I was thinking the same thing. The way he gaslit Isabella made me so mad. Even her family gaslit her. Especially her father and grandmother. It’s as if they were saying “ so what if Kieth and the organization did horrible and illegal things, as long as that damn Turrets is gone, ignore it!” I felt so bad for Isabella in that moment.
First Mark & Bonnie, THANK YOU. Your courage has made a tremendous difference in so many lives. Second, who tf are these people criticizing your pronunciation?!? As if that matters in the *slightest*. Sheesh. I always enjoy the rich variety of language & sound in our world, and I enjoy listening to you. Kudos!
as a daughter of a narcissistic parent I feel so validated by the way you view this whole complex experience. thank you so much for sharing. sending you and Bonnie and everyone a hug from Brazil!
The way you have unpacked all of this and are able to articulate is beyond impressive. Episode 2 left me feeling that Nancy was just as much the enemy as Keith, but now I'm shifting back to her being one of the most abused victims. Difficult to analyze 20 years of her story in just a few episodes. I'm not trying to sound creepy when I say how enamored I was with Isabella. You can visually see how broken her spirit is when you compare the older videos of her, even with her ticks. Several triggers for me watching the video call between her and Mark. She handled it with such intelligence and grace. She is so perceptive and confident. I think her father is just so desperate for her to be ok, he maybe isn't willing to understand and accept the level of abuse she actually endured.
I agree about Isabella’s dad. I think if he realized the abuse his daughter endured, a natural emotional response from a loving parent would be he failed to protect her. He possibly at the time this was filmed, he was still coming to grips with everything and still working things out.
@@jrdr2000 I find it interesting how little mental abuse is acknowledged/accepted/understood versus physical and verbal. It definitely takes a level of emotional intelligence that maybe some don't possess. What do you think? I love when her mother asked the father how he was able to separate things into categories. How much is one (or a father) willing to sacrifice to 'eliminate' Tourette's?
Just found your podcast. I’m from America and I love your accent! It’s so different from what I hear usually. Your voice is also just at the tenor that is just very soothing. I also love Bonnie’s lovely accent. It’s just amazing. The fact that she’s such a sweet soul just radiates from her. Like a glow! Thank you for doing this. I watched The Vow, as well as Seduced, and any other documentary I could find. Cults are fascinating to me. It’s so interesting to learn from you.
I'm so grateful for your debrief of this episode in particular. I'm the mom of a young adult with Tourette's (TS). Try raising a child with a very visible and very misunderstood disorder, one with horrible social stigma and where the only treatments are (in many cases) worse than living with the disease. Then observe the smug arrogance of KR and NS that they could just swoop in and "cure" TS with their 'tech'. What a message to send: "Your condition is entirely your own fault - you just don't want to do the work to fix it." My heart broke for the young woman who experienced relief but then had to confront the reality of what it had cost her. Mark, I really appreciate your willingness to confront your own role in the things that happened, and your dedication to bringing it all to light. ((
My spouse has tourettes and watching this episode was difficult. Listening to your debrief helped clear so much up that the show left unsaid. Thank you for keeping these free and sharing your view point. It's so important to get this kind of insight on these episodes.
I think the way you speak is fantastic Mark! It just adds the spark to the your unique perspective on the world ! I too will now use "K-no-wee Ho-Wee! " its perfectly fun and quirky!! :-) Sending you and Bonnie all the best wishes that you continue to find joy in your life!
Mark, thank you for sharing. Some of us are watching friends and family fall to cults of personality and politics. Your gut wrenching delivery of, "Nobody joins a cult!" helps me remember who they were before. Isabella and her parents broke my heart. Prayers for continued recovery to you all. So glad you're on the other side! :)
I was just amazed at Isabella at what an incredible and brave woman she is. She recognized what was going on and the level of control and abuse she was experiencing and also found out about DOS and she got out. What saddens me and angers me at the same time was when she talked about how she was under pressure to be fully cured from this illness because it makes Keith and the organization look better. That made my blood boil. They are putting this enormous stress and pressure on people that have had negative responses their whole lives to stress and pressure and all to give cover to Keith and the organization. In this episode it was clear that there is absolutely nothing that Marc Elliot would be unable to excuse or look the other way at in regards to Keith. He is convinced that he is curing an illness and that is all he can see. I fear for him and the damage that was and will be done to him until he wakes up from this.
Extremely moving episode. Isabella is a wonderfully insightful brave woman. Nancy Salzman I am not sure if I would ever trust what she says, although it seems evident that she was the victim of abuse herself. I've just looked at the Dos women reactions, there are 3 parts! I will watch their responses as it's very good to see and hear them also. This episode said so much about narcissistic systems and gaslighting. I am so aware of the suffering of all involved. This is not entertainment, it is an education. For a long time now, I have felt our schools and colleges need to have modules about narcissistic systems in society.
@@karenlangley9979 anyone who sees women being branded and hears the tape and I know he heard it, as it was played in court, would know Reniere is a serial rapist, kidnapper and sadistic sex adductor all in one. He cannot explain away Renuere giving advice to Mack on how the branding should be done. Case closed, Marc us as bad as he knows it and defends it.
I think he goes against his morals by NOT setting up a separate practice to help others with Tourette’s. Instead he pours his energy into his felon friend and uses the backlash as an excuse as to why he cannot go back to helping others.
I am rewatching the vow parts 1 & 2 then following each episode with your debrief. This episode really hits the feels. You can see Isabel trying to explain to her family how she feels but can’t verbalize it. Thank you for this podcast and I look forward to you upcoming episodes.
You explain the dynamic very vell. And how you talk about the importance of caring about peoples souls touch my heart. You are needed in this soulless time.
Thank you for your debiefs Mark, they are very insightful and I'm always looking forward to hearing your reaction to the episodes. I think what struck me the most in this one was the reaction of Isabella's father towards what she was expressing. I felt so bad for her that he wasn't understanding that her progress with her Tourette's came at a very heavy price, and that she was clearly traumatized by the whole experience! She could have done all this healing in a healthy environment, but that's not how it happened, and the fact that he wasn't able to acknowledge that was really upsetting. Everyting about NXIVM is upsetting, really...
All your debriefs are just so helpful! I think you and everybody else who have been in such a controlling environment for so long and woken up, have incredibly valuable experience to share. And when you can articulate it, like not everybody can, it's even more valuable. And even make films? That's just too good to be true, imagine having this stuff about narcs out on film, like the unraveling of the cult was captured! When you talked about at about 26:40 in how somebody had used language that made you think they were still brainwashed by the leader, that made me understand why I was so reluctant to answer a person myself not long ago. I had a bad feeling but could not understand why. Now I know, flying monkeys. People who act as flying monkeys, don't usually know! They are just used by the narcissist. They will use them and the person will act in good faith. Good to know.
Hi mark and bonnie, first off I'm HUGE fan! You both did amazing things by breaking free of NMIVM and taking down such a corrupt organization. I have deeply researched your story and the rest of the esp survivors and I am so grateful for humanity that you both exist and did all you could do to help all of your friends, the world needs more people like you both. I watched the vow, seduced and all of the news coverage on this story because I think it is so valuable to learn from others and to learn just how vulnerable we are as humans in our quest for meaning in this strange and cruel world. I must confess i didn't fully comprehend how seductive Nacy was until this third episode of the Vow. I was watching her talk and all of a sudden I had this weird feeling and I though OMG that is exactly how she hooked people. I knew who she was and what she was about and yet as she was speaking I still felt this unexplainable feeling about what she was saying and how she said it. I'm so sorry for the pain that you all have lived through and I'm thankful again for you all sharing your journey, just know in your hearts that you are now truly making the world a better place. Sending you healing vibes and praying for your happiness.
I continue to be horrified by the loyalists that will defend the indefensible. Marc Elliot speaking with Isabella is immediately gaslighting her, telling her the branding isn’t true and that she’s trusting the wrong people. I was gobsmacked. He even said himself after she explains women thought they were getting a tattoo, not Keith ranieres initials on their crotch that would be illegal that would be assault. So he knows it’s disgusting but there is no way his precious vanguard would ever use the organization as a sex ring. Well I think we all now know that’s exactly what he turned it into a sex ring of coercion and blackmail called dos. Just because something good happened to marc and his Tourette’s is gone that doesn’t make the company safe and legit. I can’t believe he still defends him to this day.
Thank you so much for sharing your story with us! ❤ I can really see how valuable Nancy was as Keith’s number 2. She is so convincing and can act so loving and compassionate when she wants to. I can see how she was able to control people. She can also drum up any emotion she wants you to feel and has been doing it for so long I wonder if she even notices she’s doing it. She’s so good at lying it’s easy to forget she was a monster that enjoyed the power she wielded over others and sacrificed her own children for that worship. Nancy is just as dangerous as Keith and I wish she was in prison too.
