Her being the Commissioner Gordon as well definitely helped in establishing an immediate tie and reason to interact with one another rather than Bruce seeing Jim's daughter without telling him.
I second that. I mean, I'm surprised he doesn't see her like that in every media considering her saw her grow up. It all just makes Batman out to be a total creep which is NOT what he is.
For some reason, DC just absolutely love doing that to their female characters. I mean, you can write a whole novel just listing the amount of love interests Supergirl has had. Hell, I think she has like 5 in her Rebirth run alone.
Just something female characters especially side characters in comics always suffer through they HAVE to have a romantic relationship with a main cast member
No, in Batman Beyond he had many love but none could distract him from his true love: His mission. That's why none of the relationship worked out. Even Barbara told Terry that to her it was him, her & the street, but to him it was only the street
For those wondering why this is a thing in the first place, Batgirl originally was an adult in her mid 20's when introduced in both the comics and the Batman 1966 series, and Batman and her were closer to the same age, so their flirting wasn't as taboo... Over the course of crisis's and reboots, Barb got younger, and Dick became her love interest. Bruce Timm grew up on that early Batgirl era, and continued it with the show and other projects, but doubled down because "of how wrong it is." YA THINK?! lol
Wasn't that Batwoman that Bruce had a relationship with in the 1966 comics? Batgirl was Batwoman sidekick. At least that is what I read, you sound like u know more about this than I do. Please clarify thanks
@@sonnywoods6846 No the Barbara Gordan Batgirl was created for the 66 show and débuted in the comics around the same time. I use to watch reruns of the 66 show hoping for the Motorcycle to show up in the opening credits cause that let you know Batgirl was in that episode.
@@Fenris30 But the Tv show Batgirl was not a love interest for Batman? Correct Still, the First Batgirl, Betty Kane, was introduced as a Side Kick to Batwoman and was a love interest for Robin. I watched Adam West Batman, and I don't remember Babara Gordon being a love interest for Batman if that is the first time she was ever Batgirl. My overall point was that Barbara Gordon's Batgirl was never a love interest for Bruce Wayne Batman like the Guy above said. It was the Silver Age Batwoman According to Wiki Batwoman was created as a love interest for Batman because to the whole Batman and Robin were Gay thing. They made Batgirl as a love interest for Robin Not for Batman. I know wiki can't be trusted so unless u can tell me and prove wiki is wrong then my overall point is right. Batgirl was never a love interest for Batman. Bruce Timm is just a weirdo
This!. I'm still in the mind of mid 20s, since i don't follow any of the bats comics after. in my mind Barbara is still a fine game for Bruce. But like Marvel, it's a mess. And i hate it
I don't like how the writers play hot potato with Barbara Gordon, tossing her around the bat-family. It's weird and diminishes her character. Barbara Gordon is her own superhero, not an item. She should be treated as such.
@@anotherrandomguy8871You're acting as if they are not already going dirty on each other. Why do you think Batman is ready to jump to take a bullet for Joker and beat Jason to ensure Joker lives another day ?
I’ll admit, I’m not a big fan of Barb x Dick, but the simple fact that they have a romantic history is a pretty big reason why Bruce and Barb should not date. That combined with their age difference and the fact she is the daughter of his best friend makes this happened at all insanely creepy.
Bruce falling in love with Batgirl is the bad ending that causes drama in the bat-family and a lonely end for Bruce. Dick: Your sick. YOUR SICK. Bruce: I don't know - Dick: YOU GOT Barbara ... pregnant. Damian: YOU WHAT!? Jason: You are twice her age *Damian runs out *Jason starts fighting Bruce *Dick and Barbara pulls Bruce and Jason apart *Dick and Barbara couldn't look at each other as Jason yell expletives *All as Damian cries in a room off screen
Degenerates created a term called "wincest". The simple fact they are seen as uncle/niece is WHY it's good for some people. The more depraved and shameless the better for such people
I only accept this relationship in one scenario, like in the LEGO Batman movie, where they are of similar age and don't know each other very well before, otherwise it's just disgusting
I am glad that movie ended with it being platonic. The joke about Batman having been around since he hit the pages in 1939 would push it further into creepy territory.
Batman is also basically a frat bro in that movie so its much more acceptable. I feel like in the mainline comics, sex and romance isnt rlly one of Bruce's prorities
@@emberfist8347 not really. The original Batgirl was created as a love interest for Robin. If I were to write a Batman continuity, I could see myself having Barbara having a celebrity crush on Batman prior to learning his secret identity, maybe even simultaneously as she is dating Dick. I'd then take a note from the DCAU and have Bruce not telling Dick that he knew that Barbara was Batgirl be part of why he left. After Dick stops being Robin and breaks up with Batgirl he founds the Teen Titans and after a while starts dating Starfire. I much prefer this to the Arkham-games were they paired Barbara and Tim for some strange reason (I've always seen her as a "big sister" type of friend to Tim, in large part to the DCAU)
@@misterpinkandyellow74 not in real life, no. It's exactly how it works in fiction though; the writer comes up with a story and if it's compelling, makes sense and have relatable characters or situations, people will enjoy it.
@@ektran4205 Not on the in the actual comics my guy, that was in the time of Long Halloween not anymore, i already know what you are saying but in recent comics she is birth daughter
Batman's shoulder angel: "Don't do it Bruce! She's your friend's daughter, your son's girlfriend, your student, and she's like a daughter to you!" Batman's shoulder demon: "I mean, look at her! She's a hot redhead who wants you!"
When Gravity Falls is unironically more based than established writers. Dipper's infatuation with the older gal is taken seriously as a real feeling he's going through; but when she finds out she's like "OH. Yeah, no thanks. You're really cool, but you're one of my little brothers, I'm not that girl for you. Good luck finding someone though."
It feels like a porn relationship, like a stepfather and stepdaughter thing honestly, it’s a scummy thing for Bruce to be involved in, considering Jim is his friend, I don’t think Jim would approve of it
Jim would probably re-enact the episode Over The Edge if he did that. I mean he makes it clear in Robin: Year One he doesn’t want Barbara dating a Batfamily member.
