Why The Knuckleball Is Basically Extinct... The Unpredictable Pitch With NO SPIN..
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- Опубліковано 20 тра 2024
- What happened to the KNUCKLEBALL? It was a pitch that helped extend and make the careers of many pitchers such as R.A. Dickey, Tim Wakefield and the Niekro brothers Joe Niekro and Phil Niekro.. In modern baseball, the pitch is extremely rare and there are currently no pitchers who use it! Humm Baby Baseball will examine a couple reasons why that might be.
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Wakefield lasted so long with the Red Sox because he basically said use me how you like. Starter, reliever, spot starter, and his salary was a flat $5M each year (the last several years) - they had an understanding - I want to pitch, if you want me to pitch too, it's $5M. Even when he had great years - he understood what he was, and he rode that home-town-discounted $5M/year until he was 44. Because of that selfless attitude, and the knuckler, he was a huge local fan favorite.
Imagine being so good at something you take a 5 million dollar salary and get worshipped for the discount.
he also does a TON of charity work.
Wake is still my favorite pitcher. Such a rare breed of athlete. Basically the guy who showed up every day and did whatever it took to help his team.
I mean who needs more than 5 million realistically anyways? Most of us live and die never having over 100k at any one time. He seemed like a realist, taking a longer career over a short one that pays more.
@@twistedladder3506 Its about generational wealth. Not just your own wealth imo.
Being able to know your kids, your grand kids, your grand kids kids will not need to worry about money, would take a lot of stress off.
A knuckleballer between 2 flame throwers in your rotation could be advantageous. The 1980 Astros had JR Richard and Nolan Ryan in their rotation until Richard's unfortunate stroke. But they didn't pitch back to back. Instead, Joe Niekro was sandwiched in between. So imagine a weekend series facing JR with the gas and wicked slider, then adjusting to Niekro's flutter ball, then now adjusting to strikeout king Nolan.
cruel! :-)
That's what the Dodgers did with Tom Candiotti too, even more so because they didn't have any left-handed starters at the time.
@@mal2ksc i remember the dodgers went something like 5 years without a lefty making a start
I actually can't imagine that; particularly given how _casual_ Ryan and Richard were with the strike zone.
I'm glad you mentioned J.R,. He was a terrific pitcher until his health declined.
"Wind currents" don't move the ball. The ball moves because of uneven air pressure due to its lack of spin. Spin creates lift (the Bernoulli Effect). Because the knuckler doesn't spin (much), air pressure can build up on one side of the ball or the other, causing to to change direction in flight. Although some pitchers develop a tendency in terms of ball flight direction, it is nearly random for the most part. Thus, it's unpredictability (for the pitcher, the hitter, the catcher, and the umpire).
Bob Uecker once said that catching the knuckleball was easy. "I just wait for it to stop rolling and then I go over and pick it up."
Spin creating lift is the Magnus effect. Bernoulli's principles
/law describe pressure and velocity's relation, allowing for other effects such as the Magnus effect
Nice to know scientists also love baseball ..
wind absolutely influences the movement of pitches
The reason the uneven air pressure can build up is the raised stitching. The ideal knuckler doesn't have NO spin, just enough to have the profile of the stitching change while it's in flight. I've read that ideally the ball should make between 1 and 1.5 full rotations. (As a side note, throwing a knuckleball into a headwind does provide additional break, sometimes a lot more.)
But why doesn’t gravity pull it down? Hint, gravity is an unproven theory, a lie. Research flat earth, it’s Bible and Truth
My favourite story about knuckleballers is the one told by Johnny Bench. Sparky Anderson mentioned to Bench that the Reds were looking into trading for Charlie Hough. Bench's response was, "you better trade for Hough's catcher too."
Bench also said that Phil Niekro was the pitcher he feared the most because of his knuckleball. Ironically, he the only hitter to hit a home run off Niekro's Ephus pitch.
LMAO!🤣
When the Blue Jays traded for Dickey, they also traded for Danny Jansen to catch for him.
That was Josh Thole who came with Dickey. Jansen is their current catcher
@@nickhughes8179 Oh right, my bad.
And one of the great knuckleball pitchers had recently passed, RIP Tim Wakefield.
For sure a fine Honest humble player and family man !!!!!!!
Bob Uecker (announcer in the film Major League) was one of the absolute best personal catchers for legendary knuckleballer Phil Niekro. Some good Uecker quotes:
“Catching Niekro’s knuckleball was great. I got to meet a lot of important people. They all sit behind home plate.”
“In those days, Phil had less control. Sometimes I’d know before he let go of it that it was going to get by me. I’d just start running and play it off the wall. At least I got to know a lot of the folks in the box seats.”
"In 1967 I set a major-league record for passed balls, and I did that without playing every game. There was a game, as a matter of fact, during that year when Phil Niekro's brother (Joe) and he were pitching against each other in Atlanta. Their parents were sitting right behind home plate. I saw their folks that day more than they did the whole weekend."
"Every time (Niekro) started, I went through the same ritual before the game. I took four aspirin for the headache I knew I would have afterwards."
gawd Uecker was great 😂
"The way to catch a knuckleball is to wait until it stops rolling and then pick it up."
Bob is the announcer for the Brewers.
God, I love Bob Uecker. The man is a legend and always makes me smile.
I tried to master it. If that is possible.
I just aimed for the middle of the plate and belt high. Knew it was NOT going to go there.
But the problem was nobody wanted to catch it.
I’ve heard the knuckleball described as a survival pitch. Players develop it when it’s their last shot at making the Show. Wakefield was an infielder in the minor leagues who was about to get cut when he said “uh, I can throw a knuckleball”
Yup I only topped out at 85 so I had to resort to being a junk pitcher so my senior year of highschool i added the knuckle ball to my pitches. In my warmup pens before I started, I would throw 2 or 3 of them to see if it was working that day. It usually depended on the length and strength of my finger nails. Catchers could never catch it though so I would only ever use it while bases were empty.
