Why is Beckett Marinor Better Than Michael Burnham?
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2020
- What are your thoughts?
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Funny how the one Trek show we all thought was going to be a complete joke upon its announcement ends up being the saving grace for the franchise
Because you can tell it's made by people who really love Star Trek, while still poking fun at its flaws.
Agreed
I honestly don’t care what the Fandom Menace says, Lower Decks is in my opinion actually the best NuTrek show as of right now, I sometimes consider it a replacement for Discovery.
I agree I've watched trek since the very first episode of TOS. With my Dad in the 60s and this has better writing than ether Discovery , or Picard .
the fandom menace would agree with that, but it isnt saying much. Discovery set the bar exceedingly low for everything except flashy special effects. The first episode had put me off, one ensign drunk cleaving the leg of another ensign in Star Trek, with the credits still coming in???? I like lower decks a lot better when I think of it as a comedy. When I started thinking of it as Family Guy in space I got a very good laugh out of it. I just worry there going in a wessley crusher direction with Beckett. I get it she's way more experienced than what her rank would suggest. Honestly the one thing i never cared for in real Star Trek were the swiss army knife characters (Data, Wessley, 7of9). I worry Beckett is on track to follow in the same vein.
@@nativeofjasumerosas6948 The only "Fandom Menace" anyone should care about is Star Warp'd, that short film that came out almost 20 years ago on DVD that spoofed Star Trek and Star Wars, with Captain Kwirk, Mr. Spuck, Darth Vapor, and Mini Maul, who all fight each other but eventually put aside their differences at the end to beat up Jar Jar Stinks and throw him over a cliff. And yes, this is a short film that actually exists. Even Nichelle Nichols saw it and talked about it one time: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Warp%27d
To my knowledge, the lot of them think that it is better than the previous 2
It’s Real trek
Mariner has an actual personality...an obnoxious personality but at least she keeps it real and does seemed like a real person be it an annoying one
What if Mariner evolves in season 2 into a great tactical officer?
@@christenorio9555 IF
And her rank belies her actual experience.
@@christenorio9555 considering how bitter she acted when her punching bag, I mean, best friend jumped at a promotion and transfer to the Titan, I doubt it
@Stripey Arse see for my side of that fence she'd be a perpetual second class. But then I was airwing not a boat chuck. The squadrons would not tolerate the disregard for procedure. She would have a stack of page 13s so big she'd need a binder.
Marinor comes off as a person you could actually know. The smart person who doesn’t want to be fancy corporate so hangs out in the break room and acts like all the other line workers? I can relate. She would of been amazing if we had Marinor in Michael’s place in Discovery.
As for Michael? Mark my words: She will pull an Andromeda, reform the Federation and do it mostly all by herself. What took Archer and an entire crew, and the work of other alien crews and lots of sacrifices...will take Michael 2-4 fancy speeches and one moment of intentful, silent staring.
As for the others? Saru will stand there and be weird, Tilly will stand there and by geeky Zoey Deschanel, and everyone else will be forgettable as Michael marches forward with a flag, restoring a Federation by herself.
This speaks volumes of how generally people perceive black women. You prefer to see the ratchet ones than believe there are actual heroic ones. You have problems
Well said
Because she is not preachy and is a screw up at times but when the situation calls for it she leads. Honestly Mariner is more human then Burnham, Burnham acts like star trek royalty, Mariner is the fun big sister you actually want to be around with.
Nicely said. Tbh Mike McMahan has treated characters much better than Disco. I definitely relate more to LD because characters aren't treated like heroes but actually working with one another to solve the problems. Disco folks relay too much on Burnham as if she has all the solutions. Nah I'm going back LD to the fullest.
It boils down to one thing: Beckett has a personality, while Michael really doesn't.
Notice how the fandom menace got really quiet about lower decks? I think it's because they all realized there argument was beginning to fall apart as the show went on.
A slice of humble pie. Fandom Menace got too consumed by their hate to give it a chance.
@@TheCastellan The fandom menace are shills. Jeremy from geeks and gamers is just a jock who found out he could exploit nerds for money.
Oh, Major Grin is cheering from the sidelines now.
the main reasons why: Writing Hubris and the arrogance of live action hollywood
You got me right in the English with that title my dude.
Final scene of Discovery: holofilter pulls back and reveals that Brunham is played by Admiral Insaneway KJ:" That's quite the interactive experience Tom, i'm sure people will love it. a tad violent, but i loved the protagonist, such an inspiring character" TP:" thanks kapt...i mean admiral" KJ: "how much of this is actually based on real events?" TP:"well, you know how it is, with the licences and historicity limiting your storytelling...so,not much, i just wanted to capture the spirit of the age, you know, wild wild west in space" KJ:"and the sporedrive?" TP:"wishfullfillment. and Quantum Slipstream is a trademak now. and transwarp still triggers me" KJ: "and the klingons, i mean, this is gonna lead to issues" TP: "yes, well, you know how the divorce is going, so, i accept full responsibility, but i think we can change the name, i mean nobody will recognize them......."
I doubt Janeway would ever car for Burnham.