@katiecoolady - a voice for victims Is she right now? Really? I’m just on the journey watching the show week to week and haven’t investigated further. When I saw that ankle bracelet I thought maybe she got herself a nice plea deal but if she’s currently in prison that makes me really happy!
@katiecoolady - a voice for victims Thank you for the update! Nancy will never change. Now that she’s tasted the power I wonder if she’ll try to restart the cult when she gets out with Keith’s remaining loyal followers. She’ll rename it and start small and finally be the top guy.
Hi Mark, I wonder if you'd be interested in revisiting what the bleep do we know? I saw your film in my early 20's when I was a wild and free idealouge traveling europe and my mind in all the ways possible, spiritually and metaphysically. I found it incredibly gratifying to see how you connected spirituality with modern science. But it did that in such a way that it let some (in hindsight) very wrong core assumptions about the world become part of my identity and part of many conversations I was having at the time. I would wax lyrical about how I can change the physical world just by thinking it that way, how I could manifest positivity and world-change just by acting like things were better - if I wore colourful clothes and bounced around the house (like the main charcheters friend) things would better etc. But now I see that that theory is fundamentally about control, in much the same way ESP has been built. It bred a kind of toxic positivity in me and some of my friends, such that we would ostrisize people with depression and people going through problems, or people being abused because they just weren't manifesting hard enough. "watch what the bleep!" we would say, as if it were some anitodote. Later in life I became a skeptic, in the 'skeptical-movement' sense of the world - researching areas where public understanding was in conflict the findings we get from modern science. And I saw 'what the bleep' in that new light, as a film about gaslighting the younger generation of milinials who wanted desperately to feel special and in control of the world and themselves. All you had to do was understand the double slit experiment and realise how that related to how you perceive the world! - spoiler alert, it doesn't. I wonder how you see that film today? Do you agree with any of these points? and would you be interested in doing a 'debrief' on it? I'd love to hear your perspective because that film really was part of the zeitgeist of an era within my community.
I’ve learned more about covert narcissism and emotional abuse from your podcast. I was married to a covert narcissist for almost 27 years. What you said about Nancy, that she couldn’t see the abuse until she was out from under it is so true. I didn’t realize that I was being emotionally abused until he walked out for another woman. One day he was the man I knew and the next was this vindictive, nasty stranger. Gaslighting is insidious. I’m disabled, with chronic pain; sometimes I need a wheelchair. He used that against me constantly, making me feel guilty for things I couldn’t control. I think that’s why I’m so fascinated and horrified by what you all went through. You’re really helping others heal too.
Years ago I left two narcissists - and now - thanks to UA-cam, I know the signs of a narcissist, and won't be fooled again. UA-cam is filled with lots of great information about narcissists - and how to heal in the aftermath of leaving one. Wishing you all the best in your life as you move forward!
So immensely grateful for your thoughtfulness and deep understanding on these issues, themes and the people involved. You express things so effectively and it’s always impactful. I’m studying narcissism at the moment so your videos are like brain food, truly. I appreciate them deeply! Thank you so much Mark 🙏 x
Thank you for unpacking this episode. I so enjoy watching these and especially this episode I struggled to put into the words what was so wrong about this episode. What was bothering me and you did a great job and helped me organize my own thoughts.
Thanks so much Mark - so informative and thought provoking as usual. As well as having doubled down on their loyalty since all this happened do you think the remaining loyalists are enjoying their new status as the last remaining true believers? The most loyal ? And now there is no one above them and they get to have status and be in charge ?
Mark Elliot is scared that if he disavows Keith, his Tourette’s will return. Oh Mark, you healed yourself. You are allowed to take credit for that. Please if you are unwilling to listen to anything unpleasant about Keith, at the very least please be open to the fact that maybe some people had a negative experience.
@Bloom Tik Bloom Yes he wants to carry on the work. But unfortunately for him, as a man, and not fully able to understand what sex trafficking is, or rape, or coercion. He is choosing not only to stand front and centre with a narcissist con man, who used the work of others, plagurisedNLP and ordinary psychological studies. And it was Nancy who did this study, she was the one who treated them. Is it naivety with Mark? He should speak to some of the victims before making a stand for an absolute monster. Keith is still being investigated for the deaths of three of his girlfriends, It doesn’t make you stupid if you are fully taken in by a con job like Keith, but FFS at least hear some of the victims out,
@Bloom Tik Bloom He has gone through a baptism of fire. He started off with a condition which made him visible and noticeable when he navigated through society. He managed with his own personal hardwork to allay it in a manner which personally satisfied him. Keith isn’t going to be able to do anything behind bars, and if Mark bothered to read the ruling in full, he would realise Keith ain’t going anywhere. And if Keith is this magnanimous man he would hand his work to Mark and say, there, take it, see what you can do. Mark will never understand what it feel like to be coerced, sexually manipulated by someone, just as I, will never know what it feels like to have Tourette’s. Mark needs to put on his big boy pants and step up, If there’s a treatment there, then he should get a team of people around him and start making some moves. He is so caught up in the mythology of Keith, that his logic and practical thinking have flown out the window. Good people do bad things Mark. Keith done a lot of bad things, and he got caught, and sent to jail for them. Seems to me Nancy was the brains behind the Tourette’s research anyway, she was the only one who actually went to college.
It was hard to watch Isabella with her family and see that they measured “success” with wether or not she still ticked. It seemed that was all that mattered. No matter the cost. Even the grandma, was thanking baby Jesus for the removal of Tourette’s. Like just as long as you are “normal”, it doesn’t matter what happened, or what you went through. Her value as a person was measured by her ticking. Thats how it comes off to me. She seemed like she didn’t want to say anything bad about ESP because the family was so overjoyed by the results. My heart goes out to her because its almost as if shes being forced to agree with her father to remain in his good graces and avoid a possible argument with him. We dont know what abuses she may have had to endure while undergoing this treatment. I have a 16 year old son with autism, and he has some tics, and i know there are people even in my family that do not value him like a neuro typical person . That if he could just be “cured” of his autism wouldn’t he be amazing. And its like, if he was cured, he wouldn’t be who he is, and i value and love him as he is. If my child said they had to go through penance for this behavior, id be very angry and very dangerous. Taking her off her meds was very dangerous. Fortunately she made it through. So much in this episode.
First off, I love your accent. I think because you have such a soften accent because you’ve spent a lot of your life outside of South Africa, it has adjusted, but I love your accent. I was super excited to see this episode because the whole thing about how esp “cured” Tourette’s was the thing I wondered about because in the case of Marc and Isabella those are extreme cases. My brother’s ex fiancé has Tourette’s but it was very mild. She would tap her fingers on her head when she was excited (which was very cute) and couldn’t learn how to drive because the anxiety of being behind the wheel made her always take her hands off the steering wheel. I feel bad that Marc is voluntarily ignoring all the bad things because esp helped him so much. I said this about Eduardo, it’s like they are indebted to keith because esp made them better people in their eyes. It’s just sad. It reminded me of a video I watched the other day on myers Briggs personality types and how they would be as villains. And in the video, the ISFP has poison ivy from Batman as the example of them. That they arent necessarily a bad person but that they get so caught up in their beliefs and feelings and they ignore right from wrong. Poison ivy isn’t wrong about saving the environment but willing to harm others in order to save the planet isn’t very humanitarian. Also it was interesting to watch an episode that didn’t feature you, or Bonnie, nippy and we got a replay of Sarah’s message but it might be my favorite episode so far but I feel like next week will only just top this one.
Thank you for your insights. I’m having difficulty viewing Mark Elliott as a “good” human being. The fact that he had already decided he would support KR years before DOS if he had learned KR was guilty of rape paints him as more of a selfish misogynist who cares more for his Tourette’s study than people who deserve his compassion. I feel the same about Eduardo with his ultra right-wing macho BS. That he could say he saw good in DOS is astounding. So, it bothers me when you say they are both good men. They are not. Whatever may have made then good earlier in their lives is long gone. They are the people they are portraying to the world and they most likely will never change. I do understand that they are “controlled” and you are describing what you believe is their essence. But, it tends to relieve them of their responsibility for their abhorrent views and actions. That said, your debriefs are wonderful and very thoughtful. You are a good man.
Thank you. You got the knewweeehewwee! One thing struck me in Ep 3. I walked away from my computer with headphones and was listening to Marc Elliot talk to Isabella, but I thought it was Keith! Came back to see it was Marc. Same speech inflections. He sounded like Zombie Keith. Ep 3 did make me empathize Nancy. Not completely, but she really did have to shut up when VANGUARD the CREEP spoke, didn't she
Your accent is not mispronounced…. It is just yours. we don’t all sound like Americans and don’t want to. I’m Australian. Thank you for your thoughtful analysis and your honesty
I adore your accent. I’m sorry people with nothing better to do have to bully people for being smarter than them. Please know they are just an unfortunate vocal minority. Thank you so much for these videos. You have some invaluable insight and I always find your introspection fascinating and educational. All love. ❤
Just an addendum on Isabella (whom I think is just a strong inspiring young woman!) but what always bothered me in the Vow 1 was when Isabella had an EM with Nancy and Nancy said she (Isabella) was like a real person. Like wth??! She is a real person with or without tics! That always bothered me and showed the layer of abuse and twisted thinking on Nancy's part...it just hurt my heart to hear that she said such a thing to Isabella.
