Actually, it was his love for Luke that brought him back to the light. In Episode III, fear and hate overpowered Anakin's love but in Episode VI it was love that overpowered Anakin's fear and hate.
I think his romantic love for Padme was a selfish and possessive love, and his paternal love for Luke was selfless. He was willing to kill for Padme. He was willing to die for Luke.
I can totally see how Anakin "became" Vader as a coping mechanism. He convinced himself that the person he was is "dead". That makes it easier to cope with who he had become and the things he has to do. Much the same way that multiple personality disorder is the same thing. They are the same man, but they are very different.
I could see this as a possibility, but I don't think it reaches the level of a multiple personality disorder. I think it is closer to a nome de gurre, where one takes on a new identity to be able to later disavow the atrocities they witness and/or commit in war. Rather than a mental disorder, it is a purposeful and conscious decision, which one can chose to reverse. (which is what I believe we saw)
@@docmike8601 Maybe, but consider the amount of self loathing Vader must have had for Anakin. Anakin couldn't save Shmi, he was too weak. Couldn't save Padme, couldn't beat Obi-Wan. He must have hated who he was, and if his former life as Anakin became a symbol of weakness to him, imagine how far in his own mind me might go to purge who he once was.
@@mikeborsum2953 like I said, I consider it a possibility, but personally don't think it reached that level. Definitely something worth considering and I recognize it as a meritorious argument.
@@mikeborsum2953 Anakin would never hurt Obiwan, his friend, his mentor, his father-figure, his brother. Anakin is in fact the one who constantly saves Obiwan's life. It was 'Vader' that lost to Obiwan. And it was not this failure that hurt him the most, rather his complete failure to overcome Palpatine when he was still the 'weak' Anakin. Anakin was used and abused by his false 'friend' Palpatine, who seduced him much like a paedophile grooms a vulnerable child. His self-loathing comes from his shame and guilt of succumbing to Palpatine's manipulation. In the Revenge of the Sith novelisation it's explained how Vader's plan was to succeed where Anakin had failed, and to find a way of defeating Palpatine once and for all: "...He (Vader) could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his "Master" already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis's discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden . . .transformation. A fatal transformation. Everything was proceeding according to plan..."
@@ajzeg01 the Jedi were wrong. as we see in the OT, the PT & in TCW, they lived to suppress their darker feelings. if there's a thing the Order fears, it's the Dark side itself, imho.
I hated that scene. I just don’t think it’s in character for Anakin/Vader to want to hurt Ahsoka. Anakin had reasons to fight Obi-Wan. Anakin attacked Padmé in a fit of anger, possessiveness and paranoia, and then despaired over Padmé’s death. I just don’t believe Anakin would reach out to his son while disregarding Ahsoka.
I don't think Obi-Wan convinced himself that Vader was a different person by any stretch of the imagination. He told Luke a lot of... alternative truths to avoid him asking too many questions about the clone wars. When Luke asks about it specifically, he dodges the question. This was all to avoid revealing the failures of the Jedi, especially Anakin, and lead Luke to become a Jedi. In Legends, he writes the whole truth in a journal for Luke to find once he's ready to accept it, in which we see he had Obi-Wan had already come to terms with what really happened
@@darthtroller yeah that because the original plan Obi Wan killed Anakin so he was still gearing up to lie to luke. The original line was supposed to be "No, Obi-Wan killed your father."
Let's be honest, Anakin was a garbage human being. He only cared about himself and those that cared about him. The second Padme seemed she was aligned with Obi wan, he choked her out. That's why he killed children, because he though it would keep Padme loving him.
I think the essence of "good vs evil" in Star Wars is identity. The good guys have faces, have names, have personality, and the bad guys doesn't. That's why most of them hide themselves in masks, tatoos, hoods and uniforms. The Dark Side takes the identity from the self and from the society. In Return of the Jedi, anyone say's the Emperor's name, even himself. His name as person, even his name as a Sith doesn't matter, only his position. And Vader is something like that. Vader is Anakin in flesh, but all that defines him was forgotten. The Sith believes they are imposing their own will, but this is the biggest lie that trap them. Vader is a figure, a symbol of power, confiance, strenght, violence. Vader is the confortable and painful lie Anakin chose to hide himself and exposes to the galaxy. Anakin taking back his own identity is getting himself free from that lie, and by consequence, freeing the world from the same lie who destroy and corrupt everything it touchs.
@Optimus Prime and the Sith always go by their Sith name and rarly their true name. except for Count Dooku, his Sith name is Darth Tyranus, but EVERYONE except for Sidious called him by his real name as Count Dooku, only his master called him Darth in secret but in public he was known by his real name. But to the general public he was merely the rogue Jedi leader of the Separatist Movement seeking independence from the corrupt Republic. He was evil in battle and to the Jedi, but when in diplomatic or public situations, he seemed a noble political figure. But that was due to the lying and false nature he and Sidious pulled during the Clone Wars, Palpy was the public face of the Republic, and Dooku was the public face of the Separatists, though many CIS commanders new about Sidious, but not that he was Palpatine.
Generation Tech, I believe, did a video some months back exploring what the politics of Star Wars were, and came down on the side of the franchise before Disney being a libertarian fantasy. After all, the original trilogy was about heroic rebels vs. evil empire and even the morally greyer prequels treated their corporate villains as actually more authoritarian than the Galactic Republic. It only makes sense, then, that the franchise also embraces the very related idea of individualism.
Very true and valid I love how you said and the way I personally would say my opinion and belief is that they are one and the same obviously anakin is vader vader is anakin he’s the same human being with his personality feelings and who he is as a person and the way he is he was born with his anakin and vader sides that’s what makes him who he is and a character in Star Wars and just as a person in general just like how we as human beings have good and bad in us which is what makes us who we are as human beings he’s just simply good as anakin and simply bad as vader this anakin his is good side and vader is his bad side he’s him and the person he is and was meant to be either way which is what makes him anakin and vader he can’t be anakin without having his vader side and he can’t be vader without his anakin side that’s my way of putting it
I always believed Anakin and Vader were one and the same. This is something intrinsic to man; we are both capable of terrible evil, and terrible good. Hitler loved to paint. No one is any one thing. The defining difference is how we justify things. The beauty of Palpatines manipulation was he built this idea of an alternate Anakin in Vader, and then convinced Anakin he was that identity. He convinced Anakin he was dead, all that was left was Vader, and the commitment to that idea led Anakin to do terrible, terrible things. Things he would have been punished for had he survived the Death Star. Because we all know the excuse "I wasn't Anakin anymore" would absolutely never fly in galactic court. But Anakin wasn't really dead. Palpatine just tricked everyone into thinking he was. And Luke tore through that illusion, and showed his father he was always the same man. In that moment, Anakin was free and he acted as a free man. Up until that point, he had always been a slave. A slave to the ideas of the Jedi, a slave to Palpatine. But in that one moment he acted of his own accord, and his own accord only. To save his son.
@@blackshogun272 I'm not sure I agree with that. By that point he had been redeemed. It's very likely Anakin would've allowed himself to be tried and held accountable for his actions. I mean he committed genocide. There is no way he could have been redeemed and not accepted responsibility for those actions.
@@DarthMatusHolocron if that's what you believe I won't tell you otherwise but from my knowledge or how prideful and strong in the Force Anakin is, I don't see him willingly being locked away for life or executed.
@@blackshogun272 I mean, I'd agree with you if it was a younger, Clone Wars Anakin. 100% he wouldn't allow that to happen. But he wasn't the same man anymore. He had grown and endured a lot by then, and it had shaped him. I think he was more mature by that point, and finally fully worthy of the title of Jedi Master. I think that's why we see his Force ghost
I'm honestly surprised that there's very little to no comments regarding the outside variables that factored into Anakin's fall and Vader's Rise as they played a critical part. Since Ep I, we're subtly told that a void is left within Anakin when the Council mentioned he longs for his mother. Sidious, from day one, see's this with his comments at the end of Ep I. Between Ep I and Ep II, how much, in the pre-Disney canon, was mentioned in regards to Anakin? Sidious obviously manipulated Anakin's loneliness as a weakness and positioned Anakin to have further conflict within him. During Ep II, wasn't it Palpatine that suggested Anakin take Padme' to Naboo? Why? So that Anakin could fill the void his mother left and during this, Palpatine knew that Anakin would try to save his mother and fail in the process. This would ultimately lead to that void being filled by Padme'. Now, in Ep III, Anakin is torn between saving his wife and child or the Jedi Order. Palpatine close the once torn open wound, filled it with someone he grew to love, then ripped that away from him by making him chose between losing another person he loved or what he always longed to be! All this happened right under the nose of the Jedi Order and more importantly his Master, Kenobi. How could anyone ignore this fact when discussing Anakin's fall and Vader's Rise? They are different incarnations of the same person. Palpatine positioned himself as a close friend to Anakin since he was a young boy. His "influence" became a drug that changed Anakin into Vader.
bunke the Jedi Council themselves did just as much in terms of “isolating” Anakin. Lying to him, constantly berating him for getting doing things his way that the Jedi Council wouldn’t go do themselves. The saddest part is, the whole time, Palpatine wasn’t even lying to Anakin until he fell to the dark side already. The Jedi Council’s constant dismissal and disrespect of Anakin made it SO DAMN EASY for Palpatine to manipulate him, it’s almost embarrassing. If the Council had actually just put some faith in him, given him a pass on some things, I think things would’ve gone about differently.
You guys both bring up EXCELLENT points. In all ways, Anakin was likely going to fall to the dark side no matter what. The Jedi and their archaic teachings, constant disrespect of Anakin, and their arrogance and Palpatine's manipulation of his pain and weaknesses. If only Qui-Gon had lived, it may have gone differently. Or if Padme never returned. But they played out the way they did, just as Palpatine intended. This is one thing that I feel the Disney canon still hasn't ruined yet was Anakin's story arc besides Palpatine's return in 9.
SageofAges_PPN I do in a way think he was doomed from the get-go, but that wasn’t because HE was doomed to fall to the dark side, but more-so because the Jedi were going to fall at that point no matter what. If Qui-Gon had lived, it would’ve gone totally different. He was always more about the will of the force rather than the Jedi code, and that would’ve fit a person who came to the Jedi late like Anakin much better, even if Padmé had come back. Anakin would’ve likely put more trust in Qui-Gon about his feelings and whatnot, and Qui-Gon would’ve given the proper guidance for a kid who had been exposed to attachment before, not just let it slide like Obi-Wan did. I think Anakin needed that connection in Padmé, but Obi-Wan turning a blind eye completely just made it harder for Anakin to trust him when he and Padmé got pregnant, and the grave was already dug for the Order. I agree that TROS did kind of destroy Anakin’s sacrifice just by bringing Palpatine back. Such lazy writing, I would’ve liked it better if they just kept on with TLJ’s storyline instead of pretending like it didn’t happen
@@itsthemumu8585 I completely agree with you. The Jedi were essentially doomed and in the prime position for Palpatine's plans. Without those, they still would've fallen given enough time. And Qui-Gon would've been perfect for Anakin as a master. Obi-Wan was a good man, but just not the right fit. While I disliked, TLJ, I do agree Palpatine returning was a terrible move. Maybe have Snoke be a Whill or something?
@Dahlen Olson Anakin's emotional state did make him easier to manipulate, so I do agree with that. But it's just not that simple and Anakin wasn't just an average individual. Comparing what influenced Anakin to a mere TV commercial is severely underestimating what transpired and the time frame. There's about a 10 year gap between Ep I and Ep II, which is a lot of time for the manipulation to occur and the chess pieces put into place. Palpatine fed on Anakin's emotional state and created the rift between him and the Jedi Order. The loss of his mother, and his inability to protect her, made the void grow and it was filled with Padme' and his unborn child. Palpatine then made Anakin choose: The Jedi Order he always wanted to be or save the family like he couldn't before. This also doesn't factor in the fact that Palpatine, since Ep I, became a very close friend to Anakin and Kenobi was a reluctant teacher. Kenobi himself said he loved him like a brother. One somewhat similar example could be the "Knights of the Eternal Throne: Betrayal" Trailer where Vaylin becomes someone completely different. She is no longer Senya's innocent daughter, but changed.
