Cheers! This was one of the toughest videos I've ever made and it took almost two weeks just to script and another 2 to actually edit. Thankfully, I'll be making some shorter projects for the rest of may into early June. So frequency should jump up significantly.
I still can't wait for the Parry character vid. The facilitation of these characters (when talking about the actual parries) is based on their fast startup invincible specials that effectively act as a command grab when you're hit. Conceptually, they've got the "No" of Bully characters and the defense of them as well, but that's all they really are. Defense. Their normals are typically slower, weaker, or both (case in point, Anji's Butterfly, a slow moving projectile that I get countered against as well as punished against an oddly high amount of time)
It'll quite likely be on the first poll on patreon! I'm trying to do some characters who rely on projectiles or setplay for the next few videos, since I've now done 4 archetype archives on guys who punch people, but parries are at least a good ways away from the same sort of physical offense I've been covering, and I don't have too many projectile characters planned, so it'll be quite high up the list even if it doesn't wind up next.
I think its weird that people don't look at characters more often this way, since your main goal learning a character, or learning a whole FG, should be to learn all about strengths and weaknesses and the scenarios characters create.
I'm really glad you are back! I'v been waiting a lot for this video and for more archetype archive!!! Amazing video!!! I loved it, by far the best explanation of archetypes and their importance ever Made Thanks for your hard work Is appreciated a lot!!
Much appreciated Arktype! This one took a lot out of me but I did my best to get it out in good time and with good quality. Took basically 2 weeks to write and 2 weeks to edit. Thankfully the boxer video was a lot smoother! Hope you're looking forward to it coming out tomorrow!
@@DarumaFGC yes, i can't wait jaja By the way, i have an idea for you, Maybe you could make character overviews videos, wich mean choosing a game and explaining every character archetype from every character on it. It's a type of analysis that's related to archetypes and that's popular as well. You could make really good videos with that format. You could start with street fighter 2 turbo because it has the grandparents of many archetypes. Is just an idea, don't know if you like it but i would watch that gladly.
It might be something I do in future, but I'm aware some content creators like rooflemonger already do such things and I'd like to bring unique content into the world that people haven't seen elsewhere. If I do do something like it, expect there to be some kind of spin on it. Like a matchup overview where I try to quickly explain as Ryu, how to play against every character in SF6. Or something like that
Small mistake in the number of matchups given a certain number of characters. For example, in Street Fighter 2 (counting Ken and Ryu separate), there aren't 64 matchups, there are only 36. You can't multiply 8x8 because if you do that, you count many of the matchups twice (Dhalsim vs Ryu and Ryu vs Dhalsim are the same matchup, but counted separately multiplying 8x8) Instead, you count 8 matchups involving Ryu, then only 7 new unique matchups involving Ken, as you've already counted Ken vs Ryu. Then 6 new matchups involving Chun Li, then 5 involving Blanka, etc. 8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1= 36 unique matchups in Street Fighter 2. This applies on a larger scale with KOF '98, where there are 1035 matchups, not 2025. TLDR the math is slightly incorrect when counting the number of unique matchups in SFII and KOF '98; there are only 36 matchups in SFII and 1035 in KOF98. Great video though otherwise
That does depend on your perspective though, even though Dhalsim Vs Ryu and Ryu Vs Dhalsim is the same matchup if you're doing a matchup chart for win/loss ratio, the gameplan is different if you're player 1 or player 2, which is the source of the variety I was talking about in that segment. Though the math doesn't account for the duplicate Ryu Vs Ryu and Ryu Vs Ryu matchup, so I did slip up regardless.
@@DarumaFGC Actually, if that's your philosophy with what qualifies as a unique matchup, you didn't slip up. The ditto matchups are actually the only ones that are counted once using your method.
Pixie grapplers would be a cool video. Mostly found in SNK games like Shermie, Vice, Blue Mary but there is Bullet in Blazeblue, I guess Lily and Manon in SF6 and maybe Mika in Under Night?
They're due some coverage, I do hate the term pixie though, I will bring it up in the video when it gets made, but yknow, when you're getting chewed to bits by a blue Mary it doesn't exactly feel like Tinkerbell's sprinkling you with fairy dust. These characters are often as fast as they are brutal, which in my mind doesn't really congeal with the idea of fairies. I have some thinking to do on these guys though, cause I haven't decided if the Agile grappler, like say, Ramon, Alex etc, and the "pixie"-esque ones like Laura, Blue Mary, Abel, etc are actually the same archetype or not. I can't think of a valid on paper difference between the two sets of characters off the top of my head. It'll be something that I come to a decision on during my overall coverage of the grappler.
@@DarumaFGC Counterpoint: mythological fae creatures are fucking brutal. Half-jokes aside, I don't disagree, I just went with that because that's what I've seen people call them. Definitely agree there, I feel like there is a difference but I am not sure how to logically define it. The fact that you don't have that many examples of them like you have a million 'giefs makes it harder too.
Amazing video! Exactly the kind of content I love to see from you. It also made me reconsider an old question I've had. What name would you use to refer to an archetype of a character who has a similar gameplan to a Grappler but doesn't use command grabs? As a Guilty Gear player, Nagoriyuki and Goldlewis come to mind. They've got big hurtboxes, are slow with low mobility, and excel when they manage to get in close, but rather than dealing huge damage with a grab, they do it with short strings of incredibly powerful attack combos. It's incredibly reminiscent of a Grappler, but lacks the defining trait that the name is derived from. It makes it a very difficult archetype to define for me.
Thanks a lot for the question. Nagoryuki was a large part of my video on the Brawler, and I've seen many comments on my video about the bully that Goldlewis plays like a bully. After thinking these things through, I think I'm quite happy with those classifications. On the surface, Nago + Goldlewis only really share two properties, size and damage. But how they reach their damage, actually winds up very different. The way you execute it is different, Nago is strike/throw while Goldlewis is high/low, and the way you defend against both is very different. Goldlewis is playing a very interruptive gameplan. His moves are all too slow to punish almost anything in the game with, or to use to react to anything starting up. Instead, he throws things out when he believes you'll have a move yourself in the air, fishing for counterhits for basically all of neutral. Meanwhile, nagoryuki is much faster and more oppressive, he tends to be the active character in most exchanges, and he has nearly endless momentum the instant he's come into contact with the opponent. He has many ways to skip neutral and force himself to instantly be in the opponents face, a scary oppressive, forward-moving wall for the opponent to deal with. Which is essentially why I covered him in my Brawler video. Hope that makes sense! I'm pretty exhausted since I just got this video out at 4 AM but I hope my brains operating well enough to give you a satisfying answer to your question.