@@MmoviesE i remember watching that game when Neikro had the finger nail board in his back pocket and got caught by the ump using it to scuff the ball.😂
Lol I pitched modified fast pitch softball got older speed went down until I taught myself the Kb
Wade Boggs pitched a few innings in relief throwing a knuckler. He did well.
@@joemarshall4226 I was watching that game live too.🤣
One of my favorite things to watch in baseball is to see a slo-mo of a knuckleball with close to no spin fluttering towards the plate.
Its really crazy, some of these clips have absolutely zero spin. If you've ever thrown anything in your life you know how hard that is. Our natural body mechanics just make it spin.
I got to see Mickey Jannis in AA a few years back right behind home plate. It was really something to watch.
thats not slow motion lol
I had a friend in college who could throw the knuckleball. He took me to the side of the dorm one time and threw it to me. It was scary trying to catch it. He told me to quit trying to catch it and just swat it down with the glove I was using. I had no catchers mask or pads. When that thing darted toward your face at the last second it was unnerving.
When I played Babe Ruth ball in high school, there was one kid that could throw a good knuckler and I never could hit it worth a damn. The few times I even caught a piece of it, I was lucky. It is such a weird pitch.
I'd love to see the pitch come back.
Your story sounds like mine. My college roommate over the summer was a knuckler that pitched for our college team. I went out to play catch with him. That did not last long. The ball was literally going all over the place.
@@darrenbernat7349
No joke. I swear it messes with your mind.
yeah, i had a high school friend who asked me to catch in the gym. for some reason i was always afraid of hard ball. I played contact sports but no baseball. well, i sweated out 10 mins of catching before my friend had mercy on me.
This really needs to come back into the current game
yes!
Mlb the show would be a nightmare
It's hard to teach. Have you seen the documentary about the knuckleball.
It wont ever come back. It's a gimmick pitch and very inconsistent and almost impossible to stay consistent
@@SnipeyGaming I won’t say it’ll never comeback , but we’re not seeing a knuckleballer for a cool minute
Jim Bouton wrote in his book Ball Four that he had to throw daily to keep his knuckleball sharp and managers didn’t like it because they thought his arm would be too tired. He said the knuckleball placed no strain in his arm and he could throw more pitches. He came a up as a fire baller but injured his arm and used the knuckleball to extend his career. Ball Four is a good read but baseball and especially commissioner Bowie Kuhn hated it.
Bob Feller tried to have Ball Four banned. Eventually, I got Dom DiMaggio to talk about it, and he said that a lot of the stuff in the book was probably true but often out-of-context. Dom used to tell the most hilarious stories about Ty Cobb.
@@astrobullivant5908 interesting! I looked up some comments from Ty regarding Joe DiMaggio. I would imagine Dom did have some interesting opinions.
@@astrobullivant5908 I wonder how Dom DiMaggio would know what was true and what was out of context for the 1969 Seattle Mariners. How involved was he with that team?
@@PotrzebieConolly Dom wasn't involved with the '69 Pilots at all. However, the book, at least certain editions, contained a lot of hearsay about the way Baseball had been for decades.
@@PotrzebieConolly They were the Seattle Pilots. They moved in 1970 and became the Milwaukee Brewers.
I think you hit on a lot of the important points for why the pitch is almost extinct in MLB. I think some other reasons go along with those. In addition to being a very hard pitch to throw, there's very little margin for error with it before it becomes a meatball (as you said), and most knuckleballers are almost *exclusively* knuckleballers. So if they don't have the feel for their knuckleball in a particular game, there's very little else they can mix in to work through it.
Plus, the whole concept of the knuckleball is swimming against the two biggest currents in modern pitching orthodoxy. Everyone nowadays focuses on high velocity and high spin rate...and the knuckleball intentionally minimizes both of those.
Using rapsodo and edgertronics can work the other way to record the grip that gives you the least amount of spin. The other thing is that it’s more acceptable for a starter to pitch 5 innings and leave before going through the order a third time.
Right. As a Red Sox fan growing up Tim Wakefield always made me nervous when he was on the mound
Smoltz used to sneak a knuckler in about once a month, later in his career. I can't say if it was any good or not, but it was sure unexpected. I've always wondered if he had the cojones to float one up there when he was closing.
Even the best pushed out knuckleball can end up a meat ball or past the catcher.
@@Madmoody21 Well that is what is beautiful about the knuckler; it has it's own say in things. It's a very democratic ball, as opposed to four seam strikeouts, which are fascist.
Man the heyday of Tim Wakefield throwing his little floating knuckler, especially when he first burst onto the scene with the Pirates, was really different time in baseball, but it was always fun watching guys succeed with the knuckler
As a Braves fan I despised him in the 92 NLCS🤣
I think I remember Wakefield starting a season like 20-2 with the BoSox before losing like ten in a row.
Wakefield was a fastball pitcher in Pittsburgh mostly.... wasn't until Boston that he used it FULL time. It's when he had no speed left and had to change his game
Yeah, the Red Sox became very welcoming of knucklers after Wake's success. In the late 00's, they had a prospect at AAA that threw the knuckler named Charlie Zink; he ended up coming up for a single major league appearance, a start at Fenway against the Rangers. It ended up being a legendary game, though not really for Zink's performance: the Red Sox spotted him _10 runs in the first inning,_ but he ran into trouble in the fifth inning and was unable to pitch the requisite 5 innings for a win...not that the Sox' bullpen stopped the bleeding well enough to have gotten him the decision anyway. Despite leading 10-0 after one inning and 12-2 after three, the Sox trailed 16-14 at the seventh-inning stretch before rallying in the eighth inning for a 19-17 win.
@@CyberchaoX I was at the game. It was against the rangers, papi hit two home runs in the first inning if I remember correctly. Then they traded blows for 9 innings until youkilis put it away with a bomb.