@@jakubrejak1114 yeah, but fans were divived before 2015 with prequels, I think the only time fans weren't divided was 1977 and 1980, it goes downhill with ROTJ with divide on Ewoks
5:32 Hey that's me! Thanks for including both of my artworks Thor! :) I used to believe that Vader and Anakin were seperate people when I was younger. Like Vader tries to believe himself. But ever since I began to read comics, watch the Clone Wars and Rebels and read the novels. I see them as 1 character. Vader's movements, way of talking etc were all included in Anakin's character in the other sources of Star Wars. It really helped me believe they were the same character. Vader was always in Anakin and Anakin was always in Vader.
@@baccaismemebob2603 Thank you mean a lot! I'm definitely interrested in making some posters, this is just something like a hobby I do outside of school and UA-cam :)
@@thewarner2139 You don't get what I meant. Of course they are the same person. But they acted so different from each other, that in my mind, Darth Vader is just an entire different character than Anakin
Exactly I had a similar answer to it but I put it differently saying that Anakin is his light side name and vader is his dark side name and they are just names in the end of the day and also committing acts of good or bad don’t define if someone is good or bad but yes he’s the same exact individual life form in a human body either way and has the same personality either way the one and only difference is that anakin is his light side and vader is his dark side
Both sides make him who he is as anakin and vader thus makes him who he is as himself whether he’s anakin or vader but no matter which one he goes by he’s anakin and vader at the same time either way because both sides make him who he is and that’s how he was born and created palpatine/sidious gave him both his birth names and about what which name anakin/vader goes by they are just as coping mechanisms to me and coping mechanisms of him battling inside himself to see which of his sides win most of the time and which one he prefers to me and go by and it’s hard for me to say which of his sides win the most I mean I would say it’s his dark side in the end of the day but idk for sure I mean as I said before he is Anakin and Vader at the exact same time and moments always battling inside himself like him as Anakin is also him as Vader and him as Vader is also him as Anakin
Same person. Anger, hatred, bitterness and incredible disappointment and disillusionment can change a person drastically in my view. If everything you believe in about the world and yourself turns out to be a lie, it can only turn into a mental breakdown and a change in behavioural and psychological patterns. That is what I have seen in some of the people I worked with in my home country. Just my opinion.
Anakin was a Jedi that turned to the dark side. Palpatine named him Vader out of tradition (before he put on the mask). It was the same person responsible for good and evil. His story is not about schizophrenia,, it's about the consequences of poor decisions born out of fear.
"Current lore"? Do you mean 'arbitrarily made up by some so called story writer'? Cos George Lucas was pretty clear on the concept of the light and dark side. Anakin does not have a mental disorder. The dark side is not a brain disease. It is greed, selfishness, desire. It's the things we do and the choices we make that serve no one but ourselves. Darth Vader knows he is Anakin Skywalker but chooses to deny it, ignore it, and try to forget because he knows there is no redemption for what he has done. He cannot go back.
THANK YOU! An intelligent comment. Anyone who thinks Anakin and Darth Vader are LITERALLY two different people or characters, not just symbolically or from a certain POV, is outright stupid.
@@GREENIE-5000 Props for showing the world your profound ignorance on all things canon. Luckily your personal opinion on the story is irrelevant. The source material says I'm right and you have nothing in the way of a legitimate counter; that isn't pulled straight from your a s s. Even better? Lucas himself made them different entities when RotJ was edited to include young Anakin. Then again in TCW when Anakin and Padme talk about the other person inside Anakin when he loses control. Best you educate yourself on the lore before mouthing on a subject you know nothing about.
Damn I was waiting for this one, I agree with a lot of the comments.. but that moment with Ahosoka vs Vader in Rebels really answered the question for me.. after Ahsoka hit Vader in the mask, Matt Lanters voice came up when he said “ahosoka” as they stared down at eachother, it switched back to James Earls voice... this made me agree with the comment on 9:35
I have always believed that yes, they are the same person. This is the realization that Luke has that allows him to save his Father. Obi-Wan (and Vader) believed that Vader had destroyed the man that had been Anakin. Yet it's Anakin's pain and suffering that drove Vader's power, it's the fact that he is still Anakin that allows him to be so powerful as Vader and ultimately what allows him to reject the mantle of Vader.
Yeah I adopted a nickname basically throughout all of my childhood, but once I hit 16 I began to hate the person I was as a kid after seeing how many mistakes I made. So I'm now known by my real name and consider that kid an entirely separate person. Even talking about it in the third person as a coping mechanism.
I believe he is one in the same. Anakin saw no other option then join the dark side once he realized he has been duped by Papatine and he had no other friends.
He was given a choice between his mentor who was always nice to him and offered to save his wife, or his dickhead employers who don't give him credit and make him spy on his friends. He had to make a choice and, because the head of state was a fanatical sadistic cultist, he had to commit to whichever side he took. The Jedi were literally staging a coup. He got to the point where his only imagined option was violence. Regret working for Palpatine? You tell Padme that you'll kill him. Your wife accidentally brings an assassin to kill you? Choke her. Obi-Wan royally fucked up by playing into this. He forced Anakin to pick between continuing to be Darth Vader, or dying then and there. Luke would've tried to talk him down, or refused to fight him altogether. Luke showed him that one person still loved him.
Topics like this are how art is truly subjective, that's how it works for movies, it's not a matter of if it's just good or bad, people's taste isn't the debate where art is subjective, so thank you Thor for having discussions about Star Wars in the true perspective of art being subjective, a lot of people nowadays don't talk about topics like this one and forgot how to talk about the subjectivity of art
Good point and I love how Thor’s videos are about hearing what different people or different Star Wars fans have to say and about hearing all kinds of opinions and beliefs and discussing them in his video that’s what I love about this Star Wars channel
For me Anakin Skywalker /Darth Vader is a tragic hero who became evil not to rule but to save the people who carre and love. He done terrible things because when he lost evrything and evryone, have nothing but only rage, safering and vengeance. He is my favorite character from Star Wars because he saw me even the good guys could became bad guys and do terrible things if they're world ( evrything where they carre, the people who they love ) threatend. Also if you ask me who is responsible for his fall in to the dark side, I'll tell you is Darth Sidious 30 % and 70 % the Jedi Order.
Agreed and also agreed that the Jedi are more responsible than sidious and vader had a fiery burning passionate hatred for the Jedi that kept him alive and would hunt down and destroy every remaining Jedi there is due to how they made him feel but it’s at the end when he lets go of his hatred for the Jedi and his hate in general which leads to his death I mean he hated sidious but he hated the Jedi a lot more but once he kills sidious fulfilling the rule of two he lets go of his hate and dies
I really like the Hindu poem, which explains very well how Anakin and Darth Vader are both the same person and also different. The poem goes like this: I sent my soul into the eternities some vision of that afterlife to spell. And by and by my soul returns to me and said I am heaven and I am hell. We are all both. We have both inside us. Darkness and Light. In each day we choose which one we will be more like. Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader both resided in Anakin, and he chose which one would be in charge. After he was completely broken and there was nothing left.
Dude this has been the best comment answer episode. Sooo good. Loved every answer and when you take it seriously it’s a complicated question. Well done, Boss.
I've heard that George Lucas considers them to be different characters. The way I see it, Darth Vader is a persona that took over Anakin and the latter desperately wants to return to the light but his hatred for Palpatine is what allows Darth Vader to remain in control while Anakin is buried deep within. We also see in both Episodes V and VI that love is what allowed Anakin to resurface and ultimately allowed him to let go of his hate and vanquish both Darth Vader and Palpatine.
That's an interesting take. I always saw Vader as both a persona and embodiment of Anakin's darkness and depression following the Clone Wars. The good in Anakin was overshadowed by a narrative that Anakin died on Mustafar and that only Vader was left. Couple that with his hatred for Palpatine, the Jedi, and his own hatred of himself and he buried Anakin out of guilt, hatred, and depression. I think he was struggling to accept his actions and live with himself so he subscribed to the belief that Anakin was dead to distance himself from his pain.
@@grawman67 Anakin was never depressed during the clone wars. The clone wars was when things were finally starting to go right for Anakin (from his perspective at least). It gave him more opportunities to prove himself, he was respected and hailed as a hero by the people of Coruscant, it allowed him to improve his powers and skills and the war allowed him and Obi-Wan to bond. The clone wars mostly just affected Anakin by boosting his ego and his thirst for more power. However, I think Anakin was still somewhat in control after the Mustafar duel because in the scene where he's being encased in the armor, we can hear him faintly calling out to Padmé and he's still concerned about her safety. Which made Palpatine realize that love was the last spark of humanity in him and so he lied to him about having killed Padmé, which threw Anakin into the pit of despair (embodied by Darth Vader) and he remained there until he found out that his family hadn't died completely. But he hated Palpatine too much to pull himself back to the light.
@@vetarlittorf1807 I meant he was depressed following the Clone Wars. Not during. My bad. I definitely agree he had that spark of control and humanity left until he was told about Padme on the operating table.
One person can have multiple personas, like how someone can be a servant to one person, a father to another, and a spouse to yet another. I tend to think of the Sith as a cult and Vader just needed deprogramming. Or maybe Luke force-audited Vader and got rid of his thetans or something.
When did Lucas say that? Because there are some big differences between 1970's/early 80's george Lucas and the man who brought us the prequels and spent years and millions of dollars ruining his own classics with after-the-fact editing changes no one wanted. Maybe they are not the same man...🤣
Having them as two different entities could make Vader more interesting, but I'm not sure I like it. It introduces a lot of complication and questions, and Star Wars at its core is a very simple story. But at any rate, this turned out to be a fascinating discussion.
Dude, literally everybody who knows Anakin is Vader has an incentive to deny it, apart from Luke, who was the only dude that had his head on his shoulders. I don't care what anyone in the SW universe says about Anakin/Vader. It's either Obi-Wan/Ashoka(/Yoda?) that wanted to disassociate themselves from him to rid them of guilt, Vader himself who wanted to rid himself of Anakin's baggage and legacy, or Palpatine who wanted to cement his control over Vader. And in the end Obi-Wan and Yoda died as hermits and Palpatine was killed by Anakin and Anakin came back to the light side. And the only dude who legitimately won is Luke, because he knew what's going on. He was the only one who believed that Anakin and Vader are the same and it payed out.
All 100% facts Also, trying to kill Anakin on Mustafar was a bone boneheaded moved. Obi-Wan did nothing but strengthen the belief that there could be no redemption for Anakin.
I think Anakin's story is kinda like the Shadow of Jung's theory. Both personalyties are part of a whole, but both are in odds with one another, The Shadow being the dominant one
The 2003 Clone Wars Anakin is absolutely Vader to me. He was the perfect hybrid of the films' Anakin combined with Vader's actual mannerisms. The Hayden Christensen Anakin, had its moments but for me he didn't perfectly hit the mark. Hayden didn't exude the same confidence Vader did, even after he had given himself to the Dark Side. Hayden almost seemed intimidated acting alongside Ian McDiarmid's Palpatine, and I believe Hayden even admitted as much.
Great video. How about a poll on how people feel about the Inhibitor Chips forcing the Clones to commit Order 66, whether it was a good or bad idea. Because I've seen in many forms and comment sections, including on your Top 5 Reasons why The Clone Wars is some of the best Star Wars ever, how people debate over it, some like it and think it makes perfect sense, some don't and prefer the Legends explanation, and some are in the middle, It truly is, in my mind, an interesting topic of debate and one a lot of fans have a lot of different views on it.
I see Vader as an alternative persona that was born when Anakin committed all those evil acts. Like a disassociation disorder where the mind fragments to cope with the harsh reality. It is only when Vader meets Luke that the conflicting personalities clash and Anakin reemerges.
Great video Thor! Your channel is one of the best I've come across in a while. The Fanfictions are wonderful to binge watch/listen to as well. Keep up the awesome work!
The question reminded of this quote “The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts. ... And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. Alexander Solzhenitsyn”
I think they are the same but I understand why you would think they aren't. Anakins tragic fall to the dark side which culminated in him no longer being Anakin was what obi wan thought. However luke shows us that he still was Anakin skywalker whether or not he wanted to be. When vader tells luke he was right I believe that's the moment he shows us hes always been Anakin Skywalker just behind a mask.
Vader is Anakin under the rule and tyranny of evil. Would’ve been interesting to see Luke or even Kylo grapple between the dark and light more prominently than what we saw in Disney’s trilogy. I don’t think we’ll ever have a character as complex as Anakin/Vader in the franchise again.
