Thats probably the median FTP for people wanting to purchase a gen 8 madone and if you want buy in from consumers you should probably market to them. I think is fine, I like that it's relatable.
This is what happened. There is nothing bogus about it or anything espcially cleaver. 1. Treks bottom line wasn't good enough after the Covid highs and the management started a cost saving program. 2. Cutting SKUs is a good way of increasing margins (google Trek internal memo SKU). 3. R&D team got a task to develop an all-arounder so that they could streamline the portfolio, thus the "new Madone". 4. Enter the poor marketing team that got assigned the task to spin this as improvement for the consumer even though the whole case is 100% about cutting costs for Trek and their partners.
Nailed it… Chris and Jesse are making it way too complicated. Trek is in deep financially after buying out too many local bike shops post covid bike boom and needs to cut costs. Producing one bike is cheaper than two. Simple as that.
@@DelTacobuenoi applied for a bit of casual work at one of my local trek stores and never got a shout. I know bikes inside out, build them, ride them, race them [some would question that last part]. Went in to that shop yesterday and the not fluent in English new rep didnt have a clue about the differences between an SLR or SL. In fact I don’t think he knew what i meant when i said SLR so he went to the computer. Trek, employ people who know what they are talking about, from a kiddy’s trike to the SLR 9 DA one Red. The marketing videos looked great but on handling the shop SL7 i was underwhelmed by the weight but impressed that with Di2 Ultegra you can buy full race capable Masters bike for under $8500 Aussie dollar. I’m going to respray my Factor Ostro Vam for a grand instead.
For what my 2 cents worth is, Trek designed the next gen Emonda with the hole. Then someone up at the top said “wait a minute, we need to reduce costs so let’s rebrand this as an all rounder climber Aero.” To me this is an Emonda just badged now as the Madone.
@@stevegriffiths605 Not sure what the "not fluent in English" bit has to do with it. Sounds a bit "bigoted/racisty" if I'm being honest. Kind of casts your "cool story bro" in a very different and unpleasant light.
Love the show, love the honesty and backed up views. Long story short some 30 years ago, yes before the days of mobiles and Insta. I was speaking to a Pro Motocrosser who had just gotten back from Japan and the Yamaha factory and he said the development was always 7 years ahead, even that long ago. I’m with Chris, give it to us now.
next week I want a 3h podcast that I can listen to when climbing Pico del Veleta in southern Spain. Nah kidding, I love listening to the quiet early morning to much to overlay it with something else. Even your show :-)
looks like Jonas' S5 last year at the tour came in at 7.1kg with old sram red and 1x, so I could believe with the new red setup it could get to 6.8 or really close. Fully potential for Chris to get the S5 down to 6.8, but it would be a load of new parts lol. Rotors, groupset, wheels, saddle, pedals and seat post.
Nice seeing the SEKA bar tape wrapped top to bottom. Not enough people do it, but it looks so much cleaner than bottom to top and needing finishing tape.
Evening Gents, I was in my local Trek shop today and they were putting together a new Madone SLR 9 AXS Gen 8 model in a ML which is like a 54\56 and it weighed in at 7.1 kg with the water bottles on the frame, no pedals which matches pretty close to what they are saying on their website. I really think the weights people are seeing are really dependent on the scale they are using.
Seems a bit contradictory on the Madone discussion in 2 ways: 1) Chris talks about how the bike brands already know whats coming up for 2030. Maybe not exactly that far in advance, but new frame design and testing and tooling prep takes years. Can not be a SKU-related design from Trek by your own logic that they planned this bike years ago, well before the internal memo to make cuts. However, it fully could have been designed as the next Emonda or Madone, then cutting the other model as a SKU decision. But even if the brand wasn't looking to cut SKUs, this was the bike we would have had at this moment in time, under one of those model names. 2) Just discussed that Jonas is climbing on an S5 aero bike where they found a way to get the weight down to the UCI min 6.8kg. If this new Madone shed enough weight that they can get it to 6.8 for the pro tour, then the Emonda serves no purpose any more. If they actually have one that is 7kg, then just putting climbing wheels on it would get you to 6.8. From a consumer perspective, it was never the bike regular casual riders should have been buying anyway, as it was slower than the outgoing Madone in almost all conditions unless you were only doing a mountain stage above 5-6% grade, and not descending down the other side. Source: bikerumor.com/aerodynamics-vs-weight-whats-more-important-tipping-point-pro-amateur-cyclists/ Trek provided some of their own data on testing Madone vs Emonda for this article too. However, I do agree with you on the aero claims. I bet it'll be a couple watts slower than the outgoing frame, which was already not among the top performers anyway. Trek likes to talk up the Isospeed thing, but unless its providing some serious compliance/comfort, it sure doesn't seem to be providing any aero benefit.
At launch, in one of the UA-cam videos a Trek engineer confirmed that the new Madone was originally being developed to become the new Emonda before they changed direction.
Only just found out that the Emonda, Domane and Madone are all named after the Madone - the climb Lance would test on before the Tour. Emonda and Domane are just Madone scrambled differently.