That really bothered me too. Basically saying she held no value as a person if she had tics. My son has autism, and he is devalued and dismissed by people all the time. It makes me very angry and sad. It’s so sad to think that this young woman had to feel shame in order to stop ticking that can’t be healthy and mentally not at all.
Also, she reaches to deny emotions and change them, which, imo, can be very dangerous. There is nothing wrong with letting off steam or feeling hurt or becoming emotional. You don’t have to get a PhD in it, but we have emotions for a reason. They’re important. Suppressing them can be very dangerous when you hit 40 and start feeling insane because one did notacknowledge their emotions. Cults are just bad..
I’ve got to say, this has been a tough series to watch bcs of my own personal experience. I’ve watched both sides, the women of Dos and your side - and it really is quite emotional, I can see both sides. Even if the portrayal media wise, isn’t completely accurate, I will say for those of us that have been in relationships with these types of psychopaths/narcissistic malignant exploitation type personalities, I know from my own experiences - the methods that are being exposed in this series- are very real and afterwards, it will make one feel as if their very soul was slowly scalped out of them and the malignant personality had placed themselves inside of the person while still feasting on their soul. The journey back home to ourselves is one that takes every ounce of their being. I’m glad you brought up the aspects of cognitive behavioral therapies that can be used to help ourselves emotionally/mentally/physically bcs those therapies can help us identify and work through/heal the root issues and the therapy even helps after this type of abuse. It’s the malignant personalities who will exploit these practices to gain a sense of power and control over a person…. Which is why the root of an issue is never helped. It’s exploited. I’ve seen ppl begin to use the same abusive tactics in order to gain the approval of the leader. I do believe that their being was actually being parasited off of…. So it’s interesting that the group was proclaiming others were parasites when they didn’t do or act like the actual parasite involved here (Keith). A form of unconsciously projecting. When ppl wake up to the abuse, there is so much shame and guilt they have to work through due to the types of behavior that was allowed/coerced/and GROOMED into by the abuser under the illusion… but if they work through all of that, they will find that buffer of grace in their own love and sovereignty that can never truly be taken away from them. Thank you for showing how real these methods are while also revealing the painful process of healing when one does start to recover from these experiences. This is a huge step in the right direction for our culture learning about healthier boundaries and learning how to value those boundaries by saying no when there is an attempt to cross/exploit the values that lay in the sovereignty of a person behind the protection of a boundary. I was drawn to this series bcs of you. Your “what the bleep” rocked my mind when I was younger. I’m so excited for your covert narcissism documentary. It’s going to help so many. Big hugs and big thanks to you and everyone that has been brave enough to tell their story!! ❤
Watching Marc on the H3 Podcast having done no research on the show or Ethan Klein (who has tourettes) was just incredible. It's interesting to hear your take as someone who knew him.
It's very interesting what you say that in the end it became very much about taking the punishment for others... That's a great way to control a group of people, and I was thinking where have we seen something similar to that lately? It's funny how narcs all follow the same script.
I had a very strong reaction to Isabella's story. I can't imagine how much energy it would take to constantly control the impulses of Tourette's 24hrs of every day of your life. I suffer from constant chronic pain & am able to hide my pain from others & not show it outwardly, but it takes a lot of energy. If I am around people constantly for more than a couple days I start crying uncontrollably for no reason, just from the exhaustion of controlling it. And that requires nowhere near the level of energy Isabella would have to expend controlling her impulses. And there's an even a deeper question of if all that energy is worth it. I hide my pain from others, but it is still there throbbing & aching every second of every day. I just don't let others see how bad it is. So ultimately, I am using a lot of energy & concentration just to make others feel more comfortable around me. Is that what Isabella is doing? Does she still have the triggers, but is just suppressing the outward ticks that make her condition apparent to others & therefore makes them uncomfortable? The constant energy & concentration that would take to maintain would make it so hard to even think straight. Is she giving up her ability to think clearly & do things that require more thought or concentration just so others are comfortable around her? That would explain why she no longer paints.
Great video, thanks! + Degrading someone because of their accent is one of the most idiotic things ever. Especially with English which has like a million dialects and accents. Everyone is unique and everyone speaks differently. Nothing abnormal or to be ashamed about.
Regarding the Tourette's control (I say control, not cure) My father managed to stop drinking on his own for 15 years-he white knuckled it. But he refused any treatment for the disease. He stopped drinking and remained miserable and bitter with very little enjoyment of life (a dry drunk) Eventually he relapsed and drank himself to death. I saw similarities in Isabella's father's reaction to the fact that she had stopped the tics-a very superficial approach to a deeply routed and complicated disorder.
Your breakdown layer by layer because it’s so complicated it would be fascinating to read the trial credit transcripts I messaged you before and I thought I think I told you my last message that Bonnie I bought her album her CD at virgin records in Vancouver because I used to live in Vancouver and I told you I went to the Nexium centre and I thought oh my God these people are weird and I worked at Jenny Craig and yeah and anyways talk about a little bit Kulti but the way you break everything down The way you break everything down layer by layer and unwrap the psychology is is very interesting you know it’s like you guys were wrapped up and now you’re peeling back the layers of the onion and I absolutely understand what you’re saying your podcasts are not only interesting and informative but you’re highly intelligent and sensitive and we all have our our areas to improve in life but we all have our days and I like what you said about Isabella how she managed to retain her soul and I remember messaging Mark Elliot three years ago seeing the person that I was the most worried about with him and he does look So sad and so torn but you know in his gut he knows the right thing but he’s controlling it because if he lets go of the control I think he’s afraid the Tourette’s will come back I think you’re right on the right right on
Mark have you done an interview with Aaron Smith Levin Growing up in Scientology. There are so much similarities. You and him would have a very interesting interview and a lot of people would watch it.
I wrote a comment I’m just almost finishing the end of your dBrief I looked for right after I watch the vowel last night I talk in my phone Mr. Vicente so I remember about three years ago I went onto UA-cam and I typed in Mark Elliott and I sent him a message and I said something about I don’t remember exactly what I wrote because I don’t wanna“ myself but what I remember feeling is I basically said in in however I wrote it at the time that I was worried about him out of anybody and I can’t comprehend what he’s going through but you know I could relate to coming out of the wheelchair and it was scary when I wasn’t sick anymore because and I’m talking about emotionally because I get depressed and there is a certain amount of control but I guess what I’m trying to say is that I could relate to him and in certain ways because in someways giving up being ill then I’d have to really find out who I am but it sounds like he knew who he was before he had Tourette’s or before he went to Nancy and Keith are Ineri and or they should call Lynn Keith Erie that’s what they should call him Kerscary. Universe forgive me for some of what I wrote but honestly I just I was worried about that man and I don’t even know who he is you know like but I genuinely was worried about him my dad always used to say that I was altruistic meaning I had no intention of anything and I remember when I was four or five or six I was very young my grandmother who is 96 is still alive and she’s Ukrainian and I didn’t understand why nobody helped her on the farm in the morning and I asked my uncle and my aunt who are still alive in my Bubba is still alive and it’s BABe a I said do you remember that and they said yes and I said how many kids would would ask that and they said either not many or none I can’t remember which it was and I’ve always been empathetic with with morals and so on goals and that’s good and you know when you were talking about fear that’s what Jenny Craig did they led by fear and I think that’s why I got laid off they were 20 of 88 of us that got laid off and I just was a Vancouver granola crunching grouse grind as I lived in North Van and lived right down the street from Sara as it turns out which I thought was really funny when I saw her on TV because I remember her from a movie my ex-husband and I watched Chris who works at BC IT and he makes brilliant films but it any rate I forget what I was talking about oh Mark Elliot very worried about him and the reason I was talking about myself is because somebody wants told me that I was the most naïve person they’ve ever met in their life and how eccentric and odd I was because I can’t ever see the bad in people but I’m learning to have better judgement that way I don’t know where that got disconnected but it wasn’t through Nexium a Jenny Craig I’ll tell you that
Nancy Salzman is a psychiatrist and maybe it’s true she was unknowingly victimized but I think she knew she was but she didn’t say anything which goes to what she says about how her mother treated her and how Nancy even being educated did that to her kids and so what that shows all of us is we’re only human that’s why cracks me up but you know I don’t know I don’t know anyways keep going I’m almost finished your podcast tonight but I had to interject ride forget these thoughts
FYI ~ People who make fun of the way other people speak English usually don’t speak multiple languages they have no idea what it takes to make sounds in other languages that are foreign to them.