I like a lot of what you've said in this video and others but I strongly disagree with the idea that one should, or even can look at characters in a vacuum. The wider context of the rest of cast and the games core mechanics always comes into play. Claims like "Dhalsim has long normals", "Zangief struggles to approach", and even "Ryu has a tool for every situation" are inherently relative. Now this on its own is mainly pedantic, but I think the bigger issue is when this mindset extends outside of an individual game or series of games. Saying that Ryu would struggle to approach Deathstroke doesn't define him. I'd argue that Archetypes are defined by what makes them unique specifically within an individual game, looking at a characters moveset and properties agnostic to the rest of the game can lead to misinformed conclusions. I can't speak for anyone else, but this is where most of my nitpicks and reservations come from. I think the best example of my problems with this method would be the Brawler. At a glance, this does seem like a useful distinction, and anything that cuts down on the "Everyone in (insert anime game) is a Rushdown." sentiment is good in my book. But every example character you used was from an Arc Sys game, and I'd argue that most of the notable distinctions lie with the overall design of these games, not uniquely with Sol or any of the other characters you chose. Using the freedom of chaining and special cancels to make your offense ambiguous against defensive options like IB and pushblock is a staple of anime games, and forward movement is a necessary part of balancing this. It allows a wider variety of strings to be viable against pushblock. This is something every character needs, That's why Pot got 6K after HFB got worse for pressure. Characters that don't have this kind of pressure (e.g Slayer) are the exception, not the rule. Pointing out that Sols kit has a lot of forward movement that allows him to extend pressure, would be like pointing out that Ryu has multiple moves that can set up frame traps. Another thing that seems notable about Sol is his command grab, but Wild throw isn't really that notable in the context of Guilty Gear. Throws have always been kinda weird in arcsys games, particularly Guilty Gear. Up until Strive they were instant and practically untechable, but unrewarding to compensate. Normal strike throw isn't very rewarding in GG, And because Sol doesn't have much high/low presence, his overall mixup would be terrible without a command grab. Again, this isn't unique to Sol, A good chunk of the cast could either combo off their normal grabs (e.g Jam, Johnny, Dizzy) or also had command grabs (e.g Zato, May, Slayer). A good illustration of this design philosophy is Order Sol. Despite having analogues for pretty much every other one of Sol's special moves, Wild Throw is missing. This is because HOS gets decent combos off of his normal throw. If you look at other anime games with better normal throws you can easily find characters that approximately share Sol's kit sans Wild Throw are pretty common (e.g Ragna). This is also why Wild Throw is worse in Strive, because normal grabs are more rewarding. What I'm getting at is that different games have different norms, so by looking at characters "in a vacuum" you leave yourself open to inaccurate, or at least unhelpful assessments. In the context of fighting games in general, yes Sol does have a lot of forward moving attacks and emphasis on ambiguous pressure relative to most characters, but in the narrower context of GG or anime fighters this doesn't make him that unique. I'd argue the "Has a tool for every situation" statement would be a more useful observation, at least for pre-Strive Sol. You could argue this isn't true because he doesn't have a proper fireball, but with this logic you could also argue that this isn't true of Ryu because he doesn't have a teleport. In the context of their respective games neither of these options are ubiquitous staples. I think how tools fit into the wider context of how a game is generally played is more important that you give it credit for. Archetypes should apply to different games to an extent, but I don't think Archetypes can ever be fully game agnostic.
I'm not suggesting in the video though that archetypes should be game agnostic. But just use common sense. It's obviously not of note that Zangief doesn't have any armored moves in SF2 when literally no one on the roster has any. And similarly it therefore doesn't matter that Dhalsim has no way to deal with armor. I never said anything about being non game specific, just not matchup specific, at least as far as designating who belongs to what archetype. That was my point in that Across every street fighter, Zangief and Dhalsim are the same archetype, even though their movelists have changed dramatically repeatedly throughout them. Brawler does still have notable examples outside of anime games, but they tend to be exceptions because pushback works differently, you don't need to look any further than the raw ire SFV Luke inspired on release for how tradition-breaking that degree of auto-pressure was for street fighter. But that doesn't mean there isn't a fair share of that stuff in games like killer instinct, MK, melty blood, Tekken, Soul Calibur or granblue. I just can't reasonably include thorough, researched examples within the footage of each video in both the length of time it takes to make these videos and the actual screentime of them, since I do have to explain move utility and counter strategy using actual specific onscreen examples. All of which takes time to set up, learn all the ins-and-outs of for each game, and execute.
@@DarumaFGC Well to an extent even pointing out "...that doesn't mean there isn't a fair share of that stuff in games like killer instinct, MK, melty blood, Tekken, Soul Calibur or granblue." Implies that the specific tools are the focus, regardless of how they fit into the rest of the game. Common sense dictates that if something is ubiquitous across the cast it isn't really a defining trait. My point is that different games have different staples, so to an extent certain Archetypes can't exist, or at least aren't relevant, in certain games. I don't think anyone would argue the point that there aren't any zoners in pretty much all 3D fighters. Long ranged moves are almost non-existent, and even in the games that have them they can't control space in the same way. But on the other end of the Spectrum, If a given tool or trait sees wide enough use in most matchups I'd also argue this means an Archetype you might associate them with can't exist in some games, again, at least not in the same way. Luke is a decent example of this, It's been explicitly stated that's he's meant to be the Ryu for a new generation, tool's like Sandblaster and Rising Rocket make this apparent. But almost no-one would argue that these facts necessarily make him a shoto. The Projectile + Anti-Air combo is a staple for SF characters so pointing these tools out wouldn't be a relevant argument against the idea that Luke is a Brawler. You could just as easily argue that Sagat, Guile, and Rose are Shotos. In the context of SFV his forward moving pressure, and even the way his V-meter works to encourage offense are what make him unique. But in the context of anime games these are staples. I'm not saying you need to do in-depth research into every character in every game, but maybe get a general idea of how most sub-genres play before claiming they contain a certain archetype. An Archetype including Sol, Nagoriyuki, Susanooh, and Luke seems a bit too broad to be useful.
