In the early '60's when I majored in Auto Mech, we were taught that the battery and its cables and connectors were the heart of the system and the first place to look when there is a problem - especially an elusive one. Dozens of experiences later, I can vouch for that wisdom. A Christie load tester is invaluable, as is a VOM. I'm impressed at the ease which you use your scan tools and other electronics. I see the benefit of using them but this problem and one I watched earlier about a shorted coil on a Blazer were both so basic that the problems would have been relatively easy to solve by following my first statement. And the bolt on clamps will do fine as long as - like other things - they are maintained correctly. One way to clean the cable strands is a small stainless wire brush. Good job. I've seen a number of your adventures and always enjoy your detective work.
Thanks for the comment Dee! I like using the simplest tools possible to prove the problem 100%. In this case since the problem was so intermittent, the 4-channel oscilloscope was my weapon of choice to monitor voltage drops at several locations :)
I wanted to reply to this because a mechanic of 28 years, of course you can find the problem much faster. I think what he is doing in his videos is giving you a concept on how things work for free. In today modern vehicles your basics work, but not the same. Can buses are and animal you didn't have in the 70s nor did you have electric power steering. So that said, the world has changed. I had a early 2000s chevy s10 that would not shift past third. 2 transmission later it was a bad ignition switch.
You may be right, but the failing part here was in fact the crimp on terminals. The bolt on does exactly the same job, as the bolts are crimping down the copper strands. The principle in such a connection is to create a cold welding, which very few mechanics understand.
@@CXensation Principle is the same, the execution with exposed wire on terminals that rot away isn't. I have yet to see any of these last beyond a year or so before they create the same problem as was repaired. They're good if you need a ride to the local autoparts store fix, but as I commented earlier myself you can get a decent hydraulic battery terminal crimper, terminals, and covers for the terminals for less than $100 to do a factory job, even better in cases like this where the factory job wasn't very good.
@@waynec6059 Im not saying you are wrong, but I work at an autoshop, and I installed these on several of our customers cars. I put a couple of these connectors on my truck 5 years ago and still are working great no problems to speak of.
I suppose that depends very much on where you live. Here in Tennessee where we get no snow or salt the bolt on terminals are no problem at all. However, they may corrode over time from salt if the vehicle lives in New York or somewhere else that gets a lot of snow and salt. Crimp connections clearly can fail too though, if they didn't we wouldn't be watching this video. I suppose a crimped and soldered lug that is completely covered in marine heat shrink would be the ideal solution, but isn't always practical or necessary.
I look at those terminals as temporary only. There are much better methods of repair. I’d rather use soldered on lugs bolted onto marine style terminals than these cheapie things.
Nice video Ivan. Voltage drop is important to understand for newbies. PS : I like reading them comments on these videos.Some serious people from different fields of engineering are giving tips and tricks.. You can even learn from reading the comments. 👍
I am electrician and I do a lot of my own Automotive repairs. I love watching these videos. You're very detailed at your videos and you are brilliant at repairs these videos are awesome thanks for doing them
@@helloitsme4139 Could be so that if it happens at 65mph, the driver wouldn't panic and flip the key all the way back to "remove" which might cause the steering to lock, leading to no ability to steer a still-moving vehicle.
@Todd Orton yes, the issue with the one that caused the accidents was with the detents in the switch itself, a swinging heavy keychain was enough to switch to the acc position, this would disarm the air bays and no power braking or steering
This one was shouting battery cable, I learned a long time ago, pre obd days battery cables can look great but not be good, always love a good diagnostic video
On our '00 Jimmy, whenever the battery died, you couldn't remove the key. Some bizarre GM trait there. Guess they're worried someone might steal your key? Who the hell knows what GM is thinking - I gave up trying to figure them out 25 years ago! Amazing how far parts quality has gone down the toilet. Just 8 years, and the terminals have HUGE voltage drops! Craziness. Great case study, Ivan. I have to say, in 30+ years of playing with cars, that's the first time I've seen water sizzle on a terminal!! What a great one! 👍🍻
Chev ground points....over the time you have taught me to go there first....ground ground ground...love my truck but always on ground alert. Underneath at frame,dash on ,left,rear left of motor on firewall. All can be nightmares...thank you for making me aware of a simple issue that drives computers crazy.
Thanks for a great job in figuring out the defects in GM's design of this vehicle and coming up with a simple solution, and confirming it. The real truth is that many small GM vehicles of this vintage have bad grounds somewhere, regardless of the power side issues. This is why you see 10 or so seemingly unrelated DTCs on these vehicles, including low power mode, ABS issues, etc., when customers complain of unusual problems, as in this case. P.S. The trucks of this vintage often had wires insulated with a soybean-based formula that rodents love to munch on; these wires also have intermittent missing strands inside the ordinary gauge wiring such as the under-hood wiring harness from the ECU/PCM to the throttle body, etc. (Missing strands mean insufficient capacity to handle more-than-minimal electrical loads on a circuit.) You find the problem if you perform the wiggle, touch & pull test, and either something cuts on and off when you test it, or the wires feel thin in places, and when you pull on the insulation on each side of the thin place, the wire comes apart in your hands. See D-Ray Smith's channel about his 2007 Chevy 2500 HD truck wiring problem, how he found it and how he fixed it - here's the link to Part 2 of his adventure showing his cure to the problem - ua-cam.com/video/o3_e57Y4gTY/v-deo.html.
Bootlegger It was not sold to retail buyers in the US. The only ones in the US are a few ex rental cars. They were a decent SUV if you could get a good price.
Looked like the PCM/ECM was mounted next to that battery... Was afraid for a time the heat off that terminal was going to affect that computer! Good detective work, as always, Ivan. Thanks!
