her vow to care for Lauren couldn't supersede her vow to work for Keith? Each of you the early defectors also took much losses plus Keith's lawsuit looming upon you. You did yourself proud. We are so very proud of you. The exponentially growing number of slaves in DOS was horrendous. And Keith would have ruined each of them beyond our imaginations. The Dossier women don't understand how lucky they became on their road to total ruin.
Hi Mark. There was a time when the blaming of everyone was par for the course in the new age and psychology movement, if you remember. Now it has become you are not a victim strange but a twist on the same thing actually if you think about it. Glad you mentioned this and you are mentioning in each of your videos how cult narcissist use the same techniques to manipulate empathy against us to get what they want. Strangely these techniques are now adopted by people who are not narcissistic- it has become engrained in our daily lives. Great job! ❤
Your statement at Nancy's sentencing. Now I understand a little bit more how seriously everything was upside down inside NXIVM. I can only imagine how much courage it was needed to rise against them. Believing and giving up those beautiful dreams. You are probably right that some of the loyalists are still stuck in those dreams (at 29:20 ) . I participated in an online training program from the US. After little over a year of participation it ended in conflict, and I finally left. I have found many similarities, at least in my subjective perspective. Victimhood -term still really raises my anger! Starting at 39:00 you explain “at cause” and “victim” -things and how seriously twisted it is in so many places, serving monsters' purposes. I bet they enjoy and smile inside while teaching that, knowing it opens the door for them. I also did go into that trap, in my last personal meeting I told my trainer never to use the word victim with me. During my leaving process I thought how stupid that is. If someone stronger than me beats me up without reason, I am a victim. If someone steals from me, I am a victim. It is the truth. There is nothing to be ashamed of.
Hi Mark. I've been watching The Vow since the beginning and you and Sarah and Susan and anyone else who got out are amazing people. I'm so glad you got the justice you deserved. I'm a new subscriber to your podcast and I love it. Much love and blessings to you and Bonnie......
Glad to see Jedi Mark in action 🗡️:) Yes, I’m a Star Wars geek too. Thank you Mark and Bonnie for sharing your thoughts and perspective. I am glad you are taking a break. I can’t begin to understand how traumatic for you and Bonnie rehashing this part of your lives. Hope you are enjoying the beautiful beach.
I so appreciate that you are doing these de-briefs Mark it gives so much depth to the experience of watching The Vow season 2. So many things I could say and questions - but I will just say that I am happy that you and Bonnie are doing well. Did I hear that you were writing a book? I will read it for sure. Also looking forward to your film about narcissism - one of my deep fascinations.
I admire you and Bonnie's bravery. I hope yall can carve a new life not defined by your trauma. Glad I discovered your podcast and you are writing a book. Helps me go further than surface level condemnation, and understand deeper about the intricacies of how a manipulative person operates. And how we may heal from their abuse.
Thank you for sharing your journey with us Mark.. A few thoughts on mirroring. I learned it when I trained as a Dance Movement Psychotherapist (which I no longer practice). We mostly focused on the mother/baby (or small child) dyad and how in order to soothe a baby, the mother mirrors him/her. Eg. if a baby is crying, the mothers voice/emotion/body will instinctually match her baby, thus the baby feels heard, soothed and calms down. It is very different from copying. And I don't think acting as if you are empathizing/understanding has the same soothing 'result' either. I can see how a narcissist might try to use this as a tool to their advantage, but I honestly don't think it will ever work the same way as true mirroring (how/why this observation came to be theorized), since for the narcissist there is no real connection or empathy to begin with.
I just realized; so back in 2010, I watched 'what the bleep', which launched me into a thirsty spiritual truth quest, led me down weird parapsychology routes, and ended up becoming a Dance Movement Psychotherapist... To be honest with you, I no longer agree with anything from that documentary, and find much of the therapy world breeds more confusion than peace. Its been an adventurous journey nonetheless! =)
After listening to this I went and read your statement at Nancy's sentencing. And... wow. That reallllly elucidated her involvement. And hoooo boy, the way she treated Bonnie. As a family truth teller, there were aspects to that enabler rage + gaslighting to which I could deeply relate. Talk about wanting to give someone a snotklap. It's very much worth the read, guys. If you think NS's tone-deafness in this episode was damning...
I was totally tuned into the vow and devoured everything I could related to it. I was cheering you guys on through it. I am 100% here for this commentary it is the deepness that I was missing up until now. Will be checking out the rest of your channel, and checking out Nippy and Sarah's as well. Very best wishes to all of you, of course including Bonnie. She was the most awesome canary!
Really interesting insights and reflections, Mark. Appreciate it - helps to understand the story and the phenomena involved in a much deeper way. All the best 🙂
I hadn't heard of fawning as a fear response before, but god it makes perfect sense. In the emotionally abusive relationship I had been in, I used to thank and compliment my abuser so often for how well they "put up with" me. And I remember at the time both feeling that it was true (in that I did feel like I was just something that needed to be put up with) but also sort of hoping that if I said they were good to me enough, maybe they'd feel compelled to live up to what I had said. But the doublethink of an abuse victim is strong, so I wouldn't let myself explore those contradictory feelings more deeply until after I had been out of the relationship for a while. Afterward, I used to beat myself up so much for complimenting how they treated me, because if part of me was hoping the compliments would compel them to treat me better that means part of me knew things were bad and I should have seen it and left. It had never occurred to be that I was complimenting them out of fear of their reaction if I actually said how they really treated me. That makes a lot of sense.
Thank you, Mark. Your insight is clear, informative, and moving. As someone who has had numerous psychic experiences since I was a child (I'm not new agey), I am very uncomfortable how Reniere twisted and sullied the ideas of the nature of reality, the creative power of imagination, and taking personal responsibility for our thoughts, feelings, and beliefs that shape and define our daily lives. He emotionally masturbated all over that in the most nauseatingly and perverted way. Thank you so much for what you doing.
I found Nancy absolutely creepy. I understand it's hard to let go of the defensive delusion. Facing reality, consequences and responsibility is a decisive step not everyone has strength to take. And of that, one remain responsible, either they own it or not. In the end, we are what we do. THANK you so much for sharing.
At one scene somewhat older Nancy S. is so moved with Keith, when Lauren was also involved with Keith. This floors me. Of all people, Nancy knew the tally of women in his harems - she teaches that women have to accept that for her man- she could still be okay for her own daughter Lauren (almost 3rd in command)? What mother lets her fickle one time lover to date her own daughter ? She might not have known this in the beginning, but when she suspected it - she was okay -it is sort of obvious from some of the photos.
I totally agree about Keith’s explanation about vulnerability and fear. It did not ring true at all. But his delivery is powerful. I can see why people would be pulled in. He is a master of word salad!
