the mystery of the blue wizards has always been what was most compelling about them to me. i like that Tolkien's world was productively unfinished, for everything that was told and fleshed out about it. the fact that things fade into a mist at the edges brings it to life.
@Danimal Same here!!! There needs to be more lore & history of the Istari, their Maia bloodline and relatives, more in-depth conversation with Oromë, Manwë & Illuvatar
I don't agree with the idea that the two blue wizards failing their task or being lured by temptation means that they turned to evil. Take Radagast for example, he failed because he gave in to the temptation of the beasts and wilds of middle-earth. I'm not sure how many people would consider this an 'evil' fate?
It's theorized that Radagast had been sent just as much to protect the wildlife as to inspire Elves and Men against Sauron, so that his failure may not have been total (i.e. he just ended up prioritizing one of his tasks more than the other)
I had always assumed Radagast hadn't failed. He made a choice not to return to the West because he so loved the birds and the beasts and the wilds of Middle Earth.
@Daniel M. can the blue wizards not fall in similar ways? Could they not just have loved the people they protected for thousands of years? Radagast fell in love with Middle Earth and fell from his purpose, despite seeing the mission through in his own way. The Blues could have equally just loved where they were and who they were with- the world of and many peoples of men, succeeding in their mission but still falling in their purpose. Not returning to Valinor as Gandalf did is hardly a punishment if they had no desire to go back. Maybe their bodies eventually faded as elves did and they departed. Who's to say.
I have thought about the blue wizards for years, trying to imagine what they did... my best guess is that they where looking for and/or defending the ent wives who were also last heard of heading east... even though ent wives and the blue wizards are not mentioned together. This could have been one of their goals at least...
My opinion is aligned with the last thoughts of Tolkien in regarding to these blue wizards as well. They were not completely successful in their mission but they disrupted the East just enough so that Sauron could not utilize its entire manpower and resources. This "half-success" maybe much more important for the history of Middle-Earth then what Saruman or Gandalf ever did. This might have won the war of the ring for the men of the west.
I think it's really interesting the way from the letter at 5:30 it sounds like the way Tolkein describes unfinished/unexplored ideas more like "I haven't discovered that yet" rather than "I've not decided yet".
Easily one of the greatest paradigms of Tolkien’s writing: he isn’t so much constructing a world about which he knows everything as the omnipotent creator and narrator, but rather he’s relaying the accounts of certain protagonists within this world who only know what they know, leaving many peripheral things out of focus in the mists of the frontiers. And yet his world building is more complex and in depth than anyone else, plus it’s written as though it’s the history of a real place. Just ingenious and astonishing!
I like to think that, although ultimately unsuccessful in routing out all of Sauron’s influence that the Two Blue Wizards rallied together what Men there were that opposed the might of Sauron. That as stated, if not for their deeds, the West would have been outnumbered in the battles of the 2nd and 3rd Age. Ultimately they, along with what Men remained faithful to the Valar, they fought in a glorious last stand that sadly no word of ever reached the Men of the West but no doubt proved pivotal in the triumph against Sauron.
My guess is the blue wizards were able to convince others from the East to fight Sauron's other forces in the area (Far East and South) along with persuading others to abstain from joining Sauron's forces.
And they were both women. There is zero reason to believe they were male, Men is generic for humanity when capitalized, the names don't suggest a gender. Them both being blue suggests something in common more than the other three (white, brown, grey). Women are better infiltrators so it makes sense they would go to the most dangerous place. The secrecy re names beyond Alatar & Pallando - are those male names? Why? Is that part of the disguise?
@@crhu319 Bruh there is no fucking way in hell they were women. Both of the are given two different names and there is no way Alatar and Pallando/Morinehtar and Rómestámo are female names. Noone wants your unnecessary woke bs. Get the heck outta here
I agree, it would also be very boring to read. It would be like reading Thomas Jefferson's Memoirs and Correspondence. Very little action, just stories about how they won favor from tribes of men. I guess a better analog would be Confucius... makes you wonder, with the comment about leaving behind teaching,
Not necessarily enemy territory though. Remember that these wizards were basically disguised as old men, and that the kingdoms of the East were just kingdoms of men so nothing out of the ordinary. Perhaps they lived peaceful lives within these lands, learning their cultures and languages? And eventually they persuaded some that Sauron is this evil entity enticing the Eastern people to riches. I don't think it was as hard as it seems
Here's a wild theroy, what if sauramon had tries to killed the blue wizards, but only managed to kill one of them. And the last blue wizard ends up becoming Merlin, and stay on his task till his eventual demise at the hands of Morgana who is actually the daughter of sauron or morgoth?
I created an entire RPG Campaign "The two Rods" about the East of MiddleEarth involving the fate of the 2 blue wizards. They were training and supporting some Easterling partisans fighting against Sauron during the War of the Ring.
Yep same, this is great lore to RP on. My campaign is about one of the two failed and got corrupted while the other died and reincarnated into one of the PC and lost his memories. He has to uncover the thruth and defeat his old "brother".
thats honestly awsome consept! i created a very similar rpg campaing of the war of the ring (but with the alternative scenario that Gandalf holds the ring back to the Shire when Frodo cries him to take it from him) and i m about to write some of tragic lore about those two wizards soon.maybe a painfull seperation and fall into shadow of another kind of "enemy" or something like that.
Man I miss the OLD school days of A D&D …..the first edition type material……allowed for so much game play to be under the careful watch of a good DM ….the only meaningful change we made was the introduction of two ( different colored ) 10 sided dice …….lots of interesting thing to do off straight percentage …the two different colors offer a host of cool ways to either punish or reward the behavior of players based on adherence to various characteristics that should be reflected in game play…..and of course various limited use items that could allow a player to use the dice to their advantage…..we even had ways of dealing with a horrible roll like 1,1 2,2 meaning if the character possessed the right items a four sided die roll could help a decent amount …..but a 1,1 followed by a 1 off the four sided die can still yield bad result …a 6 and 8 sided die could be used in some situations ….of course a roll total can never exceed a 100 % …..anyway I am rambling Everyone have a great day
The updated information about the blue wizards is not mutually exclusive with the old information. They could have both failed and succeeded at the same time. Their purpose was to cause disruption and to root out evil. They failed in that they did not directly confront sauron. However, they did succeed in disrupting a lot of his work in the east. The notes about them starting magical cults, and stuff can still be true. Their purpose was to disrupt, and these cults could still disrupt the influence of sauron.
Even the "old names" and the "new names" do not contradict. The old names Alatar and Pallando are their names as Maiar of Orome in Valinor, much like Gandalf is Olorin, Radagast is Aiwendil, and Saruman is Curumo. When they appeared in Middle Earth, Alatar came to be called Morinehtar because he was more of a warrior and "man of action" and Pallando came to be called Romestamo because he was the contemplative one, a "man of cautious action." I really enjoy imagining Liam Neeson as Alatar/Morinehtar and Jim Carter as Pallando/Romestamo. They are my Ithryn Luin.
I always imagined Gandalf having some sort of encounter with one or both of the blue wizards, and not a meeting of the most calm kind, it ending with him coming into possession of... his BLUE HAT!
Cirdan of the Havens was given a gift of foresight and also knew of the blue wizards. He knew the task given to him by the Valar was to wait and prepare for the return to the West. Putting these ideas together, it would make narrative sense if Cirdan waited for the blue wizards and provided for their return as he did for Gandalf. But with the gift of foresight and clarity of purpose, perhaps he knew they weren't coming.