Your accent is fine don’t sweat it! Maybe KR thought of HIMSELF as a stimulus response machine? In that he could not feel real emotions so he thought of himself almost as a human robot?
Mark.. when you were talking of advertising & psy-ops. Did Nxivm ever toy with the idea of an "app" to surveil people. Seems something right down their alley. Possibly Raniere was too lazy to ever develop of imagine this. Your dialect when speaking the plural of women..(where it sounds like the singular woman) was one thing from Season one that I noticed. Bonnie had an amazing internal compass that pointed to true North when she knew instinctively to "Get Out" which truly impressed me. Thanks. PTM
You speak very good English 👍 Well educated but the profanity isn’t necessary. You’re interesting to listen to. I like this video. I like talking about my father’s heritage too. First I heard of this channel. I like your narrative. Thanks a lot 🇲🇽
I would love for you to present the happy times too. Having breakfast with your brethren, the excitement that had you stand up and praise genuinely your teachers. I need some synthesis rather than everything was toxic. Perhaps you see it that way but whenever someone has a view dominated by one side, one flavor, I long for what they are not saying. No disrespect intended towards the suffering.
Hi, just finished watching everything. I know Allison Mack gave up the tape, but three years., that’s absurd. It’s not like they wouldn’t get that tape with ten tears which is fair. She invented the brand and likely got girls to sleep with this GNOME, I think it was so unjust for her to get only three years. And Nancy is lying. Saying she had to admit guilt for lesser time. She did hide funds and tamper with tapes. Can you let me know what you think re above. Also, don’t you think Mark Elliot had gall to tell Isabella she was wrong to believe the lies. It’s not his business. He was essentially saying that. Look at what this chit does to people. They think they can play God. He’s enjoying this role. He Could divorce himself from Reniere and still help people but he’s enjoying being associated with Reniere, who I hear is the ultimate coward in prison and intermittently breaks down and cries. But it was no problem for him to keep Danielle locked up for two years. And how did Salzman avoid time on that one. It’s beyond me how these woman slept with this guy who looks perpetually dirty, is small and his hands alone are a turnoff. Ugh! Glad you and Bonnie are out.
Apologies, this comment is related 2 an episode from season 1. Watching the scene unfold with Catherine when she's laughing about Bonnie sleeping on the floor by ur bed. The pain from u both was palpable. I found her 2 b quite self absorbed and entitled. (I understand she was going out of her mind with her own situation). I felt ur emotions when u went on 2 tell her that that shit was NOT funny and I'm glad u did that.
So Marc is a lowlife is how it can be said. HE HAD TO HAVE HEARD THE TAPE Allison MACK AND RENIERE MADE RE BRANDING. That’s it. He’s lying to Isabella and Bonnie too.
not bugging you really but you understand that all of it was pseudo psychology and that anyone who has ever had any therapy at all recognizes this as pseudo psychology. also can you talk about Nikki Clyne. seems smart but so endlessly brainwashed.
Do you think Nancy was at all cognizant of not only his plaguerism of Scientology, but also what that would mean. Keith scoffs at the idea of being compared to scientology, but if you were showing them things that pretty much were the same, I have to wonder how she was reconciling ripping off a known cult.
Never apologize for the way you pronounce things. Your pronunciation only reveals that you've seen more places than people who usually criticize others for that. Besides, the way Americans pronounce things is very different from the way the English, Scottish, Irish, and Canadians pronounce them.
I had a teacher once from SA, and from what I can tell, you've mostly lost your accent. LOL. The only thing that still lingers is how you say "women". You still say what sounds like the singular, "woman". But that's nothing so don't listen to idiots. LOL I love The Vow, but in this episode in particular I wished for a doctor or scientist to lay down the facts when people like Nancy and Marc start spouting their bs. I had OCD with ticks BAD when I was a kid. It was at its worst when I was 11-13, during puberty. I eventually grew out of it, as SO OFTEN happens with OCD/TS. By the time I was 25, the ticks very rarely came back. Any actual doctor will tell you that this is very common and most likely what happened to Marc and other kids in the "study".
Mengele? No advancement at all with torture! You really are naive, you read anything and you lack historical context. He was a m.d., but he was mad too. He continued experimenting with people at Latam when he escaped, there is a town at Brasil with twins he created... Using their parents as animals in a lab. 😢
Vicente actively took and participated in courses that promoted sex with children. Vicente needs to talk about all he did himself to help abuse India Oxenburg, Camila, or any other women abused by Nxivm and it's participants. Vincente talks about how Marc gaslights Isabella in this episode and India clearly has stated Vicente did the same thing to keep her there in Albany. Vicente and Edmondson served India up to the evil and now act as though the didn't directly help KR and were not aware he was teaching child abuse and the abuse of women in his "tech". The lack of accountability on this is disgusting. Vicente still seems to be in deep denial about his own roll in promoting and elevating KR. Vicnete was his right hand man and still acts as though he never covered up for him or ignored the very clear signs they were in a cult. Keith R. openly made misogynistic jokes and taught Vicente about how raping children was acceptable. We have Vicentes own film and camera documenting it. He knew way more than he admits and filmed or taped KR almost all day, every day. Vicente and Edmondson both knew and took those disgusting courses as KR had a underage girl with him all the time. These people knew and choose to ignore it all. KR taught them about child abuse and to them it was acceptable and no one questioned his relationship with the underage girl. They all should be charged with child endangerment. No one should have let an underage girl abandon her parents and stay with a 45 year old man. When Vicente talks about Nancy and Marc- we should all remember Vicente was right there with them at the top of that organization and actively attacked and pursued any one who left before he did. Just once it would be nice to hear him admit his own part in this and how he helped abuse India Oxenburg and others. It would be nice for him to talk about it with accountability for his own actions and not as if he had no choice or wasn't there watching it happen. Vicente abused people by keeping them in and using his media skills to attack the ones that left. Everyone deserves to move on from this but no one should try to do so and make podcasts without accountability and especially when it comes to the open abuse of children this organization supported, promoted and lied about for years. Vicente and Edmondson actively participated in classes that condoned sex with children yet never once in all their talk have they addressed that disgusting piece of this. VICENTE AND EDMONDSON PAID THOUSANDS TO LISTEN TO KEITH TELL THEM SEX WITH KIDS IS NOT ABUSE. They let him live with an underage girl as he did this. Talk about that Vicente. Explain how you made abuse ethically acceptable and still refuse accountability for doing so 🤔
It's subtle but the way you say, "women" sounds different. I'd take your writing skills over an odd pronunciation any day! Oh and Nancy Salzman, I found her deniability disingenuous re: no knowledge of DOX. And saying her business isn't a part of any crimes w/250 million? Thousand? in cash stashed in her home? hmmm.
Mark had a lot of nerve to imply that her tics might come back because she decides to leave.
I was thinking the same thing. The way he gaslit Isabella made me so mad. Even her family gaslit her. Especially her father and grandmother. It’s as if they were saying “ so what if Kieth and the organization did horrible and illegal things, as long as that damn Turrets is gone, ignore it!” I felt so bad for Isabella in that moment.
First Mark & Bonnie, THANK YOU. Your courage has made a tremendous difference in so many lives. Second, who tf are these people criticizing your pronunciation?!? As if that matters in the *slightest*. Sheesh. I always enjoy the rich variety of language & sound in our world, and I enjoy listening to you. Kudos!
as a daughter of a narcissistic parent I feel so validated by the way you view this whole complex experience. thank you so much for sharing. sending you and Bonnie and everyone a hug from Brazil!
Here-here!!!👏👏👏👏👏
Fellow South African here - don't lose the accent, it's awesome! Love the podcast Mark! You're f*cking fantastic!
The way you have unpacked all of this and are able to articulate is beyond impressive. Episode 2 left me feeling that Nancy was just as much the enemy as Keith, but now I'm shifting back to her being one of the most abused victims. Difficult to analyze 20 years of her story in just a few episodes. I'm not trying to sound creepy when I say how enamored I was with Isabella. You can visually see how broken her spirit is when you compare the older videos of her, even with her ticks. Several triggers for me watching the video call between her and Mark. She handled it with such intelligence and grace. She is so perceptive and confident. I think her father is just so desperate for her to be ok, he maybe isn't willing to understand and accept the level of abuse she actually endured.
I agree about Isabella’s dad. I think if he realized the abuse his daughter endured, a natural emotional response from a loving parent would be he failed to protect her. He possibly at the time this was filmed, he was still coming to grips with everything and still working things out.
@@jrdr2000 I find it interesting how little mental abuse is acknowledged/accepted/understood versus physical and verbal. It definitely takes a level of emotional intelligence that maybe some don't possess. What do you think? I love when her mother asked the father how he was able to separate things into categories. How much is one (or a father) willing to sacrifice to 'eliminate' Tourette's?