Blinded by science! This is the stuff that interests me more than nuts and bolts, just like watching Paul and Eric and even Alton brown when it comes to cooking. Thanks Ivan!
good diagnostic video. The only thing I would do different is to use stud type battery terminals and use crimp terminals on the cables. I also use dielectric grease inside the crimp terminal, then crimp with proper crimping tool and then use heat shrink to protect the connection. I have seen many problems with those types battery terminals you used. Really enjoy your videos
The bolt on connections will work fine for years if properly cleaned and protected with a terminal sealer when installed. Crimp connectors can fail just as easily as demonstrated in this video and these were new connectors that were crimped to new wires. Crimp and solder is the best way I was surprised that Ivan didn't cut them open to demonstrate the problem. They should be using a marine grade tinned battery cable to avoid corrosion problems, just like all metal brake and fuel lines should be stainless steel.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I used marine grade terminals and custom 2 gauge wire when I had to redo my terminals and wiring. I also had to replace the large cable going to the alternator as well.
This was a really interesting case study! In depth with scope channels to get an answer on where the drop was actually occurring! Thanks again for putting this together for us!
It seems that ultimately the cause of the condition was environmental. Probably the best connection that can be made to a battery terminal is to crimp it and then solder it for the best possible connection. The solder will also effectively seal the connection, preventing salt water from entering the connection where it will cause corrosion. However, the connections are not typically soldered because there is the worry that the solder will flow further down into the cables, causing the wire itself to become a solid brittle piece, which can lead to the connection cracking (which again causes voltage drop). I'd say an effective compromise can be made by using the OE cable and adding marine heat shrink around the crimped connection. The glue inside the heat shrink tubing will effectively seal out the salt water, preventing the corrosion issue. The cable terminals are probably also lead-free, which only makes the corrosion problem more of an issue. The lack of sealing is a cost-cutting issue; the cables are only designed to make it past the warranty period.
Great to see you got yourself a separate thermal camera mate! The first thing you did when testing mobile phone-mounted thermal cameras was to DROP the stoopid thing on the deck! At least now you'll only damage your camera & not your phone AS WELL!
See this so many times! I like to use "commercial" (plant/truck) battery terminals, they have an M8 stud (M10 on the larger ones) and use copper tube terminals on the cable ends. You can get a decent hydraulic crimp tool for little money, YQK-300, does 10mmsq to 300mmsq, whatever that is in AWG.
@@aarongrabowski5620 38 years ASE Master technician. Instructor since the 80s. Auto shop owner. I now train for a major auto manufacturer. I dont sit behind a desk and pretend to repair vehicles.
Greg Meyer you said it. Working for a auto manufacturer. Thats why Ivan has a full time job. Auto manufacturers dont build cars to last. Quit kidding yourself. Its all done cheap cheap cheap. Sell your crap somewhere else buddy, i aint buying it
Great you found it. The volt dropping procedure wasn't quite perfect but didn't stop you from getting the correct repair. High load ( thick cable ) upto 0.5v is in spec Low load ( thin cable ) upto 0.3v is in spec Well done 👍
These days you can find really lowmile mint species in the scrapyard, with only one big snag: the electronics doesnt work ! In some cases they are even disposed off with all new cable harness fitted, still being no-goers. The average dealership mechanic cant get them running, as they can only think and go by the book.
I'm glad you didn't tin the wires before 'crimping' them down in the terminals. The solder is very soft and when you apply pressure, it will give over time making the connection loose again. So always go for either a crimp _or_ a soldered connection.
Couple of things Ivan: First that fault should be a recall for sure, as that is literally a _potential_ fire hazard. Second get a pair of descent bolt cutters. Well done on the diag.
When I worked at Vauxhall in the UK the Antara was a Captiva, I’m almost certain a recall did come out on the starter/alternator cables. Not sure if the Captiva got the same thing
Nice Ivan! I figured it was going to turn out to be a Power/Ground problem with all the different modules acting up at random times ... Not sure how long I would have spent chasing my tail until I got back to the main battery connections though! Good Lesson and great voltage drop case study!
You did a proper install! Cost is negligible on these Buy a handful Replace if necessary Used these on my 54 Chevy For 13 years Less electronics then Still use them today in a pinch Install proper Keep em clean
I had a Ford decades ago. The battery nearly melted down due to a missing secondary ground wire from the negative battery terminal. It caused the voltage regulator to keep trying to charge an already fully charged batter.
HEY FREGGIN WES, Ya those AUTOZONE TERMINALS ARE TOTAL GARBAGE. I USE MARINE OR MILITARY STYLE TERMINALS WITH GLUE SHRINK TUBING. Can you explain " SCOTCH LOCK " ?
@@NoWr2Run Scotch Locks are horrible products made by 3M. They were originally designed for splicing phone lines. They have no place in a vehicle, but you see them all the time.
Think you actually showed the increase in resistance when it stalled & you switched scope to battery ground. Previously you'd shown voltage drop between differences between alternator & battery positive about 2v then when you switched to ground scope showed the almost the same voltage as the drop shown from low voltage positive during testing 12.4v think. So increase resistance due to bad body ground caused increase in current on positive battery terminal resulting in heating up positive cable. Might have also checked with Amp meter on different positive & negative points before repair to see different in Amp draw at body ground, alternator ground (engine ground), positive alternator & fuse box main positive. Differences should or could shown which line was the issue. Awesome video!
Also if a cable is in question you can measure voltage drop across components at any easily accessible location while cranking. B neg post clamp to block B neg post to chassis Maximum voltage spec = 0.200 V (steady while cranking) If you exceed spec then narrow your voltage drop test to zero in on the problem
My wife has a 2012 Captiva with the V6; surprisingly decent and reliable vehicle. Hers had the traction control light and brake light flickering every now and again, then the check engine light came on a few days later. When we checked the codes I don't remember what the number was, but it was a fault with the transmission control module. Punched it in Identifix, and it suggested to check the battery. Battery tested marginal, replaced it; and code never came back.
Interesting video! This illustrates precisely why I won't buy a GM vehicle again. And it pains me to say that (being an automotive engineer in Detroit). This type of crap (complex electrical problems) seem to happen when the vehicle is out of warranty and will cost a small fortune to diagnose and fix. They want to add more bells & whistles, to an already improperly engineered electrical system.
Awesome repair Ivan! I would have tried to flip the original connectors and use flux (try to back fill solder into the original connections). I like that new infrared you got! Thanks for the great content.