RE: tire widths. BikeRadar was able to go over Pogacar's TdF Colnago and measured his tire widths. Result? 32.6 rear and 33.2 front 😂 So 28 is being ditched by even the best cyclists!
@@Eirikkinserdal Don't you think though that mechanics of the #1 ranked cycling team would notice the actual tire width, and ignore branded width? The latter seems irrelevant. If Pog really wanted 28s, they could have installed perhaps the 25s.
Funny that the same year they announce they will cut their line-up for financial reason, it's suddenly better to make an aero/lightweight hybrid rather than two seperate bikes.
I also have a TCR so it's very interesting to hear the comparisons of the TCR and Arow. Thank you. Although - since you're going from rim break and narrow tires to disc and wide - that change alone makes a HUGE difference. I've ridden both 25c and 30/32c tires on my TCR (both tubeless) and that is a huge improvement in ride feel The bottom bracket of the Tavelo concerns me. I live somewhere with road conditions that destroy BB bearings quickly so I really want a good and easily serviceable system. (i really want a good threaded bb system so I can change the bearings myself and not rely on mechanics who I don't fully trust)
Preorder price of DARE VA-AFO frameset limited edition in Taiwan is 179000 NTD (~5500USD). For comparison, MSRP of Giant Propel Advanced SL frameset is only 108000 NTD (~3300 USD). TBH, price tag of DARE VA-AFO is pretty bold but it is a good thing that there is no price difference between Taiwan and other markets.
Chris, having seen your Eurobike cameos on other channels, I can only say I feel your pain. Trade shows are not a fun place to be, I did E3 a long time ago, and even with free reign to do what I liked, the only parts I really enjoyed were the evening events outside the main show. Hope you found some good people and conversations amongst it all!
Honestly chris, chatting to the UA-cam crew was the most enjoyable part. The brands really don't give a sh*t, so it's easy to get quite cynical about highlighting there products. Thanks for the comment man.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Speaking as a bike advocate for infrastructure and e-bike schemes in America, I'm glad to see so much e-bike stuff. Most of my miles are e-bike commutes, even though I do weekend rides on a gravel bike.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Sounds like the fellow UA-camrs made it worthwhile, so that's nice to hear. Did you get to experience any hospitality outside of the show? or maybe even inside the show? I don't know if the bike industry is similar to other industries, but the good parts for me when I went to these things were the bars and chill out areas inside the show area, and then there were organised hospitality in bars for the evenings, plus big parties at the end of the show. One I went to hosted by a major brand was pretty cool, well known band and singer performing, plus sideshows with fire dancers and acrobats, free drinks and thank you gifts for staff.
@nerocoaching you mentioned the rear shifting is not super smooth because of 3 different brands, L-Twoo derailleur, Incolor cassette and Shimano chain. How would you solve this problem while sticking to the L-Twoo groupset? What chain / cassette would you use?
About the L-Twoo rear d shifting, I am curious to know if the shifting gets crisper if Jesse swaps out the cassette to a Shimano 12 speed hyperglide cassette. I have used cassettes from China and experienced the same "less than ideal" shifting. It shifted and stayed, but it felt too crunchy for me and was incredibly annoying. Problem solved when I used the 12s shimano chain with a 12s shimano cassette.
Exactly, had the same experience, with a dura ace 12 sped cassette , I suddenly had the experience of a total different bike as the improvement was so stellar
Agree, I suspect the cassette that Jesse uses is causing poor shifting. I'm using L-Twoo eR9 with Ultegra 11-speed cassette and chain, and the rear shifting is incredibly smooth.
Jesse Coyle! I did some digging for you to squeeze out a few extra watts, but you may not like the idea. I reached out to the support team at Panda Podium regarding your wheelset. The narrowest section of your front wheel is at the actual hook/lip, which measures 31.3 mm. While the rim does bow to 34 mm shortly afterward, the representative at Panda Podium informed me that in order to conform to the rule of 105, in which the wheel is 105% of the tire width in order to maximally attach airflow at yaw, the tire size would need to be with respect to 31.3, not 34. In other words, your 32 mm front tire (as measured) is wider than the rim. A 28 mm front tire would likely measure 30 mm and would be more aerodynamic at 42 kph, but it would also be pushing the limits of what is safe to mount on a 25 mm internal rim width. It would also put you back on 28s, which would ruin the whole point of your experiment. By comparison, the Rival Rapide CLX II front wheel is 21mm internal, 34mm external without the curved hook on the lip, and maintains the rule of 105 with a 30 and 32 mm tire due to the narrower inner width and wider external. Maybe Chris can ask Hambini for his opinion on the tapered lip at his next lunch chat.
Chris, can you ask bike manufacturers why still a lot of them are developing bikes with the BB86 standard although according to a lot of mechanics this type of bottom bracket doesn't work well with SRAM dub?
The more I delve into these questions, the more the answers just seem to be "because that's the way we do it ... for now". Like I was saying about the timeline stuff, it seems to take years for changes to happen.
