God should have been THE form for Super. Also the fact God is skinnier compliments Toriyama's new artstyle of drawing characters skinnier than he did before. By the time UI came along enough time would have passed.
@@NigelsPad And God was bringing new features that can make combat more diverse: better stamina, healing and make the ki unsensable; while Blue is just a simple powerboost
The problem was the power scaling. They achieve "God ki", take it to a super saiyan level, and still have a hard time fighting people. Didn't make sense
God Ki ain’t the issue, it’s whoever wrote Super Toyotaro/Toriyama clearly having a hard time thinking of ways to beat villains and keep the story interesting without Introducing a new form.. They fr could’ve just removed SSJBlue and its variations and simply made grades for the OG SSJGod, then they could skip Mastered UI, have Goku instead go from UI Sign to True UI then introduce MUI in the future after True UI, this would make it so MUI is actually Mastered Ultra Instinct instead of a half baked and undercut by True UI Omen.
Frieza had never trained in his life and already had a power level over 120 million, Goku Black and Zamasu are God’s one of which has Goku’s body, Jiren, Toppo and others have trained and gone through their own comparable struggles to get where they are, Moro gets stronger through absorbing, Gas and Granolah wished to be the strongest at the cost of their lifespans. You're acting like they're struggling against random fodder rather than people with justifiable reasons for being as strong as they are.
@@badazzkaz People have the laziest critiques of Super. I think Super has weak writing with a lack of character focus that Z had, but people just make stuff up because they either haven't seen it in a while or just want to participate in the hate wagon. Ultra Instinct is probably the most brilliant form to date which calls back to OG Dragon Ball and for me makes up for Toriyama's laziness with Blue. I also think the Moro arc is massively slept on because people can't get past the allusions to previous arcs they take as laziness.
The forms these days feel like the fan fictions we'd find in the late 2000's when googling things like "super saiyan 5" etc, between UI, UE, Beast, Orange Piccolo, it's all stuff that would've looked fake back then
Bruv I honestly wish the fan fictions at least would've been given an opportunity cuz sum designs looked sick, my gripe with dB is not seeing these monkeys with different hair styles when they went God mode
@@ReBolt590 there was still a big martial arts aspect with goku and krillin training under roshi, goku traveling around the land meeting various martial artists and then participating in a martial arts tournament. there was a lot of goofiness like lazers and a fat fart man but there were real spectacular fights like goku vs krillin, goku vs tien
At the same time though. Goku and vegeta got their SSJ1 by themselves without any outside help. God was made from a ritual which I guess makes sense, but I don’t hate blue considering they already had super saiyan and god which is just a combination of the two and they were being trained by literal gods and angels to achieve that transformation
@@ggemcee5903 ssjbe ssjgui ui mui perfect blue muisusano true ui beast just a lot of bullshit forms for no reason dawg ssjg and blue where fine but none of this shi makes sense anymore but hey atlest its fun
I really loved GT for how Super Saiyan 4 was portrayed. Instead of the Super route where they'd unlock a new form and it became redundant quickly, 4 was the peak of power in GT and nothing above it- minus Fusion of course. It just felt like this immovable power whereas a godly state of Super Saiyan just felt... average.
@Santzu Because he was a child still, after he first unlocked SS4 it should have permanently reverted his body back to an adult especially since people were tired of kid Goku
@@DADRB0B55 Yeah because Goku was definitely a normal kid right? GT kid Goku is still a multi star buster, he should not need to transform to lift a building
on the contrary i feel no one has a bad thing to say about SSJ4 whereas to me i feel like i should scrutinize it in some form SSJ4 is mostly praised for returning saiyans back to their primal roots, but tbh besides its origins in the Great Ape forms, its got very little difference again w the Super forms w being "another stronger one". Functionally its just a way to keep Goku in his adult form again and alot of Oozaru elements arent really utilized. Secondly, I feel that returning to "saiyan roots" is a misstep in the characters of both Goku and Vegeta. Like they use their genetics and pretenatural talents to get stronger sure, but by now hardly any part of their growth is related to being a Saiyan. Goku spent his whole childhood adventures barely living up to any Saiyan and hes so much stronger than any Saiyan in both GT and Super that his lineage doesnt even matter anymore. Same goes for Vegeta really, that royal blood hasnt done him good since the Saiyan saga, every other meaningful step in his growth was outside the Saiyan heritage. The martial arts angle of post Broly DB Super of largely similar power levels, but different mindsets like UI and UE are probably exactly what i wouldve done and what i feel r perfect ways to progress either goku or vegeta.
I think they should have given Vegeta SSG the traditional way through the ritual to fight resurrected Frieza, it was dumb there was no build up to blue other than “training”
The people who work on Dragon Ball Super (at least the show and manga) saw that Z introduced a new SS form every arc, copied that, but didn’t understand why, and didn’t understand that they need to show the training they went through.
And not only that. Every sayan transformation was a result of an emotional trauma. Somebody had to DIE so that a transformation could happen. The stakes where much higher before
Vegeta getting SS4 in Super would be a nice way to bring it back. Goku sticks to the godly path whereas Vegeta, who more clearly remembers his heritage and time on planet Vegeta, taps into his bloodline along with Ultra Ego, to match the main two facets of his character. His Saiyan pride, and his pride in himself
@@Subpar1O1Vegeta shouldn't even have that much pride anymore after the Buu saga. GT has many flaws but at least they understood they couldn't go back in developing the characters. Super doesn't take the fans seriously enough to actually care to progress the story. It's sad, really.
What I liked about GT is that ssj4 was the best form, but Goku would still be losing to villains even in that form. The way to overcome villains wasn’t to get a form stronger than ssj4, it was with strategy & the idea that everybody has a weakness. Figuring out the villain’s weakness & exploiting it is usually what gave the win. Not including fusion of course. They could go back to beating villains with that recipe so forms don’t become monotonous
It's not like Goku already fought energy-absorbing androids in the cell saga and should realize Super 17 has that ability quickly instead of repeatedly using ki blasts and not even trying melee attacks.
This is really tough. Dragon Ball is about self improvement, with becoming the best being the prize for that. When you lose the prize, the message gets a bit lost. I personally think ToP played with the idea better by making Jiren represent Goku’s goal of becoming the strongest, but Goku rejects Jiren’s method by doing it alone, so he requires help to win. With GT it missed that extra layer of subtext to connect back to the premise
That’s correct, but also realize that new forms=new merchandise. They can’t sell toys based off of techniques & maneuvers, but they can sell another Goku with purple hair. The bulk of Dragon Ball profit that Toei rakes in will always be in the toys, statues, etc.
Agreed. To me that was classic Dragon Ball - you kind of had to outsmart your opponent, master a new technique and then use it wisely. It wasn't just "who is stronger now?".
@@eeeeee4414 People are just commenting it on every single video now. Don’t get me wrong, love Akira and everything he’s done for us but I can tell when these things slowly begin to shift where people only comment it because they know it’ll get them likes
Using someone's death to get likes on videos is absolutely fucked up and all but they get nothing from saying "Rest in peace Toriyama" on comments. No fame whatsoever just a random comment on a random video.
Agreed. Unique abilities are more interesting vs just can destroy planets easier than they already could. But only if the abilities actually matter and aren't the guy "I've restrained the enemy" the enemy just powers through it by screaming really loud.
I mean, we still got a lot of techniques too. Goku learn Ultra Instinct, Mafuba, and briefly learns hakai in the manga's goku black arc , while Vegeta learns spirit fission, instant transmission, Ultra Ego, etc. Honesly, there was more of a focus on techniques here than in DBZ. The only techniques goku learns in DBZ is spirit bomb and instant transmision, and vegeta exclusively only learns new forms instead of techniques in DBZ
@@thebrightestknight6714 goku does not learn hakai he tries to do it once and fails and never tries again, mafuba he learn, used once and never tried it again, ui as a technique was great, but they gave it white hair and made it a transformation so its not a technique in the end. vegeta (not only all those things are from manga and the video is about the anime) but he doesnt know how to use instant transmision, he used it once and said he would not be capable of doing it again, spirit fission was used once and was just a plot device to save earth, 0 use after that fight i even forgot he had that until now, ego is a transformation, instead of spamming blue vegeta now spams ego, in the end its the same shit but diferent colour (the more damage i take stronger i get is bad since vegeta ends up taking to much damage and passes out). so yeah we have almost no techniques and too many forms that are all to similar, just a diferent hair colour.
The annoying thing here is Super wrote the solution, and then ignored it. It introduced Beerus, Whis, and the other universes and never really capitalized on it. Only 2 story arcs had other universes as threats, Goku surpassed Beerus like 3 times and the goal post keeps moving, most universes have now been made irrelevent, Frieza is the next villian again, and Beerus and Whis seem to be getting close to being surpassed (with Goku beating Moro who has Merus’ abilities and strength). So every concept it added to prevent this issue it messed up or ignored
@nerdcorner2680 I think you're totally right. I also feel they expanded the world, only to quickly then shrink it all. They limited Universe 7 with the "28 planets with life" comment (which is absurd); and they brought out the supposed toughest fighters of most of the universes, with only one having fighters actually strong enough - too strong, honestly - to challenge 7's best. And with them even approaching/surpassing the destroyers, I half expect them to introduce someone above Zeno who oversees multiple groups of universes lol. Goku getting as strong as a destroyer should be an eternal goal that he never achieves; or if he does, it should be the end of the series. In the meantime, they should try and rediscover that you can have the heroes fight and overcome a foe even if they aren't at the same power; that actually makes it more exciting (Zamasu stuff almost gets it right).
@@nerdcorner2680 A month late, but that isn't true about Beerus. The FANS kept power scaling Goku to be beyond Beerus because of that hypothetical scale Akira said during the Battle of gods interview way back. There's never been any source canon of Goku surpassing Beerus. Is it a goal post? Maybe. You could say that. Though I wouldn't. But at the end of the day, Beerus' power has never been fully shown during now or after the BoG fight. It always falls under speculation.
@@will_9910 ToP it is stated many times that Jiren is stronger than Gods, when Goku surprasses him Beerus admits Goku surpassed him and then all the Gods stand in respect for the man that surpassed them. That is beyond 100% confirmed
Its just ridiculous, the lack of originality. You can say what you want about Dragon Ball GT, but at least they invented a truly original new form, directly related to saiyan's ozaru form. Now its just changing wigs
The rapidness of the new forms is literally just to sell merch. That’s why they’re just palette swaps. It’s simple, change the hair color from yellow to blue to silver. And fans eat that shit up.
When I saw the movie where Goku got Saiyan god I truly thought it was going to be something like "they are going to make Goku start from scratch but with God ki now" Little did I know that transformation lasted that 1 movie and then they turned it into blue , to then turn it into blue with kaioken to then turn it into silver with ultra instinct and then pink They really wanted to sell the toys and destroyed the logic of the previous show because of it
Maybe this is just me being cynical, but I think a big contributing factor to why we have so many new forms in Super is to help with toy sales. Edit: Good to know I'm not being cynical.
It also keeps, let’s face it, stupid people invested in the series. Why bother with good writing when the fanbase will spawn a million videos overnight about “how strong is the new form? Can he beat Beerus?? What’s the multiplier??? Does this colour represent the rage of a Tibetan monk when his balls itch just before he reaches enlightenment????” It’s pathetic. Consoom new form and get excited for next form.
@@sigiligusok and? Do you seriously think Dragon Ball would be as entertaining if they were all constantly base? Goku getting UI broke the internet for a reason. The forms are interesting. True they didn’t know how to handle moving from God to Blue correctly but thats like the one issue
@@XenoVerse_Goku there are several different Dragon Ball continuities, so it is canon. the question is which canon does it fit into? the answer is GT canon since Goku uses the Dragon Fist in both stories. it also fits nicely into the 10 year time skip between the fight with Kid Buu and the fight with Uub.
@brandonking5111 yeah he is just calling out the stereotypical reply canontards always come up with, which is funny because they honestly don’t even know the real “canon” as much as they want to claim usually they skipped the OG dragonball & only watched Z & super.
