Yeah, i read someone's thoughts on this, and their counter argument was basically "Brandon is an alpha male, and Ashara can't control her ovaries. " as if Brandon isn't capable of putting bros before hoes.
Dolorous Jaemi Lysa is a horribly unreliable narrator after Brandon hurt Littlefinger. We know from Cat's recollection that Brandon promised to not kill Littlefinger, took off armor to match Littlefinger who as a lower titled lordling didn't have full armor plating and repeatedly told him to yield after getting cut up so he wouldn't die. Hardly someone cruel.
thats what im saying. alot of this makes sense just not the jon being ashara and neds and the brandon being into ashara i think he read into that a bit to far. but the other parts of the idea make sense
I think you make a mistake by underplaying Ned bringing back Dawn to the Daynes. It's not merely an heirloom. It is a symbol of their house, part of their identity as a family. Ned could have taken it home to Winterfell as a prize, or he could have ransomed it back to the Daynes, and they'd have likely paid any price for it. Instead, he delivered it back personally, out of respect for Ser Arthur.
@@gerardjagroo I agree with you. But I would point out that GRRM actually does sometimes sacrifice realistic interior thought to persist a mystery. How could Jon Snow's parentage stay secret when we spend so much time in book 1 in Ned's perspective?
@@lonnyworthamii9805 it seems like Ned dissociates a lot when it comes to things like that in the past, I think in the book once he saw Lyana he doesn’t remember anything else but howland coming to get him like a while later
Yh he gave the sword back bt not ser daynes bones. He goes there and then ashara dies mysteriously with her body never being found.... Mmm very logical
Personally I believe the only part Brandon played was the introduction between the two. Ned being the "Quiet Wolf" was simply too shy to approach the beautiful Ashara Dayne. I think Ned and Ashara were in love and romantically involved during the tourney of Harrenhall. Ned being Ned, probably pledged to marry Ashara after the tourney (he was in love, possibly took her virginity and as a second son free to marry who he wished) but Robert's rebellion made that impossible. Honorable Ned felt compelled to honor the betrothal and marry Cat in Brandon's place after his death (plus the Riverlands/Tully alliance would be crucial to Robert's fledgling Rebellion). Upon learning of Ned's marriage to Cat, a heartbroken, and now dishonored, Ashara leapt to her death. I would think she'd have committed suicide long before that if she was truly in love with Brandon.
Jarrod Jemmott No I think if she did commit suicide it's because Ned took Jon from her. But I believe Ashara is either Quaithe or Lemore. And we will see Ashara unite with Jon in the books
wolverineminer GRRM did not specify Lemore's eye color, even her hair color; he just had Tyrion describe Lemore as pretty even in her advanced years and her stretch marks in her belly which only means childbirth. It is certainly plausible that Lemore = Ashara. Tyrion did not even meet Ashara Dayne in Harrenhal; he was a child at the Rock that time, and Tywin Lannister did not even attend the tourney.
Dokka Bae It's more probable that Young Griff is related to Illyrio or Varys; maybe Illyrio's son or a descendant of House Blackfyre, and all Valyrians have purple, indigo, or lilac eyes. That's why Illyrio and Varys are supportive to Young Griff's cause. Can't be Ned's son with Ashara. Both of them had dark hair.
This. I'm all for tinfoil, and examining Gurm's past work is totally acceptable, but analyzing his love life is crossing into the domain of creepy obsession.
+Pablo Ruiz but it makes sense because writers sometimes write based on their own personal experiences and that definitely seems to be the case with GRRM
I think that Ashara only looked to Brandon because Ned was too shy ask her out, so Brandon would act the big brother and ask her out for him. It kinda fits him, because Ned would be red top to bottom, which Brandon may get a kick out of. And if there were a triangle, Ned would probably have some kinda scorn towards him, but Ned names his second son in honor of him. It makes sense for a triangle, but my initial thought were that Ned was too shy and Brandon helped him out.
@Ulises Leon why tho? I mean, "ah yes, I hold a grudge against you and you die due to some completely unrelated issue, but since we're family that anger/hatred becomes guilt because yes" sounds absolutely fucking retarded to me. Then again, I might just be some sort of unfeeling coldhearted bastard or something, but I really doubt that's the case
Ivan Bartrina Carreras Makes sense to me. Hating a family brother you used to love is a complex emotion. If they die before you reconcile it, I can imagine the regret would easily turn into guilt.
Think it's more likely that Ashara and Ned were in love and remained in love, but Ned was forced by politics + Hoster Tully to marry Cat for the war. Ashara is clearly not dead, and most likely is Septa Lamore and Young Griff is probably the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, with Jon being her baby with Ned. Ned switching kids and the whole story is heavily foreshadowed and repeated (a trope of Martins) with what Jon forces Gilly to do.
Did you see the Order of the Green Hand's video on this or did you come up with it yourself? I hadn't even considered the possibility outside of R+L=J until I saw their video.
I really hope Jon is from N + A, not R + L. It makes him more human, he really is just a bastard who achieved greatness, not some special promised hero with a Prince for a father. It also makes Ned more human; that even he lost his honour once.
+CrappyPunkRock182 He would still be a bastard, though. Lyanna and Rhaegar weren't married. He'd be no more special than Gendry, bastard son of a king. So regardless of his parentage, he's still just a bastard who achieved greatness.
+WitchVine Rhaegar and Lyanna could have got married, since Sansa married Ramsay at the same time she was still married to Tyrion. So these things work..
If it is n+a =j he's probably more powerful lol Don't quote me as I just watch videos, but the daynes have valerian blood or something, more,powerful than tygaryans
What...? Brandon asked her if she will dance with his brother, because Ned was quiet and shy. She laughed and said yes, and that was it. Then they fell in love. That was it. If you want love triangle, than take Ned, Ashara and Catelyn. There it is. Really, from what we heard, Brandon talked with her once. Come on.
Amf I agree. I feel it's pretty evident Ned didn't love Catelyn until roughly 10 years into their marriage. Jon looks like Ned. I mean Cat describes Brandon as being alot more handsome then Ned ever was and Ashara was one of the most beautiful women in Westeros at that time. If anything while she was Elias companion she likely went to Gulltown cause Ned was in the Eyrie. If Brandon had something to do with her. It would have been during Brandons captivity and the mad King would have had Ashara killed. We know Lord Borell told Davos the people of Sisterton saw Ned with a fishermans daughter who gave birth to Jon.
Yes, I don't think she was in love with Brandon Stark...I mean there's practically nothing to say about them. We just know they dance together. That's all. And come on, Ned was quiet and shy, of course he was in love with her. If I remember well I think she had a girl unborn. I'm almost sure she was Ned's daughter. But I suppose those questions will never be answered as this is not what is interesting us about ASOIAF right now
This video was brilliant. Though some of your theories are definitely a stretch for me, out of everybody analyzing ASOIAF you're the one who seems to have the best thematic grasp on it. Even when I completely disagree with you I come away having learned something or having to at least reckon my currently held theory or belief. Sometimes, your interpretations of Martin's work are so well done that I not only redefine my understanding of the series but feel its full impact in a way my reading hadn't before. You're a top quality critic.
+Preston Jacobs That's an interesting thought. I always saw him as a future kingsguard but I guess that would make him too white for an ASOIAF character. Breaking his vows would add in some grey. On another note, I wonder if the ax is proportional.
I sincerely doubt it. Dany's very clearly stated to be attracted to "bad boys." That's the type she falls for and it definitely shows: she likes both Drogo and Daario, both vicious barbaric murderers whose sole raison d'être is fighting and killing. She lusts after Gerris Drinkwater, who Barristan sees as false coin the moment he spots him. Contrast to that she is not at all interested in more sound and quiet men like Hizdahr and Quentyn, even though Barristan says they'd probably make her happier. Dany wants passion, not love. It actually results in a bit of hypocrisy on Dany's part when it comes to slavery. Her entire spiel is that she hates the slave trade and knows what it's like to be sold, yet she had no real issue with bringing slavery to the Seven Kingdoms when Drogo declared he'd burn and enslave the entire continent. Why? Because she loved him. This girl is willing to overlook one's bad side if she's in love with someone. And of course she gives no end of grief to Hizdahr and his supposed lack of loyalty while she's constantly lusting after and defending a mercenary who has no reason at all to be loyal to her. So I'd say GRRM clearly wrote this as part of her faults and character arc for the series. Though I also think he'll cheat in a bit in that Jon Snow is both a quiet, kind-hearted man AND a bad boy. And if she falls for him like she does in the show... Yeah, me thinks it'll always remain one of Dany's flaws. Which makes sense, especially if we look at GRRM's love life.
It's actually kinda sad that no one on game of thrones actually married the ones they truly loved. Ned probably wanted Ashara. Cat was to be married to Brandon Stark. Robert had to settle for Cersei after his wife to be died giving birth to another guys kid. Sansa getting married to Tyrion and then Ramsey.
In the history of Westeros that is very much true, but people who marry for love always lead to trouble. Duncan targaryen weds a commoner then results in a briefly rebellion with lord baratheon.
I personally like to believe that Brandon spoke with Ashara to get her to dance with Ned, Since he was seen as the 'quiet wolf', and Brandon was the polar opposite(Would also show a bit of brotherhood between them). I'd like to think that they fell in love, and when Brandon died, and he was forced to marry Cat out of honor, He brought the sword to Ashara to tell her that her brother was dead, and that he would need to fulfill his honor and marry someone else. All the while, Ashara only having a stillborn of there's to show for their relationship, All three causing her to kill herself. Losing Ned, her brother and their only possible child.
Preston, you are really amazing! The detailed research, general knowledge and passion you put in your work are amazing. Not to mention your complex parallels between ASOIAF and other GRRM's books or even general philosophy. It's a delight to watch your videos and I haven't seen anybody that compares to your work on ASOIAF. Keep up the exquisite work you do!
+Preston Jacobs I got goosebumps seeing your reply :) . Thank you as well. As a side note, I'm used to checking my youtube page daily to see if you have posted something new, even though I'm a subscriber and therefore get notified when something new pops up. That's how eager I am to see your videos. Your work is truly astonishing.
Awesome insight on Ned and Ashara's relationship as well as love in general in asoiaf. It's really interesting to see just how much of GRRM's personal life is implemented into his works. Thanks for creating another great video Preston!
+mike mikeson Well if you watch his interviews he was clearly an introvert in his early years and thus probably not great with women. This can tend to lead to over-attachment when accepted which describes Martin's relationship with the redhead who started fucking his friend and thus his obsession with them, that can destroy a guys confidence and cause him to seek approval from women through whatever means necessary. I look at it like G.R.R.M is Annelyn and he's afraid The Meat Bringer is gonna come fuck his date. Weird to speak about one of my favorite authors like this.
Bloodraven, Bittersteel and Shiera was another important love triangle or perhaps unrequited love situation. Either way the realm suffered. Still rewatching and rethinking! Thank you again for all your hard work!
I have to say, this is likely the most compelling and believable explanation of what their relationship was like that I've yet heard. Great job Preston.
I'm currently reading Dying of the Light. Gwen is a character, who chose to become the sex slave of two macho men on a dying planet over being with Dirk. To Dirk, life has no meaning without Gwen. Yeah, GRRM was bleeding all over this.
I'd say Sansa and Joffrey doesn't quite count. She was in love with him and thought he loved her back. As soon as he killed her father, she knew he didn't love her, and she hated him.
+indiciaobscure There's a lot of them that don't really work. That's one of them, for sure. Also, I can't remember if he included Elia + Rhaegar + Lyanna, because that certainly is one.