Just found your podcast. I’m from America and I love your accent! It’s so different from what I hear usually. Your voice is also just at the tenor that is just very soothing. I also love Bonnie’s lovely accent. It’s just amazing. The fact that she’s such a sweet soul just radiates from her. Like a glow! Thank you for doing this. I watched The Vow, as well as Seduced, and any other documentary I could find. Cults are fascinating to me. It’s so interesting to learn from you.
I'm so grateful for your debrief of this episode in particular. I'm the mom of a young adult with Tourette's (TS). Try raising a child with a very visible and very misunderstood disorder, one with horrible social stigma and where the only treatments are (in many cases) worse than living with the disease. Then observe the smug arrogance of KR and NS that they could just swoop in and "cure" TS with their 'tech'. What a message to send: "Your condition is entirely your own fault - you just don't want to do the work to fix it." My heart broke for the young woman who experienced relief but then had to confront the reality of what it had cost her. Mark, I really appreciate your willingness to confront your own role in the things that happened, and your dedication to bringing it all to light. ((
My spouse has tourettes and watching this episode was difficult. Listening to your debrief helped clear so much up that the show left unsaid. Thank you for keeping these free and sharing your view point. It's so important to get this kind of insight on these episodes.
I'm so sorry it was difficult. But happy that my thoughts were helpful!
Hi Mark. I’m in the UK, latest episode just been on so currently watching this. Love your podcasts. Your accent is fine, ignore the haters 👍👍
I think the way you speak is fantastic Mark! It just adds the spark to the your unique perspective on the world ! I too will now use "K-no-wee Ho-Wee! " its perfectly fun and quirky!! :-) Sending you and Bonnie all the best wishes that you continue to find joy in your life!
Mark, thank you for sharing. Some of us are watching friends and family fall to cults of personality and politics. Your gut wrenching delivery of, "Nobody joins a cult!" helps me remember who they were before. Isabella and her parents broke my heart. Prayers for continued recovery to you all. So glad you're on the other side! :)
I really appreciate that xo
I was just amazed at Isabella at what an incredible and brave woman she is. She recognized what was going on and the level of control and abuse she was experiencing and also found out about DOS and she got out. What saddens me and angers me at the same time was when she talked about how she was under pressure to be fully cured from this illness because it makes Keith and the organization look better. That made my blood boil. They are putting this enormous stress and pressure on people that have had negative responses their whole lives to stress and pressure and all to give cover to Keith and the organization.
In this episode it was clear that there is absolutely nothing that Marc Elliot would be unable to excuse or look the other way at in regards to Keith. He is convinced that he is curing an illness and that is all he can see. I fear for him and the damage that was and will be done to him until he wakes up from this.
Extremely moving episode. Isabella is a wonderfully insightful brave woman. Nancy Salzman I am not sure if I would ever trust what she says, although it seems evident that she was the victim of abuse herself. I've just looked at the Dos women reactions, there are 3 parts! I will watch their responses as it's very good to see and hear them also. This episode said so much about narcissistic systems and gaslighting. I am so aware of the suffering of all involved. This is not entertainment, it is an education. For a long time now, I have felt our schools and colleges need to have modules about narcissistic systems in society.
He’s enjoying the fame, negative or positive. Doesn’t matter. He’s a lowlife!
@@karenlangley9979 anyone who sees women being branded and hears the tape and I know he heard it, as it was played in court, would know Reniere is a serial rapist, kidnapper and sadistic sex adductor all in one. He cannot explain away Renuere giving advice to Mack on how the branding should be done. Case closed, Marc us as bad as he knows it and defends it.
I didn’t mean to single you out Karen, was just posting.
@@ecalose6785 I think you have mistaken me for someone else, I didn't write the post above your comment. Looks like tech went wrong.
I think he goes against his morals by NOT setting up a separate practice to help others with Tourette’s. Instead he pours his energy into his felon friend and uses the backlash as an excuse as to why he cannot go back to helping others.
So true. It's an excuse. I understand being greatfull but to turn a blind eye on everything else is absolutely horrible. He isn't fooling anybody.
It’s ironic how both Keith and Nancy are playing a victim card which is completely opposite to their teaching and philosophy of how not to be a victim
Deeply ironic!
I am rewatching the vow parts 1 & 2 then following each episode with your debrief. This episode really hits the feels. You can see Isabel trying to explain to her family how she feels but can’t verbalize it. Thank you for this podcast and I look forward to you upcoming episodes.
You explain the dynamic very vell. And how you talk about the importance of caring about peoples souls touch my heart. You are needed in this soulless time.
Thanks for these podcasts, Mark! It provides so much more insight.
And your accent is fine!
Thank you for your debiefs Mark, they are very insightful and I'm always looking forward to hearing your reaction to the episodes. I think what struck me the most in this one was the reaction of Isabella's father towards what she was expressing. I felt so bad for her that he wasn't understanding that her progress with her Tourette's came at a very heavy price, and that she was clearly traumatized by the whole experience! She could have done all this healing in a healthy environment, but that's not how it happened, and the fact that he wasn't able to acknowledge that was really upsetting. Everyting about NXIVM is upsetting, really...
All your debriefs are just so helpful! I think you and everybody else who have been in such a controlling environment for so long and woken up, have incredibly valuable experience to share. And when you can articulate it, like not everybody can, it's even more valuable. And even make films? That's just too good to be true, imagine having this stuff about narcs out on film, like the unraveling of the cult was captured!
When you talked about at about 26:40 in how somebody had used language that made you think they were still brainwashed by the leader, that made me understand why I was so reluctant to answer a person myself not long ago. I had a bad feeling but could not understand why. Now I know, flying monkeys. People who act as flying monkeys, don't usually know! They are just used by the narcissist. They will use them and the person will act in good faith. Good to know.
Hi mark and bonnie, first off I'm HUGE fan! You both did amazing things by breaking free of NMIVM and taking down such a corrupt organization. I have deeply researched your story and the rest of the esp survivors and I am so grateful for humanity that you both exist and did all you could do to help all of your friends, the world needs more people like you both. I watched the vow, seduced and all of the news coverage on this story because I think it is so valuable to learn from others and to learn just how vulnerable we are as humans in our quest for meaning in this strange and cruel world. I must confess i didn't fully comprehend how seductive Nacy was until this third episode of the Vow. I was watching her talk and all of a sudden I had this weird feeling and I though OMG that is exactly how she hooked people. I knew who she was and what she was about and yet as she was speaking I still felt this unexplainable feeling about what she was saying and how she said it. I'm so sorry for the pain that you all have lived through and I'm thankful again for you all sharing your journey, just know in your hearts that you are now truly making the world a better place. Sending you healing vibes and praying for your happiness.
I continue to be horrified by the loyalists that will defend the indefensible. Marc Elliot speaking with Isabella is immediately gaslighting her, telling her the branding isn’t true and that she’s trusting the wrong people. I was gobsmacked. He even said himself after she explains women thought they were getting a tattoo, not Keith ranieres initials on their crotch that would be illegal that would be assault. So he knows it’s disgusting but there is no way his precious vanguard would ever use the organization as a sex ring. Well I think we all now know that’s exactly what he turned it into a sex ring of coercion and blackmail called dos. Just because something good happened to marc and his Tourette’s is gone that doesn’t make the company safe and legit. I can’t believe he still defends him to this day.
Great insightful episode. Thanks
Thank you so much for sharing your story with us! ❤ I can really see how valuable Nancy was as Keith’s number 2. She is so convincing and can act so loving and compassionate when she wants to. I can see how she was able to control people. She can also drum up any emotion she wants you to feel and has been doing it for so long I wonder if she even notices she’s doing it. She’s so good at lying it’s easy to forget she was a monster that enjoyed the power she wielded over others and sacrificed her own children for that worship. Nancy is just as dangerous as Keith and I wish she was in prison too.
Great observation. I wouldn’t last ten minutes in a room with her though. I find her so affected. Just me.
I agree that Nancy is a master manipulator, she is carefully presenting herself as a victim. Classic vulnerable narcissistic behaviour
@katiecoolady - a voice for victims Is she right now? Really? I’m just on the journey watching the show week to week and haven’t investigated further. When I saw that ankle bracelet I thought maybe she got herself a nice plea deal but if she’s currently in prison that makes me really happy!
@katiecoolady - a voice for victims Thank you for the update! Nancy will never change. Now that she’s tasted the power I wonder if she’ll try to restart the cult when she gets out with Keith’s remaining loyal followers. She’ll rename it and start small and finally be the top guy.
Hi Mark, I wonder if you'd be interested in revisiting what the bleep do we know?
I saw your film in my early 20's when I was a wild and free idealouge traveling europe and my mind in all the ways possible, spiritually and metaphysically. I found it incredibly gratifying to see how you connected spirituality with modern science. But it did that in such a way that it let some (in hindsight) very wrong core assumptions about the world become part of my identity and part of many conversations I was having at the time. I would wax lyrical about how I can change the physical world just by thinking it that way, how I could manifest positivity and world-change just by acting like things were better - if I wore colourful clothes and bounced around the house (like the main charcheters friend) things would better etc. But now I see that that theory is fundamentally about control, in much the same way ESP has been built. It bred a kind of toxic positivity in me and some of my friends, such that we would ostrisize people with depression and people going through problems, or people being abused because they just weren't manifesting hard enough. "watch what the bleep!" we would say, as if it were some anitodote.
