I'm going to give Arturia a little love here. This emulation is nearly dead spot on with a 5% difference at the most. The original has a little more presence and the low end has slightly more definition and clarity. However, many of us will never have the chance to own this original and glorious instrument...and there is always the question of reliability. At a fraction of the price, I am stunned how close this gets. Without a video, there is probably only a handful of people that would guess correctly. And in a mix, even less so. It's truly wonderful that the rest of us will have a chance to utilize the magical sound of this synth without having to remortgage a home to do it.
+Dennis Mcveigh I agree and I would add this: Even if there's a tiny difference, we have to keep in mind that there was already tiny differences between two similar analog synths. And it does mean that one is "better" than the other... just slightly different. That's the same thing with all analog/electronic devices (mics, preamps, outboard gears, synths, etc...). Most of the time, on a recorded track, adding some slightly tiny EQ corrections would be enough... to a point virtually no one could actually really figure it out in a real ABX blind-test what is the original instruments and what is the copy. So why to bother to buy something that could be fragile with no support, that is heavy and expensive when we can just use a virtual plugin we can carry with us everywhere in our computer :) I know, all plugins are not reaching their full potential yet, but it's just a matter of time before any analog instruments could be perfectly reproduced (99.99% close to the original used as reference).
+D. MC Hook up a real high end DAC like Prism or Lynx, and the difference is gone. Even sounds better than the original. I can tell since I've owned a real M12. What drives best, a 20 year old car, or a brand new one...?
James Reeno Not at all since all plugins are now 64 bits and we won't have 128 bits OS anytime soon (if it even ever happen). And there's also plenty of wrapper that allow you to use your old plugins, and you can still run old hardware for your old plugin. You can still have computers running Win98 today if you want, and it will be way easier to ever found any parts for it on ebay since it will use computer parts that was sold by millions, while dedicated keyboards use proprietary parts we can't find anyway. I have hard expander I can't get fixed because the company is gone and nobody have any part for it (old GEM S2/R). While in the other hand, I can still find some old Asus Pentium IV motherboard to run Win98 if I would still use my old plugins from 1999/2000... even thought I do have updates of them that run on my last computer (even though it's now a Mac, so a completely different OS). Digital hardware is not any better than computers, it's actually worst because we can't find part because they were not sold by millions like computers. And even most analog hardware do use digital parts (for LCD displays, etc...).
James Reeno Maybe, but with vintage hardware, parts and repairs are already a problem. Thats one of the reasons I sold all of my analog gear. And I did not regret a second. I'm a happy VST and VA user !!! And again, in a final mixed and mastered recording, NOBODY can tell the difference. So the only reason to own vintage is collectors value...as musical instruments, VST's are perfect alternatives.
My Oberheim Matrix 12 (USA) and the Arturia Matrix 12V sound quite close. (I have to match the multi patch stereo "output routing" or compare mono single patches) I compared the factory presets "Liquid" and "OBGenviv" and they was quite different. Then I adjusted the parameters with the same values and they still sounded different. But after adjusting the Arturia M12V carefully without looking at values I was able to make them sound very similar. (There is still some subtle "psychoacoustic feeling" that makes the real M12 sound fatter/warmer, more open.) Great job Arturia! 👍🎹🎶
@mloutris Thats not the reason why they don't match! You can't compare Korg MS 20 with the Oberheim Matrix 12, they are not digitally controlled like the Matrix 12 but plainly analog so they would sound different from one exemplar to another due to slightly different calibrations. The M12 parameters are exactly the same values from one exemplar to another due to the digital calibration. ("ALL TUNE") (If you skip the calibration it's parameters will be totally "out of tune") Arturia haven't made the parameter values in their M12V to exactly match the parameter values in the hardware Oberheim M12. (which as I mentioned is digitally controlled so it should be possible) If they did we would have the opportunity to import/export Xpander/Matrix12 "sysex" (System Exclusive) between them. I've asked Arturia to make their parameter values compatible but they said it's not possible for some reason. I even suggested they should make it possible to use the M12V as an midi-editor/librarian for the hardware M12. I think you misunderstood the Tutorial video from Glen Darcey, VP Product Management of Arturia. The Xpander in the video is his private one and not the actual synth Arturia used to emulate their M12V. They of course used a real Oberheim Matrix 12 when emulating their Arturia M12 V! 😎
I have a Matrix 12 and spent a couple of days comparing sounds with the Matrix 12V. With some EQ boost to the bass and mids the differences are very minor. The main difference I found was the general character of the VCO waveforms and the filters seem a little off... but I reckon with some tweaks you can get 99% there...
I suggest to use, if you own, the uad plugin neve1073 pre. Will give more organic sound in what is lacking as general eq vco soundish. Still missing the filters that are a bit off also for me. I own the xpander.
It's a shame that nobody thought to match the voice panning before comparing those factory patches, the Arturia versions are panned mono, and Oberheim have the voices spread across the stereo field.
Single note emulation is pretty spot on but the difference iis easier to hear in the poly output. Something about how the voices interact in the analog out.
They are close but the real Matrix sounds like it has more body/weight to it. You could possibly get more body out of the software through the use of tubes.
@mloutris Audio -Technica ATH-M50 headphones at the time and on Yamaha HS-80M monitors in my treated studio. They are close, but the software also needs a saturator plug-in, or real tubes to be spot on.
I'm loving the Matrix-12V! Still, in this demo, it appears that the real hardware is set to layered mode. If you listen, it sounds like the real thing is more chorusy and detuned, as if 2 voice cards were being assigned per key (something that the Matrix-12 AND software can totally do). I'm just saying this because I don't want people to be like "Aw, see!? The real thing is mo' betta!"
