Greg Maddux’s 76-pitch complete game is FAKE | Baseball Bits
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2022
- PATREON: / foolishbaseball
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Greg Maddux. That's the legendary player finally making his Baseball Bits debut. The Greg Maddux 76 pitch complete game (or was it the 77 pitch complete game) is somewhat of a legend. It's up to me to separate fact from fiction. Along the way, we make note of how some of Maddux's best features have been exaggerated over the years since his retirement, particularly his Greg Maddux velocity and Greg Maddux strikeouts. We'll also debunk the Greg Maddux 3-0 count stat.
Just be to clear, I love and appreciate all things Greg Maddux. It might seem like I'm being a stickler here, but it's all in the name of accurately describing his legacy. That includes an accurate pitch count from the Greg Maddux July 22 1997 vs Cubs game, as well as heaps of praise for his Greg Maddux defense, value be darned.
A lot of the video is focused on the Greg Maddux Braves years, but I tried to sneak in clips from his tenures with his other clubs as well. The Cubs in particular had Maddux for nearly as long as the Braves, even if Atlanta ultimately had him for his absolute peak.
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Full game broadcast: • Braves vs Cubs (7-22-1...
Box Score: www.baseball-reference.com/bo...
J.J Cooper on fastball velocity: www.baseballamerica.com/stori...
Soundtrack from Maxo:
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you have some explaining to do
🤦🏼♂️
Time to update the title
@@that2kkid125 they did
you just got bailey’d
"We've changed baseball history in the most minuscule of ways" is the perfect way to describe this channel
That's all I've ever wanted
@@FoolishBaseball You did maybe get Larry Walker into the hall of fame tho
@@FoolishBaseball We've reached the point where youtubers like you have a measurable impact on the sport, in my mind for the better.
This is like when Jon Bois changed college basketball history in the most minuscule of ways when he said that Troy State vs Devry had the wrong score
@@armadillolover99 I love that the only reason Jon was able to make that video was because of that one handheld video of the game (maybe captured from the ventilation system)
This is cool and all, but I threw a 59 pitch complete game in backyard wiffleball last week, and I don’t see a baseball bits about me!
I threw a 27 pitch game against Greg Maddux
I threw a wiffle ball perfect game yesterday, but I haven’t heard a single person talking about my accomplishment!
I struck out 3 batters on one pitch like bugs bunny
Did you upload the VHS?
@@zombiehorsefranzferdinand9304 lmao
This video helped me realize just how good Maddux was at getting into fielding position as he finished his pitch. He was perfectly balanced by doing that little "hop" at the end.
Up to at least the 1960s, pitchers were EXPECTED to finish their deliveries in the kind of position Maddux did.
The interesting thing to me is how many hit the ball back to the mound in this game.
i was taught that in 7th grade when i started pitching and contunued this motion through high school. they called me the cat on the bump
when I was a kid, I was lucky enough to get to meet and talk to Maddux for about 30 minutes - back in his prime. He said "you can't worry about what you can't control. once the ball leaves your hand, the only other thing you can control is getting in position to field it. As long as I do those two things as good as I can, I don't really let myself worry about the rest."
Balanced with his shoulders square to the plate. This was by design and is indicative of Mad Dogs competitiveness and attention to detail. You knew Maddux was on by how many ground outs he was getting. Which were caused, of course, by the late movement. If you are going to be the greatest ground out pitcher of all time then it only makes sense to also be the greatest fielding pitcher of all time. Right? Easier said then done but that is exactly who he was. Side note: he was also, according to the players, the most knowledgeable pitcher of his time. They said he was like an encyclopedia when it came to the information he held in his mind about every hitter.
Nice thought in hindsight I can see his hockey skills in his body positioning
As a guy who couldn't throw a ball accurately to the catcher from the mound, but could from the outfield, "Just Throw Strikes" really brings back some frustrating memories LOL
Are you Rick Ankiel?
I truly sympathize with you entirely - same here. After I 'retired' from slow pitch in my 40s, a close friend and teammate pointed out to me, in ten years of softball I had never once overthrown the infielder.