Easy as pie to sort this out with just a DMM. With a high resistance at the connections, this will cause high temperatures as more current is being drawn or the alternator adding current, this just increases the resistance which shows as heat. The more current the more resistance the more heat The tiny amount of current being drawn by the LED only needs 10 milliamps to cause it to give off light. So bad or corroded connectors at the battery and the earth to the body will all cause this. Only need a DMM to diagnose this car. But this is fun watching the video as it was entertaining and a great time waster. Great video as always Ivan. P.H.D. and Eric O of S.M.A. are some of the best Auto Repair channels on THE TUBE.
Very nice camera. Great video! A quick non-intrusive way of seeing voltage drop using the scan tool on GM vehicles. Many of the modules have their own voltage parameter (hence the DTC for low voltage or module power). You can compare these to measured battery voltage. Here because of the system wide issues you knew to check the main cables. You can also vary the load using BCM special functions: Generator Regulator Setpoint. Often you can see where the voltage drop is with that scan tool if you are familiar with the vehicle.
Service information has a table of voltage specs at each generator regulator setpoint (see charging system description and operation) You can command the setpoint and see the the voltage drop while sitting in the vehicle during your initial scan
This problem also is common on Saturn Vue's (2008-2010). Will cause ECM & TCM to do all kinds of crazy things like lock/unlock car doors by themselves, turn radio on/off. stall engine, shifting issues, and more.
Nice Diag ivan. The grounds are all tied together in the scope anyway. So only one of them needs to be hooked up to the ground. Tying them to multiple grounds could be bad if you have a bad ground because it will try to transfer the ground current through your scope. This is also why you have to be careful when measuring a VR type sensor and a hall effect type sensor at the same time. You can ground out the VR sensor signal through the ground for the other sensor. I learned this when trying to measure a cam crank correlation where one was a Hall Effect and the other was a VR. I ended up just measuring half my VR sensor voltage on one lead which still gave me enough signal to see what I needed to see.
Most scopes yes, but not on the Pico 4 channel... Those are isolated grounds which is actually very convenient if you want different references for each channel 👍🙂
Another thing I've noticed my '12 and the wife's '10 Mazda 3 is the lowsy crimps at the battery terminals, yeah they are crimped but there is way too much sheathing taken off exposing the strands of the wire, I actually redid the battery cables for both with larger gauged welding cable and crimped ends and shrink tube, made a good difference as well in starting. I work as an equipment mechanic and shitty connections drive me bonkers, my 90 F150 I redid the battery cables and grounds all over the truck and i literally only have to bump the starter and it starts. Grounds and positives are overlooked and are stupid important. In a pinch those clamp type connectors will get you out of a pinch but I don't use them for a permanent fix as the wire strands are exposed. I like to use a hydraulic crimper and get a cold weld of the wire so you have a 100 percent connection at the terminals. Good job Ivan.
Good job Ivan! Battery terminals are so often neglected to the point of the vehicle giving you all sorts of malfunctions...Battery terminals and main body grounds should be inspected/cleaned/dressed at regular intervals, specially if the vehicle is in a high corrosive environment.
When I was an automotive instructor, I would wrap black tape around a battery terminal, and have the students try to find why the vehicle was a no crank, eventually I would remind them to do voltage drops of every connection, some still failed, but hopefully they learned something.
The Electrons current flowing from Negative to Positive obviously didn't like the Chinesium copper wire. I guess salt and impurities in the fake copper don't mix well causing the corrosion and thus poor connections. Job well done again Ivan👍👍
Nice fix. It was cool to see a different use case for a scope. I haven't had much luck with those crimp terminals though; those look like a newer design than the ones I had melt.
Another great video. You might also show ways people without those tools could troubleshoot. For example put in a DC voltmeter between the alternator and positive terminal to see the dropping voltage when there should be no drop
Hey Ivan, I love watching your video’s. I always learn something and it makes me wish I had a fraction of your knowledge. Well..... ok maybe it makes me wish I had a fraction of your knowledge, your pico and a couple of your scan tools. Lol. On a serious note, thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Good one i use the same battery terminals , but for a auto tech it's fine but again these terminals are temporary replacement parts thanks for your time .
Bernie thompson, whata guy! I usually have to watch his vids twice to understand them, I have made a nice long jumper so I always go to the battery earth
Get yourself some good cable cutters instead of struggling with those angled cutters! Love watching your videos though! It’s really given me confidence on how to utilize wiring diagrams. I still get lost in them but it’s gotten better after watching your videos
I watched Eric O. And he had a similar problem, I think it was also a Captiva. That was a rusted ground stud. So, I assumed immediately it was a ground problem.
Nice use of the "Predator vision". A Pico line on the control line of the alternator would show you that the PCM was demanding FULL OUTPUT of the alternator always and forever.. Would you recommend an Alternator also after knowing that it had been running Full Fielded for so long?
The techy diagnostics work but many of us have known to target battery leads any time battery performance is in question. The heat and change with movement is rather obvious. I would never put so much stretch on the cables. Lengthen them so the terminal clamps are not under tension.
Early in my driving experience at 2 am I was past curfew coming home from girlfriends house in downtown State College and as I stopped at a stop sign everything electrical went off. Had to call home and wake up my father to come and get me. Next day brought dads car mechanic friend with us and he stuck a screw driver between battery post and cable clamp, it made sparks, and he said the 1950s version of “well hey kid, there’s your problem”. No parts fix. Curfew issue took a little longer.
I've helped people with a dead car that won't start just by wiggling the battery terminals: they were loose and corroded. Real fix is to remove, clean terminals and battery posts, reinstall and grease.
I'm sending this video to my Chevy Dealer to give them a clue on how to mix my 2012 Chevy Captiva once and for all! Thank you Ivan! Would love if you provided a service advising women which car to buy that is reliable.
Even though the battery is " sealed " a small amount of oxygen and hydrogen will escape when charging , more if overcharging . It forms sulphuric acid . This gas in close proximity to the cable ends will start the corrosion cycle . If the cable ends are not totally sealed , the copper is a bullseye . Some OEM cables are crimped and have some copper exposed . I recently replaced a ground cable on a 2000 Honda . The block side was 50% eaten away from exposed copper and road salt . The replacement from Standard Motor Products cable was sealed at both ends . The dielectric grease should help protect it .