That would be crazy if Chris would find a moment to visit the Kross S.A. (at hall 9.0, stand C18a) - the biggest Polish bike brand. They recently released their new aluminium Gen 2 gravel bikes (Esker 2.0/5.0/6.0 2024) and carbon ones (Esker RS 1.0/2.0/3.0). There should also be an announced carbon road bike - Vento 8.0. All of these framesets (both alu and carbon) are made in Poland. From the East-Europian standpoint, they represent good value. I wonder how it looks in the Aussie's eyes. BTW, I'm not their employee, just a curious Polish guy. On the premium side, there's also a Rondo boot. And on the local market followers side - Romet (not worth the time). Cheers! Adam
Rondo builds some beautiful bikes, i have drooled over a HVRT in a local bike shop here in Berlin recently. However I don't like some of their new frame designs, but that might be just me.
Depending on where the Dare bike started.... if it was a super slow 220w or 215w or decent 210w to start with, 7% faster is approximately 15w regardless. That's anywhere from 195-205, which means either it's tied with the Aeroad, tied with the Simplon Pride or EVEN FASTER. My guess is it's Simplon Pride level... like 198w.
Bastion did not do any marketing but they charge a bucket load amount. The same 3d printed lug construction you can get from American builders or even Colossi starts to make similar structure structures.
I agree, they do have several future iterations of their products ready to go and building marketing campaigns for them for the next 3 to 5 years. I can attest to this for working in the golf industry. TaylorMade would do this very such thing with their drivers in irons. They had the heads under lock and key in as the years ticked away. They released product by product and then continuing developing more 3 to 4-years down the road.
The tyre width must surely be too wide for those rims? Are they not way wider than the rim, which reduces aero? I have the 55/50 CRW Wheels and I use 28mm tyres and they are borderline too wide for the rim.....
200 watts is probably the best number to test at for aero for the majority of road riders. It’s a smart move to test this. Realistic to the greatest majority.
@@UltimateTuner10 I think you're both right, and I think that's why a company like Trek might back off from making a true aero bike. The market is too small. In my bubble it's only the fastest racer people that want aero bikes. Other people know they would be faster to use an aero bike in most circumstances but it feels weird to be on this rocket ship looking bike if you aren't a rocket ship rider even if it makes slow people faster too.
@@discbrakefanif you arent riding at much more than 200w you dont need to be buying the aero bike for 3w savings. just buy the bike that you like to look at and can afford
@@haydenjames1391 Rarely are they aiming these bikes at someone who owns the previous model. It will be at someone looking to upgrade from their years old bike and these numbers are just to say “it’s fast”
According to my local dealer, Domane is the best selling road Trek by far, followed by the Checkpoint . Emonda was way down the list behind the Madone. Most people wanted the Endurance bike, with the crit/ fast group ride guys getting Madones. Emonda people were the exception
I think that's always been the case; the Domane is the normal/ everyday rider's bike of choice. I guess looked down on by the aero/weightweenies, but they're only a small % of actual riders.
It makes sense because they had two road race bikes, so that split the sales compared to the endurance & gravel models. It will be interesting whether the new model jumps up that list.
My 2020 trek Emonda SL was 9kg. I threw away all bontrager shit and upgrade to 11 speed Di2. The bike for an SL went down to 7.3kg with pedals. My new 2024 Emonda SLR frame is only 730g painted. This time I just purchased the frame, cos I didn’t want to go through the bullshit to lighten the bike. What I’m saying is the frame is light. It’s just the Bontrager components are what lets the brand down.
The industry has a pace of change to it and that pace is set by manufacturers but also sometimes by marketing departments drip feeding us and trying to keep our interest. Consumers are able to test far more tire widths and are further ahead with what works best for the average Joe on average roads.
surely the rear stays are strenghtened to accomidate disc brakes and torque from the hub? isnt it almost the perfect place for the hub to be transferring loads?
It's called planned obsolescence. Apple has been caught doing this for years with very minor limited repercussions. It is the reason UCI will demand certain weights or Pro to public product lines, but won't mandate any other industry standards like bottom brackets, hubs/axle sizes, tire clearances, gear spacings, 1x chainring clearances etc. This industry like any other is about infinite growth through sales and marketing, not "R&D costs" or "incremental gains." A bicycles is still just two triangles and two circles, how many different degrees and geometries can we really meaningfully change at this point? It's ridiculous. Thanks for exposing this scam!
I think this is a very cynical and inaccurate view of marketing. Planned obsolescence has happened, but believing that manufacturers can just pump out a new model that is light years ahead without all the testing and engineering that goes into it, along with certifications (and all this takes time) is fanciful.
On the Lezyne pump. Even World tour teams have separate pumps marked as not single one of them show same pressure. So if Jesse now changes pump it kinda invalidates the comparsion.
So, you've been running your bike's tire pressure wrong all these years? Just saying, the electronic pump might not be that accurate as well. I suggest you get a dedicated tire pressure gauge from Topeak.
sorry but Jessie information on the Madonde GEN 7 tour test results needs correction. the Madone was tested with 51 depth wheels it scored 207 watt. Tour did not publish results with deeper 60-65mm wheels. Assuming it would go to 204-205w. 2 w slower than the Cervelo S5. Trek/Specialized/Cannondale all came to same conclusion. watt penalty for aero bike vs all arounder is 5 watts BUT the aero bike is heavier/harsher/more expensive to produce.