Nice. Are you going to cover the multiple definitions of how many use the word "Shoto"? How some use it to refer: - The traditional Shoto-Karate character like Ryu, Ken, Akuma and maybe Sakura. - The character that has a flying-uppercut, side special (close to Tatsumaki) and the fireball. or - The character to start out with that is meant to teach beginners about the fundamentals of the game.
Yeah absolutely. It would be a disservice to not cover each definition and why people think/say each. And then go onto what I think should be called a shoto, and why I think that definition should be the core one.
@@DarumaFGC Nice. From what I've personally seen (and I also use); most call the Shoto the second point, based on the specials. Since after SF2, Ken started being the "aggressive Shoto" while Akuma the "glass-cannon Shoto". And other games implemented some Shoto-like characters for beginners or for people who like that translation of knowledge. I think it just the same rule as the Mishimas; Started out as just to refer to a couple of characters' fighting style, but then overtime it got used to referred to the kit of moves.
I think it's important to define Shoto cause not all all-rounders are shotos, nor are all Shotos all-rounders Already, we have Sol Badguy in Brawler archetype, Sagat in Bully and Ky Kiske in mid-ranger; in spite all of them with strong claims to the Shoto archetype It would be nice to see how these separate archetypes can fit into each character, there's already videos on Tekken archetypes that slot each character is more than one archetype
The early 2000s had already wrung archetypes dry as far as typical things youd see in actual combat scenarios, luchadors, wrestlers, aliens, monsters, soldiers, knights, samurai etc. And so to shake things up we got lots of characters in that timeframe that are extremely unconventional - Turkish oil wrestlers, butler's, whatever you'd call Zafina. You don't typically associate large bodies with speed and animating bouncy materials got at lot easier at that time. For a similar reason, we got Raven in Xrd because of how easy it is to stretch limbs and warp the body of a 3D model compared to a sprite.
I just discovered your channel-and this series-and I love your content. I want to ask, do you have a list or a spreadsheet anywhere of all your archetypes? (Brawler, Midranger, that sort of thing.) I tried a similar project about a year and a half ago, and I made some really good progress (all of which I recorded in a Google spreadsheet + a word doc), but I got stuck on a few definitions. I’d love to trade notes with you sometime!
Sorry bud, i domt have a spreadsheet or anything like that, all this info is just going off a mix of what ive felt about these games for years and the stuff i think other youtubers are ignoring or explaining poorly. No shade on anyone for that, but i think when people get so big and constantly have to re-explain fighting games from the top to their twitch chat, its easy to pretend Zoner, Shoto, grappler and rushdown are all that exist, when it clearly just isnt the case.
@@DarumaFGC That totally makes sense, don't sweat it dude. I think it's really cool that you are trying to fill a hole in the FGC discourse by clearly, concisely explaining these things. I know when I was making my spreadsheet a year ago, I would have really benefited from something like this. I couldn't rely on my own knowledge for every definition because I'm a very casual player and I didn't know enough about every character in the few games I played, let alone characters in games I've never even touched. But I hated relying on discourse or other people's definitions because they were just so vague, unhelpful and contradictory.
A lot of fighting games now are designed to be enjoyed on controller. And everyone finds different input methods easier. There are Tekken champs who use a PS1 controller (no sticks, only D-pad) just because that's what they're comfortable with. Depending on the characters you like, certain controllers can make it easier or harder for you. For the life of me I cannot play grapplers on controller or leverless. It has to be stick for me to do their inputs. But other people do them just fine. Just give fighting games a shot on controller, if you wind up feeling like you'd prefer a different input style, just go for it. It's not an investment you'll regret even if it winds up not being your preference. I personally made the switch to leverless because it makes me feel like the motion inputs are just inputs for combos too. But it's really about as effective as stick, it has advantages and disadvantages. I'm sure you know yourself well enough to know if you need one or not.
It's a bit odd to say, but I think personally he's technically a setplay character. He sets things up to use later. He's just a very odd one since the things he sets up are on his character, and most setplay characters are either automatic, or manual. While Bedman? Is both.
Pretty interesting video. Thanks for the time to be making this one! Although they're not Fighting games specifically... i wonder in what archetype Kya from Kya: Dark Lineage could be categorized, as well as Pseudo from the recent Clash: Artifacts of Chaos. To clarify on both of them: Kya's game is like a 3D platformer, with some focus on wind for traversal, obstacles and light puzzles, as well as a combat system which i've seen being referred to as a mini-tekken. For a 3D platformer type game, it's surprisingly in-depth! There's your basic Punch and Kick combos, some advanced kick combos executed while putting the left analog stick in different directions while pressing the kick button, a variety of grabs depending on Kya's position in relation to the enemy, using enemies *against each other*, and more. Here's a video that shows all of her combat moves and custom combos. ua-cam.com/video/lUiUgy51NS4/v-deo.html Really unique game, the likes of which i haven't seen often and really like in spite of all its flaws. Similarly for Clash: Artifacts of Chaos, which i think is more solid on a technical level. The thing with its main characters, Pseudo, however, is that he's not beholden to a single type of fighting style. Gameplay in that game works by assigning a max of three Special attacks to three different Special Attack inputs, and two fighting Stances to swap between at any time. Even mid-combo. Every stance has inputs consisting of: -A basic combo string, of about three to four inputs. -A charge attack. -A jumping attack. -A running attack. -An attack from a dodge, where Dodge Forward, Dodge Backward and Dodge Sideways have different animations, including attacks performed with them. Of course Pseudo can also block, but he can only really counterattack projectiles by throwing them right back at the opponent. The thing with the Stances is that every stance gives a different animation for *every* input. The fun in that game comes from finding, customizing and generally experimenting with what you find fun, so it's less about finding the optimal strategy. Sadly there's no video detailing every stance and special move thus far, but at the beginning you start out with: -Boxing stance, a basic and solid one. -Spear Stance, for keeping range. -Claw Stance, for wide sweeping attacks while generally holding a lower position compared to the first two. And throughout the game, you can find -Mammoth Stance, the slowest but hardest-hitting of all stances -Lightning Stance, seems to be inspired by Muay Thai -Shadow Stance, seems to be some sort of energy manipulation by way of small energy blasts -Crab Stance, which i find hard to define. Something of a hybrid between Mammoth and Spear + Boxing i guess. -Corwid Stance, which is the weirdest out of all of them and involves the head alongside the arms and legs. There's a lot of fun to be had with this game, and there's fantastic art direction. The Zeno clash series as a whole is known for its bizarre creature designs and weird world. They're not strictly fighting games *as such*, but i'd love for them to become more known and to see what those more known in the fighting game genre would think of them. Both compared to fighting games themselves, as well as on their own merits, shortcomings and everything in-between.