I have a teammate in college who actually throws a good knuckleball and it's so hard to hit against. It just dances around your barrel as it gets to you
Interestingly the knuckleball has had a true renaissance in cricket of all places...
Guys like Bhuveneshwar Kumar introduced it into the sport and since then guys like T Natarajan, Arshdeep Singh, Shardul Thakur and Deepak Chahar perfected the art - with Chahar having an 80 MPH knuckleball!
That is very interesting. Maybe the key to bringing back the knuckleball in the MLB is finding cricket knuckleballers willing to tryout for baseball, like the “Million Dollar Arm” pitchers from back in the day
@@grant5122 I think the knuckleball is just much better suited for cricket...
In cricket there is muck more room for leeway in accuracy and so the bowler (pitcher) does not get penalised for it, while the mere act of bamboozling batters and not conceding runs is a great thing in cricket that will make you incredibly valuable
In the same manner by the way almost every major cricket team has a Shohei Ohtani equivalent - with the Kolkata Knight Riders having 4!, while at the ssme time every baseball team has power hitters as good as the best cricket has to offer
Was going to say the same thing!
Posted the same thing elsewhere
In baseball if you want knuckleballer, you don't just grab a knuckleball pitcher, you also grab knuckleball catcher, preferably those that already paired well with said pitcher.
In crickets there's no catcher, and the punishment for missing the target (whatever it is) is less severe than failing to catch a pitch. Rather the use of knuckleball in cricket might be too low, as the ability to bounce the ball off the ground already give some sense of randomness anyway
This is where video games are great. I'm not a HUGE baseball fan, but enjoy playing the MLB games, and when I do a career as a pitcher, I throw some crazy pitches lol. My current one I've got the Knuckleball, your standard 4 seamer, a screwball, a forkball, and a knuckle curve. When you can choose any pitches you want, and up to 5, why not have fun and make a pitcher with a crazy arsenal?
I really want this back. Besides being effective when thrown well, it makes for some hilarious blooper *and* highlight reels. Truly uncanny, and brings so much fun to the game.
This was great, especially the point of pitchers having to change their style due to increasing longevity. My Uncle Bill pitched for the Cardinals for almost 15 years after personally being discovered by Branch Rickey with over 300 games pitched and several 50 FULL seasons in his career.
Despite throwing an unGodly number of pitches in his career, he did alright because of his early implantation of the " slow ball/breaker, curve and slider. You cant be a fireballer and expect to stay
Healthy
Unless you’re Nolan Ryan
Thanks!
@@David-ln5jw Good point, the old man was built differently although not to take anything away from him because Ryan is the GOAT, by the 70s you already had your middle reliever and closer in place. Nolan pitched something like 40 complete games which is a ton. Guys like my Uncle were pitching that many complete games in a season.
Beats you up if you are a Bill Sherdel or Grover Alexander on those 1920s Cardinal teams or any of those guys before the 50s
@@David-ln5jw Or Randy Johnson.
I’m going to guess your Uncle Bill was either Bill Doak or Bill Sherdel?
It has only been a couple years since MLB had a knuckleballer, they will be back. It's a hard pitch to throw, catch and it requires a certain weather and stitching on the balls to be truly effective.
Someone in the front office will realize that a knuckleballer can keep your bullpen on the bench for a night, figure out that even 15 appearances a year would be worth the money. But you can't put the guy in a 4 day rotation, because that will put him in games that the weather isn't right.
Favorite baseball book, Ball Four by knuckleballer Jim Bouton.
100% agree with everything you said
Part of you is right but teams aren't really carrying long relievers anymore. Not the classic swing-arm in the bullpen. That's considered a waste of a spot plus most of your bench are pitchers anyways.
Yes! Ball Four destroyed the Yankees myth.
Phil Neikro was my favorite Brave of all time (along with Hank Aaron). Yes, he had a lot of walks (3rd all time, but almost a thousand behind Nolan Ryan), but won over 300 games! Maybe take a young (minor league) pitcher with a high 80s fastball who'd probably never make the big leagues and start teaching him the pitch as long as he has the patience to stick with it.
Will it even work in a dome?
I sat behind home plate a section to the right of home plate and watched Tim Wakefield pitch against the Mariners at what was then Safeco Field. It was an absolute pleasure to watch. It was like his pitches would take a quick breath just before home plate and then flutter to the catcher's glove. It defied physics. Damn, it was so cool!
*defined by * physics
@@ricky5369 An exaggeration meant to express how odd the ball moved. Not to be taken literally. Obviously, or so I thought.
@@unSelf21 I get the expression, I'm pointing out the irony that the pitch is literally meant to exploit physics. I have a physics degree so it's interesting to me.
@@ricky5369 Excellent! But all the quantum fluctuations in the Multiverse won't change the fact that you're just being a smug troll.
@@unSelf21 wtf are you talking about that's not a thing, and you just didn't get the joke you're taking it the wrong way
Jim Bouton wrote in Ball Four that he talked to Joe Niekro about the knuckleball and why Niekro would throw a fastball instead. Niekro said if his arm felt too strong he'd throw a fastball to tire his arm out. If his arm was too strong then he said his knuckleball wasn't that good.
I remember watching Wakefield throw a pitch that was 37 mph. His lead foot only left the ground by a few inches with barely a stride towards the plate. Looked like he playing catch with his kids.
I saw a documentary about the knuckleball where R.A. Dickey got shelled on opening day, and it was determined that his knuckler wasn't working because he had a broken nail, which caused the ball to spin too much. I've also heard that it's an easy pitch to steal a base off of because of how slow it is.
I play Out of the Park Baseball and whenever I see a Knuckleball pitcher spawn I snag them up on the spot. It is such an interesting pitch and as a Red Sox fan back when Tim Wakefield was part of the team win or lose, vying for a no hitter or getting absolutely lit up unique pitchers like him, Steven Wright, Bob Stanley (with his Palmball) or similar junk ball pitchers always made the game interesting back then.