Joffrey may have loved her in his own twisted way. He is a sociopath and he may have been expressing his love by hurting her. He is very possessive of her and almost wouldn't give her up. I wouldn't put it past that little shit that he did really love her.
Yeah, but things that are not love don't make exceptions for people who don't know what love is. Like, possessiveness doesn't suddenly become love just because someone thinks that's what love is.
Pulled my car over to watch. I have been waiting for this! This is by far my favorite video that you have posted. Feminism, love, and the 64,000 dollar question of parentage. Thank you Preston.
+Bastardosupremo it was en exaggeration. I was leaving a parking lot with a smoothie and decided not to pull out of the spot when the notification came through and just sat and watched the video. Ever had one of those days when good ASOIAF content is the perfect distraction?
Ashara loved Ned, leaves him for Brandon, gets pregnant, loses Brandon, loses the baby, Ned marries Cat so she loses him too, so she has nothing and kills herself. Makes total sense.
I guess that makes sense but it also feels like a big non-sequitor. GRRM just adds this story where Ned just takes this massive detour to Starfell after tearing down the tower of joy and his ex then kills herself. Why would anyone write that if it didn't have any impact on the story?
One thing you're forgetting about Ned's story is that after the tourney he was seen with a beautiful woman while travelling to winterfell. Catelyn was still in the riverlands. If the love Ned had for Ashara was so unrequited, why would she travel with him? And people who saw the two said that they were very much in love....
Yanaj005 because their love wasn't unrequited - more than a year passes between Tournament and Brandon's supposed wedding to Catelyn and it is possible the two had a relationship when Jon was in Vale and Ashara was in Dragonstone.
This video hits right in the feels. Part of growing up is realising that we create an image in our minds about people and this almost always contradicts reality.
I think you've gotten the love Triangle wrong. Catelyn, Ned and Ashara are more likely. Ned loved Ashara, would have married her perhaps, but when Brandon died Stark honor, and Roberts alliance came first. So he left Ashara for Cat.
Hmm... Perhaps Neds extreme sense of duty started when he decided to leave Ashara. To justify that decision he needed to value duty highly, even if the real reason was that he didn't have the courage to disappoint his family and depart from what was expected of him. The rest of the theory is not convincing me - I still believe that R+L=J is more probable.
But he is still undutiful in the first book. Sometimes he does thigs that is dishonorable. He is just a man. He cant be 100% honourable and as the series has shown honour is subjective.
SmultronsyltNatha yes Jon is real Aegon Tagarean as before dying, Lynaa told Ned that "His" name is Aegon...here she clearly said "His name" it means baby is male not girl so no chance of Dany
The way I see it happening based on what we know of each character is that Ned did love Ashara and Ashara loved Ned back. They had sex at the Tourney and Ashara was pregnant with their child. But that child is not Jon Snow, R+L=J this cannot be denied.Ned on his Honor too the promise of his sister claims the child as his own as she dies in her bed of blood. He takes Dawn the Sword of Arthur Dayne who he and Howland slew at the Tower of Joy to Starfall to return it, but he also arrives with Jon. Who he claims as his own, as was promised. Ashara, loving Ned, would be devastated to know that their child had been Stillborn, and yet here he is showing up to her place with a "bastard boy" and the Sword of her beloved Brother who he admits to killing in battle.The triple wammy of having a stillborn child of the man you love, that same man having another child, and the news that your Older brothr was killed by this man, would drive any sane person to suicide.
It wasn't just a sword. It was the ancestral greatsword of House Dayne, Dawn. A one of a kind relic possibly forged from a falling star, thousands of years ago!
+Simon Westerlind Japp, så sant. Antar att det är en detalj som aldrig någonsin har en chans att nämnas i serien nu i s6 trots att Dayne ska vara med några minuter :(
Preston, I think you may be right about the baby swap. I think Ned took Lyanna's baby to Ashara and convinced her to take Lyanna's son to keep this child safe. He, in exchange took his real son with Ashara, Jon, home with him to Caitlyn. Doesn't this make more sense to the entire story? I think this new blonde hair, handsome male character who come into GOT cast in season 7 may be Lyanna's son with Rhaegar, the Prince that was Promised?! Your thoughts?
You're missing the fact that Ned would have absolutely hated Brandon after this happens. He doesn't hate Brandon or have anger at all. He basically went t war from Brandon and even named a child after him. I doubt he'd do that if Bran stole Ned's love.
U really think he would hate him? I don’t think it hate fits Ned personality, anger yes but not hating his Brother. They were Young and young people make mistakes. He couldn‘t hold a grudge for his Older brother just for a possible love Affair (between brandon and ashara) and still years After his death
What if something worse happened than Ned merely discovering that he couldn't be together with Ashara? Think about it: he killed her brother, personally, and did not even bring his body back (might it have been because a rotting body would've upset a newborn child? Probably). As well, he supported Robert in the Rebellion, which ended with the death of Rhaegar and Ellia Martell, people that Ashara probably knew well AND may have even been friends with. So already, Ned has two things going against him for Ashara to look at him and rekindle that desire. It also doesn't help that Brandon was killed by Aerys, so if she truly loved Brandon as you say she did, then her real love already died. That's an immediate three strikes against Ned: her lover died, her friends died, and Ned killed her brother. So when he comes to see her with her brother's sword (and perhaps a child), she would rightfully be furious and depressed. Perhaps Ned, in futility, tried to reassure her and profess his own love for her, which would end exactly as you would imagine it would. Then Ashara, probably curious at this point as to why he's carrying a child around, would be told the truth - after all, Ned loved her, and when you love someone, you instinctively trust them, especially if you are more inexperienced with love (which I presume Ned would be). More likely than not, Ashara discovered that R+L=? (could be J or D, doesn't matter at this point). She's in grief, furious; her brother's killer is standing before her, and now he has admitted to committing a CRIME under King Robert's nose? Remember: Ned is keeping a Targaryen child alive in secret - not just any child, but the TRUE heir to the Iron Throne. Imagine Robert's fury if he knew Ned betrayed him like this. There would be blood, another war against the North between the Baratheons and Lannisters, fighting the Riverlands and the North. All the traitors turning on each other, while Dorne watches in a serene state of schadenfreud? Ashara enacting revenge against Ned for dishonouring her and killing her friends and brother? We don't know much about her, so as the song goes, "you may be wrong for all I know, but you may be right", but I would bet Ashara had a sickly thought of revealing this secret to Robert. Ned, perhaps in his folly, realizes what he's done. He swore a promise to his sister, most likely to protect her child, and now he has single-handily put this child in the greatest path of harm. Even if Robert doesn't kill him in yet another war for the crown, he would spend the entirety of his life in Court, being manipulated by the Council and other power-hungry people for their own gains, always inches away from another blade. His life would forever be in peril, and Ned would be helpless to protect him, completely contrary to what he promised. Ashara's death is indeed surrounded in mystery. We know nothing about her child, or her love affairs, or even if she even is dead. Only two people would know for sure: one of the elder Daynes... and Ned. But the Daynes love Ned; hell, Edric was named after Ned and nursed by the same woman as Jon Snow was. Perhaps Ned had done the best he could for the Daynes, returning Dawn and helping the family in their time of grief. Or maybe... Ned hid something else from them? Ned had to protect his sister's child; he told the wrong woman, and now she threatened to tear the realm apart again in the name of revenge. And where love is the death of duty, Ned had many of them to honour. MY BIG NUTTY THEORY IS THIS: Ned killed Ashara by throwing her out of the tower and lied to the Daynes, hell EVERYONE, about it. No currently-surviving Daynes seem to know, or believe, that Ned was a bad person; cold and distant, maybe, but he was apparently nice to them while he was down there. And killing her would explain his grief even more profoundly than by merely lying about Lyanna's child; where merely keeping her child alive would be burdensome and taxing, knowing that he had to take the life of his love in order to protect this child's identity - for the realm and for his sister's promise - that would be maddening. Perhaps it was Ned who orchestrated having Dany raised in Dorne while Jon came back with him to Winterfell, with the support of the Daynes (who believe him innocent); perhaps he wanted Jon sent to the wall not only to protect him, but to keep him away so he doesn't have to think again of Ashara and what he had done. It would also explain why Ned goes through so much pain to never discuss this secret with anyone else, since the last person he did discuss it with was killed BY HIS OWN HAND. And what a fitting way to be punished by the Old Gods, having your own son thrown from a tower in your castle? Your thoughts?
I don't think ned killed her, she seems to be the one who informed ned about the location of his sister, if she did leave ned for his handsome brother, why would ned build a statue of him in the crypts and him his second son brandon? Ned sworn a promise to his sister about protecting the child, while wylla was there she must have convinced ned to go starfall for help?
We have been going along all this time thinking of Ned as this near perfect honorable man. We know he was deeply troubled about Jon and what happened back then. I bet GRRM is going to throw us all for a loop when it's revealed what really happened. Maybe Ned wasn't as perfect as we are led to believe.
Just rewatched this, and I'm once again amazed at Preston's ability to come up with well-construed examples of overanalyzing. He sets up Brandon Stark as the father of Ashara's child based only on the fact that _he once talked to her on his brother's behalf_ (and on the fact that Selmy only mentions a Stark instead of specifically Ned Stark). That's laughably flimsy! He's trying to build an Ashara-Brandon-Ned love triangle, even though it's painfully obvious that there's another love triangle involving that relationship: Ashara-Ned-Catelyn. Throwing in Brandon Stark only complicates things needlessly, as his potential relationship to Ashara Dayne is utterly irrelevant to the story. Occam's razor applied to the whole mess yields the following: - Ned and Ashara hooked up at Harrenhall, she ended up pregnant. - Robert's Rebellion came into play, Ned was forced to marry Catelyn Tully out of convenience. - At the end of the rebellion Ned kills Ashara's brother, takes his sword, finds his Lyanna's orphaned lovechild. he goes to Starfall with it, because he certainly can't take the kid to King's Landing just like that. - At Starfall, Ashara deals with grief caused by her possibly stillborn child (and Arthur's death, maybe Ned's marriage). She either kills herself, or she goes to Essos and raises the kid to become faux-Aegon Targaryen - ultimately, it does not matter. What _does_ matter is that Ned can now pretend he brought the newborn from Starfall, not from the Tower of Joy. He lets people believe the kid's mother was Wylla the wet nurse, because he feels it would be disrespectful to bring Ashara Dayne and her child (both of whom may or may not be dead) into the conspiracy relating specifically to R+L=J. - Whether Ned and Ashara actually had a child together is completely irrelevant to the R+L=J issue, on which the metaplot appears to be hinged. Ditto for the ultimate fate of Ashara and her child.