I imagine that the Blue Wizards' mission was successful. They kept Sauron from raising the support he needed from the Eastern nations and peoples that existed beyond the classic map of Middle Earth.
I have a strong feeling that you two are the Blue Wizards, survived all the events of Arda and opened a youtube channel in order to share your deep knowledge of Ea
It's fair to assume that the blue wizards were not finished with their mission when Gandalf went home. Their mission was to harry, distract, and divide enemy forces. The East is still there, and even with Sauron's recent defeat, there would still be temples, and cities who worshiped him. Gandalf's job was done, but perhaps the blue wizard's jobs were not quite entirely finished.
It always struck me in my first few readings of The Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion that the lands to the east were huge, and we never heard of the Southern and Eastern seas. As such, when I read of the Istari in the Silmarillion, it struck me that the tale was largely untold, in that the realms where Sauron's influence was greatest there were not larger forces arrayed against the West. We read of the times when they were attacked by individual kingdoms of the East, such as the Wainriders, but the concerted efforts of Sauron in the War of the Ring (and the War of the Last Alliance) were insufficient for such a geographic scale. As such, when the Histories of Middle Earth were finally released, I really took to the story of the Blue Istari, as it then made logical sense to one of the few aspects of Middle Earth that had previously plagued me as illogical (or at least untold).
My guess that they had a mix of the two suggestions Tolkien made. That in a lot of ways they were pre-eminent in the eastern struggles to free Sauron's servant peoples and drew a lot of pressure off the west but at the same time created magic cults and traditions that drew men further from Eru and the Valar. So they failed (As we know since Gandalf was the only entirely successful Istari) but in less and different ways than Saruman and Radagast.
I like the latter explanation of them dying after whittling away at Saurons forces for centuries. I can picture two buffed older men with small beards armed with swords and staffs jumping out of the shadows cutting huge swaths of orcs goblins and trolls only to vanish for a year or two then appear to do it again
Thank you so very much for this. I was a young American bot immigrant to the UK in the very early 70s. The Hobbit was school reading at 9 and by 12 I read LotR. In my teen's Silmarillion was published, but I never finished it. The mention of the "Blue Wizards" in the "The Hobbit" movie jaunted my memory a bit and irritated me since as I did not recall much, but this summary really was fantastic at filling in that gap as being conspicuous in its absence to all.
Its always been my head canon that Radaghast and the blue wizards "Failed" first then somehow redeemed themselves. Saruman seemed the only one corrupted by hubris and greed so its fitting to me that the others would get a chance to do something good. I remember reading about how there were no dragons from the east to help Sauron and always attributed that to the blue wizards. It's cool to think about samurai/chinese or other eastern themed style heroes aided by the blue wizards against similarly styled villains
I am not sure there were no dragons in the East. We know some of the Dwarf founding fathers went East. We also know four of the Dwarf rings were consumed or destroyed by dragons. We can accurately guess that Smaug got Thrain II's ring when he killed him. He also may have gotten a ring from a Dwarf King in Gundabad. Smaug could have done this because we know he was living nearby in mountains near Gundabad before he flew down to Erebor. That leaves two rings that dragons got. Since we no almost nothing about what happens in the far East, it makes sense that dragons were out there too and got the last two rings.
I like to think that the two blue wizards died in some final stand, and whilst they may have been killed, they completed their mission with their final breath.
awesome vid James enjoyed i reckon their going to be an important part in the amazon tv show and because their is so little written about them it give the writers a lot of leeway on what they can do with them
It made no sense to me that Sauron sat right in the midst of his strongest enemies and just retreated the moment they found him. Particularly when he had an entire kingdom with impenetrable walls that he could have built his strength in. Unless, he had to hide from the Blue Wizards until he was strong enough to face them. I like that narrative.
I love the idea of the Blue Wizards, personally I'd love to see an adaptation of what they were possibly doing during the events of Lord of the Rings, considering how little we know, there a huge sandbox for writing what could have possibly happened
Near the end of his life, Tolkien retconned his earlier statement on the blue wizards by later stating that they actually were able to organize resistances of men in Harad and Rhun who continued to resist Sauron and Melkor’s influences. He even went to say that their operations would be a factor towards victory in the west against Sauron. Interesting perspective to see; men from Harad and Rhun who worked to resist Sauron.
I've always thought that of all of the (mostly) unexplored areas of Tolkiens's works - The Blue Wizards have the most amazing potential for storyline expansion (I realise of course it would all be non Canon etc)
I think maybe, like so many other unfinished and undeveloped stories and characters from Tolkien, he perhaps intended to write a separate story about the blue wizards but, unfortunately, like so manyof his creations were never finished. Perhaps like the unfinished sequel to LOTR, the new shadow, maybe these cults arose from the blue wizards. But when that fell by the wayside, their stories changed a bit to give at least some meaning to their existence overall. But their mystery is such a wonderful thing in itself as it spawns do many intriguing stories, theories and discussions such as this.
Interesting my grandmother was a huge fan. She read the Whole set to me out loud as a child. I heard she saved a written reply from the author to a letter she sent to him. It was signed and my family still has it. Loved all the books!
Seems possible that since Arda was transformed into a sphere and the Blue Wizards went far into the east of Middle Earth they just continued east & arrived back into Valar by entering Valar from the west across some unknown sea.
It would be amazing to see a continuation with these 2 Ishtari being the main wizards now in the place of Gandalf and Saruman. With History repeating itself, having one of them succumbing to a new evil and the other aiding in the defeat of this evil. It would be poetic if this were the case.
Tolkein was probably saving them for a later project, because he was focusing on LOTR and the Hobbit…the quality and effort really shines through. Fail or succeed, I would hope someone could bring their story to life. They probably fell in some battle in the East, somewhere knee deep in enemy territory. Then their disciples or friends took the blue wizards teachings and perverted them, essentially making the dark arts of the East….I think.
Blue is seen by many as a healing colour. Perhaps they became the sources for wisdom in the arts of repairing the hearts, minds and environments that had been damaged?
I like the idea of them failing because it makes the accomplishment of Gandolf that much greater -- being the only Istari that succeeded and stayed true to his purpose
It would be cool if there would be so many shows on different parts of Middle-Earth. Imagine a show on the missions of the Blue Wizards or Radagast’s contributions during the War of the Ring.
That`s because there are no more info. There are only few lines of text covering the whole topic of blue Wizards that Tolkien have ever written even in the history of middle earth collection is counted and rest is pure speculation, intepretation and fan fiction.
I am fascinated by the work you put on your efforts. You seem to do such a deep analysis on everything. Brilliant work. Could you try and do something about the Entwives? Give us your own insight!
Here's an idea: "what if sauron actually did sway one or even both of the blue wizards? How much damage could two or three wizards under sauron's influence cause?
Each one would have caused about as much damage as a balrog as both balrogs and the Istari were Maiar. In terms of temporal destruction, balrogs and dragons were considered on par although like the Maiar not all were equal in power. I'd also note that it was a Vala, Melkor who swayed the balrogs to his cause so his lieutenant Sauron (also a Maiar) may have had much less success in turning them, and perhaps they would have still refused to unleash their full power as the Vala had forbidden them. Personally I think they would have done similar to Durin's Bane or Smaug in eliminating a kindom's worth of land for men/elves/hobbits or been a somewhat more powerful Witch-King. Indeed one could say that it was exactly what happened with Saruman, swayed or manipulated by Sauron but incompletely to the point where even if he wasn't made his home a house for orcs and through his agent severely crippled Rohan and was ready to do to it what Durin's Bane did to Moria, and finally when confronted by Gandalf didn't try to go Super Saiyan.