When Agnifilo said that Keith depended on him, it was indicative how he was being manipulated. The very fact that a lawyer as savvy as him was willing to be on film made it weirder.
Mark: is it fair to say that KR intentionally learned YOUR "symbolic language" (in this case, literary heroic journeys, i.e., Joseph Campbell, mixed with George Lucas), and then used that "symbolic language" to entangle and swindle you?
"What kind of mind sits there and watches people, and matches their tone, their pace, their body language? That's a very different kind of mind that does that." You literally just described Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and the study of rhetoric, in general (which is why i, as a scholar of both rhetoric and ethics, effing hate those guys).
is there somewhere to learn more about what you said at the very end, that "a number of the women around raniere had died"? i haven't heard about any women in the "harem" dying except pam cafritz (and i know there's a bit of a conspiracy about her death). that is extremely concerning to me and seems like something that should be explored more.
The sad thing is, there will be people who follow Keith till the end. Some people just want to be controlled .I don't understand that, but to each there own. It's so scary what he was capable of having people do. That thought scares the hell out of me. Wishing all of you a very happy,healthy future
I’m by no means justifying their beliefs but hoping simply an attempt to offer some understanding. From my perspective I believe these people simply reject any further information other than what they have learnt and hear from Keith. Don’t forget, his whole operation was luring people in under false pretences, teaching them powerful techniques that he ends up using against them as control methods for complete power over them. These NLP-based teachings are designed to rewire the brain and their cognitive filters where their model and map of the world becomes one where there is no room to think or act for themselves. What Keith says is words from God in their eyes and the only source they must abide and follow. He manipulates them through charm and hypnosis language etc to believe they live for him. He applies the same techniques he teaches in ways to use against everyone.. so he can maintain complete control and over time strips them of any sense of identity or individual thought . That’s where the extreme rejection of facts and horrible information comes in. He’s programmed them to be that way. For them, the potential thought of “what if what they are saying is true”… would feel like they would have their entire world and sense of self and belonging, not to mention their whole map of the world and everything they know… robbed. This would be like an extreme death to them. So this is why some people just still follow him.
While I certainly think DOS was born out of his desire to blackmail and have more and more adoration, I think he was getting sick of having to deal with the women he was with still having a tiny bit of agency where he felt it _could_ be possible they’d get fed up with his bullshit and leave him or sleep with someone else - and he was just tired of dealing with their pressure or emotions every once in awhile so having the vow was perfect. they agree to his obedience unconditionally and so there is no more of that. he was perfectly happy to use them and abuse them for everything HE wanted but any kind of serious confrontation *ALWAYS* leads him to some kind of proverbially closet.
This is so fascinating as you wonder how all you talented, intelligent people fell for it. Other cults preyed on the poor and unfortunate, but you all were doing fine in life. So just freaks me out to think how slowly he boiled the frog of all your minds. And I BET most of us think: Would I have done that? Horrorific thought -- never want to find out! SO GLAD ITS OVER FOR ALL OF YOU. Thank you.
@@markvicente7 Oh ok. Thank you! I discovered your channel yesterday and I'm watching every single video, just can't stop. Congrats on your redemption story. 🙏
Mind blowing podcast once again. Is Nancy any better than Keith? I am having my doubts that she is. The only difference is that she didn’t sexually abuse people but she led the lambs to the slaughter coldly and calculating. Listening to her speak she portrayed herself as an innocent little flower who is guilty of nothing but being too awesome and helping too many people. She was nostalgic about her days of mindfucking and manipulating thousands of people. If there was any justice, she’d have the same sentence Keith does.
Those hairless cats ARE SO weird! LOL. I imagine Lauren picked them because they're hypoallergenic, so I'm guessing KR was allergic. As Joey on Friends said, "That's not a cat! It looks like a hand!" LOL Nancy's house decor is fecking creepy af. What's with the old lady in the corner?!
The lawyer who defended KR was just in it for the money and publicity, as look at who he previously defended …….. greedy, deviant men. And, the lawyer seemed proud of his win for these men. He also was very sexist, especially when he talked about the brands. ….. like the women want a brand that they latter found out were initials of their so called teacher. So, not surprised of the lawyer’s defense of KR.
So why is Nancy in season 2??? What is the reasoning behind? I saw all the people that still inside and under the spell and refuse to see reality, but I still not understand why they are there now?? They made me sick and made my blood boiled. I guess they want to tell their true, but is not such as they still not see what has really happened to everyone including them
I am hoping that they are doing like in season one, first presenting the miracle technique that cures Tourette's syndrome and then start breaking it down.
Matching someone's tone and body language to build rapport is actually a legit therapeutic method. It's borrowed from motivational interviewing, if I'm not mistaken.
I am listening again- there are quite a few gems in Mark's comment that are truly healing: " If you are always wrong and they are always right- get the f* out of there". Then there is the reaction of Asansolu having told or became knowledgable by the consistent media report, he CHOSE to believe the abuser and became an open member of Keith's fan club, this is so blindly narcissistic and messed up- though he seems like a nice guy. Some of us had this horror of unprocessable pain when our own family and friends becomes openly friendly with our abuser, even after we had left the abuser. This is another level hurt-shame that our own people do to us - for whatever reason. How do they claim to be a nice person if they can walk over the fallen pain bodies of their one time friend or family to join the mastermind? The most extreme example was that of the father of Daniela and Camilla Fernandez openly praising Keith in court how he as a runner improved his running with presumably Keith's support, never mind how unbelievable pains his entire family especially the daughters had suffered(the Judge was aghast!). Asansulo cant get past that his feelings as a father improved - never mind what the women he had considered as friends had suffered by the Keith (News: a new father is always enjoy his baby -unless nothing satisfies him)..
Regarding the lawyers: I understand how hard it is to try and wrap your head around lawyers being able to defend people who have massively harmed others. In this country, lawyers are sworn to zealously defend their clients. And as I’m sure you are already aware, you are also innocent until proven guilty. It is important that lawyers hold the line by adhering to that tenet, “innocent until proven guilty,” because it is not the lawyer’s place to determine their guilt. It is the jury’s. That departmentalization (I’m assuming lawyer’s must departmentalize) is what keeps innocent people from going to jail…unfortunately, there’s still plenty of innocent people that go to jail (two things can be true) BUT MY POINT IS, I don’t think lawyers are these people that bend some universal morality in order to do their job, but that THEIR VOW is to ultimately protect ALL OF OUR constitutional right to a fair trial. To not do so, would create even more instability and deepen the cracks in an already flawed justice system.