I've thought that Septa Lemore was Ashara Dayne for a long time. Still, a lot of what you talk about here is conjecture. We know Ned was shy as a youth, so it's possible his brother simply spoke to Ashara as a way to break the ice for him. Even assuming that a love triangle is somehow necessary in this case, we already have a love triangle formed by Ned, Ashara, and Catelyn. Yes, the man is the heartbreaker in this case, but he certainly isn't the first; just look at how often Robert cheats on Cersei, and how devoted his heart remains to Lyanna. And, as you yourself pointed out, Stannis is the heartbreaker between his wife and Melisandre. Renly is just a heartbreaker all around. Gee, something about those Baratheon men, eh? Then of course Rhaegar is a heartbreaker between Elia and Lyanna. And true, none of these men are POV characters, but let's remember that Martin is not restrictive in his POVs; he portrays all manner of lifestyles and worldviews in his POV characters, so why should this be an exception? In short, I suppose it's possible that Ashara had interest in two Stark men, but I don't think it's necessarily some sort of requirement to be fulfilled. Tyrion is in a sense the heartbreaker between Sansa and Shae, as another example. For a while there I thought perhaps Aegon is secretly Ashara's child (which would fit nicely with her being Septa Lemore) but that wouldn't really fit with the Blackfyre theory, which personally I think is a fairly strong theory so... it's a tough call what the actual deal is with Ashara's pregnancy. But let's assume she's alive. Why fake her own death? Either she's involved in some sort of conspiracy (Blackfyre?) or she's running from something. And the latter option introduces still another possibility: perhaps her child was not a Stark child, but a Targaryen child. We know that the Mad King took liberties with the women of the Red Keep. If he was bold enough to take such liberties with the wife of his own Hand, Joanna Lannister, as some claim, he would be even moreso with his Daughter-in-Law's ladies-in-waiting, especially considering Ashara's purported beauty. If she had a Targaryen child, that would give Ned excellent motivation to go and see her, to urge her in person to flee now that Robert Baratheon's ascension to the throne is imminent and all Targaryens and Targaryen loyalists are in grave danger. If that is the case, the idea that Aegon is actually her child becomes even stronger, although again it throws a wrench into the Blackfyre theory. Another problem with this theory is that Jon Connington knows her and would recognize her; if Aegon is her child, and if she is hiding as Septa Lemore, what are the odds he wouldn't have put two and two together? Either way, the question of why she disappeared is extremely important, and I think it's what's really at the crux of her story. Why she ran is probably the key to finding out what really happened to her leading up to her disappearance. I've also considered the possibility that the Darkstar's behavior may have something to do with Ashara. He's too old to be her child, admittedly, but all the same he *is* a Dayne and his actions *are* a bit bizarre. If there is a connection here, I can't find it, but on the other hand there is clearly a lot going on under the surface with the Dayne family. I'm not sure what to make of it. Or, who knows. Maybe she really did just kill herself. There's certainly enough tragedy going on in her story that it's believable.
Darkstars bizzare actions break up the "alliance" between Dorne and the Iron Throne and almost forced Dorne into war with the Lannisters, this plays right into Aegons hands.
Ognjen Garić True enough, although if Arianne's plan had succeeded they would have gone to war with the Lannisters anyway... albeit with the goal of merely installing a different Lannister in power, soooo fair point.
+Elizabeth Wear Yes, but if Ariannes plan succeded, then Dorne and Aegon would be in conflict too, one would fight for Myrcella, one for, well Aegon, maybe thats why Darkstar wanted Myrcella dead, that would make it seem as if Darkstar told Doran, so he would have a chance to pull off his scheme, but I personaly belive that no one of Ariannes crew told him, but instead one of his spies, Arianne was not careful enough
Ognjen Garić Very well put. It definitely seems as though the Daynes and the Martells are not really on the same page here; killing Myrcella is not a move that Doran would agree with, at least not at that point in time. But that being the case, it is a mystery *why* the Martells and Daynes wouldn't be on the same page. The Martells have a long history of Targaryen loyalty; if the Daynes intend a Targaryen return, why not work with the Martells in a more direct way? Instead what we're seeing is two different houses trying to achieve the same goal in two different ways (assuming the Daynes have been behind Aegon all along). Wouldn't it be more advantageous to work together? Seems like a liability not to. What do you think?
Perhaps its weirder than that. Perhaps Ned and Ashara were in love and even got married but then Ned had to marry Cat and so Ned and Ashara separated with no one the wiser that they were lawfully wed. This would be an interesting twist on the trope. Ned has his heart broken because he has to marry a woman he does not love and leave the woman he does love. It might even be Ashars idea. Ned would not want to do it because it is not honorable but is convinced to do it for the good of the realm. this would also draw a parallel with his conversation with Varys and why Ned refuses to dishonor himself again for the good of the realm.
No way Ned would even think of abandoning Cat for Ashara, even if I believe he loved her. He would never leave Cat after marrying her and her being pregnant with his son.
Hmm, while I respect your opinion and of course the work you put into formulating it into your video, I really have to disagree with you on this one. I think its much simpler. I think Ned and Ashara did fall in love at the Tourney but Brandon wasn't a third wheel so to speak. I think he saw how badly Ned wanted to meet the open and confident Ashara, and knowing his brother's shy and quiet nature, took it upon himself to get the two to meet. I think there was a love affair and likely even plans to marry before the rebellion. Then everything changed. Brandon died and Ned was obligated to marry Cat. He did so, fought the war, went to the TOJ to find his sister, took the baby that I believe to be Jon, went to Starfall where Ashara was pregant with their child, told her of her brother's death and his unplanned union with Cat in his dead brother's stead. She was overcome with grief of all she had lost, perhaps lost the baby and jumped to her death. Now, there is another theory I've heard, and that is that Allyria Dayne may be Ashara's daughter but raised as a sister to keep family pride maybe or protect the girl's image. I haven't done any calculating to see if that is possible but if it is than she would be Ned's daughter and that could be why the family still thinks highly of Ned. They know the cicumstances aren't his fault and that he truly loved Ashara and meant to be with her. I know my theory still has unanswered questions but in truth all theories will unless George decides to come right out and write a prequel book or set of books. (which would be freaking amazing) SPOILER ALERT - But as we know, at least a bit of the TOJ scene will be shared this season so lots of questions should be answered. Maybe I'll be wrong or maybe you'll have to make a video fixing your errors ;) lol
this is indeed a lot simpler, just as sound a theory. To be honest I thought about halfway through the video it might be possible that Ned got angry at Ashara for not wanting to run away with him and she ended up falling from the Tower. But that seems like a stretch. I would be a hell of a twist!!
+SciFi FantasyGirl I partially agree with you, and I think that Ned may have not been the honour first character we know now, back around the beginning of the war. I think you should go check out another theory channel I found called IdeasOfIceAndFire. He lays out his theory about Jon's parentage (that R+L doesn't equal J) really well, and you'll see a bunch of stuff that comes together and explains a lot
The one problem I have with Brandon and Ashara been Jon's parents. Is that why would Eddard call him his bastard? He had too much honor and it goes against his character to do something like that...
+DarkFox2071 If Jon was legitimately Brandon and Ashara's son, it means he would be the heir to Winterfell and possibly Starfall. The Stark-Tully alliance, though, was founded on the promise of a Stark-Tully heir. Even an illegitimate Jon would threaten Robb's claim and who knows about the unknown intricacies of Dornish Law. B+A=J threatens the realm and would need to be hidden.
+Preston Jacobs But Dornish law doesn't apply in non-Dorne areas, so wouldn't it be.. beneficial to the Stark genes and welfare if Jon would be allowed to be Lord of Starfall? With there being a strong alliance between the North and the South?
+Preston Jacobs I think that B+A=J and R+L=D works because it mirrors what happens with Mance's son and Gilly's at the wall. Ned probably switches them to keep Dany safe, and that's why Ashara kills herself.
+daddyleon Jon wouldn't have been next in line at Starfall if B+A=J. Preston says "possibly heir to Starfall" which means that he might have ended up as heir to Starfall if this, this and this happened. The chances of Jon ending up as Lord of Starfall would be pretty slim, but Preston thinks that, that slim chance is part of the reason that Jon was removed from that equation. =)
The truth is Ned and Ashara loved each other but Ned had to marry cat due to the death of his brother and the war . When Ned went to Satrfell to tell her what happened she committed suicide .As for the child we know too little.
You don't think Ashara and Ned not being able to be together, without Brandon in the mix, isn't already tragic? You don't think her giving a child to go live with Cat without her isn't a heartbreaking moment? They might still love each other, but haven't been together for all the years after he left Starfall. The triangle could easily be Ned, Ashara and Barristan Selmy/Ned, Ashara and Cat, but not Brandon. I think that still fits.
Change up:Ned left pregnant Ashara, mother of Jon he had married before a weirwood BECAUSE Hoster Tully forced Ned to marry catelyn and Jon Arryn to marry lysa. This he required for men of river lands to join Robert. So upset was the Blackfish, that at that wedding feast he renounced his house! After TOJ, Ned took Rhaegar and Lyannas baby, Aegon / young Griff to Ashara and Jon their child, the only true born Stark to winterfell. Ashara cooks up the suicide story and becomes septer Lamore, disappears, Aegon and connington with her. Martin asks, "was her body ever found"?. No. FURTHER. Beware the mummers dragon. Varys is the mummer, raised in a theater troop. Danyerys is Not who she has been led to believe. SHE in fact is a child who was raised in a large stone house with a red door near lemon trees. Varys has switched babies before, but this time the child is the one given the false story of who she is. Varys will use Dany to take over westeros then expose himself as the last surviving child of royal house?(can't remember) that was taken to essos, and Dany as low born, he takes the cake.
Well it's a four way really, Ned, Cat, older Stark guy, and Ashara. Maybe Ned was forced to marry Cat and leave Ashara, because he needed Tully's forces and Hoster Tully had his mind set on Cat marrying a Stark. Maybe this is some of the reason the Black Fish is the Black Fish, partly.
You are more right about these theories than you think you are........or, you are being modest. By delving into the abyss that is GRRM you can make sense out of his stories. You are the best man! I love the people that come on here, support you, and trash you. They are just angry they can't comprehend your knowledge.
I've rewatched this video multiple times over the years and here is what I got: Brandon, and the whole "looked to Stark" thing, are red herrings. The actual person whom Ashara fell in love is..... Howland Reed. Preston even mentions in the video how one of GRRM's girlfriends left him for his best friend. For Ned, that wouldn't be Brandon. It would be Howland. Howland being Ashara's lover also explains a lot of other things. Like the fact that despite being such a good friend to Ned and saving his life, the two apparently never have contact. When he speaks to Bran about Howland he gets very sad and stops talking. Also, it's Jojen who tells Bran about the story of the Tourney at Harrenhal. Apparently Jojen's heard this story dozens of times and is surprised that Ned never told it to his children. Makes a lot of sense if Ashara is Jojen's mother that he would have been told the story of how their parents met, meanwhile for Ned it's a painful memory of a lost love. Finally, Preston asks what that request was that Ned felt obligated to fulfill for Ashara. I think it was to bring her to the Neck so she could be with Howland. A request he couldn't deny, especially after Howland had just saved his life at the Tower of Joy. Maybe it was Howland who asked him to go to Starfall and talk with Ashara in the first place. I'll admit, there are still some missing pieces to the puzzle but I'm pretty confident in the overall picture. Ashara is Howland Reeds wife and the mystery child that was born to her is Meera Reed.
@@Tuosma haha thanks. I actually got the idea from another ASOIAF commentator and I thought it made a lot of sense (definitely more than her being Septa Lemore or Quaithe).
There's also some indication that Meera, not Jojen is Howland's heir. She is introduced first at Winterfell and Jojen is merely referred to has her brother. This could be a hint of Dornish influence within House Reed.
The intro music: So. Perfect. Like a cross between the intro to a Spanish soap opera set in ancient times and a break in between scenes of a middle eastern porno.
