How Pokémon and Other RPGs Creatively Implement Random Encounters
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- Опубліковано 29 чер 2024
- Random encounters don't get a lot of love these days and are often instantly seen as outdated. Can they still be viable if used effectively though? In this video I make my case for why I think they can be.
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Intro Songs
Lufia 2 - The Earth
Chinsaku - Saku
Music by Chinsaku - Saku - thmatc.co/?l=B5D7FC5B
Channel Intro
Richie Branson - Jazzy Nights
Intermission Song
Chinsaku - Hidden Leaf
Music by Chinsaku - Hidden Leaf - thmatc.co/?l=B52EE42F
Outro Songs
Lofi Lia - Lake Pokemon lofi remix
• Pokémon Diamond & Pear...
Chinsaku - Butterfly
Music by Chinsaku - Butterfly - thmatc.co/?l=E6E9933D
00:00 - 02:05 Opening Thoughts
02:05 - 02:44 Channel Intro
02:44 - 06:32 Appropriate Places to Have Random Encounters
06:32 - 07:47 How Random Encounters Factor Into Resource Management
07:47 - 08:09 Intermission
08:09 - 12:23 Ways To Avoid or Manipulate Encounters
12:23 - 13:40 Closing Thoughts
13:40 - 15:34 Outro
15:34 - 17:43 Zelda's Quest
#pokemon #finalfantasy #jrpg - Ігри
Zelda 2 had a very unique way of handling random encounters.
If Link travels the overworld by staying on the trail, there are no random encounters.
If he ventures away from the trails, moving monster icons spawn on the screen and IF Link and the monster icon come into contact, you initiate a battle.
Not only can you avoid RE staying on a trail, even off-trail you have a fair chance to avoid the enemies.
Final fantasy 8 also did this. It was nice
If they appear on the overworld and can be avoided then they're not random encounters. That's kinda the definition.
@@Shenaldrac Tbf, they're really hard to avoid
Additionally, if a wandering monster encounter touches you while you are on a road tile, no actual monsters will appear (presumably because road tiles don't have a specific battle map associated with them). Fairies will though.
One of the best ways to make random encounters interesting is to have more than just fights. Maybe you can stumble upon friendly NPCs, like rare shopkeepers. Or have random events occur. Or maybe some "monsters" aren't always aggro (MegaTen games occasionally do this). Random encounters should be *interesting opportunities,* rather than 100% combat.
I like this idea. Actually, in Dragon Quest IV you can randomly encounter merchants in one of the chapters, which is always a nice surprise.
This is what they're like in the TTRPGs where they originated, many random encounters are simple setpieces or a chance to encounter an NPC. Even then, you can make random combat encounters more interesting by having the enemies be doing something instead of just standing around in a void waiting to jump players. In older editions they could be more combat focused, but even then that was because wandering monsters were mostly supposed to be a punishment for the party goofing around too much.
One of the best example of random encounters is Fantasian's Dimengeon. Here is how it works:
You turn your "Dimengeon" on and it stores all random encounters inside it but when it's full it triggers a random encounter with bazillion enemies. It's extremely rewarding mechanic to have few extremely challenging encounters or a lot of easy encounters. Additionally, you can trigger a battle with whatever number of enemies stored inside your Dimengeon. It's very modular and it's currently my favorite system for random encounters.
I want to play Fantasian so bad but Apple Arcade blows
@@laffyman8218 News was floating that it's coming to Steam. That being said, I subscribed exclusively to play that game and cancelled my subscription after 😂 it's extremely underrated and underappreciated
Such a cool idea. Hopefully is gets a proper PC/console port. Love Sakaguchi!
Gotta support the bros.
We appreciate that!
Shining the Holy Arc
This game did random encounters well as enemies would come in from off screen in beautiful animations. It would be spooky when an enemy pops up from around the corner, or when you turn around and an enemy appears where you just stood, or when a zombie unearths himself in front of you.
Just a fantastic game with among the best pre-rendered sprites.
They really made it fun by giving you the different pixies. It forced you to pay attention to where/how the enemy encounters, quickly pick the right group and then rewards you w/, well, better rewards.
I agree random encounters make dungeons actually have tension. There have been a few times/games where I was in a dungeon, starting to get low on health and had to decide to either press on or run back to the town to rest. Decisions like that make gaming fun.
I do love that aspect of RPGs as well. Dragon Quest series is great with this
I really enjoy yalls themes and esthetic. I ain't got no friends and it refreshing seeing people who have marinated in these genres of games and music and interest as much as I do. Yalls intro absolutely sends me too a world in my head that I've refused too let go of since I was a kid, full of hopes and dreams. Anyways... thank yall. Yalls content is dope
Peace bro, God Bless
I’ve been through all the random encounters of RPGs from 1980-Now what a life of gaming
It helps me sleep... plus I'm getting stronger all the time 😎
True OG right here, respect
@@GamingBroductionsmuch respect and I appreciate you and all your work enjoy life
Been playing a lot of PSone RPGs and some old-school Pokemon lately, and I feel like you pretty much nailed exactly how I feel about random encounters.
I also really have no idea why no one has ever really used Pokemon's idea of "safe" and "battle" overworld zones, it seems like the perfect compromise and I think part of what makes that formula age so smoothly.