Remember back in the 70s, aluminum wires used instead of copper caused many house fires. Two dissimilar metals with different expansion and contraction rates (joints working loose) invite hot spots (ie, voltage drop) enough to catch house on fire. Common practice use antioxidant pastes and tighten screws (electricians or DIY with enough knowledge not to be electrocuted) at the electrical panel once a year. Similar situation with the copper cable and lead alloy battery terminal connections.
Ivan Do yourself a favor and get a nice pair of cable cutters. We use them all the time on boats Even harbor freight sells cable cutter pliers they are shaped to make cutting these cables easy and also does not flatten out the remaining end mike ttown
I knew it was a ground problem, when I saw the terminal Temps. No fancy tools needed. Pos terminal gets hot, check the ground. Simple thing I learned way back before engine's had computers.
Another good vid. However, a simple test meter could have been used to show the voltage difference between the battery post and true ground, plus between the Alternator and battery post. Sorry you did not mention this.
Hey Ivan! 😃✌ I use metal band cutters to cut heavy cable. Just thought It might help ya bro! Thanks for the great videos! If you do get snips..I use high price ones cause the cutting edge lasts for ever!
Factory crimps, but no solder with shrink tubing. Crimping is a tight mechanical connection, soldering is a tight electrical connection. With higher and higher charging system outputs along with larger cables on a low voltage, 12 volt system, you must crimp AND solder to maintain a strong, tight, no-voltage-drop connection!
Had a similar situation at an employer w an Audi. Veh batt had been replaced 3 times and the alternator replaced twice. Batt was in the trunk. Had one cable from batt to junction block, and block was part of second cable that went to the starter and over to the alternator. Turns out the starter connector was just a sleeve over the cable w a bolt eye that was just crimped down in the middle of the cable. Anyway, long story short, the crimps worked loose and started to burn the connection AKA excessive resistance AKA the voltage drop location...
Who would have thought that junction G105 could migrate to the battery ground terminal. :P Awesome work as always Ivan. Can you explain why (how) with loss of power the key stays captured in the ignition switch, thank you in advance.
Ivan. I may be wrong, but wasn't the Positive cable to be connected FIRST? Then, connect the Ground cable. Reasoning. If ground is connected, and your wrench touches ground, while connecting it, there should be a MAJOR arc. Right or wrong., Thanks. Never miss an episode.
What you want to do when working with a battery is to remove the hazard of a tool shorting to the vehicle body. I will assume a negative ground vehicle. Disconnect the negative first. Then when you are disconnecting the positive, if your wrench hits any part of the body, there will be no current flow. When installing a battery, for the same reason, connect the positive first with no danger of shorting to the car body, then finally connect the negative last.
At 12:06 I'm going move the scope lead to pin 4 or 5. Also interesting that the red 12 V led was illuminated. I can't tell for sure if the greens for 4 & 5 are dimly lit or off.
Ivan, neat video!! No wonder i don't see too many of them around here either. Now i know the answer why, haha. Wow those wires sure heat up so much. All that is down to ground problem! Awesome case study. I love your nerd bonus video. It's great to learn what you were looking and thinking. I get it now! Many many thumbs up!!
I would like to have seen a channel on Batt. Neg as well. So u would add voltage drop in positive with the voltage drop in the negative side and u would deduct from around thirteen. Which would probably b about the level at which those modules shut down. Correct? I like that amp measurement where u first tested ground cable amperage and then went to alternator amperage. Deduction? 40 amps going into battery. It seems all modern cars require at least 20 to 50 amps on the alternator while idling. That is what I usually c. I like to check that on each car just for fun. Having a dc clamp meter on your vom is a must.
Thats why its called a Captiva...it holds your key captive!!😃
In the early '60's when I majored in Auto Mech, we were taught that the battery and its cables and connectors were the heart of the system and the first place to look when there is a problem - especially an elusive one. Dozens of experiences later, I can vouch for that wisdom. A Christie load tester is invaluable, as is a VOM. I'm impressed at the ease which you use your scan tools and other electronics. I see the benefit of using them but this problem and one I watched earlier about a shorted coil on a Blazer were both so basic that the problems would have been relatively easy to solve by following my first statement. And the bolt on clamps will do fine as long as - like other things - they are maintained correctly. One way to clean the cable strands is a small stainless wire brush. Good job. I've seen a number of your adventures and always enjoy your detective work.
Thanks for the comment Dee! I like using the simplest tools possible to prove the problem 100%. In this case since the problem was so intermittent, the 4-channel oscilloscope was my weapon of choice to monitor voltage drops at several locations :)
I wanted to reply to this because a mechanic of 28 years, of course you can find the problem much faster. I think what he is doing in his videos is giving you a concept on how things work for free. In today modern vehicles your basics work, but not the same. Can buses are and animal you didn't have in the 70s nor did you have electric power steering. So that said, the world has changed. I had a early 2000s chevy s10 that would not shift past third. 2 transmission later it was a bad ignition switch.
Those bolton connectors will get you going but are prone to failure over time, sometimes it's better to make new cables with crimp on terminals
You may be right, but the failing part here was in fact the crimp on terminals.
The bolt on does exactly the same job, as the bolts are crimping down the copper strands.
The principle in such a connection is to create a cold welding, which very few mechanics understand.
@@CXensation Principle is the same, the execution with exposed wire on terminals that rot away isn't. I have yet to see any of these last beyond a year or so before they create the same problem as was repaired. They're good if you need a ride to the local autoparts store fix, but as I commented earlier myself you can get a decent hydraulic battery terminal crimper, terminals, and covers for the terminals for less than $100 to do a factory job, even better in cases like this where the factory job wasn't very good.
@@waynec6059 Im not saying you are wrong, but I work at an autoshop, and I installed these on several of our customers cars. I put a couple of these connectors on my truck 5 years ago and still are working great no problems to speak of.
I suppose that depends very much on where you live. Here in Tennessee where we get no snow or salt the bolt on terminals are no problem at all. However, they may corrode over time from salt if the vehicle lives in New York or somewhere else that gets a lot of snow and salt. Crimp connections clearly can fail too though, if they didn't we wouldn't be watching this video. I suppose a crimped and soldered lug that is completely covered in marine heat shrink would be the ideal solution, but isn't always practical or necessary.