Well to me the basic story seems straight forward. Ashara and Ned were in love and possibly promised each other to marry. Roberts rebellion happens and now with Brandon's death Ned has to marry Cat. In addition he has Lyanna's newborn son with him. You can't tell a baby's hari or eye color after they are born, you have to wait for a bit. He goes to starfall and maybe even asks Ashara to claim the son is hers and either Brandons (not sure how the timeline works out)or Neds because he can't explain Valerian features otherwise. Turns out the Baby has Stark features instead of Valyrian features so he leaves and takes Jon as his son. Ashara then commits suicide out of grief. Possible major spat with Ashara occurs in between. The pregnancy may also have been fake entirely in preparation for claiming Jon as her son.
I don’t agree with most of this, but it’s my opinion. Ned was crushing on Ashara; they were not in love. A sword is easier to carry than a body and Dawn isn’t just any sword. He was probably sad for her, but at that point he was married and I doubt he broke those vows.
Preston, I disagree with your idea that the women characters can’t be heartbroken sad sacks. Brienne is a heartbroken sad sack, she loved Renly but he never reciprocated. Arya loves Gendry but never gets him. Cat and Lady Dustin both loved Brandon but never got him. Sansa loved Loras but never got him. Cersei loved Rhaegar but never got him. Lysa loved Littlefinger but he never reciprocated. Asha never gets to be with any of the men she has feelings for. Selyse is neglected by her husband, who spends all of his time with another woman. Irri and Jhiqui fight over Rakharo, one of them is gonna end up heartbroken. Elia loved Rhaegar but he left her for Lyanna. There is an equal, parallel pantheon of heartbroken, sad sack women. And Rhaegar, a man, broke Jon Connington’s heart by not reciprocating his feelings
Boy can George spin a yarn. Ashara Dayne, at the most consequential tournament that ever happened, only danced with Oberyn Martell, Jon Connington, Ser Arthur Dayne, and Ned Stark. All of these characters are MASSIVE in the main series. Two of them, Jon Connington and Ned, are POV characters. Ser Barristan who witnessed all of this is also a POV character. Ashara Dayne was the lady in waiting to Rhaegar’s wife. It’s all so masterfully interwoven.
Doesn't it seem more like Ashara is the heartbroken individual that relates to GRRM? She is the one depressed enough to (potentially) commit suicide after someone she presumably loves (Ned) has been married off to another woman. Ashara=GRRM
I don't doubt that Ned had sexist beliefs when he was younger (he still has them as an adult man), and I don't doubt that Ashara had feminist leanings (tho I wonder /how/ feminist seeing as the Daynes are Stony Dornish and thus more Andal than Rhoynish), but my problem with the idea that Ashara went from loving Ned to Brandon is that Brandon would probably be even more sexist than Ned and probs would have respected Ashara less than Ned did. Nothing that we know of Brandon implies that he's some great male feminist brimming with respect for Dornish ideas about gender equality and sexual liberation. He had to string Barbrey along into thinking he might choose her over Cat to get what he wanted, and he immediately assumed Lyanna was some damsel in distress, implying he either didn't know his willful sister /that/ well or he didn't care about her feelings, only House honor (read 'his own honor'). Isn't a much simpler explanation that Ashara was only interested in base attraction at Harrenhall and love wasn't a factor, and only Ned had feelings?
Ashara Dayne was such a beautiful and captivating woman that she could even turn Selmy into jelly. Selmy was older and therefore more mature to Ned, he was as honourable as he was + he trained with her brother Sir Arthur Dayne. Thus one presume that he would have more defences to her captivating beauty. Therefore if she could spellbound the man then imagine what she could do to the young wolf. But that's not all. Ashara's looks were very much Targaryan and she was also a Southern Lady. Now we all know that the Starks of that generation had a thing with Targaryen charm and viceversa. Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar and vice versa. There's nothing wrong in thinking that the same could have happened between Ned and Ashara. So why did Ashara committed a suicide? Imagine yourself living most of your life among the typical alpha man whose good with the sword etc. You go to KL to serve your lady and all you find is more people of that type + a mad king who beats his own wife and a prince whose obsessed with prophecy. Then one fine day, you go to a tourney and yet another alpha man introduces you to a totally different person ie a person whose shy, whose genuinely honourable and whose untainted by political games, greed or lust. How could she not fall in love with the guy? How could Ned, a man who lived his entire life either in Brandon S or Bob B's shadow not to fall in love to the charms of a beautiful Southern lady whom lets face it, was way out of his league? Ashara is now happy and pregnant then the world changes. Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna, Westeros goes to war, Ned is forced to marry another woman and the Daynes find themselves at war with the Starks. The constant worry and news coming from KL takes a toil over her and she loses the baby. Then her loved one marched South, he kills her brother and ends up bringing his ancestral sword back. That's just enough for this young woman to commit suicide
But Ashara Daynes suicide is given far too much importance in the plot for it to be of no importance. We get several different theories from different characters about her suicide. The amount of times it gets brought up clearly means that it was written like that on purpose to hint at some revelation that will come about later, I mean why else bring it up so many times? If you dig through it, you'll probably figure something out.
Wow. You make a theory seem inevitable just by sheer argument prowess and backing everything up with solid evidence. Subscribed. Keep up the amazing work!
Nah. from what I understood, Ned was just a bit shy and Brandon, the more confident of the two, went and talked to Ashara for Ned; getting her to go to him.
Has that ever worked? I know plenty of shy people who needed someone else to ask out their crush. EVERY SINGLE ONE, was let down gently. Sorry, Chads and Incels are a thing for a reason. :/ I'm not mocking, more like mourning... GRRRM writes realistic men/women relationships. He's celebrated for it. Sorry...
When would Ashara had time to be with Ned then leave him for Brandon? They all met for the first and only time at the Tourney of Harranhal, then Lyanna got "kidnapped" by Rhaegar, and Brandon rode south to King's Landing to demand her return. The simplest explanation is that Ned fancied Ashara but was too shy to approach her, so Brandon went to talk to her to get her to approach Ned, and convinced him that she's Dornish and to spend the night together is no dishonor to her people. They fell in love, but the war broke out and Ned had to marry Cat to cement the alliance in order to "rescue" his sister. After the Tower of Joy, he used returning Dawn to Starfall as an excuse to see her one last time to say goodbye, and the heartbreak of that and the loss of her child drove her to suicide. Edric Dayne only assumes Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara because no one knows about Lyanna being pregnant. Also the baby swap doesn't make sense either. Dany was an infant when Willem Darry snuck them off to Braavos, and I think Viserys would have noticed if his sister had been swapped out for another at some point. Lemon trees aren't exclusive to Dorne, so I think this is a pretty large intuitive leap that isn't supported by any other known facts.
I always assumed Brandon went over to talk to Ashara FOR Ned, sort of like a "Hey my bro really likes you"
Ned got her pregnant. She was the pregnant fisherman's daughter that he brought with him past the Vail.
Yeah, i read someone's thoughts on this, and their counter argument was basically "Brandon is an alpha male, and Ashara can't control her ovaries. " as if Brandon isn't capable of putting bros before hoes.
Dolorous Jaemi Lysa is a horribly unreliable narrator after Brandon hurt Littlefinger. We know from Cat's recollection that Brandon promised to not kill Littlefinger, took off armor to match Littlefinger who as a lower titled lordling didn't have full armor plating and repeatedly told him to yield after getting cut up so he wouldn't die. Hardly someone cruel.
thats what im saying. alot of this makes sense just not the jon being ashara and neds and the brandon being into ashara i think he read into that a bit to far. but the other parts of the idea make sense
@@chinaskibloodline Brandon cruel? Yeah right. It's lysa who's cruel. She loves nothing but little finger and his son.
I think you make a mistake by underplaying Ned bringing back Dawn to the Daynes. It's not merely an heirloom. It is a symbol of their house, part of their identity as a family. Ned could have taken it home to Winterfell as a prize, or he could have ransomed it back to the Daynes, and they'd have likely paid any price for it. Instead, he delivered it back personally, out of respect for Ser Arthur.
It's also literally one of a kind, made of metal more rare than Valyrian Steel.
@@gerardjagroo I agree with you. But I would point out that GRRM actually does sometimes sacrifice realistic interior thought to persist a mystery. How could Jon Snow's parentage stay secret when we spend so much time in book 1 in Ned's perspective?
@@lonnyworthamii9805 it seems like Ned dissociates a lot when it comes to things like that in the past, I think in the book once he saw Lyana he doesn’t remember anything else but howland coming to get him like a while later
Yh he gave the sword back bt not ser daynes bones. He goes there and then ashara dies mysteriously with her body never being found.... Mmm very logical
dawn is the only visibly unique "valerian steel" blade that predates valarya
Has GRRM ever contacted you? I imagine he'd be all like, "quit psychoanalyzing me bro" lol
+Elvin Khudiyev we heard you the first time
Chris Foye he had lunch with him and others fans. Preston mostly asked him about his older works to get indirectly info about GoT.
You would'nt like me when im psychoanalized
"Don't psychoanalyse me. You wouldn't like me when I'm psychoanalysed."
Reynik Namyrion Will❤️
Personally I believe the only part Brandon played was the introduction between the two. Ned being the "Quiet Wolf" was simply too shy to approach the beautiful Ashara Dayne. I think Ned and Ashara were in love and romantically involved during the tourney of Harrenhall. Ned being Ned, probably pledged to marry Ashara after the tourney (he was in love, possibly took her virginity and as a second son free to marry who he wished) but Robert's rebellion made that impossible. Honorable Ned felt compelled to honor the betrothal and marry Cat in Brandon's place after his death (plus the Riverlands/Tully alliance would be crucial to Robert's fledgling Rebellion). Upon learning of Ned's marriage to Cat, a heartbroken, and now dishonored, Ashara leapt to her death. I would think she'd have committed suicide long before that if she was truly in love with Brandon.
Jarrod Jemmott No I think if she did commit suicide it's because Ned took Jon from her.
But I believe Ashara is either Quaithe or Lemore. And we will see Ashara unite with Jon in the books
@Frank Castle The problem with that is Ashara had purple eyes and Tyrion met Lemore. There's no way he would have missed something like that.
wolverineminer
GRRM did not specify Lemore's eye color, even her hair color; he just had Tyrion describe Lemore as pretty even in her advanced years and her stretch marks in her belly which only means childbirth.
It is certainly plausible that Lemore = Ashara. Tyrion did not even meet Ashara Dayne in Harrenhal; he was a child at the Rock that time, and Tywin Lannister did not even attend the tourney.
Dokka Bae
It's more probable that Young Griff is related to Illyrio or Varys; maybe Illyrio's son or a descendant of House Blackfyre, and all Valyrians have purple, indigo, or lilac eyes. That's why Illyrio and Varys are supportive to Young Griff's cause.
Can't be Ned's son with Ashara. Both of them had dark hair.
@@wolverineminer Tyrion almost never mentions the eye colour of girls, no matter how catching, plus he was to busy staring at Lemore's tits.
I laughed at "Jaime, Cersei and Lancel; Osmund Kettleblack and Moonboy for all I know"
Connor Randles I did too lol
Yea that was great
Ned wanted a good girl, but he needed the bad poosey.
yep :D
💀💀😂😂
LMAO
😂
😂😂😂💀😷
It feels soo weird that you're talking about GRRMs life like he was an ASOIAF character
This. I'm all for tinfoil, and examining Gurm's past work is totally acceptable, but analyzing his love life is crossing into the domain of creepy obsession.
I'm not saying it's bad, it just feels weird
+Pablo Ruiz I'm with you. It just feels off, is all.
+Pablo Ruiz but it makes sense because writers sometimes write based on their own personal experiences and that definitely seems to be the case with GRRM
+rjz0rz isn't creepy obsession a good thing??