One difference I can hear, that makes the real synth sound "fuller", is that in several patches it's got the voice auto-panning that the emulator is lacking - it plays in a solid mono. The electric piano also sounds very different (and to be honest I prefer the emulated one, the original has the harmonics moving altogether from note to note, as if it was a single sample). Whatever other difference we can hear is so subtle that would get lost in a mix, or can be adjusted with some equalization (or even, I guess, with the parameters).
I find the Arturia VSTs very difficult to use with mouse due to the small graphics that can't be re-scaled. Wish they made dedicated hardware controllers for them. It would also be nice if the synths had a little more animation between individual voices: you can really hear the difference between hardware and software in this demo.
I never regret to have sold my M12 back in the 90's. Glad to see there is a 100% replica available. In a music production, no one will hear whether you've used an original or not. And I can assure you that when a M12 gets broken, it'll cost you a leg to have it serviced. Finding trustworthy technicians that really have knowledge to repair the beast, is not a simple thing. (let alone the fact that I've known repair technicians saying : "That Voice card 'X' is broken" The only thing they do is counting an expensive voice card to you, and put the money in their pockets cuz there was no voice card broken at all...) There you go with all your analog synths...LOL This is the digital area anno 2020 and it becomes harder each day and the difference in sound analog vs digital is gone.
@@SacSynths_Jack_Z I don't work for Arturia. I was selling synths back in the 80's when you were probably not even born. I own many synths of which some can even not be found on sale world wide. I made hit records and have owned and managed a professional recording studio. Currently working my last year before retirement at one of the top notch leading speaker brand in the world so been there, done that my friend. And you? Having some fun with analog synths? Good for you. You'll learn. One day if you're smart and will study the matter.
@@sK3LeTvM1 Are we having a flexxing contest? Count me in! I own over 100 synths including an OBX, Xa, 8, Matrix 12, CS80, CS70m, JP4, JP6, JP8, MKS80 Rev 4 & 5, P5 rev 2 & P10 rev 3, Chroma, Polaris, Voyetra 8, Synthex, Polymoog, Memorymoog, SX400, Quadra, A6, The River. I also repair and maintain them myself (self taught!) so I am familiar with "the matter". Have a nice day!
Yeah definitely hear the difference. Perhaps a couple fx plugins could bring it closer. When I want a dead on can’t hear a difference VST version of my Matrix I use my Matrix sample library in Kontakt.
Ujiie san , have you ever seriously worked with TASSMAN? I find it to be the most impressive VST ever made for synth emulation and modular capabilities and analog emulation. You can emulate ANYTHING with its open ended modular design! I would love to see you do a tutorial on it!
The V seems to lack some stereo image distortion that the real one has. This makes the real machine sound a bit fatter and more alive. The sounds however are practically identical, amazing work.
+Bastiaan Winde I will agree and disagree in the same place... Stereo panning (or some other features) in Arturias' synth really lacks quality and yeah... M12V sounds flatter and differently to the real Matrix. The real machine sounds not "a bit" fatter. It's a LOT fatter and sounds are not identical.. it's pretty noticeable although these guys had made really cool own presets. And one big con to the M12.V - this vst eats TOO MUCH CPU! Seems they've didn't spend a good time on optimizing the code. Or the language they've used wasn't the native C. This is easy to compare with Sonic Projects OP-X because they've made almost 100% identical virtual analogue to OB-X which eats not more than 10% (on my PC)... Now check this... Matrix.V eats from 20 to 80%. It depends on a preset and voices usage. Multi-patches are the worst at this. Very hungry. And the last drop to this pool is that V can't be really silenced by DAW. It's not usable for such features like "smart disable" (when it doesn't plays the DAW make it silenced and doesn't use CPU). So this is very cumbersome for some real and extensive production. Rendering and disabling M12V's internal voices bothers a lot. (only disabling manually "fixes" this). It's a shame for the coder who did this part.
+Phil Smith Oh, sure, everything can be fixed. But this was about the comparison between the hardware and the software and that was the difference I heard. :-)
The 12V sounds pretty good honestly. I don't see much reason to compare it so thoroughly, it is 20-30x cheaper. I own an OBX-a and actually use both the 12v and the OPX quite a bit. Its a lot of work getting everything out of these old boxes when recording digitally.
except you could get a better sound out of it if the signal remained 100% analog... have you ever had the chance to multi-track on a reel before with VCO synths? Try that.
Old video but after all the V Collection is always there, evolving and the Matrix is always part of the package... So why not adding a comment today... Well... They are big differences, one is sounding good the other is sounding weak. The real problem is that the difference between a real analog synth and a VST is just living in this space of 5-10% of differences... "Almost" the same is not "the same". And with the VST you lose all the warmth and specificity of the real machine. It is sounding "alike", but alas the differences are at the wrong place : not in some possibilities (like a LFO) but right in the middle of the generated sound, you can't miss these differences or you must urgently see a ENT specialist :-)
Aaawkwaard - the Oberheim sounds clearly better. Big notch in the lo mid that takes away too much of the presence we want from analog gear. Of course this may be something to do with the laptop D/A, but whatever it is it doesn't sound correctable with eq because the detailed structure just isn't there to bring out. I really wanted to love this thing as I have it, and don't have $5000 for a Matrix. HOWEVER - it's still an insanely good emulation and much better than anything we could have dreamed of for 100 bucks when the Matrix walked the Earth. And there certainly isn't a better emulation of any analog out there than Arturia's, whichever one you're talking about. And with the plug, you get 100 of them!
Arturia may need to go back and revisit the jupiter 8 as I suspect that they can do a better job at reproducing now than they did then with the 8V. This sounds wonderful!!!
Great demo. Just wish Arturia made custom hardware interfaces for their synths. I can't stand the on-screen editing with such tiny, fiddly controls. :(
Well, the real thing comes with costly maintenance and repairs. I'd fear that frustration over those matters would soon turn a longing into disenchantment. Some vintage synths even could hardly stay in tune, which doesn't sound great either. I'm under the impression that many VST critics tend to overlook the cons of old equipment and disregard the pros of new ways to experience the Moog, Prophet or Jupiter. Their level of realism will most certainly be further developed to an even higher standard. But there will always be naysayers, no matter how good the emulation.
