To those who are not Americans, my response to Dr. Chapp may seem arrogant or dismissive, however, to be an American today necessarily means that we are subject to the will of others due to the secular revolution. In this respect, I am speaking of the will as one of the powers of the soul; the soul has intellect and will. Now Dr. Chapp may say that Vatican II convened to move us beyond the constraints of Scholastic but to understand the soul as revealed through Scholasticism is crucial to make sense of the cultural revolution which has now spread beyond the confines of America. We are taught by the Scholastics that the intellect perceives reality- what is and its goal is truth; the wil identifies the good and its goal is the highest good which is God. However, can we be drawn by the will to things which are not good? Most definitely- for example, I want just one more piece of cake- it is sooo good! And yes, it is good to the taste and satisfying to the body. However, the intellect reminds us that we are overweight and developing Type II diabetes and as such, this is nt actually good for us. The Scholastics teach that the will must always be subject to the intellect which perceives reality. Without a will subordinated to the intellect, we become slaves to whatever the will perceives as a good in this moment. In America, more than a generation ago, the dominating force of the will became the standard by which many lived their lives giving rise to men who now claim to women, children claiming to be cats, etc... if I will it, it is so! The destructive force of the individual will is plainly evident in our culture, but the Faith has been the greatest victim of this error. By the time I was a teenager, the erosion of truth by the force of will began to empty the pews. It was not Vatican II that caused the damage, but those claiming the "spirit of Vatican II" who, ruled by their will abandoned the intellectual pursuit f truth. Thus, growing up in America has created tension between man's will and truth. Most today try to navigate these stormy waters by applying relativism: you have your truth, I have mine so as to somehow close the gap and calm the stormy waters. However, there can never be peace without truth and while I can understand Dr. Chapp's desire to calm the stormy waters enveloping this Pontificate, my response would still be, there can be no peace without truth! The Scriptures, Vatican II documents, traditions of the Church and the previous pontficates have provided our intellect with the Truth and it cannot be denied that Pope has broken with all. Trying to explain it or mollify our uneasiness with this Pontificate will not appease the problem, only the Truth can bring peace to our souls.
I think it is actually deeper still than this. Reading the Word of God, having a vision of Jesus Christ, having a miraculous healing, and having charismatic experiences have taken it past the will and intellect for me. I have seen so many things that are spiritual and cannot be easily understood with the intellect and have nothing to do with human will. There are voices in your head. Most people identify any voice they hear in their head as their own, but it isn't necessarily. There are angels, demons, God and the Devil. Once you experience a clear conversation with the spiritual world your will, heart and mind can literally be changed like St Paul's did on the road to Damascus. Reading the Bible should be a daily practice along with prayer, it is the Word of God. The experience I had came through reading the Bible at a point of suffering and reaching out to God in desperation, seeking Him with everything I had. There is an orthodox podcast called Ancient Faith Radio I believe that very well describes the worldview of the early Church and what is expressed in the Scriptures, and the CCC. Scholasticism is GREATLY missing in this regard. I think it took away the correct understanding of the body, mind, and soul. Some things cannot be grasped with the mind but the soul. These three coming into agreement: the body, the mind and the soul with Jesus can give a peace beyond understanding. The will as you described (the flesh) is the body and many people try then to align their mind to the body to justify all sorts of sins. But the souls always tugs at them unless they are too far gone. If you talk to people in grave sin or supporting, it and use reason and pray(soul) eventually, they will lash out at you, and you will see the spiritual come out. In your own life this can be knows by what draws you into sorrow and repentance. It can also be known by what draws you to living a holy, chaste, sacrificial life. But God, our angel and angels are always at work, but we have to listen and discern between them and the enemy. This is where we need a good relationship with the Holy Spirit how spoke through the prophets and inspires the Scriptures (John 17). It is by our soul we can know the Truth reading the Word of God and recognize the Holy Spirit speaking to us. Maranatha
The Church on the eve of Vatican II had many problems, but the solution was not the nonsense that we got after the Council. What is desperately needed is a re-enchantment and a reengagement with the fullness of the liturgy.
VII is a symptom, not the disease. Symptoms must be addressed though, as the disease needs rooting out. The reason for Latin is the fix: holiness, and not banality.
It was said that orthodoxy does not guarantee orthopraxy, but let that lead us to the error of elevating praxy over truth which seems to be what is currently happening in Rome. The entire stream was thought-provoking. Thank you Catholic Unscripted (and Larry Chapp).
As someone that was married to a muslim and also dated indian men (one hindu , one sikh) I can confirm this. I have experienced the differences the hard way: heartache and bruises….
As a Catholic of Indian heritage I don't understand the purpose of trying to find commonality with other religions. In India it is plainly evident that the Holy Spirit is actively bringing people from Hinduism and Islam to Catholicism or to other Christian denominations. Meanwhile, what are we trying to achieve with these gimmicks? We need to let the lord work.
There was a golden age in Philosophy (around 500 B.C.) where all the main cultures independently developed an understanding that there was an invisible world - besides the material world - of archetypes. Each culture was progressing in understanding God. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Catholic exceptionalists who won't acknowledge that God - truth - is found in pagan cultures, together with errors about polytheism. Most critiques miss the nuanced nature of different cultures and jump to demands of the perfect way to salvation - the Catholic Church.
“It’s not Latin that will save the world, it’s holiness.”Please Catholics, understand the need for the Council. It’s attempts to connect the faith to the culture was largely high jacked by certain dark characters in the implementation post council. The need was and is real. Benedict attempted a reform of the reform. It will happen.
Amen, but...The purpose of the mass is to offer sacrifice, not to evangelize. You can still give us a vernacular evangelical service with no sacrifice at all. Make it mandatory even. Just don't replace the mass with it. Replace vespers with it, maybe, tho. Vespers is already begging to become something relevant.
Anyone may attend the Ordinariate Mass! Come one, come all! I am a former Anglican hermit, now happily a Catholic Diocesan Hermit. Though a member of the Ordinariate and I was professed in the Archdiocese of Indianapolis.
Fabulous discussion. Let's do this again and include Dr. Peter Kwasniewski in the group. He's a very articulate trad Catholic and could add some more spice to the conversation.
Not so Mark regarding what people like about the TLM is not just the reverence. It's about our posture with respect to the Trinity. Recognizing our sinfulness and begging God for His mercy. It's about celebrating and longing to be united in the Trinity. The TLM has little to do with my relationship to my fellow catholics in the pew. Lastly, I'll mention that the TLM is the worahip that sustained my ancestors, which has been cut off. Of course, there's more.
Neither traditionalism or modernism in itself can lead to holiness but traditionalism allows the growth of holiness by the quietness of its liturgy whereas modernism drowns out holiness by its noise, confusion and division.
you are on to something Katherine; the very fact lay people cannot ask the hard questions and get some answers with concerns. when i email a concern to clergy i rarely get an answer.
At Vatican II, the documents are so joyful and full of hope and love, written at a time when nuclear war looked very possible. In the Council the Church turned her face to Jerusalem, and the Passion, IMHO.
On this notion of the Fatima prayer supposedly confirming universalism. We can turn it around on those who lean towards Universalism by asking, “Why pray for the sinners of the world if it's a guarantee?” On that note - If it's a given that the Pope will never-failingly uphold the Catholic faith, why do we pray that he does in the litany used at Episcopal Consecration?
Just as we have popespainers we have Vatican2splainers. Archbishop Lefbvre said the documents that all have different levels of authority and the bishops had no mandate to define doctrine...deliberately includes ambiguous phrases that were put there to be exploited and pushed way beyond any limit in the implementation of the Council AFTER the bishops went home. Obedience and submission was instilled in Catholics and it was and is exploited by the heterodox in authority. I was born in 1961 and experienced the car crash as a passenger driven by the Papacy, bishops and clergy particularly those heterodox who pushed the accelerator. The anger, shock, dismay and total distrust of being trapped in a Church doing this is traumatic.
Scott Hahn has produced a new Bible for catholics, where the footnotes link old to new testament andvavoid the critical doubts which imbue the Jerusalem bible.
Whats the difference between Pope Francis's Jungianism as Gavin describes, and Jordan Peterson's Jungianism? Peterson often critises Pope Francis for being too woke however the way he answers the "belief" question is also worth scrutiny. Furthermore Gavin mentioned said he used to part of that worldview and it would be nice if he gave a deep dive into how he moved out of that - if he hasnt already.
The difference as I see it is that Pope Francis' if it is Jungianism is tied to globalism and left leaning views while Peterson's aren't and are more right leaning in some areas (not all).