Came here wanting to hear about a got theory. Left thinking about my ex gf
lol same man same ... 😅😭
got theory? this is A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE DAMMIT!!
lol
Sigurd Torvaldsson 🤪🤣🤣🤣😂
😂😂😂
I think that Ashara only looked to Brandon because Ned was too shy ask her out, so Brandon would act the big brother and ask her out for him. It kinda fits him, because Ned would be red top to bottom, which Brandon may get a kick out of. And if there were a triangle, Ned would probably have some kinda scorn towards him, but Ned names his second son in honor of him. It makes sense for a triangle, but my initial thought were that Ned was too shy and Brandon helped him out.
@Ulises Leon why tho? I mean, "ah yes, I hold a grudge against you and you die due to some completely unrelated issue, but since we're family that anger/hatred becomes guilt because yes" sounds absolutely fucking retarded to me. Then again, I might just be some sort of unfeeling coldhearted bastard or something, but I really doubt that's the case
Ivan Bartrina Carreras Makes sense to me. Hating a family brother you used to love is a complex emotion. If they die before you reconcile it, I can imagine the regret would easily turn into guilt.
You took it to social security. Holy shit.
I'm calling the SS department to verify this theory.
Think it's more likely that Ashara and Ned were in love and remained in love, but Ned was forced by politics + Hoster Tully to marry Cat for the war. Ashara is clearly not dead, and most likely is Septa Lamore and Young Griff is probably the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, with Jon being her baby with Ned. Ned switching kids and the whole story is heavily foreshadowed and repeated (a trope of Martins) with what Jon forces Gilly to do.
Wow! Love it!
Did you see the Order of the Green Hand's video on this or did you come up with it yourself? I hadn't even considered the possibility outside of R+L=J until I saw their video.
This is what I hope happens!
Interesting observation.🤔
That could be the case.
I really hope Jon is from N + A, not R + L. It makes him more human, he really is just a bastard who achieved greatness, not some special promised hero with a Prince for a father. It also makes Ned more human; that even he lost his honour once.
+CrappyPunkRock182 He would still be a bastard, though. Lyanna and Rhaegar weren't married. He'd be no more special than Gendry, bastard son of a king. So regardless of his parentage, he's still just a bastard who achieved greatness.
+WitchVine Rhaegar and Lyanna could have got married, since Sansa married Ramsay at the same time she was still married to Tyrion. So these things work..
Sansa and Tyrion never consummated their marriage. Rhaegar and Elia did.
+CrappyPunkRock182 I agree with you.
If it is n+a =j he's probably more powerful lol
Don't quote me as I just watch videos, but the daynes have valerian blood or something, more,powerful than tygaryans
What...?
Brandon asked her if she will dance with his brother, because Ned was quiet and shy. She laughed and said yes, and that was it. Then they fell in love. That was it.
If you want love triangle, than take Ned, Ashara and Catelyn. There it is.
Really, from what we heard, Brandon talked with her once. Come on.
Amf I agree. I feel it's pretty evident Ned didn't love Catelyn until roughly 10 years into their marriage.
Jon looks like Ned. I mean Cat describes Brandon as being alot more handsome then Ned ever was and Ashara was one of the most beautiful women in Westeros at that time.
If anything while she was Elias companion she likely went to Gulltown cause Ned was in the Eyrie. If Brandon had something to do with her. It would have been during Brandons captivity and the mad King would have had Ashara killed.
We know Lord Borell told Davos the people of Sisterton saw Ned with a fishermans daughter who gave birth to Jon.
That's reeds' pov. We don't know what happened after that
Yes, I don't think she was in love with Brandon Stark...I mean there's practically nothing to say about them. We just know they dance together. That's all. And come on, Ned was quiet and shy, of course he was in love with her. If I remember well I think she had a girl unborn. I'm almost sure she was Ned's daughter. But I suppose those questions will never be answered as this is not what is interesting us about ASOIAF right now
Ned is a man of honor. He wouldn’t do Cat like that. And Ned and Cat wouldn’t have happened without the death of Brandon who was betrothed to Cat
True
This video was brilliant. Though some of your theories are definitely a stretch for me, out of everybody analyzing ASOIAF you're the one who seems to have the best thematic grasp on it. Even when I completely disagree with you I come away having learned something or having to at least reckon my currently held theory or belief. Sometimes, your interpretations of Martin's work are so well done that I not only redefine my understanding of the series but feel its full impact in a way my reading hadn't before.
You're a top quality critic.
I don't think Aero Hotah is in love with Arianne. I think he sees her as a daughter.
+McMagic15 That's certainly possible, but one would think the guy would have a libido. We shall see. I see Aero breaking his vow for Arianne.
+Preston Jacobs That's an interesting thought. I always saw him as a future kingsguard but I guess that would make him too white for an ASOIAF character. Breaking his vows would add in some grey. On another note, I wonder if the ax is proportional.
+McMagic15 Remember: dicks are swords and swords are dicks. He is the only guy in the story with a memorable Axe...
+Preston Jacobs nah. his love triangle obviously involves Doran Martel and his Axe wife.
+caio reis Sooo super wide and irregular shaped dick then?
I think Dany’s love for Drogo was Stockholm syndrome
I sincerely doubt it. Dany's very clearly stated to be attracted to "bad boys." That's the type she falls for and it definitely shows: she likes both Drogo and Daario, both vicious barbaric murderers whose sole raison d'être is fighting and killing. She lusts after Gerris Drinkwater, who Barristan sees as false coin the moment he spots him. Contrast to that she is not at all interested in more sound and quiet men like Hizdahr and Quentyn, even though Barristan says they'd probably make her happier. Dany wants passion, not love.
It actually results in a bit of hypocrisy on Dany's part when it comes to slavery. Her entire spiel is that she hates the slave trade and knows what it's like to be sold, yet she had no real issue with bringing slavery to the Seven Kingdoms when Drogo declared he'd burn and enslave the entire continent. Why? Because she loved him. This girl is willing to overlook one's bad side if she's in love with someone.
And of course she gives no end of grief to Hizdahr and his supposed lack of loyalty while she's constantly lusting after and defending a mercenary who has no reason at all to be loyal to her. So I'd say GRRM clearly wrote this as part of her faults and character arc for the series. Though I also think he'll cheat in a bit in that Jon Snow is both a quiet, kind-hearted man AND a bad boy. And if she falls for him like she does in the show... Yeah, me thinks it'll always remain one of Dany's flaws. Which makes sense, especially if we look at GRRM's love life.
@@heiveldboy Why no mention of Jorah? Poor guy...
@@krissuyx because Jorah is a creep
@@αστρον Jorah is definitely a creep. And has no chance
Read the books
It's actually kinda sad that no one on game of thrones actually married the ones they truly loved. Ned probably wanted Ashara. Cat was to be married to Brandon Stark. Robert had to settle for Cersei after his wife to be died giving birth to another guys kid. Sansa getting married to Tyrion and then Ramsey.
In the history of Westeros that is very much true, but people who marry for love always lead to trouble.
Duncan targaryen weds a commoner then results in a briefly rebellion with lord baratheon.
Sansa never marries Ramsay
Actually brandon never loved catelyn he was never into her .
It was arranged by his father --- conformed by lady dustin .
Jayne Pool marries Ramsey pretending to be Arya. Sansa is in the Vale still.
I personally like to believe that Brandon spoke with Ashara to get her to dance with Ned, Since he was seen as the 'quiet wolf', and Brandon was the polar opposite(Would also show a bit of brotherhood between them). I'd like to think that they fell in love, and when Brandon died, and he was forced to marry Cat out of honor, He brought the sword to Ashara to tell her that her brother was dead, and that he would need to fulfill his honor and marry someone else. All the while, Ashara only having a stillborn of there's to show for their relationship, All three causing her to kill herself. Losing Ned, her brother and their only possible child.
Preston, you are really amazing! The detailed research, general knowledge and passion you put in your work are amazing. Not to mention your complex parallels between ASOIAF and other GRRM's books or even general philosophy. It's a delight to watch your videos and I haven't seen anybody that compares to your work on ASOIAF. Keep up the exquisite work you do!
+Sergiu Petrisor Thanks a bunch, I really appreciate it.
+Preston Jacobs I got goosebumps seeing your reply :) . Thank you as well. As a side note, I'm used to checking my youtube page daily to see if you have posted something new, even though I'm a subscriber and therefore get notified when something new pops up. That's how eager I am to see your videos. Your work is truly astonishing.
Brandon was the wingman.
help his shy little brother get the girl
Lisa Tuttle sounds an awful lot like Lysa Tully. I'm not sure I'm the first to notice.
thats a thing, he mentioned it before
Hey hey haven't your guys played the telltale game of throne series? Gared and Duncan Tuttle...coincidence?
Brian Shaddock
you noticed before I did and I own a copy of windhaven lol
This makes me feel sorry for ol' GRRM.
I didn't expect this video to be such a feel trip. :/
seriously
You forgot poor Brienne. She's a heartbroken and she's a woman ;)
Keru Wolf but she is like a man
@@drexwiddle3476 still a woman tho. She is just masculine on some senses.
@@elfodelputoinfierno But she doesn't doesn't fit her gender role so she can't be the heart breaker
...and moonboy for all I know!
This video left me missing an ex boyfriend I don't even have
:(
hey girl, I'll be your ex boyfriend
these the typa comments I read comments for.
beautiful..
comment.
Maribelle Flint --- you're beautiful
are you from house Flint? you captivating dark hair and grey black eyes certainly fit a Northerner ;) (GOD! I suck at pick ups)
Awesome insight on Ned and Ashara's relationship as well as love in general in asoiaf. It's really interesting to see just how much of GRRM's personal life is implemented into his works. Thanks for creating another great video Preston!
I had my suspicion that GRRM's self, is Littlefinger, and after this video, it seems pretty obvious.
Littlefinger is GRRM's persona of revenge.
+zycane wow, never thought about it like that.
+mike mikeson Well if you watch his interviews he was clearly an introvert in his early years and thus probably not great with women. This can tend to lead to over-attachment when accepted which describes Martin's relationship with the redhead who started fucking his friend and thus his obsession with them, that can destroy a guys confidence and cause him to seek approval from women through whatever means necessary. I look at it like G.R.R.M is Annelyn and he's afraid The Meat Bringer is gonna come fuck his date. Weird to speak about one of my favorite authors like this.
Ned and Ashara were in love but Bardon died and Ned was duty bound to marry Cat. Thus being heart broken he could not be with his true love.
Just my theory
Posted that before finishing the video
sorry
Love triangles are a lot interesting.
But in medieval societies marrying for personal love have small value.
Bloodraven, Bittersteel and Shiera was another important love triangle or perhaps unrequited love situation. Either way the realm suffered. Still rewatching and rethinking! Thank you again for all your hard work!
I have to say, this is likely the most compelling and believable explanation of what their relationship was like that I've yet heard. Great job Preston.
I'm currently reading Dying of the Light. Gwen is a character, who chose to become the sex slave of two macho men on a dying planet over being with Dirk. To Dirk, life has no meaning without Gwen. Yeah, GRRM was bleeding all over this.
That parallels Jorah's first wife, the Hightower woman.
"It's almost as if our author is screwing with us." ~ Preston Jacobs and EVERYONE
I'd say Sansa and Joffrey doesn't quite count. She was in love with him and thought he loved her back. As soon as he killed her father, she knew he didn't love her, and she hated him.
+indiciaobscure There's a lot of them that don't really work. That's one of them, for sure. Also, I can't remember if he included Elia + Rhaegar + Lyanna, because that certainly is one.