I didn't have the strongest arm in the world (one of my teammates did: I took a throw from him once at second base, and it *hurt*) but I had good form and I was accurate. Had a few really outstanding throws. That was a great compliment to get, though.
Can I have your autogrpah, Rick "Bootygrease" Ankiel??
This was me as well. Center field wall to catcher right in the middle of the strike zone? Yup. Batter a convenient target from the mound? Also yup.
I was that kid too, I had the best arm in the outfield so naturally I signed up when one of our pitchers in little league went down and the coach asked for volunteers to try out.
Every fifth pitch I threw would’ve hit a batter if there was one standing in the box. And it was so weird because I could make a perfect throw from deep center (I played the corners but the center fielder usually let me have every ball if he knew I was close enough to get it and a throw needed to be made) and I *always* hit the cutoff on the fly right to the chest
Wasn't expecting a baseball bits today. Perfect Sunday in the making
I wanted to get it out on Saturday, but good things to come to those who wait
@@FoolishBaseball very inconsiderate of you, this is the lord’s day. i can’t believe your gaul smh. anyway, that’ll make it a 4-0 ballgame
Goes great with the morning coffee!
@@virtsie I don’t think I’ll be putting on a UA-cam video again
@@FoolishBaseball I didn’t wait and it still came
Maddux could have been a fireballer, as his fastball could touch the 95-96 range, but he quickly figured out after he got called up that he could get guys out without blowing his shoulder and elbow out with every start. He also simplified his delivery which allowed him to come to perfect defensive position. He was as close to flawless as a pitcher could get.
That's a nice little myth, but in reality, Maddux threw 93-94 early in his career throwing his 4 seamer and then...just as he aged, he lost velocity and also went to a 2 seamer. That's all. It wasn't a conscious decision to throw softer..
Edit;;;;
Actually...now that I've watched this video, they LITERALLY touch on this. He threw harder than average. He'd be on par with Brandon Woodruff in today's game in terms of strikeout rate, a guy who throws regularly in the upper 90s and has 3 plus pitching.
And he threw harder than average for pitchers who pitched 10 YEARS later.
And flawless base running as well. Mad Dog was athletically gifted ua-cam.com/video/S3ZeCdamb4I/v-deo.html
This is a pitching how-to video...
@@bigjeep127 🤣
Maddox finds himself listed in all the categories with all the greatest. Other's may have gualdy numbers in a few stats. Maddox is listed in top 10 in almost all.
I got to catch a bunch of bullpens for both Greg and Mike Maddux in the early 90's (Las Vegas)...The first time I caught Greg Maddux I missed the ball and was hit directly in the shoulder and chest.... several times... I was a soon to be College catcher and was Pretty good but I had never seen a ball move like that, I still have never seen a ball like that.
yeah, his ball was something special. the movement he got, and how late those pitches broke was sureal. I swear, most pitcher's curve looks like a slightly angular pitch, that slightly moves right to left (for a right handed pitcher), more up and down then left and right. Maddox however, all of his pitches looked like a f-ing 2 finger fastball for the first 45 feet from his hand, then they'd start to dive or swerve sharply. It was some surreal stuff to watch. cool how you got to "try" to catch his stuff. that must be one of those memories that just sticks with you.
Liar
“So many guys these days just throw hard and have no idea where it’s going. I just wish more people learned from Maddux. You don’t need to throw hard, you can just have the best command in the history of the game instead” - way too many people
Velocity can be trained. Go get some plyoballs and get to work. What Maddux did? That's a lot harder.
@@FoolishBaseball oh I agree, which is why telling people to do that as if it’s a simple choice between one or the other (like some coaches and armchair coaches do) is ridiculous
Not only the best command in the history of the game, but some of the filthiest movement on all of your pitches in the history of the game. Shocking more pitchers don't go this route instead of the comparatively easy task of adding a few ticks to their fastball.
Slowing down arm speed to get movement and pitching to contact are not taught anymore
@@chadjzyk7136 slowing down arm speed doesn’t increase movement at all, spin rate/efficiency/angle cause perceived movement and that gets hurt by slower arm speed, not helped
I automatically believed the title because I don’t have any sense to think by myself
Now I can watch the previous baseball bits until the next one comes out :)
acknowledging is the first step
@@FoolishBaseball thanks baseball
🤣🤣🤣 Don't feel bad about it. Embrace it.