Maybe it's just the old-schooler in me, but I do have a certain enjoyment of random encounters... and one of my favorite things BATTLE SWOOSHES
Even in games where there aren't safe areas, I still find random encounters preferable to visible overworld encounters because if it's random encounters then it's very stress free. I'm going from point A to point B, and maybe along the way a fight triggers. Fight it out or run, continue on my way. Whether I get into a fight or not is out of my hands. But with enemies visible on the overworld, now there's an enormous amount of stress involved. Because if I don't want to get into a fight (and generally unless you're actively grinding, you don't so that's most of the time) then I'll of course try to avoid it. Which means moving out of my way, and maybe I've just been unlucky but many of the games I've played with overworld enemies have them be VERY aggressive and as fast or even faster than the player, and heaven help you if the environment isn't open enough to make avoiding them easy!
It ends up having the same net effect in my experience: I'm in a fight I probably didn't want, but now I'm way more stressed and probably took more time as well trying to avoid the enemy.
I think if people don't like having to deal with battles then instead of demanding overworld enemies they should just demand games make things like Repels from Pokemon and have them available early on and cheaply.
To expand on the historical aspect of the video: Random Encounters, like most things in RPGs, traces it's roots back to Dungeons & Dragon. There, dungeons usually had what we now call set encounters, but the Dungeon Master would also roll on a table after a certain amount of in-game time to see if a monster showed up. This was to simulate a dungeon being an active, working environment where it's inhabitants we're just waiting around to be sword fodder. Of course, the party could potentially hear these monsters coming and avoid or ambush them if they were quick enough.
The more you know 🌈⭐️
Very interesting, thanks for that tidbit!
Yeah, also it’s not like random encounters were necessary the “start” of JRPGs, there were also “bump-action” combat systems (think stuff like the early Ys games) and people exploring alternative encounter systems alongside the time random encounters were dominant, it’s just that one eventually became more favored over the other over time.
@@Ratty524 I miss Bump-Action RPGs. Such a unique mechanic.
Yesss, thank you for this! I'm a big random encounter defender and it's so refreshing to see someone else think about them with some nuance. Your point about overworld vs dungeon encounters is actually brilliant as well, I'll store that away for the future. I've picked up an interest in dungeon crawlers in recent years, and random encounters are great there. In Etrian Odyssey, there is an encounter radar like in Legend of Dragoon, but that information is way more useful because it really matters where and when you get into an encounter. I'll often find myself forcing an encounter before I enter a room where I know an FOE is.
Hell yeah, anyone who's played Etrian Odyssey is cool in my books. It definitely puts extra consideration into random encounters when a normal battle could lead to a quick game over because the player didn't think the nearby giant dinosaur was going to hop in on the fun.
I like the games that if you are overleveled auto-wins the encounter without entering in combat.
I don't think I've seen this system, but am curious about it. You got any recommendations using it?
@@bunnybreaker Persona 5 has the option to unlock this skill with Ryuji. If you attack an enemy to enter in combat and you are 10 levels above that enemy, you insta-kill them.
This isn't the first time in a game that you can do this, but I can't recollect other games before it.
Earthbound on SNES did this. It had visible enemies and if you were too strong, enemies would also run from you
The Trails... games have been doing this, and so have more recent Persona games.
I like the way the Etrian Odyssey games do random encounters. It's a lot like the legend of dragoon example, where there's a meter that shows you how close you are to getting a random encounter, but the nature of the game elevates that tension and is a deliberate design choice. Being dungeon crawlers, the EO games are entirely about resource management and battles can be brutal, when you're low on health you really need to think "do I risk getting into another fight or do I warp out of here?" There are also mini-boss style enemies called F.O.E.s that you can visibly see and when one is nearby the encounter rate slows down considerably so you have some time to get to safety, but if you do get into a random battle, the F.O.E.s still move around the map and can ambush you mid-fight.
I may have just missed it but i am really surprised you didn't talk about the overworld system of BOF 3 especially since footage was shown. I loved that exploration was prioritized where there were no random encounters on the world map but if you wanted to grind every now and then an exclamation point would pop up and if you chose you could enter into a random area with random encounters that would also always have a random item. As an aside i also loved how they would block certain paths in the overworld until you completed the in depth area (the mountains come to mind) and then once you beat them you could just move right through on the overworld.
First time I’ve ever watched a video… leaving this comment immediately after the intro because holy hell your intro is fire brother. So many dope snippets from amazing games. I appreciate your taste! Back to the video now!
Thanks dude glad you liked it! Sounds like you have some great taste as well. Hope you enjoyed the rest of the video
Keep doing what you're doing man. I love these videos.
Love to hear that dude, we certainly plan to. Thanks for watching
I think the first Valkyrie Profile did it best. No encounters on the world map and on dungeons the enemies are visible but they all look the same, a black shadow, so you don't know which enemy it's gonna be until you enter battle. You can skip battles when doing puzzles and exploring, and still get the random element when you want to fight.
Yeah man so good, playing a game of dodging a badly animated, bad AI, blob running at you trough a tight corridor. Trully "doing it best". People talk cuz its free lmao
I really enjoyed VP but thoroughly did not understand what I was doing the first time lol
@@usuariofuturista you could freeze the enemies in place and use the frozen blobs as stepping stones to do your platforming. What you're talking about is what the kids call a 'skill issue'.
This still has one of the issues he mentioned in the video. Dungeons aren’t as intimidating and well balanced because you can just skip past all the enemies.
I've never cared if random or not. I've never understood this since it was a complaint in gaming magazines and I thought I was missing some crucial detail. It's only annoying when the devs crank up the encounter rate (FFII) to a ridiculous degree, but otherwise it makes little difference if I can see the enemy or not. Usually I like random because I can level faster, use and item to increase encounter rate rather than run to the next screen to turn back or I realize the game is easier because encounter rate is minimal and leveling made easy. It feels casual.