Joffrey may have loved her in his own twisted way. He is a sociopath and he may have been expressing his love by hurting her. He is very possessive of her and almost wouldn't give her up. I wouldn't put it past that little shit that he did really love her.
Possessiveness and attraction to someone's beauty aren't love.
+WitchVine
I'm well aware of that. Joffrey may not be however.
Yeah, but things that are not love don't make exceptions for people who don't know what love is. Like, possessiveness doesn't suddenly become love just because someone thinks that's what love is.
Lisa Tuttle......Lysa Tully.
Oh.
OH.
oh.
😂😂😂 I know, I know, oh oh oh oh
"Oh," he thought. Then he began to scream.
"lol" said Patchface "lmao"
I love how the American Social Security system always finds its way into these videos.
I came here for a theory about Jon's real parentage I came out thinking about my miserable love life..
Pulled my car over to watch. I have been waiting for this! This is by far my favorite video that you have posted. Feminism, love, and the 64,000 dollar question of parentage. Thank you Preston.
+Lyrion Tannister thanks for looking out.
+Bastardosupremo it was en exaggeration. I was leaving a parking lot with a smoothie and decided not to pull out of the spot when the notification came through and just sat and watched the video. Ever had one of those days when good ASOIAF content is the perfect distraction?
Ashara loved Ned, leaves him for Brandon, gets pregnant, loses Brandon, loses the baby, Ned marries Cat so she loses him too, so she has nothing and kills herself. Makes total sense.
+Traye76 or ned takes aegon from joy to starfall and swaps for jon. ashara is with jon con and young griff posing as lemore
+D1str1ct I buy that more than I Preston's theory that she is Quaithe and that Dany is Lyanna's kid.
+Elvin Khudiyev I agree that quaithe is likely sheira, but I also think that if Ashara is alive is Lemore
you also forgoten to mention ned slew her brother, the sword of the morning
I guess that makes sense but it also feels like a big non-sequitor. GRRM just adds this story where Ned just takes this massive detour to Starfell after tearing down the tower of joy and his ex then kills herself.
Why would anyone write that if it didn't have any impact on the story?
One thing you're forgetting about Ned's story is that after the tourney he was seen with a beautiful woman while travelling to winterfell. Catelyn was still in the riverlands. If the love Ned had for Ashara was so unrequited, why would she travel with him? And people who saw the two said that they were very much in love....
Yanaj005 because their love wasn't unrequited - more than a year passes between Tournament and Brandon's supposed wedding to Catelyn and it is possible the two had a relationship when Jon was in Vale and Ashara was in Dragonstone.
Woohyun Fan Exactly! That is what people skip over!
This video hits right in the feels. Part of growing up is realising that we create an image in our minds about people and this almost always contradicts reality.
Loving the animations! Great video as always - I love it when you analyse GRRM's life and other works, since so few people look to them.
I think you've gotten the love Triangle wrong. Catelyn, Ned and Ashara are more likely. Ned loved Ashara, would have married her perhaps, but when Brandon died Stark honor, and Roberts alliance came first. So he left Ashara for Cat.
Dang Preston, your little birds and Weirwood net have expanded past the pages of writer, and into his mind and life.
the feeling of being betrayed sucks. I feel for Martin on this big time.
It's his own fault. He's been with 1st generation feminists his whole life. They don't value monogamy very much.
Hmm... Perhaps Neds extreme sense of duty started when he decided to leave Ashara. To justify that decision he needed to value duty highly, even if the real reason was that he didn't have the courage to disappoint his family and depart from what was expected of him. The rest of the theory is not convincing me - I still believe that R+L=J is more probable.
I totally agree.
But he is still undutiful in the first book. Sometimes he does thigs that is dishonorable. He is just a man. He cant be 100% honourable and as the series has shown honour is subjective.
Ned is more human, Brandon is human they are just men who make mistakes, dishonorable things in a young age and foolish decision.
soyon manlai
Ned is the Beacon of honour.
SmultronsyltNatha yes Jon is real Aegon Tagarean as before dying, Lynaa told Ned that "His" name is Aegon...here she clearly said "His name" it means baby is male not girl so no chance of Dany
The way I see it happening based on what we know of each character is that Ned did love Ashara and Ashara loved Ned back. They had sex at the Tourney and Ashara was pregnant with their child. But that child is not Jon Snow, R+L=J this cannot be denied.Ned on his Honor too the promise of his sister claims the child as his own as she dies in her bed of blood. He takes Dawn the Sword of Arthur Dayne who he and Howland slew at the Tower of Joy to Starfall to return it, but he also arrives with Jon. Who he claims as his own, as was promised. Ashara, loving Ned, would be devastated to know that their child had been Stillborn, and yet here he is showing up to her place with a "bastard boy" and the Sword of her beloved Brother who he admits to killing in battle.The triple wammy of having a stillborn child of the man you love, that same man having another child, and the news that your Older brothr was killed by this man, would drive any sane person to suicide.
denied
+DeadandPaid1996 What was denied? I'm curious
Yes that's make sense. Only problem is the way they never found her body
Hmmmm
+Heartspade Ace sometimes people who jump off a tower are just never found you know...
Thumbs up. I love book reviews that talk about the parallels with the authors life. No other GoT videos are talking about this angle.
It wasn't just a sword. It was the ancestral greatsword of House Dayne, Dawn. A one of a kind relic possibly forged from a falling star, thousands of years ago!
+Simon Westerlind Japp, så sant. Antar att det är en detalj som aldrig någonsin har en chans att nämnas i serien nu i s6 trots att Dayne ska vara med några minuter :(
I like stories where the person with the unrequited love also has someone with unrequited love for them.
Preston, I think you may be right about the baby swap. I think Ned took Lyanna's baby to Ashara and convinced her to take Lyanna's son to keep this child safe. He, in exchange took his real son with Ashara, Jon, home with him to Caitlyn. Doesn't this make more sense to the entire story?
I think this new blonde hair, handsome male character who come into GOT cast in season 7 may be Lyanna's son with Rhaegar, the Prince that was Promised?!
Your thoughts?
Oof
Would have been better than what we got
Naming Lysa Tully after Lisa Tuttle is such a vicious burn... George must have felt super upset about their break up.
You're missing the fact that Ned would have absolutely hated Brandon after this happens. He doesn't hate Brandon or have anger at all. He basically went t war from Brandon and even named a child after him. I doubt he'd do that if Bran stole Ned's love.
U really think he would hate him? I don’t think it hate fits Ned personality, anger yes but not hating his Brother. They were Young and young people make mistakes. He couldn‘t hold a grudge for his Older brother just for a possible love Affair (between brandon and ashara) and still years After his death
The impression I got was Cat named Bran. Bran is her favorite. (supposedly, she forgets Bran and Rickon exist when Robb is telling her to go home)
What if something worse happened than Ned merely discovering that he couldn't be together with Ashara?
Think about it: he killed her brother, personally, and did not even bring his body back (might it have been because a rotting body would've upset a newborn child? Probably). As well, he supported Robert in the Rebellion, which ended with the death of Rhaegar and Ellia Martell, people that Ashara probably knew well AND may have even been friends with. So already, Ned has two things going against him for Ashara to look at him and rekindle that desire. It also doesn't help that Brandon was killed by Aerys, so if she truly loved Brandon as you say she did, then her real love already died. That's an immediate three strikes against Ned: her lover died, her friends died, and Ned killed her brother.
So when he comes to see her with her brother's sword (and perhaps a child), she would rightfully be furious and depressed. Perhaps Ned, in futility, tried to reassure her and profess his own love for her, which would end exactly as you would imagine it would. Then Ashara, probably curious at this point as to why he's carrying a child around, would be told the truth - after all, Ned loved her, and when you love someone, you instinctively trust them, especially if you are more inexperienced with love (which I presume Ned would be). More likely than not, Ashara discovered that R+L=? (could be J or D, doesn't matter at this point).
She's in grief, furious; her brother's killer is standing before her, and now he has admitted to committing a CRIME under King Robert's nose? Remember: Ned is keeping a Targaryen child alive in secret - not just any child, but the TRUE heir to the Iron Throne. Imagine Robert's fury if he knew Ned betrayed him like this. There would be blood, another war against the North between the Baratheons and Lannisters, fighting the Riverlands and the North. All the traitors turning on each other, while Dorne watches in a serene state of schadenfreud? Ashara enacting revenge against Ned for dishonouring her and killing her friends and brother? We don't know much about her, so as the song goes, "you may be wrong for all I know, but you may be right", but I would bet Ashara had a sickly thought of revealing this secret to Robert.
Ned, perhaps in his folly, realizes what he's done. He swore a promise to his sister, most likely to protect her child, and now he has single-handily put this child in the greatest path of harm. Even if Robert doesn't kill him in yet another war for the crown, he would spend the entirety of his life in Court, being manipulated by the Council and other power-hungry people for their own gains, always inches away from another blade. His life would forever be in peril, and Ned would be helpless to protect him, completely contrary to what he promised.
Ashara's death is indeed surrounded in mystery. We know nothing about her child, or her love affairs, or even if she even is dead. Only two people would know for sure: one of the elder Daynes... and Ned. But the Daynes love Ned; hell, Edric was named after Ned and nursed by the same woman as Jon Snow was. Perhaps Ned had done the best he could for the Daynes, returning Dawn and helping the family in their time of grief. Or maybe... Ned hid something else from them? Ned had to protect his sister's child; he told the wrong woman, and now she threatened to tear the realm apart again in the name of revenge. And where love is the death of duty, Ned had many of them to honour.
MY BIG NUTTY THEORY IS THIS: Ned killed Ashara by throwing her out of the tower and lied to the Daynes, hell EVERYONE, about it.
No currently-surviving Daynes seem to know, or believe, that Ned was a bad person; cold and distant, maybe, but he was apparently nice to them while he was down there. And killing her would explain his grief even more profoundly than by merely lying about Lyanna's child; where merely keeping her child alive would be burdensome and taxing, knowing that he had to take the life of his love in order to protect this child's identity - for the realm and for his sister's promise - that would be maddening. Perhaps it was Ned who orchestrated having Dany raised in Dorne while Jon came back with him to Winterfell, with the support of the Daynes (who believe him innocent); perhaps he wanted Jon sent to the wall not only to protect him, but to keep him away so he doesn't have to think again of Ashara and what he had done. It would also explain why Ned goes through so much pain to never discuss this secret with anyone else, since the last person he did discuss it with was killed BY HIS OWN HAND. And what a fitting way to be punished by the Old Gods, having your own son thrown from a tower in your castle?
Your thoughts?
Convincing argument.
I don't think ned killed her, she seems to be the one who informed ned about the location of his sister, if she did leave ned for his handsome brother, why would ned build a statue of him in the crypts and him his second son brandon?
Ned sworn a promise to his sister about protecting the child, while wylla was there she must have convinced ned to go starfall for help?
Damn dude. This is one of your really great standalones. Lot of great analysis in here. Thanks as always!
We have been going along all this time thinking of Ned as this near perfect honorable man. We know he was deeply troubled about Jon and what happened back then. I bet GRRM is going to throw us all for a loop when it's revealed what really happened. Maybe Ned wasn't as perfect as we are led to believe.
Wow, this is one good youtube clip... good work man!
Preston please impersonate Ned more often that's honestly made my day XD
Best video, Preson. Great visuals, good solid explanation, abundant clarity of source material and speculation. Overall terrific.