Just send to a good tech and it's no problem ?? an 'emulation of a moog is NOT A MOOG ! it's a piece of software utilising the processor in your Mac ! which is hugely limiting !
mark orfila It's not really that limiting. Most of the limitations are on paper and do not apply to real world scenarios. The truth is that wannabe synth aficionados are feeling the heat of their pretentiousness burning down around them as softsynths continue to make synthesizers more accessible to poor people. At this point, a person could dig an old computer out of the garbage, install free software on it and have a functional synthesizer. This really pisses off the purists, because they don't want these unwashed proles moving in on their hobby. What really seems to anger the elitists most is that most of them don't actually have any fans and don't produce any music that people want to listen to. There is a lot of expensive, legit gear out there in the hands of people with almost no musical talent. That's the real synth crisis. If you have a lot of money, you can buy a lot of ridiculous gear, but from now on there will almost always be some guy with a cheap or free softsynth who makes better music than you. I've played a voyager a few times and it's pretty bad ass, but I'll own a moog the day they don't cost as much as a used car, thank you very much. Imagine if they actually sold those for what they were worth instead of what the stupid name demanded. It's a joke. (music store owners laugh at people who buy this junk at anywhere near retail price..)
I think that's a very good insight. Fancy synths today are not as prestigious and elitist as they were in the 70s. Futurism has become commonplace. Personally I don't think it means a lot how you like your synths. Digital, analogue, in the end it's just down to getting cool sounds. But one problem is that these days there's too much of everything. There are too many soft synths, and there are too many presets and too many sound banks . It makes it far more difficult to find the will to focus on just one instrument and get the most out of it. Also, mediocre hobby music is of all times, but it's become easier to bring it out these days. If people are having fun sharing their mediocre productions without being involved with the record industry, more power to them!
+Amal Gamoth In 10 years , I doubt you will find the presets you created today on your virtual synth... I still have my presets I created 25 years ago in my hardware synths
Don’t know if this comparison is fair, but the original sounds by miles better. While doing a blind test it would be easy to hear which one is the original. It sounds kind of the same as when comparing an Xpander to a Matrix 6/6R/1000.
what people not thinking about is that he is using the sound just out of a laptop which audio isn't that great I think if you use a high end sound card in a desktop it would sound better
I think they both sound great and I always maintain that when you put VST's in a mix and apply all the usual signal processing that most listeners wouldn't notice the difference. I'm not interested in paying thousands of dollars for an instrument to satisfy some purist impulse to have the real thing. Virtual analogue is good enough for me.
Good emulation, but the real instrument sounds more expressive...even when he tries to adjust the 'brightness' to better match it. Analog modelling is so close nowadays compared to several years ago, but it always sounds a little dulled compared to an instrument it's trying to emulate or (worse) still gets some artifacting in some respects.
xnonsuchx As far as we know, the V could sound identical to the Matrix 12 that Arturia had when they were developing it. It could be that the M12 that was used in this demo was out of calibration hence filters sounding slightly more open. As with most vintage analogues, no two sound identical, especially after 30 years.
While the emulation is impressively close on some patches more than others, it's still lacking in something from the hardware as usual....harmonics, movement, that subtle sense of 'aliveness'. Software to my ears always sounds a little more flat and two dimensional, sterile etc.. Doesn't stop me from using it. It can get closer with EQ and a little bit of effects.
The analog synth is a lot smoother / less "forced" sounding. It's not a question of brightness to me.. it's more how the arturia emlation is a bit strained and harsh compared to the real deal.
I use VST's every day and love them for what they are, but IMO this doesn't sound very much like the "real deal". For $150 it's hard to complain about the sound though, but again, it sounds very limited in comparison a real Matrix 12....at least to my 47 year old ears. :)
the matrix 12 is a great sounding Japanese synth. but why do people say the original is this or that? it's like comparing a new car to an old shelby modified version. most people will not only never own the original, they'll never even see one in their lifetime. if you want to try to find an obsolete synth, fork out $5G for it, and hope you can find a tech to fix it when it breaks, good luck.
Ah. I was not aware of that, although to call it Japanese because of that is still pushing it a bit. Nissans are Japanese cars but some of them are made in the UK. I'd still call them Japanese.
davedagreat69 if it was designed, engineered, and manufactured in Japan, I don't know what else you'd call it besides Japanese. the name was simply owned by gibson.
I'm really surprised by that. I don't remember Japan being mentioned at its time of launch. I found this retro review of the Xpander, on which it's based, in Sound On Sound "Its design team included such newcomers as Marcus Ryle and Michel Doidic working on the software" and Tom Oberheim oversaw production of it. Can you find any reference to Japanese design and engineering and direct me to it. I haven't found one reference to it anywhere. I'm genuinely curious.
Es similar en cuanto a sonido, pero no tiene el alma del original. Pero para nosotros los pobres que no tenemos 13mil dolares para comprar uno nuevo, es más que suficiente.
Perhaps running it through a dedicated, professional DAC's box and then through a reel- to- reel tape saturation would bring this beast to life. Anyway, great emulation and video
I can’t believe the someone went to all this trouble and built the big ugly black box on the left when all those sounds were already in the cute little grey box on the right!
All the comments below in mind : who will - at the end - tell the difference in a mixed recording ? Right, nobody ! Even if a real M12 is recorded in a DAW, the result is that it will sound as digital as a VST version.
James Reeno The man behind the knobs will decide. At the end, nobody can tell if a true analog or VST was used. Nobody can tell the difference. I did several blind tests with a 909 and an R8M. Everybody failed to determine the original. Analog is a just mythical believe, and you are simply one of those believers. To you talks an ex-gearfucker who was, I repeat, was blind, or better said, def. Now I know better. Now I can admit that my Virus Classic sounds better (fatter, more agressive, more detail) then my old OB8 I once had. Sorry mate, but its time to wake up.