A small rant: While I understand the reaction.... A foundational principle of the U.S. judicial system is that everyone has a right to defend themselves against the state's charges. This means that a defense counsel may stand between a guilty person & the gov't trying to take away their liberty. That is a good thing. To my knowledge, they cannot lie in their defense but they can make an argument, even a ridiculous or hurtful one. Their role is to ensure the state proves its charges & does so within the bounds of the law & the Constitution. It is a thankless job because it is easy to judge, but it is essential .
In episode 1 I was intrigued by the information, yeah i could get into this. The first turn off was Nancys shit eating grin as she delivered some concept. The deal breaker that would have me running for the exit is "I have some really secret shit for you but you need to give me very peronal stuff about yourself. Collateral they called it, yeah? Also having to go on a diet.
I think he wanted the women to look like little girls, but that's just a hunch. Also, the phrase about screaming abuse being abuse really pissed me off. That's the entire history of rape.
At 13:50 The question "What do you mean by that?" reminds me of what Nancy said in this episode about Sarah's letter. She said "Would you answer such a letter?" I believe that was what she said. And the question made me go blank, because there is no answer to it! It's a mind game, it's a total mind f*ck. How on earth can I know if I would answer when I have never been in her position and done the things that she has? And thus never received such a letter.... It's a techinque, they make your mind go blank on purpose, and you don't even have to be traumatized by someone using that technique to go blank. I'm sure you were making perfect sense, because you are so good at explaining things. And the question actually did not have an answer because you already said exactly what you meant and it was there to understand if he wanted to.
I'm two episodes in Season 2. I think you and everyone who detracted (Ms. Piesse, Ms. Edmondson, Mr. Ames, Ms. Oxenberg, etc.) are fearless and strong. ✨️
Consider that he wanted the women thin, because he wanted them to look like pre pubescent girls. It was also a control issue. Keep proving to me your devotion. Also, giving the women their own space isolates them.
I know for me, I felt a ton of frustration watching the episode because I feel like nancy and Eduardo were only looking at the surface level. Me and one of my good friends who is getting a masters in psychology (granted her field of study is in treating people with drug and alcohol dependency issues but she finds all areas of psychology fascinating) were talking after she got a chance to watch episodes 1&2 and she said, it’s really upsetting how all the women are overlooking how vulnerable they were before entering dos and that she personally thinks nancy was willingly looking past the red flags in order to keep the business running and that Keith was really good at spotting all the vulnerable, broken people including nancy. And how Keith said you were lying and that you started a hate campaign towards was just classic master manipulation. And that it was bs that nancy was more willing to hear out Keith than call back sarah and Sarah’s call to nancy wasn’t as bad as she made it out to be. I feel like sarah was rather restrained in her call to nancy. I feel like Nancy’s biggest concern was why her company had to fold when she did nothing wrong, but if you find mold on a slice of bread, you just don’t throw away that slice. You have have throw away the whole loaf because you might not see the mold on the other slices, but it’s still embedded into that loaf. That’s how I kinda think of it. I said to my friend, that in the case of Eduardo that it’s as if he’s indebted to Keith which is why he’s supporting him and i felt so bad to nip for being in the diner looking at his former friends but knowing that they are on the wrong side (plus that sandwich did look good, I’m currently sick with a cold and any solid food looks good) and that comment about even a pound makes a difference was some fat shaming bs and like you said, she wasn’t even fat. She was a slender lady! Also your speech at the opening of the Vancouver center when you said they broke your pride really broke my heart because to have pride in my opinion is a good thing. i watched a tv show once where they were using the 7 deadly sins as a weapon against people and it said that pride was the one sin you can’t beat because there isn’t a truly selfless act. If you help someone, you in turn feel good about it and you take pride in your good deed. And that’s something that stuck with me and a “sin” that’s ok to have. because we should have a sense of pride within ourselves. I think that sense of pride helps us discover what is healthy for oneself. And one last thing before i ramble for far too much longer, I think it was very brave of you and everyone who testified on the stand especially being in front of him could have been so triggering and was to a certain degree (and that’s another thing I was going to say about being at cause, yes you can decide how you react to someone, but if that person is the trigger that you can’t do anything about. So the idea of at cause makes sense, but also what about the trigger? Are they at cause for creating your reaction? This is how I know i would have never been in esp/nxivm because i question all angles and i tend not to stop lol) and also even though you don’t like suits, you looked very handsome and dapper in your suit and i thought that was a very cute moment when Bonnie was fixing your facial hair.
This was supposed to be a humanitarian group,but What did Keith and NXIVM actually go do to earn that tittle? Did they volunteer at a homeless shelter? Did they donate money to charities? What humanitarian acts were performed? All they did was go to class
It is incredibly hard to go public about abuse, even within your own family. You'll more often than not be treated as though YOU are the problem. How dare you disrupt our generationally crafted gaslighting of each other.
The fact that nikki and Michelle can't recognise that having a man's initials branded into their crotch, whilst having to pose full frontal naked every week as anything other than wrong. Then what more can you say? If they can't see a man having super constrictive control over every aspect of their life, from personal grooming to their sex life and even their diet is him just exploiting them, then it's just sad. That's the opposite of female empowerment and I can't believe that's what they think female empowerment looks like. Shows the complete and utter disconnect from reality. I hope they wake up one day but I doubt it.
Nancy seems to be more upset over the cult ending then for the victims. I think she’s generally shocked she’s in trouble for doing something she loved. She needs help
Hey Mark... from all these true believers, Mark Elliott scares me the most. I don't know what exactly, but nothing about him seems authentic... he's got a blind stare.
the horrible things KR said in training about girls as "princesses" who are "protected" --which the community seemed to accept as true--just baffled me, since of course this is not a broad social "fact" at all. I found it very revealing about his evident misogyny, his wish to get even with all women for some perceived "injustice" or narcissistic wound from his childhood
When you were talking about Ranieri’s defense team normalizing evil and you bring up the ‘I’m just doing my job’ justification, it reminds me of when the Nazis would say ‘I was just following orders’. To me, that’s just unacceptable. You can defend your client without normalizing the evil. However, Keith Raneiri did not have much of a defense since there was so much evidence against him. So, I guess the only other thing to do is to try to normalize it? I don’t know. It just seems do gross and slimy to me. As someone who has a conscience, it’s hard for me to wrap my head around what some defense attorneys are willing to do and say.
I was raised by a covert narcissist, and your explanations, and your choices of illustrative incidents is so good I keep dissociating listening to you. Good job. I'll try to keep count, we can make it into a new Team #CPTSD drinking game. ;X
It has really bothered me how it seems like he weaponized eating disorders on these women..which I feel like is not really talked about enough. It unsettles me soooo much
Are you sure you didn't know all of the shit that was going on behind the scenes. I'm a victim of human trafficking and I get the vibe and feeling that you aren't as innocent as you portray. I apologize if I am wrong. Those curly fries sound great though....