Just rewatched this, and I'm once again amazed at Preston's ability to come up with well-construed examples of overanalyzing. He sets up Brandon Stark as the father of Ashara's child based only on the fact that _he once talked to her on his brother's behalf_ (and on the fact that Selmy only mentions a Stark instead of specifically Ned Stark). That's laughably flimsy! He's trying to build an Ashara-Brandon-Ned love triangle, even though it's painfully obvious that there's another love triangle involving that relationship: Ashara-Ned-Catelyn. Throwing in Brandon Stark only complicates things needlessly, as his potential relationship to Ashara Dayne is utterly irrelevant to the story.
Occam's razor applied to the whole mess yields the following:
- Ned and Ashara hooked up at Harrenhall, she ended up pregnant.
- Robert's Rebellion came into play, Ned was forced to marry Catelyn Tully out of convenience.
- At the end of the rebellion Ned kills Ashara's brother, takes his sword, finds his Lyanna's orphaned lovechild. he goes to Starfall with it, because he certainly can't take the kid to King's Landing just like that.
- At Starfall, Ashara deals with grief caused by her possibly stillborn child (and Arthur's death, maybe Ned's marriage). She either kills herself, or she goes to Essos and raises the kid to become faux-Aegon Targaryen - ultimately, it does not matter. What _does_ matter is that Ned can now pretend he brought the newborn from Starfall, not from the Tower of Joy. He lets people believe the kid's mother was Wylla the wet nurse, because he feels it would be disrespectful to bring Ashara Dayne and her child (both of whom may or may not be dead) into the conspiracy relating specifically to R+L=J.
- Whether Ned and Ashara actually had a child together is completely irrelevant to the R+L=J issue, on which the metaplot appears to be hinged. Ditto for the ultimate fate of Ashara and her child.
SockPuppet80 I completely agree with you on this
Honestly man, you're an absolute genius
Damn, great video essay!
I didn't know this about George's past love life. Great work.
I've thought that Septa Lemore was Ashara Dayne for a long time.
Still, a lot of what you talk about here is conjecture. We know Ned was shy as a youth, so it's possible his brother simply spoke to Ashara as a way to break the ice for him. Even assuming that a love triangle is somehow necessary in this case, we already have a love triangle formed by Ned, Ashara, and Catelyn. Yes, the man is the heartbreaker in this case, but he certainly isn't the first; just look at how often Robert cheats on Cersei, and how devoted his heart remains to Lyanna. And, as you yourself pointed out, Stannis is the heartbreaker between his wife and Melisandre. Renly is just a heartbreaker all around. Gee, something about those Baratheon men, eh? Then of course Rhaegar is a heartbreaker between Elia and Lyanna. And true, none of these men are POV characters, but let's remember that Martin is not restrictive in his POVs; he portrays all manner of lifestyles and worldviews in his POV characters, so why should this be an exception? In short, I suppose it's possible that Ashara had interest in two Stark men, but I don't think it's necessarily some sort of requirement to be fulfilled. Tyrion is in a sense the heartbreaker between Sansa and Shae, as another example.
For a while there I thought perhaps Aegon is secretly Ashara's child (which would fit nicely with her being Septa Lemore) but that wouldn't really fit with the Blackfyre theory, which personally I think is a fairly strong theory so... it's a tough call what the actual deal is with Ashara's pregnancy.
But let's assume she's alive. Why fake her own death? Either she's involved in some sort of conspiracy (Blackfyre?) or she's running from something.
And the latter option introduces still another possibility: perhaps her child was not a Stark child, but a Targaryen child. We know that the Mad King took liberties with the women of the Red Keep. If he was bold enough to take such liberties with the wife of his own Hand, Joanna Lannister, as some claim, he would be even moreso with his Daughter-in-Law's ladies-in-waiting, especially considering Ashara's purported beauty. If she had a Targaryen child, that would give Ned excellent motivation to go and see her, to urge her in person to flee now that Robert Baratheon's ascension to the throne is imminent and all Targaryens and Targaryen loyalists are in grave danger. If that is the case, the idea that Aegon is actually her child becomes even stronger, although again it throws a wrench into the Blackfyre theory. Another problem with this theory is that Jon Connington knows her and would recognize her; if Aegon is her child, and if she is hiding as Septa Lemore, what are the odds he wouldn't have put two and two together?
Either way, the question of why she disappeared is extremely important, and I think it's what's really at the crux of her story. Why she ran is probably the key to finding out what really happened to her leading up to her disappearance.
I've also considered the possibility that the Darkstar's behavior may have something to do with Ashara. He's too old to be her child, admittedly, but all the same he *is* a Dayne and his actions *are* a bit bizarre. If there is a connection here, I can't find it, but on the other hand there is clearly a lot going on under the surface with the Dayne family. I'm not sure what to make of it.
Or, who knows. Maybe she really did just kill herself. There's certainly enough tragedy going on in her story that it's believable.
Darkstars bizzare actions break up the "alliance" between Dorne and the Iron Throne and almost forced Dorne into war with the Lannisters, this plays right into Aegons hands.
Ognjen Garić True enough, although if Arianne's plan had succeeded they would have gone to war with the Lannisters anyway... albeit with the goal of merely installing a different Lannister in power, soooo fair point.
+Elizabeth Wear Yes, but if Ariannes plan succeded, then Dorne and Aegon would be in conflict too, one would fight for Myrcella, one for, well Aegon, maybe thats why Darkstar wanted Myrcella dead, that would make it seem as if Darkstar told Doran, so he would have a chance to pull off his scheme, but I personaly belive that no one of Ariannes crew told him, but instead one of his spies, Arianne was not careful enough
Ognjen Garić Very well put. It definitely seems as though the Daynes and the Martells are not really on the same page here; killing Myrcella is not a move that Doran would agree with, at least not at that point in time. But that being the case, it is a mystery *why* the Martells and Daynes wouldn't be on the same page. The Martells have a long history of Targaryen loyalty; if the Daynes intend a Targaryen return, why not work with the Martells in a more direct way? Instead what we're seeing is two different houses trying to achieve the same goal in two different ways (assuming the Daynes have been behind Aegon all along). Wouldn't it be more advantageous to work together? Seems like a liability not to. What do you think?
+Elizabeth Wear Maybe Doran isn't as loyal as he pretends to be. You can watch the Dornish masterplan
Man you are getting so good with this i cant belive it... this is one of the best argumented videos about ASoIF ever, keep up the great work !
Perhaps its weirder than that.
Perhaps Ned and Ashara were in love and even got married but then Ned had to marry Cat and so Ned and Ashara separated with no one the wiser that they were lawfully wed. This would be an interesting twist on the trope. Ned has his heart broken because he has to marry a woman he does not love and leave the woman he does love. It might even be Ashars idea. Ned would not want to do it because it is not honorable but is convinced to do it for the good of the realm. this would also draw a parallel with his conversation with Varys and why Ned refuses to dishonor himself again for the good of the realm.
No way Ned would even think of abandoning Cat for Ashara, even if I believe he loved her. He would never leave Cat after marrying her and her being pregnant with his son.
Hmm, while I respect your opinion and of course the work you put into formulating it into your video, I really have to disagree with you on this one. I think its much simpler. I think Ned and Ashara did fall in love at the Tourney but Brandon wasn't a third wheel so to speak. I think he saw how badly Ned wanted to meet the open and confident Ashara, and knowing his brother's shy and quiet nature, took it upon himself to get the two to meet. I think there was a love affair and likely even plans to marry before the rebellion. Then everything changed. Brandon died and Ned was obligated to marry Cat. He did so, fought the war, went to the TOJ to find his sister, took the baby that I believe to be Jon, went to Starfall where Ashara was pregant with their child, told her of her brother's death and his unplanned union with Cat in his dead brother's stead. She was overcome with grief of all she had lost, perhaps lost the baby and jumped to her death. Now, there is another theory I've heard, and that is that Allyria Dayne may be Ashara's daughter but raised as a sister to keep family pride maybe or protect the girl's image. I haven't done any calculating to see if that is possible but if it is than she would be Ned's daughter and that could be why the family still thinks highly of Ned. They know the cicumstances aren't his fault and that he truly loved Ashara and meant to be with her. I know my theory still has unanswered questions but in truth all theories will unless George decides to come right out and write a prequel book or set of books. (which would be freaking amazing) SPOILER ALERT - But as we know, at least a bit of the TOJ scene will be shared this season so lots of questions should be answered. Maybe I'll be wrong or maybe you'll have to make a video fixing your errors ;) lol
this is indeed a lot simpler, just as sound a theory. To be honest I thought about halfway through the video it might be possible that Ned got angry at Ashara for not wanting to run away with him and she ended up falling from the Tower. But that seems like a stretch. I would be a hell of a twist!!
+Enquisidour Nah man that's just too outside of Ned's character
+EcoCrat That's why I got so excited about the idea. but then he mention Ned Dayne and I realized he definitely wasn't going there lol
+SciFi FantasyGirl I partially agree with you, and I think that Ned may have not been the honour first character we know now, back around the beginning of the war. I think you should go check out another theory channel I found called IdeasOfIceAndFire. He lays out his theory about Jon's parentage (that R+L doesn't equal J) really well, and you'll see a bunch of stuff that comes together and explains a lot
"The things I do for love". An impulse to keep a secret?
The one problem I have with Brandon and Ashara been Jon's parents. Is that why would Eddard call him his bastard? He had too much honor and it goes against his character to do something like that...
+DarkFox2071 If Jon was legitimately Brandon and Ashara's son, it means he would be the heir to Winterfell and possibly Starfall. The Stark-Tully alliance, though, was founded on the promise of a Stark-Tully heir. Even an illegitimate Jon would threaten Robb's claim and who knows about the unknown intricacies of Dornish Law. B+A=J threatens the realm and would need to be hidden.
+Preston Jacobs i wonder if it wasn't the mad king who actually dishonoured her at the tourney...
+Preston Jacobs But Dornish law doesn't apply in non-Dorne areas, so wouldn't it be.. beneficial to the Stark genes and welfare if Jon would be allowed to be Lord of Starfall? With there being a strong alliance between the North and the South?
+Preston Jacobs I think that B+A=J and R+L=D works because it mirrors what happens with Mance's son and Gilly's at the wall. Ned probably switches them to keep Dany safe, and that's why Ashara kills herself.
+daddyleon Jon wouldn't have been next in line at Starfall if B+A=J. Preston says "possibly heir to Starfall" which means that he might have ended up as heir to Starfall if this, this and this happened. The chances of Jon ending up as Lord of Starfall would be pretty slim, but Preston thinks that, that slim chance is part of the reason that Jon was removed from that equation. =)
Preston, this video is fantastic. Such a good study of love and humans
well played again sir, probably your best video so far I would say. You deserve all the likes and subs.
The truth is Ned and Ashara loved each other but Ned had to marry cat due to the death of his brother and the war . When Ned went to Satrfell to tell her what happened she committed suicide .As for the child we know too little.
You don't think Ashara and Ned not being able to be together, without Brandon in the mix, isn't already tragic? You don't think her giving a child to go live with Cat without her isn't a heartbreaking moment? They might still love each other, but haven't been together for all the years after he left Starfall. The triangle could easily be Ned, Ashara and Barristan Selmy/Ned, Ashara and Cat, but not Brandon. I think that still fits.