The purpose of V2 may have been to engage with rather than capitulate to modernism, but the result was still essentially a capitulation. The current state of the church is evidence enough of that. The church no longer stands as a bulwark or a corrective to the culture. Instead, it continually bends its rules to become ever more accommodating. This is likely to continue until the church has no relevance left, inasmuch as it will have simply become an echo of the prevailing culture. Look at what's happened to the Mainline Protestant churches. They're irrelevant and dying. Likewise in my neck of the woods, our Novus Ordo churches are graying and thinning out, while our TLM parishes are packed to the rafters. Where does the future lie? With a small and faithful remnant, perhaps. Francis can hold all the synods he wants. It seems the church has erred a bit too far in the direction of "listening" over the past half-century, with largely regrettable results. Perhaps it's time for the church to stop focusing on listening so much and instead start leading and asserting for a change. Perhaps the pre-V2 church did have its problems. Now that we've had half a century of trying something else, can we at least admit that the "something else" has been a largely failed solution? And that maybe tradition isn't such a bad thing? And that we never needed the revolutionary overhaul we got? All I can say is that I was born in the first years following the V2 reforms, and neither the modern Mass nor the post-V2 spirit of the church ever did a thing for me. It didn't nurture my faith. It didn't even tell me why I should be Catholic, as opposed to anything else -- and if Francis' recent heretical comments are any indication, maybe that was by design. In its desperate zeal to be ecumenical, it first neglected and eventually forgot what it means to be Catholic. It wasn't until I joined a TLM parish that I felt engaged with, and invigorated by, my faith. Can most N.O. attendees say that? It seems most of them are as apathetic and lukewarm as Francis himself is.
The prayer for universal salvation DOES violate Christ's message, but our hearts compel us to pray it anyway. We must, as the bride, choose to refuse the groom until He lets our whole family come to the wedding. Let His Mother reveal His answer to us.
He said he wanted a "different church" so perhaps his agenda is to make the Church different, an endorser of the world rather than the means through which Jesus calls the world to reform, repent and believe in the Gospel.
Larry; i have come to that conclusion of thought as you describe; wanting discreetly to change fundamental principles and belief like women ordination and gay pride marriage.. keep the kettle burning with like minded embers.
@@GordonSou Resourcement, on the basis of scholarly conjecture, sought to reconstruct a putatively original set of Christian practices for the 1st century. Aggiornamento for its part is committed to updating the Church in accordance with modern desiderata. To use a common analogy: if the Church grew as a tree from the seed that Peter first tended, then Resourcement chopped at the roots while Aggiornamento pulled it down to the ground from the top. Hence the awful situation we find ourselves in today.
I don’t agree that “aggiornamento” was in any way a bad thing. In the early Church, once it had become established in the West, the Church there decided that some “aggiornamento” was required. Why persist in having the Bible and the Liturgy in Greek, when the Faithful spoke, in the main, Latin? So, the Bible and the Liturgy were put into the vernacular, so that the Faithful would be able to understand them. That, clearly, was a move in the right direction, as was the decision after the Council to put the Bible and the Liturgy into the vernacular. What happened, of course, is that the whole of society was falling into disarray at the time of the Council. The Protestant Churches started falling apart. Social order and sexual morality started falling apart. However, the Protestant Churches did not have a Council to blame - it was all due to the spirit of the age. It is like those who said, at the time, that hyper inflation followed the introduction of decimal currency. That was true only for very low prices, where small upward adjustments were made since there was no equivalent to the 1d or 1/2d. However, from sixpence upwards, there was an exact equivalent and there was no inflation caused by decimalisation - it was caused by the increase in oil prices and Governments printing money to try to carry on buying oil at the new inflated prices. In my view, the Council, and almost all of the changes which followed the Council, were a good thing. Almost all of the harm which was done to the Church at the time was done to it by the same forces as did similar harm to the Protestant Churches. In fact, I should go so far as to say that the Council acted to prepare the Faithful for the shocks which were to come - having direct access to the Bible and the Liturgy in the vernacular provided them with more useful tools to use in combatting the spirit of the age.
Regarding the comments made about Pope John Paul II and not dealing with paedophiles within the Church, is there any ascertainable and objective data that supports this? At the time, and as a lifelong Catholic, I recall the issue wasn't even discussed within local parishes, so I wonder how much information moved up the line of authority when it was stemmed at the source. Also, don't forget the role of the organisation Aid to the Church in Need (ACN), when it came to combating communism in Poland. They provided funds to build the church in Nowa Huta which was to be a role model communist town, devoid of all religion, especially Catholicism.
Does Dr. Chapp agree with Pope Benedict XVI that after Vatican II the liturgy was banalized? Can the Mass be revised in a way to restore the majesty and sanctity of it, without going all the way to the Latin Mass?
Yes Joseph Ratzinger noticed AFTER WW2 the Church in Germany needed reevangelisation and religious knowledge was low. Think about it. The WW1 defeat followed by the fight between Marxist Socialists and National Socialists with their ideologies as well as the submission of Christians during WW2 and the indoctrination of Germany which was divided after its WW2 defeat did produce disillusion and real dechristianisation in Germany and Europe. This was not the situation in the English speaking world. The Church worldwide was not like Germany. The German anti Rome attitudes and new theology did dominate too much at Vatican 2.
We absolutely need to return to the sources! We can't have dry neo scholastic pharisaism. But this has nothing to do with abandoning the true faith. The bottom line must be faithfulness to Our Lord.
The basic problem is the demise in preaching and teaching the authentic Gospel calling for reform and repentance. The attempt to water down the Gospel and demiraculize Jesus' miracles, the focus on the congregation rather than on worshipping in the Mass, the elimination of pietistic practices, the haemorrhaging of religious from the schools, the watering down of seminary training all contributed to the demise of Jesus' Church. The Council was used as an excuse for the protestantizing the Catholic Church justifying it by attributing it to the "spirit" of the Council when it fact it was the spirit of so-called liturgists trying to render the divine liturgy purely human with the community worshiping itself rather than God..
From Our Lord's 9/17/2024 message to Gisella: “Looking at you, My children, at My feet, in prayer and with faith of heart, consoles My Heart which is ravaged by sin. My brothers and sisters, now the masks have fallen, as foretold. Evil, now, has no more secrets. It is no longer hiding! (referring to the recent announcement of all religions lead to God by the false pope). This world of sin will soon end! The Era of true Peace will come."
The Church always had crises. The mass was never meant to be entertainment so saying the clergymen complained that parishioners were bored is like saying, going to granny who is deaf and half comatose while i could be at home with my lego, means we must make granny more entertaining. We go to worship God!!! Secondly, the pychological traumatic impact on the post ww2 attendees at v2 doesnt vitiate but undermines further the benefit of v2. One needs to go back to the roots of modernism and the contemporary enlightenment obsession on materialism which trinkled into the burgeoning middle class, as a monumental effect. Moreover, the communist infiltration, the sexual and student revolutuons, the distortion of human rights by globalists all played a role. Stat cryx dom volvitur orbis, was rejected and so went the world went the Church.
Hi Team and Larry. Perhaps, the Synod is the Beast that speaks.- Revelation The verbiage they used in the opening service was very strange....reverence 4 and worshiping 2. - SYNOD I can see the De Ranking of the papacy for the purpose 2 transfer that power and authority to Synodality. -that they said, ('will find its voice') Maybe, the false prophet will be a Roman Catholic Cleric? Anyway, I will keep a watchful eye on this weathervane Idea.
The big news today was that the Turkish Prime Minister at the U.N. called the whole world to join in an alliance against Israel. Sounds familiar, I read that somewhere.
1st - Book called Index of leading Catholic indicators, which shows devastation of VII. Other religions were growing. 2nd - It clearly wasn’t the documents. Pre-Internet where would someone find the documents in the 60s & 70s? It was the implementation, esp. the New Mass.
The Second Vatican Council was a profound source of good in the Catholic Church. Consider the extent of the reforms which it introduced. Firstly, the Lectionary was expanded from a single one year cycle into a two year cycle for Sundays and a three year cycle for week days. The Faithful now hear far more of the Sacred Scriptures than they did before. Then, the Divine Office was expanded - far more from the Church Fathers and the Saints and far more from Sacred Scripture. Then, the reform of the Mass itself. There was no “golden age” of the Church when the Mass was in the Tridentine form. It was seen by many Catholics (not all, of course) simply as a show put on by the Church which they were required to attend as a captive audience. The Mass was said by the Priest in Latin and the responses were given in Latin by the Altar Servers on behalf of the Congregation. There was no real sense of the Congregation participating. Now, the Faithful all participate in the Mass. They can, if they wish, express their Faith by saying the responses loudly and with feeling. In saying the Creed, the Gloria and the Sanctus in a language which they understand, they are giving real worship to Almighty God. Then, by turning the Altar around so that the Priest and the Congregation were gathered around a common table (it is not a case of “either or”, but of “both and” - the Altar is both a communion table and an Altar of sacrifice) the Mass became much more of what it was always intended to be (and, indeed, as it had more faithfully remained in the Eastern Orthodox Churches). So, while something does need to be done to restore the Faith and Orthodox belief of the Church, I am quite sure that what is required is not a return to the Tridentine form of the Mass. This was simply a natural response of the Council of Trent, which forbade the current form of the Mass (and the reading of the King James Bible) for no other reason than that they were Protestant. Now, we have a communion table and, from the first Sunday of Advent this year, we shall have the King James Bible (in its current revision, the ESV) to replace the Jerusalem Bible simply because it is, considered objectively, a much more accurate and reliable translation (it has, in fact, been in use in the English Church since 1966 in the RSV 2 CE version for teaching and study purposes in any event).