Agree. I bought a Korg ms 20 in 1978. For a long time it was my only synth. I did a lot of crazy recordings on a 4 track tape cassette recorder. Because I had only that synth I had to deal with all those nasty sounds all the time and I longed for something less aggressive and dry. I kind of don't understand peoples fascination with that synth. On the other hand people are possessed with FAD BIG sounds. Thing about fat sounds , they leave no space for other sounds. Sometimes a nasty sound from the korg ms 20 is the only thing you can squeeze into a too fat sound picture.
@@SPAZZOID100 Well, some self-declared wood-bees will tell you that digital will never record the nuances of an analog signal. Therefor these idiots still use tape recorders. I've seen and I've heard them all talking blabla when I still had my professional recording studio... Just tell me what happens when you record digital. Your signal becomes static 100100010100. No matter what you source is.
:) no nie da się naśladować ani cs-80, ani rolanda d-50, ani matrixa-12, (artykulacja, dynamika, siła, gęstość dźwięku, szybkość reakcji, konkretne działanie na podświadomość itd. :) po cóż więc robić repliki vsti skoro... dodatkowo celowo pogarsza się ich jakość, a pogarsza się bo sprzętowe wtedy arturii byłyby zbędne a nie są?:) (ano robi się to dla pieniędzy:)) - oto enigma marketingu:), poza tym replika... zawsze jest gorsza, z samej zasady, co innego nowe podejście, czyli oryginał, szukajmy zatem: oryginałów:)).
Who cares if it sounds identical? It's close enough!. I bought the M12V and it is the fattest sounding VI I've ever had. F**k the snobs who say analogue is best - that difference you're looking for 'won't' make your songs any better.
+St. Clair Pardon me... I'm not that snob... just for a case. But did you've tried Sonic Projects OP-X? It's really amazing. The comparison to Oberheim OB-X is easy to find. I've couldn't differ it from the original without seeing what that guy's playing on! In this case of Arturia's V you easily hear the difference. But for this time I think it's the only one Matrix (full) virtual analogue. OP-X lacks some possibilities to make presets like on M12 although it's very decent.
What? Doesn't sound the same, similar but a hell lot of harmonics are missing from what I can perceive. It's an emulation. But HELL NO, not like this dude says. It's not the same sound
Sascha Haber I had in mind playing original keybed and having the physical instrument in front of me. I wouldn't pay to see knob twidling "performance".
Andrew Piatek Ok, i agree fully to the point of sound design i prefer a haptic experience. But I also happen to have the KeyLab in the video, and honestly, the design is so clever, I rarely load the UI to adjust more than what is there, especially in my own sounds.
James Reeno Yet if you were blindfolded and asked to tell the difference between a 'real' synth and some random vst, you'd probably fail the test, just like most everyone else. Myself included.
![ARTURIA Solina V Demo & Review [English Captions]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/l3Cp7o9F1hw/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm going to give Arturia a little love here. This emulation is nearly dead spot on with a 5% difference at the most. The original has a little more presence and the low end has slightly more definition and clarity. However, many of us will never have the chance to own this original and glorious instrument...and there is always the question of reliability. At a fraction of the price, I am stunned how close this gets.
Without a video, there is probably only a handful of people that would guess correctly. And in a mix, even less so. It's truly wonderful that the rest of us will have a chance to utilize the magical sound of this synth without having to remortgage a home to do it.
+Dennis Mcveigh I agree and I would add this: Even if there's a tiny difference, we have to keep in mind that there was already tiny differences between two similar analog synths. And it does mean that one is "better" than the other... just slightly different. That's the same thing with all analog/electronic devices (mics, preamps, outboard gears, synths, etc...).
Most of the time, on a recorded track, adding some slightly tiny EQ corrections would be enough... to a point virtually no one could actually really figure it out in a real ABX blind-test what is the original instruments and what is the copy.
So why to bother to buy something that could be fragile with no support, that is heavy and expensive when we can just use a virtual plugin we can carry with us everywhere in our computer :)
I know, all plugins are not reaching their full potential yet, but it's just a matter of time before any analog instruments could be perfectly reproduced (99.99% close to the original used as reference).
+D. MC Hook up a real high end DAC like Prism or Lynx, and the difference is gone. Even sounds better than the original. I can tell since I've owned a real M12. What drives best, a 20 year old car, or a brand new one...?
+Phil Smith only problem is that vst's are not supported very long. A few years at best. Then the OS will not recognize it.
James Reeno Not at all since all plugins are now 64 bits and we won't have 128 bits OS anytime soon (if it even ever happen). And there's also plenty of wrapper that allow you to use your old plugins, and you can still run old hardware for your old plugin. You can still have computers running Win98 today if you want, and it will be way easier to ever found any parts for it on ebay since it will use computer parts that was sold by millions, while dedicated keyboards use proprietary parts we can't find anyway. I have hard expander I can't get fixed because the company is gone and nobody have any part for it (old GEM S2/R). While in the other hand, I can still find some old Asus Pentium IV motherboard to run Win98 if I would still use my old plugins from 1999/2000... even thought I do have updates of them that run on my last computer (even though it's now a Mac, so a completely different OS). Digital hardware is not any better than computers, it's actually worst because we can't find part because they were not sold by millions like computers. And even most analog hardware do use digital parts (for LCD displays, etc...).
James Reeno
Maybe, but with vintage hardware, parts and repairs are already a problem. Thats one of the reasons I sold all of my analog gear. And I did not regret a second. I'm a happy VST and VA user !!! And again, in a final mixed and mastered recording, NOBODY can tell the difference. So the only reason to own vintage is collectors value...as musical instruments, VST's are perfect alternatives.