Anakin: _I am the chosen one._ Vader: *Me too.* Anakin: _I am one of the strongest jedi who ever lived!_ Vader: *Same sh*t, pal.* Anakin: _Alright... I don't like sand..._ Vader: *...It's coarse, and rough, and irritating, and it gets everywhere.* Anakin: _Ok, then... I trained cute togruta girl as my apprentice, while you trained..._ Vader: *You, son of a...* Anakin: _Gotcha!_ Vader: *You know I have the answer, but I can't say it, because they took him from me!*
I personally believe Anakin and Vader to be the same. Yes, the force does influence individuals in certain ways that we can't possibly begin to understand but, it was ultimately Anakin's choice to go with Qui Gon and Obi Wan. It was ultimately Anakin's choice to skirt the rules in AOTC by pursuing Padme and going so far as to get married. And just as Anakin, when still loyal to the light side, ultimately had a choice. The same can be said for Darth Vader whom, is a fallen Anakin but, ultimately has a choice to save his son or let Luke die in Return of the Jedi.
I like the idea of Anakin possibly forming some sort of DID after his defeat on mustafar but we must remember it was Anakin who made the choice to stop Windu from killing palpatine this was before he became Darth Vader. Another great point was that Anakin always had anger in him. I think that point is supported by the fact he was born into slavery and had a hatred toward slavers(which is completely justified) but there was always something there that made him feel lesser than. I’ve always seen the darkside as being a addictive way to power more like a mindset. A Jedi knight trained in the force I feel would still have sense to make choice in there actions. Anakin was at the point where he could have made the choice to leave it all behind and run away with padme but he had the option to keep using the darkside and pursue power. He made his choice. Once he is imprisoned in his suit he chooses to cast away his name in place of his new Sith title and persona as many of the comments explained. Just some of my thoughts great video
I heard one of the plans for "Force Awakens" was to feature Anakin's Force Ghost...to be partially shrouded in darkness and visible mechanical bits, something that would imply not only is Darth Vader still very much a part of Anakin in death as Anakin was a part of Darth Vader in life.
I personally view Anakin and Vader being somewhat the same but also separate, each vying for control. Vader always existed inside of Anakin: he was the hate, the anger, the fear and the desire for power that Anakin felt. It came out when he killed the Tusken Raiders, when he killed Dooku, and numerous other times during the Clone Wars. But Vader only took control when Anakin did something truly monstrous by betraying and attacking Windu. Anakin was able to start to come back when Luke refused to join him, as is evident when Luke and Co. escaped Bespin: Piett was certain he was going to die just like Ozzel for failing Vader, but Vader simply gives one last look out the window and walks past. It was sadness. That is not to excuse anything that Anakin did as Vader, since they are still the same person. It is much like when someone goes into a violent rage: if you kill someone, you are still responsible, but it can often feel like someone else is in control. I like to compare this to another Sci-fi character that has a similar occurrence: Kerrigan from Starcraft. Kerrigan and the Queen of Blades are both the same yet different, like Anakin and Vader. The Queen of Blades always existed inside of Kerrigan, cultivated by the years of experimentation by the Confederacy. The hatred, the rage and the desire to be powerful were all inside of Kerrigan, but it was when she was infested that it all came out. Sarah Kerrigan was suppressed, and the Queen of Blades was unleashed. Kerrigan is still very much responsible for what she did, but as the Queen of Blades she finally had the power that she had wanted: no longer a helpless child at the mercy (or lack thereof) of the Confederate Scientists or of the traitorous Mengsk. She was "Queen B***ch of the Universe" as she put it, and reveled in it. She was, in every respect, invincible. But Sarah Kerrigan saw the carnage that the Queen of Blades unleashed and was horrified at it, but couldn't seem to get free. I feel the infestation process naturally enhanced the darker, more feral side of Kerrigan, making harder for Sarah to get control. However, in Starcraft 2, as the Queen of Blades is launching an all out assault on Raynor's forces to destroy the Xel'Naga artifact, Raynor hears the voice of Sarah saying "Jim, don't give up" right before the Artifact activates. When (mostly) deinfested, Sarah reverts to being how she was in Starcraft, but with some hold overs as the Queen of Blades, especially in relation to the Zerg. When Raynor is kidnapped and claimed dead, Kerrigan reverts the deinfestation, albeit with a slightly different process, free of the Swarm's influence, which seems to allow Sarah to maintain more control. This I could see as something that could happen had Anakin lived after RotJ, where at a difficult moment, he could lapse into being Vader again and give in to those tendencies. This is very evident when Kerrigan frees Raynor: she claims that she had to, being kind and remorseful with Raynor while just moments ago being vicious to the guards. To Raynor, all he sees is that she has reverted back to being the same monster that murdered Fenix and ravaged entire worlds, which of course he brings up. Kerrigan then shows the dichotomy between her two sides: "You swore one day you would kill the Queen of Blades. You were the only one who believed in me (Sarah)". All in all a very interesting look at both characters. Arthas would be interesting to explore, but that is a whole other story.
Darth Vader hates himself because of his past so does his best to try and discard anakin until he finds about about Luke his only anchor to his former life as anakin
Follow the path to the Dark side. Fear leads to Anger Anger leads to Hate Hate leads to Suffering Now imagine those are the lenses you see the galaxy in you are angry and hate everything because you are afraid and suffering Darth Vader is very much the wounded animal Anakin Skywalker. Or as another friend put it Darth Vader is Anakin looking back from the other side of the dark looking glass.
I think that Anakin and Vader are almost completely the same person, I find their situation very similar to Jekyll and Hyde, Hyde is not a separate character, he is merely a physical form Jekyll’s impulses and dark desires , it is left ambiguous as to their exact relationship but it is implied that Jekyll knows what he is doing when he is Hyde. When Darth Vader was corrupted by the dark side he became an entity similar to Hyde perhaps even less separate from Anakin. We know he recognises Obi Wan etc so he remembers Anakin’s life much like Hyde remembers Jekyll’s but the most important difference is that Hyde was split from Jekyll using gothic be afraid of science chemistry, but Darth Vader, though acting on his malevolent impulses is still Anakin. If the dark side was not a factor I would say with certainty they were the same person however the dark side is an unknown, it may well have a corrupting effect on the mind which causes a small degree of separation between the two, but not enough that they aren’t the same character.
Personally, I feel like Vader is all of Anakin’s insecurities, anger and hatred, sprung into terrible being. The Dark Side is just being channeled into him. They’re two split personalities in one body, and I feel like the personality not in charge is just watching from the backseat, which explains why Anakin wanted to atone in the end. And that’s why Anakin remained by Palps. He had nothing. He even physically lost everything - his limbs, his lungs, his family, the order that raised him (as toxic as that relationship was), and his older brother. Palpating and the Dark Side was all he had left
How did the society fail them? To me, the rise of Palpatine is a direct consequence of the Jedi's failure. They couldn't even sense an extremely powerful Sith living and working just down the street.
@@mr.safensound4238 pretty sure you're thinking of the matrix lol of course the story has to do with the world or galaxy in which they live...they talk about politics, religions, oppression and freedoms. Their choice to fight the empire and take back their society is pretty important i think to the story. lol also the society did fail the jedi because they were turned into solders when their place in society was being a keeper of the the peace...pretty sure thats why Aniken fell, because the society in which they served made them a hypocritical institution. "hes to dangerous to be left alive"...said by the chancilor and the head of the jedi order. whats the difference if the enemy and the order in which you serve start saying the same things. obiwan taught him to be a jedi and not a solder. Society had allowed corruption and the a civil war...i mean come on they had senators debating trade disputes and elections....
@@darthsensei3838 by 'society' do you mean the 'Republic'? Since the Jedi are totally separate from the society, being a reclusive monastic order. They don't encourage any attachments or influences from the 'society'. The Jedi did choose to support the Government of the Republic, but we see how these senators DO NOT truly represent the 'society'. Nute Gunray, Count Dooku and Palpatine all had their own selfish motivations. The Jedi Council made a bad decision, they were clearly wrong to directly start fighting in the Clone Wars. They wanted to protect the 'Republic' to avoid losing their own position of power. But this was their choice NOT the 'society's'. Qui-Gon Jinn showed us how the true Jedi should deal with politics and wars: "I can only protect you, I cannot fight a war for you."
Well it's not a suggestion for a poll but rather a discussion/fafic a small change in how events play, "What if Anakin left Jedi order before Clone Wars and decided to stay with Padme on Nabu" like this could be a very interesting change in how events would play, and really would like to hear your take on this idea
8:00 I mean, Anakin, or at that point Darth Vader, was tearing up after he slaughtered the Separatist leaders, he knew he was doing wrong. That confirms him as a villain. Doesn't matter what he is wearing, he's still a bad person. Me, 10, 20, 30 years ago, I would be a complete different person than today, no dark side required. To claim Anakin is a different person is either disingenuous or simply inexperienced with life.
I think that you once said that the Dark Side can be seen as similar to a drug. In that way, I can absolutely see Vader as being sort of smashed out of his mind, doing and saying things he would NEVER do sober, aka Anakin. The influence of the drug certainly plays a role, but it's not the end all for responsibility or consequence.
Even though it’s too late... let’s get weird: To me, vader is a realized embodiment of Anikan’s shadow aspects. Aspects that he spent a lifetime suppressing and denying, as per the Jedi dictums... Doing so, makes these aspects all the more powerful and autonomous on an unconscious level. Once tipped passed the breaking point or willful transformation, this can be a liberation of sorts for these aspects to finally “come to life” and unless consciously integrated, they will “take over”. And, in Vader’s case, continuously war within one’s “self” against previously embodied “light” aspects. Amplify that with the power of “the dark side” (or the perceived experience of it) and the subsequent effect this may have on the psyche and... voila’. “Vader betrayed and murdered your father... from a certain point of view.”
The Dark side to me, is like a really strong drug that gives you a boost, but the thing is... it's REALLY ADDICTING and destroys your body (eyes changing color, skin getting pale) you might use it once in a while and you'll be ok (like Luke using ''force choke'' for example) but the more you use it, the more you need it, and it turns you into an addict, the dark side makes you feel powerful and you devellop an hunger for power and when you can't have this power, you become tense, angry, impatient. even in rebels when Ezra used the dark side in the first season it made him feel cold and weird after using it. But the sequel trilogy ruined this for me, Kylo Ren should be FULLY CORRUPTED by the dark side with yellow eyes and everything, he throws tantrum and scream like a child, he kills people left and right, even is own father... but he still struggle with the light... I don't get it !? in Star Wars the dark side of the force was always this dangerous power that corrupts your mind, it's the easy path to power... but now for some reason it's not.
I think in the light of the newer films (episodes 7-9) with essence transfer it's more like a possession of a type. A Sith spirit somehow begins to take over once you start dabbling in the hatred.
That would ignore the Clone Wars, Anakin turn to the dark side by his own free will, because he actually began to believe the bullshit that Palpatine was saying, that the galaxy needed a wise and kind leader to made the decisions for everyone regardless of the democratic process, and feed into Anakin insecurities and thirst for power.
I draw an analogy to while drink driving one causing death; Ultimately, the individual chooses to drink and drive that you didn't expect or anticipate the extent of the consequences is of little probative value. The individual makes the initial choice and is responsible for all that follows. One is a consequence of the others' choices.
How about a poll for favorite EU Jedi/Sith/Other. I'm still upset by KK's comments suggesting there wasn't any source material when characters like Darth Caedus and Abeloth exist.
There’s a big difference between source material (Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter Marvel comics, etc.) and a series of books based on the universe of a movie series. Making a movie based on a book spun-off from that exact same movie series has never been attempted before and it’s understandable that they didn’t want to go down that route. Also, there are too many fan-favourite EU characters to narrow them down for a poll.
@@ajzeg01 I understand, thats why I mentioned Darth Caedus who is essentially Kylo Ren before Kylo Ren. They had plenty of Skywalker stories to pull from but ignored all of it. Edit* Sorry I also forgot to mention his twin sister Jaina Solo is someone they could have used instead Rey.
