How to Check the Correct Engine Timing on a V6 Busso Turbo, Alfa Romeo 164.
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- Опубліковано 17 чер 2022
- Hello guys! Ready to change a timing belt on this Alfa Romeo 164 V6 Turbo!? Is it as bad as they say!? Will it be that difficult? And if it is, there are ways to check if it's good, right? Well, in fact, like all belts, chains alike, you can always check if the system was properly assembled and this one is no exception! By the way, that's exactly what I did before disassembling, I found that it was in fact poorly assembled! Its correct placement has a hint or two, yes, but nothing out of the ordinary! By the way, it's pretty close to the top of preferred engines for me to change the timing kit!
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All Alfa Romeo 166 V6 Turbo videos:
• This Alfa Romeo 166 V6... | • Busso V6 Turbo ep.2 Th... | • Ep.3 This Busso Turbo ... | • I'm removing the Alfa ... | • Taking the V6 Busso ap... | • When it's time to say ...
Alfa Romeo 164 V6 turbo presentation:
• V6 Busso engine misfir...
How to replace timing belt on a Fiat Alfa Romeo and Lancia 1.7D, 1.7TD or 1.9\2.0TD engines:
• Alfa Romeo 155 1.9td t...
Testing the compression on my Alfa Romeo 75's donor Bialbero engine:
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Timing belts\chains How to:
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#AlfaRomeo #alfa164 #AlfaRomeoNoProblem - Авто та транспорт
Excellent video! From what i see is a lot easier to change the cambelt on the Busso turbo. I did change myself the cambelt on my 166 V6 24V and is a bit more complicated, to tension properly the belt you have to loosen the camshafts sprockets. And of course, the Turbo has only 2 cams, not 4. Geep up the good work!
Hello. Thank you very much for watching the video.
Yes the 24v is a different beast! With the cam locks and all that, having adjustment on the sprockets helps out plenty!
There are so few in Portugal, I believe I will never will drive one of those, even less doing the belt. I like a challenge!
alfa romeo 164.3.0v6 12v about from one thing to another, so thanks for the tip that the strangeness of the clutch can be caused by the old hose that goes to the master cylinder... I have everything new and now that I replaced the new hose, the clutch became completely normal... now it's good...
Hello. Thanks for watching. Yes, that's what I did, replaced the hose. It is on another video of this mini series.
ua-cam.com/play/PLgcTCigdgD8M0B0vlf-r6bITYRWvuyG0m.html
I have been instructed to measure the clearances of the exhaust valve between the end of the valve stem and the rocker and 0.22mm and that way they will not remain pronounced
Hello. I do find that way a bit more difficult, I usually do it like this and it works for me.
Your videos are very informative and help to understand what has to be done by the Alfa mechanics. CHAPEAU! Sadly enough they now have no idea how to properly work on the Busso V6. A few days ago they were to replace the waterpump and cambelt and correct the valve spaces. The first thing they did not get right was a loose bolt for one passive beltwheel which caused a strong knocking noise from the engine. After this was fixed the engine runs very quiet when cold started - almost like new after 380000km. On the Autobahn at 130-160km/h the oilpressure that is normally 5bar at medium rpm is now 4bar. The engine temperature is normally 83-85 degrees C, as the thermostat is supposed to open at 82 degrees, but now it stays at 93 degrees - about 10 degrees warmer than usual. The engine power is somewhat less than normal and worst of all makes loud mechanical noise. As this problem is related to the temperatue of the engine I suspect too low valve spaces. Does anyone have another good idea?
I'm sorry, can you explain in another way?
Great and informative video Bruno...again. ;-)
Thank you very much for watching
pretty cool, but when you think about that tensioner in more detail, when the belt gets loose, those marks show that it would be tighter than it should be..
That's just the way it is. Also happens on more engines. That's why it should be adjusted on tdc. Very common too on twin spark engines
by the way, what I heard about those mechanical tightenings is exactly what I suspected..that is, when the machine is rotated in the wrong direction, the valves can hit the pistons and the distribution can go wrong...