There is so much to criticize here but I don't have the time. I say this in charity.What really irks me is this nonsense about "participation". Every time one enters a Church one is participating. By being in the pews, in the Church etc one is participating. Much like heaven,we participate by our very presence there, if we are blessed to go there in the first place, but it doesn't mean we share AS the source of the beatific vision. We remain servants of God. The "participation" you speak of my friend is borne out of modernity and many use it to democraticise the Church, but the Church is not nor can ever be a democracy. It is hierarchical in heaven and on earth. Moreover, people in the past since the printing press had access to material. You paint a picture that when the liturgy was in Latin people were almost framed as illiterate idiots. The greatest saints emerged during that period. I could go on and on but suffice to say, I don't agree with your assessment.
@@UncleKlausSchwab Thank you for your view of the matter. Of course, in accordance with the traditional teaching of the Church, there is no higher authority in the Church than the teachings of an Ecumenical Council of the Church, once formally confirmed by the Bishop of Rome. So, it is not possible to put forward the proposition that the Fathers of the Council taught in error, that Pope Paul VI confirmed their teachings in error, and that the teaching of the Council is not that of the Church, since, put quite simply, an Ecumenical Council IS the Church. I am aware that the Church of England takes a different view - it considers that both Councils and Popes have erred. However, once you start off on that slippery slope, you end up disconnected with the Church which Our Lord founded through the Apostles and their successors, the Bishops of the Catholic Church. It is not possible to reconcile the view, logically, that an Ecumenical Council has erred, unless you wish to move from the Catholic Church to the Church of England, where those holding such views are, of course, welcomed with open arms.
Here's a little exercise for you given it's Ember Saturday. What does your ESV say about Mark 9:29 What does your KJV? What does your DRB or RSV2CE say? Bottom line: while the ESV does have its lineage drawn from the KJV (which I myself admit is amazing to read) I wonder about their editors' choice of manuscripts.
@@spykezspykez7001 Oh, I forgot to mention - I, personally, only read Monsignor Ronald Knox’s excellent translation from the Vulgate, which I am fortunate enough to have in the full three volume study edition, with notes referring to the original texts. I do, of course, submit to the decision of the English Bishops to adopt the ESV.
How Esua family is out and on a mission to the one who matters to God. Good luck bc Job was able to pray to God to remove the curse placed on his friends and family and thats not on the table for Esua's offspring
With all due respect wasn't nouvelle theologie condemned largely and rather effectively by Fr. LaGrange and I believe rightly so, after all did not one of its chief theologians give us the wild idea of transfinalization?
The conclave who elected him was the big problem. Which Cardinals voted for Him?? And why ?? Who promoted him?? He was a controversial Cardinal in Argentina. Before He was elected it was known that he actually told the Anglican Bishop Palmer not to convert to Catholicism. so this was know at the time. The true marks are Humble, Holy Prayfull that should be the goal of all of us. And it's obviously not what Pope Francis is.
While the Pope was preaching to the youth that all religions are on parr and with the same path to God ,the Sunday Gospel was the question Christ spoke to the disciples "Who do people say I am?" and "Who do you say I am?". Our path, is the Way, Truth and Life and we failed to hear His name and response. from the papal preaching tour.
This middle ground, "actually the council was awesome", position is pointless. It will never work. It's self-evident to everyone with eyes to see. These professional theologians whose entire careers depend on advocating for it will never give it up, though.
I have concluded Bergolio has in his dotage begun to confuse his id for Christ's and believes his will is the divine will. In other words he has subjugated the Divine Will to his will.
I hope i marry a bikini model. Score the winning goal in the world cup final and win the lottery on the same day. Just because i hope to do so doesnt mean there's a possibility. It is just noise.
Why? Christ did warn about false prophets and about wolves in sheep's clothing. We trust in our lord who promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.
From a logical standpoint, doesn't it make more sense to be part of a Church founded by God Himself than to be part of one founded by a human person? Who deserves your trust?
My wife's step-brother married a JW and was promptly instructed by his new wife's congregation to shun his family because they were not JWs. They have had no contact now with their brother, son and his wife, and children since the wedding for 40 years. That cruelty by this action and others I have witnessed resulting from JW related shunning properly condemns the JW cult as the poisonous fruit of an evil tree.
"Latin won't save the world" is simply not a serious engagement with the Traditionalist perspective. Please stop acting as if it were. It's a slogan, a polemical elbow, not an actual argument. @9:30 Larry makes a statement that shows he knows it's a polemical dig. Thank you, Dr. Chapp!
Yes. The TLM has a reverence and beauty that draws us to truth in a way the NO often doesn’t, which at worst, pushes people away. The point, in the context of Larry making it, was to say that, for some, being caught up in the a accoutrements of the tradition liturgy can mask a lack of orthopraxy
As much as I like and prefer the old rite and the more concrete doctrine, I think Larry is right. The church was likely in rough state prior to V2. The reason I suspect you may find Tridentine rite parishes or chapels flourishing a proportionately more Catholic congregation is that they *bother* to go to these parishes in the first place today. Versus the new rite churches where perhaps proportionally there are more "less interested" attending. Selection bias may be more at work today. Pre-Vatican 2 there was no NO so arguably this selection bias may not have been present. On a more profound level, maybe Vatican 2 was meant to happen to make people wake up and take things seriously.. But at what cost?
Welcome to our live show! - Catholic Unscripted 1. Why, 'tis jolly good to see three Brits and a Yankee chap chat on the telly. 2. Dr. Chapp at 11:28-57: "... so now, really to me, the cherry on the ice cream, the final point is his statements in ... well, first off his signing of the Abu Dhabi declaration that God willis the pluralism of religions. They walked it back a little bit but not much, then to the kids in Singapore saying that, you know, he didn't say all religions are equal pathways to God, but he didn't bring up Christ. He didn't preach the love of Christ and further more he compared religions to languages." Response: A. The Abu Dhabi declaration, i.e., the Document on Human Fraternity for World Peace and Living Together of February 4, 2019, was an exercise in Vatican statecraft providing cover for peacemaking in the Middle East between the United Arab Emirates and Israel, i.e. between Arabs and Jews. B. This declaration laid the groundwork for the groundbreaking signing of the Abraham Accords the following year on September 15, 2020, mediated by the United States, that established two bi-lateral agreements between (A) the United Arab Emirates and Israel and (B) Bahrain and Israel. These accords recognized Israel's sovereignty and established full diplomatic relations. The present trouble in the Middle East initiated by Iran through its proxies on October 7, 2023 was intended to disrupt any further peacemaking between Arabs and Jews, particularly between Saudi Arabia and Israel. C. The link below provides the text of Pope Francis' Mass homily at the Singapore Sports Hub National Stadium on Thursday, 12 September 2024 that contains the following paragraph: "Faith, then, confirms and enlightens us even more deeply regarding this conviction, because it tells us that at the root of our capacity to love and be loved is God himself, who with a Father’s heart has willed and desired to bring us into existence in an utterly gratuitous way (cf.1 Cor 8:6) and who in an equally gratuitous way has redeemed us and freed us from sin and death, through the death and resurrection of his only Son. IT IS IN JESUS THAT ALL THAT WE ARE AND CAN BECOME HAVE THEIR ORIGIN AND FULFILLMENT." vatican va /content/francesco/en/homilies/2024/documents/20240912-singapore-messa.pdf D. It was the address of Pope Francis the following day on Friday, 13 September 2024 at the Interreligious Meeting with Young People, that caused such consternation around the world. However, as Dr. Chapp pointed out, the pope's off-the-cuff remarks can be placed in the context of the Second Vatican Council documents, particularly the dogmatic constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, solemnly promulgated by Pope Paul VI on November 21, 1964, Chapter II - On the People of God, No. 16: No. 16 - Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. (Mk. 1:15; cf. Mt. 4:17) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. (Cf. Rom. 9:4-5) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. (Cf. Rom. 1 l:28-2) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, (Cf. Acts 17:25-28) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. (Cf. 1 Tim. 2:4) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. (Mk. 4:14) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. (Lk. 12:32) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. (Cf Rom. 1:21, 25) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature", (Gospel of Mark: 16:15, KJV) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention. Vatican VA /archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html E. And if the King James Bible was good enough for St. Mark ...
hmmm... Its strange, I want to like rassourcement theology and Larry Chapp (and Bishop Barron), but I find myself not really agreeing with or wanting to shy away from all of that. It just doesn't seem to have the clarity of neo scholasticism.