This is a common misconception but the relationship between Bruce and Barbara in the DCAU was not a thing in The New Batman Adventures. That was first solidified in Batman Beyond when Barbara tells Terry about her past. The clip you guys showed was not from TNBA but from the film Batman Mystery of the Batwoman which came out years after both TNBA and Barman Beyond had ended.
@@BigJonB36 Did you even watch the show? TNBA only had 1 season. And what you said never happened. When Dick was Robin he left because Batman didn't tell him that Barbara was Batgirl and because Dick had become disillusioned with Batman's scare tactics and not treating him with respect. And when he was Nightwing he never left Batman. That was not a thing. He is only mentioned to leave Gotham for Blüdhaven in Batman Beyond.
@@The_Phantasm Correct . Plus Dick refused Barbara's advances by taking his hand away from her when she said something about maybe Dick and her could settle down too one day in that one episode were the batfam thought Bruce was retiring as Batman in TNBA .
I don't ship Batman and Batgirl the only time I find it acceptable when Barbara is already an adult like in the Lego Batman Movie but i stil wouldn't ship them.
Bruce Timm in a recent interview for Batman: Caped Crusader point blank said "The Batman/Barbara relationship in Caped Crusader is purely platonic. Honest!" Timm said. "But the whole 'Bruce Timm is obsessed with Batman/Babs!!!' meme is so obiquitous now that people are going to see what they expect to see. Whatever...". It's nice to know it's not going to be a thing. I watched the first two episodes of Caped Crusader and honestly it's kinda just okay. It's not that memorable.
As long as Bruce Timm keeps up his end of the bargain, things should all be good. He can keep his weird ship to himself and keep it out of Batman canon, and we can enjoy Batman unproblematically. Quid Pro Quo.
Barbara having an unrequited crush on Bruce at first, but then getting over it and moving on is fine, but the two of them as a ship is a complete no-go.
I honestly don’t care about the Jim Gordon angle, I care more about the fact that this is your SON’s girlfriend, you know they love each other but he does this and it’s like Bruce doesn’t give a damn about Dick at all
Ok I really need to make this clear, the comic where Bruce got Barbara pregnant is NOT canon to the DCAU. And I am not saying this in a wish fulfilment way like some people are ignoring the Suicide Squad game from the Arkhamverse. Those comics were not written by anyone who was involved with the making DCAU and exist in a separate continuity.
This is true. How do I know? Because I literally read the comics for which this happens recently 😅. Batman Beyond 2.0 is the specific line in which this happens. And funny enough it happens during the Phantasm line I believe. Ironic considering your pfp
The reason Barbara is not a focus in The Killing Joke comic is because to the joker she’s a means to an end. He shoots her to get to Jim it has nothing to do with her being batgirl heck joker doesn’t even know she’s batgirl (because it was originally out of continuity and she wasn’t batgirl in that story) I feel like Batman cares so deeply for her because of her connection to Dick and Jim. His son’s love and his best friend’s daughter. When I showed my parents the killing joke i literally skipped the first 32 minutes of the movie and it was so much better that way.
Well the other reason was that Alan Moore had too much creative control. DC editorial said “Yeah, cripple the bitch.” Goes to show how little the creative team cared about Barbara.
I am RELIEVED and ecstatic that this is not a thing anymore. I'm glad Bruce Timm confirmed on Reddit that even, after a bit, he thought it didn't work. I'm also glad that Batman Beyond 2.0 is not canon to the DCAU, because it screws up the dynamic between Batman and Dick Grayson, which I always liked in BTAS. I even hate it in The LEGO Batman Movie.
The sad thing? I am pretty sure in the mainline comics way back in the day Dick and Babs had a night of passion together, only for him to give her an invite to his wedding to Starfire the next morning with the wedding being like the next day I believe?? So they have always pulled some off stuff with the Batfamily
Bruce Tim ruined DCAU’s Batgirl…she is supposed to be a daughter figure, she was underage when he recruited her, Tim is literally is promoting grooming dynamics.
This is my favorite video about this topic. Y’all talk about it like normal people and express our frustration so succinctly about him dragging this on. It’s so frustrating and unnecessary.
In Caped Crusader, I was actually shipping her more with Harvey. A kind of enemies to lovers type relationship! Because Harvey came to respect Barbara in the end 😢❤🙌
The only thing I can gather is that because he has the same first name as the main character, he then uses Batman as a surrogate for his own self. Which, honestly, is even creepier in my opinion. As a gal who grew up with Batman, I've always been more of a Batman X Cat Woman shipper myself.
I can understand having a crush on Bruce/Batman, but the fact that Batman would reciprocate in any way is disgusting, and he did a lot more than that...
As pissed off as Jim Gordon was in Arkham Knight when he found out Barbara was working for Batman, just imagine his reaction if she was also schtuping him.
Well since I grew with barely any Batman TAS and then went to Batman Beyond and then the Justice league shows, I remember she said she had something with him, and I was thinking "oh she grew up and went from crush to serious and batman forgot about Wonder Woman with time", But the i saw all of batman TAS and dude... the context is cruel, she was with Dick... I feel that it could work with a good context, but as for right now, no context of these two has ever worked for me.
So great to finally see this (very correct) opinion on batman and barbara having any romantic relationship. It's crazy how disgusting it is and just ruins so much about batman. It's great to hear you guys talk about this, as a young female enjoyer of batman comics, all too often do I see defenders of this relationship and it just upsets me to my core. Great video, you guys deserve all the credit for calling this out in-depth. Here's to hoping this creepy relationship does not have any more developments and is eventually forgotten 💀
I bet Bruce Tim watched the Adam West's Batman show and thought for all that time that Bruce and Babs could work while in the comics at the time their was this huge push for Dick and Babs so that Richard John Greyson is more connected to the Batman books then the Titans books. They nuked his wedding to Koriand'r who was his first long lasting relationship that readers liked and deaged Barbra who was a Libraian and old enough to run for office in the 70's when Dick was like mid to late teens, so it doesn't feel as gross as Babs and Bruce
I agree with on exception. I can imagine the Barbara Gordon from Prime's Caped Crusader dating Bruce Wayne. That version of the character is so different from Batgirl that she is effectively a different character.
