Bonnie’s song is hauntingly beautiful. Moved me to tears. She is so brave. To walk away is one thing. Scary as hell! To walk away alone when the man you love and share your life, your soul, your bed with is still very much in…oh my fucking god to have that kind of strength! She’s a gorgeous human, inside and out! (But I don’t have to tell you that 😉) P.S. Those of us who saw The Vow Season 1 and then saw Obi-Wan Kenobi already knew she was kick-ass and weren’t surprised at all. I, for one, was like “HELL YEAH!!! Glad they figured out she needs more than to just say fucking ‘hello’.” (My husband was totally confused 😂) Looking forward to more great things from both of you ❤
This episode was easily the hardest to watch and made me genuinely nauseous a couple times. Keith is truly sadistic, and the information in episode 4 just confirms it. The depth of pain that this man caused so many people is just unfathomable, and I have empathy for those sucked in by it and destroyed by it. I hope Lauren and all the others find healing, and I hope you and the others who blew the whistle and eventually brought him down continue to find healing. I had no idea Bonnie was the one who did the song at the end! It is a truly beautiful piece of music.
What a RUDE COMMENT! You have NO IDEA of what MARK AND BONNIE went through. Thank you MARK for your VIDEOS. Thank you for being HONEST & OPEN,this includes everybody that is in your group .I'm in awe of your BRAVERY. I'm PRAYING for HEALING & GROWTH. 🤗💗
@@virginiamartinez1943 I don’t think it was a rude comment. She never mentioned Mark or Bonnie. Nancy and Lauren are just as evil as Keith and never would have gone against anything Keith did or said if they didn’t need a plea deal. As honorable as Mark and Bonnie are, Nancy and Lauren are the opposite of honorable.
@@middlemarie2 They definitely weren't the ones to originally blow the whistle. Mark, Bonnie, Nippy, and Sarah were the ones who brought him down. Nancy and Lauren flipped after everyone was arrested to avoid harsher punishment.
@@virginiamartinez1943 anyone can comment however whether you like it or not. Mark Vincentian is either the dumbest man alive or is being disingenuous. I don’t believe for a second he didn’t notice Reniere flirting. Reniere is a narcissist and he would want to flaunt this in front of the other much better looking men. So get off your horse. We are free to comment!
It's so satisfying hearing you debrief all of this stuff. I couldn't unpack my own high control group experience until I learned to identify codependency and emotional abuse, a decade after I'd left, a decade in which I'd spent in an emotionally abusive relationship. I've been actively researching / unpacking for a few years and lately on this path I've been down the ex-cult hole. This one is so fascinating to me both because I was living in the area and because Keith reminds me so much of my ex. I love that you call out the tantrum of the emotional manipulation. I realized my own intimate terrorist was just saying salacious things because they enjoyed upsetting me. It was hard to realize that I'd taken him at his word and reacted accordingly for so long. The emperor has no clothes! Learning the pattern is powerful! I'm so glad you're speaking out and sharing all you've learned, and I'm really looking forward to Empathy Not Included!
I’ve appreciated all of the videos so much, Mark. I didn’t know the music was Bonnie, but it made me bawl because I grew up with a covert narcissist parent, and I felt it so deeply. What a true gift you’ve each given of your own skills in processing this.
The weirdest thing to me was that he told her that her kissing another dude made him consider resigning as Vanguard. It made 0 sense and she bought it. All day today every time something went remotely wrong I yelled “I’m thinking of resigning as Vanguard!” Forgot to switch the laundry, cant find my keys, kids acting up “Im thinking of resigning as Vanguard!” Also seeing Nicki 15 years later im blown away. She’s gone.
I've watched some of the dossier project reactions to the 2nd season and Nicki still worships Keith. She's treating the man who insisted there were no victims like a victim. The cognitive dissonance is hard for me to take.
Bonnie is amazing 🖤🥹 as are you, but she is so beautiful inside and out. Her voice is so powerful. I've always loved that song since I've heard it on the vow. I thought it was her but wasnt sure 🥰
I knew I had heard that song before! It was played over the scene where you and Bonnie find out that Keith had been arrested in season 1. Beautiful song, beautifully sung! You both are so talented. I'm glad you've come out of all of this to find peace, and hope you will always have peace!
OMG Marc - THANK YOU for ending with Bonnie's amazing song! I have wanted to hear this piece in its entirety, and to have it presented to cap off such an emotionally devastating episode of the podcast leaves things with such a sense of power and optimism. The two of you have demonstrated so much resilience through this journey, and it's inspiring to see you emerge intact on the other side. Be well!
This episode was very disturbing to watch. I can't imagine how hard it must be for those involved. I could be wrong but it seems like Raniere took some sort of sick pleasure in revealing the tricks he was playing in veiled ways. It's quite chilling. Keep up the great work Mark
I had mixed feeling about Nancy in this episode for the first time. Initially she's not taking accountability at all for any of it, but there's this moment she admits that she allowed Keith to use her credibility to abuse people and that was a rare moment of clarity from her. She's still missing the point in a lot of ways but that was the first time I felt any kind of hope that she could see through the bs.
Agree. Then I got mad all over again. I was watching on my phone trying to put my fussy baby to sleep. My husband was in the livingroom watching on the TV about 15 mins behind and I texted my husband “omg warning Nancy Salzmen butt plug scene” thinking he would die laughing. I got out there in time to see him watching and he actually was disgusted she was laughing. He said “her daughter could have wound up in that cage and shes laughing” and he was right. Shes a terrible mother and has zero self awareness
@@crxshcrxshcrxsh i think through her willful ignorance or her own self obsession she more or less gave Lauren over to Keith. I know she was an “adult” but she had the foundation of this batshit crazy mother who she grew up probably trying to please. Then when Nancy was too busy to be bothered anymore Lauren started to try to obtain that approval from Keith. Thankful her sister didnt suffer quite as much. Nancy is the Anti-Katherine Oxenburg. She fed her kid to the monster.
And that’s why Nancy is so dangerous! She’s a professional con woman and a brilliant manipulator. That’s how the cult grew so rapidly. She can convince anyone of anything she wants because she studies people. She counts on good people to give her the benefit of the doubt and feel sorry for her. Keith is her mirror and together they did so much damage. It’s heartbreaking.
Exactly. ZERO sympathy from me towards Nancy. She is a despicable human being and there is a reason people feared her. Her “boohoo I’m a victim too” routine doesn’t work on me
Intro was great, so on point. I had this kind of abusive / coersive / sadistic relationship in intimate relationship rather than a cult but, it is all similar. Almost same. The most basic mistake is to think another human being as vulnerable and normal empathy just because they have similar looks. best intro.
Mark, I believe the word besides “sadness” you are looking for is anguish. When I heard Mark’s voice begin to tremble the grief and anguish in his body language is visceral. Take care of yourself and much love to Bonnie ❤
This episode was so infuriating to watch there are just no words. When you could hear the words coming from Keith’s mouth talking about the brand and his initials I had to take a break before I could continue because it was just so nauseating. It’s so sad because even in those moments he’s still taking an opportunity to demean one of the women which just shows that he was so vigilant to take any moment that he could to “correct” someone around him or put someone down to just break down their identity and self-esteem. He’s such a coward. But thank you for breaking down the episode it must have been so hard because for us as viewers this is hard to watch and we don’t know these people personally so I can’t imagine being in your position. I really hope there comes a day where no one is in Keith’s clutches and he’s completely alone like he deserves.
I rememebr listening to one of the “dossier” zoom calls (members of DOS who want to protect Kieth still) and one of them admitted that it was messed up, but “it wasn’t for everyone and I made a promise that I have to keep”. I felt so bad for her. One of the other members kept trying to get her to back pedal about how messed up the situation was, but she stood firm that it was bad, but they made a promise to commit no matter what. 😰
Those poor women are so deluded. They can admit no mistakes or anything negative. They never answer any questions directly. They are so good at gaslighting, they have done it to themselves.
Omg!! Bonnie is amazing!! I have downloaded all of her songs on iTunes, back during season 1 when she sang for you, but where can I download that song?? She is amazing!! Wow. Best to you both and thanks for all you do to help guide the lost home!
I LOVED the song at the end of the episode...those lyrics. I wondered if it was your wife. Amazing job Bonnie! It's one of the best songs I've heard in a decade. I would download this on Spotify. T hanks for doing debriefs after each episode airs Mark.
I was writing to Mr. Vicente myself because I find him to be highly in touch with his masculine and feminine side as we all have and I remember that one scene in the first season where Catherine Oxenberg and Bonnie were laughing out of probably painful painful issues sometimes you have to laugh because you’ll not be able to stop crying so when they were laughing about it they were it was a release and Mr. Vicente was listening and I knew he kind of understood it but I could tell behind His eyes his facial expression his body language Mark is not an overly gregarious person like Mark if I were to ever send you a video of what I put up on my UA-cam channel I don’t know if you laugh or not because I’m pretty obnoxious you’re not you’re an intelligent fun but I mean I’m talking obnoxious you’re not I am but what I’m trying to say is what am I trying to say oh I have to send another reply because I forget sorry I have a short term memory and I can’t type so bear with me
What I was trying to say is one of the it was a penance and Bonnie had to sleep on the floor and you were there Catherine Oxenberg I think that’s her name from prince Charles‘s fifth cousin or something oh my what a tangled web we weave at any rate he said Mark Vicente said this isn’t funny this isn’t funny like that man was brainwashed to believe that it was OK and that’s why he got upset he wasn’t angry at the women and his wife are Catherine Oxenberg he was angry at himself and that takes a lot of insight and integrity and vulnerability to speak his truth Gree that he is so brave like the brave like all of the rest of them that that that started the season of this trilogy and it was not Marks fault so whoever said that you’re on the wrong UA-cam channel
I read the letter you wrote to the judge and it hit me like a ton of bricks!! Absolutely horrifying! Horrifying! I still gave the benefit of the doubt to Nancy and it is gone. She was as drunk with power as KR was. Rotten to the bone but she still presents herself as a victim. It is a disgrace. A disgrace to all the victims of her abuse.
Absolutely agree! I read the letters to the judge, and the other ones to the inside people and just the other ones he wrote, and I was so mad at Nancy too. She tried real hard to be like "but why my company!?" And it's like duh? The distancing is ridiculous too.
Keith's got Nicki Clyne and she's never going to abandon him. All she talks about is how great Keith and DOS were. She also insults those of you that blew the whistle, which angers me. I was in a cult- the Jehovah's Witnesses- and these high control groups are dangerous. Keith talking about NXIVM affecting the next presidential election was terrifying. I wondered if that was Bonnie's song!! It's beautiful, thank you for sharing the whole thing with us.
Nancy's (apparent) persistence in not facing HER responsibilities as a mother, woman and leader as a participant in the subjugation & emotional abuse of so many women in the inner core is one of the more shocking things that should be given more time to detail.