My thoughts exactly. I enjoy random encounters, but very high random encounter rates suck.
Oh hell yeah, new vid! Grinding random encounters endlessly to spike tough bosses into the dirt was a tactic I used as a kid who couldn't understand finer game mechanics. Your ideas are interesting, especially from a game dev perspective. The idea of random encounters only being present in dungeons is a good one I believe. You still have plenty of exploration options while still making dungeons tense and giving people the option to grind if they choose.
This is something that REALLY needed to be said. I am so tired of some of my favorite games being bashed because "rAnDoM eNcOuNtErS sUcK!" (looking at YOU, davidinc and a few others). Granted, some games, some areas, the random battles are over-the-top (Breath of Fire 1's Wizard Tower, anyone? It's literally every 3rd step) but these games usually also give you ways of avoiding the encounters (like BoF and its Mrbl3 item). Random Encounters are the game's difficulty slider, kill more stuff, the challenge goes down some. Run from battles and the challenge goes up as you get more under-levelled.
One thing that is important for a game to understand, is that the transition from walking to battle back to walking needs to be FAST. that's why random encounters feel terrible in a game like Legend of Dragoon where you can go and make a sandwich and come back and you're finally loaded up in the battle but yet a game like Lufia 1 I don't mind the random battles because it takes literally 3 seconds from walking to battle and the battles are fast paced (it also helps that the battle theme kicks serious ass too!) and its battle system is a bit more engaging, too.
Also unique to Lufia 1 is the fact that the battle screen does not replace the walking screen. Sometimes in games with mazy dungeons, I lose my sense of where I planned on going next when the whole screen changes. This doesn't happen in Lufia 2, as the battle UI is displayed over top of the walking area.
And finally, one has to talk about rewards. Again, Lufia, levelups are very much felt. 2-3 levels makes an amazing difference in your characters' power. Seeing Jerin level up and gain 6-8 strength is amazing because she will easily add 10-20 damage onto her attacks and that can be the difference between almost killing an enemy to killing it more often in one attack and with her having the AoE attacks with her bows, it makes a huge difference, and levelups usually come in about 10-20 battles that are usually rather fast-paced. Compare that to a game like Legend of Dragoon where you have to fight a ludicrous number of battles that take forever and when you DO finally get a levelup, you don't really notice it past the first few levels, and yeah. Random battles feel terrible in that game. Thankfully they're a little more rare and the game at least lets you know when you're about to get into one (the arrow above your head changes colors from blue to yellow to red as you run around).
I think you just have to speed up the battles.
Even if you get rid of random encounters, if you make the battles last 3 minutes each, they become a huge pain in the ass.
Outro track killed me….🔥🔥🔥 Solid vid as always. ✊🏾
Thanks dude!
I both love and hate random encounters. I prefer them in most games, but they almost always frustrate me. lol
Shining the Holy Arc did them well. Enemies could only appear if you moved and they would pop out from visible objects in the field (e.g. hiding behind a tree, or around the corner in a dungeon).
8:47 explanation point hahaaa.
Having pointed that out, every single track you used is awesome.
Thank you.
Oh shit I’m a dumbass. Lol I spell it correctly in a note a little bit later though so I promise I know the actual word, just had a little brain fart 😅
Glad you enjoyed those tracks man!
@@GamingBroductions
it's Alright. Brain farts are what makes us human.
Another banger, man. I still think the original Pokemon games nailed it with the opt in/out tall grass. It's such an intuitive, simple solution!
For sure! It just makes a lot of sense, it’s pretty surprising more RPGs haven’t tried something similar
Another note for the first two Suikoden games: when you're on the overworld, if you travel in a straight line (or along roads in S2) your encounter rate is lower than if you zigzag around. It's not perfect, but it makes sense that if you're wandering around an open field your party is hunting.
Modern RPG fans be like, "Man, I hate ""the core function of the genre"" mechanic.
Love your content. Like every part of it. Thank you for all the hard work.
No problem, thanks for always tuning in dude
Your intro is the best I’ve come across. I love the toonami vibes
Thank you that means a lot! That was the goal
I like how holy protection works in the OG dragon quest VIII. It makes weaker enemies disappear, so you can nearly always travel thru the world without encounters, but it hardly works in dungeons, where it can reduce the encounter rate somewhat, but you'll still got to face the toughest enemies. And if you need to grind you just use whistle, none of that runing in circles bullshit. Some FF games give you similar abilities way late in the game, but DQ8 gives you both just a bit near the start, letting you decide when you want to explore and when you want to grind, and still keeping the dungeons menacing.
You've made me realize i mostly resent random encounters in games that don't have strong enough stories and engaging characters. I definitely agree that there are too many random encounters in Romancing Saga 2 - but i loved that game, even though it was clearly not finished when it first appeared.
Great video! I don't mind random encounters, but I admit I have gotten kind of used to not having them over the past 10 years or so. I like how Pokemon does it actually!
Another upload!?!?? Wow! Appreciate it the dedication to the craft gents!
No problem, thanks for watching and the continued support!
I think the mechanic can be used well the same way earlier titles with visible enemies was a mess. I'm thinking mostly of Romancing SaGa 1 & 2 on the SNES, both infamous for their enemy spam. You can see the enemies on the map, but good luck not getting caught in the horde! 😂
It's especially infuriating cobsidering how encounters affect both progress and difficulty in these games. They did find a good balance starting with Romancing SaGa 3.
Bro, you just keep dropping banger after banger. First we get videos about pre-rendered backgrounds, then FMV’s and now encounters. An RPG lover couldn’t ask for more. These are like little nostalgia bombs I just inject strait into my veins!