Its so annoying just how close a lot of these forms get to being really good. Dragon ball forms now need to be unique to stand out from the rest, and have a reason to exist. Super never quite hits both at the same time and it’s so frustrating. God - needs a ritual to get to, which clashes with Goku’s character, which is great. Makes the form unique by using God Ki which is great. But then God Ki never gets any depth, and Goku has regular ki in God form…for some reason. The manga and ToP anime try to make it a little bit more unique, but it is too little too late Blue - Anime gives it perfect Ki control, which a few times becomes relavent, but for the most part becomes a non factor. God + Super Saiyan is also enough to warrent its’ existance. Manga does it a lot better, with Perfected SSB being one of the coolest parts of Super and really sells the concept. But it overstays its’ welcome and gets boring in both by not keeping up with these concepts UI - the transformation itself doesn’t make any sense, but it honestly doesn’t matter because the focus is on the technique itself. The imperfected UI is actually a lot cooler because the lack of perfect movement makes the perfect movement noticable. When every attack is supposed to be natural in Mastered UI, it stops feeling that way (just compare MUI Goku vs Jiren and Goku vs Frieza and point out what the difference is). Ultra Ego - By far best transformation in Super, finally connects Vegeta to Beerus (the whole premise of Super), great gimmic, ties into his character arc perfectly Beast Gohan - worst transformation in Super. No explaination on it, no interesting gimmic with it (the manga already turned the anger of it into a joke), it’s just bland
Also didn’t mention all the super gimmicy transformations like Rosé, Blue Evolution, and Trunks’ but honestly all of them are such blatant gimmics that impact nothing that they are not worth going any deeper with
I agree with you on all of this. SSG is used up even within its own first fight by running out, and Goku just has the strength now. It is just another Divine Water or one of many random power ups Goku was given in Dragon Ball before transformations. It became so thing later to use a little but for its speed, but it realy pointless now. Blue just happens and continues to happen it is just SSJ but blue to keep up with the higher power levels of new foes. Evolution oh man do they like to just poison their own supply with this one. Goku has Ultra Instinct and we are being told all these details about it as Goku perfects it vs Jiren. Then Vegeta break through his limits to Evolution and....its SSB UI....now its not actualy that but at the time it just felt like SSB was doing the same as UI was doing and then.....just never even hinted or used ever again not even in the Manga. Like why even bother with the new form if it means nothing. Ultra Ego feels new and interesting. Ui felt new and interesting until it wasn't and now it has gotten dumb. Beast.....ugh I switched the movie off at that point and stopped watching. It has gone far too far. Getting 2 new Piccolo forms in 20 minutes and boom Gohan pulls out random power up and it pretends to redo SSJ2 first transformation.....my good will is pretty done at this point. Not to mention we are just doing colours now "Blue, Golden. Orange. Rose" UI and Ultra Ego is about the best so far before we just go into more moods. "Ultra Hungry" "Ultra sleepy"
I like Mui Goku and ultra ego Vegeta transformations the best I think we don't need more transformations but better fights and storytelling.@@nerdcorner2680
@@JotonioIIIhonestly, they should’ve swapped Golden for Black in the RoF and ToP arcs, and THEN when Black Frieza would show up, it would instead be Golden Frieza
Honestly the SSG form was a missed opportunity to let non-Saiyans catch up a bit in power. I like the idea that the first God form Goku attains is a completely new form detached from Super Saiyan, and throughout Super he can try and combine the two ability (which creates the blue form) I don’t think there’s too many forms, I just think they feel way too easily gained now. It should be more of a struggle for these power ups to happen but they honestly seem like random chance.
Yeah like the Saiyin's from the 6th universe?!? In less than a year's time in the Super story, 6th Universe Saiyans go from not knowing what Super Saiyan is to being able to transform forms 1 (Champa/Beerus tournament) and then later 2 (ToP arc) in literally minutes.
@@arezhik7774 I really liked the idea of them in theory being much more developed power wise in general. It was said repeatedly that Saiyans were getting stronger with each generation in early DBZ and repeated in the Broly movie, it's why Freeza feared an uprising, so the idea of a version of the Saiyans who interbred instead of conquered, evolving and living and fighting, was cool to see. It's makes plenty sense that the average low-class U6 Saiyan should be stronger than Captain Ginyu and the like. But the ridiculous way they tried to explain SSJ in two completely different ways sucks. Cabba needed to be beaten to near death and have his home planet threatened by a stranger who seemed volatile just from him asking for some pointers on what a Super Saiyan is, so that made sense - that being all the emotion and rage needed for SSJ for U6 is neat, it makes it seem like they ARE more evolved. But then... Cabba just explains roughly what his energy felt like at the time, and Caulifla instantly goes Super Saiyan without being so much as passingly insulted? Then, seconds later for no reason at all, she goes SSJ2 while deflecting an energy attack from Kale? It got so out of hand so fast. The manga handled them better, but showed Caulifla's transformation off screen. She also I'm fairly sure never got SSJ2, neither did Cabba. I don't remember exactly. Kale being akin to Broly and not following the rules was also shown better there.
Bro wtf are you talking about. You said :i dont think that too many forms, of course that are too many forms thats the point of the video,let me remind you the forms(ssg,ssb,ssbk,ssbe,ssrose,ui,mui,pui,tui,ue,orange piccolo,beast gohan)isnt that too many for you??
@@Man1999-cy8ye Variants of forms don't really count. There's God, Blue/Rose/Evolution, UI, and UE. Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan? Never heard of them. Must be from a fanfic. There would never be forms that silly in official material. /s In general the new forms did just come around too quickly and not do enough on their own. God shoulda been used way more, Blue shoulda came way later to give it time to shine. UI and UE I think were actually handled fine. "Orange", ugh, Piccolo is a neat idea in theory, but it just really, really needed a better fucking name. It also would have worked much better if that movie had been actually restricted to being a purely Piccolo movie without Gohan and the others being shoved in last second. Let Piccolo save the world on his own and improve while doing it. Beast Gohan is inexcusable bullshit which should not exist. The long and short of it is I mostly agree
I have a love hate relationship with the forms cause I liked how originally the super saiyan forms had grades and each grade had their own draw backs and advantages But I honestly don’t see or feel the difference in super saiyan blue from just regular super saiyan’s. To many of the forms are just “it makes you stronger and nothing else like beast gohan, I love gohan but it’s just like…..what? Like what does this do? But here comes the love cause broly’s forms are what actually feels like a natural saiyan evolution, harnessing the power of the great ape while in human form was honestly one of the most delicious bits of saiyan lore we’ve ever gotten cause the great ape form rocks and GT was right to incorporate it into the super forms. And things like ultra instinct & ego, they actually operate on different mentalities and actively changes how the user fights. With ultra instinct being more evasive and ego being a giant pain sponge
@@SCHMALLZZZ the fuck? “The visible spectrum for humans falls between ultraviolet light and infrared light. Scientists estimate that humans can distinguish up to 10 million colors”
I think super saiyan blue, super saiyan god, and rose are unnecessary. Its just too many colors man. It feels like they exploited the idea of changing hair colors. Too many colors. I wish they kept it simple. Like ssj1,2 and 3 and Ultra instinct as the final form
@@tobin2.0Nah just nuke the god bullshit and go straight to ultra instinct. Ego and Instinct fit Goku and Vegetas characters. The god xformations are garbage.
In the original manga almost every 2 years there was a new transformation for the Saiyan's. Super Saiyan came out in 1991, Super Saiyan 2 came in 1993, Super Saiyan 3 appeared in 1994(1 year transformation). So this is just consistency with the series especially going from Super Saiyan god to Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan(Super Saiyan Blue). There are a lot of forms but that's how these big companies want to capitalize on merchandise sales toys, clothes, video games, etc. etc.
100% nailed it In Dragonball Kai they removed the filler, so In the same episode span of Super, they introduced Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3 & Fusion It's all to sell toys and merchandise at the end of the day. Although Toriyama did say he came up with Super Saiyan so he and his editor could save time by not colouring Goku's hair black R.I.P Akira Toriyama
@@po72644 It's funny that the "not coloring in hair" fact gets brought up, since he still had to ink in Goku's shirt, which was there for most of the fight.
I feel like it should've went like this: Goku and Vegeta: Battle of Gods - God ki revealed, Goku achived SSG through ritual Ressurection "F" - Goku and Vegeta learned how to tap into SSG on their own, without the need for the ritual Universe 6 - They combined SSJ and SSG to create SSB, revealed against Hit Fused Zamasu - They perfected SSB Tournament of Power - Goku achives Ultra Instinct - sign - Broly - is fine the way it is Moro - Goku learns to tap into UI -sign- on command, and in the final battle we get a glimpse of Mastered Ultra Instinct, but it's not called Mastered, it's just called UI Granolah - Goku continues to perfect his Ultra Instinct, Vegeta goes his own path with Ultra Ego The rest of arcs - just them perfecting these forms, no need for the new ones (although this is battle shonen, transformations are a given) Gohan: Battle of Gods and Ressurection "F" - He's pretty much the same as he was in the Buu arc, he can go Ultimate, but his power hasn't increased Universe 6 - After realizing he has no luxury of not training due to the past events, he beggins to train consistently and gets stronger Tournament of Power - Gohan attains God ki or something similar to that due to training in Land of the Kais for so long, no new form, just God ki Broly, Moro and Granolah - pretty much the same role Super Hero - he combines Ultimate with God ki and achieves Beast, with slightly smaller bang hahaha Piccolo: Battle of Gods, Ressurection "F", U6 - Pretty much the same Tournament of Power - He trains together with Gohan in Land of the Kais and gets his potential unlocked + unlocks God ki Super Hero - he combines Ultimate and God ki and achives the Orange form
3:50-3:52 It’s always made sense in my head that the more powerful a saiyan is when they create a child, the more powerful and capable they’ll be at birth. By the time Gohan was born Goku was already the strongest on Earth (plus Gohan grew up in Battle), while by the time Goten and Trunks were born both Goku and Vegeta had already basically mastered Super Saiyan 1. It just makes sense that genetically speaking they’d already be born more powerful than natural
But thats not how genetics works… goku and vegeta were always capable of becoming this strong, so their genetics were always like this. That they can become all this kind of transformations is only possible, because their genetics are like this from the beginning. You dont change your genetics just because youre training hard, this would be the case if youre thinking of evolution like jean baptiste lamarck. But what we know today, is the evolution theory of darwin. Ofcourse thats an anime, so its not real, but i just wanted to point that out haha
I like how Super is trying to get everyone to go their own unique way of getting stronger, and would keep that concept. Goku should have gone down the path of an Angel by training with Whis to master SSJ3 first, then he is trained in the arts of Divine Ki to obtain SSJG, and after that focus on Ultra Instinct. It should be a gradual evolution where he stays with these forms for a while to master them as a way of mastering himself. Vegeta should follow a similar progression, but going down the path of a God of Destruction. Instead of getting SSJG like Goku, he should get SSJB, a mutation of Divine Ki that will set him on the tracks of unlocking his God of Destruction Mode. Instead of becoming a complete God like Goku, Vegeta wants to retain as much of his lineage as possible, going against the harmonious nature of an Angel. He can still keep the grades of SSJB, but once he has figured out how to go beyond that form, it evolves into Ultra Ego, a huge step into uncovering his God of Destruction Mode. After some training from Beerus, he eventually reaches the true potential of his path to power. Piccolo should have been had at least one new form in Z, but since we're keeping to Super, I would have Piccolo also training with not only Whis, but Beerus as well, achieving two forms that differ from each other. His ultimate form a result of his training with Whis and his Orange form a result of his training with Beerus in their versions of Divine Ki. Bulma can just upgrade the Androids with Divine Ki and/or Magic to give them an easy boost while upgrading their cybernetic parts with more powerful and durable materials. I hate Beast Gohan and would prefer it if they continued for him to go down the path of a human with his Unlocked Potential form. So, instead of getting a new form, he just further develops what he has and possibly even learns magic to acquire a true Mystic form. I'm not completely sold on the idea myself, but it could be interesting. That is to say, all of these should be built up over plenty of chapters/episodes to give a larger satisfaction in watching these characters achieve new levels of power. Perhaps after Goku goes SSJG against Beerus and loses, everyone puts it back into gear in fear and excitement of there being even more powerful beings out in the cosmos beyond their comprehension. Goku is trying to figure out ways to further SSJG on his own, but Vegeta takes the humble approach to be mentored by Whis and Beerus, being brushed off by the latter until Vegeta stands against Whis's methods of training in order to maintain what little pride he has left in his heritage. This catches the attention of Beerus who takes an interest in Vegeta's resolve to find his own way to power, begrudgingly taking the Prince of All Saiyan's under his wing. With everyone on Earth still trying to find a way to increase their power, Frieza arrives, having been brought back to life by the Dragon Ball's from a subordinate or maybe even Cooler (who has been keeping to his own side of the universe until the death of his family, keeping a critical eye on the Z-Fighters, gathering information while preparing his plan to take them all out). Aware that Goku has obtained a new power that puts him in the realm of the Gods, Frieza had been training his ass off since his revival, equaling the power of the Z-Fighters (minus Goku in his SSJG form). Having prepared for his eventual defeat at the hands of the Saiyan Born on Earth, Frieza leads them all into a false security of defeat, allowing Frieza's secret weapon (or just Cooler) to take Goku out. With the Dragon Team on the verge of defeat, Vegeta arrives in his SSJB form to defeat Frieza and his forces. Following this event, Goku and Piccolo, maybe some others, opt to learn Divine Ki as well. Goku wants to learn from Whis, believing the Angel would be the best teacher to help him master SSJG, while Piccolo decides to learn from both, applying their versions of Divine Ki to himself. Whis forces Goku to master SSJ3 first, while teaching Piccolo on how to obtain and control Divine Ki. I'm not entirely sure which arc I'd want them to master their current forms and then achieve new ones, but it should all be foreshadowed and built up for the audiences enjoyability.
I thought Beast Gohan was a great Idea, But poor in execution. My idea would be that the beast transformation would be something like a Super Saiyan 4 + Ultimate form type transformation, Which would give Gohan great power, But the draw back would be that the longer he stayed in the form, the more he loses control of himself and become an out of control beast. The next arc would be for Gohan to train and learn to control and stay in the form for longer periods without losing control.
Just rewatched the 3rd Budokai Tenkaichi and man, the show felt way different. The grit, the brutality, art direction, choreography and stakes... oh boy. The fact Goku was facing a huge conundrum against Piccolo Jr. And the blood and brutality.. That scene of Piccolo shoving his elbow on goku's wound still made me cringe of how painful it looked. I also love Goku's fight with Tien. How goku had to figure out Tien's weaknesses. Then came Raditz, the saiyans and journey towards namek. I just miss this kind of stakes on dragonball.