I agree with you and the other commenters about the influence of the Dark Side on Vader. It really does seem to be an almost uncontrollable force like a drug that amplifies certain parts of a person's personality and suppresses others. But you still have to let it in, and as we saw it was still possible for Vader to resist the Dark Side even after years of letting it run wild within him. The Dark Side doesn't completely possess you like a demon, but seems to be more like a really bad habit. And that makes me wonder how the Light Side might alter someone's personality. We see Luke change quite a bit as he becomes a Jedi, but it's hard to say how much of his character development comes from leaving home and growing up, and how much of it may be the influence of the Force on his personality. Rey doesn't seem to change much. And with earlier actual padawans like Ahsoka it's really hard to know what they would have been like without the teachings of the Jedi temple to guide them. As for Vader... Yes, Vader and Anakin are the same person. I mean, of course they are, they have to be. But the events of Revenge of The Sith completely destroyed Anakin. They put him under so much stress that he suffered a kind of ego death, or as Wikipedia puts it, a "complete loss of subjective self-identity." Under normal circumstances this might have left Anakin in a kind of dissociative state where he'd just lay in bed and stare at the walls, maybe replaying the duel with Obi-Wan and choking Padme in his head, over and over. But the events of the movie were carefully orchestrated by Palaptine to produce exactly this effect in Anakin. Once Palpatine had the Jedi broken down he remade Anakin into Vader by giving him a choice: suffer horribly for the rest of your life, _or_ become my apprentice and let me show you how to be greater than you ever imagined. So Vader is functionally a different person because he's a creation of Palaptine. Anakin is still in there, but his personality is so distorted he thinks of himself as Vader and Anakin as dead.
I think they are the same. When Anakin turned himself to Sidious, he still was kind of Anakin, did all the dark side stuff, welcomed Padme and stuff like that. He still was Anakin but now out of control. And Vader remembers what Anakin did. I don't think it's a situation with Bruce Banner and the Hulk where each of them is fighting over the control of the body.
I always felt like Vader and Anakin were two different people but after watching you're video I see that it is much more complicated then that and there is a lot of gray area.
The difference is in my opinion, that Anakin made a few mistakes where he used his anger and let that control him. Palpatine was using this and sort of brainwashing him to become one with his darker self and that led him to the dark side. This sort of happens in our world, you can brainwash people to do evil things and make them believe it's for the greater good. The big difference is that in our favorit galaxy far far away, you at the same time gets new dark force powers that can make you strong and they can be hard to resist.
This really shouldn't be a debate. In the original DVD release of episode 3, there is a special feature called the Chosen One where George Lucas says using the dark side is a positive feedback loop that turns you into another person, so Vader and Anikan are different. Lucas also said this is why he replaced old Anikan with young Anikan for the force ghost in episode 6, when he came back to the light he was not Vader anymore but was Anikan again
I like to believe that Anakin was the Jedi we saw from ATOC through til the climax of ROTS. We see Vader briefly come through the cracks here and there until he fully took shape after join Sidious. And for the next 20 years, Vader was the only identity that existed until meeting Luke triggered that pull that brought Anakin back to the light.
Funny enough I voted "different people but grey area" but considering the insanely thoughtful comments in the video and in this thread it has changed my opinion to "it's far more complicated" because fundamentally what we are debating here is the core question of "what is identity?" and yeah no clear-cut answer to that one haha
This is an excellent question and whether you're asking George Lucas Jr himself or a vibrant generation of SW fans, the answers truly are quite simple yet vast in truly pondering and explaining the magnitude and great Foundation of this journey!) The face of the dark side and iconic is Vader, while one of the three or four or more of the Light side is Ani!) A great idea that we all should Express more especially with the great novel and work of true literature respecting and cherishing 🌟 Wars not too far away is that of Rey & Kylo being living legacies for him!
Dave seid that when Ashoka got Vader in the face that it was a moment of clarity for Anakin wakeing and seeing Ashoka he then calls her name twice but seeing her at that moment made Anakin retreat back into his mind due to the quilt and seeing a person who reminds him of his failure and at that point Vader took back over saying then you die sure sounds like the protege of George Lucas is saying they are two separate personalities and u can find the video of Dave saying this on UA-cam
I am somewhat surprised no one brought up the drug analogy. Yes, Anakin is Vader--but it's like when people we know (and possibly love) get addicted to drugs/alcohol/food...whatever controls them. Still the same person, but the drug (Dark Side) dictates what they do rather than themselves. Like when you hear people say, "I was a different person back then," The Dark Side is like a powerful drug. Anakin and Vader are the same person, but one is with the drug flowing heavily through their veins. In the Dark Side's case it doesn't just take control of the physical; it dominates the heart, mind and soul, making it far more powerful than any drug in existence.
A great story in a “ If Darth Vader lives “ after Return or the Jedi, I would like to see something along those lines... some “ what if’s” type Star Wars movies might be a way to salvage the whole franchise, familiar character’s set in the Star Wars universe but with no “ pressure “ of the whole skywalker saga hanging over the movies, it’s time to take it to the next level! If the Last Jedi was a “ what if “ movie and not a link to the actual saga, we could pretend that movie doesn’t wreck a movie franchise
The what if scenario of if Anakin survived the events of Return of the Jedi reminds me of Cynder from the Legend of Spyro trilogy. The differences between Anakin and Cynder are numerous. However, a similar character arc emerges that the two share. Both were manipulated by a great evil to bring that evil to power. Cynder gets raised as Malefor’s general and becomes the Terror of the Skies and is freed from his influence thanks to Spyro. Later on in the story, Cynder falls once more under Malefor’s control only to be freed by Spyro, of whom she developed romantic feelings for, and helps defeat Malefor. Meanwhile, Anakin gets manipulated by Palpatine to become Darth Vader so the Sith would rise to rule the Galaxy for a couple decades and thanks to his feelings for his son, Luke, that he was freed from his mental prison of Darth Vader to defeat Sidious and fulfill the prophecy of the Chosen One (though thanks to the existence of The Last Jedi, J. J. Abrams had to bring Palpatine back from the grave for the Rise of Skywalker, the prophecy was deemed null and void).
Inseriously dislike the concept, that the Dark Side corrupts people like Anakin, and makes theme do with little free will. It takes away the responsibility and complexity of the character. Everyone of us hase the „dark side“ in us and every seemingly normal person isn‘t to far away from commitng atrocious acts like Anakin did. (look no further than the Germans in the 3. Reich). A Person isn‘t inheritly evil nor good. Of course we push away responsibility and say it was the dark side or Darth Vader that did these things. We can use drugs (or the dark side for that matter) to try forget the pain and lose ourselves in self pity. Or we make a decision. Choose the dark side or the light. Its both a part of us, and we have the power make the choice. Like Anakin/Darth Vader did in the End.
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*get selfish you get stuff, or you want stuff, and when you want stuff and you get stuff then you are afraid somebody is going to take it away from you ... once you become afraid that somebody's going to take it away from you or you're gonna lose it, then you start to become angry, especially if you're losing it, and that anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering."* ~ George Lucas, 2010, while working on the Mortis Arc.
Obi Wan says they are separate people because he and Yoda don’t want to disclose the truth just yet. Yoda even says it on his deathbed. “Not ready for the burden were you”. I love these videos and comments, but there is always another perspective to each and every one
So if you're on the light side, you're one person. If you're on the dark side you're another. What about force insensitives (or untrained force sensitives)? Are they half one person and half another? If little Annie (ugh!) was never trained then would he be Darth Skywalker or Anakin Vader or even a third, separate person? Just like the Wookies living on Endor, it does not make sense!
I like the idea of Vader and Anakin being "different" beings, specially considering Anakin was the chosen one and was as strong in the force as he was I sometimes think about what I would have done different with the sequel trilogy, like, you know, both Rey and Finn being jedi, but Finn's story is about freeing the Stormtroopers and fighting Phasma while Rey and Luke have to defeat Kylo and Snoke, also *NO KYLO REDEMPTION* And in my opinion it would have been *WAY* more interesting if Vader's and Anakin's "essence" had "split" or of he could "drain" Anakin's so Vader could actually manifest as a sith ghost (as in legends) and be *COMPLETELY* devoid of Anakin's thoughts, being truly just a force of darkness and Kylo's master, instructing him to "Finish what he had started", wich would include continuing the rule of two and killing his master, since Vader is already dead tho, Snoke would be the perfect replacement, Snoke would just some wannabe Palpatine who took Kylo believing he actually had any control over him, with Snoke being a former imperial guard like in the Crimson Empire comic or some inquisitor that lived long enough and avoided being killed once they were no longer neccesary, returning to claim the empire as his own
Anakin was a Jedi who was constantly troubled by the whispers of the dark side. When Mace Windu was killed and Anakin Skywalker fell the dark side started to co-pilot with Anakin, essentially becoming a new person in Vader. Thinking of it less as Anakin and Vader being two different people and instead "Vader" essentially being the unification of two voices makes the most sense in my mind
After watching game of throne I noticed similarities between Theon Greyjoy and Anakin. Theon gets captured and tortured by Ramsay...becoming Reek, the name given to him by Ramsay, and when Sansa attempts to free him and calls him his real name (Theon). He feels so trapped by Ramsay and so manipulated that he doesn't want to leave and insists that his name is Reek. Similarly, Vader becomes Sidious's apprentice and becomes slave to him... Sidious gives him the name Vader. and overtime becomes he becomes slave to Sidious, knowing that he cannot escape. aAgain and again he rejects the name Anakin Skywalker, stating that name means nothing to me, and when Luke tries to free him from the emperors grasp. He says it is to late for me. and it to fearful and somewhat loyal to the emperor... until eventually he is redeemed
Fear of losing padme drove him to the dark.
Fear of losing luke brought him back to the light.
Actually, it was his love for Luke that brought him back to the light. In Episode III, fear and hate overpowered Anakin's love but in Episode VI it was love that overpowered Anakin's fear and hate.
@@vetarlittorf1807 fair point actually
He was finally strong enough to confront his fear...its the destiny of a jedi
I think his romantic love for Padme was a selfish and possessive love, and his paternal love for Luke was selfless.
He was willing to kill for Padme. He was willing to die for Luke.
Niiiiice full circle.
I can totally see how Anakin "became" Vader as a coping mechanism. He convinced himself that the person he was is "dead". That makes it easier to cope with who he had become and the things he has to do. Much the same way that multiple personality disorder is the same thing. They are the same man, but they are very different.
DID is very different and much more severe than coping on the level we see Vader doing.
I could see this as a possibility, but I don't think it reaches the level of a multiple personality disorder.
I think it is closer to a nome de gurre, where one takes on a new identity to be able to later disavow the atrocities they witness and/or commit in war. Rather than a mental disorder, it is a purposeful and conscious decision, which one can chose to reverse. (which is what I believe we saw)
@@docmike8601 Maybe, but consider the amount of self loathing Vader must have had for Anakin. Anakin couldn't save Shmi, he was too weak. Couldn't save Padme, couldn't beat Obi-Wan. He must have hated who he was, and if his former life as Anakin became a symbol of weakness to him, imagine how far in his own mind me might go to purge who he once was.
@@mikeborsum2953 like I said, I consider it a possibility, but personally don't think it reached that level.
Definitely something worth considering and I recognize it as a meritorious argument.
@@mikeborsum2953 Anakin would never hurt Obiwan, his friend, his mentor, his father-figure, his brother. Anakin is in fact the one who constantly saves Obiwan's life. It was 'Vader' that lost to Obiwan. And it was not this failure that hurt him the most, rather his complete failure to overcome Palpatine when he was still the 'weak' Anakin.
Anakin was used and abused by his false 'friend' Palpatine, who seduced him much like a paedophile grooms a vulnerable child. His self-loathing comes from his shame and guilt of succumbing to Palpatine's manipulation.
In the Revenge of the Sith novelisation it's explained how Vader's plan was to succeed where Anakin had failed, and to find a way of defeating Palpatine once and for all:
"...He (Vader) could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his "Master" already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis's discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden . . .transformation.
A fatal transformation.
Everything was proceeding according to plan..."
"He's more machine now, than man. Twisted and evil"
why did I read it in Alec Guinness' voice? dang!
Ben was wrong though. He thought Vader could not be turned. Luke proved him wrong.
@@ajzeg01 the Jedi were wrong. as we see in the OT, the PT & in TCW, they lived to suppress their darker feelings. if there's a thing the Order fears, it's the Dark side itself, imho.
“Anakin Skywalker was weak. I destroyed him.”
“Then I will avenge his death”
"Revenge is not the Jedi way."
@@utoresa5193 Ironically Anakin/Vader still taught Ahsoka.