My Oberheim Matrix 12 (USA) and the Arturia Matrix 12V sound quite close. (I have to match the multi patch stereo "output routing" or compare mono single patches)
I compared the factory presets "Liquid" and "OBGenviv" and they was quite different.
Then I adjusted the parameters with the same values and they still sounded different. But after adjusting the Arturia M12V carefully without looking at values I was able to make them sound very similar. (There is still some subtle "psychoacoustic feeling" that makes the real M12 sound fatter/warmer, more open.)
Great job Arturia! 👍🎹🎶
i have analog lab and I'm thinking of adding some pre-amp or some sort of sonic plugin ... just can't think of one
Issie wizzie A trafo preamp would probably make the M12V sound more analog, but some of the Waves/UAD 2 API-stuff would help too. 🎹
@mloutris
Thats not the reason why they don't match!
You can't compare Korg MS 20 with the Oberheim Matrix 12, they are not digitally controlled like the Matrix 12 but plainly analog so they would sound different from one exemplar to another due to slightly different calibrations. The M12 parameters are exactly the same values from one exemplar to another due to the digital calibration. ("ALL TUNE") (If you skip the calibration it's parameters will be totally "out of tune")
Arturia haven't made the parameter values in their M12V to exactly match the parameter values in the hardware Oberheim M12. (which as I mentioned is digitally controlled so it should be possible) If they did we would have the opportunity to import/export Xpander/Matrix12 "sysex" (System Exclusive) between them.
I've asked Arturia to make their parameter values compatible but they said it's not possible for some reason. I even suggested they should make it possible to use the M12V as an midi-editor/librarian for the hardware M12.
I think you misunderstood the Tutorial video from Glen Darcey, VP Product Management of Arturia. The Xpander in the video is his private one
and not the actual synth Arturia used to emulate their M12V.
They of course used a real Oberheim Matrix 12 when emulating their Arturia M12 V!
😎
I have a Matrix 12 and spent a couple of days comparing sounds with the Matrix 12V. With some EQ boost to the bass and mids the differences are very minor. The main difference I found was the general character of the VCO waveforms and the filters seem a little off... but I reckon with some tweaks you can get 99% there...
I suggest to use, if you own, the uad plugin neve1073 pre. Will give more organic sound in what is lacking as general eq vco soundish. Still missing the filters that are a bit off also for me. I own the xpander.
It's a shame that nobody thought to match the voice panning before comparing those factory patches, the Arturia versions are panned mono, and Oberheim have the voices spread across the stereo field.
+zmix Is that the difference I'm hearing? Ah, makes sense
You CAN do it in Arturia's version, it's just that as you said, the ones he had up were all panned mid.
@@AdamBorseti Yeh, it's whoever made the arturia presets got a little lazy. The synth they made is pretty damn close though
6:14 !
As an owner of a Jupiter 8 and many more, i can only say that Arturia did their homework, especially on this one and the SEM ...
Ujiie, you give the all-around best synth reviews in the world. Thank you.
Single note emulation is pretty spot on but the difference iis easier to hear in the poly output. Something about how the voices interact in the analog out.
Paul V
They are close but the real Matrix sounds like it has more body/weight to it. You could possibly get more body out of the software through the use of tubes.
@mloutris Audio -Technica ATH-M50 headphones at the time and on Yamaha HS-80M monitors in my treated studio. They are close, but the software also needs a saturator plug-in, or real tubes to be spot on.
LMAO yeah right! You keep telling yourself that.
@@deanivan3951 Clean the wax out your ears bro. Lol. The Arturia isn't bad. It just needs a little extra. ;-)
Vintage synthesizer WIN!
I'm loving the Matrix-12V! Still, in this demo, it appears that the real hardware is set to layered mode. If you listen, it sounds like the real thing is more chorusy and detuned, as if 2 voice cards were being assigned per key (something that the Matrix-12 AND software can totally do). I'm just saying this because I don't want people to be like "Aw, see!? The real thing is mo' betta!"
One difference I can hear, that makes the real synth sound "fuller", is that in several patches it's got the voice auto-panning that the emulator is lacking - it plays in a solid mono. The electric piano also sounds very different (and to be honest I prefer the emulated one, the original has the harmonics moving altogether from note to note, as if it was a single sample). Whatever other difference we can hear is so subtle that would get lost in a mix, or can be adjusted with some equalization (or even, I guess, with the parameters).
I find the Arturia VSTs very difficult to use with mouse due to the small graphics that can't be re-scaled. Wish they made dedicated hardware controllers for them. It would also be nice if the synths had a little more animation between individual voices: you can really hear the difference between hardware and software in this demo.
I never regret to have sold my M12 back in the 90's. Glad to see there is a 100% replica available. In a music production, no one will hear whether you've used an original or not. And I can assure you that when a M12 gets broken, it'll cost you a leg to have it serviced. Finding trustworthy technicians that really have knowledge to repair the beast, is not a simple thing. (let alone the fact that I've known repair technicians saying : "That Voice card 'X' is broken" The only thing they do is counting an expensive voice card to you, and put the money in their pockets cuz there was no voice card broken at all...) There you go with all your analog synths...LOL This is the digital area anno 2020 and it becomes harder each day and the difference in sound analog vs digital is gone.
Me too £500 😞😞
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Do you work for Arturia?
@@SacSynths_Jack_Z I don't work for Arturia. I was selling synths back in the 80's when you were probably not even born. I own many synths of which some can even not be found on sale world wide. I made hit records and have owned and managed a professional recording studio. Currently working my last year before retirement at one of the top notch leading speaker brand in the world so been there, done that my friend. And you? Having some fun with analog synths? Good for you. You'll learn. One day if you're smart and will study the matter.