I really like yor videos, your work on the Alfas is great ! You know I recently had not exactly the same but a similar issue in my '97 24 valve 164. Before cambelt replacement the engine was soooo smooth and powerful; however after replacing the belt things got worse, instead of better .... when cold the engine started ok but after a couple of minutes when it started to warm a little it also started to run like if it was on 5 cylinders .... to make the story short: after almost ... three months ! .... with the car sitting at the mechanic's they finally solved the problem. According to them there was dirt in the lifters, they had to reopen the top, remove all the 24 lifters and do a full cleaning on them, after what the engine is now running as it should. They said it had happened before to other 24 valve they were working on, so I wonder why they didn't do that cleaning along with the belt replacement, among other stuff .... keep up the great work !
Hello. Thank you very much for watching! That story doesn't add up to me.. dirt ou carbon deposits are common inside engines and it can kill a lifter and the cams. To cause a misfire or similar or had to have a stuck lifter, witch is strange. But, always learning.
Wow!! Your video quality, english fluency are improving so much! Really loved this one.
Hello. Thank you very much! I really appreciate it! Next week may not appear that good in my voice, things are getting really hard on the personal life. Hope you and all that watch can understand
@@alfaromeonoproblem Oh my god, I’m so sorry for you Bruno! You can fix everything I hope you will fix even this problem❤️.
If you need to let out here on youtube or take a break from your schedule your community is here! I’m sure we all will understand.
Some of you guys already know something. It's close family related and there is no end in site. Almost a year fighting this but no luck.
@@alfaromeonoproblem i think i got it… And if so I really know what it means… sometimes destiny seems so cruel and we cannot do anything. Sometimes god’s plans are so unintelligible.
Just don’t give up, you’ll make it and you’ll be happy again sooner or later. I hope the best for you and your family ❤️
Great video as always, thank you. Got a few comments on the Busso if you don’t mind ;) It’s a shame that version doesn’t have the multi-part camwheels as they have a reliable and easy to read timing mark on them. By simply printing out a timing template, you can check timing without having to remove anything from the top of the engine, although of course it’s always good to check valve clearances.
For TDC, I’ve always found the mark on the flywheel to be absolutely perfect/accurate and really easy to read without any parallax error (unlike the mark on the crank damper!) but confess I usually used a DTI anyway.
I used to set the exhaust clearances at the valve, rather than the cam. Multiply the specification by the rocker ratio and use that figure. I found it was easier to make adjustments more accurately that way. Maybe just me, but it worked better for me, especially with that fiddly little adjuster!
Removing the cams is easy on that engine as you leave the pulleys in the heads, which means you can leave the belt alone and you don’t lose the timing. The pulleys just need to be ‘eased’ outwards a wee bit for clearance. Do have to remove the distributor of course, but that’s simple. Pulleys are keyed to the cams by the way, unlike the 24v engines.
I had a 12v 3.0 with a bad timing mark on the rear head. I bought the 164 and drove it home, but it felt ‘off’ at times. I took the timing covers off and the pulleys were covered in paint ‘timing’ marks! It had clearly caused problems in the past. At that time, I didn’t know about the external marks so just checked it as you have here and carried on….but it never really seemed quite as it should. Ran it for a few years before using the engine in a Stratos replica. I rebuilt the engine and put a pair of C&B cams in it, along with S pistons….and yet again, it felt slightly ‘off’. Eventually, I decided to go back to basics and set timing by measuring valve lift. That was how I discovered that the mark on the cam bearing cap was one tooth out. Much later, I came across the information about the external timing template and confirmed that yes indeed, that cap had been wrong from the factory. I often wondered if the factory timed the engines using the external marks or the internal ones, or perhaps some sort of fixture?
I thought those compression numbers where a bit low, but then remembered it’s the turbo and they do run a low CR compared to modern turbo cars, and they were nicely balanced too, so probably all good.
That rear bank cam has a habit of jumping a bit when the belt is off due to the pressure from open valves at TDC so it’s very easy to get it a tooth out if you aren’t paying attention and don’t check properly as you demonstrated so it’s easy to see why it was wrong as it was.
Anyway, please forgive me if I’m trying to teach granny to suck eggs, but you did say you’ve only done 2 Bussos :)
Keen to see how it runs now you’ve sorted the timing.