Growing up with the Red Sox on TV, Tim Wakefield was always a pitcher I didn’t know how to feel about on the mound. Some nights he had his stuff, other nights he was bombed harder than the Somme. Not only that, but it also meant Jason Varitek was on the bench since Doug Maribelli was Wakefield’s catcher as Varitek has trouble with knuckleballs.
That said, Sox Nation has a soft spot in their hearts for Tim Wakefield. Towards the end of his career, he actually was good enough to be elected into an All Star Game. Unfortunately, he didn’t pitch; which I found disappointing, I wanted to see a bunch of All Stars potentially struggle against Wakefield’s knuckleball.
Love me some Tim Wakefield. I tried to learn how to throw the knuckleball because of him, but because it was the few days of the internet, and no one knew how to actually throw it, I never added it to my pitches.
Then I started playing slow-pitch softball, and I've been throwing it for 2 years. Same idea, and it's still a work in progress, but when it works...oh boy.
It got really stressful when the Sox made Wake the closer for a short period of time.
I think I remember years later they re-signed the by that point retired Mirabelli in an emergency (maybe injuries?). He had to fly across country the same day to catch Wake.
I might be completely misremembering something though.
@@SeanCMonahan Maribelli was on the Padres for a short while, but then the Red Sox resigned him in 2006(?) and he was literally rushed to the game. I believe the back up made to catch Wake that day was injured, but I could be forgetting some detail.
@@SeanCMonahan You're not too far off. Mirabelli had left in free agency to the Padres, but his replacement, Josh Bard, couldn't catch a knuckleball, either. Theo traded for Doug, flew him cross-country where they landed 12 minutes before gametime after the pilot had cleared airspace on the flight path. A police escort to the field was next, with Mirabelli changing in the vehicle on the way to Fenway.
I used to watch Tim Wakefield all the time, and I would drive around w/ a baseball in my hand, and making the Wakefield knuckled grip. I modeled my delivery after him and everything. Played in adult leagues, served up some home runs before I learned how to use it right. The pitch made me obsessed with baseball, and now I love to make the ball flutter. it’s like a freak accident, and one of the greatest feelings. Also, the video didn’t mention Dennis Springer, Steve Sparks, and Charlie Haeger!!
Charlie Haeger. I had high hopes for him.
After I read RA Dickey's autobiography, "Whenever I Windup" he became my favorite major leaguer of all time. I then watched a documentary about the knuckleball and Tim Wakefield and Charley Hough joined Dickey at the top of my list. These are the ones I have watched the most. The Niekro brothers, Joe and Phil, are also on the top of my list. I hadn't thought of the others and hadn't really followed them. These men were amazing to me. Thank you.
what documentary was it?
@@ogvektor I first saw it on Primer or Roku. When I tried to find it on those streaming apps says it isn't available but here is a UA-cam link: ua-cam.com/video/_zXC_TReY1U/v-deo.html. UA-camr: knuckleball! 2Scoop@2scoop831 has it. Hopefully you enjoy it as much as I did. Thank you!
I remember watching Wilhelm warm up for the Dodgers in 1971, we were sitting next to the bullpen. He had such an easy motion. To me he threw pretty hard. He was 48 years old.
One of the enjoyable stories in Ball Four was Jim Bouton trying to talk catchers to catch his knuckleball in the bullpen.
Good news - after being let go by Chicago, Jannis signed with the High Point Rockers of the Atlantic League and did well posting a 2.72 ERA in 39.2 innings in the regular season. In the playoffs he had one bad outing, giving up 7 runs in 5 innings. But he also had a solid one in the championship series, giving up one run in 6 innings. Great video, long live the Knuckleball!
When strikes/balls start being called electronically (they're working on it) the knuckleball will be back. It's the pitch most commonly miscalled as a ball when it's really a strike, so it would have a huge benefit to knuckleballers.
Even though i was never a huge baseball fan, I used to watch Charlie Hough and Tim Wakefield whenever I found a chance, just because the knuckler is so rare. Saw the Niekro bros pitch a few times too, but was too young to understand what I was seeing.
ive been to around 14 tim wakefield starts in my childhood. i was always disappointed when i saw him over josh beckett, but i never witnessed a loss with tim on the bump. and having paid bookoo bucks to watch an ace lose, its a lot more satisfying to witness a W from whomever throws it
Good video...I liked the impersonations you did lol. I do like the knuckleball and I hope someone can bring it back....it's a fun pitch.
Growing up as a Ranger fan I loved Charlie Hough and I knew about the Niekro brothers so I just figured the knuckle ball was going to be a part of baseball forever. It was fun while it lasted...
Hoyt Wilhelm, one of the great knuckleballers, baffled batter for many years.
One time, Norman Cash of the Tigers went to bat against Hoyt Wilhelm with a table leg instead of a bat. He said it would be just as effective.
Another Tiger player, Charlie Maxwell, developed a reputation for hitting home runs on Sundays. He hit a dinger off Hoyt one Sunday and was asked how he managed to do it. He said, "I just closed my eyes, counted three, and swung."
Another story, possibly an urban legend, was that in spring training, the pitching coach send a minor league catcher out to catch some warm-up pitches. As he walked to the plate, the coach yelled out, "Wait, you forgot you mask." The kid said, "What do I need a mask for? I'm just going to catch some warm-ups." When he revived on the trainer's table he said, "I don't get it. The pitch was too high, I reached for it, and it hit me in the face."
Gus Triandos was Wilhelm's catcher In Baltimore. Tired of all the passed balls he was getting charged with he worked with Wilson Sporting Goods and came up with the "elephant" mitt which was almost twice the circumference of a standard catcher's mitt.