The thing that is startling about all this is watching Keith talk to his followers like Nancy or Allison and the look of wonder and awe in their eyes is just so spooky.
This is so fuck*d up. I am currently writing about consciousness and I am stunned at the depth of bastardization and weaponization of ancient truths. I have watched another debriefing a couple of times with some other members, but yours is so in-depth and insightful. I appreciate your honesty, recollections, and sensitivity. Thank you for the window into your personal life on this. Some heavy shit.
I can not wait for ur breakdown of next episode. I had to pause a few times. I cried for those girls, felt sick to my stomach of the manipulation and torture!!! What a disgrace!!!
Thank you Mark for going even deeper into the episodes. It seems to me that most people that get involved with cults are genuinely really good people that would sacrifice themselves to do good for someone or something for the world. 😮 You mentioned that Keith was attached to worldly possessions and the company had millions but Keith always dressed and looked so dumpy. What did he spend his money on? What was he attached to?
Thankyou once again. Toughest episode to watch so far. I agree about Nancy. I've been around narcissism a very long time. They always play the long odds, if they need to survive they will produce any and every performance in the book to convince you. Given the exponential growth of Keith's power over the years, culminating in ESP and NXIUM, and DOS, my sad conclusion is that, given more time and power, he was definitely heading towards the next power trip, the ultimate one over another human being, death. I believe those women might well have become "sacrifes" for the good of the cause. Horrifying thought, but I imagine the judges and lawyers had seen similar trajectories before. Beautiful song, heartfelt and incredibly poignant. Vero is magnificent by the way.
I had my own experience, it's 20 years ago. Listening to this pulls me back in time. I still find it stunning they all follow the same playbook. The one's still in the construct you can see it in there eye's.Always the same: disconnected from there body awareness and there don't know it. What a beautifull song to conclude, even for me after so many years. With it your wife touches past present and future. THANKS
Do you ever watch The Dossier Project reactions to the Vow episodes- this episode was extremely interesting to watch especially the lack of enthusiasm from Nikki Cline compared to others. Would love your thoughts on those. Also have you seen more people waking up now that The Vow has gone into great detail?
So glad you mentioned the song. I have been following the case really closely and informally doing research on cult leaders. Many of the themes revealed in this story have helped me to revisit my personal encounters with malignant narcissists in my past. Bonnie did a tremendous job on this song. It is just so deep. It's who you are, not who you believe in. Wow!!!
Enjoyed this. And so true: you're on the naughty list and you can't get off it and you don't know why. Then you suddenly realise that it's not about honesty or opening yourself, and that it's the ones who play the game that get by in those situations
Marc, thank you for your videos and your words. I commend you wholeheartedly for seeing the light and blowing the whistle. It is truly frightening to see how sociopathic Keith is. And he preyed on people like you-people who have pureness of heart, and sincere intentions. To him, these qualities are in fact weaknesses, and therefore you were ripe for the hunt. The scariest part about Keith to me? The way he literally TOLD you and others all along how evil he was. That script you were writing together, the times he spoke about con men and sociopaths. He was literally and willingly talking about himself to absolve himself of any accountability lest anyone finds fault with organization. Kind of like a way of saying, well you knew what you were getting into kind of thing.
I don’t. He let a lot of chit happen. He had to be completely out o f it or he’s lying. He never tried to help Danielle? He had to have heard rumors. He also had to have seen Reniere the Narcissist flirting because Reniere would have wanted the better looking men, especially tall ones, to see his sexual prowess.
@@ecalose6785 I really don’t know. I honestly don’t think he cared about any other men seeing his flirting, I think he (Kieth) was solely zeroed in on the women.
It's interesting you say Pam & Marianna were child like, because listening to Nicki on the audio where they're discussing the brand, I thought it didn't sound like her. She sounded like a child-like version of herself when speaking to Keith. Also, surprised to hear Keith has three children. Previously I'd only seen two reported.
I knew it was her right away. I heard the song start and immediately said "Is that Bonnie?!" A quick google and I confirmed my suspicions. Very cool to hear the entire song here. So poignant.
This episode was just heart wrenching, I don't know what else to say about it. To know that this level of evil exists...and that people like this are at large in society, and in high places....very sad and very scary, and it explains a lot of things that's going on right now and that has been going on in the world for a long time.
Hi Mark! Thanks for sharing your experiences. I heard that the creators of the show Severance studied Nxivm for inspiration on their content. They definitely have the idea of ethical breaches in there.
Wow, your feedback provides so much more depth to the topics broached in the series. You saying there was a possible end goal of impacting politics through honey trapping... First he is far from the first cult leader to use this tactic. Jim Jones and Children of God both used this, Manson as well to a degree. To think back on the fact that the dos exercises were seduction training, literally, the homework was to seduce Keith. At first I only thought about it one dimensionally that it was just about his own appetites, this perspective adds so much additional dimension. With regard to Nancy, she is a complex one. Unfortunately possibly her own greed and ego caused her to compromise morals she may have started out with. I don’t remember it being directly addressed anywhere if Nancy was a physical partner with Keith but my initial impression is that she was and how terrible that he was sleeping with both mother and daughter. Nancy seems quite deluded into thinking any of this was ever ‘her company, her company, her company’. Nancy was a pawn just like the others, possibly seduced by the ‘D’, idolization and Keith giving her, ‘everything she wanted’. I get the impression her pleading ignorance is not quite as genuine as the frame in the documentary, it just doesn’t seem possible. Also Keith saying, I could have partnered with anybody, so and so or Anthony Robbins but he Chose Nancy….yeah buddy…..that’s because she was the one you could easily manipulate and he knew that front the onset. The fact that Nancy, saying she was a hurt and insecure person, her mothers ‘little dummy’ and then instead of protecting others based on that experience and utilizing empathy she instead also exploitied others so she could have, a company…..nobody can truly know the full truth of what happened and what is in her mind and heart, it is quite possible even she does not. I do hope that she comes to a place of being truly remorseful for the areas where she caused or contributed to hurt and pain and understand the depth and breadth of its impact. I hope that through her latter years she finds true peace and freedom. She is a victim who seemingly victimized, it is not exclusively Keith that did a number on her family, she bears almost equal if not equal culpability. So much of this ‘tech’ is so similar to Scientology I really wonder where Keith pulled some of it from. Do both paradigms share similar roots from some other literature about group think and coercion or are these just parallel movements with very similar ideologies. The truth is likely more complex than any of us will ever know. Praying that all those affected weather perpetrator, victim or both find healing for those who are capable. If Keith is a clinical psychopath it may not be possible. 🤷♀️❤ Thank you for these Podcasts Mark! You look very healthy and well and I hope are happier than ever. Your breakthrough moment of, this is the world I was meant to be in around the filmmakers. So compelling. I hope one day you find yourself as an equal among the best in the industry if that is still where your heart lies.⚡️
4 mins in and I’m already like 😮….so since watching the documentary I have come to realise that the group I belonged to in the UK was likely formed by someone who knew or belonged to NXIVM. I passed the link onto his ex second in command. His ‘Nancy’. I did this because even though she too caused harm I understood his part in why and had empathy for her. She watched it. I was then bombarded with accusatory voice notes and I quote ‘You should not compare me to her because you are a person of great influence and will make others believe it’. Projection your honour! She’s a classic Narc herself. Makes her clients vulnerable by poking their wounding then swoops in to be their hero. Many have turned to me in their recovery from this abuse. I’m so grateful I’m out and can see their manipulation for what it really is now. It also terrified me to think others perceived me as an influencer. That was and never will be my agenda. Interesting though that it threatened her when I was trying to show compassion.
Quick question. The lady who left DOS before getting branded who said she could either stay in and be blackmailed for the rest of her life, leave DOS knowing that her collateral would be released or commit suicide. Forgive me that her name escapes me. What her collateral released?
He enjoyed having women wealthier than him, smarter than him, better than him at his beck and call doing everything for him and on top of that, he can pleasure himself with them when he wants and have control over women who otherwise would thrive without him. He is sick.
This was the first time I really felt sympathy for Lauren and Nancy. I know you mentioned that Nancy at times was performing and I do agree with you (like the sex toy part while funny was very performative) but the moment at the end where she is sitting in bed talking about how Keith clearly fucked with her family, I found that truly heartbreaking and probably the most honest I think Nancy was since episode 2. I can only hope that Lauren gets to realize her dream of being a mom and again totally agree that thank god she never had his kid. Also knowing how much work and devotion and dedication she put in only for him to tell her that he was gonna have a kid with someone else who wasn’t as hardworking and just more of the body type he desired (which I think it’s weird that he was advising her on her weight for a child when having a healthy bmi is the ideal for having a kid) I don’t blame her for that breakdown. And again I said this in a previous video of yours but I still am trying to figure out the rationale of how a group blow job will empower women (not to judge the women who were made to believe that but because blow jobs when you think about it is a very subservient sexual position) and also i already disliked agnifilo but that interview on the balcony really grind my gears because nowhere does he discuss how Keith could have help with Lauren and that relationship because that narrative of these relationships were on Keith’s terms but yet no one else got to have their own terms and conditions for themselves.
Also it’s still pretty fucked up that Michelle and nicki gloss over the fact that people were told it was tattoo and not in fact a brand, and that the brand was not a symbol that represented elements but was his initials. They made it sound like how the cast of lord of the rings got tattoos together because of the crazy journey they were on filming that movie. But again, you can’t rationalize with people who aren’t willing to listen.
@@MeganSin I found it offensive too they way both of them tried to down play the initials of the brand. I actually commented on their channel asking why they used such a brutal way to brand and why was it placed it where they did? No answer as of yet.
I was shocked at the blunt confession on the tapes about the brand. And Keith saying he could change the Presidential Election with his harem of bulemic women - what an Ego. He is loathesome.
Hey Mark! I know I’m late but I wanna thank you for everything you’ve done to expose this horrific abuse and get justice for yourself and all other victims. However I wanted to let you know that the word “midget” is a slur against little people, or people with dwarfism. I totally get that you used the word in anger and KR deserves all the worst words but please don’t use this word again because it propagates harm outside of KR. Also, as a bilingual person myself, there’s no shame in pronouncing words a little differently. Your english is fantastic, you’re very well spoken, cohesive, and engaging. Don’t pay any mind to the haters of the world
Off-topic: here are some words you could use instead of "sad": 1) Regrettable 2) Woeful 3) Sick at heart 4) Grievous 5) Inconsolable (maybe too extreme) 6) Deplorable 7) Lamentable
You know I’ve got Bonnie’s very first release CD from like 1819 years ago and I was listening to her voice and she smokes how does she keep her voice so beautiful it’s just like a natural gift that she must work out it’s so hard I didn’t realize she wrote that song until you mentioned it but I love I knew it was her singing at the beginning that’s a beautiful song and it is profound and with very simplistic melodic but her voice her cadence is perfect her pitch is perfect pitchAnd the dBrief’s are so good yeah thank you for putting them up by enjoy your channel very much
This one just did me in. The depth of harm done. If you want kids, the idea that you may have lost out on it because of wasting your reproductive years on someone who just didn't care is just so incredibly sad. The depth of manipulation I just don't have the words.