I look at those terminals as temporary only. There are much better methods of repair. I’d rather use soldered on lugs bolted onto marine style terminals than these cheapie things.
Nice video Ivan. Voltage drop is important to understand for newbies. PS : I like reading them comments on these videos.Some serious people from different fields of engineering are giving tips and tricks.. You can even learn from reading the comments. 👍
I am electrician and I do a lot of my own Automotive repairs. I love watching these videos. You're very detailed at your videos and you are brilliant at repairs these videos are awesome thanks for doing them
I think the key not coming out is a feature, maybe the doors lock too? Maybe that’s why they call it Captiva?
Keyp tiva
In Chevy cars, The key tumber will not turn all the way back if power is lost, not sure why they would design it like that but it does
@@helloitsme4139 Could be so that if it happens at 65mph, the driver wouldn't panic and flip the key all the way back to "remove" which might cause the steering to lock, leading to no ability to steer a still-moving vehicle.
@@stanpatterson5033 that actually makes sense
@Todd Orton yes, the issue with the one that caused the accidents was with the detents in the switch itself, a swinging heavy keychain was enough to switch to the acc position, this would disarm the air bays and no power braking or steering
This one was shouting battery cable, I learned a long time ago, pre obd days battery cables can look great but not be good, always love a good diagnostic video
On our '00 Jimmy, whenever the battery died, you couldn't remove the key. Some bizarre GM trait there. Guess they're worried someone might steal your key? Who the hell knows what GM is thinking - I gave up trying to figure them out 25 years ago!
Amazing how far parts quality has gone down the toilet. Just 8 years, and the terminals have HUGE voltage drops! Craziness. Great case study, Ivan. I have to say, in 30+ years of playing with cars, that's the first time I've seen water sizzle on a terminal!! What a great one! 👍🍻
Chev ground points....over the time you have taught me to go there first....ground ground ground...love my truck but always on ground alert. Underneath at frame,dash on ,left,rear left of motor on firewall. All can be nightmares...thank you for making me aware of a simple issue that drives computers crazy.
Thanks for a great job in figuring out the defects in GM's design of this vehicle and coming up with a simple solution, and confirming it. The real truth is that many small GM vehicles of this vintage have bad grounds somewhere, regardless of the power side issues. This is why you see 10 or so seemingly unrelated DTCs on these vehicles, including low power mode, ABS issues, etc., when customers complain of unusual problems, as in this case.
P.S. The trucks of this vintage often had wires insulated with a soybean-based formula that rodents love to munch on; these wires also have intermittent missing strands inside the ordinary gauge wiring such as the under-hood wiring harness from the ECU/PCM to the throttle body, etc. (Missing strands mean insufficient capacity to handle more-than-minimal electrical loads on a circuit.) You find the problem if you perform the wiggle, touch & pull test, and either something cuts on and off when you test it, or the wires feel thin in places, and when you pull on the insulation on each side of the thin place, the wire comes apart in your hands. See D-Ray Smith's channel about his 2007 Chevy 2500 HD truck wiring problem, how he found it and how he fixed it - here's the link to Part 2 of his adventure showing his cure to the problem - ua-cam.com/video/o3_e57Y4gTY/v-deo.html.
Often called the Craptiva down here in Australia!
Goodone
Nz too🤣😂🤣😂
You beat me to this comment 👍
They're called that everywhere they're sold. GM has zero build quality these days.
Bootlegger It was not sold to retail buyers in the US. The only ones in the US are a few ex rental cars. They were a decent SUV if you could get a good price.
Looked like the PCM/ECM was mounted next to that battery... Was afraid for a time the heat off that terminal was going to affect that computer! Good detective work, as always, Ivan. Thanks!
Whatever
Blinded by science! This is the stuff that interests me more than nuts and bolts, just like watching Paul and Eric and even Alton brown when it comes to cooking. Thanks Ivan!
Just watched this video after viewing other fixes, glad I scrolled and found this one in less than ten seconds and, the key is out. Thanks greatly
good diagnostic video. The only thing I would do different is to use stud type battery terminals and use crimp terminals on the cables. I also use dielectric grease inside the crimp terminal, then crimp with proper crimping tool and then use heat shrink to protect the connection. I have seen many problems with those types battery terminals you used. Really enjoy your videos
Great suggestion! I;ll have to stock up on those :)
The bolt on connections will work fine for years if properly cleaned and protected with a terminal sealer when installed. Crimp connectors can fail just as easily as demonstrated in this video and these were new connectors that were crimped to new wires. Crimp and solder is the best way I was surprised that Ivan didn't cut them open to demonstrate the problem. They should be using a marine grade tinned battery cable to avoid corrosion problems, just like all metal brake and fuel lines should be stainless steel.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
I used marine grade terminals and custom 2 gauge wire when I had to redo my terminals and wiring. I also had to replace the large cable going to the alternator as well.
@@tiredoldmechanic1791 Folks used to coat battery terminals with vaseline or other grease to keep out moisture and corrosion.
those type terminal ends are completely fine, Period,
Fascinating diag and explanation Ivan. The hot positive lead had me fooled for a while too. Thanks!
I really like your calm, professional diagnosis and tone. Well done.
This was a really interesting case study! In depth with scope channels to get an answer on where the drop was actually occurring!
Thanks again for putting this together for us!
It seems that ultimately the cause of the condition was environmental. Probably the best connection that can be made to a battery terminal is to crimp it and then solder it for the best possible connection. The solder will also effectively seal the connection, preventing salt water from entering the connection where it will cause corrosion. However, the connections are not typically soldered because there is the worry that the solder will flow further down into the cables, causing the wire itself to become a solid brittle piece, which can lead to the connection cracking (which again causes voltage drop). I'd say an effective compromise can be made by using the OE cable and adding marine heat shrink around the crimped connection. The glue inside the heat shrink tubing will effectively seal out the salt water, preventing the corrosion issue. The cable terminals are probably also lead-free, which only makes the corrosion problem more of an issue. The lack of sealing is a cost-cutting issue; the cables are only designed to make it past the warranty period.
Great to see you got yourself a separate thermal camera mate! The first thing you did when testing mobile phone-mounted thermal cameras was to DROP the stoopid thing on the deck!