They traveled into the east, lived long lives, and later helped save an orphanage from being shut down. By then they'd taken on the aliases Jake and Elwood.
I would love to see a film version of the two Blue Wizards even without a clear Tolkien-created storyline. I would also love to see the great Bill Nighy and Charles Dance cast in those roles.
I remember from The Hobbit Unexpected Journey, Gandalf was telling Bilbo about the other wizards and he said that he forgot the blue wizards names. That is how I got to this video
“Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion... and after his first fall to search out his hiding and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East... who both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have... outnumbered the West.” I believe the Blue Wizards did come earlier than the other 3 wizards
My own fan fiction has my character, a human pipe weed trader from Bree, traveling to the furthest East and meeting the Blue Wizards. Imagine a Marco Polo character in Middle Earth who meets the two mysterious Istari. I am also looking for the missing Entwives as a favor for Tom Bombadil and Treebeard.
Badass ! I was JUST talking with my dad ( long time lotr fan, die hard ) about it last week, I plan to write my own fan fiction as well with my own character. I have yet to decide when it will take place and what I’ll be doing. But you gave me some ideas and courage to do it!
Admittedly, I have a personal involvement, being named after one but I always like the idea of them having done what they could to subvert and mitigate the power of Sauron in the east; Then settling down into Bombadil-esque lifestyles. Enjoying the splendour of middle earth... Fucking with no-one, but suffering no-one to be be fucked with...
I'd like to belive that they failed to return, but not as saruman, but like Radagast. Perhapps they fell in love with the east of middle earth and decided to dwell there, instead of returning to Valinor, which by now might have been a distant fading memory.
If I could pick up the storyline myself, I would focus on one of the blue wizards. I would give him a new quest from the gods. As magical and mythical creatures began to disappear from the land the gods knew that mankind would still need guidance as they would focus their attention on one another. So throughout the ages that one blue wizard would be there to help guide and influence certain kings. Eventually he would be known as, Merlin.
It’s unfortunate these two blue wizards only got references with small bits of information and not more complete stories. I’d definitely been interested in movies and books being done about these two and their adventures.
During the time of the Watchful Peace Sauron had, in fact, abandoned Dol Guldur and fled into the East for that period of time, having fled the fortress when Gandalf investigated it in T.A. 2063.
I believe they failed to prevent the Easterlings and Southorns from joining Sauron, but they prevented other major kingdoms from the east/south to join Sauron and possibly helped restore those lands during the fourth age.
It appears that the blue wizards did in deed succeed in their tasks. They minimised the strength of forces coming out of the east to aid in the attacks in the west. They also may have also been responsible for Sauron secretly returning to Dol Guldur to hide and regain his strength as the two blue wizards appear to have been relentlessly searching for him in the east, while in the west their was a belief that Sauron was no threat at all as he had be vanquished and his ring was most likely lost forever.
I agree with you. This two wizards, through seldom mentions and hardly remembered by the rest of the story play the biggest yet unseen part that brought victory to the North West. I'd do anything to read even a fanfic about this two maiar. Or maybe if chance have it, Ill be writing it myself and post in on wattpad. Who knows..
You mention toward the end that the blue wizards remained unknown, but that’s just because the perspective of the readers of Tolkien’s work was on the west, not the east where they were active. It’s entirely plausible that those in the east had never heard of Gandalf or Radagast since they stayed in the west, though they might remember Saruman (or whatever name he went by there) as he journeyed to the east as well.
I loved playing Fallen Alatar in the Iron Crown Enterprises Middleaerth Trading Card Game. So much fun, hunting down my enemies monsters while raising armies!
In my head canon, the blue wizards aided humans and succeeded in their mission, but at the cost of their health. First they got tortured and their tongue was cut out for inciting a failed revolution, so they had to teach some trusted humans spells, that need to be vocalized. Then they succeeded, but were too weakened to attempt the journey back to the west.
There are so many possibilities for the blue wizards. I like to think that they rallied tribes in the east against Saurons influence. Perhaps one or both of them died as martyrs and this spawned a cult-like following. Another thing that I think is interesting is the Haradrims fascination with snakes/serpents. Maybe this symbology came from one of the blue wizards?
This is what the Amazon series should've focused on. There's so much potential with these stories depicting the eastern and southern lands of Middle Earth
Because of their blue robes they were too easily detected by the forces of Sauron so they where silently recalled by the Valar. It was an embarrasing tactical mistake nobody likes to talk about.
When I think of the Blue Wizards, do not think of their success or failure, but of what possible place they had in the 4th age & the New Shadow. I think that if Tolkien had the time, he would have revisited that idea & developed the concept further, & that the Blue wizards would have had a place of prominence in that story. But, we’ll never know, really.
Gaaaagh! I wish we knew more about the Blue Wizards. I hope we get a little about them in the Amazon series, but I'm not holding my breath on that one. Great video, guys!
At 11:30 a picture is revealed, showing that one of the blue wizards is actually Sir Anthony Hopkins... or was it Odin, having arrived in Middle Earth?
Since Middle-Earth is supposed to be English mythology, imagine if one of the blue wizards eventually becomes Merlin and completes his task by helping King Arthur. I know King Arthur is a mixture of English and mostly French, but I always thought the idea funny.
@@worldtraveler8613 I think he’s referring to Le Morte D’arthur, a retelling of the Arthur legend which has elements of English, French and Welsh folklore.
I find it so interesting that there are two seemingly VERY important characters in the world of Middle Earth that we just know almost nothing about. It makes the Lord of the Rings feel like a documentation of a long forgotten time with only bits and pieces of the end of that era that were actually recorded. It makes the world feel more believable and alive since these characters are basically just lost knowledge since they weren't directly involved with the war and the victors who were written about.
I have always liked the idea that the blue wizards were 'disposed' of by Saruman. I think it is interesting how the three of them travel to the East, but only Saruman returns. We also do not know what exactly befalls Radagast, but we know that his control over the birds does not seem to return to Radagast - so possibly he suffered the same fate as the two Blue wizards. My thinking for this is because Saruman speaks about having the rods of the five wizards to Gandalf in the return of the king. By this idea, the two Blue wizards failed at their task like Saruman, but in a different way.
If Saruman offed the Blue Wizards during their initial travel east, that would infer Saruman was already evil at the very beginning of his mission as head of the Istari. He may have had a stronger predisposition to corruption than the other Wizards, hence his actions during the War of the Ring, but no indications in the source material that he displayed outward signs of malevolence that far back, or that his thoughts strayed from the mission the Valar charged the Istari to fulfill. The Valar would have known of such inclinations before accepting him. I think we can safely rule out that possibility. If later in history Saruman wanted to do away with the Blue Wizards what would be the motive? They were far away to the East doing easterly things with easterly people. Probably thousands of miles away. I'd think they posed less of a threat than poor Radagast, who was actually harmless except perhaps to himself. Gandalf was the main thorn in Saruman's side, and of course the Fellowship which was intent on destroying the Ring. It would have been a major undertaking to dispatch a force to deal with these Wizards, and that assumes he knew of their whereabouts. Neither seems likely.
@@jamesaron1967 Thanks for your reply :-) It is nice to talk about it! I feel like I read that twice Saruman went into the East, and on the final venture he returned alone. Perhaps I am getting confused. It was this second time which I thought seemed suspicious. If anyone was to know the whereabouts of the Blue wizards, surely Saruman would have had the best idea. Particularly before he made his residence in Orthanc, he was based primarily out of Gondor I believe (close to the East). I had thought his motive would be either to eliminate any potential threat to him, (particularly if they sided against Saruman and with Gandalf), and that he was quite the collector of rare items. I feel it would add to his egotistical persona of himself as being 'the best' by adding their staffs to his collection. He does make a comment to having the five wizard rods, but perhaps that is just Saruman at attempting to sound like the free peoples still need his help.