With the 3d printed hub, I am pretty sure that they have extra material and it will then get machined to tolerance. Hambini has a habit of criticizing things he has not examined or tested. I was wondering how they handle the machining myself.
What happened to the listener's questions? I would like to hear Jesse's thoughts on the core body temperature sensors. There pretty expensive for what they are but seem to be everywhere in the pro peloton. Do you think there is any value in them or is it just the Norwegian's pushing it? I've been unable to find any good info, solid training data on them on forums and UA-cam. Most of it is from CORE itself. There claiming it's the new altitude being able to train in the correct heat zones. Something behind them or a gimmick?
Who presses one side and then tries to thread it? 😂 You should thread it first and whilst tightening it, it presses itself in. At least how I do it and it works great. Slap in some NTN bearings and you are good to go.
As we all know the Trek may have spun marketing, but, as we all know that it takes 2-3 years to redo a bike like that. So the dropping of sku's just happened to be at the same time as the bike markets are crashing..
The irony of lamenting the advanced preparation of the "2030 product line" while the consumer is sold soon to be obsolete stuff, then going on to complain about the trek madone for it allegedly being "rushed too market" has not escaped. Apparently, manufacturers will be damned by the commentariat regardless? 🤔
It’s obvious they designed this bike as the Emonda - bean counters said slash the number of SKUs - so they binned the Madone because the race team wanted a lighter bike.
Eurobike? Jesse's new bike? 2h? What a way to start the weekend!
Thanks for waiting this week mate, hope you enjoy the show.
@@ChrisMillerCycling I was so excited when I saw this video pop up
2h! the longer the better
Thanks for waiting a few extra days this week guys, hope you enjoy the show.
thats what she said
The Emonda do a better job on longer ride 😂
It is great for my z2 ride
Make it 3 we can make it
“Nobody cares about aerodynamics at 200 watts...” Oof! That cut deep, Jesse. Deep! 🫣😂
Haha
He didn't need to call us out like that...
Thats probably the median FTP for people wanting to purchase a gen 8 madone and if you want buy in from consumers you should probably market to them. I think is fine, I like that it's relatable.
He said in one of his videos a few years back “if you don’t have an ftp of 300 watts you’re a weak cyclist.”
@yourdeadjack The truth hurts. I'm in that sub-300W category as well.
Now from ACROSS THE GLOBE! The #1 cycling podcast, the only podcast that holds its speed and has a comfortable compliance to its stiffness!
This is what happened. There is nothing bogus about it or anything espcially cleaver.
1. Treks bottom line wasn't good enough after the Covid highs and the management started a cost saving program.
2. Cutting SKUs is a good way of increasing margins (google Trek internal memo SKU).
3. R&D team got a task to develop an all-arounder so that they could streamline the portfolio, thus the "new Madone".
4. Enter the poor marketing team that got assigned the task to spin this as improvement for the consumer even though the whole case is 100% about cutting costs for Trek and their partners.
Nailed it… Chris and Jesse are making it way too complicated. Trek is in deep financially after buying out too many local bike shops post covid bike boom and needs to cut costs. Producing one bike is cheaper than two. Simple as that.
Bingo!
@@DelTacobuenoi applied for a bit of casual work at one of my local trek stores and never got a shout. I know bikes inside out, build them, ride them, race them [some would question that last part]. Went in to that shop yesterday and the not fluent in English new rep didnt have a clue about the differences between an SLR or SL. In fact I don’t think he knew what i meant when i said SLR so he went to the computer. Trek, employ people who know what they are talking about, from a kiddy’s trike to the SLR 9 DA one Red.
The marketing videos looked great but on handling the shop SL7 i was underwhelmed by the weight but impressed that with Di2 Ultegra you can buy full race capable Masters bike for under $8500 Aussie dollar.
I’m going to respray my Factor Ostro Vam for a grand instead.
For what my 2 cents worth is, Trek designed the next gen Emonda with the hole. Then someone up at the top said “wait a minute, we need to reduce costs so let’s rebrand this as an all rounder climber Aero.” To me this is an Emonda just badged now as the Madone.
@@stevegriffiths605 Not sure what the "not fluent in English" bit has to do with it. Sounds a bit "bigoted/racisty" if I'm being honest. Kind of casts your "cool story bro" in a very different and unpleasant light.
Can’t wait until we eventually get a 24 hour pod from the Nero fellahs
It was nice meeting you, Chris. 😊
Great to meet you too Petr. The YT catch ups were my favourite part of the week..
With the crosswinds, don't forget to factor in the frame catching wind as well.
Love the show, love the honesty and backed up views.
Long story short some 30 years ago, yes before the days of mobiles and Insta. I was speaking to a Pro Motocrosser who had just gotten back from Japan and the Yamaha factory and he said the development was always 7 years ahead, even that long ago. I’m with Chris, give it to us now.
2 hour episode, midnight drop, watching while the TDF time trial! Let’s gooooo 😎😎😎
Thanks for eating this week mate. Hope you enjoy the show. ps. Remco was flying.