@@jhmcd2 why not? she missed her dog adopted a topheavy borg drone. i would not venture to guess who she cares about
Thanks for the new and improved headcannon, I like it.
The difference is that, Burnham is the ideal modern female protagonist: perfect, well liked, fully respected regardless of what she does. The writers like to say she has flaws but she doesn't or they don't show, they say that she has challenges but the challenges are quickly removable if ever a real challenge and everyone loves her despite her flaws. She is basically the heroine of a romance novel. Beckett meanwhile is obsessive, purposely screws herself earning the ire of many of the crew, and only earns their respect by EARNING their respect, and regularly screws up. I also think she suffers from PTSD after one friend turned into a monster and ate the other one. She is a realistic protagonist that just happens to be female.
The problem with Burham's character is they took "evolved human" and then spun contemporary, real life political/social commentary into the character, and a good chunk of Disco Season 1.
Star Trek has always been an ensemble show even though there are "main characters", ie Kirk led TOS but the show wouldn't be what it is without Bones or Scotty always bailing Kirk out.
In Disco however you have Burham... who does everything... and then there's other folks who fill up the non-Burnham parts of the episode. Frankly Tilly is way more interesting and important of a character because she embodies that late teens/early 20s part of our lives where we're trying to find ourselves, figure out our place in the universe, and she's facing major adversity in the process!
There is no comparison. Lower decks was written by people who WATCHED Trek, that's the main prerequisite for writing Trek. Marinor is a broken commander who either watched people die under her command or was ordered to allow the same and it changed her to try and lead from the bottom. STD burns my eyes and is not Trek. Lower Decks is actually Trek, the one problem is it needs to be longer and it's animated FFS give us 30 eps a Season.
Who wants to bet that the prime directive, which has, by TNG, become elitist dogma, was the main culprit.....sorta like Homeward?
Gene Roddenberry's grand son, I think it's his grandson, is involved with the series.
I'm no fan of Discovery, but it's still Trek. All Star Trek is real Star Trek.
I'm forced to agree. Michael Burnham was the victim of poor writing. She did fail epically on Episode 1 and 2, but never really had a strong redemption arc after that. Marinor is just so much more fallable than Burnham, which makes her a better character.
I like Burnham anyway, and the Discovery series as well - despite their flaws.
I have a feeling that in a way Mariner somewhow also adresses a lot of criticism, people had about Burnham. There's many instances, where Mariner is annoying and against the rules and gets what she deserves for it...
Your comment has aged well... the moment her superiors decide to not take her bullshit any more and she has opportunity to work through her shit, she becomes a better officer for it and it feels like she's earned her place, not like Burnham who mary-sued her way towards it.
If Burnham was written like Mariner, yes she still started the Klingon War. But she would not have been the centre of attention for every single episode and unrelated event thereafter. We would've known the names of the bridge crew in the first few episodes and had some time focused on them instead of nothing until a quick roll call at the start of Season 2 and that's it. Other characters would've had their own screentime and we would've seen things through more than just Burnham's eyes. Example, Harry Mudd was a Lorca and Tyler foe, they met in Klingon prison, and Stamets was the one to figure out the time loop but the whole but the whole episode was centred around Burnham who never met him until that moment and had little focus on anyone else.
If Mariner was written like Burnham, yes her mum is the captain and she's trying to fly under the radar, but Captain Mum would be played to death. Rutherford and Tendi would be relegated to minor characters and have no screentime, Mariner would always be right and would always have the solution to every problem that they faced (she would've fixed Boimler's transporter accident in 5 minutes, she would've fended off the Pakled attack single-handedly and been the one to create and install the virus intead of Rutherford and Shax, etc.), and the script would be full of woke tropes instead of actual progressive character substance.
I think Discovery is better than some people give it credit for, but Lower Decks blows it out of the water. In 10 episodes we've gotten more character development than 2 whole seasons of Discovery.
Michael needs to be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine. Whenever Michael is not on screen, all the other characters should be asking "Where's Michael"?
They pratically do, its sad. You get a conversation about klingon politics in season 2 and who comes up? Michael Burnham of course.
I see what you did, there.
Lower Decks > (ST: Discovery & ST: Picard).
Ensemble Show > Discovery where show revolves around Michael Burnham.
michael burnham: is written to perfection for political correction sake
marinor: is a burnt out wesley crusher who was born into starfeet and was treated as a starfleet officer since the age of 8 as said in ep.9 and has found her safe space in the lower decks
Wesley Crusher was burnt out in Next Generation at the end too.
@@schwarzerritter5724 and he ran away with the traveler. starfleet seems to chew people up and spit them out
@@zealotmaster1 😄 It does seem that way, doesn't it?
LOL i like the Michael burham ...Michael is the best of humanity the best of vulcan. She reminds me of SPOCK. Spock is her male counter part. Do you see people commenting about how TOO SMART spock was.... no. Scottie fixing the warp engines with a pair of ear rings. Whenever its a female lead people got issues especially an African American female. That character is too smart to be real...what ever. Racism/sexism is so natural in the USA you dont even realize when it happens, its literally subconscious you don't even have to think about it.