@@Commodus358 His only chance was to jail them. An Istari returns after being killed. He didn't, he liked being the leader too well, and they did complete their missions. But he could have tricked them into staying there, just to weakening Sauron so Saruman (himself) could take the ring, only being bothered by Gandalf.
5:45 - "founders of secret cults that outlasted Saurons JRRT sequel to the LOTR 'The New Shadow" was going to potentially about that. In which the two wizards would have played big parts
I can imagine a sacrificial moment of the two. Or maybe even a schism at some point where they separate over two different mindsets or beliefs on how to approach the war and their goals. What if one of them fell to temptation but the other did not, pitting the two against each other?
The Blue Wizards succeeded in the Second Age, leaving in the beginning of the Third Age to return to The West. It is decreed by Eru through Manwe and the remaining Valar that the Blue Wizards will make their own choice whether to or not return to Middle Earth with the others intending to be sent. While Alatar originally wanted to, going with Saruman, he then convinced Pallando to join him, continuing their tasks, upon which, he agreed. Because of this it was determined that Radagast would go, serving Yavanna. Lastly, because he knew fear of Sauron went Gandalf. When Sauron fell, the Blue Wizards whom were in the FAR East had far to travel coming home, the distance of the east being greater than that of the the west may have returned Un-heralded as all had left before. With the "Magic" that existed in Middle Earth failing, any means they may have previously had of expedited travel was gone. They joined their brother Olorin in the West, returning to the Valar as they previously had unlooked for but ever welcomed...
In my opinion on the blue wizards, I would see Ithryn potentially "Failing" his task beset to him in getting lost in the hunt of darkness. Probably to eventually succumb to a fight that either outlasted him or overwhelmed him in his callous pursuit of annihilating evil, in which case he must have become blinded by his righteous path and therefore took on more than he could handle. As for Luin, I can see him succeeding and not failing or being blinded from his task as the 'East-Helper'. For Luin, I can see him eventually living out his days in peace after hard work of uniting those of the East against the forces of Evil. I can also see a potential 'conflict' of sorts between the two blue wizards in which Luin tried to steer Ithryn back to his true task instead of delving deep into the grand hunt of darkness. At which point I would say they would have parted ways and took on their own tasks individually. Basically, my opinion is somewhat a mirroring of what happened between Gandalf and Saruman, in which Saruman fell to temptations of power, and Gandalf had success in his undertakings along his path.
I’d like to think that they were good and played behind the scenes roles on purpose and continued to do that for many many years. That either the cults were a coverup, plot to spy or just from others viewing their dealings. It would be nice to think of them as a more mysterious and that ultimately only one of the 5 turned evil.
Thank you for keeping so vigorously to Canon. I have less than zero interest in the the various movies etc. I find it entirely appropriate to take Tolkien’s words later in life and speculate that the Blue Wizards were not failures but “fell fighting the good fight”. Thank you. I like that.
It's also possible Saruman corrupted them, or even betrayed them in the east, which would explain why Saruman came back west by himself.. Maybe THAT would be an awesome last movie, how the blue wizards erode the east and in so doing play a massive part in the reducing their role in Saurons army
Kind of funny to think that the "two blue" COULD show up in the Amazon series, if you follow the narrative that they arrived around the time of the forging of thin One Ring...
Please make a video about Saruman's ring. I always wondered if he put part of his power in it and used it to control his army which is why he lost the power he had before.
Sticking with the light motif in Tolkien's lore the Wizards to my mind are like the different wavelengths of light, the Blue Wizards are more like blue and Ultra-Ultraviolet. Their actions are unseen because they're off in far away lands and perhaps one of them is often in unseen realms, the spirit world. I think their mission may not have been on the same "spectrum" as the other wizards either, for them it didn't end when Sauron did. With the Elves leaving there's less capable people able to deal with certain lingering localized threats both seen and unseen. Can't just kill him and leave, Middle-Earth needs some after care. Both Sauron and Melkor did a lot of physical damage to the world but we can't forget that both were spiritual beings, angels, so there's a whole other side to everything they did. There's a whole other world within Middle-Earth, that's where Sauron dominated the Nine. Just like Mair get attached to their physical form, Sauron weaponized the opposite of that and slowly got them detached from their physical forms. The rings were like quicksand, slowly sucking them in. An immortal gets attached to their form with prolonged use or indulgence, maybe a mortal gets detached from prolonged absence, not realizing they're slowly fading or wasting away.
It isn't canon, but I like to imagine that The Blue Wizards had a special task assigned by Iluvitar and The Valar : specifically to open a sort of window through which Iluvitar could project influence into Middle-Earth, tripping Gollum at The Crack of Doom, so that he fell in and destroyed The Ring.
Hey, that's my art at 5:54!!! Thanks for using it, I'm honored. Cheers
The sheer quantity of content that Tolkien created is amazing. The man must have written all day every day
Took him 10 years...
@@nathanmonger8423 some was written in the trenches of WW1
Tolkien probably did write every day of his life. Probably during all the time he could spare.
Ok thanks. I thought I read some was written when in war.
@@tonyhall3845 he at least thought up the story of middle earth in the trenches, not sure if he started writing it down back then
the mystery of the blue wizards has always been what was most compelling about them to me. i like that Tolkien's world was productively unfinished, for everything that was told and fleshed out about it. the fact that things fade into a mist at the edges brings it to life.
Very well said
God I wish there was more lore and content about the Istari out there just in general
Destroyer of Darkness = Dao/Tao.
Helper of Man = Buddha/Kung Fu.
?
@@FlyingAxblade_D20 So, Morinehtar -> China and Rómestámo -> India..?
@Danimal
Same here!!! There needs to be more lore & history of the Istari, their Maia bloodline and relatives, more in-depth conversation with Oromë, Manwë & Illuvatar
HI! seriously
who wspeaks this....? caught me drunk...but you speach me ...we are not neighborgores, fuck can't type..you are brother...hello
worst reply ever LOL
man I just up...love you let me put out my dog....I'll be back
I don't agree with the idea that the two blue wizards failing their task or being lured by temptation means that they turned to evil. Take Radagast for example, he failed because he gave in to the temptation of the beasts and wilds of middle-earth. I'm not sure how many people would consider this an 'evil' fate?
It's theorized that Radagast had been sent just as much to protect the wildlife as to inspire Elves and Men against Sauron, so that his failure may not have been total (i.e. he just ended up prioritizing one of his tasks more than the other)
@@OceanHedgehog I could see that being the case for sure.
I had always assumed Radagast hadn't failed. He made a choice not to return to the West because he so loved the birds and the beasts and the wilds of Middle Earth.
@@jamesaron1967 what’re you even talking about dude
@Daniel M. can the blue wizards not fall in similar ways? Could they not just have loved the people they protected for thousands of years? Radagast fell in love with Middle Earth and fell from his purpose, despite seeing the mission through in his own way. The Blues could have equally just loved where they were and who they were with- the world of and many peoples of men, succeeding in their mission but still falling in their purpose. Not returning to Valinor as Gandalf did is hardly a punishment if they had no desire to go back. Maybe their bodies eventually faded as elves did and they departed. Who's to say.
I have thought about the blue wizards for years, trying to imagine what they did... my best guess is that they where looking for and/or defending the ent wives who were also last heard of heading east... even though ent wives and the blue wizards are not mentioned together. This could have been one of their goals at least...