Hahah I love this comment. Glad to hear you’re enjoying the content dude!
@@GamingBroductions Yeah man I really love the videos. They are really great for when you want to relive some of these Nostalgic RPG’s but don’t have time to play a 40 hours game. Just pop one of your videos on and you get that warm a fuzzy feeling. Great stuff.
I feel like a lot of newer JRPGs without random encounters are actually worse off for it.
There are several dungeons in Dragon Quest 3 that don't even have bosses, but are completely brutal to get through because the random encounters are forcing you into fights. Sometimes you're pitted against large groups of very dangerous monsters and you have to gauge whether it's worth the risk of a flee attempt since if it fails the enemy will get a free turn on you, vs the resources (hit points, MP, limited inventory slots for items) it would take to defeat them.
Compare that to Dragon Quest XI where the enemies are visible on the overworld... DQXI can certainly be challenging at times, but you can pretty much sprint past any enemy on the overworld or in a dungeon. It neuters any sense of risk, any sense of surprise or the challenge of 'getting caught with your pants down' that random encounters bring.
A lot of games just do random encounters poorly, with too high frequency and trash mobs that are trivial to dispatch. Just wasting the player's time. Over time I think I've come to prefer them, but they just need to be tuned properly.
SMT3: Nocturne I think handles random encounters the best out of any JRPG I've played-- you get an indicator that tells you when you're about to get into a fight, after you finish a random encounter you can get surprised by even more packs of enemies, and the action in Nocturne is so quick, snappy and impactful that you can finish 3 fights in the time that you'd finish 1 in a different JRPG.
On screen enemies is a disaster, ruins the dungeon design, makes the game about dodging blobs with bad AI, just nasty overall. Only very dumb people are for it.
Yes dude I recently played SMT Nocturne for the first time. While I wasn't a huge fan of the characters and plot, the combat might be the single best version of JRPG combat that I've ever seen. That's what really made me want to keep playing.
You and Design Doc would make a great collaboration video. He also made a great video on turn based combat a few years ago that was very comprehensive.
Glad you brought up random encounters in puzzle rooms. Recently quit one of the Megaman Battle Network games because of it.
It can be pretty damn annoying sometimes for sure. I like puzzles in RPGs, just think they should be separated from battling in that case
I hate random encounters in dungeons that have puzzles. Trying to remember what I was doing is a headache. I also hate getting turned around in mazes because of random encounters.
Facts, puzzles with random encounters is a big no from me
Another great video! Always love how you edit your videos! Just like those good ol’ Toonami and Adult Swim days. I’ve always been okay with random encounters, but that is probably because it is what I grew up with when I was introduced to JRPG’s. Either way I think it truly comes down to the game
One thing I like a lot about the Final Fantasy VIII overworld is that it has roads and railways. Not only does it contribute to the world building and let you travel by car or rail, but walking on top of these paths also keeps random encounters away.
I agree with the video and definitely miss the challenge and resource management of older rpgs and random encounters were large part of that, even for the now action rpgs. Though not necessarily difficult dungeons, Final Fantasy 15 had a good mix between that and the modern. 15 had many monster ambushes in dungeons that felt natural. Even over world fights felt like fighting wild animals. Unfortunately both 16 and the VII remake series have reverted to a “monster stands in an encounter circle just waiting for you to fight it”. They don’t exist beyond that for any reason. It feels immersion breaking even in the beautiful open world that VII rebirth created. Hopefully more future games will implement immersive living monsters in the world with a mix of random ambush encounters.
“Babe i cant talk, new gaming broductions video just dropped and its better than all of Summer Game Fest”
We dig these priorities
my commute to work tomorrow is now sorted. can't wait
Hell yeah hope you enjoyed it 👌
That explanation on why random encounters would make more sense in dungeons is so genius I'm surprised more games don't go in that direction.
Good item drops/equipment! Always makes random encounters better
Very true! There should be proper incentive for wanting to get into fights in the first place
Loved the outro!
Awesome! It took way more editing than usual so glad to hear it was appreciated
Your intro is always one of my favorite parts. So good!
Haha love to hear it!
DAMN MY BOI IS PUMPIN EM OUT
Just out here droppin offerings to the mighty algorithm hoping to get blessed
@@GamingBroductions 🙏🏼🙏🏼
I was just going to comment about Suikoden.. nice work as usual fellas!
I figured some people would so I was like ah shit I at least to need throw it in at the end lol. Thanks!
Great video, I totally agree. I love random encounters, it's the surprise and the challenge, and you could build in cool mechanics like rare enemies so you're excited to see what appears! But equally, it does get to the stage where you don't want to explore anymore because it's just too much. Giving the options and flexibility to players is the way to go I think.
Cool video! I think the “worst” encounter rates I got that I played was the original dragon quest on NES, those sounds still live rent free in my head 😂 One example you didn’t mention was Earthbound I loved how when you’d get the next Sanctuary melody the enemies would straight up run away from you like “screw that guy he took out Frank I’m outta here” I LOVED that idea and wish it was implemented more in random encounters. Also bro that skit at the end that was chefs kiss 😂 😊👌
your videos always have the best vibes and absolutely loving the zelda's quests bits at the end
Thanks dude! This Zelda’s quest bit took a lot more editing than usual so glad to hear it was enjoyed
I knew it! That's literally the first thought that came to mind when you posted that Pokemon map pic. LOL.