All fake stories but thanks anyway
Not to be annoying but Norm Cash actually went to the plate with a table leg against Nolan Ryan, who had a slightly different pitching style than Hoyt Wilhelm
No one called Norm Cash 'Norman' not even play by play commentators. Robert at 67.
Great stories. I remember Charlie “Paw Paw” Maxwell and his Sunday punch.
@@DrVonNostrand Wrong, son. The stories are real. I remember them all.
The last knuckle ball I remember was the one that Reggie Jackson put deep center field in Yankee Stadium to Charlie Hough in is last at bat of the 1977 World Series.
I experimented with a knuckle ball, in my teens. Sometimes I could knuckle one pretty good, but not very consistently. I had trouble throwing a successful one multiple times in a row. Ended up scrapping it.
I too used to throw the knuckles ball in my teens. I had alot of success with a 3 finger knuckles, that I used as a 3rd strike pitch. I ❤️ that pitch!
@@techvape2671 I only threw my knuckler when nobody was on base.
This chanel brings me so much closer to baseball man i love it so much knowledge
It was awesome to get to go to Fenway Park and watch Tim Wakefield pitch. It seemed like every game I went to he was the starter. Saw some great performances from him. One of my favorite Red Sox players ever. a real stand up dude too
Steve Sparks was a knuckleballer for Detroit in the 2000's. He did pretty well.
steve sparks sucked
In my entire lifetime, I pitched in ONE pickup baseball game, and I threw only knucklers and laughably slow"fastballs" as an occasional change of pace. The first knuckler I threw, and most of them throughout the game, actually WORKED. It was a fun day. Hilarious to watch hitters hungrily gear up to try and CRUSH such a tantalizingly slow pitch, only to end up chopping air....😆😆
You can’t throw a knuckleball. 🤡
Good video. I learned a little bit about baseball. I remember Phil Niekro being a well known knuckle baller from when I was a kid and I had the Topps card in the video. Go Cubs Go!!!
Great video. I honestly didn't know about the Heir to the Neikro line trying to come back as a knuckleballer.
Which is why baseball is turning quite boring because everything will be so generic, almost every pitcher has the fastball as their main pitch, everyone looks the same and has the same stuff, no one is original in any aspect. Hitting is also the same, all hitters try to hit home runs, there's no contact hitters anymore and everybody just strikes out or hits home runs. No stolen bases, no sac bunts, no bunt hits. The only strategy is to hit the ball as hard as they can and that's it.
The sad thing is that the 4 seam fastball is statisically the worst pitch in baseball. The best pitch in baseball is the Splitter, then the slider, then curveball.
maybe a pitcher needs to come along that just pitches breaking balls as his primary pitch type or soemthing
So basically it's the 1950s all over again. Fine by me. It's proven stolen bases have minimal benefit, they're honestly just there for entertainment purposes.
The Royals went to the World Series in 2014 and 2015 and won in 2015 with contact hitters and then lost the core of their line up to free agency in 2016. Freakin Scott Boras.
You're exactly right, I couldn't have said it any better. Then you add in all this analytic stuff that's been going on and it just takes the fun out of it for me and makes the game even more boring -- and now technical -- than you mentioned, as if the lack of fundamentals isn't bad enough. Call me old school, defiant, resistant, whatever, but when a guy hits a baseball I don't want to have to think about it in terms of exit velocity, angle of the flight path, how many gazillion feet (what's next, inches too?) it went, how fast the pitch came in, angle of the bat swing, you name it. I don't want to always have to associate numbers, metrics, stats, blah blah with every instance of a ball leaving someone's hand and either hitting the bat or a glove, no matter whether it's a pitch, an attempted stolen base (wow, what's that?!), or a throw into the infield from the outfield. Again, it just makes things too boring and technical for me in that regard...I don't want to have to "think" that hard just to watch a ball game. I'd rather "watch" it instead and just leave it at that, which the way this game has gone in recent years -- and continues to go -- is becoming tougher to do.
Pretty much exactly what I was writing, so I'll just cut and paste here.
Yes, it's gone. The screwball, palm ball, roundhouse curve, fork ball, and a bunch of other pitches are endangered. So are sidewinders, and junk ball, and pitch-to-contact pitchers. All pitchers now throw a cutter and a change, and all the hitters look like lumberjacks who work the count to strikeout, walk, or hit a home run. No more base stealers, no more Rod Carew or even Wade Boggs hitters. No more characters. Remember Mark Fidrych? All these guys are camped together from a young age and they all know each other by the time they are in the Major League. No more tryouts. No more Dan Driessens or Ron LeFlores. Baseball has lost much of it's texture going for a bland sameness.
In the 1970s the Cincinnati Reds thought of dealing for Phil Niekro from the Braves until Johnny Bench warned them they'd need to trade for a new catcher as well! Bench didn't want to lose his status as a Gold Glove catcher. Too many wild pitches from knuckleballers are tallied as past balls which are charged as errors to catchers.
I was a knuckler in a local adult league. I threw it pretty slow. I remember the looks on the batters faces when I first threw it. They were like "wtf" and actually were laughing or smiling at how slow it was. But when they couldn't hit it they quickly got serious. Great video and history of the pitch. Thank you.
Underrated baseball UA-cam channel . Do more deep dives!
“I work for three weeks to get my swing down pat and Phil (Niekro) messes it up in one night,” said Pete Rose. “Trying to hit that thing is a miserable way to make a living.”
The only way someone's throwing a knuckleball if it's a position player pitching
We need some utility fielder to randomly come into a blowout game and throw 4 scoreless with a knuckleball and end up making millions in the rotation.
Used to practice throwing a knuckle ball all the time in little league. Kept at it as I got older, ended up throwing knuckles in high school for strikes. More fun than a curve!
Was throwing with my nephew a few months ago and got to show him a couple. Gotta love the game
Well, it wasn’t a short video but it was very informative!! Excellent video!!!