Especially seeing as they came in the 2nd age when the ent wives were said to leave the west
Very good!
That may become my new head canon 📋
🤯 Maybe they’re guarding the ent wives in a desert oasis far to the east or only one is because Sauron and khamul got the other blue wizard🧙♂️🧙♂️
My opinion is aligned with the last thoughts of Tolkien in regarding to these blue wizards as well. They were not completely successful in their mission but they disrupted the East just enough so that Sauron could not utilize its entire manpower and resources. This "half-success" maybe much more important for the history of Middle-Earth then what Saruman or Gandalf ever did. This might have won the war of the ring for the men of the west.
I think it's really interesting the way from the letter at 5:30 it sounds like the way Tolkein describes unfinished/unexplored ideas more like "I haven't discovered that yet" rather than "I've not decided yet".
Easily one of the greatest paradigms of Tolkien’s writing: he isn’t so much constructing a world about which he knows everything as the omnipotent creator and narrator, but rather he’s relaying the accounts of certain protagonists within this world who only know what they know, leaving many peripheral things out of focus in the mists of the frontiers. And yet his world building is more complex and in depth than anyone else, plus it’s written as though it’s the history of a real place. Just ingenious and astonishing!
I like to think that, although ultimately unsuccessful in routing out all of Sauron’s influence that the Two Blue Wizards rallied together what Men there were that opposed the might of Sauron. That as stated, if not for their deeds, the West would have been outnumbered in the battles of the 2nd and 3rd Age. Ultimately they, along with what Men remained faithful to the Valar, they fought in a glorious last stand that sadly no word of ever reached the Men of the West but no doubt proved pivotal in the triumph against Sauron.
My guess is the blue wizards were able to convince others from the East to fight Sauron's other forces in the area (Far East and South) along with persuading others to abstain from joining Sauron's forces.
And they were both women. There is zero reason to believe they were male, Men is generic for humanity when capitalized, the names don't suggest a gender. Them both being blue suggests something in common more than the other three (white, brown, grey).
Women are better infiltrators so it makes sense they would go to the most dangerous place. The secrecy re names beyond Alatar & Pallando - are those male names? Why? Is that part of the disguise?
I don’t hate that idea!
@@crhu319 I thought the colour was just why/who chose them to go down, like white for leader, grey because alliteration and brown because of nature
@@crhu319 Bruh there is no fucking way in hell they were women. Both of the are given two different names and there is no way Alatar and Pallando/Morinehtar and Rómestámo are female names. Noone wants your unnecessary woke bs. Get the heck outta here
In many ways the Blue Wizards had a harder job. They went straight into enemy territory from the start
Not really
I agree, it would also be very boring to read. It would be like reading Thomas Jefferson's Memoirs and Correspondence. Very little action, just stories about how they won favor from tribes of men. I guess a better analog would be Confucius... makes you wonder, with the comment about leaving behind teaching,
Not necessarily enemy territory though. Remember that these wizards were basically disguised as old men, and that the kingdoms of the East were just kingdoms of men so nothing out of the ordinary. Perhaps they lived peaceful lives within these lands, learning their cultures and languages? And eventually they persuaded some that Sauron is this evil entity enticing the Eastern people to riches. I don't think it was as hard as it seems
Here's a wild theroy, what if sauramon had tries to killed the blue wizards, but only managed to kill one of them. And the last blue wizard ends up becoming Merlin, and stay on his task till his eventual demise at the hands of Morgana who is actually the daughter of sauron or morgoth?
@@wrathsreign7227 Merlin and Master Yinsid from disney lore
I created an entire RPG Campaign "The two Rods" about the East of MiddleEarth involving the fate of the 2 blue wizards.
They were training and supporting some Easterling partisans fighting against Sauron during the War of the Ring.
Sick! I'd participate!
Yep same, this is great lore to RP on.
My campaign is about one of the two failed and got corrupted while the other died and reincarnated into one of the PC and lost his memories. He has to uncover the thruth and defeat his old "brother".
thats honestly awsome consept! i created a very similar rpg campaing of the war of the ring (but with the alternative scenario that Gandalf holds the ring back to the Shire when Frodo cries him to take it from him) and i m about to write some of tragic lore about those two wizards soon.maybe a painfull seperation and fall into shadow of another kind of "enemy" or something like that.
Man I miss the OLD school days of A D&D …..the first edition type material……allowed for so much game play to be under the careful watch of a good DM ….the only meaningful change we made was the introduction of two ( different colored ) 10 sided dice …….lots of interesting thing to do off straight percentage …the two different colors offer a host of cool ways to either punish or reward the behavior of players based on adherence to various characteristics that should be reflected in game play…..and of course various limited use items that could allow a player to use the dice to their advantage…..we even had ways of dealing with a horrible roll like 1,1 2,2 meaning if the character possessed the right items a four sided die roll could help a decent amount …..but a 1,1 followed by a 1 off the four sided die can still yield bad result …a 6 and 8 sided die could be used in some situations ….of course a roll total can never exceed a 100 % …..anyway I am rambling
Everyone have a great day
The updated information about the blue wizards is not mutually exclusive with the old information. They could have both failed and succeeded at the same time. Their purpose was to cause disruption and to root out evil. They failed in that they did not directly confront sauron. However, they did succeed in disrupting a lot of his work in the east. The notes about them starting magical cults, and stuff can still be true. Their purpose was to disrupt, and these cults could still disrupt the influence of sauron.
Even the "old names" and the "new names" do not contradict. The old names Alatar and Pallando are their names as Maiar of Orome in Valinor, much like Gandalf is Olorin, Radagast is Aiwendil, and Saruman is Curumo. When they appeared in Middle Earth, Alatar came to be called Morinehtar because he was more of a warrior and "man of action" and Pallando came to be called Romestamo because he was the contemplative one, a "man of cautious action." I really enjoy imagining Liam Neeson as Alatar/Morinehtar and Jim Carter as Pallando/Romestamo. They are my Ithryn Luin.
So happy that the intro is baaaack! Also, this was excellent and always great background. Love learning about the wizards.
I always imagined Gandalf having some sort of encounter with one or both of the blue wizards, and not a meeting of the most calm kind, it ending with him coming into possession of... his BLUE HAT!
I always liked the idea that one of their missions was to find out what happened to the Entwives.
Thanks! I really enjoy your work, and appreciate all of the research that you put into your videos.
Thank you so much for the support! We can not say how much we appreciate it 😁
Cirdan of the Havens was given a gift of foresight and also knew of the blue wizards. He knew the task given to him by the Valar was to wait and prepare for the return to the West. Putting these ideas together, it would make narrative sense if Cirdan waited for the blue wizards and provided for their return as he did for Gandalf. But with the gift of foresight and clarity of purpose, perhaps he knew they weren't coming.
I imagine that the Blue Wizards' mission was successful. They kept Sauron from raising the support he needed from the Eastern nations and peoples that existed beyond the classic map of Middle Earth.
I have a strong feeling that you two are the Blue Wizards, survived all the events of Arda and opened a youtube channel in order to share your deep knowledge of Ea
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go v v vv
Be v h bbb
GggAaaayyyyy
It's fair to assume that the blue wizards were not finished with their mission when Gandalf went home. Their mission was to harry, distract, and divide enemy forces. The East is still there, and even with Sauron's recent defeat, there would still be temples, and cities who worshiped him. Gandalf's job was done, but perhaps the blue wizard's jobs were not quite entirely finished.
Down the rabbit hole we go. Love this channel.