Dude this is one of my top 5 favorite star wars moments
Uto Resa 519 “I’m no Jedi”
I hated that scene. I just don’t think it’s in character for Anakin/Vader to want to hurt Ahsoka. Anakin had reasons to fight Obi-Wan. Anakin attacked Padmé in a fit of anger, possessiveness and paranoia, and then despaired over Padmé’s death. I just don’t believe Anakin would reach out to his son while disregarding Ahsoka.
I don't think Obi-Wan convinced himself that Vader was a different person by any stretch of the imagination. He told Luke a lot of... alternative truths to avoid him asking too many questions about the clone wars. When Luke asks about it specifically, he dodges the question. This was all to avoid revealing the failures of the Jedi, especially Anakin, and lead Luke to become a Jedi. In Legends, he writes the whole truth in a journal for Luke to find once he's ready to accept it, in which we see he had Obi-Wan had already come to terms with what really happened
Yeah, the way Obi-Wan pauses before he tells Luke that "he betrayed and murdered your father" is the pause of a man gearing himself up to tell a lie.
@@RicardoAGuitar I also love how that is a coincidence since it wasn't George's plan
@@darthtroller Of course. It still works perfectly
@@darthtroller yeah that because the original plan Obi Wan killed Anakin so he was still gearing up to lie to luke. The original line was supposed to be "No, Obi-Wan killed your father."
Let's be honest, Anakin was a garbage human being. He only cared about himself and those that cared about him. The second Padme seemed she was aligned with Obi wan, he choked her out. That's why he killed children, because he though it would keep Padme loving him.
I think the essence of "good vs evil" in Star Wars is identity. The good guys have faces, have names, have personality, and the bad guys doesn't. That's why most of them hide themselves in masks, tatoos, hoods and uniforms. The Dark Side takes the identity from the self and from the society. In Return of the Jedi, anyone say's the Emperor's name, even himself. His name as person, even his name as a Sith doesn't matter, only his position. And Vader is something like that. Vader is Anakin in flesh, but all that defines him was forgotten. The Sith believes they are imposing their own will, but this is the biggest lie that trap them. Vader is a figure, a symbol of power, confiance, strenght, violence. Vader is the confortable and painful lie Anakin chose to hide himself and exposes to the galaxy. Anakin taking back his own identity is getting himself free from that lie, and by consequence, freeing the world from the same lie who destroy and corrupt everything it touchs.
@Optimus Prime and the Sith always go by their Sith name and rarly their true name. except for Count Dooku, his Sith name is Darth Tyranus, but EVERYONE except for Sidious called him by his real name as Count Dooku, only his master called him Darth in secret but in public he was known by his real name. But to the general public he was merely the rogue Jedi leader of the Separatist Movement seeking independence from the corrupt Republic. He was evil in battle and to the Jedi, but when in diplomatic or public situations, he seemed a noble political figure. But that was due to the lying and false nature he and Sidious pulled during the Clone Wars, Palpy was the public face of the Republic, and Dooku was the public face of the Separatists, though many CIS commanders new about Sidious, but not that he was Palpatine.
Generation Tech, I believe, did a video some months back exploring what the politics of Star Wars were, and came down on the side of the franchise before Disney being a libertarian fantasy. After all, the original trilogy was about heroic rebels vs. evil empire and even the morally greyer prequels treated their corporate villains as actually more authoritarian than the Galactic Republic. It only makes sense, then, that the franchise also embraces the very related idea of individualism.
Very true and valid I love how you said and the way I personally would say my opinion and belief is that they are one and the same obviously anakin is vader vader is anakin he’s the same human being with his personality feelings and who he is as a person and the way he is he was born with his anakin and vader sides that’s what makes him who he is and a character in Star Wars and just as a person in general just like how we as human beings have good and bad in us which is what makes us who we are as human beings he’s just simply good as anakin and simply bad as vader this anakin his is good side and vader is his bad side he’s him and the person he is and was meant to be either way which is what makes him anakin and vader he can’t be anakin without having his vader side and he can’t be vader without his anakin side that’s my way of putting it
I always believed Anakin and Vader were one and the same. This is something intrinsic to man; we are both capable of terrible evil, and terrible good. Hitler loved to paint. No one is any one thing.
The defining difference is how we justify things. The beauty of Palpatines manipulation was he built this idea of an alternate Anakin in Vader, and then convinced Anakin he was that identity. He convinced Anakin he was dead, all that was left was Vader, and the commitment to that idea led Anakin to do terrible, terrible things. Things he would have been punished for had he survived the Death Star. Because we all know the excuse "I wasn't Anakin anymore" would absolutely never fly in galactic court.
But Anakin wasn't really dead. Palpatine just tricked everyone into thinking he was. And Luke tore through that illusion, and showed his father he was always the same man. In that moment, Anakin was free and he acted as a free man. Up until that point, he had always been a slave. A slave to the ideas of the Jedi, a slave to Palpatine. But in that one moment he acted of his own accord, and his own accord only. To save his son.
Had Vader survived he would have for sure never let himself be executed or tortured in a maximum security prison by the New Republic.
@@blackshogun272 I'm not sure I agree with that.
By that point he had been redeemed. It's very likely Anakin would've allowed himself to be tried and held accountable for his actions.
I mean he committed genocide. There is no way he could have been redeemed and not accepted responsibility for those actions.
@@DarthMatusHolocron if that's what you believe I won't tell you otherwise but from my knowledge or how prideful and strong in the Force Anakin is, I don't see him willingly being locked away for life or executed.
@@blackshogun272 I mean, I'd agree with you if it was a younger, Clone Wars Anakin. 100% he wouldn't allow that to happen.
But he wasn't the same man anymore. He had grown and endured a lot by then, and it had shaped him. I think he was more mature by that point, and finally fully worthy of the title of Jedi Master. I think that's why we see his Force ghost
Of course Anakin wasn't dead, he was just buried under all the hate and self-loathing.
I hate that Disney Star Wars has made me so bitter towards any discussion of lore.
It's like they could make it so that anyone was just a clone, or two...
Ironic isn't? a company built on the back of storytelling being against the discussion of, wait for it...STORYTELLING!?!
Yessss ... let the hate flow through you!
Saturday morning. Delicious breakfast. 18 minute “Let’s talk some Star Wars”. Perfect.
ooh hope you enjoyed it
Same, what a good way to start my day
Lucky you. It's night time here.
@@vetarlittorf1807 Mother Russia?
for those who are lonley, you and your existince is beatifull
I'm honestly surprised that there's very little to no comments regarding the outside variables that factored into Anakin's fall and Vader's Rise as they played a critical part.
Since Ep I, we're subtly told that a void is left within Anakin when the Council mentioned he longs for his mother. Sidious, from day one, see's this with his comments at the end of Ep I. Between Ep I and Ep II, how much, in the pre-Disney canon, was mentioned in regards to Anakin? Sidious obviously manipulated Anakin's loneliness as a weakness and positioned Anakin to have further conflict within him.
During Ep II, wasn't it Palpatine that suggested Anakin take Padme' to Naboo? Why? So that Anakin could fill the void his mother left and during this, Palpatine knew that Anakin would try to save his mother and fail in the process. This would ultimately lead to that void being filled by Padme'.
Now, in Ep III, Anakin is torn between saving his wife and child or the Jedi Order. Palpatine close the once torn open wound, filled it with someone he grew to love, then ripped that away from him by making him chose between losing another person he loved or what he always longed to be!
All this happened right under the nose of the Jedi Order and more importantly his Master, Kenobi.
How could anyone ignore this fact when discussing Anakin's fall and Vader's Rise?
They are different incarnations of the same person. Palpatine positioned himself as a close friend to Anakin since he was a young boy. His "influence" became a drug that changed Anakin into Vader.
bunke the Jedi Council themselves did just as much in terms of “isolating” Anakin. Lying to him, constantly berating him for getting doing things his way that the Jedi Council wouldn’t go do themselves. The saddest part is, the whole time, Palpatine wasn’t even lying to Anakin until he fell to the dark side already. The Jedi Council’s constant dismissal and disrespect of Anakin made it SO DAMN EASY for Palpatine to manipulate him, it’s almost embarrassing. If the Council had actually just put some faith in him, given him a pass on some things, I think things would’ve gone about differently.
You guys both bring up EXCELLENT points. In all ways, Anakin was likely going to fall to the dark side no matter what. The Jedi and their archaic teachings, constant disrespect of Anakin, and their arrogance and Palpatine's manipulation of his pain and weaknesses. If only Qui-Gon had lived, it may have gone differently. Or if Padme never returned. But they played out the way they did, just as Palpatine intended. This is one thing that I feel the Disney canon still hasn't ruined yet was Anakin's story arc besides Palpatine's return in 9.
SageofAges_PPN I do in a way think he was doomed from the get-go, but that wasn’t because HE was doomed to fall to the dark side, but more-so because the Jedi were going to fall at that point no matter what. If Qui-Gon had lived, it would’ve gone totally different. He was always more about the will of the force rather than the Jedi code, and that would’ve fit a person who came to the Jedi late like Anakin much better, even if Padmé had come back. Anakin would’ve likely put more trust in Qui-Gon about his feelings and whatnot, and Qui-Gon would’ve given the proper guidance for a kid who had been exposed to attachment before, not just let it slide like Obi-Wan did. I think Anakin needed that connection in Padmé, but Obi-Wan turning a blind eye completely just made it harder for Anakin to trust him when he and Padmé got pregnant, and the grave was already dug for the Order. I agree that TROS did kind of destroy Anakin’s sacrifice just by bringing Palpatine back. Such lazy writing, I would’ve liked it better if they just kept on with TLJ’s storyline instead of pretending like it didn’t happen
@@itsthemumu8585 I completely agree with you. The Jedi were essentially doomed and in the prime position for Palpatine's plans. Without those, they still would've fallen given enough time. And Qui-Gon would've been perfect for Anakin as a master. Obi-Wan was a good man, but just not the right fit. While I disliked, TLJ, I do agree Palpatine returning was a terrible move. Maybe have Snoke be a Whill or something?
@Dahlen Olson
Anakin's emotional state did make him easier to manipulate, so I do agree with that. But it's just not that simple and Anakin wasn't just an average individual. Comparing what influenced Anakin to a mere TV commercial is severely underestimating what transpired and the time frame.
There's about a 10 year gap between Ep I and Ep II, which is a lot of time for the manipulation to occur and the chess pieces put into place. Palpatine fed on Anakin's emotional state and created the rift between him and the Jedi Order. The loss of his mother, and his inability to protect her, made the void grow and it was filled with Padme' and his unborn child. Palpatine then made Anakin choose: The Jedi Order he always wanted to be or save the family like he couldn't before.
This also doesn't factor in the fact that Palpatine, since Ep I, became a very close friend to Anakin and Kenobi was a reluctant teacher. Kenobi himself said he loved him like a brother.
One somewhat similar example could be the "Knights of the Eternal Throne: Betrayal" Trailer where Vaylin becomes someone completely different. She is no longer Senya's innocent daughter, but changed.
The problem with separating the two is that it absolves Anakin of responsibility which I feel would then make him less interesting as a character
Last time I was this early the fandom wasn't a divided mess!
1977?
Ah, the good old days.
@@goodmind4940More like 2015. The hype for Episode 7 united us all.
@@jakubrejak1114 yeah, but fans were divived before 2015 with prequels, I think the only time fans weren't divided was 1977 and 1980, it goes downhill with ROTJ with divide on Ewoks
@@goodmind4940 You gotta admit they were cute tho.
5:32 Hey that's me! Thanks for including both of my artworks Thor! :)
I used to believe that Vader and Anakin were seperate people when I was younger. Like Vader tries to believe himself. But ever since I began to read comics, watch the Clone Wars and Rebels and read the novels. I see them as 1 character. Vader's movements, way of talking etc were all included in Anakin's character in the other sources of Star Wars. It really helped me believe they were the same character. Vader was always in Anakin and Anakin was always in Vader.
Codic
Wtf dude thats some poster worthy art
@@baccaismemebob2603 Thank you mean a lot! I'm definitely interrested in making some posters, this is just something like a hobby I do outside of school and UA-cam :)
If you've actually read the comics and watched TCW and Rebels, you'd know they were not the same person.
@@thewarner2139 You don't get what I meant. Of course they are the same person. But they acted so different from each other, that in my mind, Darth Vader is just an entire different character than Anakin
@@Codicc Typo on my part. They were not the same person and that has been repeatedly shown in the lore.
They're the same coin but two different sides of it.