Bruh stop the cap 🧢 Bruce Timm is a genius 👏 this is the best ship out there for Bats, they have such a strong connection 💪 ppl just don't get the POTENTIAL between the two, Selina is a bad influence on him Talia took advantage of him, Diana is too much for him, Batwoman is Batwoman, Barbara is the perfect partner to Bruce, they look so good together too 💯 Bruce X Barbs ✊🛳️ I'm obv not serious chill 🤣
Also, Batman and barb are friends, that’s enough reason for him to care so much about being crippled. You don’t need a sex scene between them to establish a bond. Double also, she wasn’t shot BECAUSE OF BATMAN, she was shot to piss of Gordon and break him, so they don’t even need a romance bond to piss Batman off
yes! I very much do not like Dick/Babs because she was aged down for the exact purpose of a relationship with Robin. it icks me out the same way that Raven is deaged in DCAU to be with Damian.
yeah but I feel like its different because that was a bit of a one time thing while this ship and its not constantly pushed not to mention batman got bat girl prego once 💀
@@Elric52 arent the dcau tie in comics not canon tho? cuz most of the tie in comics for every dcau show are very contradictory and most of the time the timelines dont add up.
I'm fine with them being attracted to one another and maybe, *maybe,* if it's set up right the two as a couple but in my opinion it's not something that should be done without a lot of consideration.
I'm fine with Barbara having a one-sided crush on Bruce, but him reciprocating/pursuing the relationship feels wrong. Not that he can't be imperfect or make a mistake, but most versions of Bruce seem too stoic to stoop to that level. The only time I've seen the pairing work is in the Lego Batman movie funnily enough, where Barbara is an adult and the first time Bruce sees her is when she becomes the new comissioner. I can't recall if they actually end up as a couple in the end though. Any time she's younger than him and a part of the Bat Family, it just comes across as him grooming her or taking advantage of her being younger than him.
@@kazekamiha Maybe it's okay that Babs has a childish girly crush on Bruce but him returning the affection is so wrong and unnatural cause they're supposed to be mentor and young underling nothing more.
I’m a black belt in Judo and BJJ. I’ve taught and mentored several children over the years and befriended their parents. There’s something seriously wrong with Tim Bruce if he finds this relationship acceptable.
I always saw every show/movie (other than Mask of The Phantasm /Batman & Mr Freeze: SubZero)in the DCAU after the og BTAS show as only being loosely connected, kinda like the DCEU was,still do after rewatching . There are way too many things that made it feel that way. Bruce/Batman felt,acted and looked younger in TNBA cause the studio wanted a younger Batman hence why we got Batman Beyond. In the og show Bruce/Batman seemed more weathered and had a huge amount of empathy , even for some of his villains, felt horrible and felt like it was his fault that Jim Gordon got put in the hospital /thought about quitting as Batman. Tim grew older in the Static Shock timeline which is the opposite of what happened in The Return of The Joker/Batman Beyond timeline, he actually joined the Titans. Batman didn't date in the JL animated shows cause he thought it was too dangerous if he ever did . He didn't care that much for Barbara in Mystery of the Batwoman cause he cheated on her, which I would think if he ever got with Barbara he would be in love with her and not cheat, it's his best friend's daughter for goodness sake. There's a lot more plot holes/things that made it seem like they were all diff timelines .
Bruce Timm is only to be credit for the character designs and overall visuals of the old Batman TAS. Paul Dini was the writer behind all the episodes we love. Sucks he doesn't get the credit he deserves.
It's honestly so gross, it's weird that the main female character in the bat fam gets constantly passed around between the brothers and their adoptive father. It cheapens her character and makes her less likable. Shes been with bruce, dick, jason and tim. 🤢 Why does she need to have THREE brothers and their dad
Because I grew up with the Teen Titans show, I find it weird the Grayson x Barbara shipping when I see it in the comics, so I don't have that issue with the Barbara x Bruce, although I am very used to Selena x Bruce (even if the comics just click bait us in the rebirth era)
I don’t like the relationship between Bruce and Barbra BUT I like the problems it causes within the bat family. I feel like that dynamic of tension and angst could easily be used with Dick and Jason. It’s a lot easier to forgive your adoptive brother you never got super close to for getting with your on again off again girlfriend(s) than it is your father. I feel like that could work.
Bruce timm once said when he watched the adam west show he thought batgirl and bats were a thing. Always saw the babs and bruce relationship as a big brother little sister with bruce seeing jim as a father figure.
I'm sorry but that's not how humans are. People hook up 😅 I'll never be shocked at someone's friend is dating someone's adult kid. Even if he/she knew them when they was first born. It happens a lot 🤣 when they turn 18... 🤷🏾♀️ I know women & dudes who stared dating someone's kid as soon as they turned 18 😅 it's legal.
as someone who used to be chronically on Twitter (I'm reformed). I've seen some cursed ships in my days, but this... this is the only one that violently disgustes me. This, him not giving btas batman a somewhat happy ending, and the fact that caped crusader was mid are why I'll never agree with people who say he's a top 3 batman writer.
Still to this day I CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHO THOUGHT THE IMPREGNATION AND VIOLENT MISCARRIAGE OF BARBARA WAS A GOOD IDEA
That's the sort of thing that happens when a character exists for a long time. You start using any idea you have.
@@langadube9611 That's a sad truth and what sucks about comics.
I remember the writer of that comic saying he regretted the whole story .
I mean she’s a woman in a super hero comic. That’s practically part of the formula
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Lego Batman had a crush on Barbara too. But that was played for laughs, Barbara was older and they didn't know eachother before.
Plus dick was still a child.
One of my favourite Barbaras, being real
Yea, that's the only one where I let that ship slide...
Other iteration always felt like an entry in the "step family" corn genre
Her being the Commissioner Gordon as well definitely helped in establishing an immediate tie and reason to interact with one another rather than Bruce seeing Jim's daughter without telling him.