It always struck me in my first few readings of The Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion that the lands to the east were huge, and we never heard of the Southern and Eastern seas. As such, when I read of the Istari in the Silmarillion, it struck me that the tale was largely untold, in that the realms where Sauron's influence was greatest there were not larger forces arrayed against the West. We read of the times when they were attacked by individual kingdoms of the East, such as the Wainriders, but the concerted efforts of Sauron in the War of the Ring (and the War of the Last Alliance) were insufficient for such a geographic scale. As such, when the Histories of Middle Earth were finally released, I really took to the story of the Blue Istari, as it then made logical sense to one of the few aspects of Middle Earth that had previously plagued me as illogical (or at least untold).
What-if video idea for you to cover:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien, etc?
My guess that they had a mix of the two suggestions Tolkien made. That in a lot of ways they were pre-eminent in the eastern struggles to free Sauron's servant peoples and drew a lot of pressure off the west but at the same time created magic cults and traditions that drew men further from Eru and the Valar.
So they failed (As we know since Gandalf was the only entirely successful Istari) but in less and different ways than Saruman and Radagast.
I like the latter explanation of them dying after whittling away at Saurons forces for centuries. I can picture two buffed older men with small beards armed with swords and staffs jumping out of the shadows cutting huge swaths of orcs goblins and trolls only to vanish for a year or two then appear to do it again
Thank you so very much for this. I was a young American bot immigrant to the UK in the very early 70s. The Hobbit was school reading at 9 and by 12 I read LotR. In my teen's Silmarillion was published, but I never finished it. The mention of the "Blue Wizards" in the "The Hobbit" movie jaunted my memory a bit and irritated me since as I did not recall much, but this summary really was fantastic at filling in that gap as being conspicuous in its absence to all.
Its always been my head canon that Radaghast and the blue wizards "Failed" first then somehow redeemed themselves. Saruman seemed the only one corrupted by hubris and greed so its fitting to me that the others would get a chance to do something good. I remember reading about how there were no dragons from the east to help Sauron and always attributed that to the blue wizards.
It's cool to think about samurai/chinese or other eastern themed style heroes aided by the blue wizards against similarly styled villains
I am not sure there were no dragons in the East. We know some of the Dwarf founding fathers went East. We also know four of the Dwarf rings were consumed or destroyed by dragons. We can accurately guess that Smaug got Thrain II's ring when he killed him. He also may have gotten a ring from a Dwarf King in Gundabad. Smaug could have done this because we know he was living nearby in mountains near Gundabad before he flew down to Erebor. That leaves two rings that dragons got. Since we no almost nothing about what happens in the far East, it makes sense that dragons were out there too and got the last two rings.
You had me at "chinese/samurai" in a Bidenic logickey way!🤣
Thinking about these two my mind often wanders to heroic deeds and sacrifice. Loved your take, inspiring! Well done.
I like to think that the two blue wizards died in some final stand, and whilst they may have been killed, they completed their mission with their final breath.
they would have ended back in valinor then
As Istari they would return until they completed the mission to get rid of Sauron, if so was the case.
Even Saruman got his chance.
awesome vid James enjoyed i reckon their going to be an important part in the amazon tv show and because their is so little written about them it give the writers a lot of leeway on what they can do with them
It made no sense to me that Sauron sat right in the midst of his strongest enemies and just retreated the moment they found him. Particularly when he had an entire kingdom with impenetrable walls that he could have built his strength in. Unless, he had to hide from the Blue Wizards until he was strong enough to face them. I like that narrative.
I love the idea of the Blue Wizards, personally I'd love to see an adaptation of what they were possibly doing during the events of Lord of the Rings, considering how little we know, there a huge sandbox for writing what could have possibly happened
Near the end of his life, Tolkien retconned his earlier statement on the blue wizards by later stating that they actually were able to organize resistances of men in Harad and Rhun who continued to resist Sauron and Melkor’s influences. He even went to say that their operations would be a factor towards victory in the west against Sauron. Interesting perspective to see; men from Harad and Rhun who worked to resist Sauron.
I've always thought that of all of the (mostly) unexplored areas of Tolkiens's works - The Blue Wizards have the most amazing potential for storyline expansion (I realise of course it would all be non Canon etc)
would love it if u guys could also make more videos on more lists of the most powerful. by the way loved the video!!! keep going!
I think maybe, like so many other unfinished and undeveloped stories and characters from Tolkien, he perhaps intended to write a separate story about the blue wizards but, unfortunately, like so manyof his creations were never finished. Perhaps like the unfinished sequel to LOTR, the new shadow, maybe these cults arose from the blue wizards. But when that fell by the wayside, their stories changed a bit to give at least some meaning to their existence overall. But their mystery is such a wonderful thing in itself as it spawns do many intriguing stories, theories and discussions such as this.
Interesting my grandmother was a huge fan. She read the Whole set to me out loud as a child. I heard she saved a written reply from the author to a letter she sent to him. It was signed and my family still has it. Loved all the books!
imagine referring to tolkien by "the author" LOL
Seems possible that since Arda was transformed into a sphere and the Blue Wizards went far into the east of Middle Earth they just continued east & arrived back into Valar by entering Valar from the west across some unknown sea.
It would be amazing to see a continuation with these 2 Ishtari being the main wizards now in the place of Gandalf and Saruman.
With History repeating itself, having one of them succumbing to a new evil and the other aiding in the defeat of this evil. It would be poetic if this were the case.
Tolkein was probably saving them for a later project, because he was focusing on LOTR and the Hobbit…the quality and effort really shines through. Fail or succeed, I would hope someone could bring their story to life.
They probably fell in some battle in the East, somewhere knee deep in enemy territory. Then their disciples or friends took the blue wizards teachings and perverted them, essentially making the dark arts of the East….I think.
Blue is seen by many as a healing colour. Perhaps they became the sources for wisdom in the arts of repairing the hearts, minds and environments that had been damaged?
I like the idea of them failing because it makes the accomplishment of Gandolf that much greater -- being the only Istari that succeeded and stayed true to his purpose
Didn’t you mean to spell Gandorf?
I've watched 20 or so videos about the blue wizards and it's always the same info :( I wish we knew more
There isn’t much written about them.
@@Mxyzptlksac i know. On one hand I wish there was and on the other I kind of like the mystery
It would be cool if there would be so many shows on different parts of Middle-Earth. Imagine a show on the missions of the Blue Wizards or Radagast’s contributions during the War of the Ring.
@@rolly1648 that would be cool.
That`s because there are no more info. There are only few lines of text covering the whole topic of blue Wizards that Tolkien have ever written even in the history of middle earth collection is counted and rest is pure speculation, intepretation and fan fiction.
It’s almost as if Tolkien wasn’t so much imagining these tales as he was a conduit to an actual history long forgotten
That has been my feeling all along :) Well said :)
I am fascinated by the work you put on your efforts. You seem to do such a deep analysis on everything. Brilliant work. Could you try and do something about the Entwives? Give us your own insight!
Thanks! Yeah we will get to that at some point :)
Here's an idea: "what if sauron actually did sway one or even both of the blue wizards? How much damage could two or three wizards under sauron's influence cause?
Each one would have caused about as much damage as a balrog as both balrogs and the Istari were Maiar.
In terms of temporal destruction, balrogs and dragons were considered on par although like the Maiar not all were equal in power.
I'd also note that it was a Vala, Melkor who swayed the balrogs to his cause so his lieutenant Sauron (also a Maiar) may have had much less success in turning them, and perhaps they would have still refused to unleash their full power as the Vala had forbidden them.