@@eidsongregory5795 oh my God YES, I thought i was the only one. The very same DFW who threw his gf out a moving car and then stalked and terrorized her for daring to leave him. These narcissists are all the same.
@@eidsongregory5795 I know! I used to teach DFW's "This Is Water" speech to high schoolers and college freshmen, because the message therein is (still!) SO amazing and wise and True. But then the avatar/writer of that Truth, turns out to be a complete asshole--a predator--a hater of women (and, therefore, men, too!). I don't know what to do about all this. Do you?
thank you for making these. of course men can be emotionally abused. i say with kindness and care that i think you still have a lot of damaging ideas to unlearn about gender roles, heteronormartivity and gender as a binary. keep going!
what personal work did you accomplish/create to give justification to your association with nxivm. what was the end result. what piece of work do you point to and say, my association with nxivm lead me to create ? how was the world positively impacted as a result of your work with nxivm
The way Bonnie handled this left me in awe. She was able to get out on her own volition and convince others calmly and effectively, despite the crushing knowledge of how insidious the organization was and how even more insidious the man behind the org is. She stayed calm, did her research, and created the opportunity for people to wake up.
hey Mark - as someone who has watched everything I could find on this and feel somehow weirdly emotionally involved, I really appreciate these debriefs. I kind of need them oddly so thank you.
Same!
You are absolutely not alone ;o)
I’m so glad that you & Bonnie made it through together.
Amazing-just amazing. Bonnie's music is the icing on the cake for this whole documentary (I didn't know it was her voice-she is the hero of the documentary, and the others who left early and were hounded) Blessings to you both. (I felt really bad for Nancy's cat btw) And "mirroring" is a bit of a mind fuck to me.
Hi Mark I've followed your story from the very beginning, and I just want to say that , you, Sarah, and Nippy are amazing, I've been so impressed with your strength, loyalty and ethics. But I'm am absolutely blown away by Bonnie's ability to slowly and patiently show you what was happening. She is AMAZING!
Mark, you have such a beautiful way of articulating the psychological impact of all of this. Please relay to Bonnie that she is a freaking bad ass!❤
Nancy triggered me way more than I thought she would. And I realized Season 2 is perhaps harder to watch b/c of the individuals that are "still in", so much so that they leave court to avoid a victim's/ survivor's testimony. My blood pressure definitely spiked a few times during episode 2, with me wanting to scream "Get Out! Wake Up!" for THEIR sake. Masterful documentary film-making, and these recaps are so crucial to understand the deeper context. Thank you, Mark!
I have to agree.
Nancy ( I call her eyebrows) triggers me more than Keith. I find that fact very unsettling.
I wonder why?
Possibly because she involved her daughters.
I always wondered about her having a sexual relationship with Ranier.
I couldn't believe it when she admitted to.
Then she exposes her daughters to this predator.
How could she not know people were merely objects to be used as he feels necessary. For whatever purpose that will benefit him and him only.
I can say watching her get into bed with her dirty shoes on triggers me to no end as well!
I friggin love that thats bonnie singing in the beginning!! I had no idea!! Its beautiful, yet haunting
Love love your commentary-so generous. Look forward to it as much as the Vow every week. Honestly helpful for those of us in recovery from crazy town relationships/cult
I just binged all of your podcasts. I'm so grateful you decided to do this. Watching this episode was difficult for me. It was just so heart wrenching. Maybe it was seeing the loss of great friendships or maybe the disappointment that Nancy wasn't another victim, but a leader. Also, I LOVE the opening song and never skip it. So cool to learn it's Bonnie!
This was awesome. Thank you for doing these debriefs. I can only imagine how hard it is for you to relive these painful years. I’m sure it must illicit a rollercoaster of emotions for you….💪🏻
I wish I had found your channel before I watched the documentary the first time.
I'm in the middle of watching again with your commentary.
I appreciate watching you unpack this messed up life experience and heal.
I'm fascinated, horrified and saddens all at the same time.
Bonnie is my hero.
Such a brave sweet woman. I hope you both are doing well.
These videos are extremely helpful, especially to those who've had similar experiences. You & Sarah & Nippy are providing such a service - thank you. I have to say a word about Bonnie. The courage it had to take for her to speak out first was enormous. Her intuition & wisdom are amazing. You're a very lucky man. 😊
I am glad you are taking a break to take care of yourself. This episode made me grieve for so many things; and I'm not even personally involved. We all long for understanding and connection; I think it's so easy in this world to experience a bit of that and chase after ever increasing amounts of it. In my own therapy, I've done a lot of work identifying how I have tended to chase after the experience of feeling understood and interpret it as love/affection and commitment, when it's not. It's excruciatingly difficult to watch KR dangle that carrot in front of people to bait and switch and manipulate, leaving people feeling worse about themselves at the same time of making them try harder, because it's so much my own story.
Seeing Bonnie in the park across from the courthouse - the look on her face reminded me of all the times after my own trauma; sitting in the parking lot of a church and unable to go in because of panic attacks/PTSD. I am so glad that she appears to be actively making choices so she doesn't have to relive things.
I mostly just wanted to say thank you for sharing and especially debriefing, as it both inspires and helps anonymous souls like me who had no part of NXIVM or ESP, but have experienced spiritual abuse/trauma.
Side note about men who are "attracted" to women who are severely under weight, these men can also be "attracted " to children.
I came across this information from a UA-camr who herself sufferers from an e.d. She noticed these men on some e.d forums.
That was my first thought as well.
Noticed this for a while
Mark - I admire your resilience, bravery and openness. You are helping so many people, i appreciate these breakdowns even more than the series on HBO. Thank you for all you’ve done. I hope you & Bonnie are healing and happy ❤
I have to say that I have been thoroughly enjoying your podcast. I have watched all of The Vow that has been broadcast so far. When I saw those scenes in Episode 2 of season 2 filmed outside the courthouse while people who are still loyal dancing, it reminded me of Charles Manson and The Family when he was being tried for the Tate and LaBianca murders. There is a very Manson like quality about KR that permeates the entire documentary.
I am a survivor of child abuse so I understand coercive control very well indeed. So I very much applaud the strength of the people that have walked away. You and Bonnie have particularly impressed me.
Mark you doing these 'debriefs' will help alot of people! Thank you
Thank you Mark for your updates! Hopefully talking about the details is helping you process. I can’t imagine how difficult it must be rebuilding your life. I’ve never sat through a trial but 4 or 5 days of testifying seems awful to me! How many questions can they possibly ask? I couldn’t have done it. I’m praying for your healing and I have no doubt you’ll figure out a way use your experiences for good and to help others. ❤
I’m learning so much about recovering from cults from these videos! Thanks
Thank you for these videos. As a cult escapee-survivor from another group entirely, I find your observations and reactions, to your experiences and how they make you feel, really helpful as I work through my own experiences and recovery process.