@@sK3LeTvM1 Are we having a flexxing contest? Count me in! I own over 100 synths including an OBX, Xa, 8, Matrix 12, CS80, CS70m, JP4, JP6, JP8, MKS80 Rev 4 & 5, P5 rev 2 & P10 rev 3, Chroma, Polaris, Voyetra 8, Synthex, Polymoog, Memorymoog, SX400, Quadra, A6, The River. I also repair and maintain them myself (self taught!) so I am familiar with "the matter". Have a nice day!
Thank you for adding Subtitles! I have Subbed!
Yeah definitely hear the difference. Perhaps a couple fx plugins could bring it closer. When I want a dead on can’t hear a difference VST version of my Matrix I use my Matrix sample library in Kontakt.
Materix! ;)
Japanese is a moraic language; it does'nt like consonant clusters like -tr-.
Thank you for the great demos, Ujiie san!
Ujiie san , have you ever seriously worked with TASSMAN? I find it to be the most impressive VST ever made for synth emulation and modular capabilities and analog emulation. You can emulate ANYTHING with its open ended modular design! I would love to see you do a tutorial on it!
The V seems to lack some stereo image distortion that the real one has. This makes the real machine sound a bit fatter and more alive. The sounds however are practically identical, amazing work.
+Bastiaan Winde I think its the chorus which is lacking on the V.
Sounds plausible.
+Bastiaan Winde
I will agree and disagree in the same place... Stereo panning (or some other features) in Arturias' synth really lacks quality and yeah... M12V sounds flatter and differently to the real Matrix. The real machine sounds not "a bit" fatter. It's a LOT fatter and sounds are not identical.. it's pretty noticeable although these guys had made really cool own presets.
And one big con to the M12.V - this vst eats TOO MUCH CPU! Seems they've didn't spend a good time on optimizing the code. Or the language they've used wasn't the native C. This is easy to compare with Sonic Projects OP-X because they've made almost 100% identical virtual analogue to OB-X which eats not more than 10% (on my PC)... Now check this... Matrix.V eats from 20 to 80%. It depends on a preset and voices usage. Multi-patches are the worst at this. Very hungry.
And the last drop to this pool is that V can't be really silenced by DAW. It's not usable for such features like "smart disable" (when it doesn't plays the DAW make it silenced and doesn't use CPU). So this is very cumbersome for some real and extensive production. Rendering and disabling M12V's internal voices bothers a lot. (only disabling manually "fixes" this). It's a shame for the coder who did this part.
+Bastiaan Winde Fat sound is nothing more than harmonic distortion... It could easily be fixed with an effect plugin if you want.
+Phil Smith Oh, sure, everything can be fixed. But this was about the comparison between the hardware and the software and that was the difference I heard. :-)
なんていい音するんでしょう素晴らしい！！
The 12V sounds pretty good honestly. I don't see much reason to compare it so thoroughly, it is 20-30x cheaper. I own an OBX-a and actually use both the 12v and the OPX quite a bit. Its a lot of work getting everything out of these old boxes when recording digitally.
Not true. I have been recording vintage gear digitally for years. No problemo.
except you could get a better sound out of it if the signal remained 100% analog... have you ever had the chance to multi-track on a reel before with VCO synths? Try that.
+Isaac Rife analog tape is not necessary to capture warmth. Digital is more transparent. It captures analog signals perfectly without coloring them.
sad to say it, but the hardware sounds totally different in terms of compactness and the detailed richness of harmonics.
Where did you get all these soundbanks? Thank for this amazing video.
冷却ファンの紹介までしてるところが流石です
Matrix12 is a little bit louder than Matrix12V. Comparing is only possible when gain of both is exactly the same.
いつもながら素晴らしいデモ演奏！
ありがとうございます。 ;)
much has to do with the sound card in the laptop. lots of variation there on top of the emulation errors.
English sub-title is available now !
ua-cam.com/video/tfi-nZBDOsY/v-deo.html
Close enough!!!
Are they your patches played here or can I buy patches for this anywhere?
Old video but after all the V Collection is always there, evolving and the Matrix is always part of the package... So why not adding a comment today...
Well... They are big differences, one is sounding good the other is sounding weak. The real problem is that the difference between a real analog synth and a VST is just living in this space of 5-10% of differences... "Almost" the same is not "the same". And with the VST you lose all the warmth and specificity of the real machine. It is sounding "alike", but alas the differences are at the wrong place : not in some possibilities (like a LFO) but right in the middle of the generated sound, you can't miss these differences or you must urgently see a ENT specialist :-)
I feel like the hardware Matrix-12 has a little tuning issue - does it have a CALIBRATE setting like the Matrix-6/6R?
Aaawkwaard - the Oberheim sounds clearly better. Big notch in the lo mid that takes away too much of the presence we want from analog gear. Of course this may be something to do with the laptop D/A, but whatever it is it doesn't sound correctable with eq because the detailed structure just isn't there to bring out. I really wanted to love this thing as I have it, and don't have $5000 for a Matrix. HOWEVER - it's still an insanely good emulation and much better than anything we could have dreamed of for 100 bucks when the Matrix walked the Earth. And there certainly isn't a better emulation of any analog out there than Arturia's, whichever one you're talking about. And with the plug, you get 100 of them!
It’s decent in the low and mid ranges, but I wish Arturia would up the quality levels so that the higher registers don’t alias that much.
Arturia may need to go back and revisit the jupiter 8 as I suspect that they can do a better job at reproducing now than they did then with the 8V. This sounds wonderful!!!
synthartist69 I agree because the 8V is shit. Yes, I said it.
Its been updated.
Great demo. Just wish Arturia made custom hardware interfaces for their synths. I can't stand the on-screen editing with such tiny, fiddly controls. :(
guys I have bugs in it, and sound is sometimes not produced, have u same problems?
Very nice!
Why, oh why, has no one put a true rendition of the famous St. Genevive patch on any of the software of sample library Matrix 12's?