Personally I think they would have done similar to Durin's Bane or Smaug in eliminating a kindom's worth of land for men/elves/hobbits or been a somewhat more powerful Witch-King.
Indeed one could say that it was exactly what happened with Saruman, swayed or manipulated by Sauron but incompletely to the point where even if he wasn't made his home a house for orcs and through his agent severely crippled Rohan and was ready to do to it what Durin's Bane did to Moria, and finally when confronted by Gandalf didn't try to go Super Saiyan.
They traveled into the east, lived long lives, and later helped save an orphanage from being shut down. By then they'd taken on the aliases Jake and Elwood.
I would love to see a film version of the two Blue Wizards even without a clear Tolkien-created storyline. I would also love to see the great Bill Nighy and Charles Dance cast in those roles.
I remember from The Hobbit Unexpected Journey, Gandalf was telling Bilbo about the other wizards and he said that he forgot the blue wizards names. That is how I got to this video
Both wizards were selected by Orome. I'm pretty sure that after fulfullin their task they prefered to dwell in the east than to return to Valinor.
I would love to see this in the amazon series
The amazon series takes place during the second age, so before the Istari arrived in middle earth.
“Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion... and after his first fall to search out his hiding and to cause dissension and disarray among the dark East... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East... who both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have... outnumbered the West.”
I believe the Blue Wizards did come earlier than the other 3 wizards
My own fan fiction has my character, a human pipe weed trader from Bree, traveling to the furthest East and meeting the Blue Wizards. Imagine a Marco Polo character in Middle Earth who meets the two mysterious Istari. I am also looking for the missing Entwives as a favor for Tom Bombadil and Treebeard.
Perhaps the blue wizards know something about the missing entwives🤔
I'd GM that campaign. Somebody could play your friend the Ranger, maybe an Elf from Rivendell, couple Hobbits... it could work.
Badass ! I was JUST talking with my dad ( long time lotr fan, die hard ) about it last week, I plan to write my own fan fiction as well with my own character. I have yet to decide when it will take place and what I’ll be doing. But you gave me some ideas and courage to do it!
Admittedly, I have a personal involvement, being named after one but I always like the idea of them having done what they could to subvert and mitigate the power of Sauron in the east;
Then settling down into Bombadil-esque lifestyles.
Enjoying the splendour of middle earth...
Fucking with no-one, but suffering no-one to be be fucked with...
I think it might have been a mix of both. They were successful at first but succumbed to the enormity of the task.
I'd like to belive that they failed to return, but not as saruman, but like Radagast. Perhapps they fell in love with the east of middle earth and decided to dwell there, instead of returning to Valinor, which by now might have been a distant fading memory.
If I could pick up the storyline myself, I would focus on one of the blue wizards. I would give him a new quest from the gods. As magical and mythical creatures began to disappear from the land the gods knew that mankind would still need guidance as they would focus their attention on one another. So throughout the ages that one blue wizard would be there to help guide and influence certain kings. Eventually he would be known as, Merlin.
It’s unfortunate these two blue wizards only got references with small bits of information and not more complete stories. I’d definitely been interested in movies and books being done about these two and their adventures.
During the time of the Watchful Peace Sauron had, in fact, abandoned Dol Guldur and fled into the East for that period of time, having fled the fortress when Gandalf investigated it in T.A. 2063.
I believe they failed to prevent the Easterlings and Southorns from joining Sauron, but they prevented other major kingdoms from the east/south to join Sauron and possibly helped restore those lands during the fourth age.
It appears that the blue wizards did in deed succeed in their tasks. They minimised the strength of forces coming out of the east to aid in the attacks in the west. They also may have also been responsible for Sauron secretly returning to Dol Guldur to hide and regain his strength as the two blue wizards appear to have been relentlessly searching for him in the east, while in the west their was a belief that Sauron was no threat at all as he had be vanquished and his ring was most likely lost forever.
I agree with you. This two wizards, through seldom mentions and hardly remembered by the rest of the story play the biggest yet unseen part that brought victory to the North West. I'd do anything to read even a fanfic about this two maiar. Or maybe if chance have it, Ill be writing it myself and post in on wattpad. Who knows..
Great video guys!
New favorite Tolkien channel
You mention toward the end that the blue wizards remained unknown, but that’s just because the perspective of the readers of Tolkien’s work was on the west, not the east where they were active. It’s entirely plausible that those in the east had never heard of Gandalf or Radagast since they stayed in the west, though they might remember Saruman (or whatever name he went by there) as he journeyed to the east as well.
Whoa! Just when you thought you new the tale. This comes along reaching deeper than you new.
Already liked cause I know this is gonna be good
WHO ARE THE BLUE WIZARDS?
Narrator: That's a very interesting question. Not much is known about them... yep.
END
-.-
I wanna see them in the series!
Would be a sweet spin if amazon included the blue wizards in the series
I loved playing Fallen Alatar in the Iron Crown Enterprises Middleaerth Trading Card Game. So much fun, hunting down my enemies monsters while raising armies!
In my head canon, the blue wizards aided humans and succeeded in their mission, but at the cost of their health. First they got tortured and their tongue was cut out for inciting a failed revolution, so they had to teach some trusted humans spells, that need to be vocalized. Then they succeeded, but were too weakened to attempt the journey back to the west.
There are so many possibilities for the blue wizards. I like to think that they rallied tribes in the east against Saurons influence. Perhaps one or both of them died as martyrs and this spawned a cult-like following. Another thing that I think is interesting is the Haradrims fascination with snakes/serpents. Maybe this symbology came from one of the blue wizards?
This is what the Amazon series should've focused on. There's so much potential with these stories depicting the eastern and southern lands of Middle Earth
I always saw one of the blue wizard as Merlin
Because of their blue robes they were too easily detected by the forces of Sauron so they where silently recalled by the Valar. It was an embarrasing tactical mistake nobody likes to talk about.
The 2 Blue Wizards went to the US and formed the legendary BLUES BROTHERS band.
When I think of the Blue Wizards, do not think of their success or failure, but of what possible place they had in the 4th age & the New Shadow.
I think that if Tolkien had the time, he would have revisited that idea & developed the concept further, & that the Blue wizards would have had a place of prominence in that story.
But, we’ll never know, really.
The setting of LOTR is the West, with the understanding that the world is much bigger than the map.
Gaaaagh! I wish we knew more about the Blue Wizards. I hope we get a little about them in the Amazon series, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
Great video, guys!
They died as they lived: fighting the GOOD FIGHT
At 11:30 a picture is revealed, showing that one of the blue wizards is actually Sir Anthony Hopkins... or was it Odin, having arrived in Middle Earth?
Tom Bombadil in fellowship. Oldest. His coat is blue, his boots are yellow.
The ring has no effect on him
Hes the blue wizard ? Rather than complete his task he dances around like a hippy and sings songs.
Since Middle-Earth is supposed to be English mythology, imagine if one of the blue wizards eventually becomes Merlin and completes his task by helping King Arthur. I know King Arthur is a mixture of English and mostly French, but I always thought the idea funny.
I wonder if Tolkien was thinking about making ARWEN the lady in the lake in the king Arthur myth... just a possibility...
@@nathanmonger8423 Interesting . . .
French? I thought he was either british or roman
@@worldtraveler8613 I think he’s referring to Le Morte D’arthur, a retelling of the Arthur legend which has elements of English, French and Welsh folklore.
Do you think Excalibur might actually be Anduril, forged from the shards of Narsil?