What does it mean to keep Aquinas but "contextualize Aquinas in the broader tradition of the Church"? Does it mean "reinterpret Aquinas" in the light of the broader tradition? Is that what the Nouvelle Theologians were really doing, or were they slyly discarding him? In any event, you can't reinterpret Aquinas and interpret him correctly unless the former interpretation is wrong. So, the presupposition is that the neo-scholastics were misinterpreting Aquinas. I'd like to know what the neo-scholastics got wrong
JP2 was not the superstar for me because I watched with shock when he held those ridiculous Assisi events invwhich he prayed with pagans setting a bad example and the statue of Buddha was placed on a Catholic altar in Assisi. He later kissed a Koran which IS an act of apostasy. His lips were gravel rashed from kissing airport tarmacs which I thought pure theatre. He was a showman. Many of his encyclicals were verbose, imprecise and too frequent. He did not grasp the disengagement Catholics did to cope and he set up a modern cult of personality while in the Papal office. I was confused and dismayed by him during the 1980's when I was in my twenties. JP2 has determination and will power. Benedict XVI was truly a very good Pope. So sad he gave up. His doing so has brought the heterodox into power and its all come to a head. May the reaction after Francis be decisive and "smash them in pieces like a potters vessel".
Maybe your "confusion" was because you were in your twenties. Perhaps you should read George Weigell's outsanding biography "Witness to Hope" with the "arrogance of youth" hopefully now diminished.
One would expect a theologian to know the difference between material heresy and the category formal heretic. If some one pertinaciously holds views contrary to dogma and doctrine required for assent then material heresy is committed. Scienter is needed for the establishment of formal heretic. One doesn't have to fall into the category of judgment to suggest material heresy has been committed.
We already have that diversity in the Catholic Church. There are Catholic rites with married priests for example the Ukrainian greek Catholic Church, the Chaldean Catholic Church and Maronite Catholic Church.
Sorry Dr, Chapp, try as you might, your attempt in proposing apologia for this Pontificate fails; you allude to the circumstances of this Pope's national origin, influence of his education, etc... to explain his pronouncements and false teachings- circumstances cannot absolve error.
All spiritual enquiry may or may not eventually lead someone to God (let alone Christ). However, that is totally not the same as declaring that all religions are equal to each other in being valid routes to God. The Pope should know the Catholic message - that only by, in and through Christ will any soul be able to live spiritually with God after death. The Pope should know that this sets the Christian faith apart from all other belief systems, past, present or future. It seems that although Jorge Bergoglio finds himself Pope of the Catholic Church, he has yet to become a Christian.
The more I think about this presentation, the worse it gets. Chapp ponders if it acceptable to hope that no one is in hell. And citing the Fatima prayer of the rosary he states we pray this and insultingly asks if we are lying. But, of course, this flatly not true. In the Fatima prayer we ask Jesus "to lead all souls to heaven." We do not ask that He command all souls to follow Him. God gave us free will. We always have a choice to follow God's law and Jesus; or not. More importantly, Jesus Himself said there would be souls in hell. What does Chapp believe? Does he deny this about Jesus? He distorts the Fatima prayer and the rosary, why was he permitted to do this? Because he was so adamant? Unacceptable. And the fact that he did distort to make his baseless point, indicates that he may not be relied upon. I wonder, should we also pray for Lucifer? Chapp denies he is an appostate. I believe him. He seems more like what was called a "cafeteria Catholic" - choose what you like and ignore the rest. He ponders if he is a heretic. This is good for his soul. I do not judge him. But if he is and has deluded himself, why should we follow him in his delusion. Chapp clearly has a great deal of knowledge. But we have often observed in life how knowledge is misused. I do not trust his judgement. A question: if Chapp attends Anglican services I wonder if he attends Catholic Mass as required of Catholics. If he does not, this alone would discourage me from listening to his point of view. And if he attends Angelican services I wonder if he attends Catholic Mass as required of Catholics. If he does not, this also discourages me from giving any weight to his point of view.
I work in housing and when changes are to made the tenants are given a voice and appeal against the changes and they are listened to and ignored and changes are made and we see this in councils and governments etc when changes are hinted at they happen and we see the same in the church whatever is hinted at will happen All the changes since Vatican 2 has been indoctrinated into the church and laity and accepted Marxism states 20 years and the people are indoctrinated Vatican 2 is a Marxist revolution and far left and oppressed and the Latin rite the the oppressors and far right The world has become a global village and far left and there is no room for the far right and the global village has indoctrinated the whole world it’s pagan and Marxist and fixated on Mother Earth
I have a little joke to myself that Larry mentions he goes to an Anglican Ordinariate parish somehow in pretty much every video. Lol didn’t realize it would get asked when I put it in the chat, nor did I think it would be controversial at all. Lol oops. Love it, love this, love Larry.
God does not will religious diversity. Salvation comes from the Jews. God revealed himself to Abraham and formed his chosen people Israel. Jesus Christ is the messiah of the Jews. Christianity is the only society whose head and founder is God in Jesus Christ. God spoke and taught directly founding the Church. Other religions are philosophical and cult creations of humans. God tolerates but does not in his love will it.
To those who are not Americans, my response to Dr. Chapp may seem arrogant or dismissive, however, to be an American today necessarily means that we are subject to the will of others due to the secular revolution. In this respect, I am speaking of the will as one of the powers of the soul; the soul has intellect and will. Now Dr. Chapp may say that Vatican II convened to move us beyond the constraints of Scholastic but to understand the soul as revealed through Scholasticism is crucial to make sense of the cultural revolution which has now spread beyond the confines of America.
We are taught by the Scholastics that the intellect perceives reality- what is and its goal is truth; the wil identifies the good and its goal is the highest good which is God. However, can we be drawn by the will to things which are not good? Most definitely- for example, I want just one more piece of cake- it is sooo good! And yes, it is good to the taste and satisfying to the body. However, the intellect reminds us that we are overweight and developing Type II diabetes and as such, this is nt actually good for us. The Scholastics teach that the will must always be subject to the intellect which perceives reality. Without a will subordinated to the intellect, we become slaves to whatever the will perceives as a good in this moment.
In America, more than a generation ago, the dominating force of the will became the standard by which many lived their lives giving rise to men who now claim to women, children claiming to be cats, etc... if I will it, it is so! The destructive force of the individual will is plainly evident in our culture, but the Faith has been the greatest victim of this error. By the time I was a teenager, the erosion of truth by the force of will began to empty the pews. It was not Vatican II that caused the damage, but those claiming the "spirit of Vatican II" who, ruled by their will abandoned the intellectual pursuit f truth.
Thus, growing up in America has created tension between man's will and truth. Most today try to navigate these stormy waters by applying relativism: you have your truth, I have mine so as to somehow close the gap and calm the stormy waters. However, there can never be peace without truth and while I can understand Dr. Chapp's desire to calm the stormy waters enveloping this Pontificate, my response would still be, there can be no peace without truth! The Scriptures, Vatican II documents, traditions of the Church and the previous pontficates have provided our intellect with the Truth and it cannot be denied that Pope has broken with all. Trying to explain it or mollify our uneasiness with this Pontificate will not appease the problem, only the Truth can bring peace to our souls.
I think it is actually deeper still than this. Reading the Word of God, having a vision of Jesus Christ, having a miraculous healing, and having charismatic experiences have taken it past the will and intellect for me. I have seen so many things that are spiritual and cannot be easily understood with the intellect and have nothing to do with human will. There are voices in your head. Most people identify any voice they hear in their head as their own, but it isn't necessarily. There are angels, demons, God and the Devil. Once you experience a clear conversation with the spiritual world your will, heart and mind can literally be changed like St Paul's did on the road to Damascus. Reading the Bible should be a daily practice along with prayer, it is the Word of God. The experience I had came through reading the Bible at a point of suffering and reaching out to God in desperation, seeking Him with everything I had.