I am a follower of the religion of Foolish Baseball, he is our Messiah
3:24 - That’s still one of the best Defensive Plays I’ve ever seen.
The fact that Maddux was one of _Greatest Pitchers in the History of Baseball…_ AND one of the _Greatest Defensive Players in the History of Baseball..._ it’s just insane.
The guy was incredible.
Maddux was so good at hitting his spots, once he figured out the strike zone umps were callin it was just awesome to watch. I am lucky to have been able to watch him pitch. Met him once got his autograph.
I wonder who will play you in the movie about his life.
@@ChauncyCharm LMFAO. Definitely Dave Franco.
Vegas baby
Maddux is easily top 10 pitcher ever.
@@ChauncyCharm Not you, batty boy.
Anyone who watched Maddux play knows exactly why he has all the assists, put-outs, and Gold Gloves. Yeah, he pitched to soft contact, but watch highlight compilations of his defense. Maddux got to balls that 99% of pitchers don’t even attempt it.
Maddux was a sick athlete. I wish we had more pitchers who still knew how to field their position. Nowadays, any comebacker and there’s a 50-50 chance it’s booted or thrown away.
His cutter and screw ball dipped which led to feeble groundouts.
Maddux squared up and anticipated contact after every pitch. Most major league pitchers don't do that today. Back in the 50s even little leaguer pitchers like me were taught to do that, maybe because of the line drive that ended Herb Score's career.
@@chrisdunfield513 Agreed. Bob Gibson was a flame thrower, but he stayed squared up to the batter. Jim Kaat was a master at this.
@@Chasstful Bob Gibson threw so violently that his followthrough dragged him halfway to first base.
@@qfmarsh64 You're right but halfway to first is an exaggeration, but he still stayed square to the hitter as much as possible and in position to field, hence his 9 gold gloves. He was also quick as a cat
Eric Gregg's zone was just ridiculous back then. I still remember that Marlins playoff game.
And this was the same year!
You could tell someone just wanted to get the game over with quick because he had plans that night 😂
Eric Gregg is a legend. He brought the little league strike zone to MLB. Not many umpires can say the same!
Livan could have sat in a lawnchair and struck out 10
And guess who was starting in that infamous game for the Braves? Greg Maddux
Immediately popped over to Baseball Reference to remind myself of the greatness of Maddux and we need to talk about his '95 season. He went 19-2 over 28 starts and gave up 38 runs in total (37 earned) for the season. That's a 1.63 ERA boys and girls. He also had a 1.56 ERA in the strike shortened season of '94. Second only to Doc Gooden in '85 in the modern era.
Based on the way MLB defines the modern era, he's behind Bob Gibson (1.12) and Walter Johnson (1.14) as well.
@@karlroveyThat would be lovely if MLB didn't alter the rules to shorten the mound and shrink the strike zone to try and give batters more of an edge against pitchers like Gibson
and yet he wasn't a unanimous first ballot hall of famer lol. I'd like to meet the idiots with a vote that saw his career and were..." Yeah...sorry not quite good enough". What makes his stats and what he did more insane is he had better numbers than most of the all time greats mentioned before him yet he did it pitching to far, far better players at a time when half of them were juicing on top of it. If every pitcher could through 2-seamer that moved half as much as his did baseball would be much more boring offensively. I think the fact that he came out of the dugout looking like a substitute history teacher confused a lot of people.
Yeah and he wasn't pumped full of an entire signing bonus worth of blow like Doc
Maddux was the best pitcher ever and the era he played was by far the most entertaining. Man, the Braves in 90s were heartbreaking and fun. Thankful that I got to witness it
As a kid in Boston in the 90s I watched Braves daily instead of Red Sox. Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, Javy Lopez, Andres Gallaraga, Ryan Klesko, Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux. Fun viewing.
Not close to the best ever.