At least now you'll only damage your camera & not your phone AS WELL!
See this so many times!
I like to use "commercial" (plant/truck) battery terminals, they have an M8 stud (M10 on the larger ones) and use copper tube terminals on the cable ends. You can get a decent hydraulic crimp tool for little money, YQK-300, does 10mmsq to 300mmsq, whatever that is in AWG.
Ahh the good ol' Captiva has the key Captive :)
Great job Ivan, normally exhaust manifold is used for cooking 😂😂😂😂.
Thanks for sharing, best regards John.
That is a true back yard Bob fix. Those terminals are a temporary fix. Replace with correct terminal ends or replace the cables.
Why? This solution is permanent.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics time and corrosion. Seen hundreds of these cause no start issues. Cheap fix isn't the best.
Greg Meyer go back to your desk job. Ivan knows what he’s doing
@@aarongrabowski5620 38 years ASE Master technician. Instructor since the 80s. Auto shop owner. I now train for a major auto manufacturer. I dont sit behind a desk and pretend to repair vehicles.
Greg Meyer you said it. Working for a auto manufacturer. Thats why Ivan has a full time job. Auto manufacturers dont build cars to last. Quit kidding yourself. Its all done cheap cheap cheap. Sell your crap somewhere else buddy, i aint buying it
Great you found it. The volt dropping procedure wasn't quite perfect but didn't stop you from getting the correct repair.
High load ( thick cable ) upto 0.5v is in spec
Low load ( thin cable ) upto 0.3v is in spec
Well done 👍
These days you can find really lowmile mint species in the scrapyard, with only one big snag: the electronics doesnt work !
In some cases they are even disposed off with all new cable harness fitted, still being no-goers.
The average dealership mechanic cant get them running, as they can only think and go by the book.
I'm glad you didn't tin the wires before 'crimping' them down in the terminals. The solder is very soft and when you apply pressure, it will give over time making the connection loose again. So always go for either a crimp _or_ a soldered connection.
Glad you didn't have to make an hour long video (or two parts)for just bad battery cables!
Ha I cut it down quite a bit :)
Couple of things Ivan: First that fault should be a recall for sure, as that is literally a _potential_ fire hazard. Second get a pair of descent bolt cutters. Well done on the diag.
When I worked at Vauxhall in the UK the Antara was a Captiva, I’m almost certain a recall did come out on the starter/alternator cables. Not sure if the Captiva got the same thing
I have a craptiva. I am currently having electrical issues so will point this out to the mechanic. Great video really helpful.
That battery terminal is a fire waiting to happen. Love the diagnostic videos.
Nice Ivan! I figured it was going to turn out to be a Power/Ground problem with all the different modules acting up at random times ... Not sure how long I would have spent chasing my tail until I got back to the main battery connections though! Good Lesson and great voltage drop case study!
Wow Ivan, that was an amazing master class in voltage drop analyse......Schrodingers box can eat his heart out...😁😁😁
You did a proper install!
Cost is negligible on these
Buy a handful
Replace if necessary
Used these on my 54 Chevy
For 13 years
Less electronics then
Still use them today in a pinch
Install proper
Keep em clean
I had a Ford decades ago. The battery nearly melted down due to a missing secondary ground wire from the negative battery terminal. It caused the voltage regulator to keep trying to charge an already fully charged batter.
Excellent diagnosis. Thanks for the clear description.
Yup, this is now my favourite channel
There was a slight bit of underhanded love that got grounded. looking forward to the next
I hope you get more than 8 years from those terminals, but I have a feeling you won't even get close. I call them the Scotch Lock of battery cables.
Ya they don't look very good quality straight away I thought of what you call them craptiva
HEY FREGGIN WES, Ya those AUTOZONE TERMINALS ARE TOTAL GARBAGE. I USE MARINE OR MILITARY STYLE TERMINALS WITH GLUE SHRINK TUBING. Can you explain " SCOTCH LOCK " ?
@@NoWr2Run Scotch Locks are horrible products made by 3M. They were originally designed for splicing phone lines. They have no place in a vehicle, but you see them all the time.
@@WatchWesWork GOTCHA, THANKS, LOVE YOUR CHANNEL SIR.
Interesting! I'm sure I'll hear back from the customer in a few years when they go bad 👍
Think you actually showed the increase in resistance when it stalled & you switched scope to battery ground. Previously you'd shown voltage drop between differences between alternator & battery positive about 2v then when you switched to ground scope showed the almost the same voltage as the drop shown from low voltage positive during testing 12.4v think. So increase resistance due to bad body ground caused increase in current on positive battery terminal resulting in heating up positive cable. Might have also checked with Amp meter on different positive & negative points before repair to see different in Amp draw at body ground, alternator ground (engine ground), positive alternator & fuse box main positive. Differences should or could shown which line was the issue. Awesome video!
Also if a cable is in question you can measure voltage drop across components at any easily accessible location while cranking.
B neg post clamp to block
B neg post to chassis
Maximum voltage spec = 0.200 V (steady while cranking)
If you exceed spec then narrow your voltage drop test to zero in on the problem
My wife has a 2012 Captiva with the V6; surprisingly decent and reliable vehicle. Hers had the traction control light and brake light flickering every now and again, then the check engine light came on a few days later. When we checked the codes I don't remember what the number was, but it was a fault with the transmission control module. Punched it in Identifix, and it suggested to check the battery. Battery tested marginal, replaced it; and code never came back.
Interesting video! This illustrates precisely why I won't buy a GM vehicle again. And it pains me to say that (being an automotive engineer in Detroit). This type of crap (complex electrical problems) seem to happen when the vehicle is out of warranty and will cost a small fortune to diagnose and fix. They want to add more bells & whistles, to an already improperly engineered electrical system.
Awesome repair Ivan! I would have tried to flip the original connectors and use flux (try to back fill solder into the original connections). I like that new infrared you got! Thanks for the great content.
Easy as pie to sort this out with just a DMM. With a high resistance at the connections, this will cause high temperatures as more current is being drawn or the alternator adding current, this just increases the resistance which shows as heat. The more current the more resistance the more heat
The tiny amount of current being drawn by the LED only needs 10 milliamps to cause it to give off light.