Kudos for the fantastic quality of the remote recording 👍🏻
Thank you for that. I tried very hard to get something of good quality out, I’m glad you noticed.
@@ChrisMillerCyclingMakes a huge difference, mate. There’s no excuse for UA-cam or Podcast to sound bad these days. It’s so appreciated
next week I want a 3h podcast that I can listen to when climbing Pico del Veleta in southern Spain.
Nah kidding, I love listening to the quiet early morning to much to overlay it with something else. Even your show :-)
looks like Jonas' S5 last year at the tour came in at 7.1kg with old sram red and 1x, so I could believe with the new red setup it could get to 6.8 or really close. Fully potential for Chris to get the S5 down to 6.8, but it would be a load of new parts lol. Rotors, groupset, wheels, saddle, pedals and seat post.
Nice seeing the SEKA bar tape wrapped top to bottom. Not enough people do it, but it looks so much cleaner than bottom to top and needing finishing tape.
People don't do it because their hands make the edges roll.
@sanj-m I've never ever had this issue. Wrap it properly (tight) and it won't happen.
The aero madone with isoflow cut out looked awesome, but the new slender madone doesn't look good.
There is team in Tour of Qinghai race starting tomorrow using Ltwoo on a Look bike...
Now that’s a tough race, it will sure test the groupset.
@@ChrisMillerCycling High elevation for sure! Just saw that St George are using Wheeltop
Evening Gents, I was in my local Trek shop today and they were putting together a new Madone SLR 9 AXS Gen 8 model in a ML which is like a 54\56 and it weighed in at 7.1 kg with the water bottles on the frame, no pedals which matches pretty close to what they are saying on their website. I really think the weights people are seeing are really dependent on the scale they are using.
Seems a bit contradictory on the Madone discussion in 2 ways:
1) Chris talks about how the bike brands already know whats coming up for 2030. Maybe not exactly that far in advance, but new frame design and testing and tooling prep takes years. Can not be a SKU-related design from Trek by your own logic that they planned this bike years ago, well before the internal memo to make cuts. However, it fully could have been designed as the next Emonda or Madone, then cutting the other model as a SKU decision. But even if the brand wasn't looking to cut SKUs, this was the bike we would have had at this moment in time, under one of those model names.
2) Just discussed that Jonas is climbing on an S5 aero bike where they found a way to get the weight down to the UCI min 6.8kg. If this new Madone shed enough weight that they can get it to 6.8 for the pro tour, then the Emonda serves no purpose any more. If they actually have one that is 7kg, then just putting climbing wheels on it would get you to 6.8. From a consumer perspective, it was never the bike regular casual riders should have been buying anyway, as it was slower than the outgoing Madone in almost all conditions unless you were only doing a mountain stage above 5-6% grade, and not descending down the other side. Source: bikerumor.com/aerodynamics-vs-weight-whats-more-important-tipping-point-pro-amateur-cyclists/ Trek provided some of their own data on testing Madone vs Emonda for this article too.
However, I do agree with you on the aero claims. I bet it'll be a couple watts slower than the outgoing frame, which was already not among the top performers anyway. Trek likes to talk up the Isospeed thing, but unless its providing some serious compliance/comfort, it sure doesn't seem to be providing any aero benefit.
At launch, in one of the UA-cam videos a Trek engineer confirmed that the new Madone was originally being developed to become the new Emonda before they changed direction.
Only just found out that the Emonda, Domane and Madone are all named after the Madone - the climb Lance would test on before the Tour. Emonda and Domane are just Madone scrambled differently.
“There’s no shiny objects in Hall 9” 🤣 Quote of the Vid
Jesse needs some colour in that bedroom. Maybe a Nero-patterned feature wall?
Nero wallpaper??
RE: tire widths. BikeRadar was able to go over Pogacar's TdF Colnago and measured his tire widths. Result? 32.6 rear and 33.2 front 😂 So 28 is being ditched by even the best cyclists!
but what are they branded as? the gp 5000 tt only go to 28mm. but they will be wider on the big enve internal and external width
@@Eirikkinserdal Don't you think though that mechanics of the #1 ranked cycling team would notice the actual tire width, and ignore branded width? The latter seems irrelevant. If Pog really wanted 28s, they could have installed perhaps the 25s.
ofc they know this 😅
@@Eirikkinserdalhe uses 30 front and rear as of last year regular not the tt version
I dont doubt Conti giving the TT compound in a 30mm tire to Pogi .. its just not 2030 yet, so the punters are not ready for it.
Funny that the same year they announce they will cut their line-up for financial reason, it's suddenly better to make an aero/lightweight hybrid rather than two seperate bikes.
100% .. it's actually laughable when you think about it.
Are the aero bottles even UCI legal for races?
Love you guys. Congrats on the new bike Jesse!
I was about to pull the trigger on the new Madone but after watching this show I think I’m gonna hold off 😂
Had a 2hr 45 min turbo session.😮💨
Logged onto UA-cam.🧐
Seen this 2hr long life saver!🤩
So what you’re saying is the show was 45min short 😂
@@ChrisMillerCycling I usually listen to Nero show and than to Cade media.