There is an orthodox podcast called Ancient Faith Radio I believe that very well describes the worldview of the early Church and what is expressed in the Scriptures, and the CCC. Scholasticism is GREATLY missing in this regard. I think it took away the correct understanding of the body, mind, and soul. Some things cannot be grasped with the mind but the soul. These three coming into agreement: the body, the mind and the soul with Jesus can give a peace beyond understanding. The will as you described (the flesh) is the body and many people try then to align their mind to the body to justify all sorts of sins. But the souls always tugs at them unless they are too far gone. If you talk to people in grave sin or supporting, it and use reason and pray(soul) eventually, they will lash out at you, and you will see the spiritual come out. In your own life this can be knows by what draws you into sorrow and repentance. It can also be known by what draws you to living a holy, chaste, sacrificial life. But God, our angel and angels are always at work, but we have to listen and discern between them and the enemy. This is where we need a good relationship with the Holy Spirit how spoke through the prophets and inspires the Scriptures (John 17). It is by our soul we can know the Truth reading the Word of God and recognize the Holy Spirit speaking to us.
Maranatha
Erudite, essential, encouraging and hopeful discussion. Good work!
@@drjohnashfield3915 Jesus called them whited sepulchres. Nice try.
I grew up in the 1970’s. I met Jesus in Vatican II Catholic Canada. Nothing stops God reaching us.
The Church on the eve of Vatican II had many problems, but the solution was not the nonsense that we got after the Council. What is desperately needed is a re-enchantment and a reengagement with the fullness of the liturgy.
Thank you SO much for this discusión with Larry Chapp. 100% correct assesment of all issues. Very balanced judgment. Wonderful.❤
VII is a symptom, not the disease. Symptoms must be addressed though, as the disease needs rooting out.
The reason for Latin is the fix: holiness, and not banality.
Actually listening to Larry, l do like a lot of what he is saying. Happy to agree to disagree.
The disease is atheism. These "enlightened" modernists don't realize that they don't believe in G-d. They don't know what faith feels like.
Thanks!
It was said that orthodoxy does not guarantee orthopraxy, but let that lead us to the error of elevating praxy over truth which seems to be what is currently happening in Rome. The entire stream was thought-provoking. Thank you Catholic Unscripted (and Larry Chapp).
Hinduism and Islam have nothing to do with Christianity. Why can't we just say that? People of those faiths have no problem saying that..
As someone that was married to a muslim and also dated indian men (one hindu , one sikh) I can confirm this. I have experienced the differences the hard way: heartache and bruises….
As a Catholic of Indian heritage I don't understand the purpose of trying to find commonality with other religions. In India it is plainly evident that the Holy Spirit is actively bringing people from Hinduism and Islam to Catholicism or to other Christian denominations. Meanwhile, what are we trying to achieve with these gimmicks? We need to let the lord work.
@@ashwin4319-u9j
Amen!
@@ashwin4319-u9j 🙏
There was a golden age in Philosophy (around 500 B.C.) where all the main cultures independently developed an understanding that there was an invisible world - besides the material world - of archetypes. Each culture was progressing in understanding God. Unfortunately, there are a lot of Catholic exceptionalists who won't acknowledge that God - truth - is found in pagan cultures, together with errors about polytheism. Most critiques miss the nuanced nature of different cultures and jump to demands of the perfect way to salvation - the Catholic Church.
“It’s not Latin that will save the world, it’s holiness.”Please Catholics, understand the need for the Council. It’s attempts to connect the faith to the culture was largely high jacked by certain dark characters in the implementation post council. The need was and is real. Benedict attempted a reform of the reform. It will happen.
When Fulton Sheen was on TV was he connecting the faith to the culture?
Amen, but...The purpose of the mass is to offer sacrifice, not to evangelize. You can still give us a vernacular evangelical service with no sacrifice at all. Make it mandatory even. Just don't replace the mass with it. Replace vespers with it, maybe, tho. Vespers is already begging to become something relevant.
Anyone may attend the Ordinariate Mass! Come one, come all! I am a former Anglican hermit, now happily a Catholic Diocesan Hermit. Though a member of the Ordinariate and I was professed in the Archdiocese of Indianapolis.
i agree with you Larry those 3 mistakes of JP2. but JP2 was focused; this pope is creating a huge mess.
Fabulous discussion. Let's do this again and include Dr. Peter Kwasniewski in the group. He's a very articulate trad Catholic and could add some more spice to the conversation.
He is a kook who says JP II was one of the worst popes ever.
Not so Mark regarding what people like about the TLM is not just the reverence. It's about our posture with respect to the Trinity. Recognizing our sinfulness and begging God for His mercy. It's about celebrating and longing to be united in the Trinity. The TLM has little to do with my relationship to my fellow catholics in the pew. Lastly, I'll mention that the TLM is the worahip that sustained my ancestors, which has been cut off. Of course, there's more.
The line is we need our Catholic Church ⛪️ back!!! We need a Pope who will follow Catholic teachings
I think Francis plans to finish the job begun by Martin Luther.
Well that's not surprising as he has a statue of 'his hero' in the Vatican
The present Pope is a product of modernism and that raised its ugly head long before Vatican II however VII without doubt legitimised it!
Fr. Jerzy Popiełuszko preached the Faith boldly and was killed for it. His life was not focused on this world.
I missed the live coverage, but I really enjoyed listening to four wonderful people as I watched later in the evening.
Neither traditionalism or modernism in itself can lead to holiness but traditionalism allows the growth of holiness by the quietness of its liturgy whereas modernism drowns out holiness by its noise, confusion and division.
you are on to something Katherine; the very fact lay people cannot ask the hard questions and get some answers with concerns. when i email a concern to clergy i rarely get an answer.
"The purpose of Vatican 2 is to purify modernity not to succumb to it."
- Henri de Lubac
And did it purify it?
"We're not going to call him a heretic, but if we DID call him a heretic, what kind of heretic would he be?" LOLOLOL
The Pope is one of the rotten fruit of the Council and 1970's faulty formation. The Jesuits were castigated by every pope since Paul VI.
Love that just what I needed, put huge smile on my face. Lol lol
Leitmotif....pronounced lite-moteef. Hurrah for Larry Chapp. Hurrah for Mark.
I love these discussions Catholic Unsrcipted are doing, just have one request, can you give Gavin a little more air time please😊❤
I attend a. Ordinariate Mass on weds 40 miles away and agree wish it was the Mass of P.Paul VI
An attractive invitation - sadly, there isn’t an Ordinariate Parish anywhere within fifty miles of where I live.
At Vatican II, the documents are so joyful and full of hope and love, written at a time when nuclear war looked very possible. In the Council the Church turned her face to Jerusalem, and the Passion, IMHO.
I enjoyed that. Thankyou.
On this notion of the Fatima prayer supposedly confirming universalism. We can turn it around on those who lean towards Universalism by asking, “Why pray for the sinners of the world if it's a guarantee?”
On that note - If it's a given that the Pope will never-failingly uphold the Catholic faith, why do we pray that he does in the litany used at Episcopal Consecration?
The 3rd Vatican Council will have to address that.
Please God. 🙏
Assisi is a rejection of the First Commandment
Maybe just a stupid mistake?
Just as we have popespainers we have Vatican2splainers. Archbishop Lefbvre said the documents that all have different levels of authority and the bishops had no mandate to define doctrine...deliberately includes ambiguous phrases that were put there to be exploited and pushed way beyond any limit in the implementation of the Council AFTER the bishops went home. Obedience and submission was instilled in Catholics and it was and is exploited by the heterodox in authority. I was born in 1961 and experienced the car crash as a passenger driven by the Papacy, bishops and clergy particularly those heterodox who pushed the accelerator. The anger, shock, dismay and total distrust of being trapped in a Church doing this is traumatic.
Scott Hahn has produced a new Bible for catholics, where the footnotes link old to new testament andvavoid the critical doubts which imbue the Jerusalem bible.
What Bible would that be ?
Whats the difference between Pope Francis's Jungianism as Gavin describes, and Jordan Peterson's Jungianism? Peterson often critises Pope Francis for being too woke however the way he answers the "belief" question is also worth scrutiny. Furthermore Gavin mentioned said he used to part of that worldview and it would be nice if he gave a deep dive into how he moved out of that - if he hasnt already.
The difference as I see it is that Pope Francis' if it is Jungianism is tied to globalism and left leaning views while Peterson's aren't and are more right leaning in some areas (not all).
The purpose of V2 may have been to engage with rather than capitulate to modernism, but the result was still essentially a capitulation. The current state of the church is evidence enough of that. The church no longer stands as a bulwark or a corrective to the culture. Instead, it continually bends its rules to become ever more accommodating. This is likely to continue until the church has no relevance left, inasmuch as it will have simply become an echo of the prevailing culture. Look at what's happened to the Mainline Protestant churches. They're irrelevant and dying. Likewise in my neck of the woods, our Novus Ordo churches are graying and thinning out, while our TLM parishes are packed to the rafters.