So bad or corroded connectors at the battery and the earth to the body will all cause this. Only need a DMM to diagnose this car. But this is fun watching the video as it was entertaining and a great time waster.
Great video as always Ivan.
P.H.D. and Eric O of S.M.A. are some of the best Auto Repair channels on THE TUBE.
What would you measure with the DMM? Sorry for wasting your time 😂
I hate those strand you later connectors but, you fixed it. Thanks Ivan
Very nice camera.
Great video!
A quick non-intrusive way of seeing voltage drop using the scan tool on GM vehicles. Many of the modules have their own voltage parameter (hence the DTC for low voltage or module power). You can compare these to measured battery voltage.
Here because of the system wide issues you knew to check the main cables.
You can also vary the load using BCM special functions: Generator Regulator Setpoint.
Often you can see where the voltage drop is with that scan tool if you are familiar with the vehicle.
Service information has a table of voltage specs at each generator regulator setpoint (see charging system description and operation)
You can command the setpoint and see the the voltage drop while sitting in the vehicle during your initial scan
I was more focused on the fact that you couldn't remove your key but I did love the video thanks
This problem also is common on Saturn Vue's (2008-2010). Will cause ECM & TCM to do all kinds of crazy things like lock/unlock car doors by themselves, turn radio on/off. stall engine, shifting issues, and more.
Nice Diag ivan. The grounds are all tied together in the scope anyway. So only one of them needs to be hooked up to the ground. Tying them to multiple grounds could be bad if you have a bad ground because it will try to transfer the ground current through your scope. This is also why you have to be careful when measuring a VR type sensor and a hall effect type sensor at the same time. You can ground out the VR sensor signal through the ground for the other sensor. I learned this when trying to measure a cam crank correlation where one was a Hall Effect and the other was a VR. I ended up just measuring half my VR sensor voltage on one lead which still gave me enough signal to see what I needed to see.
Most scopes yes, but not on the Pico 4 channel... Those are isolated grounds which is actually very convenient if you want different references for each channel 👍🙂
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Good to know. My first 4425 is on the way, 2-3 weeks is what AES said! We will see how soon it gets here.
@@frugalprepper you will love it!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics У PICO раздельная масса не каждом канале?
Another thing I've noticed my '12 and the wife's '10 Mazda 3 is the lowsy crimps at the battery terminals, yeah they are crimped but there is way too much sheathing taken off exposing the strands of the wire, I actually redid the battery cables for both with larger gauged welding cable and crimped ends and shrink tube, made a good difference as well in starting. I work as an equipment mechanic and shitty connections drive me bonkers, my 90 F150 I redid the battery cables and grounds all over the truck and i literally only have to bump the starter and it starts. Grounds and positives are overlooked and are stupid important. In a pinch those clamp type connectors will get you out of a pinch but I don't use them for a permanent fix as the wire strands are exposed. I like to use a hydraulic crimper and get a cold weld of the wire so you have a 100 percent connection at the terminals. Good job Ivan.
Good job Ivan! Battery terminals are so often neglected to the point of the vehicle giving you all sorts of malfunctions...Battery terminals and main body grounds should be inspected/cleaned/dressed at regular intervals, specially if the vehicle is in a high corrosive environment.
Another fine job young man!!!!! Keep em coming please!!!!
Thanks for sharing Ivan! Subscribed!
Welcome to the channel Glenn!
When I was an automotive instructor, I would wrap black tape around a battery terminal, and have the students try to find why the vehicle was a no crank, eventually I would remind them to do voltage drops of every connection, some still failed, but hopefully they learned something.
Ivan is a awesome mechanic. Love your videos. You and Eric O. Have some best car repair videos!!!!!!!!
The Electrons current flowing from Negative to Positive obviously didn't like the Chinesium copper wire. I guess salt and impurities in the fake copper don't mix well causing the corrosion and thus poor connections.
Job well done again Ivan👍👍
I'm saving up for my PICO , can't buy any new toys right yet , but love the Thermal Camera , Love the video also ! Thanks Ivan
Nice fix. It was cool to see a different use case for a scope. I haven't had much luck with those crimp terminals though; those look like a newer design than the ones I had melt.
Another great video. You might also show ways people without those tools could troubleshoot. For example put in a DC voltmeter between the alternator and positive terminal to see the dropping voltage when there should be no drop
Hey Ivan, I love watching your video’s. I always learn something and it makes me wish I had a fraction of your knowledge. Well..... ok maybe it makes me wish I had a fraction of your knowledge, your pico and a couple of your scan tools. Lol. On a serious note, thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Awesome video! Dun dun DUN!!🎵🎶 The notorious "Voltage Drop"😳😱
Good one i use the same battery terminals , but for a auto tech it's fine but again these terminals are temporary replacement parts thanks for your time .
Bernie thompson, whata guy! I usually have to watch his vids twice to understand them, I have made a nice long jumper so I always go to the battery earth
Awesome young man, absolutely awesome.....
Get yourself some good cable cutters instead of struggling with those angled cutters! Love watching your videos though! It’s really given me confidence on how to utilize wiring diagrams. I still get lost in them but it’s gotten better after watching your videos
I watched Eric O. And he had a similar problem, I think it was also a Captiva. That was a rusted ground stud. So, I assumed immediately it was a ground problem.
Hi Ivan. Any clue as to where you purchase your cables from? Another great video by the way. I almost seen them ALL!!! Thanks.
Nice use of the "Predator vision".
A Pico line on the control line of the alternator would show you that the PCM was demanding FULL OUTPUT of the alternator always and forever..
Would you recommend an Alternator also after knowing that it had been running Full Fielded for so long?
The techy diagnostics work but many of us have known to target battery leads any time battery performance is in question. The heat and change with movement is rather obvious. I would never put so much stretch on the cables. Lengthen them so the terminal clamps are not under tension.
Nice ! Ivan isn't amazing how many critics there are in this world !