It's a shame how many of these kinds of brawler-esque games with a lot of fighting game mechanics fall to the wayside. I'd recommend Xeno clash to you if you're interested. You're an alien and you beat the life out of other weird aliens just with your fists. There's a spiritual sequel that just came out this month called clash: artifacts of chaos, but I've been way too busy to try it myself.
@@DarumaFGC Thank you for taking the time to reply! I believe you may have not fully read through my comment, because Clash: AoC is exactly one of the two games i mentioned. About two thirds of my comment is dedicated to it :P That may be testament to how busy you are, with many things requiring attention to let a tsunami of text like mine sink in, or to overshoot what's mentioned. For what it's worth from a stranger on the internet, i wish you good luck and fun on all that requires your attention! Similarly so for Kya: Dark Lineage and Clash: AoC, whenever time may allow for checking them out. I've definitely got my eye on the Zeno Clash games after experiencing AoC! I absolutely love monsters, and i find the idea of Zenozoik's strange world right up my alley. Thank you again for the reply! And if it's alright to ask, are there any other brawler/singleplayer Fighter-type games that you have found interesting but aren't well-known?
@@jurtheorc8117 oh good lord, I did read the whole comment but I didn't know what Clash AoC was just from the abbreviation, and while typing my comment had to look up "zeno clash sequel" to see when the new one was coming out, and what it was actually called. I didn't have a clue it released this month at all till doing so, and it didn't click in my head retroactively that that was the game you were talking about. Entirely my bad, I feel awful for the mistake. I think for fisticuff combat, both Mad Max and Arkham Origins are pretty sorely overlooked. In Arkham origins on high difficulties you don't get a parry indicator, and you cannot cancel attacks into parries, it makes you play WAY more focused on the gameplay than other Arkham games as a result, it's incredibly satisfying, and something I'd love to have stayed for future games in that sort of genre. As for more wacky combat, Shadow Warrior 2013 is incredible, again the sort of game you should buckle down on and play on hardest difficulty. It was my GOTY for that year easily, there's a ton of room for expression in the combat but it's extremely difficult and every single combat scenario in the game is set up differently to the last, so you carry a ton of momentum and difficulty forward without it getting repetitive. I suppose I'd count sekiro too, I have a video on my channel about why people should play it, obviously that's a widely known game but it's phenomenal, and I'd count it as far as decision making and reaction in combat goes. Beyond that a lot of stuff either isn't springing to mind immediately, or is so vaguely reminiscent that it just sounds like nonsense to bring up. Metro 2033 has some very intricately designed combat segments throughout and you constantly make decisions about ammo expenditure, breaking stealth, looting for supplies, and it's super hard but feels extremely fair. The resource management kept up a lot of tension in a way most FPS games have completely lost nowadays. Beyond that maybe ask me another day and I'm sure a totally different set of things will come to mind. I do really love high octane but fair games where your moment-to-moment choices feel like they matter. And while I feel this answer was disappointingly mainstream I hope at least some of it is stuff you've overlooked.
@@DarumaFGC No worries, and no need to feel awful! It's something that could happen to all of us, in different ways. Oh dude, you brought up a boatload of titles and rundowns on them! The time spent to be writing an answer does not go unappreciated. Interesting to see the Arkham games being mentioned. I know those games are... contentious in terms of combat design, and the legacy they've had on most high-budget games and combat styles. That said, closest thing to Arkham style combat that i've played is an hour of Shadow of Mordor. And *perhaps* the Hack-and-Slash/Character Action game Soulstice, which came out about half a year ago. The main character, Briar, has her dead sister Lute accompanying her as a spirit. By pressing a button prompt that may appear at any time when an enemy performs an attack --and it's always the same button-- Lute will do stuff like block, send back, outright counter the attack, or even freeze an enemy in place for a few moments. Though that is the extent of where i'd place similarities, and i admit it's a stretch. (Soulstice is a neat game though, amidst its shortcomings, successes, ambition, potential and generally the released product) Not the most familiar with the Mad Max game either, but i've heard decent-to-good things about it here and there. Sounds like high praise, high octane and high adrenalin for Shadow Warrior 2013! That was a kind of reboot of a much older FPS title, right? No worries about bringing stuff up that may sound like nonsense. As you've noticed with me, i already create a few tangents here and there to talk about stuff i find interesting :P I'm mainly interested in third person fighters and hack-and-slash/character action titles, but these other games make for interesting conversation. Even if i may not be as experienced with gun management in FPS games, for example. Will keep that in mind, to mayhaps ask another day! Again, no worries, and especially not about sounding "too mainstream". People talk about what they like, may like what they talk about, and may know a lot about what they like (or even don't like). And conversation can open up the way to looking at things from new perspectives and help get to know each other. Kind of like fighting :P
Nice to see this series back
Cheers! This was one of the toughest videos I've ever made and it took almost two weeks just to script and another 2 to actually edit. Thankfully, I'll be making some shorter projects for the rest of may into early June. So frequency should jump up significantly.