A comment on Nancy Salzman's guilty plea combined with her statement "my company was destroyed and my whole life fell apart" (quote from The Vow S2 trailer).
By pleading guilty, she prevents the creation of publicly available trial records documenting the details of her crimes.
Her statement, "my company was destroyed" is in passive voice. Who destroyed her company? She did. Keith did. Alison Mack did. Her grammar is a linguistic tool to lead the listener to imagine some outside monster swooped through and destroyed her company. Her tone when she says it is one of distress and victimhood. She sounds like she is saying that someone destroyed her company unfairly, to harm her, "poor me," and that as a consequence of someone else's actions, HER life was destroyed.
Her pleading guilty without a fight, and without the presentation of evidence and witness testimony, comes across as an admission of guilt without fault. That she is guilty because she was there, but not because she is responsible for initiating, designing, or executing the harms. To use NXIVM-speak, it sounds like she is guilty by association and not "at cause."
This paired with the grammatical and tonal choices of her statements of "my company was destroyed" (by someone else), "and my whole life fell apart" (poor me victimhood phrase), sound like an NLP-DARVO manipulation strategy to me. She is, IMO, setting herself up to start the martyr-victim-come-back-for-the-true-tech-that-got-destroyed-by-those-monsters business when she comes out of prison.
This quote by Jon Atack, quoting Hubbard, (Hubbard speaking about himself), "Never trust a hypnotist."
I think this is extremely important to apply to Nancy.
Hello. Thank you for doing this.
I found it puzzling when Nancy said something like, " I think Keith was just being Keith, I blame the women. I am angry with the women" it is espe ually disturbing BC one of them women was her own daughter.
Someone sacrificing their life for KR must be the ultimate narcissistic supply...
Absolutely!!
The pavlovian thing is so interesting… Narcissists often like to put little things out there that tell on themselves. Because they enjoy duping people even more when it’s kinda obvious that they’re doing it. So i feel like the pavlovian thing on some level is saying “look, Im conditioning you” And nobody would realise the link there.. Its a game, and as long as nobody gets the link the narcissist can revel in the fact that he’s basically telling on himself and people STILL revere him and don’t understand their being manipulated.
your voracious learning and processing of these evil-systems-normalized is helping us all. More power to you. Thank you Mark! Can't wait for your book and film to come out. Nancy was Keith's instrument of fear mongering - Ivy testified. It seems to me she knew about DOS after a while but having her daughter tied up with Keith for too long - she didn't or couldn't confront it. She has too much power to lose. But she never had a heart for emotional losses piling up in her own daughter's life - outsiders still have more sympathy for Lauren than her own mother. Her vow to care for Lauren couldn't supersede her vow to work for Keith?
Each of you the early defectors also took much losses plus Keith's lawsuit looming upon you. You did yourself proud. We are so very proud of you.
The exponentially growing number of slaves in DOS was horrendous. And Keith would have ruined each of them beyond our imaginations. The Dossier women don't understand how lucky they became on their road to total ruin.
Hi Mark. There was a time when the blaming of everyone was par for the course in the new age and psychology movement, if you remember. Now it has become you are not a victim strange but a twist on the same thing actually if you think about it. Glad you mentioned this and you are mentioning in each of your videos how cult narcissist use the same techniques to manipulate empathy against us to get what they want. Strangely these techniques are now adopted by people who are not narcissistic- it has become engrained in our daily lives. Great job! ❤
Your statement at Nancy's sentencing. Now I understand a little bit more how seriously everything was upside down inside NXIVM.
I can only imagine how much courage it was needed to rise against them.
Believing and giving up those beautiful dreams. You are probably right that some of the loyalists are still stuck in those dreams (at 29:20 ) .
I participated in an online training program from the US. After little over a year of participation it ended in conflict, and I finally left. I have found many similarities, at least in my subjective perspective.
Victimhood -term still really raises my anger! Starting at 39:00 you explain “at cause” and “victim” -things and how seriously twisted it is in so many places, serving monsters' purposes. I bet they enjoy and smile inside while teaching that, knowing it opens the door for them.
I also did go into that trap, in my last personal meeting I told my trainer never to use the word victim with me. During my leaving process I thought how stupid that is. If someone stronger than me beats me up without reason, I am a victim. If someone steals from me, I am a victim. It is the truth. There is nothing to be ashamed of.
yes, without a victim - there is no perpetrator! Hence the teaching or prep.
Hi Mark. I've been watching The Vow since the beginning and you and Sarah and Susan and anyone else who got out are amazing people. I'm so glad you got the justice you deserved. I'm a new subscriber to your podcast and I love it. Much love and blessings to you and Bonnie......
Glad to see Jedi Mark in action 🗡️:) Yes, I’m a Star Wars geek too.
Thank you Mark and Bonnie for sharing your thoughts and perspective. I am glad you are taking a break. I can’t begin to understand how traumatic for you and Bonnie rehashing this part of your lives.
Hope you are enjoying the beautiful beach.
I so appreciate that you are doing these de-briefs Mark it gives so much depth to the experience of watching The Vow season 2. So many things I could say and questions - but I will just say that I am happy that you and Bonnie are doing well. Did I hear that you were writing a book? I will read it for sure. Also looking forward to your film about narcissism - one of my deep fascinations.
I admire you and Bonnie's bravery. I hope yall can carve a new life not defined by your trauma. Glad I discovered your podcast and you are writing a book. Helps me go further than surface level condemnation, and understand deeper about the intricacies of how a manipulative person operates. And how we may heal from their abuse.
Thank you for sharing your journey with us Mark.. A few thoughts on mirroring. I learned it when I trained as a Dance Movement Psychotherapist (which I no longer practice). We mostly focused on the mother/baby (or small child) dyad and how in order to soothe a baby, the mother mirrors him/her. Eg. if a baby is crying, the mothers voice/emotion/body will instinctually match her baby, thus the baby feels heard, soothed and calms down. It is very different from copying. And I don't think acting as if you are empathizing/understanding has the same soothing 'result' either. I can see how a narcissist might try to use this as a tool to their advantage, but I honestly don't think it will ever work the same way as true mirroring (how/why this observation came to be theorized), since for the narcissist there is no real connection or empathy to begin with.