@@NoFluthe best genre
Its okay if Barbara has a crush on him or something, but I much prefer Bruce being more of a father figure to her.
No, it's not.
more like a teacher-student relationship
I second that. I mean, I'm surprised he doesn't see her like that in every media considering her saw her grow up. It all just makes Batman out to be a total creep which is NOT what he is.
@@mk_wizard babs was originally the commissioners niece, jim adopted her after her parents died in a car accident
@@ektran4205 Not originally. That was the canon from 1986 to 2011 to explain Jim Gordon not already being a father in Batman: Year One.
Barbara’s had so many love interests within the Bat Family in different continuities, it’s ridiculous
For some reason, DC just absolutely love doing that to their female characters. I mean, you can write a whole novel just listing the amount of love interests Supergirl has had. Hell, I think she has like 5 in her Rebirth run alone.
Just something female characters especially side characters in comics always suffer through they HAVE to have a romantic relationship with a main cast member
@@crowfather0249 supergirl and her house comet
That's one of the reasons I started hating Batgirl
It could have been worse. She could start dating Alfred
What’s worse is the implication in Batman beyond that Barbara was Bruce’s true love. Not Cat woman, not Talia, but Barbara…🤮
I know right? I try to block it from my memory. It’s absolutely disgusting.
No, in Batman Beyond he had many love but none could distract him from his true love: His mission. That's why none of the relationship worked out. Even Barbara told Terry that to her it was him, her & the street, but to him it was only the street
That whole situation was truly sickening.
@@Lindy-kv3wy Batman needs to have 1 love interest at this point, preferably someone like catwoman, or at least someone who’s not a crazy villainous.
Wait what? I remember Bruce talking about selina and that she was his true love that died and then spoke about Talia and a mission with ras 💀💀💀
Batman is like an uncle for batgirl, WHY WOULD THEY WANT THEM TO KISS!?
Crazy shippers that’s why.
@@mrfacestab5758 I'm a shipper and even I hate this ship.
They’re are some really sick people who are wildly successful in this world
But he isn’t an uncle or father.
@@randomlygeneratedname7171 he's a lot older than her in most media and knew her before she was an adult
For those wondering why this is a thing in the first place, Batgirl originally was an adult in her mid 20's when introduced in both the comics and the Batman 1966 series, and Batman and her were closer to the same age, so their flirting wasn't as taboo... Over the course of crisis's and reboots, Barb got younger, and Dick became her love interest. Bruce Timm grew up on that early Batgirl era, and continued it with the show and other projects, but doubled down because "of how wrong it is." YA THINK?! lol
Wasn't that Batwoman that Bruce had a relationship with in the 1966 comics? Batgirl was Batwoman sidekick. At least that is what I read, you sound like u know more about this than I do. Please clarify thanks
@@sonnywoods6846 No the Barbara Gordan Batgirl was created for the 66 show and débuted in the comics around the same time. I use to watch reruns of the 66 show hoping for the Motorcycle to show up in the opening credits cause that let you know Batgirl was in that episode.
@@Fenris30 But the Tv show Batgirl was not a love interest for Batman? Correct
Still, the First Batgirl, Betty Kane, was introduced as a Side Kick to Batwoman and was a love interest for Robin. I watched Adam West Batman, and I don't remember Babara Gordon being a love interest for Batman if that is the first time she was ever Batgirl.
My overall point was that Barbara Gordon's Batgirl was never a love interest for Bruce Wayne Batman like the Guy above said. It was the Silver Age Batwoman
According to Wiki Batwoman was created as a love interest for Batman because to the whole Batman and Robin were Gay thing. They made Batgirl as a love interest for Robin Not for Batman. I know wiki can't be trusted so unless u can tell me and prove wiki is wrong then my overall point is right. Batgirl was never a love interest for Batman. Bruce Timm is just a weirdo
This!. I'm still in the mind of mid 20s, since i don't follow any of the bats comics after. in my mind Barbara is still a fine game for Bruce. But like Marvel, it's a mess. And i hate it
@@sonnywoods6846 I said they flirted, not that she was a love interest.
Barbara has and always should be a partner/pseudo niece to Bruce. Thats how she works best with him
1000%, and if she ends up with anyone form the bat-family, it should be Dick Grayson
@@comicladsin the comics batgirl she not a kid when she first started she an adult
Also he's kinda a father figure/mentor to her too
Exactly! What is WRONG with Bruce Timm and this sick shipping?!
Nope! They work BEST as SEXUAL PARTNERS! 🔥💦💯
I don't like how the writers play hot potato with Barbara Gordon, tossing her around the bat-family. It's weird and diminishes her character. Barbara Gordon is her own superhero, not an item. She should be treated as such.
Excellent point. I’ve thought about this as well, but you crystallized the feeling for me.
Stop having Batman in general smash every single thing that walks on two-legs, even if they are a mass murdering assassin villainess.
i want him to end up with poison ivy
Don't forget the joker😆
@@AtomicConvoy Agreed. if you gave Joker wig and a pair of upper bust, Batman would totally smash with no questions asked.
@@anotherrandomguy8871You're acting as if they are not already going dirty on each other. Why do you think Batman is ready to jump to take a bullet for Joker and beat Jason to ensure Joker lives another day ?
Well, he's Zues... I mean Batman.
I love that Bruce Timm got called out in front of a whole crowd at a panel by one of his cowriters lmao
Lol, I wonder if he was even embarrassed ?
Do you have a link for that?
What did bet called out for
Link?
Is there a video of it?
I’ll admit, I’m not a big fan of Barb x Dick, but the simple fact that they have a romantic history is a pretty big reason why Bruce and Barb should not date.
That combined with their age difference and the fact she is the daughter of his best friend makes this happened at all insanely creepy.
That and the fact is like a father dating his son's ex-girlfriend.
I am not a fan of the pairing either it was a sloppy retcon introduced after Dick was almost married to Kori.
A kori fan I see.