I agree. Although Sarah said that Lauren might be able to have a child by other means, can you see any adoption organization thinking she’d be a fit parent after this? Guess if she has money there’s surrogacy, but I’m sure the lawyers didn’t come cheap.
Renerie was too good to be true. One lesson I have learned the hard hard way is, if someone/something is too good to be true, then it’s probably too good to be true.
Hey Mark, out of curiosity what’s up with Claire’s sister Sara? There’s not been much discussion about her from what I could see (I coulda missed something somewhere of course!) stay safe and thanks for all your hard work!
I'm not Mark obviously but she was never a part of the upper ranks. The money her and Clare made it seem that way but she wasn't charged with anything. I am curious what her beliefs are now.
There is a growing theory that cult leaders create an environment that will secure people around them, ensuring them from never being abandoned. This checks out for KR.
Mark I am so sorry that you have suffered so much at this man's hands. I think that he is a true sociopath (I have heard that narcissist's actually feel remorse, but sociopaths dont) You are the opposite of Raniere.
Funny how a psychopath took Buddhist principles intended to alleviate suffering (by reducing "attachment") & warped it to resemble his inner psychopathic world (because he lacked the ability to attach to other humans through love, empathy, etc. His limitations as a human being became his blueprint for other people, to limit and break their rapport with each other. Sick!
I was thinking when remarries or keys were in the area whatever the hell his name is when meathead The lawyer cross examined the witnesses for the prosecution how was he with them and what types of questions did they ask it’s got to be in the transcripts but I’m Canadian
Thank you Mark for your behind the scene look into what the people that actually experienced esp feel watching the Vow. My heart broke for Lauren watching this episode, it is just unfathomable that someone could use and abuse people the way KR did to all these people, but Lauren's story is just unimaginable and truly heartbreaking. What struck me in watching this episode is Nancy, although I do understand that she to is a victim it is just extremely hard for me to understand how a mother could continue to run a company that is destroying her daughter in front of her eyes. I believe, as you said, that she wasn't aware of keith and Lauren's relationship until years after they had been together but she herself admits that she knew about it when it was starting to go bad. I think KR knew that Nancy could be controlled by her greed and need for power and he used that against her the way that he used sex, love and promises of a baby against Lauren, it just erks me that someone could allow such base needs like greed and power to lead you to destroy your own children weather by your actions or inaction to protect them. In my opinion KR & Nancy deserved each other and I have a hard time finding sympathy for her but I guess that might just be my own bias, I'm interested to know what your feelings are towards Nancy now that you have all of the information and in through the lense of hindsight. Thanks again Mark, wishing you Bonnie all the best and once again sending prayers and healing vibes to all the victims of NXIVM.... even nancy lol.
The only references to the cult of J Z Knight are on Wikipedia and your IMDB pages. How did you get out of that cult? Did you? Did you realize that J Z Knight and Keith Raniere are the same creatures?
Mark Vicente, hoping you read these messages, I'm sure you've done a ton of reading and research for your book and to increase your knowledge :however I'd like to suggest works by Karen Hornsey, MD, one of the great German psychoanalysts of the 1930's. Particularly "The Neurotic Personality of our Time" written in 1937. Her amazing insight and work stands today. You will recognise Keith (and others) in the pages of this groundbreaking work, still in print, available on Amazon. Best regards x
Amazing documentary.. I find it very hard to comprehend how you can kiss in the mouth and dedicate so much time to an organization Linke this. I did The Landmark forum and they tried the invite me for more levels but this meant leaving my kids unattended for & days etc.. I just could not combine the level of commitment cost etc.. with my main responsibility in life that was my family and work. I never commit to more .. so I do find it really hard to understand how involved people where and woman where to the point of doing everything that Keith desired. It’s an extremely physiological process to comprehend S AN OUTSIDER! I saw it all thinking on my daughter and her vulnerabilities
I’m not sure if this has been mentioned in the comments but a side effect of such a low weight is often lack of menstruation. He was fucking with their fertility so there would be no unplanned pregnancies while he lorded his potential fatherhood over them.
I am glad to hear your thoughts on Nancy's sincerity, I was buying it but my BS meter was going off when she started sobbing, I think she was a victim to a certain extent, but she knew what was going on and what she was doing and still continued. I have no sympathy for her. She offered her daughter at the alter in my opinion.
Hello everyone, I am going to start by saying how much sorrow I feel for any person that suffered such torcher at the hands of Keith(evil incarnate) and I send light love and prayers for all involved. I started watching NXIVM when you were trying to get India out of the group. I know I don't know everything that went on inside this group and I never will. Whenever I think there couldn't be any sicker level of evil incarnate (Keith) he proves me wrong. The problem I am having as an outsider is with Nancy Sulzman. Do I believe evil incarnate used and abused her in many ways, YES. But I don't feel as sorry for her as I do so many others. What she said at the beginning of season 2 of the Vow hit me hard. She had to plead guilty and take the plea bargain or she was going to go to prison and she had to make sure that her daughter did as well. This tells me that Nancy belongs in prison right alongside Evil Incarnate. She helped him start the program and then thought him many of the things she knew because of her background and education that he in turn used on everyone he meet. I don't think he could have done so much damage without Nancy's help. The state and her lawyers know what she did and it was not as innocent as the show is making it out to be. Look at Ghislaine Maxwell sitting in prison for what I see Nancy has done for Keith(evil incarnate) starting with her own daughters.
That bastard Raneire stole her best years....I feel so damn sorry for Lauren. I really do. Lied to and lied to again and again. That SOB is right where he belongs.
Something uve probably been told, but important enough to mention… U still use a good amount of NXIVM language, ie “an upset”, not nearly as bad as others, but it’s part of the mind prison one has to break from. It’s just something to be mindful of, and I wholly appreciate the challenge it must be. Thanks
If you watched Nancy in the past series one, and in these clips of her, watch when she is with Keith. She slides her hand across her face and covers her mouth/. Then her hand becomes a fist. She is scared of him. Keith was not the mastermind of this tech, this was Nancys tech. Nancy was the trained one. Keith just found a niche to pull off his ‘Messiah’ trip. For Keith to have not only slept with Nancy and Lauren and tried to get with the other daughter shows his vileness. I hope the unfortunate inmates currently having to endure Keith in the Federal prison system are able to have access to some therapy.
@@tonyaa8738 I refuse to believe she didn’t at some point. I would guess she did have some kind of relationship with him early on… although it doesn’t seem like she had that kind of relationship within the last decade but who knows..
@@tonyaa8738 I don’t think that is what he wanted to use Nancy for. He needed someone to front his Company since he was prohibited from doing so after the Consumer Buyline lawsuit. He used her vulnerability around pride and the need to be needed.
@@tonyaa8738 Susan Dones claims that yes, Keith and Nancy slept together. Not very often in the later years, but he still slept with her from time to time. Susan was at Nancy's once and she could hear Nancy with a man in her bedroom and Susan said the only other person in the house at that time was Keith because his shoes were there or whatever. Also, I believe Lauren said so in her court testimony.
Yes 100% she had sex with Keith. Lauren said it on the stand too. You can see in the earlier videos she is all googoo eyes for him like a lovesick teenager. She was obviously in love with the man. What happened and how that relationship ended, we don’t know
Definitely a rough episode debrief help the understanding thanks mark! Curious have you look at dos women react towards the vow I got it on my feed a few times
As a human being I had to control my gag reflex every five minutes during this particular episode and I have seen all the episodes. I can’t imagine how horrible in retrospect it must be for the reality to the ex members. I hope all the women had there collateral return to them at least to begin a healing process, Question Mark::: We’re the men in special group required in any way to submit collateral…? BE FREE !
Mr. Vicente I watched the vow last night I couldn’t sleep I talk into my phone that’s my why my words get mixed up at any rate I was really looking forward to your debriefing this episode and I’ll leave you some thoughts I’ve also been watching the side of Mark Elliot‘s channel and the dossier or project and I’ve been trying to find Sarah Edmonson‘s podcast but I can’t find it just to get a panoramic view of it and I took so many notes on It’s like layering this onion back slowly slowly string by string by string by string by string and eventually the core is just left open wide in your Aurora nerve a raw nerve I love your channel and you have a great voice for this type of narration
Cognitive dissonance, or the inability of people to come to terms with it, might be the ultimate downfall of humanity. Hypnotism is a way to hyper-focus on a singular idea, excluding what’s been framed as incongruent to that idea. I definitely see the hypnotic effect of this and other cults. I especially found it misleading, during these EM sessions, or what Scientologists call “audits”, people were asked to feel “opposite” emotions. Emotions don’t have opposites, but it gets you thinking, on an instinctual level, that everything has a singular dimension.
Mark, can you please tell me.. how are you not absolutely disgusted by what they are leaving out of the vow part 2? they didn't even mention brandon porter in the tourrette's episode. they didn't mention daniela's confinement in the lauren episode.. wtf dude? like nancy had never seen bondage gear before!? she's supposed to be a therapist!
Mark can’t sit and torture himself with every single situation that happened within the organization. He’s already taken on so much being a whistle blower. I’m sure he’s heard plenty of horror stories and is empathetic to them but Mark shouldn’t be emotionally responsible to comment on them all. Let’s give him a little more grace. He seems to be a very beautiful person.
Mr Vicente…( I am begging for a response from you like begging on my hands and knees because I’ve written to you several times I’ve tried to find Sarah Edmondson‘s podcast I don’t know why I can’t find it but there’s something about the way you break things down that really peel back the layers of the onion and get right to the bulb and when you get to the bulb you cry I wanted to write this metaphorical beautiful song about layers and onions and anyways I had a whole lyric for it that just came to mind and my mother said why don’t you just call it onions make you cry which I thought was kind of funny !! There is nothing funny about this do you know I actually felt like throwing up I didn’t throw up but but but but however however however I cannot even explain to you how in raged it makes the viewer which means HBO is doing their job if I hear Nikki Klein say one more time that what he did wasn’t criminal and that the charges were basically bogus I have to continue on another message because I talk into my phone I don’t write I don’t have access to my laptop right now I have to buy a new computer so I’m doing this from my iPhone and I find it very difficult to type I just wanted to give you my real name my Facebook is public so you know who you’re talking to I’m starting a UA-cam channel is starting actually I’m going to put it up today and I’m going to be talking about you just so you know all positive when you told me that not me it’s like you’re so good at doing this and you’re not mirroring anything you just sit and you talk and when you stated that Cults arrest your development become emotionally or developmentally arrested I’m 51 and the reason I’m starting a UA-cam channel if you could please read this message it would mean so much to me because like you’re a compassionate person but you must get tired of people asking you for things and questions and this and that and this and that I can’t even imagine I am legitimately in Beamsville Ontario Canada I was isolated like Daniella for two years but under different circumstances and I’ve got to share the story with you and Sarah Edmondson is Canadian social understand I need help I don’t call you Mark because I don’t know you but out of respect out of everything you and your wife have been through and the other thing your wife Bonnie!!!! And there are other things you said to like I’m going to go through it methodically and write it like I will type it out so it’s more engaging to read but what I wanted to share with you was I am p Kieth Re’sphingyary that means pig and Ukrainian. When are you posting your episode five debrief in reference to that I can’t even think of a word I’ve even looked in the dictionary there are no words to describe what she went through it’s insidious it’s apparent it’s a vile it’s evil and she is like an angel nobody is perfect the only thing that I could compare this to in my life because in these stories are so many people stories in abusive relationships being abused by corruption and do you know Mr Vicente this is the absolute truth coming to you my name is Lasha Margaret LEYNA and my last name is spelt ROJENKO. I’m 51 years old my Facebook is public why I was in a wheelchair for one year and this is in relation to your story and Nexium or sorry NEXIVM I know it’s executive success program and then there is the French school what happened is Sarah Brothmen. ?????