@@My2CentsYall Doesn't matter what the skin color is, a poorly written character is a poorly written character.
I totally agree and another point Lower Decks developed Mariner better with less than one fourth the screen time! Discovery has had two seasons of 13 hour episodes vs Lower Decks ten 21 minute episodes. In fact LD has developed ALL their characters better than Discovery. Case in point in the season finale when Shax was charging to the Pakleds ship with Rutherford. I said aloud to myself that this must be the greatest day of his life just seconds before he screamed ‘This is the greatest day of my life!’ The point is I knew the characters well enough to anticipate their reactions. With Discovery you do not know. The bridge crew is so underdeveloped I don’t know their names. Even the characters who get then most screen time Michael, Saru etc are so poorly developed basically changing their traits to suit what that episodes plot needs them to be. I have no understanding of them. I honestly don’t care if Michael lives or dies. Lower Decks has its problems but their characters are spot on.
Burhnam has incredible mental abilities. She was raised by a monk like race. She was chosen by destiny to save the galaxy. SHE’S A BLOODY WANNA BE STAR WARS CHARACTER!! Kurtzman and his crew wish they were working on a Star Wars show!
Yeah, him and Abrams. Well, except Abrams got to make Star Wars after that.
@@AWriterWandering and look how good that went..............
Abrams openly admits he doesn’t like Trek and just wants to work on Star Wars but all of those Bad Robot guys feel the exact same way!
My problem from the start is that DISCO doesn't "fit" within established canon, based on tone and aesthetics. Having the show take place post-NEM would have, IMO, neutralized much of the criticism of the show. As for Michael Burnham in particular: I don't have a problem with the way the character is written, but I do have a problem with the way the plot revolves around HER, which results in bad writing of the show itself. As a result, the plot comes off as contrived. Had I been the show-runner, I would have set the show firmly in the post-NEM timeline: The year is 2394 CE, 15 years after the events of Shinzon's coup of the Romulan Star Empire, and 7 years after its "destruction". The scene opens up with Commander Michael Burnham boarding a new ship, the USS Discovery, which purports to be testing a new FTL drive (the "Spore Drive"), in response to the possible disruption of subspace caused by the overuse of standard warp drive technology. Burnham is a veteran of a brief war between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, who sought to take advantage of the Romulan Star Empire's demise. In fact, you would see brief flashbacks of this war, as the series progresses (i.e. her wartime experience giving her insights on how to solve a problem in present time). Her mentor is Captain Georgiou, who appears in these flashbacks, but had died during the war. I don't want to rehash the Vulcans, so Burnham was raised by an Andorian couple, one of which is an Ambassador to Earth, and had originally been godparents to Burnham. In this case, I want to build on the lore of the Andorians, who, unlike the Vulcans, embrace their warrior spirit, which, in turn, influenced Burnham's upbringing. Burnham's foster father would be played by the actor Jeffrey Combs, who would play the descendant of Shran (from ENT). At any rate, the show would be about exploring the post-Federation-Klingon War environment, in the vein of the episodic TOS. You would still have tensions with the Klingons, which reflects upon real-world events (i.e. tension between the US and the Russians), even as new threats and issues arises (like the synth ban, for instance).
Sounds interesting.
This would be good and if Picard were written as a sister series to play alongside those events. Play off each other even and create an actual cinematic universe. You could still fit Lower Decks in there in a way.
And with that, the story/tone matches the universe-at-the-time, the characters are interesting & worth-exploring, and the plot touches on relevant political points while not being too preachy.
Brilliantly done!
Mariner, while being that friend that is always somehow getting away with breaking the rules, is still someone that you might want to be friends with. From what I have seen of Burnham (I have only seen one episode of Discovery), she seems like the complete jerk who gets away with using and abusing anyone and anything and somehow falling into everything working out for the best.
You may still not like burnham, but if we based picard or Data on just one episode thats a joke - because they pretty different by the end of season 7
@@SC-mq1eh Hence why I prefaced it with "From what I have seen."
@@lonnyyoung4285
lol - well not to shill, but it's free on broadcast - I doubt it'll change your mind but you have a chance to inform your opinion
@@SC-mq1eh I have All Access so I can watch Trek (at least the episodes that I haven't skipped). It's just not for me, but I don't hold it against anyone who enjoys it.
Another chief takeaway is Marinor asks her crew for ideas and solutions. Burnham, the crew asks her.
What if adult jake sisko had joined starfleet academy after his father ascension and graduating to be finding out of the stress of the job of his father?
Jake had no desire to ever join starfleet. Even with his father’s supposed demise fighting dukat, he has no real reason to go. He can do more good as a whole by not being in starfleet.
@@oathkeeper65 I mean for the jjverse reboot of ds9
So I hesitated to watch star trek lower decks and star trek Picard, as well as discovery because a lot of the fanbase hated on the shows when they came out. I watched them all recently and now I'm convinced the Star Trek Fandom, at least the people I've seen, just don't know what they want and have obviously very different tastes than I do.
You leave Sisko out of this.
Or else, prepare for His Almighty Pimp Hand...