Well, the real thing comes with costly maintenance and repairs. I'd fear that frustration over those matters would soon turn a longing into disenchantment. Some vintage synths even could hardly stay in tune, which doesn't sound great either. I'm under the impression that many VST critics tend to overlook the cons of old equipment and disregard the pros of new ways to experience the Moog, Prophet or Jupiter. Their level of realism will most certainly be further developed to an even higher standard. But there will always be naysayers, no matter how good the emulation.
Amal Gamoth Most VST critics on the internet are poverty-stricken liars that don't even own any synths.
Just send to a good tech and it's no problem ?? an 'emulation of a moog is NOT A MOOG ! it's a piece of software utilising the processor in your Mac ! which is hugely limiting !
mark orfila
It's not really that limiting. Most of the limitations are on paper and do not apply to real world scenarios.
The truth is that wannabe synth aficionados are feeling the heat of their pretentiousness burning down around them as softsynths continue to make synthesizers more accessible to poor people.
At this point, a person could dig an old computer out of the garbage, install free software on it and have a functional synthesizer. This really pisses off the purists, because they don't want these unwashed proles moving in on their hobby.
What really seems to anger the elitists most is that most of them don't actually have any fans and don't produce any music that people want to listen to. There is a lot of expensive, legit gear out there in the hands of people with almost no musical talent. That's the real synth crisis. If you have a lot of money, you can buy a lot of ridiculous gear, but from now on there will almost always be some guy with a cheap or free softsynth who makes better music than you.
I've played a voyager a few times and it's pretty bad ass, but I'll own a moog the day they don't cost as much as a used car, thank you very much. Imagine if they actually sold those for what they were worth instead of what the stupid name demanded. It's a joke.
(music store owners laugh at people who buy this junk at anywhere near retail price..)
I think that's a very good insight. Fancy synths today are not as prestigious and elitist as they were in the 70s. Futurism has become commonplace.
Personally I don't think it means a lot how you like your synths. Digital, analogue, in the end it's just down to getting cool sounds. But one problem is that these days there's too much of everything. There are too many soft synths, and there are too many presets and too many sound banks . It makes it far more difficult to find the will to focus on just one instrument and get the most out of it.
Also, mediocre hobby music is of all times, but it's become easier to bring it out these days. If people are having fun sharing their mediocre productions without being involved with the record industry, more power to them!
+Amal Gamoth In 10 years , I doubt you will find the presets you created today on your virtual synth... I still have my presets I created 25 years ago in my hardware synths
Don’t know if this comparison is fair, but the original sounds by miles better. While doing a blind test it would be easy to hear which one is the original. It sounds kind of the same as when comparing an Xpander to a Matrix 6/6R/1000.
what people not thinking about is that he is using the sound just out of a laptop which audio isn't that great I think if you use a high end sound card in a desktop it would sound better
I think they both sound great and I always maintain that when you put VST's in a mix and apply all the usual signal processing that most listeners wouldn't notice the difference. I'm not interested in paying thousands of dollars for an instrument to satisfy some purist impulse to have the real thing. Virtual analogue is good enough for me.
Pretty close but the difference in quality is noticeable.
The piano patch almost sounds the same as the one a Jupiter 6.
Good emulation, but the real instrument sounds more expressive...even when he tries to adjust the 'brightness' to better match it. Analog modelling is so close nowadays compared to several years ago, but it always sounds a little dulled compared to an instrument it's trying to emulate or (worse) still gets some artifacting in some respects.
xnonsuchx Yup! In fact the Arturia Prophet V sounds nothing like the real Prophet VS.
sys2074 Thank god :-D
In a mix, nobody would know.
James Reeno You would if you have been exposed to a real Matrix 12 ...or have a 'good ear'....
xnonsuchx As far as we know, the V could sound identical to the Matrix 12 that Arturia had when they were developing it. It could be that the M12 that was used in this demo was out of calibration hence filters sounding slightly more open. As with most vintage analogues, no two sound identical, especially after 30 years.
I hope they release an iPad version.
While the emulation is impressively close on some patches more than others, it's still lacking in something from the hardware as usual....harmonics, movement, that subtle sense of 'aliveness'. Software to my ears always sounds a little more flat and two dimensional, sterile etc.. Doesn't stop me from using it. It can get closer with EQ and a little bit of effects.
The analog synth is a lot smoother / less "forced" sounding. It's not a question of brightness to me.. it's more how the arturia emlation is a bit strained and harsh compared to the real deal.
Which midi keyboard does he use?
Arturia keylab 61
You can see the name in the video.....
How much for the synth on the left?
$7,000
About $4600
Not true, it has mostly been priced around 6000 $.
I use VST's every day and love them for what they are, but IMO this doesn't sound very much like the "real deal". For $150 it's hard to complain about the sound though, but again, it sounds very limited in comparison a real Matrix 12....at least to my 47 year old ears. :)
the matrix 12 is a great sounding Japanese synth. but why do people say the original is this or that? it's like comparing a new car to an old shelby modified version. most people will not only never own the original, they'll never even see one in their lifetime. if you want to try to find an obsolete synth, fork out $5G for it, and hope you can find a tech to fix it when it breaks, good luck.
+chieftp Japanese? It's made by Oberheim.
davedagreat69
it was made in japan several years after oberheim went bankrupt and was bought by gibson.
Ah. I was not aware of that, although to call it Japanese because of that is still pushing it a bit. Nissans are Japanese cars but some of them are made in the UK. I'd still call them Japanese.
davedagreat69
if it was designed, engineered, and manufactured in Japan, I don't know what else you'd call it besides Japanese. the name was simply owned by gibson.
I'm really surprised by that. I don't remember Japan being mentioned at its time of launch. I found this retro review of the Xpander, on which it's based, in Sound On Sound "Its design team included such newcomers as Marcus Ryle and Michel Doidic working on the software" and Tom Oberheim oversaw production of it. Can you find any reference to Japanese design and engineering and direct me to it. I haven't found one reference to it anywhere. I'm genuinely curious.