@@richardmcdonald6237 Who do you vote to be the best pitcher EVER? And who are your list of pichers between that best guy and Greg Maddox? "Not close" is a bold statement. I'm sure you were exaggerating. If Maddux is not the best ever, hes certainly "close"
He must be a candy ass Yankee fan👆
The "heartbreaking" part was exactly why it was so fun. They weren't much for power anywhere, but we're so gosh darn consistent in winning anyway. Their lack of power on the mound or at the plate is probably why they only won a single WS in that incredible decade-and-a-half run.
I don't care what anyone says. They qualified for FIFTEEN playoffs. Not 14.
The strike zone he was given on the outside corner was pretty huge however those 20 ground ball starts were a crazy stat
This was the year of the Eric Gregg NLCS game.
@@FoolishBaseball Which was literally the last playoff game he umpired.
Yeah as a Mets fan I absolutely hated the enormous strike zone Maddux and Glavine would get. Just obnoxious. So glad they tightened that crap up. It was embarrassing
There's an except of an interview with I think Leo Mazzone in The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers that talks about how he taught Braves pitchers to exploit umpires' strike zones by painting the corners and then "expanding" the zone, so they were able to get strike calls off the plate from umpires even with tight zones and it forced hitters to be more aggressive.
Little league world series strike zone lol
THIS HAS BEEN A CERTIFIED 90'S STRIKEZONE MOMENT!
🤣🤣🤣
I loved that part. Sadly having to experience it back then it was just called the Maddox strike zone 😂. And I hated it lol
FTW! I think that's why I find it difficult to watch MLB currently and not complain... "where was that!?"
Love seeing some solid Maddux content. He was my baseball hero growing up and I was able to ride copying his style all the way into junior college ball. Thank you!
My favorite pitcher of the 90s. He did in fact pitch to contact, weak contact. That was his makeup. His "2 seamer" was actually more of a screw ball breaking down and away to LHs. Both the screw ball and little cutter seemed to dip at the end, hence abundant groundouts
the main thing i learned today was how terrible umps were at calling strikes in the 90’s
Oh boy am I glad those days are over
If you'd like more Eric Gregg, check out his strike zone in the 1997 playoffs where every single pitch outside to lefties was a strike, regardless of how many FEET it was off the zone
And nowadays millions of fans go apoplectic when an umpire misses a call within a ball width of the plate. What a time to be alive.
Mainly Eric Gregg. Helped the Marlins get to the ‘97 World Series.
To be fair, the camera is offset to the right which helps viewers see pitch movement, but the strike zone looks skewed.
I'm tired, so I totally read and heard "perfect game" and quickly became very confused.
Great video. I was def the noodle-armed kid that my Old Man knew would make it the majors.
Also, there were _so many_ certified 90s strike zone calls.
Maddux himself said he'd never throw a no-hitter because he was in the zone too much -- and he was right. Part of Maddux's power is that he had a complete and total understanding of who he was a pitcher. He never tried to be anyone else.
@@FoolishBaseball well put, by both him and you. I love seeing the evolution and devolution of the game.
i have to say that these videos are truly one of a kind, there is nothing like rewatching every baseball bits and still enjoying every second of every video. The stats, the jokes the questions before the video and completely agreeing after. These videos are first ballot, fWAR says so:)
Ok, the post-it notes on the HOF plaques almost made me spit out my coffee. Absolutely hilarious and the reason I love this channel.
My biggest takeaway? I miss the pitchers hitting.
Maddux hit 2 career homeruns, one off Kevin Brown when Brown was mowing down the league.
I don't, it was usually 3 line drives to the catcher, although it was a great time for a beer run if the pitcher came up with 2 outs.
Slipped in the 80-grade LA Noire theme music like we wouldn’t notice, but we did
i just checked Greg's wiki page, it states he threw a 77 pitch complete game.
This being the golden age of baseball for me…watching him pitch was such a joy. He threw where he want to throw and mesmerized batters.
Yeah...but who was the better post-season pitcher, Maddux or Smoltz?
Because Jim Smoltz was the power pitcher who dominated in the post-season. Maddux finesse style pitching didn't work nearly as well with the hitters more locked in and the umps only giving the Braves 4 inches off the outside corner, not 6...