@@Corbomite_Meatballs The Sisko is not to have his name taken in vain. He is of Bajor.
Beckett is clearly Burnam but competently written down to being "Starfleet royalty"
When I first heard the idea of a Star Trek show that didn’t focus on the Cpt, I was imagining something closer to LD
Side note.
Mikey totally didn’t start the war, the poop emojis wanted a war and were dead set on starting one lol
Why do people think writing a good female character means “make her flawless and liked by everyone with little to no conflict “ or “toxic femininity”
Honestly, one of things that bothers me most about Burnham is that she was not only allowed back into the fleet but that she was given another officer commission. She assaulted her captain and attempted mutiny. That's just not something someone should be able to come back from. She should be living on a penal colony somewhere.
To be fair Worf literally abandoned his mission to recover a Cardassian defector. Which had the result of extending the war and causes millions more to die all to save his love interest and all he got was a slap on the wrist and told he might never make captain.
@@gothpunkboy89 Yep. Should have at least demoted him. That's one thing about DS9 that bothered me. Neither Worf nor Sisko were punished for that. No commander with half a brain would send a husband and wife on a solo mission where either one of them would be expected to leave the other for the sake of an enemy defector. Worf despite his "Klingon honor" abandoned the mission for Dax. I doubt Dax would have done the same, though. In any case, Sisko is just as responsible for that failure as Worf but nothing comes of it.
I think the problem with Burnham is they wrote her as having a(n adopted) relationship with Spock and raised/educated on Vulcan. Her storyline is convoluted as to how she was orphaned, adopted by Sarek and Amanda, raised on Vulcan, rose up to First Officer and then fell from grace having to climb up the ladder again from a very deep rock bottom.
Mariner on the other hand is someone who is more “normal”. Someone who didn’t live up to her mother’s (or father’s) expectations, someone who gets the job done (despite going her own direction and/or being on the clumsy side when the push isn’t coming to shove), but does poorly when it comes to office politics. She sees her superior officers as concerned with self-promotion having little concern over those under their command, meanwhile she sees people like Boimler Fletcher and O’Conner finding some gimmick to get noticed, etc. and wants little to do with it.
Beckett was writen to be in star trek, was written to both explore and minorly critque star trek and to expand and improve upon it, she was also written for the story.
Michele was writen for the 20th century, for ideas from that century, and to be a stinger against some of those ideas, she was written to be superior to ideals outside of Star Trek and to propaganda at and preach down to the audience. She was not written for Star Fleet, she was written for a entirely unrelated era and the Star Fleet around her warped from what it should have been to match the universe she was written for.
Beckett fits her universe, but doesn't quite fit her society.
Michele doesn't fit her universe, and her society was bent to fit her.
And the fact the universe has to bend to the character is where the bad writing comes to play. There's plenty of characters who don't fit their universe yet have amazing stories about it. Saitama from One Punch Man is so overpowered that he wins with a single half hearted punch every time, but the series makes fun of that overpoweredness, gives focus to the other characters and shows just how awkward and out of place Saitama is and how hard he has it fitting in or getting any recognition because how overpowered he is. The Doctor for the longest time is the only timelord, and even is unique among time lords, and he's lonely he has a nevee ending universe to explore and no one to share it with and for all his abilities for him to remain a good man the Doctor has to restrain himself so much or else everything he's chosen to value becomes meaningless, and is destroyed.
@Stripey Arse yeah that was also a good aspect but more it's to show how he is for his universe one of the sole most powerful beings, and while he's the one leading the adventure he's not the solution to every problem, nor is he using that power non stop , instead he's a facilator allowing others to achieve what was great about them, allowing warriors to fight for a greater cause, allowing doctors to heal, etc.
I wish I could watch Lower Decks here in the UK as it looks like a show I can actually enjoy :-)
What tells me all I need to know about these two characters (and crews) is that I got a little emotional at the end of Lower Decks, and have only by left bored by the ends of the seasons of Discovery. Fingers crossed for season 3.
i want to see Marinor in the next Picard season as Captain, but animated on a view screen
Maybe she, Boimler, Rutherford, and Tendi all end up as Captains on their own individual ships, or just one ship where either Mariner and Boimler are the Captain and the other is the First Officer or Security Chief, Rutherford is the Chief Engineer and Tendi is the Chief Medical Officer.
I love the character of Mariner, but the point that she became a relatable character with me is when Ransom stabbed her in the foot and, correctly, called her out for her ego. I was actually surprised that he stabbed her, though others would see this a mile a way I'm sure. Her continued arc, along with Boimler, is something to see grow as they become officers befitting Starfleet. I still say that Boimler will somehow get demoted and sent back to the Cerritos.
For some reason I can see Riker going on about jazz, and Boimler is like, it’s okay, but not all that. Cue angry Riker stare, and the next scene has Boimler back on the Cerritos lol.
That's a great idea, the interaction with Ransom on the crystal planet is definitely the point where I stopped finding Mariner simply irritating and began to notice what was fun about her.