I just realized; so back in 2010, I watched 'what the bleep', which launched me into a thirsty spiritual truth quest, led me down weird parapsychology routes, and ended up becoming a Dance Movement Psychotherapist... To be honest with you, I no longer agree with anything from that documentary, and find much of the therapy world breeds more confusion than peace. Its been an adventurous journey nonetheless! =)
After listening to this I went and read your statement at Nancy's sentencing. And... wow. That reallllly elucidated her involvement. And hoooo boy, the way she treated Bonnie. As a family truth teller, there were aspects to that enabler rage + gaslighting to which I could deeply relate. Talk about wanting to give someone a snotklap.
It's very much worth the read, guys. If you think NS's tone-deafness in this episode was damning...
He's the sociopath who cant communicate. She's the Communications Master narcissist. A match made in Evil's nightmares.
I was totally tuned into the vow and devoured everything I could related to it. I was cheering you guys on through it. I am 100% here for this commentary it is the deepness that I was missing up until now. Will be checking out the rest of your channel, and checking out Nippy and Sarah's as well. Very best wishes to all of you, of course including Bonnie. She was the most awesome canary!
Really interesting insights and reflections, Mark. Appreciate it - helps to understand the story and the phenomena involved in a much deeper way. All the best 🙂
I hadn't heard of fawning as a fear response before, but god it makes perfect sense. In the emotionally abusive relationship I had been in, I used to thank and compliment my abuser so often for how well they "put up with" me. And I remember at the time both feeling that it was true (in that I did feel like I was just something that needed to be put up with) but also sort of hoping that if I said they were good to me enough, maybe they'd feel compelled to live up to what I had said. But the doublethink of an abuse victim is strong, so I wouldn't let myself explore those contradictory feelings more deeply until after I had been out of the relationship for a while. Afterward, I used to beat myself up so much for complimenting how they treated me, because if part of me was hoping the compliments would compel them to treat me better that means part of me knew things were bad and I should have seen it and left. It had never occurred to be that I was complimenting them out of fear of their reaction if I actually said how they really treated me. That makes a lot of sense.
Love your debriefs Mark
Thank you, Mark. Your insight is clear, informative, and moving. As someone who has had numerous psychic experiences since I was a child (I'm not new agey), I am very uncomfortable how Reniere twisted and sullied the ideas of the nature of reality, the creative power of imagination, and taking personal responsibility for our thoughts, feelings, and beliefs that shape and define our daily lives. He emotionally masturbated all over that in the most nauseatingly and perverted way. Thank you so much for what you doing.
Lovely Mark
You are all good
Just an absolutely jolly good egg.
Bravo for your courage and strength.
Thank you for these debriefs
So insightful
I would love to hear your view at the end of all this is HOW GREAT IT IS TO VIEW AND LIVE IN REALITY THE WAY IT SHOWS UP EVERYDAY…. THAT IS NOBLE.
I found Nancy absolutely creepy. I understand it's hard to let go of the defensive delusion. Facing reality, consequences and responsibility is a decisive step not everyone has strength to take. And of that, one remain responsible, either they own it or not. In the end, we are what we do.
THANK you so much for sharing.
Agree. For someone teaching all about being at cause, she said “How did this happen” a lot! Master manipulator
@@jcny11 "How did this happen": spot on!
Muchas gracias Mark por todo lo que hace. Eres muy valiente!!
At one scene somewhat older Nancy S. is so moved with Keith, when Lauren was also involved with Keith. This floors me. Of all people, Nancy knew the tally of women in his harems - she teaches that women have to accept that for her man- she could still be okay for her own daughter Lauren (almost 3rd in command)? What mother lets her fickle one time lover to date her own daughter ? She might not have known this in the beginning, but when she suspected it - she was okay -it is sort of obvious from some of the photos.
Yes. So sad this happens in modern times in modern society.
I totally agree about Keith’s explanation about vulnerability and fear. It did not ring true at all. But his delivery is powerful. I can see why people would be pulled in. He is a master of word salad!
When Agnifilo said that Keith depended on him, it was indicative how he was being manipulated. The very fact that a lawyer as savvy as him was willing to be on film made it weirder.
Mark: is it fair to say that KR intentionally learned YOUR "symbolic language" (in this case, literary heroic journeys, i.e., Joseph Campbell, mixed with George Lucas), and then used that "symbolic language" to entangle and swindle you?
"What kind of mind sits there and watches people, and matches their tone, their pace, their body language? That's a very different kind of mind that does that."
You literally just described Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and the study of rhetoric, in general (which is why i, as a scholar of both rhetoric and ethics, effing hate those guys).
Watching this episode that focused on Nancy and the start of the trial was this the hardest to watch out of the whole series at the moment?
ITS BONNIE?!!? It's SOOOOO good!! ❤️
is there somewhere to learn more about what you said at the very end, that "a number of the women around raniere had died"? i haven't heard about any women in the "harem" dying except pam cafritz (and i know there's a bit of a conspiracy about her death). that is extremely concerning to me and seems like something that should be explored more.
The sad thing is, there will be people who follow Keith till the end. Some people just want to be controlled .I don't understand that, but to each there own. It's so scary what he was capable of having people do. That thought scares the hell out of me. Wishing all of you a very happy,healthy future
I’m by no means justifying their beliefs but hoping simply an attempt to offer some understanding. From my perspective I believe these people simply reject any further information other than what they have learnt and hear from Keith. Don’t forget, his whole operation was luring people in under false pretences, teaching them powerful techniques that he ends up using against them as control methods for complete power over them. These NLP-based teachings are designed to rewire the brain and their cognitive filters where their model and map of the world becomes one where there is no room to think or act for themselves. What Keith says is words from God in their eyes and the only source they must abide and follow. He manipulates them through charm and hypnosis language etc to believe they live for him. He applies the same techniques he teaches in ways to use against everyone.. so he can maintain complete control and over time strips them of any sense of identity or individual thought . That’s where the extreme rejection of facts and horrible information comes in. He’s programmed them to be that way. For them, the potential thought of “what if what they are saying is true”… would feel like they would have their entire world and sense of self and belonging, not to mention their whole map of the world and everything they know… robbed. This would be like an extreme death to them. So this is why some people just still follow him.
While I certainly think DOS was born out of his desire to blackmail and have more and more adoration, I think he was getting sick of having to deal with the women he was with still having a tiny bit of agency where he felt it _could_ be possible they’d get fed up with his bullshit and leave him or sleep with someone else - and he was just tired of dealing with their pressure or emotions every once in awhile so having the vow was perfect. they agree to his obedience unconditionally and so there is no more of that. he was perfectly happy to use them and abuse them for everything HE wanted but any kind of serious confrontation *ALWAYS* leads him to some kind of proverbially closet.
