First off, let me start by thanking everyone who has liked and subscribed. I never dreamed this video would be as popular as it is, and I’m truly thankful. Second, I want to address the most commonly asked questions about the video to help clear up a few things. 1: “Why didn’t you use (X character) as an example?!” The reason you saw a lot of Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, and Smash characters was because of two main reasons. First, popularity. This video is targeted at newer players, so I tried to pull from less obscure games so that people would understand what I was talking about. Sure, I could’ve used Carl from BlazBlue as a puppet example, but 98% of the audience wouldn’t know who he was. Second is experience. I have played tons of fighting games, but I’d say I’m only at a decent competitive level for SFV, the GGs, and maybe Skullgirls and HFTF. I don’t wanna talk about a game I only have less than 100 hours of experience in. 2: “Why isn’t (X Archetype) mentioned?!” Simple. Runtime. This video is already 15 minutes long, and I wanted to explain everything in depth while also not making an hour long video. 3: “Why not charge characters?” I plan to make a separate video on input styles in fighting games where I’ll go in depth about charge inputs, so that’s where you’ll find my take about that. 4: “Cecilia isn’t a puppet character!” Google did me dirty, asked what were puppet characters for BlazBlue and they said Cecilia and Carl. Not even a single mention of Relius (I didn’t own CF until recently) 5: “This isn’t what (X archetype) is!” Remember, every single fighting game is built differently. Put a rushdown character from Street Fighter against one from Guilty Gear and you’ll see what I mean. I tried to provide a broad definition of the mere basics a character in that category would have, but every single game functions differently and awards different tools to its characters. 6: “Why is (archetype A) seperate from (archetype B) when (archetype A) has characteristics of (Archetype B)?!” Remember: My main point was fighting game characters are a recipe. While it’s true lots of rushdown characters have mixup potential, they’re both seperate ingredients that come together to create the character you love. Chocolate chip cookies don’t come with chocolate in the dough, you gotta mix them together to make the final product. Again, thanks so much for all the support, and if you still have any questions, feel free to ask away, I try to reply to as many (non-stupid) comments as I can!
I know it’s just a mix of the mentioned archetypes but I’m surprised you didn’t mention the trapper archetype because you see it a lot in fighting games now a days. It’s a kind of mix of both the zoner and set play archetype that you mentioned. Naoto from Persona 4 arena, Erin Black for mortal combat, Chris Redfield for marvel vs capcom and Snake for Smash Bros come to mind in my opinion. They tend to have the tools to give themselves space from the zoner archetype and or big pools of health to help them set up traps, normally have big damage output and set up traps like the set play archetype to extend, start up or finish combos with massive damage.
I'd argue Tekken and the Marvel vs Capcon series and even Mortal Kombat are more popular than Guilty Gear, and you didn't use examples from them at all. They have extremely good examples for gimmick characters and stance characters, though it might just be because you've played Guilty Gear more so there's a distinct bias towards it.
I disagree with lots of the sentiments in this post. 1. _Regarding popularity:_ I can somewhat see this argument with "simpler" arcetypes as Shoto or Rushdown, but is there really any character that is on the same level asn Carl for a Puppeteer? You still list three characters, making one of them "obscure" shouldn't really be a problem when it is a _really good_ example. (really sad to learn that BB is obscure, but it is probably true) Furthermore, if this really is for newbies, I don't think you are doing the fighting game community a service by only mentioning 4 games. Showing the wide diversity of games in this genre surely is going to spark more interest. _Regarding experience:_ How much expereince do you need to know that Tager is a Grappler? That Bridget is a set-up/trapper? If you really value experience so much, you should probably reach out to fellows in the community to get more input on the topic. 2. I think your video is stuck somewhere in between for-newbies and for-community-members. To make it more newbie-friendly it should probably be less than 10 minutes and you should probably list the characteristics of the types with big text at the end of each segment to summarize. The way you started each segment with gameplay and not writing out the type beforehand, screams "you know this character, so which category is s/he?" and only seems appropriate in a video targeted at people well-versed in fighting games. 6. You started the video with that excellent cake recipe analogy, but it was forgotten for the rest of the video, which is why maybe some viewers also forgot that. When you presented your example characters for each type, you should probably have written the recipe under each picture. If you did, I _would buy_ your argument of experience for only showing characters of four games, as _that_ surely is something only one with experience can do. I really liked how you for example during the Shoto explanation showed many different characters doing their similar moves, that was really a good way to convey their simililarities. You should've probably included similar clips in all explanations. Congratulations on making your first hit video! I hope that you could take the critique that I, and certainly more so, other more experienced people have given. (I'm just a guy who is total scrub in BB after playing on off for 10 years so...) I'm sure you have other videos planned, but I think you should after reading up and discussing the topic with the community, you should release a updated version of this video. Best regards and best of luck!
On the other hand, Luigi (at least modern Luigi, i.e. Sm4sh and SmUsh) is more of a Grappler with his miserable range on most moves, meh movement and deadly-explosive punishes.
If the transformation was faster and Zelda herself not hilariously trash as a character, you probably would have seen a lot of stance dancing mixups that would be a lot of fun to use.
I play Kirby in smash but I have perfected my own playstyle with him I barelly transform I rarely ever use his succ(insert sound echo hear) ability I grab a lot and throw a lot and when Items spawn I grab one and beging my second stage I throw what ever Item I picked(it's medium weight for this purpose too light will almost float in he same place and too heavy will land in front of your feet) at the oponent from one side to the other and rush down to grab the item so I can grab it while the oponent is staggered and throw it again against the enemy before the throw that makes the item disapear I use it normaly.
@@Colorless_Reaper That's more so casual smash. When items are off, Kirby tends to struggle a lot more. I wouldn't really call him shit in Ultimate (that's more so Melee and Smash 4, and characters in Ultimate don't really fall below mid-tier aside from a select few characters), but he's definitely a mid tier character in terms of the competitive landscape.
I applied to Harvard as a high school drop out and they said "lmao what" and then I picked Zato=1 on character select screen and they made me the dean of students
Fighting game jargon not explained in-video (long message warning btw): 2:18 Footsies - well-spaced movement. Being good at footsies means knowing when to approach, when to retreat, and where you and your opponent want to be relative to each other Midrange Game* - a game state in which players are a medium distance from each other, far enough to avoid most attacks but close enough that either could run in and attack if they saw an opening Fireball Game* - similar to above, a game state in which either player could hit the other with a projectile and must be ready to avoid it Coverage - the ability for a character to counter multiple different ways the opponent could approach 2:39 Reversal - a move that allows a character to get out of a disadvantageous state (such as the middle of being comboed) and avoid damage or death if used properly, but weakens them even further if misused Anti-Air - a move that counters approaches or attacks from above Normals/Buttons - basic attacks (usually with punch & kick or light & heavy variations) 3:34 Okizeme/Wakeup Game - idfk man Mix-up - alternate methods of approaching, attacking, or comboing that your opponent might be unprepared for 7:03 Cross-up - a method of getting behind your opponent Pressure - using many, often varied, attacks to either overwhelm a defending opponent or force them to try and escape, counterattack, or take all the hits you're dishing out Matchup - how well or poor you'd expect one character to fare against another based on their archetypes, moves, stats, and other traits assuming both players are of roughly equal skill 13:50 Knockdown* - there are multiple ways to define this but generally, it's a player state in which you're unable to attack for a certain amount of time, allowing the opponent to do something that's normally too risky Neutral - a game state in which neither players have an advantage and both are trying to gain one over the opponent through positioning, footsies, and safe (low-risk) moves Snowball - not specific to fighting games, but it means furthering an advantage over your opponent * - things I'm not certain on but have a decent feel for and figured I could still reasonably explain. Correct me if I'm wrong in the replies
As someone who likes fighting games casually but isn't super hardcore into the FGC scene I've been trying to figure out what okizeme/wakeup game is for good minute too lol. I know wakeup refers to getting up after being knocked down but in this case would it be an advantage at recovering from being knocked down or being able to fuck with others as they're recovering? Oh well, still picked up a lot of other neat little facts here though.
@@ozairchishti1264 Okizeme is effectively wakeup pressure. Millia Rage in Guilty Gear Strive, for example, has *RIDICULOUS* levels of Okizeme with her Tandem Top projectile. This makes it so that she wants to cause a hard knockdown, to put that projectile on you that you HAVE to block on wakeup and force a 2-way mixup (High/low or left/right) that will just snowball into another Okizeme situation if you guess wrong.
Okizeme roughly just means advantage from knockdown, and the following pressure In it’s basic form, it’s a meaty(attack that hits on its late frames), but many characters in many games have different forms oki For instance, in DBFZ, after using her LV3, Android 21 has +18 frames, and she can only get a safejump j.H or 2M as her oki, making it relatively poor But for Vegito’s LV3, he has the option to vanish, and then go for an ambiguous cross-up/sameside mix, dragon rush, meaties, basically anything he wants (very good oki) And then there was GTku in season 2 with his balls-ridiculous +100 spirit bomb oki mixup game what the heck even was that
He kinda counts as a gimmick-grappler imo - Gimmick because he does play a different game - Grappler because of his ridiculously low range, coupled with his below average speed, make it difficult to approach for him, but due to his combo potential make him extremely threatening once he does get in
Nah if you're talking about that game, the most blatant and potent example would be dark Phoenix. Typically the only thing she's used for is her gimmick and it doesn't require any active setup unlike... The other gimmick Phoenix in the same game.
@@CtrlAltRetreat I would say that Phoenix Wright is a ‘gimmick character’ because all if not most of his moves are gimmicky and unpredictable. I would say that Dark Phoenix has a ‘gimmick comeback mechanic’ but Dark Phoenix is not a gimmick character. There is nothing gimmicky about her moves overall when compared to the rest of her cast but there sure is something very, very gimmicky about her X-Factor... She becomes a different character once that becomes activated.
hey there, i’m a college student writing a formal paper breaking down the logic of fighting games. i’m allowed to use 2 non academic sources and i chose this video as one of mine. i gotta say this video is rlly well made and helped me a lot during this paper.
13:20 Steve (from smash) is definitely a gimmick character that uses his tools to zone. His mining mechanic changes based on the material of the fricking stage, even stages in a “normal” variant (used to play good looking stages or stages with good music while still being competitive), can change his game play a fair amount. If anyone wants further info, reply and I’ll edit the comment.