Where does the future lie? With a small and faithful remnant, perhaps. Francis can hold all the synods he wants. It seems the church has erred a bit too far in the direction of "listening" over the past half-century, with largely regrettable results. Perhaps it's time for the church to stop focusing on listening so much and instead start leading and asserting for a change.
Perhaps the pre-V2 church did have its problems. Now that we've had half a century of trying something else, can we at least admit that the "something else" has been a largely failed solution? And that maybe tradition isn't such a bad thing? And that we never needed the revolutionary overhaul we got?
All I can say is that I was born in the first years following the V2 reforms, and neither the modern Mass nor the post-V2 spirit of the church ever did a thing for me. It didn't nurture my faith. It didn't even tell me why I should be Catholic, as opposed to anything else -- and if Francis' recent heretical comments are any indication, maybe that was by design. In its desperate zeal to be ecumenical, it first neglected and eventually forgot what it means to be Catholic. It wasn't until I joined a TLM parish that I felt engaged with, and invigorated by, my faith. Can most N.O. attendees say that? It seems most of them are as apathetic and lukewarm as Francis himself is.
The prayer for universal salvation DOES violate Christ's message, but our hearts compel us to pray it anyway. We must, as the bride, choose to refuse the groom until He lets our whole family come to the wedding. Let His Mother reveal His answer to us.
JPII: I loved him.
Saint John Paul the Great, ora pro nobus.
Dr. Larry is a great guest thanks.
This is so informative!
As someone said to me in the pub....the Pope is "a prostate" which made me choke...lol
Thanks for the laugh! Whenever I type apostolate online I get s spell check that wants to correct it to apostate!
He said he wanted a "different church" so perhaps his agenda is to make the Church different, an endorser of the world rather than the means through which Jesus calls the world to reform, repent and believe in the Gospel.
Sad to say, yes. A different Church. Even today people refer to the Catholic Church in 2 parts, Pre & Post Conciliar.
W
Larry; i have come to that conclusion of thought as you describe; wanting discreetly to change fundamental principles and belief like women ordination and gay pride marriage.. keep the kettle burning with like minded embers.
Resourcement was one of the movements that along with aggiornamento helped destroy the Church as few other movements.
Why?
@@GordonSou Resourcement, on the basis of scholarly conjecture, sought to reconstruct a putatively original set of Christian practices for the 1st century. Aggiornamento for its part is committed to updating the Church in accordance with modern desiderata. To use a common analogy: if the Church grew as a tree from the seed that Peter first tended, then Resourcement chopped at the roots while Aggiornamento pulled it down to the ground from the top. Hence the awful situation we find ourselves in today.
I don’t agree that “aggiornamento” was in any way a bad thing. In the early Church, once it had become established in the West, the Church there decided that some “aggiornamento” was required. Why persist in having the Bible and the Liturgy in Greek, when the Faithful spoke, in the main, Latin? So, the Bible and the Liturgy were put into the vernacular, so that the Faithful would be able to understand them. That, clearly, was a move in the right direction, as was the decision after the Council to put the Bible and the Liturgy into the vernacular. What happened, of course, is that the whole of society was falling into disarray at the time of the Council. The Protestant Churches started falling apart. Social order and sexual morality started falling apart. However, the Protestant Churches did not have a Council to blame - it was all due to the spirit of the age. It is like those who said, at the time, that hyper inflation followed the introduction of decimal currency. That was true only for very low prices, where small upward adjustments were made since there was no equivalent to the 1d or 1/2d. However, from sixpence upwards, there was an exact equivalent and there was no inflation caused by decimalisation - it was caused by the increase in oil prices and Governments printing money to try to carry on buying oil at the new inflated prices. In my view, the Council, and almost all of the changes which followed the Council, were a good thing. Almost all of the harm which was done to the Church at the time was done to it by the same forces as did similar harm to the Protestant Churches. In fact, I should go so far as to say that the Council acted to prepare the Faithful for the shocks which were to come - having direct access to the Bible and the Liturgy in the vernacular provided them with more useful tools to use in combatting the spirit of the age.
Regarding the comments made about Pope John Paul II and not dealing with paedophiles within the Church, is there any ascertainable and objective data that supports this? At the time, and as a lifelong Catholic, I recall the issue wasn't even discussed within local parishes, so I wonder how much information moved up the line of authority when it was stemmed at the source.
Also, don't forget the role of the organisation Aid to the Church in Need (ACN), when it came to combating communism in Poland. They provided funds to build the church in Nowa Huta which was to be a role model communist town, devoid of all religion, especially Catholicism.
I'm not familiar with the ACN. Do you have a reference?
ACN is fantastic!
Does Dr. Chapp agree with Pope Benedict XVI that after Vatican II the liturgy was banalized? Can the Mass be revised in a way to restore the majesty and sanctity of it, without going all the way to the Latin Mass?
i remember that!!!! yes!! in Poland!!!
Beautiful plants, aren't they
IM A HEAVY A BIG DEAL ON THE EARTH AND IN HEAVEN.
Yes Joseph Ratzinger noticed AFTER WW2 the Church in Germany needed reevangelisation and religious knowledge was low. Think about it. The WW1 defeat followed by the fight between Marxist Socialists and National Socialists with their ideologies as well as the submission of Christians during WW2 and the indoctrination of Germany which was divided after its WW2 defeat did produce disillusion and real dechristianisation in Germany and Europe. This was not the situation in the English speaking world. The Church worldwide was not like Germany. The German anti Rome attitudes and new theology did dominate too much at Vatican 2.
We absolutely need to return to the sources! We can't have dry neo scholastic pharisaism. But this has nothing to do with abandoning the true faith. The bottom line must be faithfulness to Our Lord.
I’m confused about Larry going to Anglican mass. Someone please explain.
It's for ex-Anglicans who have entered the Catholic Church celebrated by ex-Anglican priests.
The basic problem is the demise in preaching and teaching the authentic Gospel calling for reform and repentance. The attempt to water down the Gospel and demiraculize Jesus' miracles, the focus on the congregation rather than on worshipping in the Mass, the elimination of pietistic practices, the haemorrhaging of religious from the schools, the watering down of seminary training all contributed to the demise of Jesus' Church. The Council was used as an excuse for the protestantizing the Catholic Church justifying it by attributing it to the "spirit" of the Council when it fact it was the spirit of so-called liturgists trying to render the divine liturgy purely human with the community worshiping itself rather than God..
Agree. And some.....
i usually tell people to not listen or follow the pope as he has gone off his rocker!!
From Our Lord's 9/17/2024 message to Gisella: “Looking at you, My children, at My feet, in prayer and with faith of heart, consoles My Heart which is ravaged by sin. My brothers and sisters, now the masks have fallen, as foretold. Evil, now, has no more secrets. It is no longer hiding! (referring to the recent announcement of all religions lead to God by the false pope). This world of sin will soon end! The Era of true Peace will come."
The Church always had crises. The mass was never meant to be entertainment so saying the clergymen complained that parishioners were bored is like saying, going to granny who is deaf and half comatose while i could be at home with my lego, means we must make granny more entertaining. We go to worship God!!! Secondly, the pychological traumatic impact on the post ww2 attendees at v2 doesnt vitiate but undermines further the benefit of v2. One needs to go back to the roots of modernism and the contemporary enlightenment obsession on materialism which trinkled into the burgeoning middle class, as a monumental effect. Moreover, the communist infiltration, the sexual and student revolutuons, the distortion of human rights by globalists all played a role. Stat cryx dom volvitur orbis, was rejected and so went the world went the Church.
Hi Team and Larry.
Perhaps, the Synod is the Beast that speaks.- Revelation
The verbiage they used in the opening service was very strange....reverence 4 and worshiping 2. - SYNOD
I can see the De Ranking of the papacy for the purpose 2 transfer that power and authority to Synodality. -that they said, ('will find its voice')
Maybe, the false prophet will be a Roman Catholic Cleric?
Anyway, I will keep a watchful eye on this weathervane Idea.
The big news today was that the Turkish Prime Minister at the U.N. called the whole world to join in an alliance against Israel. Sounds familiar, I read that somewhere.
1st - Book called Index of leading Catholic indicators, which shows devastation of VII. Other religions were growing. 2nd - It clearly wasn’t the documents. Pre-Internet where would someone find the documents in the 60s & 70s? It was the implementation, esp. the New Mass.
I want Pope John back!!!❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
I want Benedict XVI back.
the hierarchy including the pope know nothing of the periphery i belong too!!!
Larry made a lot of sense on some controversial issues.