I loved that era. I was 10 years old that year and I was a White Sox fan but watched a lot of Braves baseball because they were always on TBS.
Glavin too
@@scourge8097 Maddox World Series ERA 2.12. John Smoltz 2.5 Nuff said!
@@kerrythomas6220Greg Maddux most career wins by a righthanded pitcher since the start of the live ball era ( 1920 ) Warren Spahn most wins by a lefty since the live ball era ( 363, 355 )
I can watch Maddux pitch all day. He was an artist.
I'd pay to watch him throw batting practice right now. Probably saw 40 or so of his starts in person back in the day.
Yeah, I’m a Phillies fan so I despised the Braves. Greg Maddux was my favorite player in MLB. That says a lot about the kind of pitcher he was.
I want to see a 27 pitch complete game. All 27 batters swing at the first pitch and fly out.
With today's rules you could have a zero-pitch complete game. Wave every batter to first base and then pick them all off.
@@pjabrony8280
Wouldn't that be a 0 pitch no hitter instead, with 27 walks?
@@AJKPenguin It would be both.
For Maddux it would have been 27 groundouts and then after he would be like "I can go ahead and pitch tomorrow too Bobby"
As a Little League coach I have always maintained that throwing strikes and hitting your spots is more important than how fast you can throw. If you can hit your spots and change speeds you will be a good pitcher. I had a pitcher once who I swear could throw strikes 90% of the time, many of his starts were pretty quick games. My son learned to change speeds and was a very successful pitcher. Coaching Little League is fun when you have players that listen and are willing to let you coach them.
I remember watching this game live on TBS and I subsequently misremembered the pitch count too. All I can say with confidence is it is the most masterful performance by a starting pitcher I have seen to this day.
This is a certified Mark Wohlers warm-up moment.
I see him tossing that ball. He knows he's not going in.
@@FoolishBaseball the most tedious part of being a reliever is being told to warm up when you know there’s is absolutely no chance in hell you’re going into the game
The mystery we've all been trying to get to the bottom of, finally. Thank you for uncovering this disgusting pitch-shaving scheme by MLB.
They're doing it to make the noble relief pitchers look bad! This conspiracy goes all the way to the top!
hey an actual pro.
It's amazing how many errors there are still just from the 90s. An era where we had computers to record this down
Great video! Though it triggered me into remembering what I hated about 90s baseball. The comical outside pitch, sometimes many inches off the plate, that were called strikes. And it was reputation based. So established pitchers like Maddux constantly got that called strike, while non-stars were less likely to. It was maddening watching my team play the Braves as Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz would “paint” the outside corner and get dubious called strike after dubious called strike.
This video alone, there were 4 or so examples of this, and we saw less than 40 pitches!
Absolutely correct!!
@Joshua Luke I’m aware that the video angle can be deceiving and that pitches from rightys to the left side of the plate come from an angle which may break the plane of the plate. I take that into account when judging these bad calls. Whether an ump is fooled by good catcher framing or consistently hitting the glove doesn’t change the fact a ball was called a strike.
So here’s a breakdown from this video:
Clearly not strikes:
5:45 pitch 33
12:20 pitch 66
13:06 pitch 70
13:19 pitch 72
These were egregious called strikes and was commonplace in the 90s.
Dubious called strikes
6:02 pitch 37
8:09 pitch 43
These were borderline and can be attributed to the difficulty of being an umpire. But the first 4, there are no excuses, just bad calls
Making a video correcting a record that has gone down wrong in history is the next step in becoming Jon Bois
the fact someone from Wikipedia edited the article to basically say "stop editing the Troy State, DeVry game. Just cause Jon says its wrong isnt enough proof" is hilarious
@@SadMarinersFan Jon Bois: watches an entire, obscure game, and tallies the fall of every sparrow.
Some wiki nerd: NUH UHHHH
@@stevenhetzel6483 a niche sport nerd vs Wiki loner user who can't get life straight. Let's pick who wins.
What's the another step after that?