I also have a TCR so it's very interesting to hear the comparisons of the TCR and Arow. Thank you. Although - since you're going from rim break and narrow tires to disc and wide - that change alone makes a HUGE difference. I've ridden both 25c and 30/32c tires on my TCR (both tubeless) and that is a huge improvement in ride feel
The bottom bracket of the Tavelo concerns me. I live somewhere with road conditions that destroy BB bearings quickly so I really want a good and easily serviceable system. (i really want a good threaded bb system so I can change the bearings myself and not rely on mechanics who I don't fully trust)
madone analysis at the end was so good. that is your guys' bread and butter - metanalysis
Preorder price of DARE VA-AFO frameset limited edition in Taiwan is 179000 NTD (~5500USD). For comparison, MSRP of Giant Propel Advanced SL frameset is only 108000 NTD (~3300 USD). TBH, price tag of DARE VA-AFO is pretty bold but it is a good thing that there is no price difference between Taiwan and other markets.
Chris, having seen your Eurobike cameos on other channels, I can only say I feel your pain. Trade shows are not a fun place to be, I did E3 a long time ago, and even with free reign to do what I liked, the only parts I really enjoyed were the evening events outside the main show. Hope you found some good people and conversations amongst it all!
Honestly chris, chatting to the UA-cam crew was the most enjoyable part. The brands really don't give a sh*t, so it's easy to get quite cynical about highlighting there products. Thanks for the comment man.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Speaking as a bike advocate for infrastructure and e-bike schemes in America, I'm glad to see so much e-bike stuff. Most of my miles are e-bike commutes, even though I do weekend rides on a gravel bike.
@@ChrisMillerCycling Sounds like the fellow UA-camrs made it worthwhile, so that's nice to hear. Did you get to experience any hospitality outside of the show? or maybe even inside the show? I don't know if the bike industry is similar to other industries, but the good parts for me when I went to these things were the bars and chill out areas inside the show area, and then there were organised hospitality in bars for the evenings, plus big parties at the end of the show. One I went to hosted by a major brand was pretty cool, well known band and singer performing, plus sideshows with fire dancers and acrobats, free drinks and thank you gifts for staff.
I went with the 40/45 WRS Works, windy round here at times, and was worried with deep wheels.
You cannot 3D print a piano - because there is tension in the system and that is critically important. The same applies to rims and hubs.
Jesse looks quite under the weather, get a rest mate. Keen to hear more about the Tavelo bike tests.
@nerocoaching you mentioned the rear shifting is not super smooth because of 3 different brands, L-Twoo derailleur, Incolor cassette and Shimano chain. How would you solve this problem while sticking to the L-Twoo groupset? What chain / cassette would you use?
I was about to sleep, but Nero show dropped. Guess sleep is 2 hours delayed
Re the Dare frameset price…may need to clarify whether the USD 5,500 price is ex-works Taiwan or in US incl. duty/tarrifs. Seems pretty high.
The 2 frames from Seka have been available through a dealer in Malaysia for quite a while already...
Jesse, for your tyre pressure accuracy, get yourself a Fumpa Gauge. It's an Australian designed and made product as well... 😎
About the L-Twoo rear d shifting, I am curious to know if the shifting gets crisper if Jesse swaps out the cassette to a Shimano 12 speed hyperglide cassette. I have used cassettes from China and experienced the same "less than ideal" shifting. It shifted and stayed, but it felt too crunchy for me and was incredibly annoying. Problem solved when I used the 12s shimano chain with a 12s shimano cassette.
Exactly, had the same experience, with a dura ace 12 sped cassette , I suddenly had the experience of a total different bike as the improvement was so stellar
Agree, I suspect the cassette that Jesse uses is causing poor shifting. I'm using L-Twoo eR9 with Ultegra 11-speed cassette and chain, and the rear shifting is incredibly smooth.
The gen8 Madone XL reach and stack isn't that far away from the latest Defy XL dimensions, so the madone ticks 3 boxes, endurance, climbing and aero 😁
chris was so hyped in this episode
Heartbreaking to have to skip all the Eurobike spoilers because I’ve got tickets for Sunday 🤣🤣
These guys are Specialized fan boys!
Jesse Coyle! I did some digging for you to squeeze out a few extra watts, but you may not like the idea. I reached out to the support team at Panda Podium regarding your wheelset. The narrowest section of your front wheel is at the actual hook/lip, which measures 31.3 mm. While the rim does bow to 34 mm shortly afterward, the representative at Panda Podium informed me that in order to conform to the rule of 105, in which the wheel is 105% of the tire width in order to maximally attach airflow at yaw, the tire size would need to be with respect to 31.3, not 34. In other words, your 32 mm front tire (as measured) is wider than the rim. A 28 mm front tire would likely measure 30 mm and would be more aerodynamic at 42 kph, but it would also be pushing the limits of what is safe to mount on a 25 mm internal rim width. It would also put you back on 28s, which would ruin the whole point of your experiment. By comparison, the Rival Rapide CLX II front wheel is 21mm internal, 34mm external without the curved hook on the lip, and maintains the rule of 105 with a 30 and 32 mm tire due to the narrower inner width and wider external. Maybe Chris can ask Hambini for his opinion on the tapered lip at his next lunch chat.