Early in my driving experience at 2 am I was past curfew coming home from girlfriends house in downtown State College and as I stopped at a stop sign everything electrical went off. Had to call home and wake up my father to come and get me. Next day brought dads car mechanic friend with us and he stuck a screw driver between battery post and cable clamp, it made sparks, and he said the 1950s version of “well hey kid, there’s your problem”. No parts fix. Curfew issue took a little longer.
I've helped people with a dead car that won't start just by wiggling the battery terminals: they were loose and corroded. Real fix is to remove, clean terminals and battery posts, reinstall and grease.
I'm sending this video to my Chevy Dealer to give them a clue on how to mix my 2012 Chevy Captiva once and for all! Thank you Ivan! Would love if you provided a service advising women which car to buy that is reliable.
Late model Toyotas and Subarus are just about the only reliable cars left these days haha
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Those are both much loved in Alaska...now I know why! Thank you.
Two volts will sure make a radio go nuts. Surprised you did not do current tests.
And never underestimate the power of a dirty battery to reek havoc on a system!
Even though the battery is " sealed " a small amount of oxygen and hydrogen will escape when charging , more if overcharging . It forms sulphuric acid . This gas in close proximity to the cable ends will start the corrosion cycle . If the cable ends are not totally sealed , the copper is a bullseye . Some OEM cables are crimped and have some copper exposed . I recently replaced a ground cable on a 2000 Honda . The block side was 50% eaten away from exposed copper and road salt . The replacement from Standard Motor Products cable was sealed at both ends . The dielectric grease should help protect it .
You will snap those Klein diagonal snips if you use them like that. Upgrade to a set of Klein 9" lineman pliers. They are beef for cutting.
Remember back in the 70s, aluminum wires used instead of copper caused many house fires. Two dissimilar metals with different expansion and contraction rates (joints working loose) invite hot spots (ie, voltage drop) enough to catch house on fire. Common practice use antioxidant pastes and tighten screws (electricians or DIY with enough knowledge not to be electrocuted) at the electrical panel once a year. Similar situation with the copper cable and lead alloy battery terminal connections.
Awesome content and extremely thorough! Always look forward to your videos!
Ivan
Do yourself a favor and get a nice pair of cable cutters.
We use them all the time on boats
Even harbor freight sells cable cutter pliers
they are shaped to make cutting these cables easy and also does not flatten out the remaining end
mike ttown
You don't mess with them, you install new cables.
Yeah, this repair was actually somewhat hard to watch. New cables with better connectors imo, but that’s just what I would do.
You said dealer replaced battery...looks like they failed at the root cause of the problem. Good thing you are EINSTEINS cousin👍🇨🇦
I knew it was a ground problem, when I saw the terminal Temps. No fancy tools needed. Pos terminal gets hot, check the ground. Simple thing I learned way back before engine's had computers.
One thing I've learned in my 60 plus years is it's better to remove the negative cable first and reinstall the negative last.
Something I've seen you do many times which bewilders me. You find a real problem, but don't fix it straight away.
Solder on connectors at battery makes a much more reliable fix. but good job using scope to show exact problem and correlation of bad connections.
Another good vid. However, a simple test meter could have been used to show the voltage difference between the battery post and true ground, plus between the Alternator and battery post. Sorry you did not mention this.
Hey Ivan! 😃✌ I use metal band cutters to cut heavy cable. Just thought It might help ya bro! Thanks for the great videos! If you do get snips..I use high price ones cause the cutting edge lasts for ever!
Factory crimps, but no solder with shrink tubing. Crimping is a tight mechanical connection, soldering is a tight electrical connection. With higher and higher charging system outputs along with larger cables on a low voltage, 12 volt system, you must crimp AND solder to maintain a strong, tight, no-voltage-drop connection!
Had a similar situation at an employer w an Audi. Veh batt had been replaced 3 times and the alternator replaced twice. Batt was in the trunk. Had one cable from batt to junction block, and block was part of second cable that went to the starter and over to the alternator. Turns out the starter connector was just a sleeve over the cable w a bolt eye that was just crimped down in the middle of the cable. Anyway, long story short, the crimps worked loose and started to burn the connection AKA excessive resistance AKA the voltage drop location...
Who would have thought that junction G105 could migrate to the battery ground terminal. :P Awesome work as always Ivan. Can you explain why (how) with loss of power the key stays captured in the ignition switch, thank you in advance.
Ivan. I may be wrong, but wasn't the Positive cable to be connected FIRST? Then, connect the Ground cable. Reasoning. If ground is connected, and your wrench touches ground, while connecting it, there should be a MAJOR arc. Right or wrong., Thanks. Never miss an episode.
What you want to do when working with a battery is to remove the hazard of a tool shorting to the vehicle body. I will assume a negative ground vehicle. Disconnect the negative first. Then when you are disconnecting the positive, if your wrench hits any part of the body, there will be no current flow. When installing a battery, for the same reason, connect the positive first with no danger of shorting to the car body, then finally connect the negative last.
Awesome video thanks for sharing. Hey, If you were going to buy a new pickup truck. Which truck would you buy?
I would never buy a brand new anything lol... Waste of money!
At 12:06 I'm going move the scope lead to pin 4 or 5. Also interesting that the red 12 V led was illuminated. I can't tell for sure if the greens for 4 & 5 are dimly lit or off.
Ivan, neat video!! No wonder i don't see too many of them around here either. Now i know the answer why, haha. Wow those wires sure heat up so much. All that is down to ground problem! Awesome case study. I love your nerd bonus video. It's great to learn what you were looking and thinking. I get it now! Many many thumbs up!!
Glad you enjoyed the nerdy bonus footage Josh haha
Nice ivan. Have you ever used copper coat? Might be good for the pressure connections.
I would like to have seen a channel on Batt. Neg as well. So u would add voltage drop in positive with the voltage drop in the negative side and u would deduct from around thirteen. Which would probably b about the level at which those modules shut down. Correct? I like that amp measurement where u first tested ground cable amperage and then went to alternator amperage. Deduction? 40 amps going into battery. It seems all modern cars require at least 20 to 50 amps on the alternator while idling. That is what I usually c. I like to check that on each car just for fun. Having a dc clamp meter on your vom is a must.
Fantastic Fix Ivan and minimal parts Required :)
Excellent repair and information! Thank you.
Excellent. Diagnostic. Amigo nice video