I still can't wait for the Parry character vid. The facilitation of these characters (when talking about the actual parries) is based on their fast startup invincible specials that effectively act as a command grab when you're hit. Conceptually, they've got the "No" of Bully characters and the defense of them as well, but that's all they really are. Defense. Their normals are typically slower, weaker, or both (case in point, Anji's Butterfly, a slow moving projectile that I get countered against as well as punished against an oddly high amount of time)
It'll quite likely be on the first poll on patreon! I'm trying to do some characters who rely on projectiles or setplay for the next few videos, since I've now done 4 archetype archives on guys who punch people, but parries are at least a good ways away from the same sort of physical offense I've been covering, and I don't have too many projectile characters planned, so it'll be quite high up the list even if it doesn't wind up next.
@@DarumaFGC Alright then
Interesting "attribute" perspective: "What can this character do that's special or unusual?"
I think its weird that people don't look at characters more often this way, since your main goal learning a character, or learning a whole FG, should be to learn all about strengths and weaknesses and the scenarios characters create.
I'm really glad you are back! I'v been waiting a lot for this video and for more archetype archive!!!
Amazing video!!! I loved it, by far the best explanation of archetypes and their importance ever Made
Thanks for your hard work Is appreciated a lot!!
Much appreciated Arktype! This one took a lot out of me but I did my best to get it out in good time and with good quality. Took basically 2 weeks to write and 2 weeks to edit. Thankfully the boxer video was a lot smoother! Hope you're looking forward to it coming out tomorrow!
@@DarumaFGC yes, i can't wait jaja
By the way, i have an idea for you, Maybe you could make character overviews videos, wich mean choosing a game and explaining every character archetype from every character on it. It's a type of analysis that's related to archetypes and that's popular as well. You could make really good videos with that format.
You could start with street fighter 2 turbo because it has the grandparents of many archetypes. Is just an idea, don't know if you like it but i would watch that gladly.
It might be something I do in future, but I'm aware some content creators like rooflemonger already do such things and I'd like to bring unique content into the world that people haven't seen elsewhere. If I do do something like it, expect there to be some kind of spin on it. Like a matchup overview where I try to quickly explain as Ryu, how to play against every character in SF6. Or something like that
Small mistake in the number of matchups given a certain number of characters. For example, in Street Fighter 2 (counting Ken and Ryu separate), there aren't 64 matchups, there are only 36. You can't multiply 8x8 because if you do that, you count many of the matchups twice (Dhalsim vs Ryu and Ryu vs Dhalsim are the same matchup, but counted separately multiplying 8x8) Instead, you count 8 matchups involving Ryu, then only 7 new unique matchups involving Ken, as you've already counted Ken vs Ryu. Then 6 new matchups involving Chun Li, then 5 involving Blanka, etc. 8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1= 36 unique matchups in Street Fighter 2. This applies on a larger scale with KOF '98, where there are 1035 matchups, not 2025.
TLDR the math is slightly incorrect when counting the number of unique matchups in SFII and KOF '98; there are only 36 matchups in SFII and 1035 in KOF98.
Great video though otherwise
That does depend on your perspective though, even though Dhalsim Vs Ryu and Ryu Vs Dhalsim is the same matchup if you're doing a matchup chart for win/loss ratio, the gameplan is different if you're player 1 or player 2, which is the source of the variety I was talking about in that segment. Though the math doesn't account for the duplicate Ryu Vs Ryu and Ryu Vs Ryu matchup, so I did slip up regardless.
@@DarumaFGC Actually, if that's your philosophy with what qualifies as a unique matchup, you didn't slip up. The ditto matchups are actually the only ones that are counted once using your method.
This is undoubtedly my favorite series on youtube. Love your vids!
Thanks a lot bud, lots more on the way!
Pixie grapplers would be a cool video. Mostly found in SNK games like Shermie, Vice, Blue Mary but there is Bullet in Blazeblue, I guess Lily and Manon in SF6 and maybe Mika in Under Night?
They're due some coverage, I do hate the term pixie though, I will bring it up in the video when it gets made, but yknow, when you're getting chewed to bits by a blue Mary it doesn't exactly feel like Tinkerbell's sprinkling you with fairy dust. These characters are often as fast as they are brutal, which in my mind doesn't really congeal with the idea of fairies.
I have some thinking to do on these guys though, cause I haven't decided if the Agile grappler, like say, Ramon, Alex etc, and the "pixie"-esque ones like Laura, Blue Mary, Abel, etc are actually the same archetype or not. I can't think of a valid on paper difference between the two sets of characters off the top of my head. It'll be something that I come to a decision on during my overall coverage of the grappler.
@@DarumaFGC Counterpoint: mythological fae creatures are fucking brutal. Half-jokes aside, I don't disagree, I just went with that because that's what I've seen people call them.
Definitely agree there, I feel like there is a difference but I am not sure how to logically define it. The fact that you don't have that many examples of them like you have a million 'giefs makes it harder too.
Amazing video! Exactly the kind of content I love to see from you. It also made me reconsider an old question I've had. What name would you use to refer to an archetype of a character who has a similar gameplan to a Grappler but doesn't use command grabs? As a Guilty Gear player, Nagoriyuki and Goldlewis come to mind. They've got big hurtboxes, are slow with low mobility, and excel when they manage to get in close, but rather than dealing huge damage with a grab, they do it with short strings of incredibly powerful attack combos. It's incredibly reminiscent of a Grappler, but lacks the defining trait that the name is derived from. It makes it a very difficult archetype to define for me.
Thanks a lot for the question. Nagoryuki was a large part of my video on the Brawler, and I've seen many comments on my video about the bully that Goldlewis plays like a bully. After thinking these things through, I think I'm quite happy with those classifications.
On the surface, Nago + Goldlewis only really share two properties, size and damage. But how they reach their damage, actually winds up very different. The way you execute it is different, Nago is strike/throw while Goldlewis is high/low, and the way you defend against both is very different.
Goldlewis is playing a very interruptive gameplan. His moves are all too slow to punish almost anything in the game with, or to use to react to anything starting up. Instead, he throws things out when he believes you'll have a move yourself in the air, fishing for counterhits for basically all of neutral.
Meanwhile, nagoryuki is much faster and more oppressive, he tends to be the active character in most exchanges, and he has nearly endless momentum the instant he's come into contact with the opponent. He has many ways to skip neutral and force himself to instantly be in the opponents face, a scary oppressive, forward-moving wall for the opponent to deal with. Which is essentially why I covered him in my Brawler video.