I would actually argue that Mariner and Burnham share one flaw, their overconfidence and in both cases well earned, I woul'd say. The problem is, as you say, how they are written and portrayed. I feel as in Burnham's case, this overconfidence is portrayed as a virtue, not a flaw or simply a character trait one could live with, whereas Marriner is shown to actually accept her overconfidence as a flaw, but is simply willing to live with it. That is what make's Burnham the worse character. She act's and think's as if she were perfect. Mariner, meanwhile, accept's her flaws as they are. She can accept, she can be wrong, even overlook an injury inflicted by superior officer over it (and the fact she want's to go nasty with him). Or what about actually showing internal progress? She took took something from actions of her double, which, as we know, is perfect copy of herself. Burnham, meanwhile, does what? Conatct's Spock to get insight and, instead of briefing her captain first, so that the captian can derive appropriate action, she begin's preparations for combat. That just scream's "I'm more than the captain!". Ultimately, while I wouldn't make her responsible for starting a war with the Klingons, that was kind of inevedable at that point, I would say that her decisions ultimately lead to her captain's death and what is the worst of it? She didn't exactly show any signs of learning from it. She's shown no significant development over two seasons, meanwhile Marriner has managed to establish herself as a character and grow not insignificant bit over one.
Since you brought DS9 in to the mix, let's have a look at our black friends. Because there is a telling in how characters are written these days. Burnham is shown cold over thousands of deaths she supposedly blame's herself, most importantly her captain. Absolutely no struggle at all. Just pure logic and "I was right to do it, end of discussion.". Meanwhile, Sisko has a literal meltdown over deaths of one Romulan senator and one criminal. He seriously struggled with his concience over the fact he orderd a hit on someone, who wasn't even an ally, not to mention he didn't know the full details of the plan! And that is after at very least a couple of his academy friends died! He literarly went to Garak and wanted to beat him in to a cube over this. Burnham? Coldness she show's over her actions put's liquid nitrogen to shame. I don't care what you're taught, if you show yourself colder than an android, there is something wrong here. If I were to look at both together as a bit of a simpleton, I would have to come to an understanding that Star Trek embraces "When you kill one, it's a tragedy. When you kill a million, it's a statostoc.", which is damn near antithesis of what Star Trek, at least in the era of TNG, DS9 and Voyager stood for.
Episodes 9 and 10 of Lower Decks season 1 definitely launched Mariner into the top of my list of best Starfleet characters.
The one thing I’ve noticed, is Lower Decks as goofy as it can be, is much more focused than Discovery. Discovery sort of shotguns story points spreading them out all over. Funny enough it’s the other characters that are more interesting.
Mariner is overtly flawed and funny. The therapy episode of Lower Decks made me laugh out loud.
This is why I support this channel. Excellent breakdown. 10/10
This leads right into my biggest issue with discovery. Pretty much everything we see on the show is shown in relation to Michael a Burnham. The rest of the crew get almost no arcs that don’t feature burnham. Maybe both Stammets and Seru are tenors in the Discovery choir. But we will never know because it’s all got to be about Michael
Mariner grew on me as the series went on. I found her to be loud obnoxious at first but as they expanded and developed her character she grew on me. I still view lower decks as Trek themed futurama, but it is a good show.
Well, being a character in a fun show also helps.
My biggest problem with Disco is like a shitload of people have hair that is totally not regulation. Like her hair in season 3 I mean come on that's like a for sure way to get your hair caught in the shuttlecraft door, 0/10 will Court Marshal again
Still, same question with the naming convention of these new characters...why? Both of them have unusual names for females. In fact Marinor has 2 last names which technically is not uncommon in certain communities but in the future it still is weird. I'll roll with it. It's like if a dude is named Jefferson Jackson
You’ve put into words the way I’ve felt about Burnham. So far the best way I’ve been able to describe her in relation to the universe that Discovery portrays is that she is the lynchpin to it and everyone else is just a tertiary or quaternary character. There are no secondary characters, in my opinion.
That said, I do think there was improvement from season one to two and I am interested to see what season three has to offer.
What you think about lower decks... The Fandom is divided on it... I like it
Pakleds as the big bad of the season was such a winning choice
The only thing that ruined that season finale a bit is apparently Marinor knows Riker as well as anyone else important. By season 2, the question would be who ISN'T she a drinking buddy with?
Also...They're Pakleds
@@Excalibur01 It was kinda jarring at first. But when I thought about it, it made sense. Mariner is Daughter of an admiral, I also heard a theory that Freeman served under Riker on the Enterprise. And honestly Mariner and Riker seem like they would go to drink some Romulan booze together after some Grey Ops operation.
@@argo9750 The fleet is large. The odds are too much of a coincidence
@@Excalibur01 That maybe true, but look at other series. For example TNG season 1 conspiracy: Picard knew or at least heard about every captain there. Janeway in Voyager also knew captain Ransom. Michael Burnam in Discovery is Spock's fricking sister. And there cannot be thousand admirals in the fleet.
Mariner is basically starfleet royalty. Will being 1st officer on a flagship would certainly at least meet her.