Yeah, Raniere even wanted to bed Sarah eventually. Raniere must have been so jealous of Nippy being an athlete and thought, "I'll show him. I'll sleep with his wife and we'll keep it a secret from him. Wouldn't that be delicious?" The little man was always threatened by other people's talents and prowess.
And what I wanted to say about the surgery that was so heartbreaking is because I broke the femur I didn’t break my knee I went in to the surgery with two perfectly good knees and I could not bend my knee for almost 3 years because of the scar tissue because he literally put house size nails underneath my kneecap which stopped my knee from bending which anybody could see Even the physiotherapist and I said what did the doctor do nobody would say anything even the surgeons that corrected my life I could barely say anything I put them in such a terrible position do you know one of the orthopaedic surgeons actually validated and said to me it must be more difficult for you because now I have to go for a Lidacane And Cortizone shots in my knee and my back because I walked so strange for almost 3 1/2 years and then one year without walking and it was the most isolating lonely painful physically painful mentally painful isolating experience because when you live a high control environment the people that even worked with me my that I thought were friends stop calling because that’s what Cults do they just go on. And wasn’t allowed to have contact and then half the people that wanted my job well two of the girls that really wanted the job that I had got it and then ended up getting fired I would not sign the dotted line until I got a letter of recommendation from human resources that just didn’t tell me or tell the potential employer that I worked this from time to this time and these are my duties no no no no I wanted laudatory comments I’m a team player I take initiative the company use a strategy book that I made for the region that I worked in and they may tip cards throughout the company so I understand and when I used to try to explain to the women I worked with this as a cult don’t lose your personality because if you don’t have this and the other thing they make you do do you know that they made me fly from Nova Scotia to San Diego in the middle of my vacation because I was promoted and it wouldn’t look good to the training department if I left didn’t leave my vacation and I did and the thing that hurts so bad about the doctor is not only the continued physical pain I have I feel like I was absolutely violated I wasn’t sexually assaulted I wasn’t raped my leg was raped by a knife and the Doctor Who did it said Nothing and thanks to you and Bonnie ( your wife you’re blessed absolutely intelligent wife) and Catherine Oxenberg, in India Oxenberg and Sarah Edmondson and her husband Anthany and you said that friend of yours passed away Jim I remember watching him as in The VOW lots of volleyball shorts and I remember what he looks like and I think that’s the man that Anthony or “nippy” said that this person taught him more about compassion and love et cetera and you said that he was under Kieth re:nary medical supervision and died!!!!! This story you have to understand that when I was in that wheelchair for a year and then you have to understand I didn’t have money to heal myself through physio and son so I did it by myself and what was my saviour was my dog Sophie N and I don’t know for some reason I just I’m gonna sound like a crazy stalker if I keep doing this but I’m I when people defier say oh I’m not like this they usually are I am very stubborn I’m going to keep writing and writing and writing until something profound catches the attention of somebody because I am 51 still looking for my people however the way my life has gone around it’s me at the end of the day L I am very happy because I’ve come through all of these things and I wanna share with people how did I come through this trauma without therapy with ouch it was through singing it was I’m able to still dance I’m a terrible guitar player but I love it I am just so happy that all of you are safe and that India Oxenberg I can’t wait to watch her you know through social media or whatever watch her grow up beautiful beautiful woman and you know when you watch a show like that and it’s so intimate and this is something very new but something that you started with What the bleep do we know you are using what the fuck before emoticons came along
I was really struck by this whole ethical breach thing. I was under the impression that Keith was just waiting for an excuse to call an ethical beach on somebody just so he can control them and have them spend the rest of their lives doing anything he wanted them to do to try to make it up to him with them always falling just a little bit short so he can keep that control. Obviously the latter part is true, but I didn’t realize that he was just that fragile and petty that he really was pissed off at stuff like Lauren’s moment of celebration at a volleyball game. It didn’t matter that he was having sex with dozens of women. This piece of shit really believed he was disrespected and had been wronged. Interesting how according to him, the only way a woman can achieve real growth is by having sex with him. He flat out says this to Lauren that the only way for her to grow is to participate in the group blowjob. That is some disturbing shit. I was really glad that Lauren’s sister didn’t have sex with Keith. He accused her of an ethical breach and she was just like @whi is this 40 year old guy? Screw him. But then she said that Nancy was pressuring her to repair the relationship. I’m sorry but that is seriously fucked up. Her own mother was throwing her under the bus and pressuring her to appease Keith. So much about the episode and this podcast was just eye opening here. Thanks for this podcast Mark. I can’t imagine how difficult this must be to discuss a lot of these things
Thank you MARK & BONNIE for SHARING EVERYTHING & being OPEN & HONEST. I CAN'T SUPPORT the group of WOMEN on UA-cam that are STILL FOLLOWING KEITH, that are REACTING TO THE VOW EPISODES. I believe these group of women are DANGEROUS & have SOLD OUT their own GENDER & HUMANITY. We love what you & BONNIE, we admire the BRAVERY OF YOUR GROUP. You could of just left, but you couldn't . You & your group decided to make people aware of the REAL TRUTH & how DANGEROUS KEITH really was & how DANGEROUS KEITH & his group of WOMEN still are. I THANK YOU for doing the VIDEOS for us to UNDERSTAND. WE SUPPORT YOU & BONNIE. I'm PRAYING for the RECOVERY of EVERYONE INVOLVED in this kind of MISTREATMENT of HUMANITY. 🤗💖
I have some questions if you have time to answer them question one 1) in seduced Catherine Oxenberg said that Nikki idiotically posted a picture of herself and that’s how Mexican police located him and the women. And you’re right with Laura Salsman said and never crossed my mind that Keith would choose Keith and when you said those are powerful words they were but my point is because it is like a religion some of the things that you were talking about that you studied I didn’t even know what they were something about psychedelic psychology??? Lol not laughing at you I’m laughing at me because it wasn’t psychedelic that you said but that’s a breach so is that why she is wasting her life because she feels that she owes him something and he is so dangerous that he’ll use people from the outside he shouldn’t be allowed to have contact with anybody associated with ever with ESP. And I can’t believe the cognitive dissidents or the absolute delusions of the Dr Daniella and Michelle who was Rachel in the vow I figured out who she was but anyways that was one question 2) Sometimes I don’t know whether to get mad at those people or to feel bad for those people but everything that they were trained for and what ethics are about there doing the complete opposite but they don’t see it that way and at one point on the dossier project that they have I watch their debriefs after yours and I enjoyed your deep debrief is better than HBO but at any rate Michelle actually said that she felt that Nancy didn’t understand that she did anything wrong and I thought did we just watch the same documentary?
You know as an outside viewer I thought the idea he was teaching was a sort of movement for good, connection, and progress in the world and indeed does inspire. But once you realize he was sleeping with so many women I truly think it crosses that line and would make you question motives. I watched the dossier project and I do enjoy hearing both opinions but I don’t see how someone can say this man deserves a clear reputation and freedom.
I think that’s why he kept the ladies so thin. It’s can be extremely difficult to conceive at such low body weight. People with EDs and in sports where weight is strictly monitored often stop having menstruation. It seems like something he would craft IMO.
Exactly. He kept them thin to keep them weak and compliant, but it also had the added side effect of making it harder to get pregnant. And according to India, Nancy knew all about it.
I thought it's because he's a pedo and super thin women look more like girls than women? One of the victims said he couldn't get it up before she lost weight
@@roksana1736 I think it’s all part of it. Yes, I think he liked to keep them looking young. I also think there was an added “benefit” of not getting caught out as early since there weren’t a bunch of mini-KRs running around.
I've just tried to watch the DOS group reaction to Episode 4 and I could not get through it all, I've managed to watch the other ones as I felt it important to hear what they said. But honestly, the sad delusional quality of their responses is too much to bear. I hope they wake up, but while they are still apologists for abuse I cannot listen to them anymore.
Bonnie’s song is hauntingly beautiful. Moved me to tears. She is so brave. To walk away is one thing. Scary as hell! To walk away alone when the man you love and share your life, your soul, your bed with is still very much in…oh my fucking god to have that kind of strength! She’s a gorgeous human, inside and out! (But I don’t have to tell you that 😉)
P.S. Those of us who saw The Vow Season 1 and then saw Obi-Wan Kenobi already knew she was kick-ass and weren’t surprised at all. I, for one, was like “HELL YEAH!!! Glad they figured out she needs more than to just say fucking ‘hello’.” (My husband was totally confused 😂)
Looking forward to more great things from both of you ❤
This episode was easily the hardest to watch and made me genuinely nauseous a couple times. Keith is truly sadistic, and the information in episode 4 just confirms it. The depth of pain that this man caused so many people is just unfathomable, and I have empathy for those sucked in by it and destroyed by it. I hope Lauren and all the others find healing, and I hope you and the others who blew the whistle and eventually brought him down continue to find healing. I had no idea Bonnie was the one who did the song at the end! It is a truly beautiful piece of music.
didn't lauren and nancy blow the whistle to save their own skin? This is so clear to me.
What a RUDE COMMENT! You have NO IDEA of what MARK AND BONNIE went through. Thank you MARK for your VIDEOS. Thank you for being HONEST & OPEN,this includes everybody that is in your group .I'm in awe of your BRAVERY. I'm PRAYING for HEALING & GROWTH. 🤗💗
@@virginiamartinez1943 I don’t think it was a rude comment. She never mentioned Mark or Bonnie. Nancy and Lauren are just as evil as Keith and never would have gone against anything Keith did or said if they didn’t need a plea deal. As honorable as Mark and Bonnie are, Nancy and Lauren are the opposite of honorable.