Nice! There were a few others that correctly guessed it as well
Now that you mentioned it, modern jrpgs don't really have resource management as part of the gameplay loop, or atleast it is very minimized, I didn't connect it before to Random Encounters
In DQ8, I recall enemies being so aggressive, especially dungeons, it basically forced me into fighting anyway, but then if I wanted to farm enemies, I now had to catch them as they started running
Great job diving into this topic my guys. 👍
Thanks my dude!
Another great video, fellas!
I'd also like to give a shout out to Persona 5 for having a skill that allows you to immediately finish battles if you are x amount of levels above the enemy. I think this is a great way to deal with retreading areas, or even when walking around the world map in old places to explore.
Always such a vibe in the vid. Keep it up 🔥
I still love random encounters. As someone that tends to over grind anyway, they never bothered me. Not to say I dislike non-random encounters, those are perfectly fine too. I just am more likely to avoid battles more often when the enemies are on the map but then I rarely run from a random encounter. I've just never really understood the hate random encounters get. However I am all for options that allow you to tailor the experience you are having.
Much prefer random encounters over all the forced encounters in FF7R. At least random encounters can be run from or reduced in some games (like the encounter materia in FF7).
Bravely Default 1/Second handle random encounter the best way in my opinion. 😁
It’s kind of a shame more RPGs haven’t tried something similar
looking forward to future doggo rpg
Things are steadily building, got some cool ideas for the lore
A man after my own heart. I don't mind random encounters but let me explore the overworld uninterrupted!
Still the best content on UA-cam. Keep’em coming!
Overall I generally love random encounters. There are 2 main reasons: like you pointed out, you just can't run around everything. If these worlds were real and monsters were really evil, maniacal creatures that want to murder you, you would have all sorts of encounters. Second, it builds a sense of tension. Remember how in FF1 you'd dread seeing a party of ghasts/ghouls and the relief you made it to old man w/ the rod? Or Warmech? Or areas where the Malboro can pop up at any moment? Or the exciting time when you luckily bump into a metal slime? You lose almost all that tension w/ visible enemies.
Gotta disagree about the overworld, but to me it should be location dependent. Though you do make valid points about overworld, I feel many games, part of the fun is struggling to the next respite (ie town/campfire/whatever). It gives a sense of adventure and makes the world feel like a harsh, brutal place. But certain areas should be calm while others deadly. To me it's much more D&D-like when you have to venture w/ care. I think a cool idea would be as you encounter enemies in an area, encounters become less common, cuz you killed all the enemies. Then it repopulates after a certain time.
Definitely agree about the dungeons. Especially the resource management. It is fun stuff! But damn, some games do have way too many encounters and can make it frustrating. I think this has always been the biggest criticism, which is absolutely valid.
Like others have pointed out, a great way to balance tension w/o randomness is "blobs" you can see but don't know what the enemy is. And also forcing the occasional enemy too fast/inescapable. I'd personally love the OPTION to have visible or random. Then we'd all be happy, right? Right?
I think a mixture would be nice. Having monsters visible allow the devs to place the right number of monsters to ensure you level up on pace. It's up to you then to come back and fight more. But then add the Bravely Default option of adjusting the percentage. If it's random encounters, it would work as it does in Bravely Default. If monsters are visible, lowering the rate would make them completely unaggressive, ensuring you don't accidentally trigger a fight by entering a monster's line of sight.
Dont you realize my friend that visible mosters means less moster variety? It means having to rig and animate a whole new model, just for a bad mechanic of dodging some bad AI enemy running at you. Just makes the game worst overall.
@@usuariofuturista perhaps a while ago but idk, look at games like Sea of Stars, Xenoblade Chronicles 2, and Dragon Quest XI S... we've reached a point where the tech makes this no longer a big liability. And fewer monsters is fine. Quality over quantity. Though I do see your point, it could be an issue for some developers.
I kind of like how Tales of handled visible encounters in some entries. In Symphonia, enemy icons on the world map will eventually pop up that are much faster than the other ones and will beeline towards you. If you're at a good distance already you can avoid them, but generally they tend to catch you since they move much faster than the player does. Abyss actually has certain enemy icons that move faster or slower depending on what enemy it is and the dungeons can be designed in a way that makes it impossible to avoid them unless you get by without them noticing you. Of course, since the games essentially let you run away for free, there's not much tension in this but the idea is nice.
I also prefer visible encounters but I typically don't mind random if the encounter rate isn't too fast and it doesn't have surprise attacks when you have no control over that.
Modern examples of great turn based combat
Persona 5
Octopath 1 and 2
Shin megami tensai 5
Bravely default 2
Shadows of Adam
In terms of random encounters. I do prefer seeing enemies and choosing to engage but dont mind random encounters at all if they are not too frequent and load times are snappy. Better again if it gives you bravely default style control over encounter rate. I CAN get behind random encounters where you need to monitor your supplies to make it through dungeon. It adds to the intensity and makes you focus like in early FF 1 BUT Long load times like in FF9 and legend of dragoon are a big no. Even back in 2000 the load times into combat I found grueling in those games.
Fantastic upload mate
Definitely agree about long loading times really hampering the concept of random encounters. Luckily FF9 has the port now to speed up gameplay but yeah games like The Legend of Dragoon are very hard to go back to and play nowadays just due to the egregious loading and animation times
Thanks dude!
This topic rules! it’s like you guys can see my thoughts
I’m glad I’m not the only one who feels similarly!