Exactly I had a similar answer to it but I put it differently saying that Anakin is his light side name and vader is his dark side name and they are just names in the end of the day and also committing acts of good or bad don’t define if someone is good or bad but yes he’s the same exact individual life form in a human body either way and has the same personality either way the one and only difference is that anakin is his light side and vader is his dark side
Both sides make him who he is as anakin and vader thus makes him who he is as himself whether he’s anakin or vader but no matter which one he goes by he’s anakin and vader at the same time either way because both sides make him who he is and that’s how he was born and created palpatine/sidious gave him both his birth names and about what which name anakin/vader goes by they are just as coping mechanisms to me and coping mechanisms of him battling inside himself to see which of his sides win most of the time and which one he prefers to me and go by and it’s hard for me to say which of his sides win the most I mean I would say it’s his dark side in the end of the day but idk for sure I mean as I said before he is Anakin and Vader at the exact same time and moments always battling inside himself like him as Anakin is also him as Vader and him as Vader is also him as Anakin
When "Vader" calls Luke his son in RotJ, it's not Vader; it's Anakin coming through.
@Dahlen Olson Same to ya
The irony is that the knowledge helped Luke to survive on the Dead Stat 2 was Vader's knowlege but with Anakin's love and self-sacrifice.
this stuff could get deep. glad someone understands it
Same person. Anger, hatred, bitterness and incredible disappointment and disillusionment can change a person drastically in my view. If everything you believe in about the world and yourself turns out to be a lie, it can only turn into a mental breakdown and a change in behavioural and psychological patterns. That is what I have seen in some of the people I worked with in my home country.
Just my opinion.
Anakin was a Jedi that turned to the dark side. Palpatine named him Vader out of tradition (before he put on the mask). It was the same person responsible for good and evil. His story is not about schizophrenia,, it's about the consequences of poor decisions born out of fear.
They are separate personalities in the same body. This is confirmed in the current lore.
"Current lore"? Do you mean 'arbitrarily made up by some so called story writer'? Cos George Lucas was pretty clear on the concept of the light and dark side.
Anakin does not have a mental disorder. The dark side is not a brain disease. It is greed, selfishness, desire. It's the things we do and the choices we make that serve no one but ourselves. Darth Vader knows he is Anakin Skywalker but chooses to deny it, ignore it, and try to forget because he knows there is no redemption for what he has done. He cannot go back.
THANK YOU! An intelligent comment. Anyone who thinks Anakin and Darth Vader are LITERALLY two different people or characters, not just symbolically or from a certain POV, is outright stupid.
@@gnc623 Except the facts are on my side and the truth doesn't give two s hit s about your feelings.
@@GREENIE-5000 Props for showing the world your profound ignorance on all things canon. Luckily your personal opinion on the story is irrelevant. The source material says I'm right and you have nothing in the way of a legitimate counter; that isn't pulled straight from your a s s. Even better? Lucas himself made them different entities when RotJ was edited to include young Anakin. Then again in TCW when Anakin and Padme talk about the other person inside Anakin when he loses control. Best you educate yourself on the lore before mouthing on a subject you know nothing about.
Damn I was waiting for this one, I agree with a lot of the comments.. but that moment with Ahosoka vs Vader in Rebels really answered the question for me.. after Ahsoka hit Vader in the mask, Matt Lanters voice came up when he said “ahosoka” as they stared down at eachother, it switched back to James Earls voice... this made me agree with the comment on 9:35
Well, it's ok for you to be wrong because they are the same person.
Luke told Vader he sensed there was still good in him. He didn't say he sensed another person in him.
I like to think that Vader was a phase of Anakin, a persona he took after having lost everything.
I have always believed that yes, they are the same person. This is the realization that Luke has that allows him to save his Father. Obi-Wan (and Vader) believed that Vader had destroyed the man that had been Anakin. Yet it's Anakin's pain and suffering that drove Vader's power, it's the fact that he is still Anakin that allows him to be so powerful as Vader and ultimately what allows him to reject the mantle of Vader.
It greatly depends on your point of view...
I understand what it is like to hate who you used to be. Do any of you?
Yeah I adopted a nickname basically throughout all of my childhood, but once I hit 16 I began to hate the person I was as a kid after seeing how many mistakes I made.
So I'm now known by my real name and consider that kid an entirely separate person. Even talking about it in the third person as a coping mechanism.
I believe he is one in the same. Anakin saw no other option then join the dark side once he realized he has been duped by Papatine and he had no other friends.
He was given a choice between his mentor who was always nice to him and offered to save his wife, or his dickhead employers who don't give him credit and make him spy on his friends. He had to make a choice and, because the head of state was a fanatical sadistic cultist, he had to commit to whichever side he took. The Jedi were literally staging a coup.
He got to the point where his only imagined option was violence. Regret working for Palpatine? You tell Padme that you'll kill him. Your wife accidentally brings an assassin to kill you? Choke her.
Obi-Wan royally fucked up by playing into this. He forced Anakin to pick between continuing to be Darth Vader, or dying then and there. Luke would've tried to talk him down, or refused to fight him altogether. Luke showed him that one person still loved him.
Topics like this are how art is truly subjective, that's how it works for movies, it's not a matter of if it's just good or bad, people's taste isn't the debate where art is subjective, so thank you Thor for having discussions about Star Wars in the true perspective of art being subjective, a lot of people nowadays don't talk about topics like this one and forgot how to talk about the subjectivity of art
Beautifully said and that is one of my favorite parts about his "Let's Talk Some Star Wars" segments
@@LDub01031994 me too
Good point and I love how Thor’s videos are about hearing what different people or different Star Wars fans have to say and about hearing all kinds of opinions and beliefs and discussing them in his video that’s what I love about this Star Wars channel
George did give stylistic credence towards the Dark Side possessing people by revealing his eyes to turn yellow on Mustafar
For me Anakin Skywalker /Darth Vader is a tragic hero who became evil not to rule but to save the people who carre and love. He done terrible things because when he lost evrything and evryone, have nothing but only rage, safering and vengeance. He is my favorite character from Star Wars because he saw me even the good guys could became bad guys and do terrible things if they're world ( evrything where they carre, the people who they love ) threatend. Also if you ask me who is responsible for his fall in to the dark side, I'll tell you is Darth Sidious 30 % and 70 % the Jedi Order.
Agreed and also agreed that the Jedi are more responsible than sidious and vader had a fiery burning passionate hatred for the Jedi that kept him alive and would hunt down and destroy every remaining Jedi there is due to how they made him feel but it’s at the end when he lets go of his hatred for the Jedi and his hate in general which leads to his death I mean he hated sidious but he hated the Jedi a lot more but once he kills sidious fulfilling the rule of two he lets go of his hate and dies
2:47 thanks for sharing my two drawings!
I really like the Hindu poem, which explains very well how Anakin and Darth Vader are both the same person and also different. The poem goes like this:
I sent my soul into the eternities some vision of that afterlife to spell. And by and by my soul returns to me and said I am heaven and I am hell.
We are all both. We have both inside us. Darkness and Light. In each day we choose which one we will be more like. Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader both resided in Anakin, and he chose which one would be in charge. After he was completely broken and there was nothing left.
Dude this has been the best comment answer episode. Sooo good. Loved every answer and when you take it seriously it’s a complicated question. Well done, Boss.
I've heard that George Lucas considers them to be different characters. The way I see it, Darth Vader is a persona that took over Anakin and the latter desperately wants to return to the light but his hatred for Palpatine is what allows Darth Vader to remain in control while Anakin is buried deep within. We also see in both Episodes V and VI that love is what allowed Anakin to resurface and ultimately allowed him to let go of his hate and vanquish both Darth Vader and Palpatine.
That's an interesting take. I always saw Vader as both a persona and embodiment of Anakin's darkness and depression following the Clone Wars. The good in Anakin was overshadowed by a narrative that Anakin died on Mustafar and that only Vader was left. Couple that with his hatred for Palpatine, the Jedi, and his own hatred of himself and he buried Anakin out of guilt, hatred, and depression. I think he was struggling to accept his actions and live with himself so he subscribed to the belief that Anakin was dead to distance himself from his pain.
@@grawman67 Anakin was never depressed during the clone wars. The clone wars was when things were finally starting to go right for Anakin (from his perspective at least). It gave him more opportunities to prove himself, he was respected and hailed as a hero by the people of Coruscant, it allowed him to improve his powers and skills and the war allowed him and Obi-Wan to bond. The clone wars mostly just affected Anakin by boosting his ego and his thirst for more power.
However, I think Anakin was still somewhat in control after the Mustafar duel because in the scene where he's being encased in the armor, we can hear him faintly calling out to Padmé and he's still concerned about her safety. Which made Palpatine realize that love was the last spark of humanity in him and so he lied to him about having killed Padmé, which threw Anakin into the pit of despair (embodied by Darth Vader) and he remained there until he found out that his family hadn't died completely. But he hated Palpatine too much to pull himself back to the light.
@@vetarlittorf1807 I meant he was depressed following the Clone Wars. Not during. My bad. I definitely agree he had that spark of control and humanity left until he was told about Padme on the operating table.
One person can have multiple personas, like how someone can be a servant to one person, a father to another, and a spouse to yet another. I tend to think of the Sith as a cult and Vader just needed deprogramming. Or maybe Luke force-audited Vader and got rid of his thetans or something.
When did Lucas say that? Because there are some big differences between 1970's/early 80's george Lucas and the man who brought us the prequels and spent years and millions of dollars ruining his own classics with after-the-fact editing changes no one wanted.
Maybe they are not the same man...🤣
Having them as two different entities could make Vader more interesting, but I'm not sure I like it. It introduces a lot of complication and questions, and Star Wars at its core is a very simple story.
But at any rate, this turned out to be a fascinating discussion.
This video actually changed my mind.
Not to go off topic but I like that comment about the force cleansing itself through Anakin.
4:25 that’s my art! Thanks for putting it in the video, I really appreciate it
You're very welcome. Thanks for sending it in.
Thor Skywalker could I send in more? I have another one that’s really cool.
KingGamer06 nice art, looks great!
MiniLego Productions thanks
9:18 actually Quinlan Vos also turned to the dark side at some point and even murdered a couple of Jedi but he was forgiven
Dude, literally everybody who knows Anakin is Vader has an incentive to deny it, apart from Luke, who was the only dude that had his head on his shoulders. I don't care what anyone in the SW universe says about Anakin/Vader.
It's either Obi-Wan/Ashoka(/Yoda?) that wanted to disassociate themselves from him to rid them of guilt, Vader himself who wanted to rid himself of Anakin's baggage and legacy, or Palpatine who wanted to cement his control over Vader.
And in the end Obi-Wan and Yoda died as hermits and Palpatine was killed by Anakin and Anakin came back to the light side. And the only dude who legitimately won is Luke, because he knew what's going on. He was the only one who believed that Anakin and Vader are the same and it payed out.
All 100% facts
Also, trying to kill Anakin on Mustafar was a bone boneheaded moved. Obi-Wan did nothing but strengthen the belief that there could be no redemption for Anakin.
I think Anakin's story is kinda like the Shadow of Jung's theory. Both personalyties are part of a whole, but both are in odds with one another, The Shadow being the dominant one
Whoa I feel like it's been a month, or two since I watched this channel. Good to be back.
The 2003 Clone Wars Anakin is absolutely Vader to me. He was the perfect hybrid of the films' Anakin combined with Vader's actual mannerisms. The Hayden Christensen Anakin, had its moments but for me he didn't perfectly hit the mark. Hayden didn't exude the same confidence Vader did, even after he had given himself to the Dark Side. Hayden almost seemed intimidated acting alongside Ian McDiarmid's Palpatine, and I believe Hayden even admitted as much.
Great video. How about a poll on how people feel about the Inhibitor Chips forcing the Clones to commit Order 66, whether it was a good or bad idea. Because I've seen in many forms and comment sections, including on your Top 5 Reasons why The Clone Wars is some of the best Star Wars ever, how people debate over it, some like it and think it makes perfect sense, some don't and prefer the Legends explanation, and some are in the middle, It truly is, in my mind, an interesting topic of debate and one a lot of fans have a lot of different views on it.
I see Vader as an alternative persona that was born when Anakin committed all those evil acts. Like a disassociation disorder where the mind fragments to cope with the harsh reality. It is only when Vader meets Luke that the conflicting personalities clash and Anakin reemerges.
Great video Thor! Your channel is one of the best I've come across in a while. The Fanfictions are wonderful to binge watch/listen to as well. Keep up the awesome work!