@@middlemarie2 They definitely weren't the ones to originally blow the whistle. Mark, Bonnie, Nippy, and Sarah were the ones who brought him down. Nancy and Lauren flipped after everyone was arrested to avoid harsher punishment.
@@virginiamartinez1943 anyone can comment however whether you like it or not. Mark Vincentian is either the dumbest man alive or is being disingenuous. I don’t believe for a second he didn’t notice Reniere flirting. Reniere is a narcissist and he would want to flaunt this in front of the other much better looking men. So get off your horse. We are free to comment!
Beutiful song and beautiful voice. Impossible not be emotional with this tone.
That song hit so hard . Beautiful and tragic . This episode was hard to watch.
It's so satisfying hearing you debrief all of this stuff. I couldn't unpack my own high control group experience until I learned to identify codependency and emotional abuse, a decade after I'd left, a decade in which I'd spent in an emotionally abusive relationship. I've been actively researching / unpacking for a few years and lately on this path I've been down the ex-cult hole. This one is so fascinating to me both because I was living in the area and because Keith reminds me so much of my ex. I love that you call out the tantrum of the emotional manipulation. I realized my own intimate terrorist was just saying salacious things because they enjoyed upsetting me. It was hard to realize that I'd taken him at his word and reacted accordingly for so long. The emperor has no clothes! Learning the pattern is powerful! I'm so glad you're speaking out and sharing all you've learned, and I'm really looking forward to Empathy Not Included!
Great work Mark - these debriefs really help to unpack everything in the documentary. Keep it up!
I’ve appreciated all of the videos so much, Mark. I didn’t know the music was Bonnie, but it made me bawl because I grew up with a covert narcissist parent, and I felt it so deeply. What a true gift you’ve each given of your own skills in processing this.
The weirdest thing to me was that he told her that her kissing another dude made him consider resigning as Vanguard. It made 0 sense and she bought it. All day today every time something went remotely wrong I yelled “I’m thinking of resigning as Vanguard!” Forgot to switch the laundry, cant find my keys, kids acting up “Im thinking of resigning as Vanguard!”
Also seeing Nicki 15 years later im blown away. She’s gone.
LOL now I’m going to think that. And yes Nicki to me looks dead behind the eyes and her refusal to snap out of it is infuriating.
@@fighterflight Both those girls are so brainwashed and sad.
@@fighterflight Vincente is infuriating.
@@ecalose6785 oh look, someone who still worships Keith.
I've watched some of the dossier project reactions to the 2nd season and Nicki still worships Keith. She's treating the man who insisted there were no victims like a victim. The cognitive dissonance is hard for me to take.
Bonnie is amazing 🖤🥹 as are you, but she is so beautiful inside and out. Her voice is so powerful. I've always loved that song since I've heard it on the vow. I thought it was her but wasnt sure 🥰
I knew I had heard that song before! It was played over the scene where you and Bonnie find out that Keith had been arrested in season 1. Beautiful song, beautifully sung! You both are so talented. I'm glad you've come out of all of this to find peace, and hope you will always have peace!
OMG Marc - THANK YOU for ending with Bonnie's amazing song! I have wanted to hear this piece in its entirety, and to have it presented to cap off such an emotionally devastating episode of the podcast leaves things with such a sense of power and optimism. The two of you have demonstrated so much resilience through this journey, and it's inspiring to see you emerge intact on the other side. Be well!
“Fucking midget” I feel like I shouldn’t laugh, but that delivery. 😂
I laughed out loud x
this is an ableist slur actually
@@pleasegovegan he meant it as in “emotionally stunted” and not in any way literally
@@fighterflight doesnt matter, it's an ableist slur no matter how it's used
This episode was very disturbing to watch. I can't imagine how hard it must be for those involved.
I could be wrong but it seems like Raniere took some sort of sick pleasure in revealing the tricks he was playing in veiled ways. It's quite chilling.
Keep up the great work Mark
I had mixed feeling about Nancy in this episode for the first time. Initially she's not taking accountability at all for any of it, but there's this moment she admits that she allowed Keith to use her credibility to abuse people and that was a rare moment of clarity from her. She's still missing the point in a lot of ways but that was the first time I felt any kind of hope that she could see through the bs.
Agree. Then I got mad all over again. I was watching on my phone trying to put my fussy baby to sleep. My husband was in the livingroom watching on the TV about 15 mins behind and I texted my husband “omg warning Nancy Salzmen butt plug scene” thinking he would die laughing. I got out there in time to see him watching and he actually was disgusted she was laughing. He said “her daughter could have wound up in that cage and shes laughing” and he was right. Shes a terrible mother and has zero self awareness
@@HelloNewMoon the the amount of times I yelled "yeah but what about your daughter, Nancy?" at my TV while watching this season....
@@crxshcrxshcrxsh i think through her willful ignorance or her own self obsession she more or less gave Lauren over to Keith. I know she was an “adult” but she had the foundation of this batshit crazy mother who she grew up probably trying to please. Then when Nancy was too busy to be bothered anymore Lauren started to try to obtain that approval from Keith. Thankful her sister didnt suffer quite as much. Nancy is the Anti-Katherine Oxenburg. She fed her kid to the monster.
And that’s why Nancy is so dangerous! She’s a professional con woman and a brilliant manipulator. That’s how the cult grew so rapidly. She can convince anyone of anything she wants because she studies people. She counts on good people to give her the benefit of the doubt and feel sorry for her. Keith is her mirror and together they did so much damage. It’s heartbreaking.
Exactly. ZERO sympathy from me towards Nancy. She is a despicable human being and there is a reason people feared her. Her “boohoo I’m a victim too” routine doesn’t work on me
Intro was great, so on point. I had this kind of abusive / coersive / sadistic relationship in intimate relationship rather than a cult but, it is all similar. Almost same. The most basic mistake is to think another human being as vulnerable and normal empathy just because they have similar looks. best intro.
Mark, I believe the word besides “sadness” you are looking for is anguish. When I heard Mark’s voice begin to tremble the grief and anguish in his body language is visceral.
Take care of yourself and much love to Bonnie ❤
"they were his flying monkeys" Outstanding.
This episode was so infuriating to watch there are just no words. When you could hear the words coming from Keith’s mouth talking about the brand and his initials I had to take a break before I could continue because it was just so nauseating. It’s so sad because even in those moments he’s still taking an opportunity to demean one of the women which just shows that he was so vigilant to take any moment that he could to “correct” someone around him or put someone down to just break down their identity and self-esteem. He’s such a coward.
But thank you for breaking down the episode it must have been so hard because for us as viewers this is hard to watch and we don’t know these people personally so I can’t imagine being in your position. I really hope there comes a day where no one is in Keith’s clutches and he’s completely alone like he deserves.
I don't know how to contact you, but Bonnie's music has brought me to tears. Please let her know her music is appreciated.
I rememebr listening to one of the “dossier” zoom calls (members of DOS who want to protect Kieth still) and one of them admitted that it was messed up, but “it wasn’t for everyone and I made a promise that I have to keep”. I felt so bad for her. One of the other members kept trying to get her to back pedal about how messed up the situation was, but she stood firm that it was bad, but they made a promise to commit no matter what. 😰
Those poor women are so deluded. They can admit no mistakes or anything negative. They never answer any questions directly. They are so good at gaslighting, they have done it to themselves.
Omg!! Bonnie is amazing!! I have downloaded all of her songs on iTunes, back during season 1 when she sang for you, but where can I download that song?? She is amazing!! Wow. Best to you both and thanks for all you do to help guide the lost home!
This is off topic… but LOVE your lighting lol
I LOVED the song at the end of the episode...those lyrics. I wondered if it was your wife. Amazing job Bonnie! It's one of the best songs I've heard in a decade. I would download this on Spotify. T
hanks for doing debriefs after each episode airs Mark.
I was writing to Mr. Vicente myself because I find him to be highly in touch with his masculine and feminine side as we all have and I remember that one scene in the first season where Catherine Oxenberg and Bonnie were laughing out of probably painful painful issues sometimes you have to laugh because you’ll not be able to stop crying so when they were laughing about it they were it was a release and Mr. Vicente was listening and I knew he kind of understood it but I could tell behind His eyes his facial expression his body language Mark is not an overly gregarious person like Mark if I were to ever send you a video of what I put up on my UA-cam channel I don’t know if you laugh or not because I’m pretty obnoxious you’re not you’re an intelligent fun but I mean I’m talking obnoxious you’re not I am but what I’m trying to say is what am I trying to say oh I have to send another reply because I forget sorry I have a short term memory and I can’t type so bear with me
What I was trying to say is one of the it was a penance and Bonnie had to sleep on the floor and you were there Catherine Oxenberg I think that’s her name from prince Charles‘s fifth cousin or something oh my what a tangled web we weave at any rate he said Mark Vicente said this isn’t funny this isn’t funny like that man was brainwashed to believe that it was OK and that’s why he got upset he wasn’t angry at the women and his wife are Catherine Oxenberg he was angry at himself and that takes a lot of insight and integrity and vulnerability to speak his truth Gree that he is so brave like the brave like all of the rest of them that that that started the season of this trilogy and it was not Marks fault so whoever said that you’re on the wrong UA-cam channel
I read the letter you wrote to the judge and it hit me like a ton of bricks!! Absolutely horrifying! Horrifying! I still gave the benefit of the doubt to Nancy and it is gone. She was as drunk with power as KR was. Rotten to the bone but she still presents herself as a victim. It is a disgrace. A disgrace to all the victims of her abuse.
Absolutely agree! I read the letters to the judge, and the other ones to the inside people and just the other ones he wrote, and I was so mad at Nancy too. She tried real hard to be like "but why my company!?" And it's like duh? The distancing is ridiculous too.
Keith's got Nicki Clyne and she's never going to abandon him. All she talks about is how great Keith and DOS were. She also insults those of you that blew the whistle, which angers me. I was in a cult- the Jehovah's Witnesses- and these high control groups are dangerous. Keith talking about NXIVM affecting the next presidential election was terrifying. I wondered if that was Bonnie's song!! It's beautiful, thank you for sharing the whole thing with us.
Nancy's (apparent) persistence in not facing HER responsibilities as a mother, woman and leader as a participant in the subjugation & emotional abuse of so many women in the inner core is one of the more shocking things that should be given more time to detail.
Beautiful song.
I can't wait for the commentary on episode 5
Yeah, let’s here this righteous commentary. !
The thing that is startling about all this is watching Keith talk to his followers like Nancy or Allison and the look of wonder and awe in their eyes is just so spooky.
This is so fuck*d up. I am currently writing about consciousness and I am stunned at the depth of bastardization and weaponization of ancient truths. I have watched another debriefing a couple of times with some other members, but yours is so in-depth and insightful. I appreciate your honesty, recollections, and sensitivity. Thank you for the window into your personal life on this. Some heavy shit.