Super is what ruined super saiyan. All the sudden you can be a super saiyan just by feeling your back tingle for 15 seconds. Then, blue is just literally useless. It’s basically just the standard form… which never does anything. They made the red “god” form pointless. Literally everything boiled down to needed to fuse or use ultra instinct. So stupid. They ruined power scaling and had no idea how to make it work.
I feel like the comparison at 6:59 is a little dishonest. Dbz chapters were 90% of the time exactly 13 pages, meanwhile dragon ball super is consistently around 40-45 pages (let’s go with 40 because the first few chapters of dbs are shorter). If we do the math it comes out that 325x13=4,225 pages of dbz meanwhile 40x103=4,120 pages of dbs. Dbz and Dbs are surprisingly similar in length with Dbz just being about 105 pages longer. That’s 2 and a half dbs chapters away from being overtaken
They kind of had something with super saiyan 3. The focus of the arc could have been how to prolong the transformation. In the cell saga, the problem of achieving super saiyan 2 was overcome when Goku taught Gohan how to *naturally* sustain super saiyan form. The buu saga could have somehow spent more time with the development of super saiyan 3. The weakness was never overcome.
That's actually a great idea! If SSJ3 was actually given development, we wouldn't have needed all the other random power ups like the 2 fusion methods and ultimate gohan. Granted, those are still cool, but they wouldn't have been necessary if SSJ3 was handled better as a climatic form.
The real reason why sjb couldn't replace sj as the defacto transformation, is that it failed to have the same impact. And no, impact doesn't just mean the initial introduction to the form (although it helps), or the amount of battles against main villains won (although it helps, a lot). It has more to do with the fact that DBZ had some low budget gems of animation dedicated to sj for what should have always been just a mainstream shonen. Dragon Ball was never conceived with 12-24 episodes in mind, so asking for peak 90's shonen animation was too much, but when we think of sj, we remember only the highlights in animation, even though 95% of it was actually pretty bad. But we had some highlights of sj throughout the series and that's what counts. sjb has only had a couple of animation highlights during ToP and that's it. It wasn't consistent, it wasn't long and it never shone at an important time. So we always were more pumped whenever regular sj showed. That's the excuse for sjb, and that's why it constantly had to be improved upon and ultimately replaced by mng. But every other form had another problem, which is that super's manga is monthly, so that is x4.33 times less manga. So when you have a saga with a main villain that should've introduced at least a couple more forms in Z in the span of a year (52 chapters), you have just as many new forms in just 12 chapters. I only see that as an issue for Goku and Vegeta though. Give everyone something, please. The manga isn't called "The Adventures of Goku and Vegeta". Super has done a decent job of making everyone relevant again, which is something that hadn't been seen to that extent since the saiyan saga in Z. But it's not enough. Everyone is having more moments, that's just great and Gohan and Piccolo have finally become interesting alternatives, paving the way to end of Z's Goku decision to leave Earth in capable hands (for the second time, but now for real). And on that note, all of these had to be achieved in just 4 years (3 so far) of story, because end of Z happens 4 years into Super. So saying Dragon Ball Z got 7 transformations in the span of 13 years of story and Super got 14 in just 4 years cannot be used as an argument. It is valid argument, it's just not a good enough one. Not sorry for the long comment.
When you remove the PROCESS to any thing. You disconnect the RELATIONSHIP. We no longer have a relationship with there's forms... Only ss to ssj2. Really took the time to flesh out the emotion behind those forms...
This is why GT is great in this regard. They took a different route, especially visually AND it was used throughout the series, it became the SSJ of the show. If you remove the Golden Great Ape form (which technically was in DBZ and was barely used in GT), SSJ4 was the only one besides Full Power SSJ4, for the saiyans. It's like they knew the form was peak and GOATED, so they had no reason to bring out an SSJ5.
Ngl despite all the issues with the show, I still like Dragon Ball Super. Especially Lord Berry’s, in my humble opinion I think he was one of the best characters in the entire series, he’s definitely of favorite character out of all of them. And as for Goku’s SSJG and SSJB forms.. I feel like the release time between the both of them should have been further apart like by at least 1 one year.
One of the reasons why I think Dragon Ball should've ended after Frieza is because of super saiyan. Keep in mind up to that point, Goku in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z was a person, you can use any number of adjectives, silly, funny, martial arts genius, but after that he became the guy with the transformations. Now you cant think of Goku, without thinking about all his different hairstyles!
I'm glad I found your channel. I'm always happy to support a brotha. Toriyama definitely created a great thing for people all over the world to bond on. Your commentary is great, keep the heat coming 🔥🔥🔥
In my opinion. SSG should have been the standard transformation going into DBS. With SSGSS being a powerup that came during a critical moment in the story. Then we could have also gotten SSGSSxKK and SSBE, each with their own wins to show off their power. I would have saved UI and UE entirely into the Moro arc which would have increased the time where each transformation was relevant.
I like the idea of having forms that are more of a side grade than a straight upgrade. Like making them more situational with different strengths and weaknesses
The solution is simple: instead of pushing Goku through 10 forms, spread out the character development like we have all been asking The battles SHOULD be so hard that like when Radtiz came - he died & was gone for a year just to get kaioken then Super Saiyan basically. Let Vegeta get some dubs in that time until he falls. Then Gohan steps up. Then Piccolo. Let the Androids win some fights. Hell we HAVE been seeing this more to be honest. Krillin should have learned kaioken & other techniques by now. I want a return to the older Z fighters. Tien can show back up & have a transformation. Let the kids grow individually instead of always merging. You could give ONE new form every 50 chapters per person this way. Broly hasnt even started doing his part. Think about it. In 300 chapters we "could" get only 1 new form per person & still do a crap ton of development. It's all about not being lazy with the writing. Oh yeah & Pan & Uub is still in the wings, plus Buu. There are plenty of opportunities if they would stop focusing on 2-3 people. Also instead of always needing a form there are plenty of ways for the z fighters to teach each other different techniques and tactics. As I mentioned with Krillin and kaioken, why hasn't Vegeta combined his two finishers into one? Galick Gun AND Final Flash could be a single attack if mastered one in each hand. Galick Flash. Things like this are possible & we have seen it used before. Goku has used Krillin attack and Gohan has used Piccolo's attack, but for as long as they have all been together and fighting each other you would think they would all know each other's moves much better than this.
God form and ui, mui makes sense God form was literally a final resort to save the earth and ui, mui was to save the universe Red triggered by a ritual and ui triggered through emotions and spirit bomb Only bs forms are Blue, perfected blue, pui
I completely agree. There was once a time where power was not the deciding factor, but technique and strategy. Someone like Krillin could've feasibly killed Frieza if his attack hit, or going back even further to the Tournaments of the original DB. Even GT attempted this by making SS4 the ceiling of Saiyan power, forcing Goku and Vegeta to strategize against Omega. Super instead just whips a new magical power increase and slaps a literal coat of paint on it for the sake of plot progression.
Exactly original DB and Z are both character driven. DBZ had solid tension...Sayans arriving on earth, cat and mouse game on namik, the slow introduction of cell which was almost like a horror film. Super lacks all of that.
I personally think they should have explored the concept of god ki and SSG a lot more, the same way they did with super saiyan. For example, there was a reason why super saiyan always felt grounded and down to earth before the buu saga. We understood how it worked. You needed a surge of emotion to unlock it, and most of the time, that surge came in the form of rage. After that, a saiyan would learn how to control their rage to activate the form at will, and control it much better. You can see how much control helps when you look at how Goku beat Trunks with a single finger. Then you get all the grades and how each grade has both upsides and downsides, until you get to grade 4 which is essentially ultimate control over super saiyan. They could have done something like this with super saiyan god. A route of calmness and tranquility, that not only allowed them to tap into god ki at will, but would eventually lead them down the route of ultra instinct.
Maybe give us a God of a Creation sort of awakening. or have some of the non-saiyans seek out a path to god hood now that they know it's possible so that other characters are useful. Goku and Vegeta both obtained god ki as part of their being, after simply absorbing the divine energy. And characters can give energy gifts to each other all the time. Is it unreasonable for Goku to just have Krillen drain all his energy to zero and have Goku gift him god ki, even if just to experiment if it would work. or to try to copy the ritual for the others, it wasn't really even all that hard for Goku to transform the first time, get five people to stand in a circle and think good thoughts, why not repeat that for Gohan or any one else? For Super being so focused on the gods, and mortals reaching their level, why only Goku and Vegeta>? Future Trunks got robbed of his Super Human God form of just it being super saiyan but with a spirit-bomb sword. I would have liked to see some potential for non saiyans (even if he's half) to get something to achieve or reach for.
Your last paragraph is actually exactly what super did. SSB was an essential stepping stone to UI considering the fact that the form is all about control
Once they achieved God ki but were still struggling to fight against randos from other universes without one shotting them i knew the powerscaling and impressive impact of the new forms was just over.
Super Saiyan 3 I believe to be the only exception to the form problem, because Goku says the form is stupid and doesn't like using it because how draining it is, when he has other options. Goten and Trunks using it while fused makes sense, because the Fusion is a short term thing to begin with and they want to maximize their power output to the maximum during it.
I wont lie my by biggest problem with Super Sayain is how unearned it made so many fights feel. Like think about Jiren for example. If Jiren had a power boost like Super Sayain then Goku would never have won, he wouldn't have even gotten far enough to unlock UI but even if he did he wouldn't win the fight. And I wont lie, it kinda annoys me when I see Goku and Vegeta training day in and day out, relentlessly, but they still can't compete with quite a few characters without relying on transformations. It also comes down, to me not being able to mentally picture how a lot of those characters got so strong, I mean even in the manga they have to introduce alternative methods for characters to become powerful, like using the dragon balls, or absorbing planets. As an edit, I don't dislike the transformations entirely, I just hate the fact that if you want to beat Goku you have to be like 500x stronger to be on par when he's transformed. I actually really liked Super Sayain 1 and also Super Sayain God (But personally I don't see the need to link the god form to Sayains).
I completely agree on your point about the god forms not being linked to saiyans. Saiyans as a species are already overpowered enough compared to Namekians, Androids, or especially humans. Making the pinnacle of divine power in the dragon ball multiverse a race exclusive thing is ridiculous. The only way I could see that working is if it was angel exclusive, since they're designed to be completely overpowered, to the point its a divine law that they can't go all out or else they get erased. Granted other races have ways of getting stronger, but Saiyans have unique access to divine forms exclusive to their race. SSG and SSB are saiyan forms that use god ki, but no other species in dragon ball has a race specific god ki form. I guess it's gotten better with more powerful forms and abilties for other races in some respects. Namekians can gain more power from the dragon balls than other races with a little extra, androids are consistently shown to be able to be created and improved beyond power thought possible at any given time, and, (while seemingly mutant exclusive,) the frieza race can achieve higher forms that can rival the gods.
oh?Jiren sat on his ass for most of the tournament saving his strength while the others were constantly fighting and getting stronger. Plus Goku matched Jiren in 45 minutes. Who knows how long Jiren had his power before the tournament?
Interesting video, I like your takes and agree we should spend more time with each transformation. I thought the way the manga explored ultra instinct was great but not enough. I like seeing the power evolve into a higher grade, learning the pros and cons of a transformation and how it can be improved upon. On a side note, at least ultra ego feels right for Vegeta, but the writer really needs to choose if Vegeta as a character needs to go past his ego to reach new heights (ultra instinct?), or fully accept his ego and go on his own path of power.
In one year, Yamucha, Kurilin, and Tenshinhan got to Raditz's level, something Gokū couldn't do in eight years. Yamucha spent 130 days with Kai'ō-sama. Tenshinhan and Chaozu spent 260. What's Toriyama's excuse for not giving them the technique?
Goku wasn't even as strong as Raditz by the time he learned kaioken. The humans and Piccolo were already beyond Raditz by the time they died in the saiyan saga, so they should easily have been able to handle at least kaioken x2. Also, aren't the strongest humans in the world special individuals for being able to keep up with elite saiyan warriors, who were some of the strongest beings in the universe (at this point in the story before other characters were introduced)?
I'm someone who eats all the new transformations in any shows but for me they need to be actual transformation that give them something and not just blatant recolors. I'm sick and tired of these disco rainbow hair colors, they have run out of colors to give now so what next? Super saiyan rgb lights? One thing i love about SSJ4 is that it has first of an unique look, the hair is longer and stays black, there is a tail and half of his body is covered in fur. Second the meaning behind it, i love how they went back to the saiyans history with the great ape and used that as a base as a sort of controlled form and how it was reached by having pan remind an out of control giant ape what he is actually fighting for and the way goku reached towards earth like he was homesick. Just beautifully done. Now super transformation are all the same, got his ass beaten and out of wazoo dyed his hair, well ss god as a bit unique as in he needed 4 saiyans but ehh that was reather anti climatic compared to every transformation before
So don't like god and blue but like ssj2 wich changes almost nothing and 3 wich makes eyebrows disappear out of nothing and just grow hair? Also, there's no toriyama style in ssj4, an over complicated form in it's design. God, blue and ui are more similar to the og super saiyans and to toriyama's simplistic style
I hate when people count every little change in super saiyan as a form. Like its rlly 1,2,3,red blue, beast, ui, ego. Everyhting else is just some variation of a form. If i improve or perfect my handwriting I dont have two handwritings I just improved one.