Definite difference between the two, but still sounds amazing
I'll take a real Oberheim Matrix 12 over a crappy emulation any day. The difference in sound is huge.
matrix 12 ..... the best...the bass is much more defined, the dynamic is more high and the sound in general is far higher to Arturia
Es similar en cuanto a sonido, pero no tiene el alma del original. Pero para nosotros los pobres que no tenemos 13mil dolares para comprar uno nuevo, es más que suficiente.
ehhhhhhh it's pretty close but definitely something missing. the vst is too "round" and lacks the subtle movement of the real one
no ok, to dla mnie sprzętowy, a dla Ciebie V12
all the people whining about a difference isn't anything a plugin like Saturn can't make up for
Perhaps running it through a dedicated, professional DAC's box and then through a reel- to- reel tape saturation would bring this beast to life. Anyway, great emulation and video
is this anime for synth nerds?? I prefer the dubbed
I can’t believe the someone went to all this trouble and built the big ugly black box on the left when all those sounds were already in the cute little grey box on the right!
All the comments below in mind : who will - at the end - tell the difference in a mixed recording ? Right, nobody ! Even if a real M12 is recorded in a DAW, the result is that it will sound as digital as a VST version.
Recoding an analog signal digitally does not make it sound digital. Digital simply captures all the analog nuances perfectly.
James Reeno
The man behind the knobs will decide. At the end, nobody can tell if a true analog or VST was used. Nobody can tell the difference. I did several blind tests with a 909 and an R8M. Everybody failed to determine the original. Analog is a just mythical believe, and you are simply one of those believers. To you talks an ex-gearfucker who was, I repeat, was blind, or better said, def. Now I know better. Now I can admit that my Virus Classic sounds better (fatter, more agressive, more detail) then my old OB8 I once had. Sorry mate, but its time to wake up.
Agree. I bought a Korg ms 20 in 1978. For a long time it was my only synth. I did a lot of crazy recordings on a 4 track tape cassette recorder. Because I had only that synth I had to deal with all those nasty sounds all the time and I longed for something less aggressive and dry. I kind of don't understand peoples fascination with that synth. On the other hand people are possessed with FAD BIG sounds. Thing about fat sounds , they leave no space for other sounds. Sometimes a nasty sound from the korg ms 20 is the only thing you can squeeze into a too fat sound picture.
@@SPAZZOID100 Well, some self-declared wood-bees will tell you that digital will never record the nuances of an analog signal. Therefor these idiots still use tape recorders. I've seen and I've heard them all talking blabla when I still had my professional recording studio... Just tell me what happens when you record digital. Your signal becomes static 100100010100. No matter what you source is.
Amazing how the real one sounds. You can hear the attack of every analog note in a chord. The copy is just 1 woosh of low end. Not so much definition.
:) no nie da się naśladować ani cs-80, ani rolanda d-50, ani matrixa-12, (artykulacja, dynamika, siła, gęstość dźwięku, szybkość reakcji, konkretne działanie na podświadomość itd. :) po cóż więc robić repliki vsti skoro... dodatkowo celowo pogarsza się ich jakość, a pogarsza się bo sprzętowe wtedy arturii byłyby zbędne a nie są?:) (ano robi się to dla pieniędzy:)) - oto enigma marketingu:), poza tym replika... zawsze jest gorsza, z samej zasady, co innego nowe podejście, czyli oryginał, szukajmy zatem: oryginałów:)).
Who cares if it sounds identical? It's close enough!. I bought the M12V and it is the fattest sounding VI I've ever had.
F**k the snobs who say analogue is best - that difference you're looking for 'won't' make your songs any better.
+St. Clair
Pardon me... I'm not that snob... just for a case. But did you've tried Sonic Projects OP-X? It's really amazing. The comparison to Oberheim OB-X is easy to find. I've couldn't differ it from the original without seeing what that guy's playing on!
In this case of Arturia's V you easily hear the difference.
But for this time I think it's the only one Matrix (full) virtual analogue. OP-X lacks some possibilities to make presets like on M12 although it's very decent.
Except that they do not sound identical.
Not even close to the real thing. Arturia's emulation sounds plastic and muted compared to the richer and open sounding Matrix 12.
Check your monitors, bro.
What? Doesn't sound the same, similar but a hell lot of harmonics are missing from what I can perceive. It's an emulation. But HELL NO, not like this dude says. It's not the same sound
Real matrix 12 sounds much better, more bright, clear and pleasant
Van halen sounds
プリセットの再現性はイマイチですが良かったです、
Who cares if it even sounds better than real thing? The look, feel, and experience is totally lost with a laptop and cheesy controller.
Andrew Piatek Yeah, but some people make music while others just fiddle with knobs
Sascha Haber I had in mind playing original keybed and having the physical instrument in front of me. I wouldn't pay to see knob twidling "performance".
Andrew Piatek Ok, i agree fully to the point of sound design i prefer a haptic experience.
But I also happen to have the KeyLab in the video, and honestly, the design is so clever, I rarely load the UI to adjust more than what is there, especially in my own sounds.
I think what I meant is that I prefer the looks and feels of original Matrix-12
Vst's only work for about 6 years. Hardware can last a lifetime.
the real one sounds soooo much better
The real one costs sooooo much more!
Vst emulations just make me long fir the real thing.
James Reeno Yet if you were blindfolded and asked to tell the difference between a 'real' synth and some random vst, you'd probably fail the test.
James Reeno Yet if you were blindfolded and asked to tell the difference between a 'real' synth and some random vst, you'd probably fail the test, just like most everyone else. Myself included.
In this case that's very easy to get right, the original is so much richer.
The original Matrix-12 sounds better, no way
The original hardware sounds fatter
Carlos Adriano Mateus Just like gramma.