Wikipedia relies on official sources, and therefore must take the NCAA at its word until it itself admits it was wrong. The game article has a separate section noting the Bois video as evidence of a miscount, but that's basically as much as the site can do without breaking policy.
I love every episode of your show dude, particularly the ones where you focus on 19th century players....I can't tell you how many times I've replayed those episodes. Do more please, I LOVE the history of Baseball....
There will never be another Greg Maddux. His speed changes and location are some the best we'll ever see. Added to over 300 wins and 5000 innings pitched. He's was unbelievable
Tremendous movement and pinpoint control are unusual combined traits. Maddux had it, and he knew how to pitch every batter. He had a memory like an elephant.
💯👏🏼
I used to watch a ton of Braves games on TBS as a kid. They always televised darn near 100 games. Maddux to me was appointment viewing as a kid. Watching him paint then and now is truly a masterpiece. One of my favorite pitchers from the golden era of Baseball
same here, it was a treat to watch Maddux and Chipper and Andruw Jones damn near everyday.
Same. They were so good then. 3 hof pitchers. Hof 3rd baseman. Should be hof first baseman. A borderline hof centerfielder. Very good roleplayers. They played good defense, along with all their pitchers being decent hitters. They were masters at the sac bunt.
Great video as usual Foolish. Love how you dug into the stats and double checked them. Fastidious and entertaining and always. Love the 90s strike zone bit!
Thank you!
I'm so freaking happy that you made a Maddog video!
All superlatives have already been stated as it pertains to this legend, so I'll just say that he took the craft of pitching to a fine art.
Great video. I spent many years as a Cubs fan wondering what could have been had we kept ahold of Maddux his entire career. He was the best of his generation, for sure, if not the GOAT.
As a fellow Cubs fan...I completely agree.
what happened is he would have retired ringless
Here's my favorite Maddux stat: The most consecutive 15+ win seasons in MLB history. (16 of em!) I was at the game he did it, too! :)
it's kind of amazing how much strikeouts have gone up despite the dramatically smaller zone
Probably cuz people are swinging for the fences?
Analytics changed the game. Instead of getting players who simply get on base no matter how, they get guys with power who can’t read a curveball from a fastball and strikeout because of it. Jose Ramirez is a perfect example of patience at the plate and is the most overlooked great player today
@@bradleyweaver2521 yeah man totally, the 90s were known for caring about OBP and not power
@@funnymankenny I’m not saying that the 90s weren’t about power. Power is a big part of the game and I am not discounting that at all. But who is the last great power threat you know of that had a .300+ batting average, .400+ OBP and smack 35+ HR effortlessly
@@bradleyweaver2521 Mike Trout
I live in Las Vegas and I got to play at "Greg Maddux Field" at Valley High School about 8 games total throughout high school. It was an honor to play on the same field where Greg Maddux played when he was a kid too. Greg Maddux, Jon Smotlz, Tom Glavine, Chipper Jones, Andrew Jones, Rafael Furcal, Marcus Giles, Javy Lopez, Franceour, McCann and those couple years we had Gary Sheffield., nothing can beat watching all those guys day in and day out on TBS throughout my childhood. GO BRAVES!!!! Been a dynasty since the mid 90's!
“In the most minuscule of ways” is an accurate description for each of these “discrepancies”
As a former pitcher, Maddux starts when they were on TV were must watch. This was also a must watch youtube vid. Thanks!
5:44 Maddox is a legendary pitcher, and this is agregious example, but it has always been my opinion Maddox got more called strikes on pitches out of the strike zone than any other pitcher.
Movement was fooling the umps too
When you have the reputation of being able to pitch a ball exactly where you want it I could see umpires giving you the benefit of the doubt. They see a ball that might have just clipped the zone from someone with bad control they probably think it was a ball. They see that same ball from Maddux and well Maddux doesn't miss it must be a strike.
Talked about this a bit in my umpire video. The effective strike zone shrunk considerably when MLB implemented their first umpire tracking system. Tom Glavine in particular had bad numbers in ballparks that had QuestTec.