Great video. I think they could come up with a way to artificially limit the Saiyans in a film where they have to find a way to unlock a firm again. And that struggle is what fills retrospectively fills that gap where the original training struggle was
To me its dragonball everything doesnt have to be explained to us its not naruto , also when you start talking numbers you stop enjoying what your watching and turn into the very thing toriyama made fun of was the scouter . As for gohan form was the early concept of beast gohan but then the series continued so they simply went with ssj2 . Ive accepted super for what it was it didnt bother me they had all those forms its what fans expect lol
Its called Super Sayjan Blue. Super Sayjan God Super Sayjan is literally a gag term. A joke. Going super sayjan while being a God is the path on how to get super sayjan blue, but that makes it not its name. I repeat, in the manga the term "super sayjan god super sayjan" is a term used as a joke. In the same scene they settled on calling it "Super Sayjan Blue", its true name. Throughout the anime its also only called "Blue" or "Super Sayjan Blue"
@@viciousv5395 No, ppl act like the forms actual name is super sayjan god super sayjan, while the primary main canon name for the form is super sayjan blue
@@dazedd-fi4yx It doesn't matter wether you think its a joke term or not. Is someone going to die if they say it? Your being a hardass over smth completely irrelevant.
Odd facts abt These forms; - SSJ Rose (Anime-Only) is Black's SSJ1, meaning DB Heroes's Super Saiyan Rose 3 is technically canon? - SSJ Blue Shinka (Vegeta dark Blue form in the Tournament), is supposed to be the SSJ Grade 2-3, but for Blue. Some people thought it was SSJ2 Blue, so i'm clearing that out. As a throwback he even did the Super Vegeta pose and did a Final Flash during this form like the Cell Saga.
Bro who counts the perfected forms they don’t change from the form it’s perfecting so it not to be counted only perfected form that’s actually a form is cell not one else technically it’s only really like 10 or 9 now forms not 14 my boy
I feel like if SSJ4 is reintroduced into Super, it should be exclusive to Broly and be his final form. It just makes sense as Broly has the most “Saiyan” transformations amongst the main cast.
The original Super Saiyan up to Super Saiyan 2 was extremely well paced. There was much experimentation with form which fit the characters and how they handled it up to Cell.
I'm not sure why the humans didn't learn kaio ken. There could have been a lore reason why humans are much better suited to using kaio ken than saiyans allowing them to get higher multipliers. Still SSJG is my favorite form in the series. I didn't like it being replaced so quickly. In fact I think that SSJB should have been an alternative form. Two sides of the same coin. SSJG being the more defensive and tanky form while SSJB has lower defensive abilities but is more offensive oriented. Would have been cool to have seen a transformation that has two sides that they must balance.
the kiyoken thing is really simple and explained in anime first humun dont know how to use ki secont who is teaching them kayoken 3 and last theyir body cant handle it like thats why goku had to train for it even then he could not use it for long time. i guess dbz fans really dont watch dbz
@@obito4168 I think you need to work on your english. Also there is no reason why the humans didn't learn kaio ken other than King Kai not teaching them when they were on his planet. Yes it does put strain on the body but that would only limit the multiplier they can use
It should have been just Super Saiyan God, to introduce the concept of "God Ki," followed by Ultra Instinct. Also, if UI was less of a "transformation" and more just being "in the zone" like Black Flash in JJK I think it would have been cooler.
Battle of Gods set up Super Saiyan God as the new ceiling for Goku to reach. Goku hadn't learned how to fully tap into the power to maintain the transformation and Vegeta hadn't even unlocked it yet. There was room there to build the characters up to the new form after seeing a glimpse of it. And then immediately, in the very next movie, we get Super Saiyan Blue. And then Blue had an unimpressive showing for a good majority of its screentime, so everyone was anxious for the next form.
I call this LBGT forms we need all the colours of the rainbow! Missing gold? Let’s give Frieza gold colours maybe even black in the future! Piccolo let’s give him orange, blue green? Red pink, purple we got em all!
ssj blue should be used just in more unique and difficult occasions and not like daily basis, ssj god is such a badass transformation I really don’t know why they just don’t give af abt it, and they should work better with the forms along the fights too…
I think having Goku and Vegeta diverge with instinct and ego is such a great concept and on top of that we have broly forms, and beast gohan, all forms that are the different saiyans incorporating their saiyan powers with there unique characteristics. As you can probably tell I'm a fan
One of the main issues with the forms after SSJ2 is that they started becoming more of a “shock factor” thing more than being built up to. SSJ3 came outta nowhere and we never saw Goku train to achieve it. I honestly believe that Goku’s statement of using his full power in the fight with Majin Vegeta was actually true at that time and that SSJ3 was something Toriyama came up with later to be a shock factor moment and that he didn’t originally have that form planned at the time of Goku Vs. Majin Vegeta. Same thing with SSB, specifically Vegeta, I think him going Blue in RoF was initially supposed to be a “surprise/shock factor” moment because once again at that time we didn’t see Vegeta train for it let alone we had no clue he even had God Ki. I think outside of SSJ, SSJ2, and SSG, the other forms were supposed to just be shock moment forms for us fans but eventually had to be incorporated into the plot, in my opinion with Super, I feel like Blue either should’ve been introduced in the Goku Black arc or not introduced at all and that SSG should’ve been the go to form until UI and UE(for the manga) or hell even could’ve had it to where SSG was the main God form until Goku unlocked UE in the ToP and Vegeta’s frustration at Goku surpassing him again leads to Vegeta unlocking SSB
The problem is mostly Super Saiyan Blue from my pov. Did we really *need* another new form right after reaching Super Saiyan God and making Goku aware of a entire new realm of power? I dont think so. Frankly. Early DBS Arcs should have been all about Goku and Vegeta trying to achieve the Super Saiyan God form using their own power, rather than depending on a ritual. It's very lame imo that this proccess was just skipped off-screen by training with Whis for 3 years. Goku should have only fully mastered the SSJG form by the time of the Tournament of Power. You can remove the need of a "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" entirely just by doing that. And then only during the TOP and later arcs you could reveal Ultra Instinct/Ultra Ego to be next major power-ups. Since they achieve something beyond normal Godhood by using the signature technique of Angels and Destroyers respectively. From a aesthetic point of view. I really appreciate the design of Vegeta using Blue Evolution, Goku Black using Rosé, Beast Gohan color pallete, [...] So I think it would have been a interesting gimmicky to make it so that every single Super Saiyan God is a different coloration to represent one's godhood. Therefore, Goku can remain in the original red coloration. Vegeta's Super Saiyan God is royal blue. Black would be rosé to his disdain towards mortals... So on and so forth. This way you can preserve the cool and unique transformation designs. Without having to crap out a entire new form every single arc
Problem? Id say multiple problems such as lack of originality, sloppy design, lack of taste and cringe. The original 4 transformations are so good. One replaces the previous one and it really feels as an improvement in power and badassness. Say what you want about DBgt but The SSJ 4 is just awesome and the next transformations shouldve taken it as it base. Fans in this case did a much better work, with the famous SSJ5 going around the net since 1999 and the one created in DBaf if I'm not mistaken, the Golden one. In the end, Miyamoto can be excused because he did so many great things with probably the best Anime series in history but man, wasn't anyone around to tell him that the new transformations were horrible in every sense of the word? Anyway, as a kid growing in the 90s, I'm happy to have enjoyed the good era of DB.
Think it has to be that Toriyama mentioned in an interview that the reason we don’t see grade 3 is because it’s a pain to draw, especially in fight scenes, which is why the form gets used so very little compared to the others. And I think that carries on over the super because when Goku achieve God form what’s his hair it’s his base form but red and when he unlocks blue, it’s his super Saiyan form but blue. Then his ultra instinct form is his base hair but first black than white. I think in the end it just comes down to how simple it is to constantly draw it
Tbh I a hundred percent agree with you that while most of the forms are cool they don’t get fleshed out that well. I think the general issue is they need the each have their build up. Super saiyan 1, and 2 both have an incredible amount of build up prior to being achieved. Arguably this issue imo begins with super saiyan 3, but with blue, beast, and arguably orange piccolo (though I’d argue not really that’s more due to poor execution) a lot of the forms don’t really have a build up to them.
Nothing they do now will ever make me feel like I did when Goku broke into Super Saiyan on Namek. I was screaming. Stuff got flung around my room. I was in genuine awe. Toonami went hard in my middle school childhood.
I have to agree. The new forms in Super feel more like hand-outs, compared to the train and push the body to the limit/get put in a life or death situation. The latter is always the better option, especially when you consider how new levels of power are achieved from the effort. I do like the Ultra Instinct form, and I also like Kale's Berserker form, since it plays into her early depiction in the Tournament of Power, so I kind of want to see how her form works once she learns to control it.
"In 2 movies, we got 2 new forms. That's way too fast" - sums it up pretty good
God should have been THE form for Super. Also the fact God is skinnier compliments Toriyama's new artstyle of drawing characters skinnier than he did before.
By the time UI came along enough time would have passed.
Yea like ssj4 in gt and ssj5 in af @@NigelsPad
@@NigelsPad And God was bringing new features that can make combat more diverse: better stamina, healing and make the ki unsensable; while Blue is just a simple powerboost
And those 2 movies are part of 1 arc mind you, Gods of the Universe arc.
@@SisyphusSRB OK BUT LET ME OUT THE BASEMENT
The problem was the power scaling. They achieve "God ki", take it to a super saiyan level, and still have a hard time fighting people. Didn't make sense
Probably because pretty much everyone in the Dragon Ball Universe is God Tier anyway...
God Ki ain’t the issue, it’s whoever wrote Super Toyotaro/Toriyama clearly having a hard time thinking of ways to beat villains and keep the story interesting without Introducing a new form.. They fr could’ve just removed SSJBlue and its variations and simply made grades for the OG SSJGod, then they could skip Mastered UI, have Goku instead go from UI Sign to True UI then introduce MUI in the future after True UI, this would make it so MUI is actually Mastered Ultra Instinct instead of a half baked and undercut by True UI Omen.
Frieza had never trained in his life and already had a power level over 120 million, Goku Black and Zamasu are God’s one of which has Goku’s body, Jiren, Toppo and others have trained and gone through their own comparable struggles to get where they are, Moro gets stronger through absorbing, Gas and Granolah wished to be the strongest at the cost of their lifespans. You're acting like they're struggling against random fodder rather than people with justifiable reasons for being as strong as they are.
@@MultiSpeedMetalDamn I was on his side but you managed to sway me
@@badazzkaz People have the laziest critiques of Super. I think Super has weak writing with a lack of character focus that Z had, but people just make stuff up because they either haven't seen it in a while or just want to participate in the hate wagon. Ultra Instinct is probably the most brilliant form to date which calls back to OG Dragon Ball and for me makes up for Toriyama's laziness with Blue. I also think the Moro arc is massively slept on because people can't get past the allusions to previous arcs they take as laziness.
The forms these days feel like the fan fictions we'd find in the late 2000's when googling things like "super saiyan 5" etc, between UI, UE, Beast, Orange Piccolo, it's all stuff that would've looked fake back then
I 100% agree
Bruv I honestly wish the fan fictions at least would've been given an opportunity cuz sum designs looked sick, my gripe with dB is not seeing these monkeys with different hair styles when they went God mode
Lol, I remember ss5 was silver hair , saw Gohan beast form and thought, "Man these guys ran out of ideas and start tapping into the fanfics."
Gohan Blanco WAS a fanfic... So
Yeah, all the old SSJ 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, etc
I remember when Super Saiyan Red/Blue/White/Purple was just fan art.
It’s not even about martial arts no more it’s about who has the prettiest hair
It was never about martial arts
Not even in db where at the start Goku learns to shoot fuking lasers
@@ReBolt590 there was still a big martial arts aspect with goku and krillin training under roshi, goku traveling around the land meeting various martial artists and then participating in a martial arts tournament. there was a lot of goofiness like lazers and a fat fart man but there were real spectacular fights like goku vs krillin, goku vs tien
@@jym2rin their training roshi never taught them martial arts he just physically trained them, plus in the world tournament there were strippers
@@ReBolt590 nice man way to ignore my other 2 points
@@jym2r my bad I didn't click read more
People can hate on GT all they want, but SS4 was at least based on established lore. SSGod is an ass pull.
Ssj4 was a LITERAL asspull
Get it?
Cause they pulled his tail from his ass?
@bepbobbap
Okay, but at least GT Goku and Vegeta didn't become maids to receive training to achieve SSB
@@blackice7050He just made a joke
Tldr: plot driven transformations vs marketing driven transformations
I couldn’t agree with this comment more! 100%
Agreed
At the same time though. Goku and vegeta got their SSJ1 by themselves without any outside help. God was made from a ritual which I guess makes sense, but I don’t hate blue considering they already had super saiyan and god which is just a combination of the two and they were being trained by literal gods and angels to achieve that transformation
@@ggemcee5903 ssjbe ssjgui ui mui perfect blue muisusano true ui beast just a lot of bullshit forms for no reason dawg ssjg and blue where fine but none of this shi makes sense anymore but hey atlest its fun
@@yoh-tu4zmwhat do you mean?
Only beast doesn't makes sense?
I really loved GT for how Super Saiyan 4 was portrayed. Instead of the Super route where they'd unlock a new form and it became redundant quickly, 4 was the peak of power in GT and nothing above it- minus Fusion of course. It just felt like this immovable power whereas a godly state of Super Saiyan just felt... average.