…just remembered another little detail I learned on those once I ‘discovered’ the timing template. A stock engine is rarely properly in time! The template even came showing a small error that the originator had on his engine (I think it was 3 degrees out on both cams). On my rebuilt engine, I had some modified camwheels that allowed a small amount of adjustment meaning it was possible to get the timing absolutely spot-on. Later, on yet another engine I built for that car (a supercharged one with forged pistons and custom ground cams) we experimented with cam timing at the rolling road tuning session. All credit to Richard Jemison (RJR) for the cam design as it made best power & torque with the cams at exact ‘zero’.
Anyone doing tuning on that engine and skimming heads needs to use that ‘vernier’ modification to the camwheels or timing will be out by quite a bit.
Hello. Thank you very much for all your support and input.
In fact I'm learning as I go on this one, but I do respect it because being a old engine many people do not. They do not understand that old technology can teach you sometimes more even! And I do receive that with the maximum humbleness possible. The same on the 75 and my 33 with ITBs, no one could fix or provide info, so I did learn myself I did it!
As I am doing more timing videos I will get to the adjusting cam sprockets. But I have to go bit by bit so my less knowledgeable audience understands and grow.
I accept your info, I do know know all, in fact, I do not have a degree on cars or nothing. I truly am self thought and that brought me more and more access to new info.
I learned more in the dealership and I too brought more info to the dealerships that I learned on my daily routine.
I always will take any info you or any one will give, if it's good for me, it's great to help out Alfa Romeo's name.
BTW, I love adjustable cam sprockets. Much easier to do timing (mjet timing coming)
@@alfaromeonoproblem I don’t have any formal training or qualification in automotive engineering, I’m just an amateur spanner twiddler, but I did start learning when I was fairly young, did my first headgasket at age 12 (50 years ago) and always favoured FIAT and Alfa. The guy that taught me the basics was very much into his Alfas so I blame him :) Where I grew up it was usually Ford or Vauxhall back then. Anything Italian was considered very exotic (and weird).
My career was in TV broadcast engineering and back when I started, that often meant working with complex electromechanical systems….not unlike cars really ;) I guess I am cursed with an ‘engineer brain’.
Anyway, I’ll be happy if even one of the things I pass along is new or useful to you.
Respect.
it probably won't hurt even if you put that tensioner tighter than what the signs show.. even 5mm.. and that changes when you turn it.. and the oil tensioner is really tight...
well, that ykk crankshaft sensor could be the reason... the temperature sensor has been renewed, yes, it was bought from that autodoc
Autodoc as a lot of counterfeit parts, beware
I meant the Motronic box exactly...the one when I take out the coolant level sensor, it doesn't turn off the engine either..it doesn't start, but it doesn't turn off the engine..and probably the air mass meter does the same..?
I have a 164.3.0v6 12v and there is no very hot air either, so when the car is stationary, when the electric fan comes on, the fan doesn't turn off until the heater fan is turned on, so it cools down better.. is this normal? when everything is so-called new..except the electric fan, but it still spins and it's not 2-speed, it's 1-speed
is the ultrasonic washer cleaner good fo motronic injectors? and what is best detergent and temparature?
Hello. I cannot tell. I always send them to the specialist to do the job and have warranty
I would ask 164 with air conditioning, so now I got the heating device to blow hot air..
I moved the lever from the engine compartment where the cable seemed to go..
so I would have asked if the heat exchanger is transferred via a cable? or has someone made a manual switch inside somewhere? with the electric controls though..
Hello. I'm not full on this knowledge. I believe it's all electronic and electrical. Send me some pics via email
would it be possible that the other cam had jumped over with a tooth? I myself noticed that when that mechanical tensioner is put on, when you turn the engine counter-clockwise, it loosens quite a lot; (i.e. can the valves even be attached to the piston?
The tensioner being new I don't believe that's it. They did this cam belt using some band made marks...
what about the 164.3.0.V6, there is no catalyst in the model, so in the motronic, when the gasoline octane number is there, there is a relay-like control knob in the short wire, so if it is used with 98 octane, will that knob be removed?
Hello. I'm not familiar with the system you are describing. Sorry
what gear oil is the 164.3.0v6.12v perfect in even in the cold? is the mineral 80w-90 ok?
For Portugal the 80w90 is perfect for this GearBox. In colder subzero places a 75w90 may be better.
what kind of oil should be in that v6.12v naturally aspirated 164 alpha machine? if you drive in freezing weather?
That is a hard question, here we have very good temperatures. We use 10w60, selenia racing was the recommended for us.