The biggest drawback is definitely the encounter rate. Which is what made Bravely Default so cool, max out encounters to grind, turn them off to explore, and everything in-between. Playing through Wild Arms for the first time and the encounter rate is very fair, but I still find it makes some of the dungeons tedious (like the death maze when I missed a statue and had to back track). I felt when I tried to play Dragon Quest 5&8 that the encounter rate was pretty high and made exploration tedious. But I certainly don't mind random encounters, they just can really drag in some older titles lol. Also sidenote: Have you ever thought about a video on JRPGs that give deserts ocean properties? I've noticed it's fairly common. And for good reason lol
The biggest sin of random encounters is interrupting the amazing music some games have in their overworld/dungeons.
Oh man I freaking hate it when the music loops back to the start too so you never get to hear the full song and only the first 10-20 seconds. Just the worst
damn y'all the ending lore has gotten complex, love it
It was me the whole time, Barry.
I did like the way Legend of Dragoon did it, and thought it was fine that you couldn't control it from happening. But it would be cool to take that a step further to add a sprint button while running if you're close to a transition area. That way you then have a change of escaping the encounter. Or maybe if you sprint a certain distance it'd be like you're outrunning the monster and go from red down to yellow.
That’s actually a pretty interesting idea that I’ve never really thought of before and a good way to build upon that LoD concept. There could maybe even be some kind of stamina meter or something making it to where you can’t just run from every fight and have to strategically choose which battles you want to sprint away from and which ones you just wanna fight
Holy crap! You guys can make videos under a half hour???? 🤣🤣🤣
Like always this is an amazing video.
It's definitely not something I had probably thought about. I completely agree with you that random encounters in dungeons but not on overworld would be ideal.
I loved how wild ARMs did it with the exclamation point. I think it was 3 that had a green exclamation for weaker encounters you could cancel, white and red? Or am I misremembering? And you just answered it. 🤣🤣🤣
I believe Fantasian, which is about to be ported, had an interesting encounter system. I think you can cancel up to a certain amount of encounters but you don't fully cancel them, you bank them. Then when you bank the max you fight all the ones you banjed back to back and go back to 0 banked.
FFX did a good job with getting out of battles quick. Once you get Flee with Tidus you can get in and out pretty quick.
Wandering monsters in old pen and paper games were there to encourage efficient exploration, and have a sense of danger and a sort of unbeatable spirit of the area to put it weirdly, like you weren't going to slaughter everything, you were an intruder who needed to get in, do what you needed to do, and get out. It's a cool way to set up the feeling of a place without assuming the point was to "pacify" an area
I agree completely! The kind of encounter doesn't matter so much. You could potentially even have a high random encounter rate in a gauntlet style: You need to get through here the first time, but don't even bother exploring, because there is nothing. A high encounter rate destroys just that: Exploring, doing puzzles, walking back and forth. It makes sense that a dungeon is guarded. You can even have forks in the road. But...if you already killed 20 mobs or 100 monsters, where do they keep coming from? These dungeons are so small that, to accomodate those numbers, they would have to filled to the brim, like downtown at rush hour. How can you even walk there? And why can you not see that crowd of monsters? There needs to be a way to clear a path, even if it's just for a certain period, otherwise people won't enjoy exploring the game anymore. Otherwise the encounter rate has to be reasonably low.
Took the words right out of my mouth on how random encounters should be treated. Was thinking of commenting on the Suikoden let go function but you even caught that at the end. All about balance!
I think the biggest problem with battles in RPGs is time. So many games have long animations or time to kill is really high or battle frequency is high. I think devs need to work hard to make sure all of these are in balance otherwise combat just becomes tedious/boring/unfun
Speaking of random encounters, i have had 2 instances of something in defenders of oasis, a gamegear dragon quest clone with an arabian/egyption theme, said something being triggering 2 fights in the same step. Win one fight just to wind up in another.
A good balance would be a Skyrim-esque system where you level up from non-combat actions too. Then allow to turn off random encounters with an item or ability, and fight as it sukts you. You won't be underleveled and you'll still have to fight certain scripted battles.
Random fights could be entirely ignored until/if you choose to engage, and just incentivise it so they don't but probably should (like to find exclusive items or level faster).
The ONLY issue with random encounters is not having a system to flee them beforehand saving the user of wasting time on a loading screen, already fixed by daddy Sakaguchi on Fantasian so no idea why we are even having this discussion.
My most memorable experience "surviving" a dungeon was Final Fantasy IV's final dungeon (DS version). It was super long, had mini-bosses for random encounters (Behemoth, Iron Giant), and only had one save point. Thrilling but god is it frustrating if you game over. Pretty sure that game gave me a taste for it, since it was my first JRPG that wasn't Mario or Pokemon.
Very engaging video, nice points & arguments. The "skipping on-screen enemies" thing is so lame to me in Trails of Cold Steel, I always thought it was silly how you can outrun EVERY enemy in the game and its not even hard to. But I can imagine some players preferring this approach, seeing it as QoL and not caring about any thrill of "surviving" and "resource managing" a dungeon. Trails is absolutely a story-first game series so I think its done on purpose.
The "fixed number of random encounters in a dungeon" at 11:30 was done earlier by Ar Tonelico on PS2 (2006), and its only like 8 encounters instead of 25 there. In that game, escaping battles has 100% success rate AND the encounter number still goes down if you do that, so they made that game really forgiving overall.
Some JRPGs are more about gameplay, some are more about story. You could say the style of enemy encounters in a RPG represents what kind of game it's trying to be. So if a JRPG, especially a modern one, chooses to use random encounters, its definitely a design choice, or at least going for a certain audience. So I definitely agree that's unfair to call them "outdated". Games like SMT and Etrian Odyssey are out for your blood, and on-screen encounters would diminish the tension of dungeons somewhat.