@@blightyfrogs sorry, I stupidly didnt mention steve is from smash, hope i didnt confuse you. Also, huge explanation inbound, buckle up. If you already knew, well, not all zoners are equal. He does have a good ledge trap that could theoretically give Snake a run for his money, but his constant requirement of needing resources combined with his arguably superior method of building walls causes the steve community to agree Steve is a more textbook zoner that, quite literally, walls you out. Plus, even if Steve never needed to mine, his ledge setups are harder to preform than snake, making a mistake could cause steve to lose stage control or even end up in disadvantage. It’s sometimes better for him to do more normal ledge trapping to reduce resource usage and risk, plus it makes it a bit more likely he’ll land an uptilt or jab to preform his combos. When using blocks in neutral, he can mine for materials while his opponent tries to break through his defense. Although counter play to steve is a bit awkward, it’s still pretty simple most of the time. Assuming Steve has a 3 block tall wall (which isn’t always gonna happen, sometimes a single block is good enough), you can either use long ranged attacks to safely destroy them, try to use disjoints specifically to hit steve (Bemonts and Byleth are pretty good), or jump over (most common.) Counter-play to this is Steve simply builds or punishes faster than the opponent can when they break the blocks, Steve baits the disjoints by sheilding and punishing with dash attack, fair or bair, and Steve can easily punish jump with his disjointed and extended upsmash. Of course, opponents can bait these out, and at that point it’s essentially rock-paper-scissors. If Steve decides to try a different wall, for example, 2 block tall with the bottom block not placed, Steve can run through and suprise the opponent (only a block on the ground can stop a running opponent), use side b as either a burst option or a projectile (If he rides it it’s a strong attack, if he exits instantly it’s a projectile), or bait opponents that know they can run through so he can land a combo starter. Anyways, im done, if you need more info, lemme know
Yeah they are rushdown + whatever the secondary fighting style is Broly is a Grappler and a Rushdown with proyectiles. This combination is good in DBFZ but if this exist in another game like Street Fighter it will be totally Broken.
I think due to a combination of the mechanics of the game and just how each characters movesets are, every character is a combination of Rushdown and something else. For example Beerus has Zoning and Setplay elements, The Brolys and 18 are Pseudo-grapplers, UI Goku is a counter character, etc. But all of them are still primarily Rushdown in their gameplan. (i.e. they want to get close and pressure until you guess wrong on a mix up) Mechanics like the super dash make it easy and effective to just play as unga bunga as possible, and when you factor in that every character has 4 way mix ups in any given block string, it’s kind of hard to not have a rushdown meta.
@@holdenkimura5034 I'm saying that mechanics like superdash, dragonrush from 5L, IAD mix-ups, assists, etc, all these universal mechanics and then a lack of immensely strong universal defense options other than blocking, reflect, guard cancel, and spark (three of these being able to be punished harshly if done recklessly)... These all lead to universally everyone being able to play rushdown, and not only that, but the game entirely favouring the rushdown gameplan with how heavily you can pressure somebody in the corner with almost any character when you play right. It's because of those reasons I feel like less it's a unique character trait to call everyone in DBFZ "Rushdown" and more the game itself is Rushdown, with every character then having types that build off that system. TL;DR, I don't see classifying characters as Rushdown in DBFZ, unless they clearly are, as really being a great way to classify them as it isn't unique to the character, it's just how the game itself is made in a Rushdown style.
Thank you for this. It wouldn't kill the guy who made the video to leave timestamps on his description or PIN you comment. It's like he wants everyone to watch his video from beginning to end. I know, no duh.
He does that shit too, you wanna use discs to stay plus and get in, he has good stagger pressure inside but his mix is weak af. Source: am one of a dozen Frieza players in the world.
@@Sir_Isaac_Newton_ Literally not true, the only thing Frieza has is damage and loops, which is only available in Golden Form as well as his Golden Form only being usable ONCE a match.
i count 2 types of pupet characters, we see quite a lot of each and they rarely cross, puppet characters and projectile puppeteers?... im ignoring assist characters but anyways, puppet chara control 2 characters (the classic ones like Zato, and those BB characters) where progectile pupeteers command a small projectile separately, like Menat (SF) or Ms Fortune (SG) or Bridget (GG)
I just recalled i also separate both shoto and grappler archetypes into 2 each, game shoto, basic character with tools fitting for the game, if a gimmic is involved, its simple enough to be easy to pick up, still can be powerfull if mastered (ragna from blazblue, kazuya from tekken, and fillia from SG shows how diferent it can be from ryu) and classic shoto with the classic tools for the job, projectile, tatsu, shortu, eich work for classic situations but in some games these situations arent what makes the game, becoming familiar to outsiders but a gimmic fighter for the general cast (akuma on Tekken 7, master roshi from dbfz, or in other genres, soldier76 from overwatch or Victor from Paladins)
Great video! While the definitions aren't concrete, you've got this literally down to a science (a way to understand just about any character and/or mechanics.) Beyond that, knowing what these terms mean has cleared up a few old conversations- thanks!
Jojo is interesting in that everyone kind of does it but there's one true puppet character who is kind of the father of the archetype in all games, and that's Devo. He really embodies the idea to the max since not a single one of his special moves is actually performed by him, they're all done by the doll instead.
Still Wish we got a JoJo game where you do something other than fight and Kill one another non stop. A JoJo RPG (That gets rid of the annoying as Sin Turn Based Menu Dog vomit) would be most appreciated.
@@SpeedKing.. have you forgotten tandem mode? And remote mode? Surprisingly there are only actually ten characters capable of tandem attack as there are quite a few passive stand users but even then that's just under than half of the cast having access to puppet character moves, although I can see what you mean if you say that their whole kit isn't based around being a puppet character. Otherwise if you simply forgot or didn't know about remote stand mode and tandem attack then it's kind of hypocritical that you are saying that nimaiiikun doesn't understand the game systems.
I was super surprised King from the tekken series wasnt in the grappler examples. He's usually the first person I think of when I think of throws in fighting games. Fantastic video!
Tekken really breaks the rules for his categories though. Throws work different too so which yeah king is 100% a grappler, he isn't what this video was referring to. I mean king has a running throw and his capital punishment gives you an uninteruptable giant swing on block so he has no difficulty getting in really
@@goldenhydreigon4727 He did say most area mix of different archetypes. He thene described the quintessence of the archetype, but few characters will be purely one or another, so obviously some of the examples won't be perfect.
this is so helpful to me as an artist!! I'm going to start designing fighting game characters for a personal project soon and I love having this as a resource
As a Soul Calibur player, I was waiting for even a single example from the series and was mildly surprised when Necrid from Soul Calibur 2 wasn't mentioned for a composite character since it's a perfect example.
I’d like to make the case that trapper is an archetype in and of itself. While “mixup” does somewhat cover the concept of a trapper character, I think the identity of trapper is distinct enough for it to stand out on its own for a few reasons: Mixup characters tend to be focused on making you make guesses as to what you’re doing next, but don’t necessarily push to limit options on what you *can* do to respond. Basically, if I’m subject to mixup a, and I have response a, b, or c, those responses are roughly the same for my opponent’s mixup b-although the correct response is different. I think the trapper archetype often has crossover with the mixup archetype, as they both want to force the opponent to make reads-however, I think trapper emphasizes the *removal* of options from an opponent’s kit, while also the eating a very specific and lethal “trap” for the opponent to fall into. A trapper might subject an opponent to their mixup a, where the opponent can respond with a b or c, but their mixup b can only be responded to with a or b. Basically, the idea of limiting options. I can only really argue that this archetype exists in smash ultimate, based on my experiences. An example of what I would consider to be a trapper would be someone like Pac-Man or Robin. Trappers typically have strong normals, a high variance projectile, a technical tool, and moderate to low end kill power outside of their *trapping* opportunities. Example: Pac-Man has several different projectiles that change as you charge the ability. Each projectile plays a roll, but the projectiles alone are too slow to be used consistently as your primary neutral game. Instead, the projectiles are used to force opponents into bad situations or create mixups where you can secure an early kill, and these mixups are made into traps through competent use of your hydrant. The key difference between a trapper and a mixup character is that the trapper archetype is oriented around setting a trap for the opponent to fall into, while the mixup character uses those mixups more directly and offensively. Basically, trapper is setup+mixup with a little bit of zoning mixed in, I feel.
Trapper IS a recognized fighting game character archetype, usually seen as a specific type of zoner, but it's specific to platform fighters (such as Super Smash Brothers). This is mostly because the trapper's playstyle is stage control via limiting an opponent's mobility, something that is only reasonable with larger stages that have a variety of movement options. Pac-Man definitely counts as a trapper, Robin not so much, but the best, most archetypal example is Solid Snake. Isabelle, Villager, and (to a lesser extent) Steve are also trappers. All of them are very stage-positioning heavy characters - they have major, gameplay-defining projectiles with the limitation that they're either affixed to a set spot on the ground or are only effective at very specific angles + distances. The goal becomes to get your opponent into the specific space you need them to be. THAT is considered the most crucial aspect of the archetype.
@@TheStarsTwilight I think Piranha Plant also counts as a trapper, since most of that character's game plan revolves around having poison cloud or ptooie out to pressure opponents, as well as having some pretty strong normals.
Another good example of a trapper is Cagliostro from GBVS, actually. Her whole gameplay goes around her mehen traps and her different ways to force her opponents into them to start her combos with her strong normals or charge her rock from afar and use her zoning tools, making her incredibly annoying to deal with if you know how to play her.
Until MK11 I'd say Shang was more of a stance character since he completely switches into those movesets rather than using multiple people's moves at once. However he didn't mention the OG composite character; Ogre/True Ogre.
@@General_Weebus a stance/composite character I love this mix as its very versatile but it can be hard since you have to beat tat the right moment and time to take abilities and do damage they way you should
After watching this I realise Beowulf from Skullgirls isn't just a grappler, but also a rushdown. He has a lot of options once he grabs you and Aa special that let's him do these one after another, while he also has moves to close the distance and then deal some serious damage.
He's a power up/stance character. he collects evidence to power up and can get rid of bad evidence with a stance super, definitely a marvel only type character since he's very weak up until the very moment he powers up, then he wishes you a merry Christmas and hits you with the Fullscreen super.
Fun Fact! The first ever Puppet Character is Devo from JoJo's Bizzare Adventure: Heritage For the Future. Also, Guile was inspired from both Polnareff and Stroheim.
Personally I would probably have split gimmick into pure gimmicks and resource characters as their own archetypes. I would also totally put Dizzy instead of Answer as an example of setplay lmao.
Dizzy is also kinda special, She sets up her gameplay only for next few seconds, actually all she needs is right fish, and position, dunno about Xrd one tho, haven't played her/against her very often.
I think Ms. Fortune categorizes more as a rushdown character than an puppet one since all her tools are made go get in into the enemy's defenses. the head only helps with that processes of keeping the enemy at bay and extending combos, not something you will rely to much as damage dealing method like other puppet characters
Am Ms. Fortune main, can confirm. Her pressure just with her normals and juggling potential is crazy good. And the head as a bowling/soccer ball is, when used well, great as an alternative opener to the opponent's defenses, as they not only have to focus on you, but your head bouncing around, too! As per hitbox rules, leaving it out makes for a secondary target, as the head can be knocked around at YOU if the opponent knows what's going on.
She a bit of both, but I think his bigger argument here is that each character is different percentages of each archetype to make them unique, the same way Leo is rush down & stance
My Friend has recently discovered they have some natural talent with Ms. fortune and let me tell you... my Big Band parry game HAD to be on point or else I was not going to get to play my turn. The pressure from his Fortune was insane.
Okay so from what I learned: -Shotos are the basic yet effective guys. -Grapplers are (usually) big and will suplex you. -Zoners like to remain far away from their opponents & hit them from afar. -Rushdowns like to come close and punch you in the face. -Puppets are like playing 2 characters at once. -Stances are 2-in-1 archetype combo. -Composites are a mix of every character. -Mixups are meant to confuse the opponent in the match. -Gimmicks play by their own rules because fuck the rules. -Setplays have to setup everything before they can be considered a threat. For real tho, I'm glad this video exists. I only know the bare minimum when it comes to character fighting archetypes & this video really helped me learn more about the other character archetypes I didn't know about.