Peak of power sure, but Goku used ssj4 against everyone, literally had to transform to lift a building
@Santzu Because he was a child still, after he first unlocked SS4 it should have permanently reverted his body back to an adult especially since people were tired of kid Goku
@@DADRB0B55 Yeah because Goku was definitely a normal kid right? GT kid Goku is still a multi star buster, he should not need to transform to lift a building
on the contrary i feel no one has a bad thing to say about SSJ4 whereas to me i feel like i should scrutinize it in some form
SSJ4 is mostly praised for returning saiyans back to their primal roots, but tbh besides its origins in the Great Ape forms, its got very little difference again w the Super forms w being "another stronger one". Functionally its just a way to keep Goku in his adult form again and alot of Oozaru elements arent really utilized. Secondly, I feel that returning to "saiyan roots" is a misstep in the characters of both Goku and Vegeta. Like they use their genetics and pretenatural talents to get stronger sure, but by now hardly any part of their growth is related to being a Saiyan. Goku spent his whole childhood adventures barely living up to any Saiyan and hes so much stronger than any Saiyan in both GT and Super that his lineage doesnt even matter anymore. Same goes for Vegeta really, that royal blood hasnt done him good since the Saiyan saga, every other meaningful step in his growth was outside the Saiyan heritage.
The martial arts angle of post Broly DB Super of largely similar power levels, but different mindsets like UI and UE are probably exactly what i wouldve done and what i feel r perfect ways to progress either goku or vegeta.
@@Santzu_ L
Once they switched from red to blue it started becoming ridiculous.
I think the rediculousness is in the names
"Super Saiyan god" "super Saiyan god super Saiyan"
Literally just call it Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God
Already red (with no apparent change, just the color) was ridiculous
And Rosé 😂
I think they should have given Vegeta SSG the traditional way through the ritual to fight resurrected Frieza, it was dumb there was no build up to blue other than “training”
@@Lacaze89 no bro ur hating for hate, you wanted him to become Silver Oozaru with 3 eyes and spit fire ?
The people who work on Dragon Ball Super (at least the show and manga) saw that Z introduced a new SS form every arc, copied that, but didn’t understand why, and didn’t understand that they need to show the training they went through.
And not only that. Every sayan transformation was a result of an emotional trauma. Somebody had to DIE so that a transformation could happen. The stakes where much higher before
Yea and they really used every form in the best way but DBS a new villian appears that somehow beats the best form out of nowhere.
@@josend thing is god ki is a new route. Ofc its not going to require emotion to transform when the whole point of it is about control.
Also this comment is straight up wrong. Every form in DBS has training that led up to them.
don't let it bother you man. z stans like to come up with the most nonsensical head canons and act like they're objective facts@@ripper_madness
Real real problem is SS4 will always be the coolest form
The only form that doesn't scream RECOLORS.
🤣
Vegeta getting SS4 in Super would be a nice way to bring it back. Goku sticks to the godly path whereas Vegeta, who more clearly remembers his heritage and time on planet Vegeta, taps into his bloodline along with Ultra Ego, to match the main two facets of his character. His Saiyan pride, and his pride in himself
@@Subpar1O1Vegeta shouldn't even have that much pride anymore after the Buu saga. GT has many flaws but at least they understood they couldn't go back in developing the characters.
Super doesn't take the fans seriously enough to actually care to progress the story. It's sad, really.
Super Saiyan Furry
Super Saiyan is the coolest form and Super Saiyan 4 is second. The rest suck💯
What I liked about GT is that ssj4 was the best form, but Goku would still be losing to villains even in that form. The way to overcome villains wasn’t to get a form stronger than ssj4, it was with strategy & the idea that everybody has a weakness. Figuring out the villain’s weakness & exploiting it is usually what gave the win. Not including fusion of course. They could go back to beating villains with that recipe so forms don’t become monotonous
It's not like Goku already fought energy-absorbing androids in the cell saga and should realize Super 17 has that ability quickly instead of repeatedly using ki blasts and not even trying melee attacks.
Goku doesn’t win in SSG ,SSBK or Ui when first introduced. Vegeta doesn’t win with UE so. The only person Goku beat with tactics was 17
This is really tough. Dragon Ball is about self improvement, with becoming the best being the prize for that. When you lose the prize, the message gets a bit lost. I personally think ToP played with the idea better by making Jiren represent Goku’s goal of becoming the strongest, but Goku rejects Jiren’s method by doing it alone, so he requires help to win. With GT it missed that extra layer of subtext to connect back to the premise
That’s correct, but also realize that new forms=new merchandise. They can’t sell toys based off of techniques & maneuvers, but they can sell another Goku with purple hair. The bulk of Dragon Ball profit that Toei rakes in will always be in the toys, statues, etc.
Agreed. To me that was classic Dragon Ball - you kind of had to outsmart your opponent, master a new technique and then use it wisely. It wasn't just "who is stronger now?".
R.I.P. Akira Toriyama
Stop using his death to milk likes now please
@@phantaflame2889He’s not
@@eeeeee4414 People are just commenting it on every single video now. Don’t get me wrong, love Akira and everything he’s done for us but I can tell when these things slowly begin to shift where people only comment it because they know it’ll get them likes
@@phantaflame2889You get the rights to use that logic in 5 more days
For now it's aceptable and you're just overreacting, like dude. 💀
Using someone's death to get likes on videos is absolutely fucked up and all but they get nothing from saying "Rest in peace Toriyama" on comments. No fame whatsoever just a random comment on a random video.
I wish we got more techniques and less power ups, also R.I.P Akira Toriyama
Agreed. Unique abilities are more interesting vs just can destroy planets easier than they already could. But only if the abilities actually matter and aren't the guy "I've restrained the enemy" the enemy just powers through it by screaming really loud.
I mean, we still got a lot of techniques too. Goku learn Ultra Instinct, Mafuba, and briefly learns hakai in the manga's goku black arc , while Vegeta learns spirit fission, instant transmission, Ultra Ego, etc. Honesly, there was more of a focus on techniques here than in DBZ. The only techniques goku learns in DBZ is spirit bomb and instant transmision, and vegeta exclusively only learns new forms instead of techniques in DBZ
Agreed it shouldn't be about rainbow colors. That's why the og super saiyans are still best ss1,ss2,ss3 and ss4.
@@thebrightestknight6714kaioken?
@@thebrightestknight6714 goku does not learn hakai he tries to do it once and fails and never tries again, mafuba he learn, used once and never tried it again, ui as a technique was great, but they gave it white hair and made it a transformation so its not a technique in the end. vegeta (not only all those things are from manga and the video is about the anime) but he doesnt know how to use instant transmision, he used it once and said he would not be capable of doing it again, spirit fission was used once and was just a plot device to save earth, 0 use after that fight i even forgot he had that until now, ego is a transformation, instead of spamming blue vegeta now spams ego, in the end its the same shit but diferent colour (the more damage i take stronger i get is bad since vegeta ends up taking to much damage and passes out). so yeah we have almost no techniques and too many forms that are all to similar, just a diferent hair colour.
One of the biggest issues is that they would soon be facing guys that were instantly able to compete with/outclass these impossibly strong forms.
The annoying thing here is Super wrote the solution, and then ignored it. It introduced Beerus, Whis, and the other universes and never really capitalized on it. Only 2 story arcs had other universes as threats, Goku surpassed Beerus like 3 times and the goal post keeps moving, most universes have now been made irrelevent, Frieza is the next villian again, and Beerus and Whis seem to be getting close to being surpassed (with Goku beating Moro who has Merus’ abilities and strength). So every concept it added to prevent this issue it messed up or ignored
@nerdcorner2680 I think you're totally right. I also feel they expanded the world, only to quickly then shrink it all. They limited Universe 7 with the "28 planets with life" comment (which is absurd); and they brought out the supposed toughest fighters of most of the universes, with only one having fighters actually strong enough - too strong, honestly - to challenge 7's best. And with them even approaching/surpassing the destroyers, I half expect them to introduce someone above Zeno who oversees multiple groups of universes lol.
Goku getting as strong as a destroyer should be an eternal goal that he never achieves; or if he does, it should be the end of the series. In the meantime, they should try and rediscover that you can have the heroes fight and overcome a foe even if they aren't at the same power; that actually makes it more exciting (Zamasu stuff almost gets it right).
@@nerdcorner2680 A month late, but that isn't true about Beerus. The FANS kept power scaling Goku to be beyond Beerus because of that hypothetical scale Akira said during the Battle of gods interview way back. There's never been any source canon of Goku surpassing Beerus. Is it a goal post? Maybe. You could say that. Though I wouldn't. But at the end of the day, Beerus' power has never been fully shown during now or after the BoG fight. It always falls under speculation.
@@will_9910 ToP it is stated many times that Jiren is stronger than Gods, when Goku surprasses him Beerus admits Goku surpassed him and then all the Gods stand in respect for the man that surpassed them. That is beyond 100% confirmed
@@nerdcorner2680He never admitted that lol . He was trying to Get Ultra instinct himself, you crazy if you think goku is stronger than beerus
Its just ridiculous, the lack of originality. You can say what you want about Dragon Ball GT, but at least they invented a truly original new form, directly related to saiyan's ozaru form. Now its just changing wigs
The rapidness of the new forms is literally just to sell merch. That’s why they’re just palette swaps. It’s simple, change the hair color from yellow to blue to silver. And fans eat that shit up.
Yeah it's corny as hell. Super Saiyan blue is the worst.
When I saw the movie where Goku got Saiyan god I truly thought it was going to be something like "they are going to make Goku start from scratch but with God ki now"
Little did I know that transformation lasted that 1 movie and then they turned it into blue , to then turn it into blue with kaioken to then turn it into silver with ultra instinct and then pink
They really wanted to sell the toys and destroyed the logic of the previous show because of it
Super Saiyan Skettle flavors😂😂😂
Maybe this is just me being cynical, but I think a big contributing factor to why we have so many new forms in Super is to help with toy sales.
Edit: Good to know I'm not being cynical.
It also keeps, let’s face it, stupid people invested in the series. Why bother with good writing when the fanbase will spawn a million videos overnight about “how strong is the new form? Can he beat Beerus?? What’s the multiplier??? Does this colour represent the rage of a Tibetan monk when his balls itch just before he reaches enlightenment????” It’s pathetic. Consoom new form and get excited for next form.
@@sigiligus dragon ball super fans are such stimulation depraved monkeys it ain’t even funny :(
That’s not even being cynical its the literal truth
@@sigiligus idk if a new form is coming due to recent news…
@@sigiligusok and? Do you seriously think Dragon Ball would be as entertaining if they were all constantly base? Goku getting UI broke the internet for a reason. The forms are interesting. True they didn’t know how to handle moving from God to Blue correctly but thats like the one issue
“Super Saiyan 3 never won a fight”
Wrath of the Dragon: Am I a joke to you?
It's sad that Movie is overlooked
When they hit you with the "its non canon"
(Iam currently holding a gun to my head)
@@XenoVerse_Goku there are several different Dragon Ball continuities, so it is canon. the question is which canon does it fit into? the answer is GT canon since Goku uses the Dragon Fist in both stories. it also fits nicely into the 10 year time skip between the fight with Kid Buu and the fight with Uub.
@brandonking5111 yeah he is just calling out the stereotypical reply canontards always come up with, which is funny because they honestly don’t even know the real “canon” as much as they want to claim usually they skipped the OG dragonball & only watched Z & super.
Yeah definitely and before someone says “ oH BuT iTS nOt CAnoN” shut up it still counts and your opinion on it not being canon doesn’t count
Super saiyan 4>super saiyan blue
Exactly
Its so annoying just how close a lot of these forms get to being really good. Dragon ball forms now need to be unique to stand out from the rest, and have a reason to exist. Super never quite hits both at the same time and it’s so frustrating.
God - needs a ritual to get to, which clashes with Goku’s character, which is great. Makes the form unique by using God Ki which is great. But then God Ki never gets any depth, and Goku has regular ki in God form…for some reason. The manga and ToP anime try to make it a little bit more unique, but it is too little too late
Blue - Anime gives it perfect Ki control, which a few times becomes relavent, but for the most part becomes a non factor. God + Super Saiyan is also enough to warrent its’ existance. Manga does it a lot better, with Perfected SSB being one of the coolest parts of Super and really sells the concept. But it overstays its’ welcome and gets boring in both by not keeping up with these concepts
UI - the transformation itself doesn’t make any sense, but it honestly doesn’t matter because the focus is on the technique itself. The imperfected UI is actually a lot cooler because the lack of perfect movement makes the perfect movement noticable. When every attack is supposed to be natural in Mastered UI, it stops feeling that way (just compare MUI Goku vs Jiren and Goku vs Frieza and point out what the difference is).
Ultra Ego - By far best transformation in Super, finally connects Vegeta to Beerus (the whole premise of Super), great gimmic, ties into his character arc perfectly
Beast Gohan - worst transformation in Super. No explaination on it, no interesting gimmic with it (the manga already turned the anger of it into a joke), it’s just bland
Also didn’t mention all the super gimmicy transformations like Rosé, Blue Evolution, and Trunks’ but honestly all of them are such blatant gimmics that impact nothing that they are not worth going any deeper with
I agree with you on all of this. SSG is used up even within its own first fight by running out, and Goku just has the strength now. It is just another Divine Water or one of many random power ups Goku was given in Dragon Ball before transformations.
It became so thing later to use a little but for its speed, but it realy pointless now. Blue just happens and continues to happen it is just SSJ but blue to keep up with the higher power levels of new foes.