I like the way Breath of Fire 3 handled random encounters. The enemies would appear in the game area rather than sending you to another battle zone like in Final Fantasy and Legend of Dragoon. That way the number of enemies that appeared during an encounter could be determined by the playable space available.
Seeing the legend of legaia clip got me thinking… you should do a vid on jrpg run speed 😂
Oh man that would be quite the obscure topic lol. Might be some potential there though…
I honestly like the oldschool model?? I have no problem with those high encounter rates
If you’re in the right mindset for it, a lot of battles and grinding can be a pretty chill and relaxing time
I've played RPGs of all varieties for as long as I can remember, it's great seeing some of the lesser known titles get acknowledged here. Random encounters always felt like part of the package to me, I've never disliked them in any notable way, though I do agree that they can get frustrating when they're too common. There are a lot of games I can think of that handle things in an interesting way, but I'll limit myself to three (two really, and just a story about Pokemon since everyone knows how they work in that series).
Etrian Odyssey is a series that, much like The Legend of Dragoon, lets you know when a random encounter is nearing, and you as the player aren't able to prevent it. However, due to the presence of the series' infamous FOEs (literally "Field-On Enemy" in some games), it's vital that you try to take encounters on your own terms. FOEs are visible enemies that appear on most floors of the labyrinth, and are usually way more powerful than the standard enemies. They move every time you move, and continue moving for every turn you spend in battle. Different ones have different behaviors too, like some may chase you when you get near, or only move while you're in battle but are inactive otherwise. They can actually join into your random encounters if they move into your space mid-battle. Since fighting one is a death sentence if you're unprepared, it's your job to either take encounters outside of their threat ranges or end battles quickly. The encounter rate in these games tends to be somewhat low (and often lowers even further when near FOEs), so it's like another part of the puzzle on how to navigate the labyrinth.
Guardian's Crusade is a game that I've never seen anyone else ever mention so I can't prove that it wasn't a fever dream rather than a game I played as a kid, but it was a PS1 game with visible encounters. Stronger enemies would appear larger and red, and would chase you if you got close to them. Weaker enemies would appear smaller and white, and would flee if you got close. Sort of like Wild Arms, this gives you an idea of how strong you were for the area, and it makes it harder to skip fights if you're weaker than the game expects you to be. Level up a bit, and you'll only get into battles on your own terms. This way, the game can kinda auto-balance how often you'll encounter enemies, even when having visible enemies usually means the player can skip most of them.
Lastly, there's Pokemon. I don't think I have to explain how Pokemon works, you did a good job as it is in the video. Newer games in the series have been using visible encounters more, and for the most part I'm in favor of it. It does make looking for specific Pokemon a lot easier, and they're usually easier to avoid if you just want to get to the next area. The game can still moderate how much experience you're getting by placing Trainer battles in the way, since random encounters aren't the only non-boss battle. Scarlet/Violet have given more Pokemon unique behavior on the field, meaning just running in a line away from them isn't always viable. There is just one thing I do have an issue with, and to be fair I'm not sure whether it was my fault or not. I'm not a shiny hunter, my goals when playing Pokemon don't align with spending time on that, but I did once catch a shiny Pokemon in Shield version and felt pretty good about it. By the end of the game though, my Trainer card said I had seen two, and I only remember the one. What I'm not sure of is whether "Shiny Pokemon Found" means seen on the field, or encountered in a battle. I don't know whether one spawned and I walked right by it, or I ran from/knocked one out without realizing it was shiny, and the latter is possible because I didn't realize the Pokemon I caught was shiny until after I caught it (and I considered knocking it out). I don't think I'd ever have that issue with fixed encounters, though at the same time if I were a shiny hunter, I think I could cycle through more 'encounters' to actually find what I want without having to get into so many battles and running from them. I guess that's an issue that's specific to casual players like me, nothing really game-breaking.
With the essays I end up writing in my comments, I really oughta make my own video to get my thoughts out sometimes :p
Breath of Fire 3 (shown in a scene of Closing Thoughts) is the closer I've seen of "random in dungeons and visible on the world map", where in the world map you can get an ! On top of your head that lets you (if you want to) enter a "random treasure map" with random encounters and at least one treasure based on location.
Lufia2 had a reason to have dungeon encounters visible: the tools allowed you to have puzzles anywhere, even letting you use enemies as a piece for them.
And about escaping... Well, in Chrono Cross you can escape any battle. Even bosses. Although in some it is more of a reset?
Though I'm unable to play it there is also the system that they used in Mistwalker's Fantasian that is kind of a spinoff of the Wild Arms 3 system. It collects all of the encounters that you would of had and aggregates them into a "hoard" of enemies or raising the chance of having more powerful enemies.
So you can fight a lot of small ones all at once, multiple battles with smaller foes, or battle big guys. You also get to choose when you initiate these battles so that helps a lot.
Side note: Dangit Sakaguchi please stop putting all of your cool games on niche platforms!
Random battles were balanced in Octopath Traveler 2
I still need to play this one, I’ve heard good things and that it’s even better than the first
@@GamingBroductions play it. It's really great
nice new video!
btw just my 2cent. I'm not feeling this video thumbnail but the content is good as always.
Thanks for your input! We actually weren’t crazy about it either so we changed it to one with more color, hopefully it pops a little more
If the encounter rate is sane (snes FF) I have never had a problem with random battles. But kind of like the puzzle room random encounters... Xenogears would have platforming... with random battles. Anytime I replay the game and I get to the tower of Babel I have to mentally prepare myself for it.