I could say alot but i'll boil it down to this. I went into Disco excited for new trek and over 2 seasons was very disappointed ending on disliking it. I went into Lower Decks not liking how they always yelled in the first episode, only to really enjoy the series and was left wanting more. That said I went into Picard giving it more of a chance then I would other shows. Admittedly because it was Patrick Stewart/Jean Luc Picard. I found stuff I liked and some stuff I did not and was left really hoping it gets better (for now I still liked it). 2 outta 3 is not to bad compared to the 2 outta 6 of Star Wars and Star Trek is well known for the first seasons not always being the best so i'm not to hurt over it.
Stumbled onto this and you referenced my friend Jessie Gender, so I had to watch. Lower Decks is my fave, and I really like Mariner.
You are spot on. I actually really like Lower Decks and all the characters. I am still having a hard time processing so much comedy in each episode as being "Star Trek" but given that I liked it so much and I have only seen 4 of the episodes so far. I think I can get past it.
And for the record, I LOATHE STD and Picard. There is nothing redeemable in those shows except for the moments that Frakes and Sirtis are on screen in Picard.
And when I say loathe those other two shows, I mean I will not watch STD season 3 or Picard Season 2. PERIOD. I WILL watch Lower Decks season 2.
Well said, I mean we know a lot about not only the lower decks but also some of the bridge crew.
However in season 3 I can some up the bridge crew in discovery in one small sentence as we know nothing.
*Burnham was the first bite at the apple* . _Mariner was the second and the writers learned from the mistakes_ . But then I like both characters because in the classroom I am both of them to an extent. To me it is personal.
If Mariner is the second try, then at least they are seeing where their initial character development went wrong. Still needs work, but it's progress nonetheless.
In Rent Anthony Rapp's music was written for him specifically. The character of Mariner was written for the voice actress. Sonequia Martin Green accepted the human raised on vulcan role of Michael Burnham.
Okay?
Lower Decks is legally not yet available in my country afaik (Germany). :-(
Could only hear a dull ringing sound after "Hot as hell person of color, finding themselves at the top of their game."
Lore: is there anyone who does not respect the great Michael Burnham?
Wesley crusher: she’s not so great...
"Oh, shut... actually, keep talking, Wesley."
If you look at Gene Roddenberry middle name, you can see that a Mary Sue Character IS part of Roddenberry's vision regardless of all the New Trek vs Legacy Trek debate
Amen! I'm looking at you Spock, data, and 7of9
@@SC-mq1eh I think you need to look up the meaning of Mary Sue: "(originally in fan fiction) a type of female character who is depicted as unrealistically lacking in flaws or weaknesses." Each character you just mentioned had weaknesses and flaws.
@@ThePoshboy1
And so does Mariner and Burnham
@@SC-mq1eh Then WTF were you talking about? You were just saying that a bunch of characters in Star Trek are Mary Sues and when I point out that you're wrong and now you're telling me that other characters in Star Trek weren't Mary Sues (which isn't a response to justify your statement).
Are you an idiot or something?
@@ThePoshboy1 Oh you can definitely bet latinum on that!
Agree! Great analysis.
Perfect analysis 100% agree with your take Lore. I don't always agree with your takes, and thats actually a good thing. But on this, You nailed it!
After watching: VERY NICE! Agree so much! I kinda think you may get quite a bit of grief for this though! Oh and I am done poking you about the connection between Mariner and someone! So rest well from my tweets on that!
Why can't I give this video more thumbs up?
All of us are a little Mariner in some way. None of us are a little Burnham though. Shes just totally unrelatable. Its as you say, shes a literal angel. Heck, its in her NAME.
I think you're right about pretty much everything here. Maybe if there was a reverse-Boimler on Discovery it would Michael would work better as is.
I soo agree!
Your opinion personally I like both!
I agree and hope that her character is written a bit more realistically in Season 3! 🖖👍
Nailed it
I dont know, thats a pretty low bar to start off from. Its like suggesting Carrot Top is funnier than an actual carrot.
To be fair, actual carrots can be funny when photoshopped inappropriately into otherwise wholesome pictures.
Michael Burnham is a warmonger who ignored Starfleet protocol and basic common sense in order to ignite a terrible, unnecessary and ultimately wasteful war against the Klingon Empire simply because she couldn't be bothered to think for herself and come up with a good idea for dealing with the situation in an original manner that could have avoided all-out conflict in favor of a solution that would have satisfied Klingon honor and dealt with their cultural concerns.
Instead, she went crying home to Daddy(a solution that never would have occurred to her adapted brothers)and borrowed their own method of dealing with the Klingons,despite Sarek's admonition that the Vulcan solution may not have the same effect in this particular case, betrayed her captain and the ideas and ideals Burnham was sworn to uphold and led the Federation into a devastating war with consequences that would resonate for decades to come, and only after the first Klingon joined Starfleet.
Mariner,on the other hand, is a born leader who thinks for herself and always listens to(and inspires)those who surround her,even when they're fundamentally different from her. Like Burnham, she stubbornly clings to her sense of self,but it is a sense fundamentally rooted in her individuality,independent of her parents who are also Starfleet officers,but clearly she doesn't go running to them with her problems, personal or professional,and although she firmly believes that she is in the right,like Burnham frequently does, she knows that she is not always in the right, but always seeks to do the right thing and does her small part to leave whatever corner of the universe she finds herself in a little bit better than when she arrived--something else that differentiates Mariner from Burnham.