Hope that makes sense! I'm pretty exhausted since I just got this video out at 4 AM but I hope my brains operating well enough to give you a satisfying answer to your question.
Thank you for the details.
Always welcome!
This is something I’ve been pondering, very good video.
Glad you enjoyed!
Excelent work as always
Cheers Bud!
I like a lot of what you've said in this video and others but I strongly disagree with the idea that one should, or even can look at characters in a vacuum. The wider context of the rest of cast and the games core mechanics always comes into play. Claims like "Dhalsim has long normals", "Zangief struggles to approach", and even "Ryu has a tool for every situation" are inherently relative. Now this on its own is mainly pedantic, but I think the bigger issue is when this mindset extends outside of an individual game or series of games. Saying that Ryu would struggle to approach Deathstroke doesn't define him.
I'd argue that Archetypes are defined by what makes them unique specifically within an individual game, looking at a characters moveset and properties agnostic to the rest of the game can lead to misinformed conclusions. I can't speak for anyone else, but this is where most of my nitpicks and reservations come from. I think the best example of my problems with this method would be the Brawler. At a glance, this does seem like a useful distinction, and anything that cuts down on the "Everyone in (insert anime game) is a Rushdown." sentiment is good in my book. But every example character you used was from an Arc Sys game, and I'd argue that most of the notable distinctions lie with the overall design of these games, not uniquely with Sol or any of the other characters you chose.
Using the freedom of chaining and special cancels to make your offense ambiguous against defensive options like IB and pushblock is a staple of anime games, and forward movement is a necessary part of balancing this. It allows a wider variety of strings to be viable against pushblock. This is something every character needs, That's why Pot got 6K after HFB got worse for pressure. Characters that don't have this kind of pressure (e.g Slayer) are the exception, not the rule. Pointing out that Sols kit has a lot of forward movement that allows him to extend pressure, would be like pointing out that Ryu has multiple moves that can set up frame traps. Another thing that seems notable about Sol is his command grab, but Wild throw isn't really that notable in the context of Guilty Gear.
Throws have always been kinda weird in arcsys games, particularly Guilty Gear. Up until Strive they were instant and practically untechable, but unrewarding to compensate. Normal strike throw isn't very rewarding in GG, And because Sol doesn't have much high/low presence, his overall mixup would be terrible without a command grab. Again, this isn't unique to Sol, A good chunk of the cast could either combo off their normal grabs (e.g Jam, Johnny, Dizzy) or also had command grabs (e.g Zato, May, Slayer). A good illustration of this design philosophy is Order Sol. Despite having analogues for pretty much every other one of Sol's special moves, Wild Throw is missing. This is because HOS gets decent combos off of his normal throw. If you look at other anime games with better normal throws you can easily find characters that approximately share Sol's kit sans Wild Throw are pretty common (e.g Ragna). This is also why Wild Throw is worse in Strive, because normal grabs are more rewarding.
What I'm getting at is that different games have different norms, so by looking at characters "in a vacuum" you leave yourself open to inaccurate, or at least unhelpful assessments. In the context of fighting games in general, yes Sol does have a lot of forward moving attacks and emphasis on ambiguous pressure relative to most characters, but in the narrower context of GG or anime fighters this doesn't make him that unique. I'd argue the "Has a tool for every situation" statement would be a more useful observation, at least for pre-Strive Sol. You could argue this isn't true because he doesn't have a proper fireball, but with this logic you could also argue that this isn't true of Ryu because he doesn't have a teleport. In the context of their respective games neither of these options are ubiquitous staples. I think how tools fit into the wider context of how a game is generally played is more important that you give it credit for. Archetypes should apply to different games to an extent, but I don't think Archetypes can ever be fully game agnostic.
I'm not suggesting in the video though that archetypes should be game agnostic. But just use common sense. It's obviously not of note that Zangief doesn't have any armored moves in SF2 when literally no one on the roster has any. And similarly it therefore doesn't matter that Dhalsim has no way to deal with armor. I never said anything about being non game specific, just not matchup specific, at least as far as designating who belongs to what archetype. That was my point in that Across every street fighter, Zangief and Dhalsim are the same archetype, even though their movelists have changed dramatically repeatedly throughout them.
Brawler does still have notable examples outside of anime games, but they tend to be exceptions because pushback works differently, you don't need to look any further than the raw ire SFV Luke inspired on release for how tradition-breaking that degree of auto-pressure was for street fighter. But that doesn't mean there isn't a fair share of that stuff in games like killer instinct, MK, melty blood, Tekken, Soul Calibur or granblue. I just can't reasonably include thorough, researched examples within the footage of each video in both the length of time it takes to make these videos and the actual screentime of them, since I do have to explain move utility and counter strategy using actual specific onscreen examples. All of which takes time to set up, learn all the ins-and-outs of for each game, and execute.
@@DarumaFGC Well to an extent even pointing out "...that doesn't mean there isn't a fair share of that stuff in games like killer instinct, MK, melty blood, Tekken, Soul Calibur or granblue." Implies that the specific tools are the focus, regardless of how they fit into the rest of the game. Common sense dictates that if something is ubiquitous across the cast it isn't really a defining trait.
My point is that different games have different staples, so to an extent certain Archetypes can't exist, or at least aren't relevant, in certain games. I don't think anyone would argue the point that there aren't any zoners in pretty much all 3D fighters. Long ranged moves are almost non-existent, and even in the games that have them they can't control space in the same way. But on the other end of the Spectrum, If a given tool or trait sees wide enough use in most matchups I'd also argue this means an Archetype you might associate them with can't exist in some games, again, at least not in the same way.
Luke is a decent example of this, It's been explicitly stated that's he's meant to be the Ryu for a new generation, tool's like Sandblaster and Rising Rocket make this apparent. But almost no-one would argue that these facts necessarily make him a shoto. The Projectile + Anti-Air combo is a staple for SF characters so pointing these tools out wouldn't be a relevant argument against the idea that Luke is a Brawler. You could just as easily argue that Sagat, Guile, and Rose are Shotos. In the context of SFV his forward moving pressure, and even the way his V-meter works to encourage offense are what make him unique. But in the context of anime games these are staples.