Later in life I became a skeptic, in the 'skeptical-movement' sense of the world - researching areas where public understanding was in conflict the findings we get from modern science. And I saw 'what the bleep' in that new light, as a film about gaslighting the younger generation of milinials who wanted desperately to feel special and in control of the world and themselves. All you had to do was understand the double slit experiment and realise how that related to how you perceive the world! - spoiler alert, it doesn't.
I wonder how you see that film today? Do you agree with any of these points? and would you be interested in doing a 'debrief' on it? I'd love to hear your perspective because that film really was part of the zeitgeist of an era within my community.
OH! I never made that connection that Mark Vicente was involved with that movie!
I enjoyed that movie quite a bit!
...what a trajectory.....
I’ve learned more about covert narcissism and emotional abuse from your podcast. I was married to a covert narcissist for almost 27 years. What you said about Nancy, that she couldn’t see the abuse until she was out from under it is so true. I didn’t realize that I was being emotionally abused until he walked out for another woman. One day he was the man I knew and the next was this vindictive, nasty stranger. Gaslighting is insidious. I’m disabled, with chronic pain; sometimes I need a wheelchair. He used that against me constantly, making me feel guilty for things I couldn’t control. I think that’s why I’m so fascinated and horrified by what you all went through. You’re really helping others heal too.
Years ago I left two narcissists - and now - thanks to UA-cam, I know the signs of a narcissist, and won't be fooled again.
UA-cam is filled with lots of great information about narcissists - and how to heal in the aftermath of leaving one.
Wishing you all the best in your life as you move forward!
It is so insightful to watch your process of unpacking this experience. Thank you for sharing.
wow how did you get this posted so quickly!! thank you!
Mark you and Bonnie are amazing.
So immensely grateful for your thoughtfulness and deep understanding on these issues, themes and the people involved. You express things so effectively and it’s always impactful. I’m studying narcissism at the moment so your videos are like brain food, truly.
I appreciate them deeply! Thank you so much Mark 🙏 x
Thank You! Glad it was helpful!
Thank you for unpacking this episode. I so enjoy watching these and especially this episode I struggled to put into the words what was so wrong about this episode. What was bothering me and you did a great job and helped me organize my own thoughts.
Thank you Mark for sharing and caring,. Also sending my love to you and Bonnie💕
Thanks so much Mark - so informative and thought provoking as usual. As well as having doubled down on their loyalty since all this happened do you think the remaining loyalists are enjoying their new status as the last remaining true believers? The most loyal ? And now there is no one above them and they get to have status and be in charge ?
Very astute! Yes absolutely possible! Being special can be incredibly intoxicating!
Mark Elliot is scared that if he disavows Keith, his Tourette’s will return. Oh Mark, you healed yourself. You are allowed to take credit for that. Please if you are unwilling to listen to anything unpleasant about Keith, at the very least please be open to the fact that maybe some people had a negative experience.
@Bloom Tik Bloom Yes he wants to carry on the work. But unfortunately for him, as a man, and not fully able to understand what sex trafficking is, or rape, or coercion. He is choosing not only to stand front and centre with a narcissist con man, who used the work of others, plagurisedNLP and ordinary psychological studies. And it was Nancy who did this study, she was the one who treated them. Is it naivety with Mark? He should speak to some of the victims before making a stand for an absolute monster. Keith is still being investigated for the deaths of three of his girlfriends, It doesn’t make you stupid if you are fully taken in by a con job like Keith, but FFS at least hear some of the victims out,
@Bloom Tik Bloom He needs to suck it up, put on his big boy pants and get on with it. Time is a wasting.
@Bloom Tik Bloom He has gone through a baptism of fire. He started off with a condition which made him visible and noticeable when he navigated through society. He managed with his own personal hardwork to allay it in a manner which personally satisfied him. Keith isn’t going to be able to do anything behind bars, and if Mark bothered to read the ruling in full, he would realise Keith ain’t going anywhere. And if Keith is this magnanimous man he would hand his work to Mark and say, there, take it, see what you can do. Mark will never understand what it feel like to be coerced, sexually manipulated by someone, just as I, will never know what it feels like to have Tourette’s. Mark needs to put on his big boy pants and step up, If there’s a treatment there, then he should get a team of people around him and start making some moves. He is so caught up in the mythology of Keith, that his logic and practical thinking have flown out the window. Good people do bad things Mark. Keith done a lot of bad things, and he got caught, and sent to jail for them. Seems to me Nancy was the brains behind the Tourette’s research anyway, she was the only one who actually went to college.
It was hard to watch Isabella with her family and see that they measured “success” with wether or not she still ticked. It seemed that was all that mattered. No matter the cost. Even the grandma, was thanking baby Jesus for the removal of Tourette’s. Like just as long as you are “normal”, it doesn’t matter what happened, or what you went through. Her value as a person was measured by her ticking. Thats how it comes off to me. She seemed like she didn’t want to say anything bad about ESP because the family was so overjoyed by the results. My heart goes out to her because its almost as if shes being forced to agree with her father to remain in his good graces and avoid a possible argument with him. We dont know what abuses she may have had to endure while undergoing this treatment. I have a 16 year old son with autism, and he has some tics, and i know there are people even in my family that do not value him like a neuro typical person . That if he could just be “cured” of his autism wouldn’t he be amazing. And its like, if he was cured, he wouldn’t be who he is, and i value and love him as he is. If my child said they had to go through penance for this behavior, id be very angry and very dangerous. Taking her off her meds was very dangerous. Fortunately she made it through. So much in this episode.
@becoswald yes! Like now you are cured, can you go make your own money now? So we don’t have to support you financially?
Isabella is truly a unique, wonderful, truthful women who had insight and the bravery to speak the truth. Thank God she had people on her side.
First off, I love your accent. I think because you have such a soften accent because you’ve spent a lot of your life outside of South Africa, it has adjusted, but I love your accent.
I was super excited to see this episode because the whole thing about how esp “cured” Tourette’s was the thing I wondered about because in the case of Marc and Isabella those are extreme cases. My brother’s ex fiancé has Tourette’s but it was very mild. She would tap her fingers on her head when she was excited (which was very cute) and couldn’t learn how to drive because the anxiety of being behind the wheel made her always take her hands off the steering wheel.
I feel bad that Marc is voluntarily ignoring all the bad things because esp helped him so much. I said this about Eduardo, it’s like they are indebted to keith because esp made them better people in their eyes. It’s just sad. It reminded me of a video I watched the other day on myers Briggs personality types and how they would be as villains. And in the video, the ISFP has poison ivy from Batman as the example of them. That they arent necessarily a bad person but that they get so caught up in their beliefs and feelings and they ignore right from wrong. Poison ivy isn’t wrong about saving the environment but willing to harm others in order to save the planet isn’t very humanitarian.
Also it was interesting to watch an episode that didn’t feature you, or Bonnie, nippy and we got a replay of Sarah’s message but it might be my favorite episode so far but I feel like next week will only just top this one.
Thank you for your insights. I’m having difficulty viewing Mark Elliott as a “good” human being. The fact that he had already decided he would support KR years before DOS if he had learned KR was guilty of rape paints him as more of a selfish misogynist who cares more for his Tourette’s study than people who deserve his compassion.
I feel the same about Eduardo with his ultra right-wing macho BS. That he could say he saw good in DOS is astounding.
So, it bothers me when you say they are both good men. They are not. Whatever may have made then good earlier in their lives is long gone. They are the people they are portraying to the world and they most likely will never change.
I do understand that they are
“controlled” and you are describing what you believe is their essence. But, it tends to relieve them of their responsibility for their abhorrent views and actions.
That said, your debriefs are wonderful and very thoughtful. You are a good man.
ESP “tech” is just shutting of human emotion. “What if you didnt have that response to anger??” Then id be a damn zombie!!
I was raised by a Covert Narcissist, and Nancy sets off every warning bell ive installed in my head.
Thank you. You got the knewweeehewwee! One thing struck me in Ep 3. I walked away from my computer with headphones and was listening to Marc Elliot talk to Isabella, but I thought it was Keith! Came back to see it was Marc. Same speech inflections. He sounded like Zombie Keith. Ep 3 did make me empathize Nancy. Not completely, but she really did have to shut up when VANGUARD the CREEP spoke, didn't she
Your accent is not mispronounced…. It is just yours. we don’t all sound like Americans and don’t want to. I’m Australian. Thank you for your thoughtful analysis and your honesty
I adore your accent. I’m sorry people with nothing better to do have to bully people for being smarter than them. Please know they are just an unfortunate vocal minority. Thank you so much for these videos. You have some invaluable insight and I always find your introspection fascinating and educational. All love. ❤
Just an addendum on Isabella (whom I think is just a strong inspiring young woman!) but what always bothered me in the Vow 1 was when Isabella had an EM with Nancy and Nancy said she (Isabella) was like a real person. Like wth??! She is a real person with or without tics! That always bothered me and showed the layer of abuse and twisted thinking on Nancy's part...it just hurt my heart to hear that she said such a thing to Isabella.