I wish we could have 2 lines for either of them
Throughout Batman's lore I only saw Batman and Batgirl as a uncle and niece. NOTHING MORE! 😤
Based
Facts!
That’s definitely how it SHOULD be🥲
Bruce falling in love with Batgirl is the bad ending that causes drama in the bat-family and a lonely end for Bruce.
Dick: Your sick. YOUR SICK.
Bruce: I don't know -
Dick: YOU GOT Barbara ... pregnant.
Damian: YOU WHAT!?
Jason: You are twice her age
*Damian runs out
*Jason starts fighting Bruce
*Dick and Barbara pulls Bruce and Jason apart
*Dick and Barbara couldn't look at each other as Jason yell expletives
*All as Damian cries in a room off screen
Degenerates created a term called "wincest". The simple fact they are seen as uncle/niece is WHY it's good for some people. The more depraved and shameless the better for such people
I only accept this relationship in one scenario, like in the LEGO Batman movie, where they are of similar age and don't know each other very well before, otherwise it's just disgusting
I am glad that movie ended with it being platonic. The joke about Batman having been around since he hit the pages in 1939 would push it further into creepy territory.
Batman is also basically a frat bro in that movie so its much more acceptable. I feel like in the mainline comics, sex and romance isnt rlly one of Bruce's prorities
even then it's like why can't barbara be in the batfamily without dating them
@@jadaok888 Right now you are literally being that pancake meme. That's a whole different you're talking about unrelated to OPs comment.
Bruce should be interested in Selena, Talia or Diana (depending on the continuity/story). It's Dick that should be interested in Barbara (or Starfire)
Just Starfire. His relationship with Barbara is a sloppy retcon.
@@emberfist8347 not really. The original Batgirl was created as a love interest for Robin.
If I were to write a Batman continuity, I could see myself having Barbara having a celebrity crush on Batman prior to learning his secret identity, maybe even simultaneously as she is dating Dick. I'd then take a note from the DCAU and have Bruce not telling Dick that he knew that Barbara was Batgirl be part of why he left. After Dick stops being Robin and breaks up with Batgirl he founds the Teen Titans and after a while starts dating Starfire.
I much prefer this to the Arkham-games were they paired Barbara and Tim for some strange reason (I've always seen her as a "big sister" type of friend to Tim, in large part to the DCAU)
@@wilhelmtheconquerer6214 Bruce should be interested in just Selina.
Not how attraction works.
@@misterpinkandyellow74 not in real life, no. It's exactly how it works in fiction though; the writer comes up with a story and if it's compelling, makes sense and have relatable characters or situations, people will enjoy it.
Batman X Batmobile forever.
Now I'm imagining a shirtless Batman sensually washing his car
🗿
Its his most stable relationship honestly
I swear she’s been with Bruce, Dick, and Tim. So what’s next Alfred, & Damien?
I think there are a few comics where she and Jason have a sorta THING 😅 so it's only a matter of time...
Hell, I'd take the Alfred ship over the Bruce one...
@@NoFlu 🤢🤮 WAITWHAT...?!?
@@kailanerman5090No DC wisely scuttled that.
@@kailanerman5090😂
I totally don't ship. it's like a dads best friend they call uncle sleeping with they're daughter. it's messed up
@@jamesmata2945 I agree big time!
It's so gross.
Yea i hate this relationship
I think The Killing Joke is a decent 40min movie… because that’s how long the movie is without the stupid “prologue”
Glad to know I'm not the only one who skips it.
@@hordakprime6172 Of course, it’s the only way to truly watch it
I just didn't buy it when I heard about that hare-brained decision.
She's called "Batgirl" and not "Batwoman" for a reason.
Literally, just with 2 points this relationship is weird.
1-She was/is one of your sons
love interest
2-She is gour daughter friend
Also, He's her Mentor. Like, imagine a teacher doing this. Oh. Oh no...
niece not daughter
@@ektran4205 In rebirth forward and the DCAU barbara is her daughter
@@richardcastillos2896 ADOPTED DAUGHTER NOT BIRTH DAUGHTER
@@ektran4205 Not on the in the actual comics my guy, that was in the time of Long Halloween not anymore, i already know what you are saying but in recent comics she is birth daughter
I agree. Batgirl should only be a Nightwing/Robin love interest, NOT Batman’s.
Nah Nightwing needs to be with Starfire she was first.
@@emberfist8347Starfire for Dick and Barb for Jason
@@coolmuzt Not necessarily a Barb and Jason fan. Mostly because I am not a Jason fan in general.
No it should be Starfire there are several Robins.
@@Gerald3merald Batgirl and Robin only works with Tim and Steph because they were dating before she got to be Batgirl.
Batman's shoulder angel:
"Don't do it Bruce! She's your friend's daughter, your son's girlfriend, your student, and she's like a daughter to you!"
Batman's shoulder demon:
"I mean, look at her! She's a hot redhead who wants you!"
Batman's angel: **Has a powerpoint presentation of reasons not to bang Barbara**
Batman's devil: But she's hot tho
When Gravity Falls is unironically more based than established writers. Dipper's infatuation with the older gal is taken seriously as a real feeling he's going through; but when she finds out she's like "OH. Yeah, no thanks. You're really cool, but you're one of my little brothers, I'm not that girl for you. Good luck finding someone though."
It feels like a porn relationship, like a stepfather and stepdaughter thing honestly, it’s a scummy thing for Bruce to be involved in, considering Jim is his friend, I don’t think Jim would approve of it
Jim would probably re-enact the episode Over The Edge if he did that. I mean he makes it clear in Robin: Year One he doesn’t want Barbara dating a Batfamily member.
@@mash9104 The simple fact is Batman and Batgirl are supposed to be mentor and young underling nothing more.
@@gibbs615 agreed
@@mash9104 Good
@@gibbs615 gud
This is a common misconception but the relationship between Bruce and Barbara in the DCAU was not a thing in The New Batman Adventures. That was first solidified in Batman Beyond when Barbara tells Terry about her past. The clip you guys showed was not from TNBA but from the film Batman Mystery of the Batwoman which came out years after both TNBA and Barman Beyond had ended.