Well done!!!! Thank you
Very interesting indeed. Good job. I can't believe that one guy said it was a "trick" pitch and should be banned. It's a thrown ball like all other pitches.
With slow-pitch softball I'm always reminded that the knuckleball is a much more difficult pitch than something like a curve ball or change up. It's real too bad we don't see more MLB players currently doing the knuckleball.
...I'd like to see a series where you describe all the pitchs. Slider, curve, etc.
It's cool seeing it from behind the plate in slow motion.
Very informative and entertaining video. Thank you.
If Jamie Moyer had ever figured out the knuckle ball he’d still be pitching today lol.
Bartolo Colón too.
Love Wake and Tek together! Wish they could find another duo like them. Great to see Tek in the dugout these days and Wake on NESN.
Tek didn't like catching Wakefield.
@@marshaevelyn1 Truth! Tough job
Charlie’s son is a good buddy of mine, to hear the baseball stories is something a sports guys dream. My fav is while playing with ChiSox, Bo Jackson was rehabbing his new hip. His “rehab weight” on the leg press was my buddy’s max weight. Said he was the strongest man he ever saw.
Baseball is the most fascinating of all the big sports. Angles, off speed, spin, lefty, screwball, etc. just amazing
Believe it or not. I started throwing a knuckleball around age 8. By 14. I was pulled from the JV team to the varsity to start against certain teams. My fastball couldn't break a window pane. But my curve and a natural cut/slider would eat up a right handed batter. My knuckle ball flustered batters with a 1-2 or 2-2 count. Funniest knuckleball was one that hit a batter in the back and bounced up an hit his bat for a foul tip strike (in batters box). lol The scariest. Pitching the second game of a double header. Bases loaded, count 2-2, 1 out. Knuckleball did not break. Just floated calmly until the beast at the plate launched it like a rocket straight away centerfield. It may still be flying around out there. That was 35 years ago. lol Great video.
This was a VERY good documentary on the pitch, its history, and why it seems to be going the way of the dodo. Being a Red Sox fan for 40 years, I saw more than my share of Tim Wakefield starts on television and in person. On the nights the ball danced just right, you couldn't hit that pitch with an oversized tennis racket. Of course, there were more than a few times that it didn't fool batters and it turned ugly fast. There was actually one game against the Tigers in Detroit in which he gave up SIX home runs, yet he still managed to earn the win. Believe it or not, Wakefield is tied with Roger Clemens for the most wins by a Red Sox pitcher (192), and he even took a turn for part of one season as a closer. I will say that there is still room in baseball for the pitch, but it's unlikely that you'll find a pitcher who exclusively throws the knuckleball, and even then, it cannot be his primary weapon.
Why not
Great video on the knuckleball! One thing I don't hear mentioned is the effect of throwing off hitters' rhythm and timing when facing a knuckleball pitcher. Hitting is all about rhythm and timing. It's not so hard to hit a 95mph fastball if you see it every single day. But sprinkle in a starter (or reliever) that throws a knuckleball at 60mph, over a 4-game series, then there may be some problems. How do hitters adjust - not just for the knuckleball pitcher that day, but also for when they go back to facing conventional pitching? I think it can throw them off, on both accounts.
Tim Wakefield is loved here in beantown. So many great memories watching him dominate at Fenway. From our came so close years to our world series years he was great.
loving the history of the knuckleball!
The reason that you dont see the knuckleball as much is because they shrunk the strike zone.They did that in the early nineties or late eighties.The strike zone is about 1.5 to 2 feet smaller now then what it was when the knuckleball was used quite a bit.Some of the longest pitching careers were knuckballers in the sixties and early 70s in particular.Its a hitter's game now and they dont call the highstrikes anymore.
They didn't shrink the zone by 2 feet. Guys like Maddux used to try to pitch further and further outside - and knew that to make it look like a strike they'd have to keep the ball low.
@@SimonFoster23111971 Yes they did the zone used to be bigger,they shrunk it to have more runs and not so boring games.I think it was late eighties when they did that.
Too many one nothing scores.The league thought it best.Thats why they get football scores some time.
How about doing a video on the ephus pitch? When I was a kid growing up in the Bronx in the late 60s and early 70s, the Yankees had a lefty reliever by the name of Steve Hamilton. I would get excited when he’d come on to pitch in anticipation of him throwing his version of the ephus, the “folly floater”.
You left off Jim Bouton, who made a great comeback in the late 70's after being out of baseball and then developing the knuckler. My neighbor, who played JC baseball for a natl champion team, was an infielder but he had the best knuckler I have ever seen. No one could hit it, but the coach was reluctant to let him use it due to its gimmicky reputation. That guy could throw it two feet off the ground and it would suddenly jump up, it was amazing.
I’ll expand upon the statement that there is a stigma associated with throwing the knuckleball. In the movie Bull Durham, pitcher Nuke LaLoosh said that he wouldn’t throw a curveball because he wanted to “announce my presence with authority.” I’m sure that attitude still persists today, especially among younger pitchers. No pitcher is able to announce their presence with authority by throwing a knuckleball.
I pitched as high as Double A. I don't remember any pitcher in college or after that didn't try to throw the knuckleball. The guys that weren't going to make it tried harder (and side-arm, split-finger, circle change, whatever). There's no stigma, it's just damn hard. Anyone can throw it, almost no one can pitch with it effectively. They either can't control it or it doesn't move.
I'm sure we appreciate you expanding on the topic based on a movie you once saw.
The knuckleball has really become a lost art in baseball. As a knuckleball pitcher my entire life, I looked up to guys like Tim Wakefield, R.A. Dickey, etc. and knowing that there aren’t any of them left (aside from those who throw a knuckle curve) really saddens me!
Where did you pitch?
I’ve got three different knuckleballs with distinct grips.
Used my first knuckles for all three pitches: Half to 3/4ths a rotation @ 82 mph with two, one to two rotations @ 78 mph with three, zero to one rotation @ 68 mph with all four.