Change up:Ned left pregnant Ashara, mother of Jon he had married before a weirwood BECAUSE Hoster Tully forced Ned to marry catelyn and Jon Arryn to marry lysa. This he required for men of river lands to join Robert. So upset was the Blackfish, that at that wedding feast he renounced his house! After TOJ, Ned took Rhaegar and Lyannas baby, Aegon / young Griff to Ashara and Jon their child, the only true born Stark to winterfell. Ashara cooks up the suicide story and becomes septer Lamore, disappears, Aegon and connington with her. Martin asks, "was her body ever found"?. No. FURTHER. Beware the mummers dragon. Varys is the mummer, raised in a theater troop. Danyerys is Not who she has been led to believe. SHE in fact is a child who was raised in a large stone house with a red door near lemon trees. Varys has switched babies before, but this time the child is the one given the false story of who she is. Varys will use Dany to take over westeros then expose himself as the last surviving child of royal house?(can't remember) that was taken to essos, and Dany as low born, he takes the cake.
Well it's a four way really, Ned, Cat, older Stark guy, and Ashara. Maybe Ned was forced to marry Cat and leave Ashara, because he needed Tully's forces and Hoster Tully had his mind set on Cat marrying a Stark. Maybe this is some of the reason the Black Fish is the Black Fish, partly.
You are more right about these theories than you think you are........or, you are being modest. By delving into the abyss that is GRRM you can make sense out of his stories. You are the best man! I love the people that come on here, support you, and trash you. They are just angry they can't comprehend your knowledge.
12:53 "Just as Jon chose duty over love"
This is a 2016 video. Dude predicted the tv show ending.
I really loved your video, what a good talk you gave us i apreciated a lot for sharing this with us.
I've rewatched this video multiple times over the years and here is what I got:
Brandon, and the whole "looked to Stark" thing, are red herrings. The actual person whom Ashara fell in love is..... Howland Reed. Preston even mentions in the video how one of GRRM's girlfriends left him for his best friend. For Ned, that wouldn't be Brandon. It would be Howland. Howland being Ashara's lover also explains a lot of other things. Like the fact that despite being such a good friend to Ned and saving his life, the two apparently never have contact. When he speaks to Bran about Howland he gets very sad and stops talking. Also, it's Jojen who tells Bran about the story of the Tourney at Harrenhal. Apparently Jojen's heard this story dozens of times and is surprised that Ned never told it to his children. Makes a lot of sense if Ashara is Jojen's mother that he would have been told the story of how their parents met, meanwhile for Ned it's a painful memory of a lost love. Finally, Preston asks what that request was that Ned felt obligated to fulfill for Ashara. I think it was to bring her to the Neck so she could be with Howland. A request he couldn't deny, especially after Howland had just saved his life at the Tower of Joy. Maybe it was Howland who asked him to go to Starfall and talk with Ashara in the first place.
I'll admit, there are still some missing pieces to the puzzle but I'm pretty confident in the overall picture. Ashara is Howland Reeds wife and the mystery child that was born to her is Meera Reed.
I kind of like this, though i think it’s clear that Ned doesn’t talk about harrenhal because he forbid any talk of Ashara in the castle
I thought this was ridiculous when you said Howland, but it got more and more compelling as an idea the more you went on.
@@Tuosma haha thanks. I actually got the idea from another ASOIAF commentator and I thought it made a lot of sense (definitely more than her being Septa Lemore or Quaithe).
There's also some indication that Meera, not Jojen is Howland's heir. She is introduced first at Winterfell and Jojen is merely referred to has her brother. This could be a hint of Dornish influence within House Reed.
@@carlrood4457 Excellent point!
1:47 Top notch animations there Preston! 😂 Seriously though, another great video! You're definitely the best GoT/ASOIAF UA-camr!!
This is such a complex, genius analysis. Kudos to you, for really
This would also explain Ned’s bitterness that the lordship of Winterfell and marriage to Catelyn was all meant for Brandon.
The intro music: So. Perfect. Like a cross between the intro to a Spanish soap opera set in ancient times and a break in between scenes of a middle eastern porno.
I cracked a smile when you put "Jaime cersei Lancel kettleburn or moonboy for all I know" that was funny
Well to me the basic story seems straight forward.
Ashara and Ned were in love and possibly promised each other to marry. Roberts rebellion happens and now with Brandon's death Ned has to marry Cat. In addition he has Lyanna's newborn son with him. You can't tell a baby's hari or eye color after they are born, you have to wait for a bit. He goes to starfall and maybe even asks Ashara to claim the son is hers and either Brandons (not sure how the timeline works out)or Neds because he can't explain Valerian features otherwise. Turns out the Baby has Stark features instead of Valyrian features so he leaves and takes Jon as his son. Ashara then commits suicide out of grief. Possible major spat with Ashara occurs in between. The pregnancy may also have been fake entirely in preparation for claiming Jon as her son.
Preston, I've been watching a lot of your videos. thank you for all you do. you make the world a better place
I don’t agree with most of this, but it’s my opinion. Ned was crushing on Ashara; they were not in love. A sword is easier to carry than a body and Dawn isn’t just any sword. He was probably sad for her, but at that point he was married and I doubt he broke those vows.
Jon Connington and Rhaegar lol I wasn't expecting that one at all
I didn't catch the hints either during my reads, but later stumbled across the evidence.
i'm re-reading asoiaf so i'll have that one in mind :)
Preston, I disagree with your idea that the women characters can’t be heartbroken sad sacks. Brienne is a heartbroken sad sack, she loved Renly but he never reciprocated. Arya loves Gendry but never gets him. Cat and Lady Dustin both loved Brandon but never got him. Sansa loved Loras but never got him. Cersei loved Rhaegar but never got him. Lysa loved Littlefinger but he never reciprocated. Asha never gets to be with any of the men she has feelings for. Selyse is neglected by her husband, who spends all of his time with another woman. Irri and Jhiqui fight over Rakharo, one of them is gonna end up heartbroken. Elia loved Rhaegar but he left her for Lyanna. There is an equal, parallel pantheon of heartbroken, sad sack women. And Rhaegar, a man, broke Jon Connington’s heart by not reciprocating his feelings
This is a fair point
Boy can George spin a yarn. Ashara Dayne, at the most consequential tournament that ever happened, only danced with Oberyn Martell, Jon Connington, Ser Arthur Dayne, and Ned Stark. All of these characters are MASSIVE in the main series. Two of them, Jon Connington and Ned, are POV characters. Ser Barristan who witnessed all of this is also a POV character. Ashara Dayne was the lady in waiting to Rhaegar’s wife. It’s all so masterfully interwoven.
Doesn't it seem more like Ashara is the heartbroken individual that relates to GRRM? She is the one depressed enough to (potentially) commit suicide after someone she presumably loves (Ned) has been married off to another woman. Ashara=GRRM
hmmm
I don't doubt that Ned had sexist beliefs when he was younger (he still has them as an adult man), and I don't doubt that Ashara had feminist leanings (tho I wonder /how/ feminist seeing as the Daynes are Stony Dornish and thus more Andal than Rhoynish), but my problem with the idea that Ashara went from loving Ned to Brandon is that Brandon would probably be even more sexist than Ned and probs would have respected Ashara less than Ned did. Nothing that we know of Brandon implies that he's some great male feminist brimming with respect for Dornish ideas about gender equality and sexual liberation. He had to string Barbrey along into thinking he might choose her over Cat to get what he wanted, and he immediately assumed Lyanna was some damsel in distress, implying he either didn't know his willful sister /that/ well or he didn't care about her feelings, only House honor (read 'his own honor'). Isn't a much simpler explanation that Ashara was only interested in base attraction at Harrenhall and love wasn't a factor, and only Ned had feelings?
Ashara Dayne was such a beautiful and captivating woman that she could even turn Selmy into jelly. Selmy was older and therefore more mature to Ned, he was as honourable as he was + he trained with her brother Sir Arthur Dayne. Thus one presume that he would have more defences to her captivating beauty. Therefore if she could spellbound the man then imagine what she could do to the young wolf.
But that's not all. Ashara's looks were very much Targaryan and she was also a Southern Lady. Now we all know that the Starks of that generation had a thing with Targaryen charm and viceversa. Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar and vice versa. There's nothing wrong in thinking that the same could have happened between Ned and Ashara.
So why did Ashara committed a suicide? Imagine yourself living most of your life among the typical alpha man whose good with the sword etc. You go to KL to serve your lady and all you find is more people of that type + a mad king who beats his own wife and a prince whose obsessed with prophecy. Then one fine day, you go to a tourney and yet another alpha man introduces you to a totally different person ie a person whose shy, whose genuinely honourable and whose untainted by political games, greed or lust. How could she not fall in love with the guy? How could Ned, a man who lived his entire life either in Brandon S or Bob B's shadow not to fall in love to the charms of a beautiful Southern lady whom lets face it, was way out of his league?
Ashara is now happy and pregnant then the world changes. Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna, Westeros goes to war, Ned is forced to marry another woman and the Daynes find themselves at war with the Starks. The constant worry and news coming from KL takes a toil over her and she loses the baby. Then her loved one marched South, he kills her brother and ends up bringing his ancestral sword back. That's just enough for this young woman to commit suicide
But Ashara Daynes suicide is given far too much importance in the plot for it to be of no importance. We get several different theories from different characters about her suicide. The amount of times it gets brought up clearly means that it was written like that on purpose to hint at some revelation that will come about later, I mean why else bring it up so many times? If you dig through it, you'll probably figure something out.
the last time i came this early, adwd just came out
+Dennis Ren Lel
Wow. You make a theory seem inevitable just by sheer argument prowess and backing everything up with solid evidence. Subscribed. Keep up the amazing work!
that was an awesome video. Not only did you touch on why the author does what he does, but you also threw In like, A Life Lesson lol
Nah. from what I understood, Ned was just a bit shy and Brandon, the more confident of the two, went and talked to Ashara for Ned; getting her to go to him.
Has that ever worked? I know plenty of shy people who needed someone else to ask out their crush. EVERY SINGLE ONE, was let down gently. Sorry, Chads and Incels are a thing for a reason. :/
I'm not mocking, more like mourning... GRRRM writes realistic men/women relationships. He's celebrated for it. Sorry...
It said Brandon talked on behalf of his brother bc ned was too shy to speak for himself
Never thought I'd ever know this much about GRRM's love life, but Preston makes me rethink a lot of things.
When would Ashara had time to be with Ned then leave him for Brandon? They all met for the first and only time at the Tourney of Harranhal, then Lyanna got "kidnapped" by Rhaegar, and Brandon rode south to King's Landing to demand her return.
The simplest explanation is that Ned fancied Ashara but was too shy to approach her, so Brandon went to talk to her to get her to approach Ned, and convinced him that she's Dornish and to spend the night together is no dishonor to her people. They fell in love, but the war broke out and Ned had to marry Cat to cement the alliance in order to "rescue" his sister. After the Tower of Joy, he used returning Dawn to Starfall as an excuse to see her one last time to say goodbye, and the heartbreak of that and the loss of her child drove her to suicide. Edric Dayne only assumes Jon is the son of Ned and Ashara because no one knows about Lyanna being pregnant.
Also the baby swap doesn't make sense either. Dany was an infant when Willem Darry snuck them off to Braavos, and I think Viserys would have noticed if his sister had been swapped out for another at some point. Lemon trees aren't exclusive to Dorne, so I think this is a pretty large intuitive leap that isn't supported by any other known facts.
***** dead baby + true love marrying someone else and leaving forever would send anyone off the ledge.
***** I think that's too small a detail to get hung up on, just like the lemon trees.
Hahaha I love the intro music, so appropriate for the subject...another amazing video, thank you so much