Evolution oh man do they like to just poison their own supply with this one. Goku has Ultra Instinct and we are being told all these details about it as Goku perfects it vs Jiren. Then Vegeta break through his limits to Evolution and....its SSB UI....now its not actualy that but at the time it just felt like SSB was doing the same as UI was doing and then.....just never even hinted or used ever again not even in the Manga. Like why even bother with the new form if it means nothing.
Ultra Ego feels new and interesting. Ui felt new and interesting until it wasn't and now it has gotten dumb.
Beast.....ugh I switched the movie off at that point and stopped watching. It has gone far too far. Getting 2 new Piccolo forms in 20 minutes and boom Gohan pulls out random power up and it pretends to redo SSJ2 first transformation.....my good will is pretty done at this point.
Not to mention we are just doing colours now "Blue, Golden. Orange. Rose" UI and Ultra Ego is about the best so far before we just go into more moods. "Ultra Hungry" "Ultra sleepy"
I'm gonna say rage is the worst. It actually makes 0 sense. At least beast is visually appealing (aura, moments) apart from the hair.
@ i don’t really count rage as its’ own transformation, but if you do then I agree with you its’ the worst
I like Mui Goku and ultra ego Vegeta transformations the best I think we don't need more transformations but better fights and storytelling.@@nerdcorner2680
Imo we should've had ssg in both movies but then have blue in the universe 6 and Goku black arcs
Agreed
I agree, and Freeza's golden form should be another color. Red versus yellow doesn't look as good as blue versus yellow.
@@JotonioIIIhonestly, they should’ve swapped Golden for Black in the RoF and ToP arcs, and THEN when Black Frieza would show up, it would instead be Golden Frieza
@@joshwash2 Golden Freeza looks much better than Black Freeza.
@@JotonioIIIgolden frieza is just fine being gold
Honestly the SSG form was a missed opportunity to let non-Saiyans catch up a bit in power. I like the idea that the first God form Goku attains is a completely new form detached from Super Saiyan, and throughout Super he can try and combine the two ability (which creates the blue form)
I don’t think there’s too many forms, I just think they feel way too easily gained now. It should be more of a struggle for these power ups to happen but they honestly seem like random chance.
Yeah like the Saiyin's from the 6th universe?!?
In less than a year's time in the Super story, 6th Universe Saiyans go from not knowing what Super Saiyan is to being able to transform forms 1 (Champa/Beerus tournament) and then later 2 (ToP arc) in literally minutes.
@@arezhik7774 I really liked the idea of them in theory being much more developed power wise in general. It was said repeatedly that Saiyans were getting stronger with each generation in early DBZ and repeated in the Broly movie, it's why Freeza feared an uprising, so the idea of a version of the Saiyans who interbred instead of conquered, evolving and living and fighting, was cool to see.
It's makes plenty sense that the average low-class U6 Saiyan should be stronger than Captain Ginyu and the like. But the ridiculous way they tried to explain SSJ in two completely different ways sucks. Cabba needed to be beaten to near death and have his home planet threatened by a stranger who seemed volatile just from him asking for some pointers on what a Super Saiyan is, so that made sense - that being all the emotion and rage needed for SSJ for U6 is neat, it makes it seem like they ARE more evolved.
But then... Cabba just explains roughly what his energy felt like at the time, and Caulifla instantly goes Super Saiyan without being so much as passingly insulted? Then, seconds later for no reason at all, she goes SSJ2 while deflecting an energy attack from Kale?
It got so out of hand so fast. The manga handled them better, but showed Caulifla's transformation off screen. She also I'm fairly sure never got SSJ2, neither did Cabba. I don't remember exactly. Kale being akin to Broly and not following the rules was also shown better there.
Bro wtf are you talking about. You said :i dont think that too many forms, of course that are too many forms thats the point of the video,let me remind you the forms(ssg,ssb,ssbk,ssbe,ssrose,ui,mui,pui,tui,ue,orange piccolo,beast gohan)isnt that too many for you??
@@Man1999-cy8ye Variants of forms don't really count.
There's God, Blue/Rose/Evolution, UI, and UE.
Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan? Never heard of them. Must be from a fanfic. There would never be forms that silly in official material. /s
In general the new forms did just come around too quickly and not do enough on their own. God shoulda been used way more, Blue shoulda came way later to give it time to shine. UI and UE I think were actually handled fine.
"Orange", ugh, Piccolo is a neat idea in theory, but it just really, really needed a better fucking name. It also would have worked much better if that movie had been actually restricted to being a purely Piccolo movie without Gohan and the others being shoved in last second. Let Piccolo save the world on his own and improve while doing it.
Beast Gohan is inexcusable bullshit which should not exist.
The long and short of it is I mostly agree
I have a love hate relationship with the forms cause I liked how originally the super saiyan forms had grades and each grade had their own draw backs and advantages
But I honestly don’t see or feel the difference in super saiyan blue from just regular super saiyan’s. To many of the forms are just “it makes you stronger and nothing else like beast gohan, I love gohan but it’s just like…..what? Like what does this do?
But here comes the love cause broly’s forms are what actually feels like a natural saiyan evolution, harnessing the power of the great ape while in human form was honestly one of the most delicious bits of saiyan lore we’ve ever gotten cause the great ape form rocks and GT was right to incorporate it into the super forms.
And things like ultra instinct & ego, they actually operate on different mentalities and actively changes how the user fights. With ultra instinct being more evasive and ego being a giant pain sponge
beast gohan is just an ugly form too
I never understood why super saiyan 3 wasn’t mastered like ssj2
Remember, the average screen can show up to 16 million colors, we have room for a few more transformations
The human eye can only make out like 300
@@SCHMALLZZZ the fuck? “The visible spectrum for humans falls between ultraviolet light and infrared light. Scientists estimate that humans can distinguish up to 10 million colors”
@@SCHMALLZZZ that's enough for like 2 arc's
there gonna be a super saiyan for each color in the rainbow frfr
@@sweetsweetkhajoorthen goku will have an interview with the ugandian journalist
I think super saiyan blue, super saiyan god, and rose are unnecessary. Its just too many colors man. It feels like they exploited the idea of changing hair colors. Too many colors. I wish they kept it simple. Like ssj1,2 and 3 and Ultra instinct as the final form
Just cut out Super Saiyan Blue and Make Rose a variation on Super Saiyan God, to sell toys maybe have Goku Black cycle through Super Saiyan 1-3
@@tobin2.0Nah just nuke the god bullshit and go straight to ultra instinct. Ego and Instinct fit Goku and Vegetas characters. The god xformations are garbage.
@@RasmanitWhy are they garbage? How can you go from regular ssj 3 with drawbacks to a divine technique the gods and angels use?
I agree 1,000%
@@ryanjagpal123because if you’re rewriting the series you’re rewriting the series and how the power scaling works
In the original manga almost every 2 years there was a new transformation for the Saiyan's. Super Saiyan came out in 1991, Super Saiyan 2 came in 1993, Super Saiyan 3 appeared in 1994(1 year transformation). So this is just consistency with the series especially going from Super Saiyan god to Super Saiyan god Super Saiyan(Super Saiyan Blue). There are a lot of forms but that's how these big companies want to capitalize on merchandise sales toys, clothes, video games, etc. etc.
100% nailed it
In Dragonball Kai they removed the filler, so In the same episode span of Super, they introduced Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3 & Fusion
It's all to sell toys and merchandise at the end of the day. Although Toriyama did say he came up with Super Saiyan so he and his editor could save time by not colouring Goku's hair black
R.I.P Akira Toriyama
@@po72644 It's funny that the "not coloring in hair" fact gets brought up, since he still had to ink in Goku's shirt, which was there for most of the fight.
Bro the problem is ssg and ssb happened literally 1 short arc apart. That's like 8 eps apart and we barely seen ssg.
Yea but the difference is that all of the android and cell arc happened before super saiyan 2
@@sky-oq5mrthe the toys mah toytyys mah moni
I feel like it should've went like this:
Goku and Vegeta:
Battle of Gods - God ki revealed, Goku achived SSG through ritual
Ressurection "F" - Goku and Vegeta learned how to tap into SSG on their own, without the need for the ritual
Universe 6 - They combined SSJ and SSG to create SSB, revealed against Hit
Fused Zamasu - They perfected SSB
Tournament of Power - Goku achives Ultra Instinct - sign -
Broly - is fine the way it is
Moro - Goku learns to tap into UI -sign- on command, and in the final battle we get a glimpse of Mastered Ultra Instinct, but it's not called Mastered, it's just called UI
Granolah - Goku continues to perfect his Ultra Instinct, Vegeta goes his own path with Ultra Ego
The rest of arcs - just them perfecting these forms, no need for the new ones (although this is battle shonen, transformations are a given)
Gohan:
Battle of Gods and Ressurection "F" - He's pretty much the same as he was in the Buu arc, he can go Ultimate, but his power hasn't increased
Universe 6 - After realizing he has no luxury of not training due to the past events, he beggins to train consistently and gets stronger
Tournament of Power - Gohan attains God ki or something similar to that due to training in Land of the Kais for so long, no new form, just God ki
Broly, Moro and Granolah - pretty much the same role
Super Hero - he combines Ultimate with God ki and achieves Beast, with slightly smaller bang hahaha
Piccolo:
Battle of Gods, Ressurection "F", U6 - Pretty much the same
Tournament of Power - He trains together with Gohan in Land of the Kais and gets his potential unlocked + unlocks God ki
Super Hero - he combines Ultimate and God ki and achives the Orange form
It became too "easy" to reach a new level. No wonder I tapped out at the end of DBZ
Just seeing goten and trunks make the strongest fusion its already make no sense
3:50-3:52 It’s always made sense in my head that the more powerful a saiyan is when they create a child, the more powerful and capable they’ll be at birth. By the time Gohan was born Goku was already the strongest on Earth (plus Gohan grew up in Battle), while by the time Goten and Trunks were born both Goku and Vegeta had already basically mastered Super Saiyan 1. It just makes sense that genetically speaking they’d already be born more powerful than natural
Goten sure, but Trunks was concieved _before_ Vegeta became a Super Saiyan
But thats not how genetics works… goku and vegeta were always capable of becoming this strong, so their genetics were always like this. That they can become all this kind of transformations is only possible, because their genetics are like this from the beginning. You dont change your genetics just because youre training hard, this would be the case if youre thinking of evolution like jean baptiste lamarck. But what we know today, is the evolution theory of darwin.
Ofcourse thats an anime, so its not real, but i just wanted to point that out haha
I like how Super is trying to get everyone to go their own unique way of getting stronger, and would keep that concept. Goku should have gone down the path of an Angel by training with Whis to master SSJ3 first, then he is trained in the arts of Divine Ki to obtain SSJG, and after that focus on Ultra Instinct. It should be a gradual evolution where he stays with these forms for a while to master them as a way of mastering himself.
Vegeta should follow a similar progression, but going down the path of a God of Destruction. Instead of getting SSJG like Goku, he should get SSJB, a mutation of Divine Ki that will set him on the tracks of unlocking his God of Destruction Mode. Instead of becoming a complete God like Goku, Vegeta wants to retain as much of his lineage as possible, going against the harmonious nature of an Angel. He can still keep the grades of SSJB, but once he has figured out how to go beyond that form, it evolves into Ultra Ego, a huge step into uncovering his God of Destruction Mode. After some training from Beerus, he eventually reaches the true potential of his path to power.
Piccolo should have been had at least one new form in Z, but since we're keeping to Super, I would have Piccolo also training with not only Whis, but Beerus as well, achieving two forms that differ from each other. His ultimate form a result of his training with Whis and his Orange form a result of his training with Beerus in their versions of Divine Ki.
Bulma can just upgrade the Androids with Divine Ki and/or Magic to give them an easy boost while upgrading their cybernetic parts with more powerful and durable materials.
I hate Beast Gohan and would prefer it if they continued for him to go down the path of a human with his Unlocked Potential form. So, instead of getting a new form, he just further develops what he has and possibly even learns magic to acquire a true Mystic form. I'm not completely sold on the idea myself, but it could be interesting.
That is to say, all of these should be built up over plenty of chapters/episodes to give a larger satisfaction in watching these characters achieve new levels of power. Perhaps after Goku goes SSJG against Beerus and loses, everyone puts it back into gear in fear and excitement of there being even more powerful beings out in the cosmos beyond their comprehension. Goku is trying to figure out ways to further SSJG on his own, but Vegeta takes the humble approach to be mentored by Whis and Beerus, being brushed off by the latter until Vegeta stands against Whis's methods of training in order to maintain what little pride he has left in his heritage. This catches the attention of Beerus who takes an interest in Vegeta's resolve to find his own way to power, begrudgingly taking the Prince of All Saiyan's under his wing.
With everyone on Earth still trying to find a way to increase their power, Frieza arrives, having been brought back to life by the Dragon Ball's from a subordinate or maybe even Cooler (who has been keeping to his own side of the universe until the death of his family, keeping a critical eye on the Z-Fighters, gathering information while preparing his plan to take them all out). Aware that Goku has obtained a new power that puts him in the realm of the Gods, Frieza had been training his ass off since his revival, equaling the power of the Z-Fighters (minus Goku in his SSJG form). Having prepared for his eventual defeat at the hands of the Saiyan Born on Earth, Frieza leads them all into a false security of defeat, allowing Frieza's secret weapon (or just Cooler) to take Goku out. With the Dragon Team on the verge of defeat, Vegeta arrives in his SSJB form to defeat Frieza and his forces.