The song is so hauntingly beautiful. Bonnie did such an incredible job.
I can not wait for ur breakdown of next episode. I had to pause a few times. I cried for those girls, felt sick to my stomach of the manipulation and torture!!! What a disgrace!!!
Oh god that next episode was insane and made Keith look worse than he already did which I didn’t think was possible
Thank you Mark for going even deeper into the episodes. It seems to me that most people that get involved with cults are genuinely really good people that would sacrifice themselves to do good for someone or something for the world. 😮
You mentioned that Keith was attached to worldly possessions and the company had millions but Keith always dressed and looked so dumpy. What did he spend his money on? What was he attached to?
Thankyou once again. Toughest episode to watch so far. I agree about Nancy. I've been around narcissism a very long time. They always play the long odds, if they need to survive they will produce any and every performance in the book to convince you. Given the exponential growth of Keith's power over the years, culminating in ESP and NXIUM, and DOS, my sad conclusion is that, given more time and power, he was definitely heading towards the next power trip, the ultimate one over another human being, death. I believe those women might well have become "sacrifes" for the good of the cause. Horrifying thought, but I imagine the judges and lawyers had seen similar trajectories before. Beautiful song, heartfelt and incredibly poignant. Vero is magnificent by the way.
Thank you for making these videos. Please keep making them.
I had my own experience, it's 20 years ago. Listening to this pulls me back in time. I still find it stunning they all follow the same playbook. The one's still in the construct you can see it in there eye's.Always the same: disconnected from there body awareness and there don't know it. What a beautifull song to conclude, even for me after so many years. With it your wife touches past present and future. THANKS
Do you ever watch The Dossier Project reactions to the Vow episodes- this episode was extremely interesting to watch especially the lack of enthusiasm from Nikki Cline compared to others. Would love your thoughts on those. Also have you seen more people waking up now that The Vow has gone into great detail?
Also Linda Chung should've waited to hit the bottle till after the zoom. She was so sloppy drunk. Cringe!!!
So glad you mentioned the song. I have been following the case really closely and informally doing research on cult leaders. Many of the themes revealed in this story have helped me to revisit my personal encounters with malignant narcissists in my past. Bonnie did a tremendous job on this song. It is just so deep. It's who you are, not who you believe in. Wow!!!
Enjoyed this. And so true: you're on the naughty list and you can't get off it and you don't know why. Then you suddenly realise that it's not about honesty or opening yourself, and that it's the ones who play the game that get by in those situations
Marc, thank you for your videos and your words. I commend you wholeheartedly for seeing the light and blowing the whistle. It is truly frightening to see how sociopathic Keith is. And he preyed on people like you-people who have pureness of heart, and sincere intentions. To him, these qualities are in fact weaknesses, and therefore you were ripe for the hunt. The scariest part about Keith to me? The way he literally TOLD you and others all along how evil he was. That script you were writing together, the times he spoke about con men and sociopaths. He was literally and willingly talking about himself to absolve himself of any accountability lest anyone finds fault with organization. Kind of like a way of saying, well you knew what you were getting into kind of thing.
I don’t. He let a lot of chit happen. He had to be completely out o f it or he’s lying. He never tried to help Danielle? He had to have heard rumors. He also had to have seen Reniere the Narcissist flirting because Reniere would have wanted the better looking men, especially tall ones, to see his sexual prowess.
@@ecalose6785 I really don’t know. I honestly don’t think he cared about any other men seeing his flirting, I think he (Kieth) was solely zeroed in on the women.
It's interesting you say Pam & Marianna were child like, because listening to Nicki on the audio where they're discussing the brand, I thought it didn't sound like her. She sounded like a child-like version of herself when speaking to Keith.
Also, surprised to hear Keith has three children. Previously I'd only seen two reported.
I knew it was her right away. I heard the song start and immediately said "Is that Bonnie?!" A quick google and I confirmed my suspicions. Very cool to hear the entire song here. So poignant.
This episode was just heart wrenching, I don't know what else to say about it. To know that this level of evil exists...and that people like this are at large in society, and in high places....very sad and very scary, and it explains a lot of things that's going on right now and that has been going on in the world for a long time.
Hi Mark! Thanks for sharing your experiences. I heard that the creators of the show Severance studied Nxivm for inspiration on their content. They definitely have the idea of ethical breaches in there.
Wow. I did not know that. Thanks for the headsup!
Mark please put Bonnie's song on Spotify
Wow, your feedback provides so much more depth to the topics broached in the series. You saying there was a possible end goal of impacting politics through honey trapping... First he is far from the first cult leader to use this tactic. Jim Jones and Children of God both used this, Manson as well to a degree. To think back on the fact that the dos exercises were seduction training, literally, the homework was to seduce Keith. At first I only thought about it one dimensionally that it was just about his own appetites, this perspective adds so much additional dimension. With regard to Nancy, she is a complex one. Unfortunately possibly her own greed and ego caused her to compromise morals she may have started out with. I don’t remember it being directly addressed anywhere if Nancy was a physical partner with Keith but my initial impression is that she was and how terrible that he was sleeping with both mother and daughter. Nancy seems quite deluded into thinking any of this was ever ‘her company, her company, her company’. Nancy was a pawn just like the others, possibly seduced by the ‘D’, idolization and Keith giving her, ‘everything she wanted’. I get the impression her pleading ignorance is not quite as genuine as the frame in the documentary, it just doesn’t seem possible. Also Keith saying, I could have partnered with anybody, so and so or Anthony Robbins but he Chose Nancy….yeah buddy…..that’s because she was the one you could easily manipulate and he knew that front the onset. The fact that Nancy, saying she was a hurt and insecure person, her mothers ‘little dummy’ and then instead of protecting others based on that experience and utilizing empathy she instead also exploitied others so she could have, a company…..nobody can truly know the full truth of what happened and what is in her mind and heart, it is quite possible even she does not. I do hope that she comes to a place of being truly remorseful for the areas where she caused or contributed to hurt and pain and understand the depth and breadth of its impact. I hope that through her latter years she finds true peace and freedom. She is a victim who seemingly victimized, it is not exclusively Keith that did a number on her family, she bears almost equal if not equal culpability. So much of this ‘tech’ is so similar to Scientology I really wonder where Keith pulled some of it from. Do both paradigms share similar roots from some other literature about group think and coercion or are these just parallel movements with very similar ideologies. The truth is likely more complex than any of us will ever know. Praying that all those affected weather perpetrator, victim or both find healing for those who are capable. If Keith is a clinical psychopath it may not be possible. 🤷♀️❤ Thank you for these Podcasts Mark! You look very healthy and well and I hope are happier than ever. Your breakthrough moment of, this is the world I was meant to be in around the filmmakers. So compelling. I hope one day you find yourself as an equal among the best in the industry if that is still where your heart lies.⚡️
4 mins in and I’m already like 😮….so since watching the documentary I have come to realise that the group I belonged to in the UK was likely formed by someone who knew or belonged to NXIVM. I passed the link onto his ex second in command. His ‘Nancy’. I did this because even though she too caused harm I understood his part in why and had empathy for her. She watched it. I was then bombarded with accusatory voice notes and I quote ‘You should not compare me to her because you are a person of great influence and will make others believe it’. Projection your honour! She’s a classic Narc herself. Makes her clients vulnerable by poking their wounding then swoops in to be their hero. Many have turned to me in their recovery from this abuse. I’m so grateful I’m out and can see their manipulation for what it really is now. It also terrified me to think others perceived me as an influencer. That was and never will be my agenda. Interesting though that it threatened her when I was trying to show compassion.
I know the mothers of 2/3 children from Keith but am unaware of the third. Did he have a second one with Mariana or is there a third mother?
Quick question. The lady who left DOS before getting branded who said she could either stay in and be blackmailed for the rest of her life, leave DOS knowing that her collateral would be released or commit suicide. Forgive me that her name escapes me. What her collateral released?
Her name was Vero. I haven’t heard or read anything about anyone’s collateral being released. Thank Goddess!
He enjoyed having women wealthier than him, smarter than him, better than him at his beck and call doing everything for him and on top of that, he can pleasure himself with them when he wants and have control over women who otherwise would thrive without him. He is sick.
This was the first time I really felt sympathy for Lauren and Nancy. I know you mentioned that Nancy at times was performing and I do agree with you (like the sex toy part while funny was very performative) but the moment at the end where she is sitting in bed talking about how Keith clearly fucked with her family, I found that truly heartbreaking and probably the most honest I think Nancy was since episode 2. I can only hope that Lauren gets to realize her dream of being a mom and again totally agree that thank god she never had his kid.
Also knowing how much work and devotion and dedication she put in only for him to tell her that he was gonna have a kid with someone else who wasn’t as hardworking and just more of the body type he desired (which I think it’s weird that he was advising her on her weight for a child when having a healthy bmi is the ideal for having a kid) I don’t blame her for that breakdown.
And again I said this in a previous video of yours but I still am trying to figure out the rationale of how a group blow job will empower women (not to judge the women who were made to believe that but because blow jobs when you think about it is a very subservient sexual position) and also i already disliked agnifilo but that interview on the balcony really grind my gears because nowhere does he discuss how Keith could have help with Lauren and that relationship because that narrative of these relationships were on Keith’s terms but yet no one else got to have their own terms and conditions for themselves.
Also it’s still pretty fucked up that Michelle and nicki gloss over the fact that people were told it was tattoo and not in fact a brand, and that the brand was not a symbol that represented elements but was his initials. They made it sound like how the cast of lord of the rings got tattoos together because of the crazy journey they were on filming that movie. But again, you can’t rationalize with people who aren’t willing to listen.
@@MeganSin Nicki is so conditioned and far gone it’s actually infuriating.
@@MeganSin I found it offensive too they way both of them tried to down play the initials of the brand. I actually commented on their channel asking why they used such a brutal way to brand and why was it placed it where they did?
No answer as of yet.
I was shocked at the blunt confession on the tapes about the brand. And Keith saying he could change the Presidential Election with his harem of bulemic women - what an Ego. He is loathesome.
Hey Mark! I know I’m late but I wanna thank you for everything you’ve done to expose this horrific abuse and get justice for yourself and all other victims.
However I wanted to let you know that the word “midget” is a slur against little people, or people with dwarfism. I totally get that you used the word in anger and KR deserves all the worst words but please don’t use this word again because it propagates harm outside of KR.