The Second Vatican Council was a profound source of good in the Catholic Church. Consider the extent of the reforms which it introduced. Firstly, the Lectionary was expanded from a single one year cycle into a two year cycle for Sundays and a three year cycle for week days. The Faithful now hear far more of the Sacred Scriptures than they did before. Then, the Divine Office was expanded - far more from the Church Fathers and the Saints and far more from Sacred Scripture. Then, the reform of the Mass itself. There was no “golden age” of the Church when the Mass was in the Tridentine form. It was seen by many Catholics (not all, of course) simply as a show put on by the Church which they were required to attend as a captive audience. The Mass was said by the Priest in Latin and the responses were given in Latin by the Altar Servers on behalf of the Congregation. There was no real sense of the Congregation participating. Now, the Faithful all participate in the Mass. They can, if they wish, express their Faith by saying the responses loudly and with feeling. In saying the Creed, the Gloria and the Sanctus in a language which they understand, they are giving real worship to Almighty God. Then, by turning the Altar around so that the Priest and the Congregation were gathered around a common table (it is not a case of “either or”, but of “both and” - the Altar is both a communion table and an Altar of sacrifice) the Mass became much more of what it was always intended to be (and, indeed, as it had more faithfully remained in the Eastern Orthodox Churches). So, while something does need to be done to restore the Faith and Orthodox belief of the Church, I am quite sure that what is required is not a return to the Tridentine form of the Mass. This was simply a natural response of the Council of Trent, which forbade the current form of the Mass (and the reading of the King James Bible) for no other reason than that they were Protestant. Now, we have a communion table and, from the first Sunday of Advent this year, we shall have the King James Bible (in its current revision, the ESV) to replace the Jerusalem Bible simply because it is, considered objectively, a much more accurate and reliable translation (it has, in fact, been in use in the English Church since 1966 in the RSV 2 CE version for teaching and study purposes in any event).
There is so much to criticize here but I don't have the time. I say this in charity.What really irks me is this nonsense about "participation". Every time one enters a Church one is participating. By being in the pews, in the Church etc one is participating. Much like heaven,we participate by our very presence there, if we are blessed to go there in the first place, but it doesn't mean we share AS the source of the beatific vision. We remain servants of God. The "participation" you speak of my friend is borne out of modernity and many use it to democraticise the Church, but the Church is not nor can ever be a democracy. It is hierarchical in heaven and on earth. Moreover, people in the past since the printing press had access to material. You paint a picture that when the liturgy was in Latin people were almost framed as illiterate idiots. The greatest saints emerged during that period. I could go on and on but suffice to say, I don't agree with your assessment.
@@UncleKlausSchwab Thank you for your view of the matter. Of course, in accordance with the traditional teaching of the Church, there is no higher authority in the Church than the teachings of an Ecumenical Council of the Church, once formally confirmed by the Bishop of Rome. So, it is not possible to put forward the proposition that the Fathers of the Council taught in error, that Pope Paul VI confirmed their teachings in error, and that the teaching of the Council is not that of the Church, since, put quite simply, an Ecumenical Council IS the Church. I am aware that the Church of England takes a different view - it considers that both Councils and Popes have erred. However, once you start off on that slippery slope, you end up disconnected with the Church which Our Lord founded through the Apostles and their successors, the Bishops of the Catholic Church. It is not possible to reconcile the view, logically, that an Ecumenical Council has erred, unless you wish to move from the Catholic Church to the Church of England, where those holding such views are, of course, welcomed with open arms.
Here's a little exercise for you given it's Ember Saturday.
What does your ESV say about Mark 9:29
What does your KJV?
What does your DRB or RSV2CE say?
Bottom line: while the ESV does have its lineage drawn from the KJV (which I myself admit is amazing to read) I wonder about their editors' choice of manuscripts.
@@spykezspykez7001 Oh, I forgot to mention - I, personally, only read Monsignor Ronald Knox’s excellent translation from the Vulgate, which I am fortunate enough to have in the full three volume study edition, with notes referring to the original texts. I do, of course, submit to the decision of the English Bishops to adopt the ESV.
My point is the ESV misses small points like this that even the KJV has because of its modernity.
The RSV2CE is way better
How Esua family is out and on a mission to the one who matters to God. Good luck bc Job was able to pray to God to remove the curse placed on his friends and family and thats not on the table for Esua's offspring
When they talk about liberalism are they just talking about liturgical liberalism, because holiness isn't morally liberal.
With all due respect wasn't nouvelle theologie condemned largely and rather effectively by Fr. LaGrange and I believe rightly so, after all did not one of its chief theologians give us the wild idea of transfinalization?
The conclave who elected him was the big problem. Which Cardinals voted for Him?? And why ?? Who promoted him?? He was a controversial Cardinal in Argentina. Before He was elected it was known that he actually told the Anglican Bishop Palmer not to convert to Catholicism. so this was know at the time. The true marks are Humble, Holy Prayfull that should be the goal of all of us. And it's obviously not what Pope Francis is.
Blame John Paul II for this mess. He made him a bishop and he created him a cardinal.
that is exactly why we must pray for Francis
While the Pope was preaching to the youth that all religions are on parr and with the same path to God ,the Sunday Gospel was the question Christ spoke to the disciples "Who do people say I am?" and "Who do you say I am?". Our path, is the Way, Truth and Life and we failed to hear His name and response. from the papal preaching tour.
Do what thou wilt is the whole of the law.
This middle ground, "actually the council was awesome", position is pointless. It will never work. It's self-evident to everyone with eyes to see. These professional theologians whose entire careers depend on advocating for it will never give it up, though.
I always thought it odd that all those bishops and cardinals experienced WWII, yet they were so optimistic about human nature & mankind.
Very encouraging duscussion
Excellent podcast, I learned quite a bit.
Thank you so much.
I have concluded Bergolio has in his dotage begun to confuse his id for Christ's and believes his will is the divine will. In other words he has subjugated the Divine Will to his will.
there is one thing i notice with this pope he seems to think there is no punishment and hell.
I hope i marry a bikini model. Score the winning goal in the world cup final and win the lottery on the same day. Just because i hope to do so doesnt mean there's a possibility. It is just noise.
I’m 69 years old and JP ll was a major force in the root of the mess following the Council ! He threw the doors and windows open wide!!
All post conciliar popes were modernist. Larry Chapp is a problem!
Yes, after Paul VI brought in a lot of changes, John Paul II continued.
He could have cleaned up the mess; instead he went gallivanting around the world.
Why was sacrosanct Concilium not implemented?
In a word: Bugnini
As a Jehovah's Witness I almost feel bad for catholics
I feel bad for you, too.
@@Thoughtworld1984 no need
Why? Christ did warn about false prophets and about wolves in sheep's clothing. We trust in our lord who promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.
From a logical standpoint, doesn't it make more sense to be part of a Church founded by God Himself than to be part of one founded by a human person? Who deserves your trust?
My wife's step-brother married a JW and was promptly instructed by his new wife's congregation to shun his family because they were not JWs. They have had no contact now with their brother, son and his wife, and children since the wedding for 40 years. That cruelty by this action and others I have witnessed resulting from JW related shunning properly condemns the JW cult as the poisonous fruit of an evil tree.
"Latin won't save the world" is simply not a serious engagement with the Traditionalist perspective. Please stop acting as if it were. It's a slogan, a polemical elbow, not an actual argument. @9:30 Larry makes a statement that shows he knows it's a polemical dig. Thank you, Dr. Chapp!
Yes. The TLM has a reverence and beauty that draws us to truth in a way the NO often doesn’t, which at worst, pushes people away.
The point, in the context of Larry making it, was to say that, for some, being caught up in the a accoutrements of the tradition liturgy can mask a lack of orthopraxy
@@catholicunscripted
Only for those that focus on skin deep.
As much as I like and prefer the old rite and the more concrete doctrine, I think Larry is right.
The church was likely in rough state prior to V2.
The reason I suspect you may find Tridentine rite parishes or chapels flourishing a proportionately more Catholic congregation is that they *bother* to go to these parishes in the first place today.
Versus the new rite churches where perhaps proportionally there are more "less interested" attending.
Selection bias may be more at work today.
Pre-Vatican 2 there was no NO so arguably this selection bias may not have been present.
On a more profound level, maybe Vatican 2 was meant to happen to make people wake up and take things seriously..
But at what cost?
is the fall from grace not an intrinsic evil???
I very much disagree with the guests sympathetic approach to vatican 11.
Welcome to our live show! - Catholic Unscripted
1. Why, 'tis jolly good to see three Brits and a Yankee chap chat on the telly.
2. Dr. Chapp at 11:28-57: "... so now, really to me, the cherry on the ice cream, the final point is his statements in ... well, first off his signing of the Abu Dhabi declaration that God willis the pluralism of religions. They walked it back a little bit but not much, then to the kids in Singapore saying that, you know, he didn't say all religions are equal pathways to God, but he didn't bring up Christ. He didn't preach the love of Christ and further more he compared religions to languages."