That really bothered me too. Basically saying she held no value as a person if she had tics. My son has autism, and he is devalued and dismissed by people all the time. It makes me very angry and sad. It’s so sad to think that this young woman had to feel shame in order to stop ticking that can’t be healthy and mentally not at all.
Also, she reaches to deny emotions and change them, which, imo, can be very dangerous. There is nothing wrong with letting off steam or feeling hurt or becoming emotional. You don’t have to get a PhD in it, but we have emotions for a reason. They’re important. Suppressing them can be very dangerous when you hit 40 and start feeling insane because one did notacknowledge their emotions. Cults are just bad..
Even a "pernicious fly" in the background!
I’ve got to say, this has been a tough series to watch bcs of my own personal experience. I’ve watched both sides, the women of Dos and your side - and it really is quite emotional, I can see both sides.
Even if the portrayal media wise, isn’t completely accurate, I will say for those of us that have been in relationships with these types of psychopaths/narcissistic malignant exploitation type personalities, I know from my own experiences - the methods that are being exposed in this series- are very real and afterwards, it will make one feel as if their very soul was slowly scalped out of them and the malignant personality had placed themselves inside of the person while still feasting on their soul. The journey back home to ourselves is one that takes every ounce of their being.
I’m glad you brought up the aspects of cognitive behavioral therapies that can be used to help ourselves emotionally/mentally/physically bcs those therapies can help us identify and work through/heal the root issues and the therapy even helps after this type of abuse. It’s the malignant personalities who will exploit these practices to gain a sense of power and control over a person…. Which is why the root of an issue is never helped. It’s exploited.
I’ve seen ppl begin to use the same abusive tactics in order to gain the approval of the leader. I do believe that their being was actually being parasited off of…. So it’s interesting that the group was proclaiming others were parasites when they didn’t do or act like the actual parasite involved here (Keith). A form of unconsciously projecting. When ppl wake up to the abuse, there is so much shame and guilt they have to work through due to the types of behavior that was allowed/coerced/and GROOMED into by the abuser under the illusion… but if they work through all of that, they will find that buffer of grace in their own love and sovereignty that can never truly be taken away from them.
Thank you for showing how real these methods are while also revealing the painful process of healing when one does start to recover from these experiences. This is a huge step in the right direction for our culture learning about healthier boundaries and learning how to value those boundaries by saying no when there is an attempt to cross/exploit the values that lay in the sovereignty of a person behind the protection of a boundary.
I was drawn to this series bcs of you. Your “what the bleep” rocked my mind when I was younger. I’m so excited for your covert narcissism documentary. It’s going to help so many. Big hugs and big thanks to you and everyone that has been brave enough to tell their story!! ❤
No need to explain yourself to arrogant americans who think they own the English language.
My college political science professor would talk about “con-seek’-en-seas”. It took awhile to figure out he meant “consequences”.
Watching Marc on the H3 Podcast having done no research on the show or Ethan Klein (who has tourettes) was just incredible. It's interesting to hear your take as someone who knew him.
It's very interesting what you say that in the end it became very much about taking the punishment for others... That's a great way to control a group of people, and I was thinking where have we seen something similar to that lately? It's funny how narcs all follow the same script.
how does redefining "abuse" lead to enlightenment?
I had a very strong reaction to Isabella's story. I can't imagine how much energy it would take to constantly control the impulses of Tourette's 24hrs of every day of your life. I suffer from constant chronic pain & am able to hide my pain from others & not show it outwardly, but it takes a lot of energy. If I am around people constantly for more than a couple days I start crying uncontrollably for no reason, just from the exhaustion of controlling it. And that requires nowhere near the level of energy Isabella would have to expend controlling her impulses.
And there's an even a deeper question of if all that energy is worth it. I hide my pain from others, but it is still there throbbing & aching every second of every day. I just don't let others see how bad it is. So ultimately, I am using a lot of energy & concentration just to make others feel more comfortable around me.
Is that what Isabella is doing? Does she still have the triggers, but is just suppressing the outward ticks that make her condition apparent to others & therefore makes them uncomfortable? The constant energy & concentration that would take to maintain would make it so hard to even think straight. Is she giving up her ability to think clearly & do things that require more thought or concentration just so others are comfortable around her? That would explain why she no longer paints.
Have you seen the videos on UA-cam of the women that are currently in DOS reacting to the Vow Part IU and if so do you have any thoughts on that?
Some of them. My reaction is: ua-cam.com/video/aWZR5uUpeI0/v-deo.html
Hey mark and Bonnie from Ireland 😊
Great video, thanks!
+ Degrading someone because of their accent is one of the most idiotic things ever. Especially with English which has like a million dialects and accents. Everyone is unique and everyone speaks differently. Nothing abnormal or to be ashamed about.
❤. That is all. x
Have you spoken to Sam Vaknim, Mark? His book on narcissism and his UA-cam videos are excellent.
Maybe Mark Elliot had given Nancy and Keith some personal collateral? Maybe Mark Elliot had made himself blackmailable?
I watched a lot of docu's about cults and this is the first cult I feel like I could be sucked in to..... Scary! It's really about relatability!
Regarding the Tourette's control (I say control, not cure) My father managed to stop drinking on his own for 15 years-he white knuckled it. But he refused any treatment for the disease. He stopped drinking and remained miserable and bitter with very little enjoyment of life (a dry drunk) Eventually he relapsed and drank himself to death. I saw similarities in Isabella's father's reaction to the fact that she had stopped the tics-a very superficial approach to a deeply routed and complicated disorder.
Your breakdown layer by layer because it’s so complicated it would be fascinating to read the trial credit transcripts I messaged you before and I thought I think I told you my last message that Bonnie I bought her album her CD at virgin records in Vancouver because I used to live in Vancouver and I told you I went to the Nexium centre and I thought oh my God these people are weird and I worked at Jenny Craig and yeah and anyways talk about a little bit Kulti but the way you break everything down The way you break everything down layer by layer and unwrap the psychology is is very interesting you know it’s like you guys were wrapped up and now you’re peeling back the layers of the onion and I absolutely understand what you’re saying your podcasts are not only interesting and informative but you’re highly intelligent and sensitive and we all have our our areas to improve in life but we all have our days and I like what you said about Isabella how she managed to retain her soul and I remember messaging Mark Elliot three years ago seeing the person that I was the most worried about with him and he does look So sad and so torn but you know in his gut he knows the right thing but he’s controlling it because if he lets go of the control I think he’s afraid the Tourette’s will come back I think you’re right on the right right on
Mark have you done an interview with Aaron Smith Levin Growing up in Scientology. There are so much similarities. You and him would have a very interesting interview and a lot of people would watch it.
Marc Elliot must have given Keith collateral. Keith has to have some dirt on him. It’s the only explaination.
I wrote a comment I’m just almost finishing the end of your dBrief I looked for right after I watch the vowel last night I talk in my phone Mr. Vicente so I remember about three years ago I went onto UA-cam and I typed in Mark Elliott and I sent him a message and I said something about I don’t remember exactly what I wrote because I don’t wanna“ myself but what I remember feeling is I basically said in in however I wrote it at the time that I was worried about him out of anybody and I can’t comprehend what he’s going through but you know I could relate to coming out of the wheelchair and it was scary when I wasn’t sick anymore because and I’m talking about emotionally because I get depressed and there is a certain amount of control but I guess what I’m trying to say is that I could relate to him and in certain ways because in someways giving up being ill then I’d have to really find out who I am but it sounds like he knew who he was before he had Tourette’s or before he went to Nancy and Keith are Ineri and or they should call Lynn Keith Erie that’s what they should call him Kerscary. Universe forgive me for some of what I wrote but honestly I just I was worried about that man and I don’t even know who he is you know like but I genuinely was worried about him my dad always used to say that I was altruistic meaning I had no intention of anything and I remember when I was four or five or six I was very young my grandmother who is 96 is still alive and she’s Ukrainian and I didn’t understand why nobody helped her on the farm in the morning and I asked my uncle and my aunt who are still alive in my Bubba is still alive and it’s BABe a I said do you remember that and they said yes and I said how many kids would would ask that and they said either not many or none I can’t remember which it was and I’ve always been empathetic with with morals and so on goals and that’s good and you know when you were talking about fear that’s what Jenny Craig did they led by fear and I think that’s why I got laid off they were 20 of 88 of us that got laid off and I just was a Vancouver granola crunching grouse grind as I lived in North Van and lived right down the street from Sara as it turns out which I thought was really funny when I saw her on TV because I remember her from a movie my ex-husband and I watched Chris who works at BC IT and he makes brilliant films but it any rate I forget what I was talking about oh Mark Elliot very worried about him and the reason I was talking about myself is because somebody wants told me that I was the most naïve person they’ve ever met in their life and how eccentric and odd I was because I can’t ever see the bad in people but I’m learning to have better judgement that way I don’t know where that got disconnected but it wasn’t through Nexium a Jenny Craig I’ll tell you that
Nancy Salzman is a psychiatrist and maybe it’s true she was unknowingly victimized but I think she knew she was but she didn’t say anything which goes to what she says about how her mother treated her and how Nancy even being educated did that to her kids and so what that shows all of us is we’re only human that’s why cracks me up but you know I don’t know I don’t know anyways keep going I’m almost finished your podcast tonight but I had to interject ride forget these thoughts
Very sneaky of Marc to say what if it’s not true. He knows what he’s doing re reevaluate. It’s a con.