I'm not saying you need to do in-depth research into every character in every game, but maybe get a general idea of how most sub-genres play before claiming they contain a certain archetype. An Archetype including Sol, Nagoriyuki, Susanooh, and Luke seems a bit too broad to be useful.
Nice. Are you going to cover the multiple definitions of how many use the word "Shoto"? How some use it to refer:
- The traditional Shoto-Karate character like Ryu, Ken, Akuma and maybe Sakura.
- The character that has a flying-uppercut, side special (close to Tatsumaki) and the fireball.
or
- The character to start out with that is meant to teach beginners about the fundamentals of the game.
Yeah absolutely. It would be a disservice to not cover each definition and why people think/say each. And then go onto what I think should be called a shoto, and why I think that definition should be the core one.
@@DarumaFGC Nice.
From what I've personally seen (and I also use); most call the Shoto the second point, based on the specials. Since after SF2, Ken started being the "aggressive Shoto" while Akuma the "glass-cannon Shoto". And other games implemented some Shoto-like characters for beginners or for people who like that translation of knowledge.
I think it just the same rule as the Mishimas; Started out as just to refer to a couple of characters' fighting style, but then overtime it got used to referred to the kit of moves.
Is Sol a shoto?
I think it's important to define Shoto cause not all all-rounders are shotos, nor are all Shotos all-rounders
Already, we have Sol Badguy in Brawler archetype, Sagat in Bully and Ky Kiske in mid-ranger; in spite all of them with strong claims to the Shoto archetype
It would be nice to see how these separate archetypes can fit into each character, there's already videos on Tekken archetypes that slot each character is more than one archetype
I need like a conceptual archetype episode on your oppinon of Bob and Rufus and why they came at the same time
The early 2000s had already wrung archetypes dry as far as typical things youd see in actual combat scenarios, luchadors, wrestlers, aliens, monsters, soldiers, knights, samurai etc. And so to shake things up we got lots of characters in that timeframe that are extremely unconventional - Turkish oil wrestlers, butler's, whatever you'd call Zafina. You don't typically associate large bodies with speed and animating bouncy materials got at lot easier at that time. For a similar reason, we got Raven in Xrd because of how easy it is to stretch limbs and warp the body of a 3D model compared to a sprite.
I just discovered your channel-and this series-and I love your content. I want to ask, do you have a list or a spreadsheet anywhere of all your archetypes? (Brawler, Midranger, that sort of thing.) I tried a similar project about a year and a half ago, and I made some really good progress (all of which I recorded in a Google spreadsheet + a word doc), but I got stuck on a few definitions. I’d love to trade notes with you sometime!
Sorry bud, i domt have a spreadsheet or anything like that, all this info is just going off a mix of what ive felt about these games for years and the stuff i think other youtubers are ignoring or explaining poorly. No shade on anyone for that, but i think when people get so big and constantly have to re-explain fighting games from the top to their twitch chat, its easy to pretend Zoner, Shoto, grappler and rushdown are all that exist, when it clearly just isnt the case.
@@DarumaFGC That totally makes sense, don't sweat it dude. I think it's really cool that you are trying to fill a hole in the FGC discourse by clearly, concisely explaining these things. I know when I was making my spreadsheet a year ago, I would have really benefited from something like this. I couldn't rely on my own knowledge for every definition because I'm a very casual player and I didn't know enough about every character in the few games I played, let alone characters in games I've never even touched. But I hated relying on discourse or other people's definitions because they were just so vague, unhelpful and contradictory.
Love the content and seriously considering getting into Fighting games.Curious if I should get a stick or all button controller?...thanks
A lot of fighting games now are designed to be enjoyed on controller. And everyone finds different input methods easier. There are Tekken champs who use a PS1 controller (no sticks, only D-pad) just because that's what they're comfortable with.
Depending on the characters you like, certain controllers can make it easier or harder for you. For the life of me I cannot play grapplers on controller or leverless. It has to be stick for me to do their inputs. But other people do them just fine. Just give fighting games a shot on controller, if you wind up feeling like you'd prefer a different input style, just go for it. It's not an investment you'll regret even if it winds up not being your preference. I personally made the switch to leverless because it makes me feel like the motion inputs are just inputs for combos too. But it's really about as effective as stick, it has advantages and disadvantages. I'm sure you know yourself well enough to know if you need one or not.
What archetype is Bedman? From ggst?
It's a bit odd to say, but I think personally he's technically a setplay character. He sets things up to use later. He's just a very odd one since the things he sets up are on his character, and most setplay characters are either automatic, or manual. While Bedman? Is both.
Thanks
Anytime! 🍻
🍻
Pretty interesting video. Thanks for the time to be making this one!
Although they're not Fighting games specifically... i wonder in what archetype Kya from Kya: Dark Lineage could be categorized, as well as Pseudo from the recent Clash: Artifacts of Chaos.
To clarify on both of them: Kya's game is like a 3D platformer, with some focus on wind for traversal, obstacles and light puzzles, as well as a combat system which i've seen being referred to as a mini-tekken. For a 3D platformer type game, it's surprisingly in-depth! There's your basic Punch and Kick combos, some advanced kick combos executed while putting the left analog stick in different directions while pressing the kick button, a variety of grabs depending on Kya's position in relation to the enemy, using enemies *against each other*, and more.
Here's a video that shows all of her combat moves and custom combos.
ua-cam.com/video/lUiUgy51NS4/v-deo.html
Really unique game, the likes of which i haven't seen often and really like in spite of all its flaws.
Similarly for Clash: Artifacts of Chaos, which i think is more solid on a technical level.
The thing with its main characters, Pseudo, however, is that he's not beholden to a single type of fighting style.
Gameplay in that game works by assigning a max of three Special attacks to three different Special Attack inputs, and two fighting Stances to swap between at any time. Even mid-combo.
Every stance has inputs consisting of:
-A basic combo string, of about three to four inputs.
-A charge attack.
-A jumping attack.
-A running attack.