Pretty much, although I’d say for setplay it’s more that the looming threat of letting them get set up is what defines the match. Nice username btw lmao
One more thing, charge characters are characters that have to charge their specials before they can use them(SF guile), or charge them to make them better(SG squigly)
@@bigdog421 Any archetype that fits to the character he's mimicking! If he's mimicking Marduk he's a grappler, if he's mimicking Ling Xiayou he's stance and so on.
If only there was like... a wiki that broke down every/most every fighting game character like this. That would be a great study asset. Would Riptor and Saberwulf from killer insinct be considered rushdown? and would Liu Kang from MK be considered shoto?
I know this is an old comment but most MK characters are Shotos, having good all-around options, one or more projectiles or teleport-based attacks, and benefit from different movement options
@@atomicwheeze8756 old but at least someone responded! thanks for that. I've always considered Scorpion to be a rushdown-shoto, as most of his combos, especially in 9/10 benefit from rush down playstyle, and keeping pressure on others.
@@navybr0wnie Oh yeah 100%, especially with strong mix-ups in the form of teleport, aerial teleport, and takedown, at least as of MKX. His spear also gives him a very powerful ranged option that covers near full-screen and punishes massively if not blocked. If his normals were better he’d be an absolute beast!
@@atomicwheeze8756 I know in MK11, if you had demon dash, and the spear extended skills you could get some solid hits in, I think i've gotten at least 12 hit kombo from it, douible down with a perfect meter burned TP, into overhead, and you could justr juggle the hell out of someone. Always enjoyued scorpions overheads ngl.
@@atomicwheeze8756I’ve never played/watched a lot of mortal combat but do you think that the fact everyone is shoto-esque sort of changed the criteria? Like if most characters have shoto aspects, the one who benefits the most from getting in would become the rushdown character within the game. Like if you transported them into street fighter they’d all be shotos, but within the context of their game the small differences define their archetype rather than the big ones?
I love how this can be applied to Devil May Cry characters too. From DMC4SE and DMC5SE: Nero: is a clear Grappler type, with a Shoto sprinkle in it, that grapples enemies with his Devil Bringer and Buster moves to deal massive damage. Dante: the strongest Stance character there is, with his multiple Styles, each absurdly strong at what it does. Vergil: Easily a Rushdown character that focuses on absurd speed and fast moves; V: Puppet character that controls up to 3 characters at once, weak physically, but with very strong attacks from his summons. Lady: is a clear Zoner that keeps enemies at a distance with firearms; Trish: has a mix of everything and isn't really good at anything in particular, exactly like a Shoto;
I really enjoyed this video and found it extremely helpful! I am currently creating a file in obsidian to help me break down Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. I am really bad at fighting games and still relatively new to them as a whole so I wanted to do a massive breakdown on SSBU since it is the fighting game I am the most acquainted with and enjoy the most. It will also help me understand my skillset, what I enjoy to play as, and what to look out for in other fighting games. This file is going a massive file encompassing everything that is involved with core gameplay, playstyles, strengths/weaknesses, strategy, and much more for each individual character. And your video is honestly going to be one of the biggest helps in helping me understand and break down each individual character a lot! Thank you so much for the information in this video, it was so well made! I have already found it very useful! I am also totally going to subscribe because I have seen several of your other videos breaking down similar topics and I always find them really engaging and entertaining!
Criminally underrated vid. As someone new to fighting games, the idea of characters being a ratio of multiple archetypes was very useful. I’d look at Makoto from SF3 and think “is she a zoner? Mixup? Rushdown?” But now I know it’s as simple as being a mix of that. Also very helpful when comparing characters across different games
I've always seen makoto as a rushdown + gimmick character (because of her insane stun output and how she can kill you from one grab) and her dash distance+speed that always feel like she belongs to another game. Awesome that you are playing 3s!!
"The only example of a composite character is double." *Completely forgets Honoka from DOA, whose moveset is an amalgamation of every other character's moves*
Seth is completely different from Honoka! Honoka is just a martial artist whose style is made up of everything she knows, while Seth's style is just using all kinds of attacks, from projectiles to grapples! Compo characters on average are diverse!
@@johngr1747 I mean yes but they exist in two completely different universes so that is to be expected. All I was saying is that his description of what a composite character is would also fit the Honoka and a couple of other fighting game characters
As a fan of Under Night In-Birth, I was disappointed that Waldstein, a grappler so big he takes up almost half the screen at close ranges, did not come up at all in the grappler category.
SNK AND Blazblue. Though BlaBlue at least got a Tager clip in the Grappling section. I found it hilarious that Blazblue had 2 characters that actually use mechanical dolls and he mentioned Rosalina and Luma over Carl and Relius Clover.
I think Mewtwo/Shadow Mewtwo from Pokken Tournament counts as a Composite character. They have lots of moves from other characters, especially Shadow Mewtwo.
The first few commonly established archetypes were explained well by giving concrete examples (like how Sol consists of different elements and how projectile and normal zoners differ from each other) but the further the video went on, the less information there was and your definitions became hazier. You listed too many archetypes based on elements that were common among already introduced archetypes such as defining "lots of ambiguous crossups/mixups" as a trait for rushdown but then having "mixup" as a seperate archetype. In that regard, "Shoto" should be called "all-rounder" and be defined as having a diverse moveset which then could be divided into orthodox all-rounders which have traditional movement and health/defense (eg. Ryu, Ken and Ky) and technical/peaky all-rounders which trade more options for less health because of balancing (Akuma/Gouki, Seth, Chipp). Also, Stun Dipper and Ground Viper aren't projectile invincible moves; the Japanese term tosshin-waza (突進技, meaning "rush/charge move", the most obvious example being Boxer's Dash Straight) is probably what you were looking for since it's the term for moves that travel forward for various purposes (eg. dashing in to close the distance, going through/over/under a projectile, catching a jump/backdash, acting as a frametrap in a specific distance, hitting it meaty for a frame advantage, etc). Also, "Composite" doesn't make any sense to me because the graphics of a character shouldn't matter when you judge a character by its stats, systems, and moves. "Gimmick" is an equally mysterious category and giving only one example without even (directly) explaining why didn't help either. If the name of the archetype doesn't mean anything then it has no reason to exist (hence calling Bedman an "8-way dash" character would make more sense). I actually thought you were talking about Baiken because of her guard canceling since it changes the metagame so much. In that aspect Zato is a "gimmick" too, but the puppet archetype became popular because both players and developers liked it (and Capcom's Jojo) while Baiken (and Darkstalkers/Vampire) never had the same kind of success. For some notable missing stuff, I would have definitely talked about charge, rekka and summon/secchi (設置) elements and how they play into the various archetypes. For example, Leo has traditional boom/somersault from a downback charge, but mostly uses his rekka and other specials for pressure/combos/mixups and on top of those he even has a big slow projectile useful for controlling neutral and creating okizeme in the corner (where his stance is less useful). Doing a breakdown video on character archetypes is an endless swamp because things aren't black and white and the genre has developed so much over the years, but by naming your video "Full Breakdown/Video Essay" I expected to see more in-depth stuff and less shallow jokes.
I mostly made it as a beginner guide, but I get your criticism. My goal was to just give a brief (less than 20 mins) breakdown on the most common archetypes I hear thrown around, hence why I talked about gimmick (very common buzzword) but I can definitely see where you’re coming from.
I think separating mixup from rushdown is fine. The elements I think should be mentioned are whiff punishing, punishing from block, and other counterattack related stuff
I was so confused charge characters didn't make it. Especially since it's so 2D focused. Also I always thought Composite Characters were mostly like Unknown from Tekken Tag, or Ogre from Tekken, oe Mokujin from Tekken, or Shang Tsung from MK, or Owlcadan from Soul Calibur ; a collective of multiple or all characters , usually bosses Nitpick of min also; H+he put Hworang and Zafina as examples of stance changing characters instead of Lei Wulong, the notorious stances based Tekken character.
@@uristmccheeselove1019 Dont play 3d fighters, thats why my examples for them were a bit shaky lol, I looked up stance character in tekken and got those two lmao
Good video. I think specifically showcasing one of the 3 stance characters you identified would have been useful for that section to drive how how they work
I agree with this except Celica from BlazBlue is not a puppet character, its easy to mistake since she has a giant robot partner like Carl/Relius but Minerva doesn't act independently from Celica so essentially they're fused together
Hell even Steve or Hwaorang I don't think this guy has played/plays much of Tekken He didn't mention a single Tekken character in the video which is odd considering it's one of the staples in the fighting game genre
2:34 I was not ready to see Mario and Muhammad Avdol in the same place, but that’s fighting games baby! Also it reminds me of that dream I had where Avdol was in every single SSB instead of Yoshi, but that’s beside the point.
I'd say Shadow Labrys and maybe Ken are the only ones that really fit the puppet character archetype (as described here at least). For most characters in that game you're never really controlling both the character and their persona at the same time. Their personas are just part of some of their attacks.
@Keith Pillsbury Remember that one weird guy in the right collum in the Puppeteer section? His doll (technically his Stand but just a vessel of it) is called Ebony Devil.
11:06 : Shujinko kameo MK1 and Mokujin from Tekken as well Besides, here are equivalents to everything in Mortal Kombat Shoto : Lui Kang, Kung Lao, Kitana, Sub Zero Grappler : Shao Kahn, Goro, Geras, Jax Zoner : Quan Chi, Noob Saibot, Reptile, Rain, Ermac Puppeteer : Kenshi, Johnny Cage, Noob Saibot Rushdown : Sonya, Kitana, Mileena, Nitara, Smoke, Scorpion Stance : Ashrah, Ermac Composite : Shang Tsung (transformation), Shujinko (as a kameo, and even in MK Deception)
For Mixup characters you should have put Wii Fit Trainer. When I played a lot of my gameplay was weird hitboxes and crazy soccer ball snipes no one knew existed. Even high level players had problems figuring out some things because she is an underplayed character in a roster of 80+. She is def one of the best examples of a mixup character in the history of fighting games.
I was expecting Sonic since most of his ball moves are hard to distinguish, though that's more just poor design rather than intentional similarities between specific moves
Sol BadPie? That’s a solely bad pun there. But good video though! I would like to hear more about those gimmick fighters as they vary a lot in quality and design in general. Maybe compare which ones do well despite losing a basic mechanic with ones that fail without it.
I like trying to uses the archetypes to try to classify for honor heros, it's an interesting thought experiment trying to figure out how the archetypes fit in a game that has a lot of similar mechanics but very distinct differences.
Good video Edd. We can all agree that teaching fighting games are hard. You managed to make something entertaining without compromising instruction too much.
I'd probably put PW more into the gimmick category. He technically has stance and set play aspects but his main gameplan is to use his unique gimmick of evidence grabbing to level up and get turnabout.
@@MystDawg that thing you are talking a out is called setup. I don't see a world where Phoenix Wright is not a setup character. Grabbing evidence is a setup to Turnabout Mode
@@BeakelZ That's true, but evidence grabbing is a unique mechanic that goes against the rules of the game. I typically see a set up as traps in a sense, like Byakuya in undernight who places spider webs around the stage in order to catch his opponent.