First one is most like a knuckle slider, second a knuckle curve/change, and the last one a true knuckleball.
Rotational consistency was tightest with two, but the amount of movement was greatest with all four. The misses with four were so painful though.
Fun and interesting video! Bring back the knuckleball, variety is the spice of life!
Zach Greinke had a nasty knuckle ball with the dbacks but he didn’t use it much
He really didn't need to, he had that semi-Eephus "slow curve" to mess with a hitter's timing, and he could throw it for strikes.
4:10 Nolan Ryan pitched 332 innings in 1973 and was one of the first pitchers (along with Steve Carlton) to go all-in on strength training to keep in shape.
Wilbur Wood threw 40 more innings in 1972 despite being, to put it indelicately, fat.
Knuckleballers are typically pitchers who have lost the ability to overpower hitters. Managers and GMs will always prefer power pitchers, so the guys who lose that skill don't often get the chance to transition to the knuckler. Additionally, it's difficult to catch, and fairly easy to steal against. As a result, most of the teams who used knuckleballers were bad teams.
Phil Niekro was statistically the best pitcher in the NL three times in the 1970s, but the Braves were so terrible that (1) he alone couldn't pull them up, (2) they shared a division with both the Big Red Machine and the Dodgers: in 1974, the Braves had the same record as NL East champion Pittsburgh, yet finished ten games behind Cincinnati - who, in turn, finished ten MORE games behind LA. Finally, (3) he ended up pitching a ton of complete games that he lost. One season he went 21-20; in another he was 19-18. Between 1977 and 1979, he pitched 1,007 innings and threw over 60 complete games. This is another reason bad teams used to employ knuckleballers: as staff savers, since usually, teams that employ those guys don't generally have a lot of good pitching otherwise.
Wilbur Wood was similar, pitching for the White Sox in the same era.
Hough went to World Series in LA in 1974, 1977 and 1978, but those teams were so good that he was only a marginal contributor in the postseason. I don't recall that he was ever on any other notable teams, and he never made any postseason appearances after 1978, so it's safe to say that the one good team he played for kept him pretty far down the depth chart.
Excellent Video!
I learned to pitch this from my actual knuckles 30 years ago. Loved this pitch.
I loved this story of the knuckleball! Very interesting! I personally think having as many different pitches as we can helps keep baseball fun and interesting. It’s shame it currently seems to be dying/to have died out. This analytical age of baseball is usually downer for me. Computers and conformity. No thanks! Bring back the human elements, variety and creativity please! Please Mr. Baseball… ! ( this for the commissioner? For the baseball gods? But…I am afraid there is maybe no coming back.😢). Thank you Mr. Hummbaby Baseball for the great content❣️❤️⚾️ God Bless!
One of my favorite old time baseball quotes comes from a veteran catcher (whose name I can't remember) who was asked how to catch a knuckleball. He replied, "You wait for it to stop rolling then walk over and pick it up."
Bob Uecker
Great video & background music!👍
This Is A Great Mini Documentary !!..Hats Off To The Research Invested To Create This Masterpiece !!..
Young pitchers should at least have the knuckler in their arsenal. Every knuckleballer had a long career.
If it were that easy....
There’s no such thing. You’re either a knuckleball pitcher or you aren’t.
@@TheGodYouWishYouKnew You have to be able to throw more than 1 pitch to succeed in the show.
@@gerrypellissier9551 You’re either a knuckleball pitcher or you aren’t. A knuckleball isn’t part of a repertoire. This isn’t a video game.
@@TheGodYouWishYouKnew You like repeating yourself don't you ?
If analytics were truly stat based, then the knuckleball would have a valued place in the game today. I'm talking about innings, as in have a back of the rotation fifth starter who more often than not, could give his team a solid six, seven or more innings every fifth day. Thereby taking stress off the bullpen, lessening innings for those late inning flame throwers, while giving a big league team 35 starts and somewhere between 225 to 250 innings. Giving said team an actual statistically driven numerical advantage.
Unfortunately these calculator crazy, suit wearing, self important ego driven children can't see the forest for the tree's anymore. But then again the American education system has fallen apart, and baseball is merely evidencing this reality.
This was the Tim Wakefield role. He was a 4th/5th starter in the rotation and was usually able to give the whole bullpen a rest on a good day. Sometimes he'd get shelled, and pretty much he'd just stay in the game and keep throwing that knuckler. You didn't have to worry much that he'd start trying to force anything or hurt himself. A knuckleball is a knuckleball, and pretty much you always try to throw it down the middle of the plate, not too hard, and not too soft, and hope for the hitter to gas on it.
Watching Wakefield strike guys out from time to time on 67mph pitches was pretty great entertainment.
I sort of see the knuckleball as something players resort to when nothing else really works for them. There've been a handful of good knuckleballers like Wakefield and Dickey, but usually they're mid- to back-of-the-rotation guys. With their low K-rates and high BB and HR rates, these guys aren't typically going to be your ace (even with Dickey's Cy Young award, it was his only All-Star season, and Wakefield also only had one). You're generally sacrificing high-end performance for the benefit of being able to throw more innings while being serviceable at worst, good (but not great) at best. As far as prospects go, no great prospect is going to be a primary knuckleballer.
On the other hand, if you are having a hard time finding a reliable 4th or 5th starter and you don't have the bullpen depth to work with openers and long middle relievers, I don't see why you couldn't go with a knuckleballer. So I think it's mostly that nobody works on it at an early stage of development because it's utility is generally capped and everyone is striving to be the best. And with extended bullpens, innings-eating starters are less valuable than ever, while low K/high BB/high HR pitchers are not valuable in high leverage situations.
@@mrmacross You mentioned that players become knuckleball pitchers as last resorts for their careers but forgot to go in depth, like how Dickey failed as a normal pitcher and Wakefield as a position player
there have always been very few knuckleballers. analytics aren't keeping them out of baseball.