The question reminded of this quote “The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either -- but right through every human heart -- and through all human hearts. ... And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained. Alexander Solzhenitsyn”
I think they are the same but I understand why you would think they aren't. Anakins tragic fall to the dark side which culminated in him no longer being Anakin was what obi wan thought. However luke shows us that he still was Anakin skywalker whether or not he wanted to be. When vader tells luke he was right I believe that's the moment he shows us hes always been Anakin Skywalker just behind a mask.
Vader is Anakin under the rule and tyranny of evil.
Would’ve been interesting to see Luke or even Kylo grapple between the dark and light more prominently than what we saw in Disney’s trilogy.
I don’t think we’ll ever have a character as complex as Anakin/Vader in the franchise again.
Anakin: _I am the chosen one._
Vader: *Me too.*
Anakin: _I am one of the strongest jedi who ever lived!_
Vader: *Same sh*t, pal.*
Anakin: _Alright... I don't like sand..._
Vader: *...It's coarse, and rough, and irritating, and it gets everywhere.*
Anakin: _Ok, then... I trained cute togruta girl as my apprentice, while you trained..._
Vader: *You, son of a...*
Anakin: _Gotcha!_
Vader: *You know I have the answer, but I can't say it, because they took him from me!*
I would love and adore to see such extremelly long video!
I personally believe Anakin and Vader to be the same. Yes, the force does influence individuals in certain ways that we can't possibly begin to understand but, it was ultimately Anakin's choice to go with Qui Gon and Obi Wan. It was ultimately Anakin's choice to skirt the rules in AOTC by pursuing Padme and going so far as to get married. And just as Anakin, when still loyal to the light side, ultimately had a choice. The same can be said for Darth Vader whom, is a fallen Anakin but, ultimately has a choice to save his son or let Luke die in Return of the Jedi.
I really hate ghost likes. You either like it or you don't.
I like the idea of Anakin possibly forming some sort of DID after his defeat on mustafar but we must remember it was Anakin who made the choice to stop Windu from killing palpatine this was before he became Darth Vader. Another great point was that Anakin always had anger in him. I think that point is supported by the fact he was born into slavery and had a hatred toward slavers(which is completely justified) but there was always something there that made him feel lesser than. I’ve always seen the darkside as being a addictive way to power more like a mindset. A Jedi knight trained in the force I feel would still have sense to make choice in there actions. Anakin was at the point where he could have made the choice to leave it all behind and run away with padme but he had the option to keep using the darkside and pursue power. He made his choice. Once he is imprisoned in his suit he chooses to cast away his name in place of his new Sith title and persona as many of the comments explained. Just some of my thoughts great video
I heard one of the plans for "Force Awakens" was to feature Anakin's Force Ghost...to be partially shrouded in darkness and visible mechanical bits, something that would imply not only is Darth Vader still very much a part of Anakin in death as Anakin was a part of Darth Vader in life.
I personally view Anakin and Vader being somewhat the same but also separate, each vying for control. Vader always existed inside of Anakin: he was the hate, the anger, the fear and the desire for power that Anakin felt. It came out when he killed the Tusken Raiders, when he killed Dooku, and numerous other times during the Clone Wars. But Vader only took control when Anakin did something truly monstrous by betraying and attacking Windu. Anakin was able to start to come back when Luke refused to join him, as is evident when Luke and Co. escaped Bespin: Piett was certain he was going to die just like Ozzel for failing Vader, but Vader simply gives one last look out the window and walks past. It was sadness. That is not to excuse anything that Anakin did as Vader, since they are still the same person. It is much like when someone goes into a violent rage: if you kill someone, you are still responsible, but it can often feel like someone else is in control.
I like to compare this to another Sci-fi character that has a similar occurrence: Kerrigan from Starcraft. Kerrigan and the Queen of Blades are both the same yet different, like Anakin and Vader. The Queen of Blades always existed inside of Kerrigan, cultivated by the years of experimentation by the Confederacy. The hatred, the rage and the desire to be powerful were all inside of Kerrigan, but it was when she was infested that it all came out. Sarah Kerrigan was suppressed, and the Queen of Blades was unleashed. Kerrigan is still very much responsible for what she did, but as the Queen of Blades she finally had the power that she had wanted: no longer a helpless child at the mercy (or lack thereof) of the Confederate Scientists or of the traitorous Mengsk. She was "Queen B***ch of the Universe" as she put it, and reveled in it. She was, in every respect, invincible. But Sarah Kerrigan saw the carnage that the Queen of Blades unleashed and was horrified at it, but couldn't seem to get free. I feel the infestation process naturally enhanced the darker, more feral side of Kerrigan, making harder for Sarah to get control. However, in Starcraft 2, as the Queen of Blades is launching an all out assault on Raynor's forces to destroy the Xel'Naga artifact, Raynor hears the voice of Sarah saying "Jim, don't give up" right before the Artifact activates. When (mostly) deinfested, Sarah reverts to being how she was in Starcraft, but with some hold overs as the Queen of Blades, especially in relation to the Zerg. When Raynor is kidnapped and claimed dead, Kerrigan reverts the deinfestation, albeit with a slightly different process, free of the Swarm's influence, which seems to allow Sarah to maintain more control. This I could see as something that could happen had Anakin lived after RotJ, where at a difficult moment, he could lapse into being Vader again and give in to those tendencies. This is very evident when Kerrigan frees Raynor: she claims that she had to, being kind and remorseful with Raynor while just moments ago being vicious to the guards. To Raynor, all he sees is that she has reverted back to being the same monster that murdered Fenix and ravaged entire worlds, which of course he brings up. Kerrigan then shows the dichotomy between her two sides: "You swore one day you would kill the Queen of Blades. You were the only one who believed in me (Sarah)". All in all a very interesting look at both characters. Arthas would be interesting to explore, but that is a whole other story.
8:18 I had that exact superhero squad action figure when I was a kid. It was for Bucky I think
Darth Vader hates himself because of his past so does his best to try and discard anakin until he finds about about Luke his only anchor to his former life as anakin
Follow the path to the Dark side.
Fear leads to Anger
Anger leads to Hate
Hate leads to Suffering
Now imagine those are the lenses you see the galaxy in you are angry and hate everything because you are afraid and suffering Darth Vader is very much the wounded animal Anakin Skywalker.
Or as another friend put it Darth Vader is Anakin looking back from the other side of the dark looking glass.
Anakin is the man in the the mask. Vader is the mask. This both physically and spiritually.
2:46 He does that exactly, actually. When Ahsoka confronts him in Rebels (which is cannon).
Truce Truce yeah, that’s what I was thinking, while watching
I think that Anakin and Vader are almost completely the same person, I find their situation very similar to Jekyll and Hyde, Hyde is not a separate character, he is merely a physical form Jekyll’s impulses and dark desires , it is left ambiguous as to their exact relationship but it is implied that Jekyll knows what he is doing when he is Hyde.
When Darth Vader was corrupted by the dark side he became an entity similar to Hyde perhaps even less separate from Anakin. We know he recognises Obi Wan etc so he remembers Anakin’s life much like Hyde remembers Jekyll’s but the most important difference is that Hyde was split from Jekyll using gothic be afraid of science chemistry, but Darth Vader, though acting on his malevolent impulses is still Anakin. If the dark side was not a factor I would say with certainty they were the same person however the dark side is an unknown, it may well have a corrupting effect on the mind which causes a small degree of separation between the two, but not enough that they aren’t the same character.
Great video!!! Great fan art!!!
Personally, I feel like Vader is all of Anakin’s insecurities, anger and hatred, sprung into terrible being. The Dark Side is just being channeled into him. They’re two split personalities in one body, and I feel like the personality not in charge is just watching from the backseat, which explains why Anakin wanted to atone in the end. And that’s why Anakin remained by Palps. He had nothing. He even physically lost everything - his limbs, his lungs, his family, the order that raised him (as toxic as that relationship was), and his older brother. Palpating and the Dark Side was all he had left
Very well said
How was your day today, Thor Skywalker?
Pretty good, how are you?
Thor Skywalker Good. I’m guessing you’ve been running out of Star Wars shit to talk about since the sequel trilogy ended?
Actually, no. Kinda the opposite. It's going to allow me the chance to make videos that I've been meaning to do for a long time.
Thor Skywalker Cool. I like your videos, they are awesome, but not nearly as much as EvanNova95. Ever heard of him?
Obiwan didn’t fail. The society in which they served failed them.
How did the society fail them? To me, the rise of Palpatine is a direct consequence of the Jedi's failure. They couldn't even sense an extremely powerful Sith living and working just down the street.
We live in a society!
Star Wars is the story of Anakin and Obiwan, Luke and Leia. It's about their struggles and choices, not about their society.
@@mr.safensound4238 pretty sure you're thinking of the matrix lol of course the story has to do with the world or galaxy in which they live...they talk about politics, religions, oppression and freedoms. Their choice to fight the empire and take back their society is pretty important i think to the story. lol also the society did fail the jedi because they were turned into solders when their place in society was being a keeper of the the peace...pretty sure thats why Aniken fell, because the society in which they served made them a hypocritical institution. "hes to dangerous to be left alive"...said by the chancilor and the head of the jedi order. whats the difference if the enemy and the order in which you serve start saying the same things. obiwan taught him to be a jedi and not a solder. Society had allowed corruption and the a civil war...i mean come on they had senators debating trade disputes and elections....
@@darthsensei3838 by 'society' do you mean the 'Republic'? Since the Jedi are totally separate from the society, being a reclusive monastic order. They don't encourage any attachments or influences from the 'society'.
The Jedi did choose to support the Government of the Republic, but we see how these senators DO NOT truly represent the 'society'. Nute Gunray, Count Dooku and Palpatine all had their own selfish motivations.
The Jedi Council made a bad decision, they were clearly wrong to directly start fighting in the Clone Wars. They wanted to protect the 'Republic' to avoid losing their own position of power. But this was their choice NOT the 'society's'.
Qui-Gon Jinn showed us how the true Jedi should deal with politics and wars:
"I can only protect you, I cannot fight a war for you."
Great video. Great Comments. Great discussions. This is the Star Wars community at it's best.
I disagree with a comment near the beginning that said that balance of the Force means the extinction of Jedi and Sith together.
Both the Sith and the Jedi are moral absolutists and yes the universe would be better off without either of them.
There is no conflict!
You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before and I don't believe you'll destroy me now.
@@thorskywalker You underestimate the power of the Dark Side. If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny.
@@yourstruly4817 I know there is good in you. The emperor didn't destroy it in you fully.
@@Orto-jj2di IT IS TOO LATE FOR ME, SON...THE EMPEROR WILL SHOW YOU THE TRUE NATURE OF THE FORCE. HE...IS YOUR MASTER NOW.
@@RicardoAGuitar Then my father Anakin is trully dead.
Well it's not a suggestion for a poll but rather a discussion/fafic a small change in how events play, "What if Anakin left Jedi order before Clone Wars and decided to stay with Padme on Nabu" like this could be a very interesting change in how events would play, and really would like to hear your take on this idea
8:00 I mean, Anakin, or at that point Darth Vader, was tearing up after he slaughtered the Separatist leaders, he knew he was doing wrong. That confirms him as a villain. Doesn't matter what he is wearing, he's still a bad person.
Me, 10, 20, 30 years ago, I would be a complete different person than today, no dark side required. To claim Anakin is a different person is either disingenuous or simply inexperienced with life.
I think that you once said that the Dark Side can be seen as similar to a drug. In that way, I can absolutely see Vader as being sort of smashed out of his mind, doing and saying things he would NEVER do sober, aka Anakin. The influence of the drug certainly plays a role, but it's not the end all for responsibility or consequence.
Even though it’s too late... let’s get weird:
To me, vader is a realized embodiment of Anikan’s shadow aspects. Aspects that he spent a lifetime suppressing and denying, as per the Jedi dictums... Doing so, makes these aspects all the more powerful and autonomous on an unconscious level. Once tipped passed the breaking point or willful transformation, this can be a liberation of sorts for these aspects to finally “come to life” and unless consciously integrated, they will “take over”. And, in Vader’s case, continuously war within one’s “self” against previously embodied “light” aspects.
Amplify that with the power of “the dark side” (or the perceived experience of it) and the subsequent effect this may have on the psyche and... voila’.
“Vader betrayed and murdered your father... from a certain point of view.”