Chris, can you ask bike manufacturers why still a lot of them are developing bikes with the BB86 standard although according to a lot of mechanics this type of bottom bracket doesn't work well with SRAM dub?
The more I delve into these questions, the more the answers just seem to be "because that's the way we do it ... for now". Like I was saying about the timeline stuff, it seems to take years for changes to happen.
Great talk, love the discussion about Trek and Classified. Good insight into bike industry. 😎
That would be crazy if Chris would find a moment to visit the Kross S.A. (at hall 9.0, stand C18a) - the biggest Polish bike brand. They recently released their new aluminium Gen 2 gravel bikes (Esker 2.0/5.0/6.0 2024) and carbon ones (Esker RS 1.0/2.0/3.0). There should also be an announced carbon road bike - Vento 8.0. All of these framesets (both alu and carbon) are made in Poland. From the East-Europian standpoint, they represent good value. I wonder how it looks in the Aussie's eyes. BTW, I'm not their employee, just a curious Polish guy. On the premium side, there's also a Rondo boot. And on the local market followers side - Romet (not worth the time). Cheers! Adam
Great to know as a fellow Polak
Rondo builds some beautiful bikes, i have drooled over a HVRT in a local bike shop here in Berlin recently. However I don't like some of their new frame designs, but that might be just me.
2hr long = saved to watch on TdF rest day
Depending on where the Dare bike started.... if it was a super slow 220w or 215w or decent 210w to start with, 7% faster is approximately 15w regardless. That's anywhere from 195-205, which means either it's tied with the Aeroad, tied with the Simplon Pride or EVEN FASTER. My guess is it's Simplon Pride level... like 198w.
Love that i can watch in „window mode“
Ok for Aero bike to replace a 2019 TCR Adv SL Rim brake..... What you going to switch to, Propel, Madone s gen 7, Gen 8, Van Rysel, Merida reacto?
I have the same issue Jesse had (no flat transition from bar to shifter) with Shimano (PRO) bars and Dura Ace brifters, unfortunately.
I’m riding Seka Exceed rdc. Paid 1650 usd for bike and handlebar in China. Great bike.
Bastion did not do any marketing but they charge a bucket load amount. The same 3d printed lug construction you can get from American builders or even Colossi starts to make similar structure structures.
The Scott Addict (Endurance) comes with 32mm Schwalbe Tires.
I agree, they do have several future iterations of their products ready to go and building marketing campaigns for them for the next 3 to 5 years. I can attest to this for working in the golf industry. TaylorMade would do this very such thing with their drivers in irons. They had the heads under lock and key in as the years ticked away. They released product by product and then continuing developing more 3 to 4-years down the road.
The tyre width must surely be too wide for those rims? Are they not way wider than the rim, which reduces aero? I have the 55/50 CRW Wheels and I use 28mm tyres and they are borderline too wide for the rim.....
Why did the speed blow your mind? It's an aero all rounder, and the TCR is basically a round tubes bike. The tcr is likely 230w in tour test.
200 watts is probably the best number to test at for aero for the majority of road riders. It’s a smart move to test this. Realistic to the greatest majority.
People averaging 200w aren’t buying aero bikes for the performance aspect
@@UltimateTuner10Do you average much more than 200W on most of your rides?
We aren’t talking about FTP here.
@@UltimateTuner10 I think you're both right, and I think that's why a company like Trek might back off from making a true aero bike. The market is too small. In my bubble it's only the fastest racer people that want aero bikes. Other people know they would be faster to use an aero bike in most circumstances but it feels weird to be on this rocket ship looking bike if you aren't a rocket ship rider even if it makes slow people faster too.
@@discbrakefanif you arent riding at much more than 200w you dont need to be buying the aero bike for 3w savings. just buy the bike that you like to look at and can afford
@@haydenjames1391 Rarely are they aiming these bikes at someone who owns the previous model. It will be at someone looking to upgrade from their years old bike and these numbers are just to say “it’s fast”
Need to get a nice budget ‘wheeltwooooo’ for my next errand running bike 😂
According to my local dealer, Domane is the best selling road Trek by far, followed by the Checkpoint . Emonda was way down the list behind the Madone. Most people wanted the Endurance bike, with the crit/ fast group ride guys getting Madones. Emonda people were the exception
I think that's always been the case; the Domane is the normal/ everyday rider's bike of choice. I guess looked down on by the aero/weightweenies, but they're only a small % of actual riders.
It makes sense because they had two road race bikes, so that split the sales compared to the endurance & gravel models.
It will be interesting whether the new model jumps up that list.
My 2020 trek Emonda SL was 9kg. I threw away all bontrager shit and upgrade to 11 speed Di2. The bike for an SL went down to 7.3kg with pedals.
My new 2024 Emonda SLR frame is only 730g painted. This time I just purchased the frame, cos I didn’t want to go through the bullshit to lighten the bike.
What I’m saying is the frame is light. It’s just the Bontrager components are what lets the brand down.