Well, they didn't date, but I'm pretty sure she still had a crush on him in the show
bruce's cousins
No, it comes out in the season finale of the first season of TNBA. Dick left because Barbara was in love with Bruce
@@BigJonB36 Did you even watch the show? TNBA only had 1 season. And what you said never happened. When Dick was Robin he left because Batman didn't tell him that Barbara was Batgirl and because Dick had become disillusioned with Batman's scare tactics and not treating him with respect. And when he was Nightwing he never left Batman. That was not a thing. He is only mentioned to leave Gotham for Blüdhaven in Batman Beyond.
@@The_Phantasm Correct . Plus Dick refused Barbara's advances by taking his hand away from her when she said something about maybe Dick and her could settle down too one day in that one episode were the batfam thought Bruce was retiring as Batman in TNBA .
I don't ship Batman and Batgirl the only time I find it acceptable when Barbara is already an adult like in the Lego Batman Movie but i stil wouldn't ship them.
Bruce Timm in a recent interview for Batman: Caped Crusader point blank said "The Batman/Barbara relationship in Caped Crusader is purely platonic. Honest!" Timm said. "But the whole 'Bruce Timm is obsessed with Batman/Babs!!!' meme is so obiquitous now that people are going to see what they expect to see. Whatever...". It's nice to know it's not going to be a thing. I watched the first two episodes of Caped Crusader and honestly it's kinda just okay. It's not that memorable.
they were pretty good first two episodes
I'd rather just rewatch Batman TAS
The last episodes are on par with BtaS imo. Especially the carnival scene but there are a lot of eye rolling character changes.
As long as Bruce Timm keeps up his end of the bargain, things should all be good. He can keep his weird ship to himself and keep it out of Batman canon, and we can enjoy Batman unproblematically. Quid Pro Quo.
GOOD! He better keep it that way from here on too.
This is why Lego Batman is a superior batman.
He is the best batman
Barbara having an unrequited crush on Bruce at first, but then getting over it and moving on is fine, but the two of them as a ship is a complete no-go.
I honestly don’t care about the Jim Gordon angle, I care more about the fact that this is your SON’s girlfriend, you know they love each other but he does this and it’s like Bruce doesn’t give a damn about Dick at all
Agreed, didn't like how Dick was treated. He deserved better.
the relationship started when babs was in college
Comic Bruce would be so pissed at the dcau Bruce. The comic one ships them alot, even got them unofficially married once
He always takes what he can get. Even Catwoman has no hold on him.
If I did that to my son he’d never speak to me again.
Bruce Timm was weird for even making this a thing
Yeah
A minor stain in an otherwise flawless run
@@KaygeeFromNanotrasenwhich annoys me cuz I would’ve been perfect without it
Exactly my point
Nah, he is NORMAL for making this a thing! Batman did NOTHING WRONG! 😤🔥💯
I think Barbra having a crush on him is understandable but Batman willingly dating her is as yall said heinous!!!
Just found this channel 20 minutes ago and I feel like im back in highschool talking nerdy with my friends. Its great. Keep it up!
Exactly what we’re going for. Thanks for hopping on the journey👊❤️
Am in High-school so I love this!!
Videos like this make me want y’all to have a podcast. I could listen to rants like this at work all day
Def in our plans for the future🤝😁
You have a great workplace if they allow you to listen to podcasts while working 😎
I would so listen to a podcast from these guys
Ok I really need to make this clear, the comic where Bruce got Barbara pregnant is NOT canon to the DCAU. And I am not saying this in a wish fulfilment way like some people are ignoring the Suicide Squad game from the Arkhamverse. Those comics were not written by anyone who was involved with the making DCAU and exist in a separate continuity.
This is true. How do I know? Because I literally read the comics for which this happens recently 😅. Batman Beyond 2.0 is the specific line in which this happens. And funny enough it happens during the Phantasm line I believe. Ironic considering your pfp
And? It was still approved, written, illustrated and printed.
@@cubethepixel3025 But it's NOT part of the DCAU.
@@cubethepixel3025 But it's NOT canon to the DCAU.
@@cubethepixel3025thank god it not in earth prime main canon
The reason Barbara is not a focus in The Killing Joke comic is because to the joker she’s a means to an end. He shoots her to get to Jim it has nothing to do with her being batgirl heck joker doesn’t even know she’s batgirl (because it was originally out of continuity and she wasn’t batgirl in that story) I feel like Batman cares so deeply for her because of her connection to Dick and Jim. His son’s love and his best friend’s daughter. When I showed my parents the killing joke i literally skipped the first 32 minutes of the movie and it was so much better that way.
Well the other reason was that Alan Moore had too much creative control. DC editorial said “Yeah, cripple the bitch.” Goes to show how little the creative team cared about Barbara.
Anytime I've rewatched The Killing Joke that's exactly what I do
I am RELIEVED and ecstatic that this is not a thing anymore. I'm glad Bruce Timm confirmed on Reddit that even, after a bit, he thought it didn't work. I'm also glad that Batman Beyond 2.0 is not canon to the DCAU, because it screws up the dynamic between Batman and Dick Grayson, which I always liked in BTAS.
I even hate it in The LEGO Batman Movie.
What do you hate about The LEGO Batman Movie?
@@trevturp6891He is sayin that in lego Batman the love interest of Bruce is barbara
@@trevturp6891Everything
@@richardcastillos2896Yeah but atleast in that movie its mostly played up for laughts.
My headcannon is that in Batman Beyond, Dick is on Tamaran with Starfire
The sad thing? I am pretty sure in the mainline comics way back in the day Dick and Babs had a night of passion together, only for him to give her an invite to his wedding to Starfire the next morning with the wedding being like the next day I believe?? So they have always pulled some off stuff with the Batfamily
That was a weird comic that completely assassinated Nightwing's character, thankfully it wasn't a big thing and no longer canon
@@Michelle-pd3ke It actually is as they are still pushing Babs and Dick. That comic started it.