I guess you can use it too. No point using a 10w40 and a 5w40 will be too thin for those engines I guess
from one thing to another, doesn't the intake cam in the twin spark move forward as the revs rise?
The variator will advance in low rpm and retard in hi rpm
is it true that if the marks don't click completely together, then it is better that the cam axles are ahead of the crankshaft? ahead of time? or camshafts behind?
Hello. Advanced or retardaded you mean? Think about the piston going up, if the valve open before time, retarded, it will colide. If it is advanced will open later, so will not colide. Hope it helps
which one 164.3.0v6 12v year model 1989.is it original?
and does it close the nmotronic box? i.e. does the Motronic box command the fuel pump and turn off the ignition?
The motronic commands it all. Relays too
hello, where did you found tdc dial gauge and spark tool please ?
Hello. It was a local tool store here in Portugal. Any store that sells tools for workshops will have this, no problem
I'm asking you, is the tension of that ok if that pointer shows approx. 5mm lower than those notches? the same when running when cold ..or should the weather be completely on top?
Hello. Engine at tdc the notches should be pointing at eachother.
Then it may move depending on the temp and rpm of the engine. You should not modify that
so did you mean that the 5mm throw should be fully inserted into its notches?@@alfaromeonoproblem
is it worth changing the signs completely to the right place or does that throw not hurt?@@alfaromeonoproblem
that engine temperature sensor might not affect the ignition/fuel pump operation?
Completely affects, make sure all the connectors and pins are corrosion free.
is it copper radiator better than aluminum? is there a big cooling difference?
Hello. Here in Portugal I cannot pick one. I just buy what exists. But aluminium seems to be better.
what if the 164 has been standing for a long time, even more than 10 years, does the brake fluid block the pipes? and does the abs pump have to be replaced? or is it enough to replace the master cylinder and brake calipers?
Hello. I did rescued a 33 stored for 23 years, just had to replace the fluid, the flexible hoses and in this case the rear brake regulator.
It depends on what you have, do not replace things just because...
Check out my playlist for brakes down on the description
that spring is so loose that when you turn the machine counterclockwise, that tensioner gives way and the belt loosens... but of course that initial tension remains in the tensioner.. but it's really dangerous how it allows the belt to loosen when you turn the machine counterclockwise.
oh yes, I'll give you a warning: I bought the 164 clutch package and it was Luk, which came with a plate that was false and the layout was Luk and the pressure bearing, as I remember, was INA and what happened when I drove only 25 km...the pressure bearing came off its frame and twisted, i.e. it broke. .I remember that the INA was a pressure bearing..why didn't it last? Was it because the LUK arrangement was too stiff or a weak pressure bearing INA..the set was supposed to be perfectly fine...at least the pressure bearing was too weak..I had to renew that too...now I have a false set ....it's still not like it was in the experiment
The Luk sets for non Luk applications are complete garbage. You cannot put Luk where Valeo is used or vice versa
is 10w-60 synthetic suitable for engine oil fos 164.3.0.v6 12v engine? when tempature is -35 - 39
-37 +37
@juharuotsalainen6938 if you have also very hi temps in summer, you can try 5w50
some say that mineral oil should be used in that engine, but I think that if you drive in freezing temperatures, synthetic is better@@alfaromeonoproblem
@juharuotsalainen6938 you bet. It really depends on the climate and temperatures
Hi Bruno 😊 will 164 2.0 gearbox fit and work in 164 3.0 ? In my 3.0 differential tooth snaped and destroyed my gearbox and i have spare 2.0
Hello. It will fit, but the gear ratio may be wrong
@@alfaromeonoproblem wow, if gear ratios will be slightly different it wont be an issue for me, i believe that 1st will be longer and fifth shorter, with different ratios car will be drivable anyway right ?
@nikolasruzickaV6busso yes, but maybe very short gears.
@@alfaromeonoproblem forgot to mention that its 2.0 ts not 2.0 tb v6
@nikolasruzickaV6busso then the ratio can be even shorter
in my opinion, the alfa 75.1.6 dellortto dhla 40 ni is slow rotating, lazily taking laps....it somehow occurred to me that the dellorrttos are not the best companions? how can that be changed?