😁
I find it so interesting that there are two seemingly VERY important characters in the world of Middle Earth that we just know almost nothing about. It makes the Lord of the Rings feel like a documentation of a long forgotten time with only bits and pieces of the end of that era that were actually recorded. It makes the world feel more believable and alive since these characters are basically just lost knowledge since they weren't directly involved with the war and the victors who were written about.
It would be cool to have a totally separate epic tale about the adventures of the blue wizards in the east.
I have always liked the idea that the blue wizards were 'disposed' of by Saruman. I think it is interesting how the three of them travel to the East, but only Saruman returns. We also do not know what exactly befalls Radagast, but we know that his control over the birds does not seem to return to Radagast - so possibly he suffered the same fate as the two Blue wizards. My thinking for this is because Saruman speaks about having the rods of the five wizards to Gandalf in the return of the king. By this idea, the two Blue wizards failed at their task like Saruman, but in a different way.
If Saruman offed the Blue Wizards during their initial travel east, that would infer Saruman was already evil at the very beginning of his mission as head of the Istari. He may have had a stronger predisposition to corruption than the other Wizards, hence his actions during the War of the Ring, but no indications in the source material that he displayed outward signs of malevolence that far back, or that his thoughts strayed from the mission the Valar charged the Istari to fulfill. The Valar would have known of such inclinations before accepting him. I think we can safely rule out that possibility.
If later in history Saruman wanted to do away with the Blue Wizards what would be the motive? They were far away to the East doing easterly things with easterly people. Probably thousands of miles away. I'd think they posed less of a threat than poor Radagast, who was actually harmless except perhaps to himself. Gandalf was the main thorn in Saruman's side, and of course the Fellowship which was intent on destroying the Ring. It would have been a major undertaking to dispatch a force to deal with these Wizards, and that assumes he knew of their whereabouts. Neither seems likely.
@@jamesaron1967 Thanks for your reply :-) It is nice to talk about it!
I feel like I read that twice Saruman went into the East, and on the final venture he returned alone. Perhaps I am getting confused. It was this second time which I thought seemed suspicious. If anyone was to know the whereabouts of the Blue wizards, surely Saruman would have had the best idea. Particularly before he made his residence in Orthanc, he was based primarily out of Gondor I believe (close to the East).
I had thought his motive would be either to eliminate any potential threat to him, (particularly if they sided against Saruman and with Gandalf), and that he was quite the collector of rare items. I feel it would add to his egotistical persona of himself as being 'the best' by adding their staffs to his collection. He does make a comment to having the five wizard rods, but perhaps that is just Saruman at attempting to sound like the free peoples still need his help.
@@Commodus358 His only chance was to jail them. An Istari returns after being killed. He didn't, he liked being the leader too well, and they did complete their missions.
But he could have tricked them into staying there, just to weakening Sauron so Saruman (himself) could take the ring, only being bothered by Gandalf.
5:45 - "founders of secret cults that outlasted Saurons
JRRT sequel to the LOTR 'The New Shadow" was going to potentially about that. In which the two wizards would have played big parts
I can imagine a sacrificial moment of the two. Or maybe even a schism at some point where they separate over two different mindsets or beliefs on how to approach the war and their goals. What if one of them fell to temptation but the other did not, pitting the two against each other?
The Blue Wizards succeeded in the Second Age, leaving in the beginning of the Third Age to return to The West. It is decreed by Eru through Manwe and the remaining Valar that the Blue Wizards will make their own choice whether to or not return to Middle Earth with the others intending to be sent. While Alatar originally wanted to, going with Saruman, he then convinced Pallando to join him, continuing their tasks, upon which, he agreed. Because of this it was determined that Radagast would go, serving Yavanna. Lastly, because he knew fear of Sauron went Gandalf. When Sauron fell, the Blue Wizards whom were in the FAR East had far to travel coming home, the distance of the east being greater than that of the the west may have returned Un-heralded as all had left before. With the "Magic" that existed in Middle Earth failing, any means they may have previously had of expedited travel was gone. They joined their brother Olorin in the West, returning to the Valar as they previously had unlooked for but ever welcomed...
I love this idea.
In my opinion on the blue wizards, I would see Ithryn potentially "Failing" his task beset to him in getting lost in the hunt of darkness. Probably to eventually succumb to a fight that either outlasted him or overwhelmed him in his callous pursuit of annihilating evil, in which case he must have become blinded by his righteous path and therefore took on more than he could handle.
As for Luin, I can see him succeeding and not failing or being blinded from his task as the 'East-Helper'. For Luin, I can see him eventually living out his days in peace after hard work of uniting those of the East against the forces of Evil.
I can also see a potential 'conflict' of sorts between the two blue wizards in which Luin tried to steer Ithryn back to his true task instead of delving deep into the grand hunt of darkness. At which point I would say they would have parted ways and took on their own tasks individually.
Basically, my opinion is somewhat a mirroring of what happened between Gandalf and Saruman, in which Saruman fell to temptations of power, and Gandalf had success in his undertakings along his path.
I’d like to think that they were good and played behind the scenes roles on purpose and continued to do that for many many years. That either the cults were a coverup, plot to spy or just from others viewing their dealings. It would be nice to think of them as a more mysterious and that ultimately only one of the 5 turned evil.
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@7:30 inspiration for the infamous Wabbajack of the Elder Scrolls Series??
They are just tavern hoping around middle earth enjoying themselves after a hard job well done 🍻
Thank you for keeping so vigorously to Canon. I have less than zero interest in the the various movies etc.
I find it entirely appropriate to take Tolkien’s words later in life and speculate that the Blue Wizards were not failures but “fell fighting the good fight”.
Thank you. I like that.
I think they "fell fighting the good fight" as you put so succinctly
Nice work dude thanks
It's also possible Saruman corrupted them, or even betrayed them in the east, which would explain why Saruman came back west by himself.. Maybe THAT would be an awesome last movie, how the blue wizards erode the east and in so doing play a massive part in the reducing their role in Saurons army
These clips keep me going
Kind of funny to think that the "two blue" COULD show up in the Amazon series, if you follow the narrative that they arrived around the time of the forging of thin One Ring...
Please make a video about Saruman's ring. I always wondered if he put part of his power in it and used it to control his army which is why he lost the power he had before.
Sticking with the light motif in Tolkien's lore the Wizards to my mind are like the different wavelengths of light, the Blue Wizards are more like blue and Ultra-Ultraviolet. Their actions are unseen because they're off in far away lands and perhaps one of them is often in unseen realms, the spirit world. I think their mission may not have been on the same "spectrum" as the other wizards either, for them it didn't end when Sauron did. With the Elves leaving there's less capable people able to deal with certain lingering localized threats both seen and unseen. Can't just kill him and leave, Middle-Earth needs some after care. Both Sauron and Melkor did a lot of physical damage to the world but we can't forget that both were spiritual beings, angels, so there's a whole other side to everything they did. There's a whole other world within Middle-Earth, that's where Sauron dominated the Nine. Just like Mair get attached to their physical form, Sauron weaponized the opposite of that and slowly got them detached from their physical forms. The rings were like quicksand, slowly sucking them in. An immortal gets attached to their form with prolonged use or indulgence, maybe a mortal gets detached from prolonged absence, not realizing they're slowly fading or wasting away.
It isn't canon, but I like to imagine that The Blue Wizards had a special task assigned by Iluvitar and The Valar : specifically to open a sort of window through which Iluvitar could project influence into Middle-Earth, tripping Gollum at The Crack of Doom, so that he fell in and destroyed The Ring.
Illuvatar like some cackling middle schooler , haha bruh have a nice trip (gollum falls)