I'm surprised that Blaze Blue was only on here once and for a brief moment since most of them are very easy to define, KoF is another game I would have used since they have some good examples in their though I did not play the game often. Loved the video never less
I'll give the archetypes for BlazBlue for you: Shoto: Jin, Es, Mu (surprisingly) Grappler: Tager & Bullet Zoner: Amane, Nu, Rachel Rushdown: Ragna, Noel, Bullet (again), Terumi, Hazama, etc Stance: Kagura and Relius Puppet: Relius and Carl Mixup: Azrael (he's fucking deadly as hell), Izanami (just as, if not, more deadly), Hakumen (same as the last two) Setup: Rachel & Litchi Composite: none Gimmick: *Everyone in the fucking cast* Oh, also, quick correction: it's "BlazBlue," not Blaze Blue. But I do understand the confusion.
I would also mention the defensive, bait and punish type character. These characters might not have good approach tools, but function on reads and reactions to their opponents to look for openings and counter hits.
Hey, decent video explaining these concepts. I've been playing fighting games for a while and I see this as an overall beneficial video for newcomers especially. I have one criticism though, and it's not a major one, but something that did bother me a bit. Your examples are a bit limited; a lot of them come from one of 3 games (sometimes those games being repeated when there are other examples out there that might have helped better flesh out the variance on the concepts that can be taken depending on the game), and while good as a primer, showing off characters from say, KOF, Tekken, Under Night, BlazBlue, etc. in terms of gameplay, and going a little more in depth, would be welcomed. Other than that, keep it up.
I agree with this. I really liked the video. But, the whole time I'm like...Where is King for Grappler? Where is Voldo? How did he not use Shang Tsung? Or Kowal Khan?
![Archetypes in Tekken [4K]](/img/n.gif)
First off, let me start by thanking everyone who has liked and subscribed. I never dreamed this video would be as popular as it is, and I’m truly thankful.
Second, I want to address the most commonly asked questions about the video to help clear up a few things.
1: “Why didn’t you use (X character) as an example?!” The reason you saw a lot of Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, and Smash characters was because of two main reasons. First, popularity. This video is targeted at newer players, so I tried to pull from less obscure games so that people would understand what I was talking about. Sure, I could’ve used Carl from BlazBlue as a puppet example, but 98% of the audience wouldn’t know who he was. Second is experience. I have played tons of fighting games, but I’d say I’m only at a decent competitive level for SFV, the GGs, and maybe Skullgirls and HFTF. I don’t wanna talk about a game I only have less than 100 hours of experience in.
2: “Why isn’t (X Archetype) mentioned?!” Simple. Runtime. This video is already 15 minutes long, and I wanted to explain everything in depth while also not making an hour long video.
3: “Why not charge characters?” I plan to make a separate video on input styles in fighting games where I’ll go in depth about charge inputs, so that’s where you’ll find my take about that.
4: “Cecilia isn’t a puppet character!” Google did me dirty, asked what were puppet characters for BlazBlue and they said Cecilia and Carl. Not even a single mention of Relius (I didn’t own CF until recently)
5: “This isn’t what (X archetype) is!” Remember, every single fighting game is built differently. Put a rushdown character from Street Fighter against one from Guilty Gear and you’ll see what I mean. I tried to provide a broad definition of the mere basics a character in that category would have, but every single game functions differently and awards different tools to its characters.
6: “Why is (archetype A) seperate from (archetype B) when (archetype A) has characteristics of (Archetype B)?!” Remember: My main point was fighting game characters are a recipe. While it’s true lots of rushdown characters have mixup potential, they’re both seperate ingredients that come together to create the character you love. Chocolate chip cookies don’t come with chocolate in the dough, you gotta mix them together to make the final product.
Again, thanks so much for all the support, and if you still have any questions, feel free to ask away, I try to reply to as many (non-stupid) comments as I can!
Hi hope everyone has a great day or night
I know it’s just a mix of the mentioned archetypes but I’m surprised you didn’t mention the trapper archetype because you see it a lot in fighting games now a days. It’s a kind of mix of both the zoner and set play archetype that you mentioned. Naoto from Persona 4 arena, Erin Black for mortal combat, Chris Redfield for marvel vs capcom and Snake for Smash Bros come to mind in my opinion. They tend to have the tools to give themselves space from the zoner archetype and or big pools of health to help them set up traps, normally have big damage output and set up traps like the set play archetype to extend, start up or finish combos with massive damage.
I'd argue Tekken and the Marvel vs Capcon series and even Mortal Kombat are more popular than Guilty Gear, and you didn't use examples from them at all. They have extremely good examples for gimmick characters and stance characters, though it might just be because you've played Guilty Gear more so there's a distinct bias towards it.
I disagree with lots of the sentiments in this post.
1. _Regarding popularity:_ I can somewhat see this argument with "simpler" arcetypes as Shoto or Rushdown, but is there really any character that is on the same level asn Carl for a Puppeteer?
You still list three characters, making one of them "obscure" shouldn't really be a problem when it is a _really good_ example. (really sad to learn that BB is obscure, but it is probably true)
Furthermore, if this really is for newbies, I don't think you are doing the fighting game community a service by only mentioning 4 games. Showing the wide diversity of games in this genre surely is going to spark more interest.
_Regarding experience:_ How much expereince do you need to know that Tager is a Grappler? That Bridget is a set-up/trapper? If you really value experience so much, you should probably reach out to fellows in the community to get more input on the topic.
2. I think your video is stuck somewhere in between for-newbies and for-community-members. To make it more newbie-friendly it should probably be less than 10 minutes and you should probably list the characteristics of the types with big text at the end of each segment to summarize.
The way you started each segment with gameplay and not writing out the type beforehand, screams "you know this character, so which category is s/he?" and only seems appropriate in a video targeted at people well-versed in fighting games.
6. You started the video with that excellent cake recipe analogy, but it was forgotten for the rest of the video, which is why maybe some viewers also forgot that.
When you presented your example characters for each type, you should probably have written the recipe under each picture.
If you did, I _would buy_ your argument of experience for only showing characters of four games, as _that_ surely is something only one with experience can do.
I really liked how you for example during the Shoto explanation showed many different characters doing their similar moves, that was really a good way to convey their simililarities. You should've probably included similar clips in all explanations.
Congratulations on making your first hit video!
I hope that you could take the critique that I, and certainly more so, other more experienced people have given. (I'm just a guy who is total scrub in BB after playing on off for 10 years so...)
I'm sure you have other videos planned, but I think you should after reading up and discussing the topic with the community, you should release a updated version of this video.
Best regards and best of luck!
Cecilia, lul. Celica, not Cecilia. BlazBlue had plenty of audience recognition my dude, this reeks of YOU simply not recognizing it :x
“Mario is a Shoto”. That was not something I expected to hear today but shit, I guess so
Homie made me activate brain cells with that one. Lmao
I mean, he technically fits all of the requirements
I wasn't expecting Avdol to be called a Shoto
On the other hand, Luigi (at least modern Luigi, i.e. Sm4sh and SmUsh) is more of a Grappler with his miserable range on most moves, meh movement and deadly-explosive punishes.
@@goldenhydreigon4727 me neither
But tbh, the other one who could count as a shoto would be Jotaro but he is more of a close range shoto
This made me realize Zelda in Melee was supposed to be a stance character
But everyone only uses Sheik
Well, they tried
They made it work with Pokemon Trainer, tho.
@@pabscoello yeah
After being divided in Sm4sh though Zelda is a Zoner now and Sheik a Rushdown
If the transformation was faster and Zelda herself not hilariously trash as a character, you probably would have seen a lot of stance dancing mixups that would be a lot of fun to use.
@@Dliciousization such wasted potential
At begginer level, everyone is a rushdown character, lol
Or a zoner who try to fire everything from a distance (and fail).
I play Kirby in smash but I have perfected my own playstyle with him I barelly transform I rarely ever use his succ(insert sound echo hear) ability I grab a lot and throw a lot and when Items spawn I grab one and beging my second stage I throw what ever Item I picked(it's medium weight for this purpose too light will almost float in he same place and too heavy will land in front of your feet) at the oponent from one side to the other and rush down to grab the item so I can grab it while the oponent is staggered and throw it again against the enemy before the throw that makes the item disapear I use it normaly.
@@Colorless_Reaper That's more so casual smash. When items are off, Kirby tends to struggle a lot more. I wouldn't really call him shit in Ultimate (that's more so Melee and Smash 4, and characters in Ultimate don't really fall below mid-tier aside from a select few characters), but he's definitely a mid tier character in terms of the competitive landscape.
Big Unga
@@Colorless_Reaper “items”
Ew.
Me, who has never played any fighting game seriously: i like your funny words magic man
That’s me and I play fighting games a lot
Nice clone high reference
Hearing a fighting game fan use the 56845th terminology: "mmm, interesting"
To a rushdown player, everything else is a gimmick.
Grappler approaches.
This mixes very well with the comment that says that at beginner level everyones a rushdown main
When a rushdown main and a grappler main meet each other, the one with the lower IQ wins
@@rickberny1424 lmao a hotdog eating contest with glue sticks instead of hotdogs.
@@WarningStrangerDanger
I prefer crayons, but I respect your choice.
Kakyoin: the guy who forgot to do puppet and just decided to do rushdown
*and zoner
Understandable, since everyone started to deflect the Emerald Splash.
he’s honestly good at both and pretty op since he has good matchups the only thing better is petshop but fuck petshop
Dio's Zawarudo is OP :'v
It’s really not
I applied to Harvard as a high school drop out and they said "lmao what" and then I picked Zato=1 on character select screen and they made me the dean of students
Wait has it always been an equal sign
@@eddventure6214 yes
Then they kicked you out when a Venom main enters, right?
@@kingofthemoon3063 Venom is easyyyyyy
@@bashedayo6034 You would say that, you're a Zato=1 player
Fighting game jargon not explained in-video (long message warning btw):
2:18
Footsies - well-spaced movement. Being good at footsies means knowing when to approach, when to retreat, and where you and your opponent want to be relative to each other
Midrange Game* - a game state in which players are a medium distance from each other, far enough to avoid most attacks but close enough that either could run in and attack if they saw an opening
Fireball Game* - similar to above, a game state in which either player could hit the other with a projectile and must be ready to avoid it
Coverage - the ability for a character to counter multiple different ways the opponent could approach
2:39
Reversal - a move that allows a character to get out of a disadvantageous state (such as the middle of being comboed) and avoid damage or death if used properly, but weakens them even further if misused
Anti-Air - a move that counters approaches or attacks from above
Normals/Buttons - basic attacks (usually with punch & kick or light & heavy variations)
3:34
Okizeme/Wakeup Game - idfk man
Mix-up - alternate methods of approaching, attacking, or comboing that your opponent might be unprepared for
7:03
Cross-up - a method of getting behind your opponent
Pressure - using many, often varied, attacks to either overwhelm a defending opponent or force them to try and escape, counterattack, or take all the hits you're dishing out
Matchup - how well or poor you'd expect one character to fare against another based on their archetypes, moves, stats, and other traits assuming both players are of roughly equal skill
13:50
Knockdown* - there are multiple ways to define this but generally, it's a player state in which you're unable to attack for a certain amount of time, allowing the opponent to do something that's normally too risky
Neutral - a game state in which neither players have an advantage and both are trying to gain one over the opponent through positioning, footsies, and safe (low-risk) moves
Snowball - not specific to fighting games, but it means furthering an advantage over your opponent
* - things I'm not certain on but have a decent feel for and figured I could still reasonably explain. Correct me if I'm wrong in the replies
As someone who likes fighting games casually but isn't super hardcore into the FGC scene I've been trying to figure out what okizeme/wakeup game is for good minute too lol. I know wakeup refers to getting up after being knocked down but in this case would it be an advantage at recovering from being knocked down or being able to fuck with others as they're recovering? Oh well, still picked up a lot of other neat little facts here though.