Interesting 👍🏻
This is so fascinating as you wonder how all you talented, intelligent people fell for it. Other cults preyed on the poor and unfortunate, but you all were doing fine in life. So just freaks me out to think how slowly he boiled the frog of all your minds. And I BET most of us think: Would I have done that? Horrorific thought -- never want to find out! SO GLAD ITS OVER FOR ALL OF YOU. Thank you.
Mark, I am new to your channel. Where do I find the "show notes" that you keep talking about?
It would be in the text below the video.
@@markvicente7 Oh ok. Thank you!
I discovered your channel yesterday and I'm watching every single video, just can't stop.
Congrats on your redemption story. 🙏
LOL - "'n snotklap"! (I'm a teacher and these days we use "warm klap"!!)
How Nancy could tell the stories she told about Keith AND claim the indisputable goodness of the program is mind boggling!
The word "moist" has never bothered me before but using it to describe the outside of KR's mouth? **shudder**
Mind blowing podcast once again. Is Nancy any better than Keith? I am having my doubts that she is. The only difference is that she didn’t sexually abuse people but she led the lambs to the slaughter coldly and calculating. Listening to her speak she portrayed herself as an innocent little flower who is guilty of nothing but being too awesome and helping too many people. She was nostalgic about her days of mindfucking and manipulating thousands of people. If there was any justice, she’d have the same sentence Keith does.
Those hairless cats ARE SO weird! LOL. I imagine Lauren picked them because they're hypoallergenic, so I'm guessing KR was allergic. As Joey on Friends said, "That's not a cat! It looks like a hand!" LOL Nancy's house decor is fecking creepy af. What's with the old lady in the corner?!
There’s no question that this youtube series is in part a hate campaign against Keith!
It’s just that Keith is also guilty!
Hey Mark what's that Afrikaans term you used? The slap thing?
Snotklap!
The lawyer who defended KR was just in it for the money and publicity, as look at who he previously defended …….. greedy, deviant men. And, the lawyer seemed proud of his win for these men. He also was very sexist, especially when he talked about the brands. ….. like the women want a brand that they latter found out were initials of their so called teacher. So, not surprised of the lawyer’s defense of KR.
So why is Nancy in season 2??? What is the reasoning behind? I saw all the people that still inside and under the spell and refuse to see reality, but I still not understand why they are there now?? They made me sick and made my blood boiled. I guess they want to tell their true, but is not such as they still not see what has really happened to everyone including them
I am hoping that they are doing like in season one, first presenting the miracle technique that cures Tourette's syndrome and then start breaking it down.
@@fbg5678 I hope so 👍🏻
Marc Elliott has been on H3H3 podcast where he was challenged. It’s quite interesting !
Matching someone's tone and body language to build rapport is actually a legit therapeutic method. It's borrowed from motivational interviewing, if I'm not mistaken.
have you read, Conversations With God?
I am listening again- there are quite a few gems in Mark's comment that are truly healing: " If you are always wrong and they are always right- get the f* out of there". Then there is the reaction of Asansolu having told or became knowledgable by the consistent media report, he CHOSE to believe the abuser and became an open member of Keith's fan club, this is so blindly narcissistic and messed up- though he seems like a nice guy.
Some of us had this horror of unprocessable pain when our own family and friends becomes openly friendly with our abuser, even after we had left the abuser. This is another level hurt-shame that our own people do to us - for whatever reason. How do they claim to be a nice person if they can walk over the fallen pain bodies of their one time friend or family to join the mastermind?
The most extreme example was that of the father of Daniela and Camilla Fernandez openly praising Keith in court how he as a runner improved his running with presumably Keith's support, never mind how unbelievable pains his entire family especially the daughters had suffered(the Judge was aghast!). Asansulo cant get past that his feelings as a father improved - never mind what the women he had considered as friends had suffered by the Keith (News: a new father is always enjoy his baby -unless nothing satisfies him)..
Isn’t this just a Scientology in disguise ?
Regarding the lawyers: I understand how hard it is to try and wrap your head around lawyers being able to defend people who have massively harmed others. In this country, lawyers are sworn to zealously defend their clients. And as I’m sure you are already aware, you are also innocent until proven guilty. It is important that lawyers hold the line by adhering to that tenet, “innocent until proven guilty,” because it is not the lawyer’s place to determine their guilt. It is the jury’s. That departmentalization (I’m assuming lawyer’s must departmentalize) is what keeps innocent people from going to jail…unfortunately, there’s still plenty of innocent people that go to jail (two things can be true) BUT MY POINT IS, I don’t think lawyers are these people that bend some universal morality in order to do their job, but that THEIR VOW is to ultimately protect ALL OF OUR constitutional right to a fair trial. To not do so, would create even more instability and deepen the cracks in an already flawed justice system.
A small rant:
While I understand the reaction....
A foundational principle of the U.S. judicial system is that everyone has a right to defend themselves against the state's charges. This means that a defense counsel may stand between a guilty person & the gov't trying to take away their liberty. That is a good thing.
To my knowledge, they cannot lie in their defense but they can make an argument, even a ridiculous or hurtful one.
Their role is to ensure the state proves its charges & does so within the bounds of the law & the Constitution.
It is a thankless job because it is easy to judge, but it is essential .
For consent : look at the Nuremberg Code. It is the basis for all research and surgery activities. There is standard language that is used globally.
In episode 1 I was intrigued by the information, yeah i could get into this. The first turn off was Nancys shit eating grin as she delivered some concept. The deal breaker that would have me running for the exit is "I have some really secret shit for you but you need to give me very peronal stuff about yourself. Collateral they called it, yeah? Also having to go on a diet.
Thank you
I think he wanted the women to look like little girls, but that's just a hunch. Also, the phrase about screaming abuse being abuse really pissed me off. That's the entire history of rape.
Exactly right!
At 13:50 The question "What do you mean by that?" reminds me of what Nancy said in this episode about Sarah's letter. She said "Would you answer such a letter?" I believe that was what she said. And the question made me go blank, because there is no answer to it! It's a mind game, it's a total mind f*ck. How on earth can I know if I would answer when I have never been in her position and done the things that she has? And thus never received such a letter.... It's a techinque, they make your mind go blank on purpose, and you don't even have to be traumatized by someone using that technique to go blank.
I'm sure you were making perfect sense, because you are so good at explaining things. And the question actually did not have an answer because you already said exactly what you meant and it was there to understand if he wanted to.
We do get alot out of it mark
I'm two episodes in Season 2. I think you and everyone who detracted (Ms. Piesse, Ms. Edmondson, Mr. Ames, Ms. Oxenberg, etc.) are fearless and strong. ✨️
When I saw those cats, I joked to myself that only villains have hairless cats.
They were very ugly things.
Consider that he wanted the women thin, because he wanted them to look like pre pubescent girls. It was also a control issue. Keep proving to me your devotion. Also, giving the women their own space isolates them.