@@Michelle-pd3ke But it still makes me wonder what the heck were the writers thinking
Bruce Tim ruined DCAU’s Batgirl…she is supposed to be a daughter figure, she was underage when he recruited her, Tim is literally is promoting grooming dynamics.
This is my favorite video about this topic. Y’all talk about it like normal people and express our frustration so succinctly about him dragging this on. It’s so frustrating and unnecessary.
Meet the Waynes 💀
Joker got the dirt frfr
I always found that weird I remember watching Batman killing joke and when they smashed, I was like wait what?
You cut out the “Bat” and it just become “man should not date girl” and that sums up my feelings on the matter.
Is she legal though? Batman's like 30 right? Barbara is 20 something.
@@beneficent2557 didn't he know her as a kid when he was an adult? It gives groomer vibes.
The reasons are very simple: 1) Ew, gross. 2) Ew, gross. 3) EW, THAT'S FUCKING GROSS
Bruce Tim: I’m going to pretend I didn’t hear that
I love how casual and funny this discussion was! Definitely just feels like friends shooting the shit about comics and I really find that entertaining
In Caped Crusader, I was actually shipping her more with Harvey. A kind of enemies to lovers type relationship! Because Harvey came to respect Barbara in the end 😢❤🙌
I also loved there bickering🤧
Someone should just contact Bruce Tim and ask him why when Bruce and Catwoman I take care is the better choice
It’s so weird thar Bruce and Barbara was in a relationship💀
I know! They are supposed to be mentor and young underling nothing more.
i think the joker and harley is worse. basically broke a feeble minded doctor.
@gibbs615 you are obsessed creepo incel
The only thing I can gather is that because he has the same first name as the main character, he then uses Batman as a surrogate for his own self. Which, honestly, is even creepier in my opinion.
As a gal who grew up with Batman, I've always been more of a Batman X Cat Woman shipper myself.
same or Wonder Woman Talia... not so much.
I can understand having a crush on Bruce/Batman, but the fact that Batman would reciprocate in any way is disgusting, and he did a lot more than that...
As pissed off as Jim Gordon was in Arkham Knight when he found out Barbara was working for Batman, just imagine his reaction if she was also schtuping him.
Well since I grew with barely any Batman TAS and then went to Batman Beyond and then the Justice league shows, I remember she said she had something with him, and I was thinking "oh she grew up and went from crush to serious and batman forgot about Wonder Woman with time", But the i saw all of batman TAS and dude... the context is cruel, she was with Dick... I feel that it could work with a good context, but as for right now, no context of these two has ever worked for me.
This relationship is terrible
Starfire 4:37
Batman should have turned he into another Robin.
"Oh no, another Robin died. Time for me to kidnap another child."
this whole batman dating batgirl just seems weird to me in my opinion.
So great to finally see this (very correct) opinion on batman and barbara having any romantic relationship. It's crazy how disgusting it is and just ruins so much about batman. It's great to hear you guys talk about this, as a young female enjoyer of batman comics, all too often do I see defenders of this relationship and it just upsets me to my core. Great video, you guys deserve all the credit for calling this out in-depth. Here's to hoping this creepy relationship does not have any more developments and is eventually forgotten 💀
10:32 you had my curiosity. now you have my attention
I bet Bruce Tim watched the Adam West's Batman show and thought for all that time that Bruce and Babs could work while in the comics at the time their was this huge push for Dick and Babs so that Richard John Greyson is more connected to the Batman books then the Titans books.
They nuked his wedding to Koriand'r who was his first long lasting relationship that readers liked
and deaged Barbra who was a Libraian and old enough to run for office in the 70's when Dick was like mid to late teens, so it doesn't feel as gross as Babs and Bruce
I agree with on exception. I can imagine the Barbara Gordon from Prime's Caped Crusader dating Bruce Wayne. That version of the character is so different from Batgirl that she is effectively a different character.
I think Bruce Tim just saw too much of the 60s Batman show that introduced Batgirl, in that, she was played by Yvonne Craig who was in her 30s.
I remember watching the movie with my brother, and THAT scene happening... it was like a jumpscare in a horror movie. We were TRAMUATIZED.
Truly one of the worst scenes ever😭
Bruh stop the cap 🧢 Bruce Timm is a genius 👏 this is the best ship out there for Bats, they have such a strong connection 💪 ppl just don't get the POTENTIAL between the two, Selina is a bad influence on him Talia took advantage of him, Diana is too much for him, Batwoman is Batwoman, Barbara is the perfect partner to Bruce, they look so good together too 💯 Bruce X Barbs ✊🛳️
I'm obv not serious chill 🤣
Bruh you had me up till the very end there I'm not gonna lie 😂
They had a Barbara Gordon romance thing in the Lego Batman too
Can't wait for when you guys have like 2 million subs I'll come back like _"lads... you've grown"_
Also, Batman and barb are friends, that’s enough reason for him to care so much about being crippled. You don’t need a sex scene between them to establish a bond. Double also, she wasn’t shot BECAUSE OF BATMAN, she was shot to piss of Gordon and break him, so they don’t even need a romance bond to piss Batman off
Wonder Woman & batman they are just good friends I don’t like shipping members of the trinity at all
BAT RIZZ
The only one Batman really belongs with is Catwoman anyway.
@@gibbs615wholeheartedly agree on this one.
@@Razor-gx2dq Right on!👍🏿
Im actually ok with the relationship as it really can be used for alot.
How many people remember/know that Barbara was originally closer to Batman's age when she was introduced in the Adam West series?
Well, things have moved on since Adam West, am I wrong? Nowadays, she first met Batman when she was about Dick Grayson’s age.
@@alexanderchristopher6237 And that's the other thing: her being the first Robin's age only began in BTAS.
yes! I very much do not like Dick/Babs because she was aged down for the exact purpose of a relationship with Robin. it icks me out the same way that Raven is deaged in DCAU to be with Damian.
@@tUVsproAll Indeed the preferred Titans pairings should be Dick/Starfire and BBRae.