@@ozairchishti1264 Okizeme is effectively wakeup pressure. Millia Rage in Guilty Gear Strive, for example, has *RIDICULOUS* levels of Okizeme with her Tandem Top projectile. This makes it so that she wants to cause a hard knockdown, to put that projectile on you that you HAVE to block on wakeup and force a 2-way mixup (High/low or left/right) that will just snowball into another Okizeme situation if you guess wrong.
Okizeme roughly just means advantage from knockdown, and the following pressure
In it’s basic form, it’s a meaty(attack that hits on its late frames), but many characters in many games have different forms oki
For instance, in DBFZ, after using her LV3, Android 21 has +18 frames, and she can only get a safejump j.H or 2M as her oki, making it relatively poor
But for Vegito’s LV3, he has the option to vanish, and then go for an ambiguous cross-up/sameside mix, dragon rush, meaties, basically anything he wants (very good oki)
And then there was GTku in season 2 with his balls-ridiculous +100 spirit bomb oki mixup game what the heck even was that
Okizeme is basically what happens when one character is knocked to the ground: one person tries to get back up, while the other applies pressure.
@@senounatsuru6453 Tl:Dr, "I SAID STAY DOWN."
i find it funny that ryu from smash bros technically counts as a gimmick character
He kinda counts as a gimmick-grappler imo
- Gimmick because he does play a different game
- Grappler because of his ridiculously low range, coupled with his below average speed, make it difficult to approach for him, but due to his combo potential make him extremely threatening once he does get in
Steve.
He is *the* gimmick character.
Ryu is a shoto in his own game and a gimmick in another game. Kind of ironic.
Smash Bros is largely gimmick characters.
@@maxmucci3170 He's also a mid-range zoner with his Hadouken setups.
I feel like any discussion of gimmick characters must acknowledge the supremacy of Phoenix Wright.
He is so OP, tho. Gotta love his turnabout mode
Nah if you're talking about that game, the most blatant and potent example would be dark Phoenix. Typically the only thing she's used for is her gimmick and it doesn't require any active setup unlike... The other gimmick Phoenix in the same game.
@@CtrlAltRetreat I would say that Phoenix Wright is a ‘gimmick character’ because all if not most of his moves are gimmicky and unpredictable.
I would say that Dark Phoenix has a ‘gimmick comeback mechanic’ but Dark Phoenix is not a gimmick character. There is nothing gimmicky about her moves overall when compared to the rest of her cast but there sure is something very, very gimmicky about her X-Factor... She becomes a different character once that becomes activated.
@Michael Powell Oh he’s one of the Gods when it comes to gimmick characters... But all praises are due 🙏🏾
That’s the Gawwwd!!!
This guy never brings up Marvel
hey there, i’m a college student writing a formal paper breaking down the logic of fighting games. i’m allowed to use 2 non academic sources and i chose this video as one of mine. i gotta say this video is rlly well made and helped me a lot during this paper.
How'd the paper go
We need update
@@enigmat05 He passed away
@@Bullschromp oh
@@bryannaing6316 got a 95 on it my professor liked it a lot
13:20
Steve (from smash) is definitely a gimmick character that uses his tools to zone. His mining mechanic changes based on the material of the fricking stage, even stages in a “normal” variant (used to play good looking stages or stages with good music while still being competitive), can change his game play a fair amount. If anyone wants further info, reply and I’ll edit the comment.
Its funny, I don't really play fighters but I thought he would be a set up character? (of course they can have characteristics of several archetypes)
@@blightyfrogs sorry, I stupidly didnt mention steve is from smash, hope i didnt confuse you.
Also, huge explanation inbound, buckle up.
If you already knew, well, not all zoners are equal. He does have a good ledge trap that could theoretically give Snake a run for his money, but his constant requirement of needing resources combined with his arguably superior method of building walls causes the steve community to agree Steve is a more textbook zoner that, quite literally, walls you out. Plus, even if Steve never needed to mine, his ledge setups are harder to preform than snake, making a mistake could cause steve to lose stage control or even end up in disadvantage. It’s sometimes better for him to do more normal ledge trapping to reduce resource usage and risk, plus it makes it a bit more likely he’ll land an uptilt or jab to preform his combos. When using blocks in neutral, he can mine for materials while his opponent tries to break through his defense. Although counter play to steve is a bit awkward, it’s still pretty simple most of the time. Assuming Steve has a 3 block tall wall (which isn’t always gonna happen, sometimes a single block is good enough), you can either use long ranged attacks to safely destroy them, try to use disjoints specifically to hit steve (Bemonts and Byleth are pretty good), or jump over (most common.) Counter-play to this is Steve simply builds or punishes faster than the opponent can when they break the blocks, Steve baits the disjoints by sheilding and punishing with dash attack, fair or bair, and Steve can easily punish jump with his disjointed and extended upsmash.
Of course, opponents can bait these out, and at that point it’s essentially rock-paper-scissors. If Steve decides to try a different wall, for example, 2 block tall with the bottom block not placed, Steve can run through and suprise the opponent (only a block on the ground can stop a running opponent), use side b as either a burst option or a projectile (If he rides it it’s a strong attack, if he exits instantly it’s a projectile), or bait opponents that know they can run through so he can land a combo starter.
Anyways, im done, if you need more info, lemme know
Good point
Actually he's a bitch ass character
Almost everyone from Smash, because this is SMASH! The crossover game!
I laughed at "Everyone from DBFZ is rush down." It's both true and false at the same time, so I can't blame him.
Yeah they are rushdown + whatever the secondary fighting style is
Broly is a Grappler and a Rushdown with proyectiles.
This combination is good in DBFZ but if this exist in another game like Street Fighter it will be totally Broken.
As somebody who's played DBFZ, it's honestly less like everybody is rushdown and more, the only way to win is to play rushdown.
@@theamericanbrotherofmightg3734 Broly is borderline broken in DBFZ lol
I think due to a combination of the mechanics of the game and just how each characters movesets are, every character is a combination of Rushdown and something else. For example Beerus has Zoning and Setplay elements, The Brolys and 18 are Pseudo-grapplers, UI Goku is a counter character, etc. But all of them are still primarily Rushdown in their gameplan. (i.e. they want to get close and pressure until you guess wrong on a mix up)
Mechanics like the super dash make it easy and effective to just play as unga bunga as possible, and when you factor in that every character has 4 way mix ups in any given block string, it’s kind of hard to not have a rushdown meta.
@@holdenkimura5034 I'm saying that mechanics like superdash, dragonrush from 5L, IAD mix-ups, assists, etc, all these universal mechanics and then a lack of immensely strong universal defense options other than blocking, reflect, guard cancel, and spark (three of these being able to be punished harshly if done recklessly)... These all lead to universally everyone being able to play rushdown, and not only that, but the game entirely favouring the rushdown gameplan with how heavily you can pressure somebody in the corner with almost any character when you play right.
It's because of those reasons I feel like less it's a unique character trait to call everyone in DBFZ "Rushdown" and more the game itself is Rushdown, with every character then having types that build off that system.
TL;DR, I don't see classifying characters as Rushdown in DBFZ, unless they clearly are, as really being a great way to classify them as it isn't unique to the character, it's just how the game itself is made in a Rushdown style.
This is the first time I've heard of Mario being called a Shoto, but it makes perfect sense.
“Honest normals”
@@Snowballsage _Up-tilt_
...in smash 4. Up tilt really got nuked in ultimate, probably a bit too much honestly.
@@tuckaris5499 perhaps, but Mario is still a VERY good character in Ultimate.
@@AZSprocket Yeah a character shouln't be good because one move, and Mario is the embodiment of an all-rounder.
"Kirby as a Composite"
Shows 167 Kirby unique Up-tilts
“And a mix-up character is...” everyone in MKX
@Jason Same, I love the mixups
and that's why MKX is the greatest
It’s the basis of MK period !
@@smokesenju3112 high, low, high, low, high high, low, high, low low throw.
50/50s for days.
“The only real example of a composite character is...”
*shows not Shang Tsung*
this guy gets it
The disrespect man... 😔
Mokujin fron Tekken was my guess
or chameleon
I’m so glad someone else saw it.
2:10 Shoto
3:00 Grappler
4:14 Zoner
6:08 Rushdown
7:34 Puppet
8:58 Stance
10:08 Composite
11:16 Mixup
12:20 Gimick
13:28 Setplay
Thank you for this. It wouldn't kill the guy who made the video to leave timestamps on his description or PIN you comment. It's like he wants everyone to watch his video from beginning to end. I know, no duh.
@@christhechilled Maybe that's because this comment came out 6 months after the video did??
@@claraparker4807 You’re acting like UA-camrs don’t put time stamps in before they upload the video.
@SANS_YT because i said so
Technically all tekken is all stance characters
The general vibe I got from this video is that I need to play guilty gear.
Play guilty gear and main Potemkin
monkey sol bad guy, anji and leo says:
YES
refined testament want to know if you will take a cup of tea
and potemkin just eat glue
main the lord and savior ROBO-KY
@@Moeru_Gatsuand happy chaos will drink his gun ( he felt like it)
Yeah now you have strive instead of xrd PLAY IT NOW
"everyone from dragon ball fighterz"
Freeza: "Am I a joke to you"
Everyone knowing Frieza's place on the tier list: Yes
He does that shit too, you wanna use discs to stay plus and get in, he has good stagger pressure inside but his mix is weak af. Source: am one of a dozen Frieza players in the world.
@@goldenhydreigon4727 Frieza, at least now, is a B tier, being conservative, and is probably an A or S tier, probably high A.
@@Sir_Isaac_Newton_ Literally not true, the only thing Frieza has is damage and loops, which is only available in Golden Form as well as his Golden Form only being usable ONCE a match.
@@goldenhydreigon4727 tiers dont matter, a good player is a good player
I swear this video was made just for that “sol bad pie” joke
And what of it? :D
he didn't include joke characters because they require an entirely separate video to explain whatever hellish mess they are.
SHINGO KICKU!
"GADOOOUUKEEEEN 😭"
I mean, joke characters are just bad versions of other archetypes (assuming they're actually bad and not just goofy.) Dan is just a Shit Shoto
Ken, Roll(MVC),Servbot, Pirhana Plant(until....)
Did goose Howard and Akuma in tekken 7 count as joke character
Leo being the face of rushdown hits the unga bunga on my brain
"the less flavoring, unga bunga-" god bless the unga, for not even god itself may stop it.
Flavoring?
Yep and say is say I will unga and most certainly bunga
flattering
"shotos have... a good health pool"
*shows Akuma
i count 2 types of pupet characters, we see quite a lot of each and they rarely cross, puppet characters and projectile puppeteers?... im ignoring assist characters but anyways, puppet chara control 2 characters (the classic ones like Zato, and those BB characters) where progectile pupeteers command a small projectile separately, like Menat (SF) or Ms Fortune (SG) or Bridget (GG)
😂🤣😂
Uh
Glass cannon?