Sith when anointed are possessed by their sith energy, hence glowing eyes. Hence its both anakin and vader together
The Dark side to me, is like a really strong drug that gives you a boost, but the thing is... it's REALLY ADDICTING and destroys your body (eyes changing color, skin getting pale) you might use it once in a while and you'll be ok (like Luke using ''force choke'' for example) but the more you use it, the more you need it, and it turns you into an addict, the dark side makes you feel powerful and you devellop an hunger for power and when you can't have this power, you become tense, angry, impatient. even in rebels when Ezra used the dark side in the first season it made him feel cold and weird after using it.
But the sequel trilogy ruined this for me, Kylo Ren should be FULLY CORRUPTED by the dark side with yellow eyes and everything, he throws tantrum and scream like a child, he kills people left and right, even is own father... but he still struggle with the light... I don't get it !? in Star Wars the dark side of the force was always this dangerous power that corrupts your mind, it's the easy path to power... but now for some reason it's not.
I think in the light of the newer films (episodes 7-9) with essence transfer it's more like a possession of a type. A Sith spirit somehow begins to take over once you start dabbling in the hatred.
That would ignore the Clone Wars, Anakin turn to the dark side by his own free will, because he actually began to believe the bullshit that Palpatine was saying, that the galaxy needed a wise and kind leader to made the decisions for everyone regardless of the democratic process, and feed into Anakin insecurities and thirst for power.
I voted that they are the same but some grey...the grey is how Vader wanted to seperate himself from Anakin.
I draw an analogy to while drink driving one causing death;
Ultimately, the individual chooses to drink and drive that you didn't expect or anticipate the extent of the consequences is of little probative value. The individual makes the initial choice and is responsible for all that follows.
One is a consequence of the others' choices.
How about a poll for favorite EU Jedi/Sith/Other. I'm still upset by KK's comments suggesting there wasn't any source material when characters like Darth Caedus and Abeloth exist.
There’s a big difference between source material (Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter Marvel comics, etc.) and a series of books based on the universe of a movie series. Making a movie based on a book spun-off from that exact same movie series has never been attempted before and it’s understandable that they didn’t want to go down that route. Also, there are too many fan-favourite EU characters to narrow them down for a poll.
@@ajzeg01 I understand, thats why I mentioned Darth Caedus who is essentially Kylo Ren before Kylo Ren. They had plenty of Skywalker stories to pull from but ignored all of it.
Edit* Sorry I also forgot to mention his twin sister Jaina Solo is someone they could have used instead Rey.
I agree with you and the other commenters about the influence of the Dark Side on Vader. It really does seem to be an almost uncontrollable force like a drug that amplifies certain parts of a person's personality and suppresses others. But you still have to let it in, and as we saw it was still possible for Vader to resist the Dark Side even after years of letting it run wild within him. The Dark Side doesn't completely possess you like a demon, but seems to be more like a really bad habit.
And that makes me wonder how the Light Side might alter someone's personality. We see Luke change quite a bit as he becomes a Jedi, but it's hard to say how much of his character development comes from leaving home and growing up, and how much of it may be the influence of the Force on his personality. Rey doesn't seem to change much. And with earlier actual padawans like Ahsoka it's really hard to know what they would have been like without the teachings of the Jedi temple to guide them.
As for Vader... Yes, Vader and Anakin are the same person. I mean, of course they are, they have to be. But the events of Revenge of The Sith completely destroyed Anakin. They put him under so much stress that he suffered a kind of ego death, or as Wikipedia puts it, a "complete loss of subjective self-identity." Under normal circumstances this might have left Anakin in a kind of dissociative state where he'd just lay in bed and stare at the walls, maybe replaying the duel with Obi-Wan and choking Padme in his head, over and over. But the events of the movie were carefully orchestrated by Palaptine to produce exactly this effect in Anakin. Once Palpatine had the Jedi broken down he remade Anakin into Vader by giving him a choice: suffer horribly for the rest of your life, _or_ become my apprentice and let me show you how to be greater than you ever imagined. So Vader is functionally a different person because he's a creation of Palaptine. Anakin is still in there, but his personality is so distorted he thinks of himself as Vader and Anakin as dead.
One person, two minds
Very well said
I think they are the same. When Anakin turned himself to Sidious, he still was kind of Anakin, did all the dark side stuff, welcomed Padme and stuff like that. He still was Anakin but now out of control. And Vader remembers what Anakin did. I don't think it's a situation with Bruce Banner and the Hulk where each of them is fighting over the control of the body.
Same body, different personalities
Lets retcon the entirety of TROS as Poe's nightmare, and then let Colin Trevorrow make his version of episode 9
I always felt like Vader and Anakin were two different people but after watching you're video I see that it is much more complicated then that and there is a lot of gray area.
The difference is in my opinion, that Anakin made a few mistakes where he used his anger and let that control him. Palpatine was using this and sort of brainwashing him to become one with his darker self and that led him to the dark side.
This sort of happens in our world, you can brainwash people to do evil things and make them believe it's for the greater good. The big difference is that in our favorit galaxy far far away, you at the same time gets new dark force powers that can make you strong and they can be hard to resist.
This really shouldn't be a debate. In the original DVD release of episode 3, there is a special feature called the Chosen One where George Lucas says using the dark side is a positive feedback loop that turns you into another person, so Vader and Anikan are different. Lucas also said this is why he replaced old Anikan with young Anikan for the force ghost in episode 6, when he came back to the light he was not Vader anymore but was Anikan again
I like to believe that Anakin was the Jedi we saw from ATOC through til the climax of ROTS. We see Vader briefly come through the cracks here and there until he fully took shape after join Sidious.
And for the next 20 years, Vader was the only identity that existed until meeting Luke triggered that pull that brought Anakin back to the light.
Funny enough I voted "different people but grey area" but considering the insanely thoughtful comments in the video and in this thread it has changed my opinion to "it's far more complicated" because fundamentally what we are debating here is the core question of "what is identity?" and yeah no clear-cut answer to that one haha
This is an excellent question and whether you're asking George Lucas Jr himself or a vibrant generation of SW fans, the answers truly are quite simple yet vast in truly pondering and explaining the magnitude and great Foundation of this journey!) The face of the dark side and iconic is Vader, while one of the three or four or more of the Light side is Ani!) A great idea that we all should Express more especially with the great novel and work of true literature respecting and cherishing 🌟 Wars not too far away is that of Rey & Kylo being living legacies for him!
Dave seid that when Ashoka got Vader in the face that it was a moment of clarity for Anakin wakeing and seeing Ashoka he then calls her name twice but seeing her at that moment made Anakin retreat back into his mind due to the quilt and seeing a person who reminds him of his failure and at that point Vader took back over saying then you die sure sounds like the protege of George Lucas is saying they are two separate personalities and u can find the video of Dave saying this on UA-cam
The definition of character is more subjective and I would say they are 2 different characters of the SAME person. That simplifies it.
I am somewhat surprised no one brought up the drug analogy. Yes, Anakin is Vader--but it's like when people we know (and possibly love) get addicted to drugs/alcohol/food...whatever controls them. Still the same person, but the drug (Dark Side) dictates what they do rather than themselves.
Like when you hear people say, "I was a different person back then,"
The Dark Side is like a powerful drug. Anakin and Vader are the same person, but one is with the drug flowing heavily through their veins.
In the Dark Side's case it doesn't just take control of the physical; it dominates the heart, mind and soul, making it far more powerful than any drug in existence.
A great story in a “ If Darth Vader lives “ after Return or the Jedi, I would like to see something along those lines... some “ what if’s” type Star Wars movies might be a way to salvage the whole franchise, familiar character’s set in the Star Wars universe but with no “ pressure “ of the whole skywalker saga hanging over the movies, it’s time to take it to the next level! If the Last Jedi was a “ what if “ movie and not a link to the actual saga, we could pretend that movie doesn’t wreck a movie franchise
The what if scenario of if Anakin survived the events of Return of the Jedi reminds me of Cynder from the Legend of Spyro trilogy. The differences between Anakin and Cynder are numerous. However, a similar character arc emerges that the two share. Both were manipulated by a great evil to bring that evil to power. Cynder gets raised as Malefor’s general and becomes the Terror of the Skies and is freed from his influence thanks to Spyro. Later on in the story, Cynder falls once more under Malefor’s control only to be freed by Spyro, of whom she developed romantic feelings for, and helps defeat Malefor. Meanwhile, Anakin gets manipulated by Palpatine to become Darth Vader so the Sith would rise to rule the Galaxy for a couple decades and thanks to his feelings for his son, Luke, that he was freed from his mental prison of Darth Vader to defeat Sidious and fulfill the prophecy of the Chosen One (though thanks to the existence of The Last Jedi, J. J. Abrams had to bring Palpatine back from the grave for the Rise of Skywalker, the prophecy was deemed null and void).
Inseriously dislike the concept, that the Dark Side corrupts people like Anakin, and makes theme do with little free will. It takes away the responsibility and complexity of the character. Everyone of us hase the „dark side“ in us and every seemingly normal person isn‘t to far away from commitng atrocious acts like Anakin did. (look no further than the Germans in the 3. Reich). A Person isn‘t inheritly evil nor good.
Of course we push away responsibility and say it was the dark side or Darth Vader that did these things. We can use drugs (or the dark side for that matter) to try forget the pain and lose ourselves in self pity.
Or we make a decision. Choose the dark side or the light. Its both a part of us, and we have the power make the choice. Like Anakin/Darth Vader did in the End.
*get selfish you get stuff, or you want stuff, and when you want stuff and you get stuff then you are afraid somebody is going to take it away from you ... once you become afraid that somebody's going to take it away from you or you're gonna lose it, then you start to become angry, especially if you're losing it, and that anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering."* ~ George Lucas, 2010, while working on the Mortis Arc.
Obi Wan says they are separate people because he and Yoda don’t want to disclose the truth just yet. Yoda even says it on his deathbed. “Not ready for the burden were you”. I love these videos and comments, but there is always another perspective to each and every one
So if you're on the light side, you're one person. If you're on the dark side you're another. What about force insensitives (or untrained force sensitives)? Are they half one person and half another? If little Annie (ugh!) was never trained then would he be Darth Skywalker or Anakin Vader or even a third, separate person? Just like the Wookies living on Endor, it does not make sense!
I like the idea of Vader and Anakin being "different" beings, specially considering Anakin was the chosen one and was as strong in the force as he was
I sometimes think about what I would have done different with the sequel trilogy, like, you know, both Rey and Finn being jedi, but Finn's story is about freeing the Stormtroopers and fighting Phasma while Rey and Luke have to defeat Kylo and Snoke, also *NO KYLO REDEMPTION*
And in my opinion it would have been *WAY* more interesting if Vader's and Anakin's "essence" had "split" or of he could "drain" Anakin's so Vader could actually manifest as a sith ghost (as in legends) and be *COMPLETELY* devoid of Anakin's thoughts, being truly just a force of darkness and Kylo's master, instructing him to "Finish what he had started", wich would include continuing the rule of two and killing his master, since Vader is already dead tho, Snoke would be the perfect replacement, Snoke would just some wannabe Palpatine who took Kylo believing he actually had any control over him, with Snoke being a former imperial guard like in the Crimson Empire comic or some inquisitor that lived long enough and avoided being killed once they were no longer neccesary, returning to claim the empire as his own
I like the split personality idea.
Anakin was a Jedi who was constantly troubled by the whispers of the dark side. When Mace Windu was killed and Anakin Skywalker fell the dark side started to co-pilot with Anakin, essentially becoming a new person in Vader. Thinking of it less as Anakin and Vader being two different people and instead "Vader" essentially being the unification of two voices makes the most sense in my mind
After watching game of throne I noticed similarities between Theon Greyjoy and Anakin.
Theon gets captured and tortured by Ramsay...becoming Reek, the name given to him by Ramsay, and when Sansa attempts to free him and calls him his real name (Theon). He feels so trapped by Ramsay and so manipulated that he doesn't want to leave and insists that his name is Reek.
Similarly, Vader becomes Sidious's apprentice and becomes slave to him... Sidious gives him the name Vader. and overtime becomes he becomes slave to Sidious, knowing that he cannot escape. aAgain and again he rejects the name Anakin Skywalker, stating that name means nothing to me, and when Luke tries to free him from the emperors grasp. He says it is to late for me. and it to fearful and somewhat loyal to the emperor... until eventually he is redeemed