So.... Eduardo heard and knew about Daniela and Camila and still finds this all okay? He's still in?!
I know for me, I felt a ton of frustration watching the episode because I feel like nancy and Eduardo were only looking at the surface level. Me and one of my good friends who is getting a masters in psychology (granted her field of study is in treating people with drug and alcohol dependency issues but she finds all areas of psychology fascinating) were talking after she got a chance to watch episodes 1&2 and she said, it’s really upsetting how all the women are overlooking how vulnerable they were before entering dos and that she personally thinks nancy was willingly looking past the red flags in order to keep the business running and that Keith was really good at spotting all the vulnerable, broken people including nancy. And how Keith said you were lying and that you started a hate campaign towards was just classic master manipulation. And that it was bs that nancy was more willing to hear out Keith than call back sarah and Sarah’s call to nancy wasn’t as bad as she made it out to be. I feel like sarah was rather restrained in her call to nancy. I feel like Nancy’s biggest concern was why her company had to fold when she did nothing wrong, but if you find mold on a slice of bread, you just don’t throw away that slice. You have have throw away the whole loaf because you might not see the mold on the other slices, but it’s still embedded into that loaf. That’s how I kinda think of it.
I said to my friend, that in the case of Eduardo that it’s as if he’s indebted to Keith which is why he’s supporting him and i felt so bad to nip for being in the diner looking at his former friends but knowing that they are on the wrong side (plus that sandwich did look good, I’m currently sick with a cold and any solid food looks good) and that comment about even a pound makes a difference was some fat shaming bs and like you said, she wasn’t even fat. She was a slender lady! Also your speech at the opening of the Vancouver center when you said they broke your pride really broke my heart because to have pride in my opinion is a good thing. i watched a tv show once where they were using the 7 deadly sins as a weapon against people and it said that pride was the one sin you can’t beat because there isn’t a truly selfless act. If you help someone, you in turn feel good about it and you take pride in your good deed. And that’s something that stuck with me and a “sin” that’s ok to have. because we should have a sense of pride within ourselves. I think that sense of pride helps us discover what is healthy for oneself.
And one last thing before i ramble for far too much longer, I think it was very brave of you and everyone who testified on the stand especially being in front of him could have been so triggering and was to a certain degree (and that’s another thing I was going to say about being at cause, yes you can decide how you react to someone, but if that person is the trigger that you can’t do anything about. So the idea of at cause makes sense, but also what about the trigger? Are they at cause for creating your reaction? This is how I know i would have never been in esp/nxivm because i question all angles and i tend not to stop lol) and also even though you don’t like suits, you looked very handsome and dapper in your suit and i thought that was a very cute moment when Bonnie was fixing your facial hair.
What appeared ESPECIALLY creepy is the adulation for KR.. he seemed to disassociate during the times people were worshipping him.
This was supposed to be a humanitarian group,but What did Keith and NXIVM actually go do to earn that tittle? Did they volunteer at a homeless shelter? Did they donate money to charities? What humanitarian acts were performed? All they did was go to class
It is incredibly hard to go public about abuse, even within your own family. You'll more often than not be treated as though YOU are the problem. How dare you disrupt our generationally crafted gaslighting of each other.
Well said!!
The fact that nikki and Michelle can't recognise that having a man's initials branded into their crotch, whilst having to pose full frontal naked every week as anything other than wrong. Then what more can you say? If they can't see a man having super constrictive control over every aspect of their life, from personal grooming to their sex life and even their diet is him just exploiting them, then it's just sad. That's the opposite of female empowerment and I can't believe that's what they think female empowerment looks like. Shows the complete and utter disconnect from reality. I hope they wake up one day but I doubt it.
Nancy seems to be more upset over the cult ending then for the victims. I think she’s generally shocked she’s in trouble for doing something she loved. She needs help
Hey Mark... from all these true believers, Mark Elliott scares me the most. I don't know what exactly, but nothing about him seems authentic... he's got a blind stare.
the horrible things KR said in training about girls as "princesses" who are "protected" --which the community seemed to accept as true--just baffled me, since of course this is not a broad social "fact" at all. I found it very revealing about his evident misogyny, his wish to get even with all women for some perceived "injustice" or narcissistic wound from his childhood
When you were talking about Ranieri’s defense team normalizing evil and you bring up the ‘I’m just doing my job’ justification, it reminds me of when the Nazis would say ‘I was just following orders’. To me, that’s just unacceptable. You can defend your client without normalizing the evil. However, Keith Raneiri did not have much of a defense since there was so much evidence against him. So, I guess the only other thing to do is to try to normalize it? I don’t know. It just seems do gross and slimy to me. As someone who has a conscience, it’s hard for me to wrap my head around what some defense attorneys are willing to do and say.
You couldn't get a pet without his permission? What?!
I was raised by a covert narcissist, and your explanations, and your choices of illustrative incidents is so good I keep dissociating listening to you. Good job. I'll try to keep count, we can make it into a new Team #CPTSD drinking game. ;X
4:40 it's not DARVO, it's gaslighting.
It has really bothered me how it seems like he weaponized eating disorders on these women..which I feel like is not really talked about enough. It unsettles me soooo much
Why do you say ‘we will talk so’? You are the only one talking….
Are you sure you didn't know all of the shit that was going on behind the scenes.
I'm a victim of human trafficking and I get the vibe and feeling that you aren't as innocent as you portray.
I apologize if I am wrong. Those curly fries sound great though....
Did he have a cat allergy?
No, but I believe he generally did not like animals!
@@markvicente7 doesn't the way he talks remind you of David Foster Wallace a little?
@@eidsongregory5795 oh my God YES, I thought i was the only one. The very same DFW who threw his gf out a moving car and then stalked and terrorized her for daring to leave him. These narcissists are all the same.
@@hagar9842 Wha!? He did that? I don't know much about him outside of the work. His books have meant so much t o me. 'Been lifesaving not unliterally.
@@eidsongregory5795 I know! I used to teach DFW's "This Is Water" speech to high schoolers and college freshmen, because the message therein is (still!) SO amazing and wise and True.
But then the avatar/writer of that Truth, turns out to be a complete asshole--a predator--a hater of women (and, therefore, men, too!).
I don't know what to do about all this. Do you?
Cats… ok. Thats was a weird comment. What did they do to you?
thank you for making these. of course men can be emotionally abused. i say with kindness and care that i think you still have a lot of damaging ideas to unlearn about gender roles, heteronormartivity and gender as a binary. keep going!
what personal work did you accomplish/create to give justification to your association with nxivm. what was the end result. what piece of work do you point to and say, my association with nxivm lead me to create ? how was the world positively impacted as a result of your work with nxivm