I mean, he's no regular shoto.
@@ultralowspekken maybe he isnt as much a glass cannon in all games, im more familiar with third strike and a few others
I just recalled i also separate both shoto and grappler archetypes into 2 each, game shoto, basic character with tools fitting for the game, if a gimmic is involved, its simple enough to be easy to pick up, still can be powerfull if mastered (ragna from blazblue, kazuya from tekken, and fillia from SG shows how diferent it can be from ryu) and classic shoto with the classic tools for the job, projectile, tatsu, shortu, eich work for classic situations but in some games these situations arent what makes the game, becoming familiar to outsiders but a gimmic fighter for the general cast (akuma on Tekken 7, master roshi from dbfz, or in other genres, soldier76 from overwatch or Victor from Paladins)
>Russian
>Big
>Loud
>Broken English
>Strong
Shows Zaria and Zangief, you sure you are not forgetting someone? Maybe someone that can outsmart bullet?
i mean, zarya and zangief fit that perfectly, except zarya doesnt really speak in broken english
Perhaps someone that has a degree in Russian literature?
Quite possibly a man with a huge “fuck off” gun?
Or perhaps someone who loves sandwiches very much?
See, he goes without mention ‘cause he’s just that famous.
Great video! While the definitions aren't concrete, you've got this literally down to a science (a way to understand just about any character and/or mechanics.)
Beyond that, knowing what these terms mean has cleared up a few old conversations- thanks!
Jojo: a game where everyone is a puppet character
Jojo is interesting in that everyone kind of does it but there's one true puppet character who is kind of the father of the archetype in all games, and that's Devo. He really embodies the idea to the max since not a single one of his special moves is actually performed by him, they're all done by the doll instead.
Still Wish we got a JoJo game where you do something other than fight and Kill one another non stop.
A JoJo RPG (That gets rid of the annoying as Sin Turn Based Menu Dog vomit) would be most appreciated.
@Xander Vasquez they probably haven't played the game, just watched the anime which they learnt about from PewDiePie
There's literally character with three stances in HFTF. it's very odd.
@@SpeedKing.. have you forgotten tandem mode? And remote mode? Surprisingly there are only actually ten characters capable of tandem attack as there are quite a few passive stand users but even then that's just under than half of the cast having access to puppet character moves, although I can see what you mean if you say that their whole kit isn't based around being a puppet character. Otherwise if you simply forgot or didn't know about remote stand mode and tandem attack then it's kind of hypocritical that you are saying that nimaiiikun doesn't understand the game systems.
I was super surprised King from the tekken series wasnt in the grappler examples. He's usually the first person I think of when I think of throws in fighting games. Fantastic video!
Yeah, I was never a huge Tekken fan, but I was sure to include him on the bars to the side!
necrid from soul calibur would have been a good addition to the composit character list as well
Tekken really breaks the rules for his categories though. Throws work different too so which yeah king is 100% a grappler, he isn't what this video was referring to. I mean king has a running throw and his capital punishment gives you an uninteruptable giant swing on block so he has no difficulty getting in really
Also May Lee from King Of Fighters
@@TyRiders2 also Jhun. 3 damn stances
The one grappler that always comes into my mind is Goro Daimon
I never thought of Mario as a Shoto and I kinda hate the thought even though its technically perfectly accurate
I feel like every main character in a fighting game is a shoto
@@magillagorilla57 Jotaro?
@@floofbirb4436 never played any of the Jojo games, so maybe not him. Idk
@@magillagorilla57 so basically, jotaro always plays as a glass cannon rushdown.
@@floofbirb4436 oh, interesting
This’ll be helpful for my theoretical reworking of the cast of the Clayfighter series. Thanks for making this.
This video: Mario is a shoto
Also Mario: *Kills characters off of one combo* from a grab
This video: *Rushdowns have no good projectiles*
Also video: *shows Fox as an example*
@@goldenhydreigon4727
Lasers aren’t good projectiles, in Ultimate
In Melee they’re really good
Well lasers help reset foxs damage so it helps with something
@@goldenhydreigon4727 He did say most area mix of different archetypes. He thene described the quintessence of the archetype, but few characters will be purely one or another, so obviously some of the examples won't be perfect.
@@goldenhydreigon4727 Fox lasers suck ass since 2008
Just got this in my recommendations, commenting to provide that sweet sweet algorithm juice
My hero
Kenshiro
@@G0D777 i peeped that too
@@megaman5479 I see a man of hokuto as well👊
Based.
this is so helpful to me as an artist!! I'm going to start designing fighting game characters for a personal project soon and I love having this as a resource
As a Soul Calibur player, I was waiting for even a single example from the series and was mildly surprised when Necrid from Soul Calibur 2 wasn't mentioned for a composite character since it's a perfect example.
Setplay architype:
Exist
Dan Fornase when making Rivals:
It's showtime
Dan is the goat
Can't wait to see this guy grow.
When he earns enough for a new mic off this video hes gonna tripple his sub count in a week dude.
Well UA-cam made some announcements today about how they will monetize videos... So it'll be an uphill battle for this guy.
That’s what she said.
@@SunChipss that's what i was gonna say lol
Agreed
I kept waiting for a KoF character to show up at some point, I guess the series is no longer popular, I feel old now.
KOF is niche in the USA. Capcom vs. SNK is about the closest to it being popular there.
@@NukeA6 oh, that explains it. The series was very popular in Latin America back during the late 90's and early 2000's.
No kof then i wont watch i guess
Best fighting game by far.
Well
Kof requires actual skill to Play
So not many touch it🤷
I’d like to make the case that trapper is an archetype in and of itself.
While “mixup” does somewhat cover the concept of a trapper character, I think the identity of trapper is distinct enough for it to stand out on its own for a few reasons:
Mixup characters tend to be focused on making you make guesses as to what you’re doing next, but don’t necessarily push to limit options on what you *can* do to respond. Basically, if I’m subject to mixup a, and I have response a, b, or c, those responses are roughly the same for my opponent’s mixup b-although the correct response is different.
I think the trapper archetype often has crossover with the mixup archetype, as they both want to force the opponent to make reads-however, I think trapper emphasizes the *removal* of options from an opponent’s kit, while also the eating a very specific and lethal “trap” for the opponent to fall into. A trapper might subject an opponent to their mixup a, where the opponent can respond with a b or c, but their mixup b can only be responded to with a or b. Basically, the idea of limiting options.
I can only really argue that this archetype exists in smash ultimate, based on my experiences. An example of what I would consider to be a trapper would be someone like Pac-Man or Robin.
Trappers typically have strong normals, a high variance projectile, a technical tool, and moderate to low end kill power outside of their *trapping* opportunities.
Example: Pac-Man has several different projectiles that change as you charge the ability. Each projectile plays a roll, but the projectiles alone are too slow to be used consistently as your primary neutral game. Instead, the projectiles are used to force opponents into bad situations or create mixups where you can secure an early kill, and these mixups are made into traps through competent use of your hydrant. The key difference between a trapper and a mixup character is that the trapper archetype is oriented around setting a trap for the opponent to fall into, while the mixup character uses those mixups more directly and offensively.
Basically, trapper is setup+mixup with a little bit of zoning mixed in, I feel.
Trapper IS a recognized fighting game character archetype, usually seen as a specific type of zoner, but it's specific to platform fighters (such as Super Smash Brothers). This is mostly because the trapper's playstyle is stage control via limiting an opponent's mobility, something that is only reasonable with larger stages that have a variety of movement options.
Pac-Man definitely counts as a trapper, Robin not so much, but the best, most archetypal example is Solid Snake. Isabelle, Villager, and (to a lesser extent) Steve are also trappers. All of them are very stage-positioning heavy characters - they have major, gameplay-defining projectiles with the limitation that they're either affixed to a set spot on the ground or are only effective at very specific angles + distances. The goal becomes to get your opponent into the specific space you need them to be. THAT is considered the most crucial aspect of the archetype.
@@TheStarsTwilight I think Piranha Plant also counts as a trapper, since most of that character's game plan revolves around having poison cloud or ptooie out to pressure opponents, as well as having some pretty strong normals.
@@TheStarsTwilight King Dedede and maybe Ness would work well in this role as well.
Another good example of a trapper is Cagliostro from GBVS, actually. Her whole gameplay goes around her mehen traps and her different ways to force her opponents into them to start her combos with her strong normals or charge her rock from afar and use her zoning tools, making her incredibly annoying to deal with if you know how to play her.
You mean like joker or Rambo from mk
So, basically everyone in any netherrealm game is a mixup character.
I thought they were all zoners.
@@kevingriffith6011 that's injustice 2.
Lmao they're all premiere zoners
Everybody is a zoner.
Especially in injustice gods among us
How could Shang Tsung not be mentioned as a composite character? He literally takes the soul of the characters he defeats.
And was probably the first one ever made as well
There's a lot of mortal kombat character he could've mentioned for several of the categories but didn't.
Well he was atleast on display around the border at 10:09
Until MK11 I'd say Shang was more of a stance character since he completely switches into those movesets rather than using multiple people's moves at once. However he didn't mention the OG composite character; Ogre/True Ogre.
@@General_Weebus a stance/composite character I love this mix as its very versatile but it can be hard since you have to beat tat the right moment and time to take abilities and do damage they way you should
And then Shulk just runs in and says *“I’LL TAKE YOUR ENTIRE STOCK”*
Changing to shield mid-combo go *BRRRRRRRR*
Composite character
he is THE stance character of smash
(well, I guess him and PKMN Trainer)
And, Pyra/Mythra too now I guess??????
4:12 examples of grapplers... music from Hugo 3rd strike in the background. Love it
I wanted to write a story based off fighting games and I needed to understand its archetypes. Thank you so much
@Groisu oh, I ended up having so many ideas that I had to put it aside because I am about to graduate. Thank you for the interest though
@@NIDELLANEUM we'll be here when you come back soldier.
@@NIDELLANEUM alright how is it now can you show me?
"This guy is burly, what do we do?"
"I know! Let's camp him out!"
i'll be here when you're ready dude
After watching this I realise Beowulf from Skullgirls isn't just a grappler, but also a rushdown. He has a lot of options once he grabs you and Aa special that let's him do these one after another, while he also has moves to close the distance and then deal some serious damage.
"Examples of a Set-Up Character would be-"
*Doesn't include Phoenix Wright from UMvC3*
He is a Set-up and Gimmick character with Stance
@@dantemzsz True. He requires set-up through gimmicks to change his stance(s)...
I recon he's not a mvc3 player as there are none in his examples.
That guy! It's wierd he even is there since he's just a lawyer!
He's a power up/stance character. he collects evidence to power up and can get rid of bad evidence with a stance super, definitely a marvel only type character since he's very weak up until the very moment he powers up, then he wishes you a merry Christmas and hits you with the Fullscreen super.
Fun Fact!
The first ever Puppet Character is Devo from JoJo's Bizzare Adventure: Heritage For the Future.
Also, Guile was inspired from both Polnareff and Stroheim.
That's why Pol is a charge character
Personally I would probably have split gimmick into pure gimmicks and resource characters as their own archetypes. I would also totally put Dizzy instead of Answer as an example of setplay lmao.