Following this event, Goku and Piccolo, maybe some others, opt to learn Divine Ki as well. Goku wants to learn from Whis, believing the Angel would be the best teacher to help him master SSJG, while Piccolo decides to learn from both, applying their versions of Divine Ki to himself. Whis forces Goku to master SSJ3 first, while teaching Piccolo on how to obtain and control Divine Ki.
I'm not entirely sure which arc I'd want them to master their current forms and then achieve new ones, but it should all be foreshadowed and built up for the audiences enjoyability.
yap
Well said.!
@@supreme-XB People are right, us Dragon Ball fans cannot read I guess.
@@r-o-k I actually agree with this, but it would only be possible with a reboot of DBZ, which I'd be fine with.
I thought Beast Gohan was a great Idea, But poor in execution. My idea would be that the beast transformation would be something like a Super Saiyan 4 + Ultimate form type transformation, Which would give Gohan great power, But the draw back would be that the longer he stayed in the form, the more he loses control of himself and become an out of control beast. The next arc would be for Gohan to train and learn to control and stay in the form for longer periods without losing control.
No weight, no power behind, nothing
The problem is we DIDN’T GET new “forms”
It’s just fucking recolors.
Just rewatched the 3rd Budokai Tenkaichi and man, the show felt way different.
The grit, the brutality, art direction, choreography and stakes... oh boy. The fact Goku was facing a huge conundrum against Piccolo Jr.
And the blood and brutality.. That scene of Piccolo shoving his elbow on goku's wound still made me cringe of how painful it looked.
I also love Goku's fight with Tien. How goku had to figure out Tien's weaknesses.
Then came Raditz, the saiyans and journey towards namek. I just miss this kind of stakes on dragonball.
0:23 Nappa and Raditz: Vegeta why do you have titties?
Vegeta:Because im a princess
6:20 to be fair tho, Piccolo NEEDED it.
BROOOO THAT OUTRO SONG BROUGHT BACK MEMORIESSS. SONICCCCC. THE NOSTALGIAAAAA
What song is this?
@@Arcadious10 sonic unleashed apotos (day)
Super is what ruined super saiyan. All the sudden you can be a super saiyan just by feeling your back tingle for 15 seconds. Then, blue is just literally useless. It’s basically just the standard form… which never does anything. They made the red “god” form pointless.
Literally everything boiled down to needed to fuse or use ultra instinct.
So stupid. They ruined power scaling and had no idea how to make it work.
I feel like the comparison at 6:59 is a little dishonest. Dbz chapters were 90% of the time exactly 13 pages, meanwhile dragon ball super is consistently around 40-45 pages (let’s go with 40 because the first few chapters of dbs are shorter). If we do the math it comes out that 325x13=4,225 pages of dbz meanwhile 40x103=4,120 pages of dbs. Dbz and Dbs are surprisingly similar in length with Dbz just being about 105 pages longer. That’s 2 and a half dbs chapters away from being overtaken
well done. i subscribed bc of the quality
They kind of had something with super saiyan 3. The focus of the arc could have been how to prolong the transformation. In the cell saga, the problem of achieving super saiyan 2 was overcome when Goku taught Gohan how to *naturally* sustain super saiyan form. The buu saga could have somehow spent more time with the development of super saiyan 3. The weakness was never overcome.
That's actually a great idea! If SSJ3 was actually given development, we wouldn't have needed all the other random power ups like the 2 fusion methods and ultimate gohan. Granted, those are still cool, but they wouldn't have been necessary if SSJ3 was handled better as a climatic form.
The real reason why sjb couldn't replace sj as the defacto transformation, is that it failed to have the same impact. And no, impact doesn't just mean the initial introduction to the form (although it helps), or the amount of battles against main villains won (although it helps, a lot).
It has more to do with the fact that DBZ had some low budget gems of animation dedicated to sj for what should have always been just a mainstream shonen. Dragon Ball was never conceived with 12-24 episodes in mind, so asking for peak 90's shonen animation was too much, but when we think of sj, we remember only the highlights in animation, even though 95% of it was actually pretty bad.
But we had some highlights of sj throughout the series and that's what counts. sjb has only had a couple of animation highlights during ToP and that's it. It wasn't consistent, it wasn't long and it never shone at an important time. So we always were more pumped whenever regular sj showed.
That's the excuse for sjb, and that's why it constantly had to be improved upon and ultimately replaced by mng. But every other form had another problem, which is that super's manga is monthly, so that is x4.33 times less manga. So when you have a saga with a main villain that should've introduced at least a couple more forms in Z in the span of a year (52 chapters), you have just as many new forms in just 12 chapters.
I only see that as an issue for Goku and Vegeta though. Give everyone something, please. The manga isn't called "The Adventures of Goku and Vegeta". Super has done a decent job of making everyone relevant again, which is something that hadn't been seen to that extent since the saiyan saga in Z. But it's not enough. Everyone is having more moments, that's just great and Gohan and Piccolo have finally become interesting alternatives, paving the way to end of Z's Goku decision to leave Earth in capable hands (for the second time, but now for real).
And on that note, all of these had to be achieved in just 4 years (3 so far) of story, because end of Z happens 4 years into Super. So saying Dragon Ball Z got 7 transformations in the span of 13 years of story and Super got 14 in just 4 years cannot be used as an argument. It is valid argument, it's just not a good enough one.
Not sorry for the long comment.
I like how you called it migatte no gokui.
When you remove the PROCESS to any thing.
You disconnect the RELATIONSHIP.
We no longer have a relationship with there's forms... Only ss to ssj2. Really took the time to flesh out the emotion behind those forms...
You had a very good way of explaining the issue with super vs. Z. Well done.
This is why GT is great in this regard. They took a different route, especially visually AND it was used throughout the series, it became the SSJ of the show. If you remove the Golden Great Ape form (which technically was in DBZ and was barely used in GT), SSJ4 was the only one besides Full Power SSJ4, for the saiyans. It's like they knew the form was peak and GOATED, so they had no reason to bring out an SSJ5.
R.I.P TORIYAMA-SENSEI
Yes😢
Idc what nobody say, ssj 4, ssj god and ultra instinct is my favorite transformation to come out of db.
Sick, mine are
SSJ3
SSJ4
SSJG
UIO
Ngl despite all the issues with the show, I still like Dragon Ball Super. Especially Lord Berry’s, in my humble opinion I think he was one of the best characters in the entire series, he’s definitely of favorite character out of all of them. And as for Goku’s SSJG and SSJB forms.. I feel like the release time between the both of them should have been further apart like by at least 1 one year.
"Lord berry" 🤣
darn autocorrect@@Sole_x_animations
One of the reasons why I think Dragon Ball should've ended after Frieza is because of super saiyan. Keep in mind up to that point, Goku in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z was a person, you can use any number of adjectives, silly, funny, martial arts genius, but after that he became the guy with the transformations. Now you cant think of Goku, without thinking about all his different hairstyles!
That National Park theme from Pokemon was a staggering hit of nostalgia.
I'm glad I found your channel. I'm always happy to support a brotha. Toriyama definitely created a great thing for people all over the world to bond on. Your commentary is great, keep the heat coming 🔥🔥🔥
In my opinion. SSG should have been the standard transformation going into DBS. With SSGSS being a powerup that came during a critical moment in the story. Then we could have also gotten SSGSSxKK and SSBE, each with their own wins to show off their power. I would have saved UI and UE entirely into the Moro arc which would have increased the time where each transformation was relevant.
“Forms” new hair color and length 😂
I like the idea of having forms that are more of a side grade than a straight upgrade. Like making them more situational with different strengths and weaknesses
Different forms, different colours. The future of DBZ has many potentials.
The solution is simple: instead of pushing Goku through 10 forms, spread out the character development like we have all been asking
The battles SHOULD be so hard that like when Radtiz came - he died & was gone for a year just to get kaioken then Super Saiyan basically. Let Vegeta get some dubs in that time until he falls.
Then Gohan steps up. Then Piccolo. Let the Androids win some fights. Hell we HAVE been seeing this more to be honest. Krillin should have learned kaioken & other techniques by now.
I want a return to the older Z fighters. Tien can show back up & have a transformation. Let the kids grow individually instead of always merging.
You could give ONE new form every 50 chapters per person this way. Broly hasnt even started doing his part. Think about it. In 300 chapters we "could" get only 1 new form per person & still do a crap ton of development. It's all about not being lazy with the writing. Oh yeah & Pan & Uub is still in the wings, plus Buu. There are plenty of opportunities if they would stop focusing on 2-3 people. Also instead of always needing a form there are plenty of ways for the z fighters to teach each other different techniques and tactics. As I mentioned with Krillin and kaioken, why hasn't Vegeta combined his two finishers into one? Galick Gun AND Final Flash could be a single attack if mastered one in each hand. Galick Flash.
Things like this are possible & we have seen it used before. Goku has used Krillin attack and Gohan has used Piccolo's attack, but for as long as they have all been together and fighting each other you would think they would all know each other's moves much better than this.
God form and ui, mui makes sense
God form was literally a final resort to save the earth and ui, mui was to save the universe
Red triggered by a ritual and ui triggered through emotions and spirit bomb
Only bs forms are
Blue, perfected blue, pui
They should've never went away from the yellow
I think they need to go back to making Dragon Ball about Technique and Martial Arts instead of just transformations.
I completely agree. There was once a time where power was not the deciding factor, but technique and strategy. Someone like Krillin could've feasibly killed Frieza if his attack hit, or going back even further to the Tournaments of the original DB.
Even GT attempted this by making SS4 the ceiling of Saiyan power, forcing Goku and Vegeta to strategize against Omega. Super instead just whips a new magical power increase and slaps a literal coat of paint on it for the sake of plot progression.
Exactly original DB and Z are both character driven. DBZ had solid tension...Sayans arriving on earth, cat and mouse game on namik, the slow introduction of cell which was almost like a horror film. Super lacks all of that.
I personally think they should have explored the concept of god ki and SSG a lot more, the same way they did with super saiyan.
For example, there was a reason why super saiyan always felt grounded and down to earth before the buu saga. We understood how it worked. You needed a surge of emotion to unlock it, and most of the time, that surge came in the form of rage. After that, a saiyan would learn how to control their rage to activate the form at will, and control it much better. You can see how much control helps when you look at how Goku beat Trunks with a single finger. Then you get all the grades and how each grade has both upsides and downsides, until you get to grade 4 which is essentially ultimate control over super saiyan.
They could have done something like this with super saiyan god. A route of calmness and tranquility, that not only allowed them to tap into god ki at will, but would eventually lead them down the route of ultra instinct.
Maybe give us a God of a Creation sort of awakening. or have some of the non-saiyans seek out a path to god hood now that they know it's possible so that other characters are useful.
Goku and Vegeta both obtained god ki as part of their being, after simply absorbing the divine energy. And characters can give energy gifts to each other all the time. Is it unreasonable for Goku to just have Krillen drain all his energy to zero and have Goku gift him god ki, even if just to experiment if it would work. or to try to copy the ritual for the others, it wasn't really even all that hard for Goku to transform the first time, get five people to stand in a circle and think good thoughts, why not repeat that for Gohan or any one else? For Super being so focused on the gods, and mortals reaching their level, why only Goku and Vegeta>?
Future Trunks got robbed of his Super Human God form of just it being super saiyan but with a spirit-bomb sword. I would have liked to see some potential for non saiyans (even if he's half) to get something to achieve or reach for.
Your last paragraph is actually exactly what super did. SSB was an essential stepping stone to UI considering the fact that the form is all about control
Once they achieved God ki but were still struggling to fight against randos from other universes without one shotting them i knew the powerscaling and impressive impact of the new forms was just over.
Wasn't expecting 4:3 high-quality footage from this type of video.
Very nice.
Super Saiyan 3 I believe to be the only exception to the form problem, because Goku says the form is stupid and doesn't like using it because how draining it is, when he has other options. Goten and Trunks using it while fused makes sense, because the Fusion is a short term thing to begin with and they want to maximize their power output to the maximum during it.
This should be mentioned a lot more
The form is powerful but he never learned how to use it.
I wont lie my by biggest problem with Super Sayain is how unearned it made so many fights feel. Like think about Jiren for example. If Jiren had a power boost like Super Sayain then Goku would never have won, he wouldn't have even gotten far enough to unlock UI but even if he did he wouldn't win the fight. And I wont lie, it kinda annoys me when I see Goku and Vegeta training day in and day out, relentlessly, but they still can't compete with quite a few characters without relying on transformations. It also comes down, to me not being able to mentally picture how a lot of those characters got so strong, I mean even in the manga they have to introduce alternative methods for characters to become powerful, like using the dragon balls, or absorbing planets.
As an edit, I don't dislike the transformations entirely, I just hate the fact that if you want to beat Goku you have to be like 500x stronger to be on par when he's transformed. I actually really liked Super Sayain 1 and also Super Sayain God (But personally I don't see the need to link the god form to Sayains).
Jiren gets a power boost when he gets naked
@@FazeRustyNuts Everyone does, if someone attacks you get naked, I'm sure it throw them off.