Ehn...random encounters are just not for me. I just wanna see the enemy which allows me to chose how over-powered I wanna be. If I gotta have to deal with R.E, then a color-coded icon for how close I am to an engagement would suffice, letting me stop and give up a certain amount of time to avoid an encounter.
I love the amazingly-intreging world of Skies Of Arcadia, but dang it are the bloody random encounters exploration-killers.
hahaha amazing ending
I don't mind random encounters. But I do appreciate systems that let you automatically win the fight or fast forward if you're too powerful
This is a much appreciated option, more games should do this
What is also pretty interesting is what the 2D Tales of games like Tales of Phantasia do: It has random encounters for the entire game, but there are one or two sections in the game where enemies are suddenly visible and battles only start if you touch them.
Which is funny, those areas in Tales of Phantasia are the most frustrating ones XD
Similar to one of the final pyramid dungeons in Tales of Destiny.
I agree with some of your points and disagree with others.
Chrono Trigger is so perfect it is usually my go-to for any and everything. I do prefer the enemies to be visible and to have the possibility of fleeing or postponing an encounter. Some, though, you'll have a really hard time avoiding, or won't be able to no matter what. It all comes to the environment and the positioning of said monsters, a big monster or a party of monsters in a very tight spot is a sure fight. Or you can have monsters that chase the player with an extra oomph while others would flee.
You said that you'd probably not be able to evade an encounter in a dark cave, and I guess you're partially right, but. But. You even showed The 7th Saga! I haven't gone far at all into it but all you need is the first open field. Encounters are NOT random, you can see them in the minimap. Now you just TRY avoiding all of them. You can't, you simply can't. Now take the minimap off and keep the effect. You can make enemies roam invisible too. You could also opt for the easiest trick in the book, one which Final Fantasy I and II (and possibly III but I don't remember) used a lot: spots on the floor where you're forced to battle every time you set foot there, but also easily avoidable if you know them.
Here's what a perfect game would look like for me. Actually, I'll give three examples, three games I'd love to make if I could or play if I found them. All of them turn-based, as that is the sole thing that brought me to RPGs (I love their stories too, but there are other genres with good stories and I could also read a book).
First: A Monster Hunter-like game. Open world, limited only by your levels and equipment and your courage to face bigger and more threatening monsters always farther away from home and safety. It could have a world map but only for consulting, because every square inch of the desert or of the mountain and every field in between you'd have to travel on foot, or through fast travel after you get there walking at least once. You'd see almost every enemy out there from afar, and then you could decide if you'd fight them or not. But some would ambush you from above, below, from a corner, etc. And some would actually flee, so if you really want to fight them you'd have to use the environment to trap them somehow, or maybe fire a tracking or stunning arrow or something like that.
Second: A traditional epic fantasy quest (see what I did there?). Again, in dungeons you could always see the enemies, but some you woudn't be able to avoid for a reason or two (tight corridors, chasing, or simply for standing smack in the middle of your path on purpose). Others would flee you. Can you imagine hunting for a Metal Slime or a Mover all along a dark cave trying to avoid every other encounter? That would be fun. On the overworld, Breath of Fire III's desert part is almost perfect. At random or whenever prompted by a "!" sign above the character's head you could ignore or not, you'd be drawn into a smaller field where you could see items and/or enemies you could ignore and flee from, though some would be alerted by you simply moving in any direction, thus forcing a battle.
Third: A manga-like (Bleach, Jujutsu Kaisen) monster raid game. Again, open world in a smaller setting, like a whole city. I always think Saints Row IV and Gat Out of Hell because of the Wardens and the demons. You control a group of characters responsible for slaying the monsters that haunt a small city or neighborhood, and you could either sense their presence Valkyrie Profile-like style, scaling a tall building and expanding a radar-like sixth sense, or simply follow the screams and the path of destruction. I read a very good novel last year called Nightmare City by P. S. Newman where a phenomenom happened which makes people's dreams come true in the form of Shades. Some of the Shades are a small volcano in the middle of L.A. which is a portal to hell, huge fire breathing chimeras, hell hounds, a fire-wielder doppelganger of a megacorp CEO and a character from a girl's favorite comics made real. Imagine that in a Saints Row environment and turn-based combat: that has been my dream game for a decade now. Where the hell are the monsters in Yakuza - Like a Dragon?!? A boss battle in the sewers or subways with a huge monster stuck in a tunnel is a must (Google "Subway Boris Groh" for a very good visual cue).
So, yeah, not a fan of random encounters. But I understand why they were used in earlier games, not why they're still a thing. Not at all.
It depends on the game, but as a whole as long as it's not every 13 steps like the early Tales games, random battles made sense in 2D games. Now no. Give me avoidable enemies, mostly. Still need tension.
Ultimately it comes down to execution and proper balancing for sure
Random Encounter in any RPG: Fun and encourage player to grind.
Random Encounter in Final Fantasy 2: Torture
So many NES/SNES RPGs were egregious with this, makes it to where the ones that aren’t stick out for the better that much more
Megaman Battle Network has a really good randome encounter system. They let you modify the enemies that show up, both by eleminating/reducing the encounters as well as by targeting specific elements, so that you can build to fight sepecifc types of enemies, making fights faster. SneakRun items are consumable items that you can get that reduce encounters, or flat out remove them if you have enough max HP.
SneakRuns are like repels in Pokemon. And speaking of, I heard no mention of repels, which are another thing that Pokemon does really well. If you REALLY dont wanna deal with enemies in an area, put on a repel and breeze through the place super quick.