If you lived in Ballarat, you'd get excited about a new firmware too Chris 🤣
I'm sure part of the saving on Jonans bike is in the Frame Carbon layup
The industry has a pace of change to it and that pace is set by manufacturers but also sometimes by marketing departments drip feeding us and trying to keep our interest. Consumers are able to test far more tire widths and are further ahead with what works best for the average Joe on average roads.
surely the rear stays are strenghtened to accomidate disc brakes and torque from the hub? isnt it almost the perfect place for the hub to be transferring loads?
I think the tension arm for the hub literally connects to the disc brake caliper mount.
It's called planned obsolescence. Apple has been caught doing this for years with very minor limited repercussions. It is the reason UCI will demand certain weights or Pro to public product lines, but won't mandate any other industry standards like bottom brackets, hubs/axle sizes, tire clearances, gear spacings, 1x chainring clearances etc. This industry like any other is about infinite growth through sales and marketing, not "R&D costs" or "incremental gains." A bicycles is still just two triangles and two circles, how many different degrees and geometries can we really meaningfully change at this point? It's ridiculous. Thanks for exposing this scam!
I think this is a very cynical and inaccurate view of marketing. Planned obsolescence has happened, but believing that manufacturers can just pump out a new model that is light years ahead without all the testing and engineering that goes into it, along with certifications (and all this takes time) is fanciful.
That DARE aero bike is 🔥
From the UK 🇬🇧🖖
Tell you what the colourway of JCs bike looked rubbish on the website TBH but in real life (video via youtube) looks amazing
Keep them coming, love it
Jesse, get a cheap BBB tyre pressure gauge. Most on pump pressure are not that accurate anyway
Using the pump pressure gauge is like using a shimano power meter
On the Lezyne pump. Even World tour teams have separate pumps marked as not single one of them show same pressure. So if Jesse now changes pump it kinda invalidates the comparsion.
So, you've been running your bike's tire pressure wrong all these years? Just saying, the electronic pump might not be that accurate as well. I suggest you get a dedicated tire pressure gauge from Topeak.
sorry but Jessie information on the Madonde GEN 7 tour test results needs correction. the Madone was tested with 51 depth wheels it scored 207 watt. Tour did not publish results with deeper 60-65mm wheels. Assuming it would go to 204-205w. 2 w slower than the Cervelo S5. Trek/Specialized/Cannondale all came to same conclusion. watt penalty for aero bike vs all arounder is 5 watts BUT the aero bike is heavier/harsher/more expensive to produce.
Great episode
So now that Jesse has disc brakes on his special build, Chris says he's not interested in hearing about his brakes. 😀
With the 3d printed hub, I am pretty sure that they have extra material and it will then get machined to tolerance. Hambini has a habit of criticizing things he has not examined or tested. I was wondering how they handle the machining myself.
What happened to the listener's questions? I would like to hear Jesse's thoughts on the core body temperature sensors. There pretty expensive for what they are but seem to be everywhere in the pro peloton. Do you think there is any value in them or is it just the Norwegian's pushing it? I've been unable to find any good info, solid training data on them on forums and UA-cam. Most of it is from CORE itself. There claiming it's the new altitude being able to train in the correct heat zones. Something behind them or a gimmick?
I ride the 55/50 CRW Wheels and the front wheel is not good in any wind.
finally, what a long week
I walked into a trek store and couldn't justify $7000 for a bike so walked back out
Who presses one side and then tries to thread it? 😂 You should thread it first and whilst tightening it, it presses itself in. At least how I do it and it works great. Slap in some NTN bearings and you are good to go.
2 hours, oh boyyyyy!!!!
As we all know the Trek may have spun marketing, but, as we all know that it takes 2-3 years to redo a bike like that. So the dropping of sku's just happened to be at the same time as the bike markets are crashing..
I wanna hear Jesse's opinion on the Enve Bike winning the TdF gravel stage.
JV is riding a special carbon layup S5 with no paint.
Wow 2 hours, keep em coming! gift shear > gear shift 😅
Enjoy you podcasts❤
But Jesse, how does it hold its speed?
Hey Chris, any updates on your Xoss HR monitor?
Those Coyle wattage numbers.
We'll see how long Jesse's groupset holds its speed.
YES its sooo long
The irony of lamenting the advanced preparation of the "2030 product line" while the consumer is sold soon to be obsolete stuff, then going on to complain about the trek madone for it allegedly being "rushed too market" has not escaped.
Apparently, manufacturers will be damned by the commentariat regardless? 🤔
Trek like others cutting sku numbers, they are lucky to have Milan as a sprinter which hides the bikes aero weakness.
@21:35 I'm in the cool goo
Maybe a 3rd tyre pressure gauge is required...
I’d love to see you guys ride the Madone 7 and 8 and give feedback
Me too. I would love to spend some real time on the bikes, similar to what we have done with the TCR. I'm happy to be proved wrong
@@ChrisMillerCyclingas a Gen 7 owner, I want you to be right 😅
@@ChrisMillerCyclingcome and do some riding on the GC boys and make it part of a live podcast with an audience up here. You boys say it as it is.
It’s obvious they designed this bike as the Emonda - bean counters said slash the number of SKUs - so they binned the Madone because the race team wanted a lighter bike.