You're going to be REALLY disappointed if you ever bother to actually look up the stats posted by a guy like Wakefield, which do not support your assertions. Neither does the thought that going 6 innings per start is saving your bullpen. Even non-idiot managers will still go through at least two arms after that.
Great video Thank You
I am old enough that I got to see Phil Niekro (And Joe, too...although I also remember Brother Joe in his pre-knuckler days) in his prime, and also Hoyt Wilhelm toward the end of his career. (Also, being a Pirates fan, I used to watch a young Tim Wakefield, before his Red Sox days.) Niekro's ball would dart and break all over the place, while Wilhelm's would seem to flutter on the way in before it "decided" which way to break. They were effective back then, when making contact with the ball was something batter tried to do as much as possible.
Can you imagine how effective a good knuckleball pitcher would be now, when all that batters care about is launch angle and exit velocity, and actually making contact is considered a secondary skill? Let's face it, these days, an average of .235 is deemed acceptable if you hit 25 or more HR. If Niekro could have face these "Analytics Divas" his whole career, he might have broken Cy Young's record.
What used to blow my mind was that a few times a game, these guys would throw a ball that would break 2 or even 3 times on the way to the plate. (Not an optical illusion. Super slo-mo proved the existence of the phenomenon.) It was like they were playing the baseball game on the old Atari 2600, where you could control the ball with the joystick all the way into the batter.
I really think that what pretty much drove the knuckleballer out of existence was the utter incompetence of home plate umpires in calling balls and strikes.
Willie Stargell had one of the best descriptions of a knuckleball..."Throwing a knuckleball for a strike is like throwing a butterfly with hiccups across the street into your neighbor's mailbox." And Rick Monday said that Niekro's knuckler "actually giggles at you as it goes by."
Great video!!
I used to play with two pitchers who had good knuckleballs. The main issue is that no matter how good you are, there’s going to be those pitches that hang in the zone without dancing and guys will crush them because of the speed
Great video! Also, the music is awesome. What’s the piece?
The White Sox had 3 knuckleball pitchers on the staff at one time in the mid to late '60's; Eddie Fisher, Wilbur Wood, and Hoyt Wilhelm. Wilbur won 20+ games four years in a row and Hoyt is in the HOF. White Sox pretty much sucked, but loved watching these guys pitch and seeing the frustration of the opposing hitters. In this era of radar gun flash, a knuckleball is going to be a tough sell, but some player who has a mediocre fast ball and the dedication to master the knuckleball will show up on the scene and make some noise. I might be weird, but the knuckleball is what makes baseball the great sport that it is. Great video., thanks.
He’s coming soon
Yes, Tom Candiotti did play with the Dodgers but his best years were with the Cleveland Indians. I believe the Tribe at that time had Candiotti and Phil Niekro on the staff at the same time.
I'm trying to walk on with the Tulsa Drillers in AA ball with a knuckleball but it's difficult because people see it as a freak pitch. I even offered to buy my catcher an oversized glove to reduce passed balls and wild pitches.
Bobby Tiefenauer. Pitched between '52 and '68. Pitched for 6 teams, but I remember him for his stint with the Braves.
great video. i really enjoyed watching all the greats since 1960. wilhelm was my favorite.
I can still throw a great one at 52yrs old. Everyone hated me because no one-not even me- knew where the ball would go-but it's so awesome to watch. We nicknamed it the laughing pitch.
Wakefield is probably the most successful Knuckle ball pitcher in the last 20 years....He won double digit games 12 out of his 17 years with the Sox and was able to win 200 games which is pretty impressive considering he pitched in the modern era where starters have to throw quality starts in order to hold leads as they dont go deep into games any more. ...As a life long fan of the Sox I can say without a doubt he was the most reliable arm I have ever seen, he could come in on short rest or come out of the pen and on a side note kept a few catchers in the majors a little longer because of their ability to catch a knuckle ball. I would say that's another reason you dont see the pitch any more as most of them need their own personal catcher and unless they are really good it isn't worth the extra roster spot
When i played littled league i thought the knuckle ball was the greatest thing ever. I played right and 2nd base so never really got to pitch but one day we needed one inning so the coach out me in in the 7th. I had been practicing with my step dad for weeks just in case. I stood on the mound and just threw knuckles. I walked two then struck out 3 in a row. Inning over. One of my most favorite baseball playing memories.
I never pitched again but man it was fun.
Cool video. One thing to add in the video would be from the catchers perspective. You mentioned that the KB leads to many passed balls and wild pitches, which would be reasons why catchers would hate trying to catch them. It takes a certain type of player to catch a Knuckleballer.
It would take a lot of time for a KBer to develop the pitch as well as a catcher to get experience catching them.
I remember a lot of the knuckleballers had their 'specialist' catchers using larger than normal mitts.
Awesome synopsis. To this day, the pitcher I’ve seen start the most games I’ve attended is the late Tim Wakefield. I agree with your final analysis on the pitch. In the era of predictability nobody wants a feature pitch that you have to live and die with. If the wind was blowing in his face, Wake could easily K 12 batters in a start. If conditions weren’t right, he’d throw batting practice. It’s also incredibly hard to catch and a lot of catchers hate doing it. Wake always had a special catcher (Doug Mirabelli being the most famous.) Jason Varitek once likened it to “catching a butterfly with a tire.”
In one of his books Roger Angell devoted a chapter to the physics of the knuckleball. Great reading
Matt Waldron is in AAA. Relatively young and throws one. Will be interesting to see what happens
This was a great video. Tim Wakefield belongs In The Hall Of Fame. You must do one about the Screwball. I think Fernando Valenzuela was the last one to throw them back in the '80's... ⚾
Brewers pitcher Devin Williams has one today. It is f**king nasty too. Complete filth. He throws 3 pitches. A 4 seam, a cutter and a screwball. And the screwball is the primary.