Dizzy is also kinda special, She sets up her gameplay only for next few seconds, actually all she needs is right fish, and position, dunno about Xrd one tho, haven't played her/against her very often.
That's why Answer was used as an example and not said to be the only setplay character in Xrd.
Dizzy is a zoner.
I think Ms. Fortune categorizes more as a rushdown character than an puppet one since all her tools are made go get in into the enemy's defenses.
the head only helps with that processes of keeping the enemy at bay and extending combos, not something you will rely to much as damage dealing method like other puppet characters
Am Ms. Fortune main, can confirm. Her pressure just with her normals and juggling potential is crazy good. And the head as a bowling/soccer ball is, when used well, great as an alternative opener to the opponent's defenses, as they not only have to focus on you, but your head bouncing around, too! As per hitbox rules, leaving it out makes for a secondary target, as the head can be knocked around at YOU if the opponent knows what's going on.
@Keith Pillsbury
No blazblue entries at all.
She a bit of both, but I think his bigger argument here is that each character is different percentages of each archetype to make them unique, the same way Leo is rush down & stance
My Friend has recently discovered they have some natural talent with Ms. fortune and let me tell you... my Big Band parry game HAD to be on point or else I was not going to get to play my turn. The pressure from his Fortune was insane.
Facts
Okay so from what I learned:
-Shotos are the basic yet effective guys.
-Grapplers are (usually) big and will suplex you.
-Zoners like to remain far away from their opponents & hit them from afar.
-Rushdowns like to come close and punch you in the face.
-Puppets are like playing 2 characters at once.
-Stances are 2-in-1 archetype combo.
-Composites are a mix of every character.
-Mixups are meant to confuse the opponent in the match.
-Gimmicks play by their own rules because fuck the rules.
-Setplays have to setup everything before they can be considered a threat.
For real tho, I'm glad this video exists. I only know the bare minimum when it comes to character fighting archetypes & this video really helped me learn more about the other character archetypes I didn't know about.
Pretty much, although I’d say for setplay it’s more that the looming threat of letting them get set up is what defines the match.
Nice username btw lmao
thank you very much for the summary but that pfp got me wishing i didnt know what kirby superstar was
Most charters added after brawl for smash bros are gimmick characters in a sense
One more thing, charge characters are characters that have to charge their specials before they can use them(SF guile), or charge them to make them better(SG squigly)
@@eddventure6214 would Hero in Smash be considered a “gimmick” character considering the command selection?
"Stance characters"
* shows everyone from Tekken *
Always wondered if Mokujin counted as a composite character or just was made as a "Random bullshit go!" character
@@bigdog421 Not exactly! Compo characters are inherently diverse! See Seth from SF4.
@@johngr1747 then what exactly would mokujin classify as?
@@bigdog421 Any archetype that fits to the character he's mimicking! If he's mimicking Marduk he's a grappler, if he's mimicking Ling Xiayou he's stance and so on.
@@johngr1747 fair enough, so i guess just make a mimic category?
If only there was like... a wiki that broke down every/most every fighting game character like this. That would be a great study asset.
Would Riptor and Saberwulf from killer insinct be considered rushdown? and would Liu Kang from MK be considered shoto?
I know this is an old comment but most MK characters are Shotos, having good all-around options, one or more projectiles or teleport-based attacks, and benefit from different movement options
@@atomicwheeze8756 old but at least someone responded! thanks for that. I've always considered Scorpion to be a rushdown-shoto, as most of his combos, especially in 9/10 benefit from rush down playstyle, and keeping pressure on others.
@@navybr0wnie Oh yeah 100%, especially with strong mix-ups in the form of teleport, aerial teleport, and takedown, at least as of MKX. His spear also gives him a very powerful ranged option that covers near full-screen and punishes massively if not blocked. If his normals were better he’d be an absolute beast!
@@atomicwheeze8756 I know in MK11, if you had demon dash, and the spear extended skills you could get some solid hits in, I think i've gotten at least 12 hit kombo from it, douible down with a perfect meter burned TP, into overhead, and you could justr juggle the hell out of someone.
Always enjoyued scorpions overheads ngl.
@@atomicwheeze8756I’ve never played/watched a lot of mortal combat but do you think that the fact everyone is shoto-esque sort of changed the criteria?
Like if most characters have shoto aspects, the one who benefits the most from getting in would become the rushdown character within the game. Like if you transported them into street fighter they’d all be shotos, but within the context of their game the small differences define their archetype rather than the big ones?
I love how this can be applied to Devil May Cry characters too. From DMC4SE and DMC5SE:
Nero: is a clear Grappler type, with a Shoto sprinkle in it, that grapples enemies with his Devil Bringer and Buster moves to deal massive damage.
Dante: the strongest Stance character there is, with his multiple Styles, each absurdly strong at what it does.
Vergil: Easily a Rushdown character that focuses on absurd speed and fast moves;
V: Puppet character that controls up to 3 characters at once, weak physically, but with very strong attacks from his summons.
Lady: is a clear Zoner that keeps enemies at a distance with firearms;
Trish: has a mix of everything and isn't really good at anything in particular, exactly like a Shoto;
Now I want a DMC FG
The games even have motion inputs lmfao
DMC fighting game, when??
Nero is a shoto. He only has one grapple button.
What type of Character is Dante in Mvc3 then? homie has like 50 special moves.
Me, a non fighting game player there's: grapplers , zoners and the others.
Hangin' with the brothers, you'll be hooked on the brothers
I showed my 4 daughters that LOVE Tekken this and now they kick my ass every time LOL.Thank you so much!
lmao
Dang that's tough 😂 good to see a family playing games together though 👏
@@UltimateTS64 he’s joking lmao
@@eddventure6214 oof, i actually believed it T_T
@@eddventure6214 oof, i actually believed it T_T
I really enjoyed this video and found it extremely helpful!
I am currently creating a file in obsidian to help me break down Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. I am really bad at fighting games and still relatively new to them as a whole so I wanted to do a massive breakdown on SSBU since it is the fighting game I am the most acquainted with and enjoy the most. It will also help me understand my skillset, what I enjoy to play as, and what to look out for in other fighting games. This file is going a massive file encompassing everything that is involved with core gameplay, playstyles, strengths/weaknesses, strategy, and much more for each individual character. And your video is honestly going to be one of the biggest helps in helping me understand and break down each individual character a lot!
Thank you so much for the information in this video, it was so well made! I have already found it very useful! I am also totally going to subscribe because I have seen several of your other videos breaking down similar topics and I always find them really engaging and entertaining!
"Everyone in FighterZ is a rushdown char"
Android 16 grappling the air rn
Criminally underrated vid. As someone new to fighting games, the idea of characters being a ratio of multiple archetypes was very useful. I’d look at Makoto from SF3 and think “is she a zoner? Mixup? Rushdown?” But now I know it’s as simple as being a mix of that. Also very helpful when comparing characters across different games
I don't really see the zoner part in Makoto. I would say rushdown and mixup with just a zest of grappler
makoto is gimmick touch of stun :^)
I've always seen makoto as a rushdown + gimmick character (because of her insane stun output and how she can kill you from one grab) and her dash distance+speed that always feel like she belongs to another game. Awesome that you are playing 3s!!
The TMNT in Injustice 2 should've been designed this way:
Leonardo = rushdown
Donatello = zoner
Raphael = grappler
Michelangelo = mix-up
Splinter = all-rounder
Casey Jones = stance (different sports)
FACTS!
the moment you said "or the less flattering, UNGA BUNGA playstyle" I WENT "YEAHHHHH LETS GOOO THATS ME"
"The only example of a composite character is double." *Completely forgets Honoka from DOA, whose moveset is an amalgamation of every other character's moves*
Seth is completely different from Honoka! Honoka is just a martial artist whose style is made up of everything she knows, while Seth's style is just using all kinds of attacks, from projectiles to grapples! Compo characters on average are diverse!
@@johngr1747 I mean yes but they exist in two completely different universes so that is to be expected. All I was saying is that his description of what a composite character is would also fit the Honoka and a couple of other fighting game characters
i think this list is evidently exclusive to 2D fighting games, 3D fighting games like DOA or Tekken operate completely differently.
*And Piranha Plant in smash bros*
"The only notable example of a composite character would be Double from Skullgirls."
Shang Tsung: "Am I a joke to you?"
Shang Tsung physically changes into other characters, not a character with all their moves *at once*
Mokujin from Tekken also is a good example
Ogre from Tekken is a good example of this
Honoka from DOA
The ones he mentions aren't the only ones in existence, he even show Shang Tsung on the side border when talking about composite characters.
Probably Raidou from DOA is the original "composite" character.
Kakyoin in HFTF is both types of zoner at the same time and he has a bit of shoto aswell no wonder why he is so op
Not to mention a puppet fighter, but then again nearly everyone in that game is with some notable exceptions.
As a guy starting in fighting games this video helped me a lot to discover the playstyle I used when buttommashing with doomsday in Injustice
As a fan of Under Night In-Birth, I was disappointed that Waldstein, a grappler so big he takes up almost half the screen at close ranges, did not come up at all in the grappler category.
I'm sorry, w h a t ?
@@omegaflowey7436 dudes fucking massive. And has a half-screen command grab.
Which doesn't really say much when Phonon exists.
@@DeisFortuna well I have a new game for my list lol
@@omegaflowey7436 zoning with huge hitboxes is kinda UNI's whole thing, just warning you.
Ikr?
But to be honest the one that disappointed me the most was Carl not being included on the Puppet examples.
I am honestly surprised that SNK got zero mention here.
i bet he didn't even know great games like KOF or SamSho
Same with Tekken
Well besides terry at the start but that's it
SNK AND Blazblue. Though BlaBlue at least got a Tager clip in the Grappling section. I found it hilarious that Blazblue had 2 characters that actually use mechanical dolls and he mentioned Rosalina and Luma over Carl and Relius Clover.
@@ninguemmesmo4890 Tekken was mentioned! King, Bob and Zafina are in the sides on the main parts of the explanations.
I think Mewtwo/Shadow Mewtwo from Pokken Tournament counts as a Composite character. They have lots of moves from other characters, especially Shadow Mewtwo.
The first few commonly established archetypes were explained well by giving concrete examples (like how Sol consists of different elements and how projectile and normal zoners differ from each other) but the further the video went on, the less information there was and your definitions became hazier. You listed too many archetypes based on elements that were common among already introduced archetypes such as defining "lots of ambiguous crossups/mixups" as a trait for rushdown but then having "mixup" as a seperate archetype.
In that regard, "Shoto" should be called "all-rounder" and be defined as having a diverse moveset which then could be divided into orthodox all-rounders which have traditional movement and health/defense (eg. Ryu, Ken and Ky) and technical/peaky all-rounders which trade more options for less health because of balancing (Akuma/Gouki, Seth, Chipp). Also, Stun Dipper and Ground Viper aren't projectile invincible moves; the Japanese term tosshin-waza (突進技, meaning "rush/charge move", the most obvious example being Boxer's Dash Straight) is probably what you were looking for since it's the term for moves that travel forward for various purposes (eg. dashing in to close the distance, going through/over/under a projectile, catching a jump/backdash, acting as a frametrap in a specific distance, hitting it meaty for a frame advantage, etc).