Also, as a bilingual person myself, there’s no shame in pronouncing words a little differently. Your english is fantastic, you’re very well spoken, cohesive, and engaging. Don’t pay any mind to the haters of the world
Off-topic: here are some words you could use instead of "sad":
1) Regrettable
2) Woeful
3) Sick at heart
4) Grievous
5) Inconsolable (maybe too extreme)
6) Deplorable
7) Lamentable
You know I’ve got Bonnie’s very first release CD from like 1819 years ago and I was listening to her voice and she smokes how does she keep her voice so beautiful it’s just like a natural gift that she must work out it’s so hard I didn’t realize she wrote that song until you mentioned it but I love I knew it was her singing at the beginning that’s a beautiful song and it is profound and with very simplistic melodic but her voice her cadence is perfect her pitch is perfect pitchAnd the dBrief’s are so good yeah thank you for putting them up by enjoy your channel very much
This one just did me in. The depth of harm done. If you want kids, the idea that you may have lost out on it because of wasting your reproductive years on someone who just didn't care is just so incredibly sad. The depth of manipulation I just don't have the words.
I agree. Although Sarah said that Lauren might be able to have a child by other means, can you see any adoption organization thinking she’d be a fit parent after this?
Guess if she has money there’s surrogacy, but I’m sure the lawyers didn’t come cheap.
Renerie was too good to be true. One lesson I have learned the hard hard way is, if someone/something is too good to be true, then it’s probably too good to be true.
Hey Mark, out of curiosity what’s up with Claire’s sister Sara? There’s not been much discussion about her from what I could see (I coulda missed something somewhere of course!) stay safe and thanks for all your hard work!
I'm not Mark obviously but she was never a part of the upper ranks. The money her and Clare made it seem that way but she wasn't charged with anything. I am curious what her beliefs are now.
There is a growing theory that cult leaders create an environment that will secure people around them, ensuring them from never being abandoned. This checks out for KR.
Bonnie’s voice is absolutely beautiful.
Mark I am so sorry that you have suffered so much at this man's hands. I think that he is a true sociopath (I have heard that narcissist's actually feel remorse, but sociopaths dont) You are the opposite of Raniere.
Funny how a psychopath took Buddhist principles intended to alleviate suffering (by reducing "attachment") & warped it to resemble his inner psychopathic world (because he lacked the ability to attach to other humans through love, empathy, etc. His limitations as a human being became his blueprint for other people, to limit and break their rapport with each other. Sick!
I’m curious as to what you think would have been brought up in court if Nancy had gone to trial.
I was thinking when remarries or keys were in the area whatever the hell his name is when meathead The lawyer cross examined the witnesses for the prosecution how was he with them and what types of questions did they ask it’s got to be in the transcripts but I’m Canadian
45:00-45:01 I was thinking those same words.
Thank you Mark for your behind the scene look into what the people that actually experienced esp feel watching the Vow. My heart broke for Lauren watching this episode, it is just unfathomable that someone could use and abuse people the way KR did to all these people, but Lauren's story is just unimaginable and truly heartbreaking. What struck me in watching this episode is Nancy, although I do understand that she to is a victim it is just extremely hard for me to understand how a mother could continue to run a company that is destroying her daughter in front of her eyes. I believe, as you said, that she wasn't aware of keith and Lauren's relationship until years after they had been together but she herself admits that she knew about it when it was starting to go bad. I think KR knew that Nancy could be controlled by her greed and need for power and he used that against her the way that he used sex, love and promises of a baby against Lauren, it just erks me that someone could allow such base needs like greed and power to lead you to destroy your own children weather by your actions or inaction to protect them. In my opinion KR & Nancy deserved each other and I have a hard time finding sympathy for her but I guess that might just be my own bias, I'm interested to know what your feelings are towards Nancy now that you have all of the information and in through the lense of hindsight. Thanks again Mark, wishing you Bonnie all the best and once again sending prayers and healing vibes to all the victims of NXIVM.... even nancy lol.
The only references to the cult of J Z Knight are on Wikipedia and your IMDB pages. How did you get out of that cult? Did you? Did you realize that J Z Knight and Keith Raniere are the same creatures?
@@TunaPlusMayo I can see if there was some sort of NDA over the movie income, but they are flying the Ramtha flag visibly in this show.
Mark Vicente, hoping you read these messages, I'm sure you've done a ton of reading and research for your book and to increase your knowledge :however I'd like to suggest works by Karen Hornsey, MD, one of the great German psychoanalysts of the 1930's. Particularly "The Neurotic Personality of our Time" written in 1937. Her amazing insight and work stands today. You will recognise Keith (and others) in the pages of this groundbreaking work, still in print, available on Amazon. Best regards x
Thanks for the tip, Karen!
Amazing documentary.. I find it very hard to comprehend how you can kiss in the mouth and dedicate so much time to an organization Linke this. I did The Landmark forum and they tried the invite me for more levels but this meant leaving my kids unattended for & days etc.. I just could not combine the level of commitment cost etc.. with my main responsibility in life that was my family and work. I never commit to more .. so I do find it really hard to understand how involved people where and woman where to the point of doing everything that Keith desired. It’s an extremely physiological process to comprehend S AN OUTSIDER! I saw it all thinking on my daughter and her vulnerabilities
I’m not sure if this has been mentioned in the comments but a side effect of such a low weight is often lack of menstruation. He was fucking with their fertility so there would be no unplanned pregnancies while he lorded his potential fatherhood over them.
Will this series go into the MENS GROUP?
I am glad to hear your thoughts on Nancy's sincerity, I was buying it but my BS meter was going off when she started sobbing, I think she was a victim to a certain extent, but she knew what was going on and what she was doing and still continued. I have no sympathy for her. She offered her daughter at the alter in my opinion.
It’s as if she knew all along, but only now sees it was wrong. I’m still trying to figure out how that’s possible.
You said KR had 3 kids, so who's the 3rd? There's the one he had with KK and the one with M, but the 3rd hasn't been in the press. Can you say?
Hello everyone, I am going to start by saying how much sorrow I feel for any person that suffered such torcher at the hands of Keith(evil incarnate) and I send light love and prayers for all involved. I started watching NXIVM when you were trying to get India out of the group. I know I don't know everything that went on inside this group and I never will. Whenever I think there couldn't be any sicker level of evil incarnate (Keith) he proves me wrong. The problem I am having as an outsider is with Nancy Sulzman. Do I believe evil incarnate used and abused her in many ways, YES. But I don't feel as sorry for her as I do so many others. What she said at the beginning of season 2 of the Vow hit me hard. She had to plead guilty and take the plea bargain or she was going to go to prison and she had to make sure that her daughter did as well. This tells me that Nancy belongs in prison right alongside Evil Incarnate. She helped him start the program and then thought him many of the things she knew because of her background and education that he in turn used on everyone he meet. I don't think he could have done so much damage without Nancy's help. The state and her lawyers know what she did and it was not as innocent as the show is making it out to be. Look at Ghislaine Maxwell sitting in prison for what I see Nancy has done for Keith(evil incarnate) starting with her own daughters.
That bastard Raneire stole her best years....I feel so damn sorry for Lauren. I really do. Lied to and lied to again and again. That SOB is right where he belongs.
❤the word I think you're looking for is forlorn. You've done a really good thing in bringing down this organization. Can't wait to read your book.
Something uve probably been told, but important enough to mention…
U still use a good amount of NXIVM language, ie “an upset”, not nearly as bad as others, but it’s part of the mind prison one has to break from. It’s just something to be mindful of, and I wholly appreciate the challenge it must be.
Thanks
If you watched Nancy in the past series one, and in these clips of her, watch when she is with Keith. She slides her hand across her face and covers her mouth/. Then her hand becomes a fist. She is scared of him. Keith was not the mastermind of this tech, this was Nancys tech. Nancy was the trained one. Keith just found a niche to pull off his ‘Messiah’ trip. For Keith to have not only slept with Nancy and Lauren and tried to get with the other daughter shows his vileness. I hope the unfortunate inmates currently having to endure Keith in the Federal prison system are able to have access to some therapy.
Did Nancy sleep with Keith too? I wondered about that but didn’t hear it mentioned on the show.
@@tonyaa8738 I refuse to believe she didn’t at some point. I would guess she did have some kind of relationship with him early on… although it doesn’t seem like she had that kind of relationship within the last decade but who knows..
@@tonyaa8738 I don’t think that is what he wanted to use Nancy for. He needed someone to front his Company since he was prohibited from doing so after the Consumer Buyline lawsuit. He used her vulnerability around pride and the need to be needed.
@@tonyaa8738 Susan Dones claims that yes, Keith and Nancy slept together. Not very often in the later years, but he still slept with her from time to time. Susan was at Nancy's once and she could hear Nancy with a man in her bedroom and Susan said the only other person in the house at that time was Keith because his shoes were there or whatever. Also, I believe Lauren said so in her court testimony.
Yes 100% she had sex with Keith. Lauren said it on the stand too. You can see in the earlier videos she is all googoo eyes for him like a lovesick teenager. She was obviously in love with the man. What happened and how that relationship ended, we don’t know
Definitely a rough episode debrief help the understanding thanks mark! Curious have you look at dos women react towards the vow I got it on my feed a few times
the "Faust" plan reminds me of Charles Manson and his deputized women
As a human being I had to control my gag reflex every five minutes during this particular episode and I have seen all the episodes. I can’t imagine how horrible in retrospect it must be for the reality to the ex members. I hope all the women had there collateral return to them at least to begin a healing process, Question Mark::: We’re the men in special group required in any way to submit collateral…? BE FREE !
They didn’t have their collateral returned to them unfortunately.
That incredible song gives me goosebumps 💓💕💖
Did you KNOW about the SHUNNING of Daniele? I would like an answer.
Mr. Vicente I watched the vow last night I couldn’t sleep I talk into my phone that’s my why my words get mixed up at any rate I was really looking forward to your debriefing this episode and I’ll leave you some thoughts I’ve also been watching the side of Mark Elliot‘s channel and the dossier or project and I’ve been trying to find Sarah Edmonson‘s podcast but I can’t find it just to get a panoramic view of it and I took so many notes on It’s like layering this onion back slowly slowly string by string by string by string by string and eventually the core is just left open wide in your Aurora nerve a raw nerve I love your channel and you have a great voice for this type of narration
This episode is wtf?!?
Was soooo happy to see Sarah have a little baby though 🥺
Susan Dones was the one who started the term "the wolf pack". Not Toni Natalie. Thanks!
Thank You!
Cognitive dissonance, or the inability of people to come to terms with it, might be the ultimate downfall of humanity.
Hypnotism is a way to hyper-focus on a singular idea, excluding what’s been framed as incongruent to that idea. I definitely see the hypnotic effect of this and other cults.
I especially found it misleading, during these EM sessions, or what Scientologists call “audits”, people were asked to feel “opposite” emotions. Emotions don’t have opposites, but it gets you thinking, on an instinctual level, that everything has a singular dimension.
The PC term for what Keith is MANLET.
Mark, can you please tell me.. how are you not absolutely disgusted by what they are leaving out of the vow part 2? they didn't even mention brandon porter in the tourrette's episode. they didn't mention daniela's confinement in the lauren episode.. wtf dude? like nancy had never seen bondage gear before!? she's supposed to be a therapist!