FYI ~ People who make fun of the way other people speak English usually don’t speak multiple languages they have no idea what it takes to make sounds in other languages that are foreign to them.
The MyTourettes video is still up on UA-cam, scary this stuff is still out there
Muscle Memory!
What do you think of J Z Night now? Ramtha? Let us know where you are going next so that we will know where the next one is going to bloom.
I'm so absorbed in your content that I didn't even notice any mispronunciation. Of course, I'm not a shit sticking grammar cop.
Your accent is fine don’t sweat it! Maybe KR thought of HIMSELF as a stimulus response machine? In that he could not feel real emotions so he thought of himself almost as a human robot?
Mark.. when you were talking of advertising & psy-ops. Did Nxivm ever toy with the idea of an "app" to surveil people. Seems something right down their alley. Possibly Raniere was too lazy to ever develop of imagine this. Your dialect when speaking the plural of women..(where it sounds like the singular woman) was one thing from Season one that I noticed. Bonnie had an amazing internal compass that pointed to true North when she knew instinctively to "Get Out" which truly impressed me. Thanks. PTM
I did not know/remember that Mark was South African. He sounds American to me.
You speak very good English 👍 Well educated but the profanity isn’t necessary. You’re interesting to listen to. I like this video. I like talking about my father’s heritage too. First I heard of this channel. I like your narrative. Thanks a lot 🇲🇽
I would love for you to present the happy times too. Having breakfast with your brethren, the excitement that had you stand up and praise genuinely your teachers. I need some synthesis rather than everything was toxic. Perhaps you see it that way but whenever someone has a view dominated by one side, one flavor, I long for what they are not saying. No disrespect intended towards the suffering.
Mark forget everybody insulting your pronuncimitations :)
Hi, just finished watching everything. I know Allison Mack gave up the tape, but three years., that’s absurd. It’s not like they wouldn’t get that tape with ten tears which is fair. She invented the brand and likely got girls to sleep with this GNOME,
I think it was so unjust for her to get only three years. And Nancy is lying. Saying she had to admit guilt for lesser time. She did hide funds and tamper with tapes. Can you let me know what you think re above. Also, don’t you think Mark Elliot had gall to tell Isabella she was wrong to believe the lies. It’s not his business. He was essentially saying that. Look at what this chit does to people. They think they can play God. He’s enjoying this role. He Could divorce himself from Reniere and still help people but he’s enjoying being associated with Reniere, who I hear is the ultimate coward in prison and intermittently breaks down and cries. But it was no problem for him to keep Danielle locked up for two years. And how did Salzman avoid time on that one. It’s beyond me how these woman slept with this guy who looks perpetually dirty, is small and his hands alone are a turnoff. Ugh!
Glad you and Bonnie are out.
Apologies, this comment is related 2 an episode from season 1. Watching the scene unfold with Catherine when she's laughing about Bonnie sleeping on the floor by ur bed. The pain from u both was palpable. I found her 2 b quite self absorbed and entitled. (I understand she was going out of her mind with her own situation). I felt ur emotions when u went on 2 tell her that that shit was NOT funny and I'm glad u did that.
YES - by showing that video to others, KR was screening folks to find others who had a similar pathology.
evil.
So Marc is a lowlife is how it can be said. HE HAD TO HAVE HEARD THE TAPE Allison MACK AND RENIERE MADE RE BRANDING. That’s it. He’s lying to Isabella and Bonnie too.
not bugging you really but you understand that all of it was pseudo psychology and that anyone who has ever had any therapy at all recognizes this as pseudo psychology. also can you talk about Nikki Clyne. seems smart but so endlessly brainwashed.
Is she still dancing in front of the jail?
Do you think Nancy was at all cognizant of not only his plaguerism of Scientology, but also what that would mean. Keith scoffs at the idea of being compared to scientology, but if you were showing them things that pretty much were the same, I have to wonder how she was reconciling ripping off a known cult.
I looked up Marc - he is full of conspiracy theories and Trumpism. yikes
When is your narc documetary coming out ? Let me know if you need content. I dated one for 7 years. Ugh..
Never apologize for the way you pronounce things. Your pronunciation only reveals that you've seen more places than people who usually criticize others for that. Besides, the way Americans pronounce things is very different from the way the English, Scottish, Irish, and Canadians pronounce them.
I don't know about the pronunciations, but Mark says "basically" like it's going out of style.
Basically, you might be right....
I had a teacher once from SA, and from what I can tell, you've mostly lost your accent. LOL. The only thing that still lingers is how you say "women". You still say what sounds like the singular, "woman". But that's nothing so don't listen to idiots. LOL
I love The Vow, but in this episode in particular I wished for a doctor or scientist to lay down the facts when people like Nancy and Marc start spouting their bs. I had OCD with ticks BAD when I was a kid. It was at its worst when I was 11-13, during puberty. I eventually grew out of it, as SO OFTEN happens with OCD/TS. By the time I was 25, the ticks very rarely came back. Any actual doctor will tell you that this is very common and most likely what happened to Marc and other kids in the "study".
There is nothing wrong with your Parley 😊
Mengele? No advancement at all with torture! You really are naive, you read anything and you lack historical context. He was a m.d., but he was mad too. He continued experimenting with people at Latam when he escaped, there is a town at Brasil with twins he created... Using their parents as animals in a lab. 😢
Vicente actively took and participated in courses that promoted sex with children. Vicente needs to talk about all he did himself to help abuse India Oxenburg, Camila, or any other women abused by Nxivm and it's participants. Vincente talks about how Marc gaslights Isabella in this episode and India clearly has stated Vicente did the same thing to keep her there in Albany. Vicente and Edmondson served India up to the evil and now act as though the didn't directly help KR and were not aware he was teaching child abuse and the abuse of women in his "tech". The lack of accountability on this is disgusting.
Vicente still seems to be in deep denial about his own roll in promoting and elevating KR. Vicnete was his right hand man and still acts as though he never covered up for him or ignored the very clear signs they were in a cult.
Keith R. openly made misogynistic jokes and taught Vicente about how raping children was acceptable. We have Vicentes own film and camera documenting it. He knew way more than he admits and filmed or taped KR almost all day, every day. Vicente and Edmondson both knew and took those disgusting courses as KR had a underage girl with him all the time. These people knew and choose to ignore it all. KR taught them about child abuse and to them it was acceptable and no one questioned his relationship with the underage girl. They all should be charged with child endangerment. No one should have let an underage girl abandon her parents and stay with a 45 year old man.
When Vicente talks about Nancy and Marc- we should all remember Vicente was right there with them at the top of that organization and actively attacked and pursued any one who left before he did.
Just once it would be nice to hear him admit his own part in this and how he helped abuse India Oxenburg and others. It would be nice for him to talk about it with accountability for his own actions and not as if he had no choice or wasn't there watching it happen.
Vicente abused people by keeping them in and using his media skills to attack the ones that left.
Everyone deserves to move on from this but no one should try to do so and make podcasts without accountability and especially when it comes to the open abuse of children this organization supported, promoted and lied about for years. Vicente and Edmondson actively participated in classes that condoned sex with children yet never once in all their talk have they addressed that disgusting piece of this. VICENTE AND EDMONDSON PAID THOUSANDS TO LISTEN TO KEITH TELL THEM SEX WITH KIDS IS NOT ABUSE. They let him live with an underage girl as he did this.
Talk about that Vicente. Explain how you made abuse ethically acceptable and still refuse accountability for doing so 🤔
Stop apologising
Sorry...
It's subtle but the way you say, "women" sounds different. I'd take your writing skills over an odd pronunciation any day! Oh and Nancy Salzman, I found her deniability disingenuous re: no knowledge of DOX. And saying her business isn't a part of any crimes w/250 million? Thousand? in cash stashed in her home? hmmm.
I pray you find Christ in your new search.