Also, "Composite" doesn't make any sense to me because the graphics of a character shouldn't matter when you judge a character by its stats, systems, and moves. "Gimmick" is an equally mysterious category and giving only one example without even (directly) explaining why didn't help either. If the name of the archetype doesn't mean anything then it has no reason to exist (hence calling Bedman an "8-way dash" character would make more sense).
I actually thought you were talking about Baiken because of her guard canceling since it changes the metagame so much. In that aspect Zato is a "gimmick" too, but the puppet archetype became popular because both players and developers liked it (and Capcom's Jojo) while Baiken (and Darkstalkers/Vampire) never had the same kind of success.
For some notable missing stuff, I would have definitely talked about charge, rekka and summon/secchi (設置) elements and how they play into the various archetypes. For example, Leo has traditional boom/somersault from a downback charge, but mostly uses his rekka and other specials for pressure/combos/mixups and on top of those he even has a big slow projectile useful for controlling neutral and creating okizeme in the corner (where his stance is less useful).
Doing a breakdown video on character archetypes is an endless swamp because things aren't black and white and the genre has developed so much over the years, but by naming your video "Full Breakdown/Video Essay" I expected to see more in-depth stuff and less shallow jokes.
I mostly made it as a beginner guide, but I get your criticism. My goal was to just give a brief (less than 20 mins) breakdown on the most common archetypes I hear thrown around, hence why I talked about gimmick (very common buzzword) but I can definitely see where you’re coming from.
Thanks for the constructive criticism though, feedback is always appreciated!
I think separating mixup from rushdown is fine. The elements I think should be mentioned are whiff punishing, punishing from block, and other counterattack related stuff
I was so confused charge characters didn't make it. Especially since it's so 2D focused.
Also I always thought Composite Characters were mostly like Unknown from Tekken Tag, or Ogre from Tekken, oe Mokujin from Tekken, or Shang Tsung from MK, or Owlcadan from Soul Calibur ; a collective of multiple or all characters
, usually bosses
Nitpick of min also; H+he put Hworang and Zafina as examples of stance changing characters instead of Lei Wulong, the notorious stances based Tekken character.
@@uristmccheeselove1019 Dont play 3d fighters, thats why my examples for them were a bit shaky lol, I looked up stance character in tekken and got those two lmao
Good video. I think specifically showcasing one of the 3 stance characters you identified would have been useful for that section to drive how how they work
This is so intelligently made, fantastic job! The part where you defined gimmick characters was very creative, yet perseptive and well articulated!
Subbed due to the fantastic video essay. Keep it up mate! I like your style
I agree with this except Celica from BlazBlue is not a puppet character, its easy to mistake since she has a giant robot partner like Carl/Relius but Minerva doesn't act independently from Celica so essentially they're fused together
Lmao I was gonna comment something but you took the words right out of my mouth.
Yeah. Carl/Relius are independent of Ada/Ignis, but Celica and Minerva are one character that is always together
After the Fighterz remark i was expecting him to say “everyone from jjba hftf” for the puppet category
While that's true thematically, mechanically they're mostly stance characters
I was expecting "everyone from Persona 4 Arena" personally
"Stance characters excel in their role and are weak outside of it."
Eyedol during Instinct: Hol' up!
13:57 I'm home alone and thought someone knocked on my door, thanks for the heart attack lmao
This man really brought up stance fighters without mentioning Yoshimitsu? Damn.
Or Lei Wulong?
Hell even Steve or Hwaorang
I don't think this guy has played/plays much of Tekken
He didn't mention a single Tekken character in the video which is odd considering it's one of the staples in the fighting game genre
@@KappaJones he shows examples on the sides of the screen
@@KappaJones even hwoarang is there
@@KappaJones He has King in the Grapplers and Zafina and Hwoarang in stance characters. I'm more upset he didn't put Ogre under Composite characters.
2:34 I was not ready to see Mario and Muhammad Avdol in the same place, but that’s fighting games baby! Also it reminds me of that dream I had where Avdol was in every single SSB instead of Yoshi, but that’s beside the point.
Well that's specific
now give me art of a fusion between avdol and yoshi
"The glass cannon kills quickly..."
*shows Tracer gameplay*
Is...
Is your...
Why tf is your pfp that of infamous serial killer Albert Fish?
One clip???????
Well, let’s see YOU survive having two machine pistols getting emptied into your head!
Scout (tf2! is a better example imo
@@goldenhydreigon4727 because of morons like you
this video is severely underrated. as i rewatched this video, i began to notice even more details and effort put into this video. big ups
*sees definition of gimmick characters*
The smash bros cast: “uh oh”
Every fucking guy in the fighter pass (perhaos except Banjo and Byleth): *OH YEAH*
P4 arena characters are basically every archetype with puppeteer as a sub-class
I'd say Shadow Labrys and maybe Ken are the only ones that really fit the puppet character archetype (as described here at least). For most characters in that game you're never really controlling both the character and their persona at the same time. Their personas are just part of some of their attacks.
Well yes but actually no.
Except SHO Minazuki.
@Keith Pillsbury So Ebony Devil?
@Keith Pillsbury Remember that one weird guy in the right collum in the Puppeteer section? His doll (technically his Stand but just a vessel of it) is called Ebony Devil.
Injustice 2: everyone is a zoner, after punish a mix-up characters
Grodd and Catwoman have little to know projectiles.
11:06 : Shujinko kameo MK1 and Mokujin from Tekken as well
Besides, here are equivalents to everything in Mortal Kombat
Shoto : Lui Kang, Kung Lao, Kitana, Sub Zero
Grappler : Shao Kahn, Goro, Geras, Jax
Zoner : Quan Chi, Noob Saibot, Reptile, Rain, Ermac
Puppeteer : Kenshi, Johnny Cage, Noob Saibot
Rushdown : Sonya, Kitana, Mileena, Nitara, Smoke, Scorpion
Stance : Ashrah, Ermac
Composite : Shang Tsung (transformation), Shujinko (as a kameo, and even in MK Deception)
For Mixup characters you should have put Wii Fit Trainer. When I played a lot of my gameplay was weird hitboxes and crazy soccer ball snipes no one knew existed. Even high level players had problems figuring out some things because she is an underplayed character in a roster of 80+. She is def one of the best examples of a mixup character in the history of fighting games.
I was expecting Sonic since most of his ball moves are hard to distinguish, though that's more just poor design rather than intentional similarities between specific moves
I would have said perfect example is Voldo but he never mentioned anyone from Soul Caliber.
@@jonstapleton2340 The best example of a mixup character imo is Yoshimitsu
@@shiruotakuno28 Yea I wish he had more examples for us Soul Caliber /Tekken fans.
2:10 shoto
3:00 grappler
4:12 zoner
6:08 rushdown
7:35 puppet
8:56 stance
10:08 composite
11:24 mix-up
12:23 gimmick
10:36 setplay
Sol BadPie? That’s a solely bad pun there.
But good video though! I would like to hear more about those gimmick fighters as they vary a lot in quality and design in general. Maybe compare which ones do well despite losing a basic mechanic with ones that fail without it.
I like trying to uses the archetypes to try to classify for honor heros, it's an interesting thought experiment trying to figure out how the archetypes fit in a game that has a lot of similar mechanics but very distinct differences.
Every character is the same in for honor tho and I’m a rep 70 shinobi
Jade from MK 11 is such a great zoner she even can counter rush down pretty good which is funny because on MK3 she was a God tier rush down character.
*Mk3/mk9 Kabal in the distance:
-good joke you fool
Would pokemon trainer from smash count as a stance switch character? It's switching characters, not stances, but functionally it's very similar
Depends.
Squirtle is kind of a rushdown.
Ivysaur is a zoner.
And Charizard is Spam Flare Blitz until you win
The point of a stance is switching movesets mid battle, so yeah PT definitely counts
Lei wu long from Tekken is stance for sure
yeah
@@goldenhydreigon4727 it is a stance character then
This definitely shows what a diverse cast guilty gear has
7:00
"Rushdown characters tend to have very fast buttons"
Chipp in the bottom left: having a stroke
Good video Edd. We can all agree that teaching fighting games are hard. You managed to make something entertaining without compromising instruction too much.
8:45 Talks about puppet characters
Shows head on fortune
I'm glad someone else saw it. Showing heads-off would have at least given context, even if the gameplay wasn't great.
Taking a look at the clip again, I realised its in this video lol ua-cam.com/video/uMhbWk5AA9k/v-deo.html
Doesn't show jojo characters
14:10 Setplay characters:
"Phoenix and/or Phoenix Wright have gotta be on this list."
Jack-o
Answer
And Juri.
"H O W !"
I'd probably put PW more into the gimmick category. He technically has stance and set play aspects but his main gameplan is to use his unique gimmick of evidence grabbing to level up and get turnabout.
@@MystDawg that thing you are talking a out is called setup. I don't see a world where Phoenix Wright is not a setup character. Grabbing evidence is a setup to Turnabout Mode
@@BeakelZ That's true, but evidence grabbing is a unique mechanic that goes against the rules of the game. I typically see a set up as traps in a sense, like Byakuya in undernight who places spider webs around the stage in order to catch his opponent.
What about Kakyoin? THE ONE GIMMICK THAT MAKES HIM NIGH GOD TIER IS THE NET
I'm surprised that Blaze Blue was only on here once and for a brief moment since most of them are very easy to define, KoF is another game I would have used since they have some good examples in their though I did not play the game often. Loved the video never less
I'll give the archetypes for BlazBlue for you:
Shoto: Jin, Es, Mu (surprisingly)
Grappler: Tager & Bullet
Zoner: Amane, Nu, Rachel
Rushdown: Ragna, Noel, Bullet (again), Terumi, Hazama, etc
Stance: Kagura and Relius
Puppet: Relius and Carl
Mixup: Azrael (he's fucking deadly as hell), Izanami (just as, if not, more deadly), Hakumen (same as the last two)
Setup: Rachel & Litchi
Composite: none
Gimmick: *Everyone in the fucking cast*
Oh, also, quick correction: it's "BlazBlue," not Blaze Blue. But I do understand the confusion.
@@EripmavsDYraid didn't realize I misspelled my favorite fighting game, but yeah blazblue is a gimmick players wet dream
i want to make my own fighting game someday so this video really helped me to get a good idea of what kind of playstyles i want my characters to have
I would also mention the defensive, bait and punish type character. These characters might not have good approach tools, but function on reads and reactions to their opponents to look for openings and counter hits.
So the fighting game version of Roadhog?
Li mei
@@Aaa-vp6ugyes.
Like Hakumen?
Hey, decent video explaining these concepts. I've been playing fighting games for a while and I see this as an overall beneficial video for newcomers especially. I have one criticism though, and it's not a major one, but something that did bother me a bit. Your examples are a bit limited; a lot of them come from one of 3 games (sometimes those games being repeated when there are other examples out there that might have helped better flesh out the variance on the concepts that can be taken depending on the game), and while good as a primer, showing off characters from say, KOF, Tekken, Under Night, BlazBlue, etc. in terms of gameplay, and going a little more in depth, would be welcomed.
Other than that, keep it up.
I agree with this. I really liked the video. But, the whole time I'm like...Where is King for Grappler? Where is Voldo? How did he not use Shang Tsung? Or Kowal Khan?
What are the Archetypes of the Characters from The King of Fighters? For example, Geese Howard,Ryuji Yamazaki, Chizuru Kagura, Iori Yagami etc?