Hello. For that o believe you are talking about carburetors? I do not have experience on those, there is a channel that may be just the right thing for you. My friend Jethro:
youtube.com/@JethroBronner
very good video..T:IISALMEN JUHA
Thank you very much for watching the video. Hope you like the playlist too:
ua-cam.com/play/PLgcTCigdgD8M0B0vlf-r6bITYRWvuyG0m.html
I tested the 164.3.0v6.12v project... it started cold and got warm, but then it shut down again and won't start running? by the way, you were right that the heat sensor could be the cause... I wonder if the box is faulty then?
By box you mean the control unit? The ECU? Maybe if you have corrosion on the pins, check on the passenger floor if it is left hand drive.
Also the air meter if it is at fault or of it has a false air intake it will do that
@@alfaromeonoproblem I meant the Motronic box exactly...the one when I take out the coolant level sensor, it doesn't turn off the engine either..it doesn't start, but it doesn't turn off the engine..and probably the air mass meter does the same..?
Can you send me short videos with the symptoms via e mail? It's dow on the description
@@alfaromeonoproblem my 164 now doesn't turn off in the middle of rotation.. I changed the relays, the motronic box and the ykk position sensor and the temperature sensor...
Can you explain in a different way? I cannot understand, sorry
and the thermostat is also new and it's 83 degrees, if the car's own meter shows too much, then what does it do? when the sensor and meter have been renewed
Make sure the connector at the sensor is good and the pins do good contact. But that issue normally is bad electronic components on the cluster.
@@alfaromeonoproblem ok, what's the normal temperature for those? if you measure with infrared? of course, the measurement is slightly distorted from the outside..
Yes, at the cluster will be just about the same as on the thermometer outside.
which is 164.3.0v6 12v. year 1989. normal engine temperature? I have checked the meter, the sensor, and according to the meter, the temperature is 110 degrees Celsius, but when I measure outside with an infrared meter, it would be 95-97 degrees Celsius...
Hello. Gauges with time and years start to read bad because of old electric components. The normal temperature is around 95, yes.
@@alfaromeonoproblem where can you get such a dial gauge that is long enough to measure the top dead center of the 164.3.0v6 piston and how much does it cost?
Hello. The good ones you can buy on store that sales workshop tools. You can also buy online. Both the extender and the dial
my alfa romeo 164.3.0v6 12v shut off and won't start...it won't start and the fuel pump won't turn...what could be wrong?
hello. you can have a bad rpm sensor and or a bad water temp. sensor
I've come across a 12-year-old 164 Alfa Romeo where the markings don't line up exactly with the lines in any way... the spacing of the cams doesn't match completely.. I heard it's a factory defect.. the difference is less than a tooth, so... approx. 1-2mm line from the marking
what else could it be? where are the relays?
or is it part synthetic 75w-90 better?
Depends of the freezing temperatures you may have
otherwise, why does the 164 have such a different groove like a cut in one neck of the crankshaft?
In the middle support bearing? It's because of oil film resistance
@@alfaromeonoproblem not if I remember 1 syl in the connecting rod bearing in the crankshaft.. such a notch groove..
Only worked on these two v6 engines so far. Can you send me a picture?
I was 3/4 of the way through the vid when I finally realised that this V6 is NOT the quad cam 156 motor. Apparently there is a massive difference between the two. LOL
Hello. Yes, this is the earliest 12v engine. I will have one more next month and one 24v next year on the channel
@@alfaromeonoproblem For Alfa owners this is THE mechanical channel. I know a lot about the 156 & 147 but you've taught me things I never even knew existed! Great channel. Thank you.
@doraexplora9046 thank you very much for your support! I hope you can share this with your friends! I have big plans for the channel
well, it ran ok at first, but after a while when it was hot, it just shut off....the fuel pump didn't turn and the guardrail didn't spark either..we'll see if I can start it, but I won't do it anyway..s
Maybe the injection relay when hot shuts off
@@alfaromeonoproblem where is it ?
Cannot recall
while with the original oil tensioner it didn't give much of anything
where 164 is air cooler filter element?
Hello. Near the windscreen on the passenger side. You have a slot with the filter inside. Very easy access
thanks!
@@alfaromeonoproblem
it is car in side or outside motor side?
@@alfaromeonoproblem
well, when we're talking about throwing a tooth under, it obviously doesn't matter?
so it's not true then...when I heard it's better for the visit if you show up a little early than late
oil career obviously but why?