Perhaps if Michael Burnham did more to help others like Beckett Mariner does, she would not have been a warmonger.
I completely agree.
Yes! Absolutely! Michael has the problem of being written badly, not of being a bad idea. I have high hopes for Disco season 3 because 2 was better than 1 but if the writing hasn’t improved, neither will Michael.
Hey, TNG had two very uneven first seasons before it found its footing in Season 3, so... there's always a chance.
BioGoji 1989 Agreed. I’m hoping for a repeat of that.
It is too bad that we didn't have LD before because the other Kurtzman's shows completely burned out any good will left of most fans. LD succeeded in making us steadily starting to care about the characters of the show even Mariner who despite her often obnoxious antics with some mary-suish traits still comes up as a real person who really cares about her friends and even Star Fleet.
Im glad that this video is back online. Its very close to censorship if you aren't accepting the CBS philosophy.
I did like Michael Burnham, but felt I could not relate to her in most respects after her initial failure.
The problem is entirely in the writing, but that was also the case with TNG. It also took until TNG's third season for that show to get really, really good. I hope something similar happens with Discovery wherein years from now, we can look back at Discovery Season 1 and 2 with the same general scorn we do of TNG season 1 and 2.
C'mon guys. Discovery isn't irredeemable. Micheal could be awesome if she was simply written better.
Yes, but... this is 2020. We don't allow ourselves to hope for improvement. We can only allow immediate love or hatred and nothing is allowed to improve over time, even if past experience proves that our current mindset isn't healthy.
Hey there, Satoshi, LTNS!
I don't have Paramount+, so I have to watch the show when I can get my hands on the Blu Rays. Hopefully by the time I'm done with Disco 1 and 2, I will find something to love by the time 3 is released.
Honestly, I am willing to give it a shot. This is the first show since Enterprise was canned and the first production since the JJ Abrams nonsense, so they gotta get back to it. Judging by CBS' commitment to the franchise now (we're getting another show, Strange New Worlds), it looks like we might be getting there.
@@jesuszamora6949 The main issue with Discovery moreso than any other series is that liking Micheal is absolutely essential to liking the show. You could hate Neelix and still watch and enjoy Voyager. You could think Archer was an idiot and enjoy Enterprise. Etc etc. But Disco is utterly impossible to enjoy without agreeing that the show's mary sue character is the best at everything always and you are privileged enough just to see her be awesome.
Again my problem with Micheal is just that she's written kind of badly a lot of the time. She's supposed to be a regular person yet she comes across as smarter than everyone else, more capable than everyone else, and just generally better than everyone else, at nearly everything, all of the time.
@@SatoshiMatrix1 Hopefully she doesn't prove completely intolerable by the time it starts improving.
Honestly, my problem with Voyager was Janeway. 🤣 She was stuffed so far up her own ass about rules to the detriment of her crew. Bullshit there weren't more mutinies.
@@jesuszamora6949 She WILL prove nearly intolerable in season 1. That's the entire thing. Season 2 is better but still be an issue. Season 1 is like "MICHEAL IS AWESOME AND RIGHT ALL THE TIME, EVEN WHEN SHE'S CLEARLY WRONG" and when you try to point out the problem of the character with other Trek fans you get blasted as being sexist and racist and clearly lacking taste, you know, even though Star Trek has always been a leftest show that attracts leftest people. I hate it. The character being black and a woman and smart is fine. I just want her not to be main focus 90% of the time as she has been in the first few seasons. Let the other characters shine.
And yeah, Voyager also suffered from lack of good writing. The Maquis were swept under the rug almost immediately, with everyone defaulting to Janeway's command and Janeway's way of doing things. Very rarely was there any tension. Even in big moments of the show, Chakotay and B'Elanna would just act like typical Starfleet officers and obey Janeway blindingly. I agree this would have worked as an end goal towards the end of the series, but it happened in like, the first few episodes of the show. There should have been a major rift and distrust that would be gradually chipped away over time.
It is funny, how space jesus is wayyy more relatable than Burnham was. But that's the thing. Space Jesus had his Journey and the fact that Sisko was extremly uncomfortable in this role, as the Emissary, because he was first and foremost Starfleet officer is that one thing, that makes him relatable. Not to mention his grief for his lost wife and still having to come to terms with that plus figuring to be a single dad (okay well, he is admittatly great at that, out of the box, but it is written in a way, that we know why). You see him growing into his role.
Where as Burnham is badass, just because she is badass. I'm glad though, that they made a character arc in season 3 to adress Burnham's issues. That was much needed.
NGL I'm not going to watch this video because I already know its true and that she's a better character... BUT I m wondering will you do a video or livestream about your final thoughts going into season 3 of disco before it airs?