I completely agree on your point about the god forms not being linked to saiyans. Saiyans as a species are already overpowered enough compared to Namekians, Androids, or especially humans. Making the pinnacle of divine power in the dragon ball multiverse a race exclusive thing is ridiculous. The only way I could see that working is if it was angel exclusive, since they're designed to be completely overpowered, to the point its a divine law that they can't go all out or else they get erased. Granted other races have ways of getting stronger, but Saiyans have unique access to divine forms exclusive to their race. SSG and SSB are saiyan forms that use god ki, but no other species in dragon ball has a race specific god ki form. I guess it's gotten better with more powerful forms and abilties for other races in some respects. Namekians can gain more power from the dragon balls than other races with a little extra, androids are consistently shown to be able to be created and improved beyond power thought possible at any given time, and, (while seemingly mutant exclusive,) the frieza race can achieve higher forms that can rival the gods.
oh?Jiren sat on his ass for most of the tournament saving his strength while the others were constantly fighting and getting stronger. Plus Goku matched Jiren in 45 minutes. Who knows how long Jiren had his power before the tournament?
And not a single form comes close to ssj4 😂😂😂
Interesting video, I like your takes and agree we should spend more time with each transformation.
I thought the way the manga explored ultra instinct was great but not enough. I like seeing the power evolve into a higher grade, learning the pros and cons of a transformation and how it can be improved upon.
On a side note, at least ultra ego feels right for Vegeta, but the writer really needs to choose if Vegeta as a character needs to go past his ego to reach new heights (ultra instinct?), or fully accept his ego and go on his own path of power.
Sublime analysis 👏👏👏👏👏
Quick correction. Not anyone can learn the Kaiken. It takes a special individual to learn it
@@r-o-k He's not kidding, not everyone can learn kaioken
In one year, Yamucha, Kurilin, and Tenshinhan got to Raditz's level, something Gokū couldn't do in eight years. Yamucha spent 130 days with Kai'ō-sama. Tenshinhan and Chaozu spent 260. What's Toriyama's excuse for not giving them the technique?
Goku wasn't even as strong as Raditz by the time he learned kaioken. The humans and Piccolo were already beyond Raditz by the time they died in the saiyan saga, so they should easily have been able to handle at least kaioken x2. Also, aren't the strongest humans in the world special individuals for being able to keep up with elite saiyan warriors, who were some of the strongest beings in the universe (at this point in the story before other characters were introduced)?
I'm someone who eats all the new transformations in any shows but for me they need to be actual transformation that give them something and not just blatant recolors. I'm sick and tired of these disco rainbow hair colors, they have run out of colors to give now so what next? Super saiyan rgb lights?
One thing i love about SSJ4 is that it has first of an unique look, the hair is longer and stays black, there is a tail and half of his body is covered in fur. Second the meaning behind it, i love how they went back to the saiyans history with the great ape and used that as a base as a sort of controlled form and how it was reached by having pan remind an out of control giant ape what he is actually fighting for and the way goku reached towards earth like he was homesick. Just beautifully done. Now super transformation are all the same, got his ass beaten and out of wazoo dyed his hair, well ss god as a bit unique as in he needed 4 saiyans but ehh that was reather anti climatic compared to every transformation before
they still got Orange.
@@ghoulchan7525 Orange Pickle
@@inferstrike3544 ah crap. Yeah.
Though it's not been used as a color for a Saiyan transformation so it's still unused.
@@ghoulchan7525 Yep, I hope we get Super saiyan Orange Pickle soon.
So don't like god and blue but like ssj2 wich changes almost nothing and 3 wich makes eyebrows disappear out of nothing and just grow hair? Also, there's no toriyama style in ssj4, an over complicated form in it's design. God, blue and ui are more similar to the og super saiyans and to toriyama's simplistic style
I hate when people count every little change in super saiyan as a form. Like its rlly 1,2,3,red blue, beast, ui, ego. Everyhting else is just some variation of a form. If i improve or perfect my handwriting I dont have two handwritings I just improved one.
If you’re referring to the grade forms it’s still calling it super saiyan just a different level of it
Great video all good points
Great video. I think they could come up with a way to artificially limit the Saiyans in a film where they have to find a way to unlock a firm again. And that struggle is what fills retrospectively fills that gap where the original training struggle was
1:02 “5 forms”
To me its dragonball everything doesnt have to be explained to us its not naruto , also when you start talking numbers you stop enjoying what your watching and turn into the very thing toriyama made fun of was the scouter . As for gohan form was the early concept of beast gohan but then the series continued so they simply went with ssj2 . Ive accepted super for what it was it didnt bother me they had all those forms its what fans expect lol
Its called Super Sayjan Blue.
Super Sayjan God Super Sayjan is literally a gag term. A joke. Going super sayjan while being a God is the path on how to get super sayjan blue, but that makes it not its name. I repeat, in the manga the term "super sayjan god super sayjan" is a term used as a joke. In the same scene they settled on calling it "Super Sayjan Blue", its true name. Throughout the anime its also only called "Blue" or "Super Sayjan Blue"
What? SSGSS is just what it is. SSj blue is just shorter
@@viciousv5395 No, ppl act like the forms actual name is super sayjan god super sayjan, while the primary main canon name for the form is super sayjan blue
@@dazedd-fi4yxliterally everyone and thier mother calls it super saiyan blue or SSGSS. It doesn't make a difference.
@@CoreTradingMastery again, ssgss is a joke term
@@dazedd-fi4yx It doesn't matter wether you think its a joke term or not. Is someone going to die if they say it? Your being a hardass over smth completely irrelevant.
Odd facts abt These forms;
- SSJ Rose (Anime-Only) is Black's SSJ1, meaning DB Heroes's Super Saiyan Rose 3 is technically canon?
- SSJ Blue Shinka (Vegeta dark Blue form in the Tournament), is supposed to be the SSJ Grade 2-3, but for Blue. Some people thought it was SSJ2 Blue, so i'm clearing that out.
As a throwback he even did the Super Vegeta pose and did a Final Flash during this form like the Cell Saga.
Bro who counts the perfected forms they don’t change from the form it’s perfecting so it not to be counted only perfected form that’s actually a form is cell not one else technically it’s only really like 10 or 9 now forms not 14 my boy
Ty Toriyama
I feel like if SSJ4 is reintroduced into Super, it should be exclusive to Broly and be his final form. It just makes sense as Broly has the most “Saiyan” transformations amongst the main cast.
Great video my friend
The original Super Saiyan up to Super Saiyan 2 was extremely well paced. There was much experimentation with form which fit the characters and how they handled it up to Cell.
I'm not sure why the humans didn't learn kaio ken. There could have been a lore reason why humans are much better suited to using kaio ken than saiyans allowing them to get higher multipliers. Still SSJG is my favorite form in the series. I didn't like it being replaced so quickly. In fact I think that SSJB should have been an alternative form. Two sides of the same coin. SSJG being the more defensive and tanky form while SSJB has lower defensive abilities but is more offensive oriented. Would have been cool to have seen a transformation that has two sides that they must balance.
Because the humans were forgot about long ago. They are basically furniture at this point. It's just the Goku and Vegeta show
Goku is a very special case
the kiyoken thing is really simple and explained in anime first humun dont know how to use ki secont who is teaching them kayoken 3 and last theyir body cant handle it like thats why goku had to train for it even then he could not use it for long time. i guess dbz fans really dont watch dbz
@@obito4168 There's a reason why Goku is the only person in history to have it, even king kai himself hasn't mastered it
@@obito4168 I think you need to work on your english. Also there is no reason why the humans didn't learn kaio ken other than King Kai not teaching them when they were on his planet. Yes it does put strain on the body but that would only limit the multiplier they can use
Well this video was a big nothing sandwich
You gonna eat that?
Here comes an controversial but correct opinion…
They never should’ve created Blue.
It should have been just Super Saiyan God, to introduce the concept of "God Ki," followed by Ultra Instinct. Also, if UI was less of a "transformation" and more just being "in the zone" like Black Flash in JJK I think it would have been cooler.
Battle of Gods set up Super Saiyan God as the new ceiling for Goku to reach. Goku hadn't learned how to fully tap into the power to maintain the transformation and Vegeta hadn't even unlocked it yet. There was room there to build the characters up to the new form after seeing a glimpse of it. And then immediately, in the very next movie, we get Super Saiyan Blue. And then Blue had an unimpressive showing for a good majority of its screentime, so everyone was anxious for the next form.
I call this LBGT forms we need all the colours of the rainbow! Missing gold? Let’s give Frieza gold colours maybe even black in the future! Piccolo let’s give him orange, blue green? Red pink, purple we got em all!
So we not gonna talk about SSJ4? The disrespect is insane since that was a solution in it of itself.
pointlesss video
💯
DBZ to the Buu saga, was perfection.
ssj blue should be used just in more unique and difficult occasions and not like daily basis, ssj god is such a badass transformation I really don’t know why they just don’t give af abt it, and they should work better with the forms along the fights too…
You are right and thank you for explaining that because I had similar thoughts about the transformations too.
I think having Goku and Vegeta diverge with instinct and ego is such a great concept and on top of that we have broly forms, and beast gohan, all forms that are the different saiyans incorporating their saiyan powers with there unique characteristics. As you can probably tell I'm a fan
One of the main issues with the forms after SSJ2 is that they started becoming more of a “shock factor” thing more than being built up to. SSJ3 came outta nowhere and we never saw Goku train to achieve it. I honestly believe that Goku’s statement of using his full power in the fight with Majin Vegeta was actually true at that time and that SSJ3 was something Toriyama came up with later to be a shock factor moment and that he didn’t originally have that form planned at the time of Goku Vs. Majin Vegeta. Same thing with SSB, specifically Vegeta, I think him going Blue in RoF was initially supposed to be a “surprise/shock factor” moment because once again at that time we didn’t see Vegeta train for it let alone we had no clue he even had God Ki. I think outside of SSJ, SSJ2, and SSG, the other forms were supposed to just be shock moment forms for us fans but eventually had to be incorporated into the plot, in my opinion with Super, I feel like Blue either should’ve been introduced in the Goku Black arc or not introduced at all and that SSG should’ve been the go to form until UI and UE(for the manga) or hell even could’ve had it to where SSG was the main God form until Goku unlocked UE in the ToP and Vegeta’s frustration at Goku surpassing him again leads to Vegeta unlocking SSB
The problem is mostly Super Saiyan Blue from my pov.
Did we really *need* another new form right after reaching Super Saiyan God and making Goku aware of a entire new realm of power? I dont think so.
Frankly. Early DBS Arcs should have been all about Goku and Vegeta trying to achieve the Super Saiyan God form using their own power, rather than depending on a ritual.
It's very lame imo that this proccess was just skipped off-screen by training with Whis for 3 years.
Goku should have only fully mastered the SSJG form by the time of the Tournament of Power.
You can remove the need of a "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" entirely just by doing that. And then only during the TOP and later arcs you could reveal Ultra Instinct/Ultra Ego to be next major power-ups. Since they achieve something beyond normal Godhood by using the signature technique of Angels and Destroyers respectively.
From a aesthetic point of view. I really appreciate the design of Vegeta using Blue Evolution, Goku Black using Rosé, Beast Gohan color pallete, [...] So I think it would have been a interesting gimmicky to make it so that every single Super Saiyan God is a different coloration to represent one's godhood.
Therefore, Goku can remain in the original red coloration. Vegeta's Super Saiyan God is royal blue. Black would be rosé to his disdain towards mortals...
So on and so forth. This way you can preserve the cool and unique transformation designs. Without having to crap out a entire new form every single arc
Problem? Id say multiple problems such as lack of originality, sloppy design, lack of taste and cringe. The original 4 transformations are so good. One replaces the previous one and it really feels as an improvement in power and badassness. Say what you want about DBgt but The SSJ 4 is just awesome and the next transformations shouldve taken it as it base. Fans in this case did a much better work, with the famous SSJ5 going around the net since 1999 and the one created in DBaf if I'm not mistaken, the Golden one. In the end, Miyamoto can be excused because he did so many great things with probably the best Anime series in history but man, wasn't anyone around to tell him that the new transformations were horrible in every sense of the word? Anyway, as a kid growing in the 90s, I'm happy to have enjoyed the good era of DB.
Think it has to be that Toriyama mentioned in an interview that the reason we don’t see grade 3 is because it’s a pain to draw, especially in fight scenes, which is why the form gets used so very little compared to the others. And I think that carries on over the super because when Goku achieve God form what’s his hair it’s his base form but red and when he unlocks blue, it’s his super Saiyan form but blue. Then his ultra instinct form is his base hair but first black than white. I think in the end it just comes down to how simple it is to constantly draw it
THANK YOU!!! I’ve always had this problem with super and could never really find anyone that agreed so this video was very refreshing
Tbh I a hundred percent agree with you that while most of the forms are cool they don’t get fleshed out that well. I think the general issue is they need the each have their build up.
Super saiyan 1, and 2 both have an incredible amount of build up prior to being achieved. Arguably this issue imo begins with super saiyan 3, but with blue, beast, and arguably orange piccolo (though I’d argue not really that’s more due to poor execution) a lot of the forms don’t really have a build up to them.
Nothing they do now will ever make me feel like I did when Goku broke into Super Saiyan on Namek. I was screaming. Stuff got flung around my room. I was in genuine awe. Toonami went hard in my middle school childhood.
the biggest blunder was how quickly they went from red to blue being the strongest form
Good vid well put
I have to agree.
The new forms in Super feel more like hand-outs, compared to the train and push the body to the limit/get put in a life or death situation.
The latter is always the better option, especially when you consider how new levels of power are achieved from the effort.
I do like the Ultra Instinct form, and I also like Kale's Berserker form, since it plays into her early depiction in the Tournament of Power, so I kind of want to see how her form works once she learns to control it.