I mean to fair DCAU Nightwing is just as bad since Catwoman was interested in him and they were flirting/dating.
yeah but I feel like its different because that was a bit of a one time thing while this ship and its not constantly pushed not to mention batman got bat girl prego once 💀
@@Elric52 arent the dcau tie in comics not canon tho? cuz most of the tie in comics for every dcau show are very contradictory and most of the time the timelines dont add up.
DCAU Nightwing wasn’t flirting/dating Catwoman.
@@trevturp6891 watch The New Batman Adventures.
@@trevturp6891 watch The New Batman Adventures
I'm fine with them being attracted to one another and maybe, *maybe,* if it's set up right the two as a couple but in my opinion it's not something that should be done without a lot of consideration.
I'm fine with Barbara having a one-sided crush on Bruce, but him reciprocating/pursuing the relationship feels wrong. Not that he can't be imperfect or make a mistake, but most versions of Bruce seem too stoic to stoop to that level. The only time I've seen the pairing work is in the Lego Batman movie funnily enough, where Barbara is an adult and the first time Bruce sees her is when she becomes the new comissioner. I can't recall if they actually end up as a couple in the end though.
Any time she's younger than him and a part of the Bat Family, it just comes across as him grooming her or taking advantage of her being younger than him.
@@kazekamiha Maybe it's okay that Babs has a childish girly crush on Bruce but him returning the affection is so wrong and unnatural cause they're supposed to be mentor and young underling nothing more.
@@RacingSnails64too stoic... Right... Meet Catwoman, poison ivy, Harley Quinn, there's always a continuity where he bangs one of them
I’m a black belt in Judo and BJJ. I’ve taught and mentored several children over the years and befriended their parents. There’s something seriously wrong with Tim Bruce if he finds this relationship acceptable.
There's definitely a flirtatious vibe between them in the 66 show too.
9:25 I think it's him weirdly using Batman as his self insert because they're both called Bruce.
I think so unfortunately...
I always saw every show/movie (other than Mask of The Phantasm /Batman & Mr Freeze: SubZero)in the DCAU after the og BTAS show as only being loosely connected, kinda like the DCEU was,still do after rewatching . There are way too many things that made it feel that way. Bruce/Batman felt,acted and looked younger in TNBA cause the studio wanted a younger Batman hence why we got Batman Beyond. In the og show Bruce/Batman seemed more weathered and had a huge amount of empathy , even for some of his villains, felt horrible and felt like it was his fault that Jim Gordon got put in the hospital /thought about quitting as Batman. Tim grew older in the Static Shock timeline which is the opposite of what happened in The Return of The Joker/Batman Beyond timeline, he actually joined the Titans. Batman didn't date in the JL animated shows cause he thought it was too dangerous if he ever did . He didn't care that much for Barbara in Mystery of the Batwoman cause he cheated on her, which I would think if he ever got with Barbara he would be in love with her and not cheat, it's his best friend's daughter for goodness sake. There's a lot more plot holes/things that made it seem like they were all diff timelines .
EXACTLY! As much as I love tue DC Animated stuff, SCREW BRUCE TIMM FOR PUSHING THIS SHIT
In Caped Crusader, if he's the same age as Barbara, who cares if they date? Nothing wrong with it if they're the same age.
No, I'm not a fan of Bruce Barbra in DCAU.
I really love the relationship, and I hope it continues further
This will probably be a hot take but I don't care much for Bruce Timm. Mostly cause he slandered Knightfall and Gargoyles.
He did WHAT!?
Bruce Timm is only to be credit for the character designs and overall visuals of the old Batman TAS.
Paul Dini was the writer behind all the episodes we love. Sucks he doesn't get the credit he deserves.
The one sin Goat Timm has committed, although I'm sure he knows it
It's honestly so gross, it's weird that the main female character in the bat fam gets constantly passed around between the brothers and their adoptive father. It cheapens her character and makes her less likable. Shes been with bruce, dick, jason and tim. 🤢 Why does she need to have THREE brothers and their dad
There should never be a world where Barbara Gordon is in a relationship with Batman
Honestly I just hate when they make batgirl a love interest because she gives me more big sister vibes
I've been saying this for YEEEAAARS! 😂😂
What a great video
Been watching you for years bro, you’re a big inspiration. Thanks for watching👊
@@comiclads That honestly warms my heart, man. Thank you! 💜
Because I grew up with the Teen Titans show, I find it weird the Grayson x Barbara shipping when I see it in the comics, so I don't have that issue with the Barbara x Bruce, although I am very used to Selena x Bruce (even if the comics just click bait us in the rebirth era)
I don’t like the relationship between Bruce and Barbra BUT I like the problems it causes within the bat family. I feel like that dynamic of tension and angst could easily be used with Dick and Jason. It’s a lot easier to forgive your adoptive brother you never got super close to for getting with your on again off again girlfriend(s) than it is your father. I feel like that could work.
"Joker you're going down! You're a sick freak!"
"You got your son's gf pregnant..."
"Carry on fellow citizen."
Bruce timm once said when he watched the adam west show he thought batgirl and bats were a thing. Always saw the babs and bruce relationship as a big brother little sister with bruce seeing jim as a father figure.
@@alangold4658 Well he was obviously mistaken back then🙄
@gibbs615 Oh no doubt bro that's why you need paul dini with him to not do that
@@alangold4658 Good idea
I'm sorry but that's not how humans are. People hook up 😅 I'll never be shocked at someone's friend is dating someone's adult kid. Even if he/she knew them when they was first born. It happens a lot 🤣 when they turn 18... 🤷🏾♀️ I know women & dudes who stared dating someone's kid as soon as they turned 18 😅 it's legal.
Merlin needs to tell the story
as someone who used to be chronically on Twitter (I'm reformed). I've seen some cursed ships in my days, but this... this is the only one that violently disgustes me. This, him not giving btas batman a somewhat happy ending, and the fact that caped crusader was mid are why I'll never agree with people who say he's a top 3 batman writer.
100,000 subscriber channel material right here
I don’t need a video to convince me. I agree with you %100
Heyyyy how are my two comic cuties doin?
i agree. it sick. sick i tell ya.
she should be dating the joker. id watch that movie.