Mariner doesn't have a tragic backstory that becomes the shows plot for a few episodes whenever the staff can't find a new idea. Mariner is a character with a problem and Michael Burnham is a character that is the solution that just so happens to find the right problem to solve. Mariner is fun and funny but still grounded- Burnham does the box checking for what a trek protagonist should be but goes flying from the ground if the writing needs her to be this or that special god like being of unfathomable ability. Mariner could have been less oblivious - Burnham shouldn't even need to have a Vulcan upbringing, a past lover spy turned cringe black ops, the unexplainable trust of every important commander, the absolute ability to take action without any clue of what's going on. I could write a book
algorithm comment
*bro bump*
I watched, and enjoyed Lower Decks. It does stray away from the Roddenberry ideal, but I don't care. It is done well, in my opinion. They only things that really bugged me at all were:
1. The biggest issue I had was that when Amina Ramsey shows up it threw my age assessment of the people we are following, especially Beckett, into question.
2. The other characters get a little less screen time than Beckett and Boimler, but that isn't much of a slight against how unlikable the two are, it is a positive that I find everyone so interesting.
3. The animation style took some getting use to but is perfectly fine. Anyone who complains should be forced to watch the Animated Series. Now that was some low budget, cost cutting animation.
4. The censored swearing is strange. Swear or don't. Don't go half way. I personally don't think it adds to the comedy they way it has been done.
5. And lastly, there was something about the writing of the episode 'Envoys' that rubbed me the wrong way. I can't quite put my finger on it but I didn't enjoy that episodes A plot all that much. Maybe it is the "I'm good at this just because I have more life experience' story line that has been done too much (in my experience).
I would call #1 a result of artistic license, since the whole show being animated means that characters' ages may not be accurately represented depending on how they're drawn.
want to thank you LORE, if not for your reviews I would not have given Lower Decks a chance. But between the more Trek esthetics, constant references to trek and trek canon, and the fact that it is an animated comedy that isn't trying to be trek...all allowed me to enjoy it. I couldn't connect with burnham either...for most of the reasons you stated. In fact, other than Pike, I didn't care for any of the STD crew. Hell, half the the bridge crew don't even matter...could be replaced by any other officer without effecting the show.
They respect her so much she was sent to a penal colony & most of the crew hate her...but use her anyway, when she can do something for them. Even though she was totally right about the Klingons in that story! & if you don't like what she did, which I can understand, you should blame the Vulcans for teaching her that. Her attitude is very like Lt. Valeris from "The Undiscovered Country" ~an interesting character.
Marinor is great though
At the end, I say if they don’t love her they respect her and they did even if they didn’t.. I know selective listening is advantageous...
@@LoreReloaded I watched your video & it's fine, I just wanted to say what I said too
In the season finally Burnham literally ascended to the form of Angel!! We don’t need a messianic figure in Star Trek. A competent Starfleet officer will do just fine!
Brilliantly articulated opinion.
This was good
I think Lower Decks in general is better than Picard and Discovery
This feels like an apple to oranges comparison.
Luckily it’s not
Well, I will take the chance to sound like the angry fan channels but the reason is obvious.
While Mariner was written as a Trek character (for by far the best trek show of the current period), with her own ups and downs, and a lot of personality which you can like or hate.
Michael Burnham was written as a poster child for political and social positions, in a manner which makes Rey "Skywalker" to look like a complex and well written character.
What about Kirk and Janeway?
Forget Star Trek. I don’t think Kurtzman and the gang understand science fiction in general!
I'd go one futher...I don't think his ilk understand how to write *characters* who could be actual living, breathing people, rather than cardboard standy cutouts...look at the other movies he's been a part of:
The Mummy (reboot for the "Dark Universe")
Cowboys & Aliens
The Amazing Spider-man 2
Transformers: RoTF
There's more, but you get my point.
@@Corbomite_Meatballs True. I watched Transformers. Not an actual human being in sight!
There was debate about the characters in LD not living up to the ideals of Star Trek crews of the past because they aren't perfect ones we strive to be but Burnam is too perfect and has to be the hero in the narrative to be worshiped. So, too perfect. Mariner has no real ambitions and is satisfied being in lower decks even though she comes from a pedigree family. Even though she is a very good officer she acts like she's not and flaunts authority. She's deeply flawed which relates to people.
Yes, YES! ALL THE YES! I'll still watch the vid! 😋
I really wish Tilly was the main character. She’s kinda like a female Barkley. But most of all she’s a relatable human being, not an angel!
no thanks Micheal is better
@@tomjomes4271, Of course, she's better SHE'S AN ANGEL OF GOD!!
An excellent appraisal of the two characters.
I am in agreement with your negative thoughts regarding Michael Burnham.
Turn out that the joke series is discovery, not Lower Deck
Nah, dont need another character i can relate to, theres morn
I don't agree about Burnham being non-relatable. I'm also a human trying to live a logical life. Marinor is written more as a character in Rick and Morty, full of comedy, although Lower Decks surprised me with the permadeaths of both the entire crew of a starship and LtCmdr. Shaxs, did not see that coming out of this series.
She’s not written like rick and morty know.. and humans by their nature aren’t logical so you stand alone on that I suppose
Someone is full of themselves.......