Response:
A. The Abu Dhabi declaration, i.e., the Document on Human Fraternity for World Peace and Living Together of February 4, 2019, was an exercise in Vatican statecraft providing cover for peacemaking in the Middle East between the United Arab Emirates and Israel, i.e. between Arabs and Jews.
B. This declaration laid the groundwork for the groundbreaking signing of the Abraham Accords the following year on September 15, 2020, mediated by the United States, that established two bi-lateral agreements between (A) the United Arab Emirates and Israel and (B) Bahrain and Israel. These accords recognized Israel's sovereignty and established full diplomatic relations. The present trouble in the Middle East initiated by Iran through its proxies on October 7, 2023 was intended to disrupt any further peacemaking between Arabs and Jews, particularly between Saudi Arabia and Israel.
C. The link below provides the text of Pope Francis' Mass homily at the Singapore Sports Hub National Stadium on Thursday, 12 September 2024 that contains the following paragraph:
"Faith, then, confirms and enlightens us even more deeply regarding this conviction, because it tells us that at the root of our capacity to love and be loved is God himself, who with a Father’s heart has willed and desired to bring us into existence in an utterly gratuitous way (cf.1 Cor 8:6) and who in an equally gratuitous way has redeemed us and freed us from sin and death, through the death and resurrection of his only Son. IT IS IN JESUS THAT ALL THAT WE ARE AND CAN BECOME HAVE THEIR ORIGIN AND FULFILLMENT."
vatican va /content/francesco/en/homilies/2024/documents/20240912-singapore-messa.pdf
D. It was the address of Pope Francis the following day on Friday, 13 September 2024 at the Interreligious Meeting with Young People, that caused such consternation around the world. However, as Dr. Chapp pointed out, the pope's off-the-cuff remarks can be placed in the context of the Second Vatican Council documents, particularly the dogmatic constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, solemnly promulgated by Pope Paul VI on November 21, 1964, Chapter II - On the People of God, No. 16:
No. 16 - Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. (Mk. 1:15; cf. Mt. 4:17) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. (Cf. Rom. 9:4-5) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues. (Cf. Rom. 1 l:28-2) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, (Cf. Acts 17:25-28) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. (Cf. 1 Tim. 2:4) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. (Mk. 4:14) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. (Lk. 12:32) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator. (Cf Rom. 1:21, 25) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, "Preach the Gospel to every creature", (Gospel of Mark: 16:15, KJV) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.
Vatican VA /archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
E. And if the King James Bible was good enough for St. Mark ...
If latin will not save the world, neither will Novus Ordo.
To the contrary, Novus Ordo is even less likely to do so.
Next time to his Chapp returns will be last time for me as I will check out from catholic unscripted.
I disagree.
I think he has a few important points
@@spykezspykez7001 You are welcome to do so. Free will. Not me.
Your right to do so 👍
But don't throw out the baby with the bathwater is all I'm saying.
hmmm... Its strange, I want to like rassourcement theology and Larry Chapp (and Bishop Barron), but I find myself not really agreeing with or wanting to shy away from all of that. It just doesn't seem to have the clarity of neo scholasticism.
it's res.. not rass... That may help you check it out.
@@GordonSou I'm francophone and it was a typo
Same here
What does it mean to keep Aquinas but "contextualize Aquinas in the broader tradition of the Church"? Does it mean "reinterpret Aquinas" in the light of the broader tradition? Is that what the Nouvelle Theologians were really doing, or were they slyly discarding him? In any event, you can't reinterpret Aquinas and interpret him correctly unless the former interpretation is wrong. So, the presupposition is that the neo-scholastics were misinterpreting Aquinas. I'd like to know what the neo-scholastics got wrong
JP2 was not the superstar for me because I watched with shock when he held those ridiculous Assisi events invwhich he prayed with pagans setting a bad example and the statue of Buddha was placed on a Catholic altar in Assisi. He later kissed a Koran which IS an act of apostasy. His lips were gravel rashed from kissing airport tarmacs which I thought pure theatre. He was a showman. Many of his encyclicals were verbose, imprecise and too frequent. He did not grasp the disengagement Catholics did to cope and he set up a modern cult of personality while in the Papal office. I was confused and dismayed by him during the 1980's when I was in my twenties. JP2 has determination and will power. Benedict XVI was truly a very good Pope. So sad he gave up. His doing so has brought the heterodox into power and its all come to a head. May the reaction after Francis be decisive and "smash them in pieces like a potters vessel".
Maybe your "confusion" was because you were in your twenties. Perhaps you should read George Weigell's outsanding biography "Witness to Hope" with the "arrogance of youth" hopefully now diminished.
CC?
One would expect a theologian to know the difference between material heresy and the category formal heretic. If some one pertinaciously holds views contrary to dogma and doctrine required for assent then material heresy is committed. Scienter is needed for the establishment of formal heretic. One doesn't have to fall into the category of judgment to suggest material heresy has been committed.
I am FOR married priests
We already have that diversity in the Catholic Church. There are Catholic rites with married priests for example the Ukrainian greek Catholic Church, the Chaldean Catholic Church and Maronite Catholic Church.
i agree that the church before the council was rotting within.
I wonder if this particular dialogue will end.up turning some viewers away from catholic unscripted.
This discussion was cut short, it should have been longer
That Brit joke went over like a fart in church.
Sorry Dr, Chapp, try as you might, your attempt in proposing apologia for this Pontificate fails; you allude to the circumstances of this Pope's national origin, influence of his education, etc... to explain his pronouncements and false teachings- circumstances cannot absolve error.
All spiritual enquiry may or may not eventually lead someone to God (let alone Christ). However, that is totally not the same as declaring that all religions are equal to each other in being valid routes to God.
The Pope should know the Catholic message - that only by, in and through Christ will any soul be able to live spiritually with God after death. The Pope should know that this sets the Christian faith apart from all other belief systems, past, present or future.
It seems that although Jorge Bergoglio finds himself Pope of the Catholic Church, he has yet to become a Christian.
The more I think about this presentation, the worse it gets.
Chapp ponders if it acceptable to hope that no one is in hell. And citing the Fatima prayer of the rosary he states we pray this and insultingly asks if we are lying. But, of course, this flatly not true. In the Fatima prayer we ask Jesus "to lead all souls to heaven." We do not ask that He command all souls to follow Him. God gave us free will. We always have a choice to follow God's law and Jesus; or not.
More importantly, Jesus Himself said there would be souls in hell. What does Chapp believe? Does he deny this about Jesus?
He distorts the Fatima prayer and the rosary, why was he permitted to do this? Because he was so adamant? Unacceptable. And the fact that he did distort to make his baseless point, indicates that he may not be relied upon. I wonder, should we also pray for Lucifer?
Chapp denies he is an appostate. I believe him. He seems more like what was called a "cafeteria Catholic" - choose what you like and ignore the rest.
He ponders if he is a heretic. This is good for his soul. I do not judge him. But if he is and has deluded himself, why should we follow him in his delusion.
Chapp clearly has a great deal of knowledge. But we have often observed in life how knowledge is misused. I do not trust his judgement.
A question: if Chapp attends Anglican services I wonder if he attends Catholic Mass as required of Catholics. If he does not, this alone would discourage me from listening to his point of view. And if he attends Angelican services I wonder if he attends Catholic Mass as required of Catholics. If he does not, this also discourages me from giving any weight to his point of view.
I work in housing and when changes are to made the tenants are given a voice and appeal against the changes and they are listened to and ignored and changes are made and we see this in councils and governments etc when changes are hinted at they happen and we see the same in the church whatever is hinted at will happen
All the changes since Vatican 2 has been indoctrinated into the church and laity and accepted Marxism states 20 years and the people are indoctrinated
Vatican 2 is a Marxist revolution and far left and oppressed and the Latin rite the the oppressors and far right
The world has become a global village and far left and there is no room for the far right and the global village has indoctrinated the whole world it’s pagan and Marxist and fixated on Mother Earth
if there is no intrinsic evil in the heart and soul of man why did Jesus heal people from intrinsic evil spirits inhabited within the person???
I have a little joke to myself that Larry mentions he goes to an Anglican Ordinariate parish somehow in pretty much every video. Lol didn’t realize it would get asked when I put it in the chat, nor did I think it would be controversial at all. Lol oops. Love it, love this, love Larry.
It seems to me that the Pentecostal/Catholic Charismatic Movement has room for every Faith.
@@elainemgardens874 ok? Check out Ralph Martin or something I don’t know what to do with this.
God does not will religious diversity. Salvation comes from the Jews. God revealed himself to Abraham and formed his chosen people Israel. Jesus Christ is the messiah of the Jews. Christianity is the only society whose head and founder is God in Jesus Christ. God spoke and taught directly founding the Church. Other religions are philosophical and cult creations of humans. God tolerates but does not in his love will it.