Mark can’t sit and torture himself with every single situation that happened within the organization. He’s already taken on so much being a whistle blower. I’m sure he’s heard plenty of horror stories and is empathetic to them but Mark shouldn’t be emotionally responsible to comment on them all. Let’s give him a little more grace. He seems to be a very beautiful person.
Mr Vicente…( I am begging for a response from you like begging on my hands and knees because I’ve written to you several times I’ve tried to find Sarah Edmondson‘s podcast I don’t know why I can’t find it but there’s something about the way you break things down that really peel back the layers of the onion and get right to the bulb and when you get to the bulb you cry I wanted to write this metaphorical beautiful song about layers and onions and anyways I had a whole lyric for it that just came to mind and my mother said why don’t you just call it onions make you cry which I thought was kind of funny !! There is nothing funny about this do you know I actually felt like throwing up I didn’t throw up but but but but however however however I cannot even explain to you how in raged it makes the viewer which means HBO is doing their job if I hear Nikki Klein say one more time that what he did wasn’t criminal and that the charges were basically bogus I have to continue on another message because I talk into my phone I don’t write I don’t have access to my laptop right now I have to buy a new computer so I’m doing this from my iPhone and I find it very difficult to type I just wanted to give you my real name my Facebook is public so you know who you’re talking to I’m starting a UA-cam channel is starting actually I’m going to put it up today and I’m going to be talking about you just so you know all positive when you told me that not me it’s like you’re so good at doing this and you’re not mirroring anything you just sit and you talk and when you stated that Cults arrest your development become emotionally or developmentally arrested I’m 51 and the reason I’m starting a UA-cam channel if you could please read this message it would mean so much to me because like you’re a compassionate person but you must get tired of people asking you for things and questions and this and that and this and that I can’t even imagine I am legitimately in Beamsville Ontario Canada I was isolated like Daniella for two years but under different circumstances and I’ve got to share the story with you and Sarah Edmondson is Canadian social understand I need help I don’t call you Mark because I don’t know you but out of respect out of everything you and your wife have been through and the other thing your wife Bonnie!!!! And there are other things you said to like I’m going to go through it methodically and write it like I will type it out so it’s more engaging to read but what I wanted to share with you was I am p
Kieth Re’sphingyary that means pig and Ukrainian. When are you posting your episode five debrief in reference to that I can’t even think of a word I’ve even looked in the dictionary there are no words to describe what she went through it’s insidious it’s apparent it’s a vile it’s evil and she is like an angel nobody is perfect the only thing that I could compare this to in my life because in these stories are so many people stories in abusive relationships being abused by corruption and do you know Mr Vicente this is the absolute truth coming to you my name is Lasha Margaret LEYNA and my last name is spelt ROJENKO. I’m 51 years old my Facebook is public why I was in a wheelchair for one year and this is in relation to your story and Nexium or sorry NEXIVM I know it’s executive success program and then there is the French school what happened is Sarah Brothmen. ?????
Yeah, Raniere even wanted to bed Sarah eventually. Raniere must have been so jealous of Nippy being an athlete and thought, "I'll show him. I'll sleep with his wife and we'll keep it a secret from him. Wouldn't that be delicious?" The little man was always threatened by other people's talents and prowess.
And what I wanted to say about the surgery that was so heartbreaking is because I broke the femur I didn’t break my knee I went in to the surgery with two perfectly good knees and I could not bend my knee for almost 3 years because of the scar tissue because he literally put house size nails underneath my kneecap which stopped my knee from bending which anybody could see Even the physiotherapist and I said what did the doctor do nobody would say anything even the surgeons that corrected my life I could barely say anything I put them in such a terrible position do you know one of the orthopaedic surgeons actually validated and said to me it must be more difficult for you because now I have to go for a Lidacane And Cortizone shots in my knee and my back because I walked so strange for almost 3 1/2 years and then one year without walking and it was the most isolating lonely painful physically painful mentally painful isolating experience because when you live a high control environment the people that even worked with me my that I thought were friends stop calling because that’s what Cults do they just go on. And wasn’t allowed to have contact and then half the people that wanted my job well two of the girls that really wanted the job that I had got it and then ended up getting fired I would not sign the dotted line until I got a letter of recommendation from human resources that just didn’t tell me or tell the potential employer that I worked this from time to this time and these are my duties no no no no I wanted laudatory comments I’m a team player I take initiative the company use a strategy book that I made for the region that I worked in and they may tip cards throughout the company so I understand and when I used to try to explain to the women I worked with this as a cult don’t lose your personality because if you don’t have this and the other thing they make you do do you know that they made me fly from Nova Scotia to San Diego in the middle of my vacation because I was promoted and it wouldn’t look good to the training department if I left didn’t leave my vacation and I did and the thing that hurts so bad about the doctor is not only the continued physical pain I have I feel like I was absolutely violated I wasn’t sexually assaulted I wasn’t raped my leg was raped by a knife and the Doctor Who did it said Nothing and thanks to you and Bonnie ( your wife you’re blessed absolutely intelligent wife) and Catherine Oxenberg, in India Oxenberg and Sarah Edmondson and her husband Anthany and you said that friend of yours passed away Jim I remember watching him as in The VOW lots of volleyball shorts and I remember what he looks like and I think that’s the man that Anthony or “nippy” said that this person taught him more about compassion and love et cetera and you said that he was under Kieth re:nary medical supervision and died!!!!! This story you have to understand that when I was in that wheelchair for a year and then you have to understand I didn’t have money to heal myself through physio and son so I did it by myself and what was my saviour was my dog Sophie N and I don’t know for some reason I just I’m gonna sound like a crazy stalker if I keep doing this but I’m I when people defier say oh I’m not like this they usually are I am very stubborn I’m going to keep writing and writing and writing until something profound catches the attention of somebody because I am 51 still looking for my people however the way my life has gone around it’s me at the end of the day L I am very happy because I’ve come through all of these things and I wanna share with people how did I come through this trauma without therapy with ouch it was through singing it was I’m able to still dance I’m a terrible guitar player but I love it I am just so happy that all of you are safe and that India Oxenberg I can’t wait to watch her you know through social media or whatever watch her grow up beautiful beautiful woman and you know when you watch a show like that and it’s so intimate and this is something very new but something that you started with What the bleep do we know you are using what the fuck before emoticons came along
I was really struck by this whole ethical breach thing. I was under the impression that Keith was just waiting for an excuse to call an ethical beach on somebody just so he can control them and have them spend the rest of their lives doing anything he wanted them to do to try to make it up to him with them always falling just a little bit short so he can keep that control. Obviously the latter part is true, but I didn’t realize that he was just that fragile and petty that he really was pissed off at stuff like Lauren’s moment of celebration at a volleyball game. It didn’t matter that he was having sex with dozens of women. This piece of shit really believed he was disrespected and had been wronged. Interesting how according to him, the only way a woman can achieve real growth is by having sex with him. He flat out says this to Lauren that the only way for her to grow is to participate in the group blowjob. That is some disturbing shit.
I was really glad that Lauren’s sister didn’t have sex with Keith. He accused her of an ethical breach and she was just like @whi is this 40 year old guy? Screw him. But then she said that Nancy was pressuring her to repair the relationship. I’m sorry but that is seriously fucked up. Her own mother was throwing her under the bus and pressuring her to appease Keith.
So much about the episode and this podcast was just eye opening here. Thanks for this podcast Mark. I can’t imagine how difficult this must be to discuss a lot of these things
Mark IT is great listening to you! are you reading our comments? Can you give us a heart? 💜
Thank you MARK & BONNIE for SHARING EVERYTHING & being OPEN & HONEST. I CAN'T SUPPORT the group of WOMEN on UA-cam that are STILL FOLLOWING KEITH, that are REACTING TO THE VOW EPISODES. I believe these group of women are DANGEROUS & have SOLD OUT their own GENDER & HUMANITY. We love what you & BONNIE, we admire the BRAVERY OF YOUR GROUP. You could of just left, but you couldn't . You & your group decided to make people aware of the REAL TRUTH & how DANGEROUS KEITH really was & how DANGEROUS KEITH & his group of WOMEN still are. I THANK YOU for doing the VIDEOS for us to UNDERSTAND. WE SUPPORT YOU & BONNIE. I'm PRAYING for the RECOVERY of EVERYONE INVOLVED in this kind of MISTREATMENT of HUMANITY. 🤗💖
Didn’t one of the rich women have to seduce a colleague of the Dalai Lama?
I have some questions if you have time to answer them question one
1) in seduced Catherine Oxenberg said that Nikki idiotically posted a picture of herself and that’s how Mexican police located him and the women. And you’re right with Laura Salsman said and never crossed my mind that Keith would choose Keith and when you said those are powerful words they were but my point is because it is like a religion some of the things that you were talking about that you studied I didn’t even know what they were something about psychedelic psychology??? Lol not laughing at you I’m laughing at me because it wasn’t psychedelic that you said but that’s a breach so is that why she is wasting her life because she feels that she owes him something and he is so dangerous that he’ll use people from the outside he shouldn’t be allowed to have contact with anybody associated with ever with ESP. And I can’t believe the cognitive dissidents or the absolute delusions of the Dr Daniella and Michelle who was Rachel in the vow I figured out who she was but anyways that was one question
2) Sometimes I don’t know whether to get mad at those people or to feel bad for those people but everything that they were trained for and what ethics are about there doing the complete opposite but they don’t see it that way and at one point on the dossier project that they have I watch their debriefs after yours and I enjoyed your deep debrief is better than HBO but at any rate Michelle actually said that she felt that Nancy didn’t understand that she did anything wrong and I thought did we just watch the same documentary?
You know as an outside viewer I thought the idea he was teaching was a sort of movement for good, connection, and progress in the world and indeed does inspire. But once you realize he was sleeping with so many women I truly think it crosses that line and would make you question motives. I watched the dossier project and I do enjoy hearing both opinions but I don’t see how someone can say this man deserves a clear reputation and freedom.
I think that’s why he kept the ladies so thin. It’s can be extremely difficult to conceive at such low body weight. People with EDs and in sports where weight is strictly monitored often stop having menstruation. It seems like something he would craft IMO.
Exactly. He kept them thin to keep them weak and compliant, but it also had the added side effect of making it harder to get pregnant. And according to India, Nancy knew all about it.
I thought it's because he's a pedo and super thin women look more like girls than women? One of the victims said he couldn't get it up before she lost weight
@@roksana1736 I think it’s all part of it. Yes, I think he liked to keep them looking young. I also think there was an added “benefit” of not getting caught out as early since there weren’t a bunch of mini-KRs running around.
I've just tried to watch the DOS group reaction to Episode 4 and I could not get through it all, I've managed to watch the other ones as I felt it important to hear what they said. But honestly, the sad delusional quality of their responses is too much to bear. I hope they wake up, but while they are still apologists for abuse I cannot listen to them anymore.