-An attack from a dodge, where Dodge Forward, Dodge Backward and Dodge Sideways have different animations, including attacks performed with them.
Of course Pseudo can also block, but he can only really counterattack projectiles by throwing them right back at the opponent.
The thing with the Stances is that every stance gives a different animation for *every* input. The fun in that game comes from finding, customizing and generally experimenting with what you find fun, so it's less about finding the optimal strategy.
Sadly there's no video detailing every stance and special move thus far, but at the beginning you start out with:
-Boxing stance, a basic and solid one.
-Spear Stance, for keeping range.
-Claw Stance, for wide sweeping attacks while generally holding a lower position compared to the first two.
And throughout the game, you can find
-Mammoth Stance, the slowest but hardest-hitting of all stances
-Lightning Stance, seems to be inspired by Muay Thai
-Shadow Stance, seems to be some sort of energy manipulation by way of small energy blasts
-Crab Stance, which i find hard to define. Something of a hybrid between Mammoth and Spear + Boxing i guess.
-Corwid Stance, which is the weirdest out of all of them and involves the head alongside the arms and legs.
There's a lot of fun to be had with this game, and there's fantastic art direction. The Zeno clash series as a whole is known for its bizarre creature designs and weird world.
They're not strictly fighting games *as such*, but i'd love for them to become more known and to see what those more known in the fighting game genre would think of them. Both compared to fighting games themselves, as well as on their own merits, shortcomings and everything in-between.
It's a shame how many of these kinds of brawler-esque games with a lot of fighting game mechanics fall to the wayside. I'd recommend Xeno clash to you if you're interested. You're an alien and you beat the life out of other weird aliens just with your fists. There's a spiritual sequel that just came out this month called clash: artifacts of chaos, but I've been way too busy to try it myself.
@@DarumaFGC Thank you for taking the time to reply! I believe you may have not fully read through my comment, because Clash: AoC is exactly one of the two games i mentioned. About two thirds of my comment is dedicated to it :P
That may be testament to how busy you are, with many things requiring attention to let a tsunami of text like mine sink in, or to overshoot what's mentioned. For what it's worth from a stranger on the internet, i wish you good luck and fun on all that requires your attention!
Similarly so for Kya: Dark Lineage and Clash: AoC, whenever time may allow for checking them out.
I've definitely got my eye on the Zeno Clash games after experiencing AoC! I absolutely love monsters, and i find the idea of Zenozoik's strange world right up my alley.
Thank you again for the reply! And if it's alright to ask, are there any other brawler/singleplayer Fighter-type games that you have found interesting but aren't well-known?
@@jurtheorc8117 oh good lord, I did read the whole comment but I didn't know what Clash AoC was just from the abbreviation, and while typing my comment had to look up "zeno clash sequel" to see when the new one was coming out, and what it was actually called. I didn't have a clue it released this month at all till doing so, and it didn't click in my head retroactively that that was the game you were talking about. Entirely my bad, I feel awful for the mistake.
I think for fisticuff combat, both Mad Max and Arkham Origins are pretty sorely overlooked. In Arkham origins on high difficulties you don't get a parry indicator, and you cannot cancel attacks into parries, it makes you play WAY more focused on the gameplay than other Arkham games as a result, it's incredibly satisfying, and something I'd love to have stayed for future games in that sort of genre.
As for more wacky combat, Shadow Warrior 2013 is incredible, again the sort of game you should buckle down on and play on hardest difficulty. It was my GOTY for that year easily, there's a ton of room for expression in the combat but it's extremely difficult and every single combat scenario in the game is set up differently to the last, so you carry a ton of momentum and difficulty forward without it getting repetitive.
I suppose I'd count sekiro too, I have a video on my channel about why people should play it, obviously that's a widely known game but it's phenomenal, and I'd count it as far as decision making and reaction in combat goes.
Beyond that a lot of stuff either isn't springing to mind immediately, or is so vaguely reminiscent that it just sounds like nonsense to bring up. Metro 2033 has some very intricately designed combat segments throughout and you constantly make decisions about ammo expenditure, breaking stealth, looting for supplies, and it's super hard but feels extremely fair. The resource management kept up a lot of tension in a way most FPS games have completely lost nowadays.
Beyond that maybe ask me another day and I'm sure a totally different set of things will come to mind. I do really love high octane but fair games where your moment-to-moment choices feel like they matter. And while I feel this answer was disappointingly mainstream I hope at least some of it is stuff you've overlooked.
@@DarumaFGC No worries, and no need to feel awful! It's something that could happen to all of us, in different ways.
Oh dude, you brought up a boatload of titles and rundowns on them! The time spent to be writing an answer does not go unappreciated.
Interesting to see the Arkham games being mentioned. I know those games are... contentious in terms of combat design, and the legacy they've had on most high-budget games and combat styles. That said, closest thing to Arkham style combat that i've played is an hour of Shadow of Mordor.
And *perhaps* the Hack-and-Slash/Character Action game Soulstice, which came out about half a year ago. The main character, Briar, has her dead sister Lute accompanying her as a spirit. By pressing a button prompt that may appear at any time when an enemy performs an attack --and it's always the same button-- Lute will do stuff like block, send back, outright counter the attack, or even freeze an enemy in place for a few moments.
Though that is the extent of where i'd place similarities, and i admit it's a stretch.
(Soulstice is a neat game though, amidst its shortcomings, successes, ambition, potential and generally the released product)
Not the most familiar with the Mad Max game either, but i've heard decent-to-good things about it here and there.
Sounds like high praise, high octane and high adrenalin for Shadow Warrior 2013! That was a kind of reboot of a much older FPS title, right?
No worries about bringing stuff up that may sound like nonsense. As you've noticed with me, i already create a few tangents here and there to talk about stuff i find interesting :P I'm mainly interested in third person fighters and hack-and-slash/character action titles, but these other games make for interesting conversation. Even if i may not be as experienced with gun management in FPS games, for example.
Will keep that in mind, to mayhaps ask another day! Again, no worries, and especially not about sounding "too mainstream". People talk about what they like, may like what they talk about, and may know a lot about what they like (or even don't like). And conversation can open up the way to looking at things from new perspectives and help get to know each other. Kind of like fighting :P