Maddux's pitching reminds me of Jon Lester's approach (and probably a lot of pitchers from the 80s/90s/past). Catcher sets up outside and he pitches either on the edge of the strikezone or out of the strikezone.
I suspect that if the umpires had started calling a tighter strike zone, Greg would have had no trouble hitting those new locations.
I was there! It was great and memorable largely due to the reaction of the Cubs fans. Remember Maddux was previously a Cub. The only bad part of the day was that my girlfriend made us leave halfway through the second game. I really wanted to do a whole doubleheader at Wrigley, especially given that the first game was so ridiculously quick. She was lame.
Man if you can sit through a doubleheader and you're not a player on one of the teams I would reconsider who you're calling lame.
@@mattgoss3060 You see Matt, the first game was historically brief. So it was an opportunity to sit through a doubleheader without the normal length. If you like baseball (a different game in the 1990s), you would be happy to see two games for the price of one. Especially on a beautiful day at an all-time ballpark.
She wanted to see if you'd tell her 'No, I'm staying. You can go if you want.'
@@hhhbkid Ha! If the whole trip wasn'rtorganized by her I would have pushed it.
Always in need of more Maddux AND Foolish Baseball content, so this was a nice two-fer.
Greg Maddux secretly had one of the greatest pitching peaks of all time. There are precisely three pitchers since 1900 who maintained an ERA+ over 200/ERA- under 50 for a period of four consecutive qualifying seasons: Maddux, Walter Johnson, and Pedro Martinez. Expand that to seven seasons, and two pitchers had an ERA+ over 180/ERA- under 55: Maddux and Johnson. Sort by FIP-, and the only ones to keep it under 60 for four straight full seasons are Maddux, Martinez, and Randy Johnson; and at seven straight, the only one under 65 is once again Maddux.
I'm not sure how much of a secret it is. He won four straight Cy Young awards lol
@@richardtheconquerer Fair point. I just wanted to establish how great it was in a historical context and not just confined to that period of time.
Hmmmm, I wonder how Koufax stands up for those last 5-6 years of his career.
@@rjpg he never had a season with an ERA+ over 200. Had two over 180.
I'm not familiar with ERA- so that part I couldn't tell you
@@rjpg Glad you asked! Koufax had a 172 ERA+ and 58 ERA- during his standout 1963-66 period, both of which put him at ninth all time among the list of four-year peaks. One bit of additional context I'd like to provide is that the gap between him and tenth place (Ed Walsh) is as big as the gap between tenth and eighteenth; in other words, Koufax is the cutoff point where peaks for adjusted ERA go from being elite to *absurd*. His four-year peak was so good that even when you widen the scope to seven years he still falls within the top 20.
In terms of FIP-, Koufax was a relatively more common 65 for four years (tied for tenth) and 68 for seven (still tied for tenth, interestingly enough, meaning he still had a good FIP before this translated to his ERA plummeting).
"How will this affect Greg Maddux's legacy" is one of your all time lines
I'm sure Maddux's legacy is solid and in tact. You think the MLB is going to reverse anything based on this insignificant channel's conclusions?
@@Tom_H327 yes.
@@imthepopcornman oh my. 😂
I fully believe that Greg Maddux would succeed in the modern game, but mainly because I believe he is a chameleon completely capable of re-inventing himself as needed to meet the challenges of whatever era he pitched in. But this particular style of pitching probably doesn't work with modern strike zones and and modern hitter approaches with greater emphasis on launch angle.
90 is still fast, but what he did best was change velocities and keep batters guessing at what he was going to throw. It made their timing late or early. Probably why a lot of people were hitting it back to him too or places he could make plays on. They weren't getting great contact.
I remember someone referencing the "Immaculate Inning" to Maddux (3 K's on 9 pitches) and his reply was akin to "No. An Immaculate Inning is 3 outs on 3 pitches." I would agree with him.
Eh not putting the ball in play is much better, the Dwight gooden is always sick
I'd say the 3 pitch inning is equally as impressive as 3 Ks on 9 pitches but for different reasons. One fools the batter into swinging into a first pitch swing resulting in either 3 outs or a hit/HBP and a double play.
3 outs on 3 pitches isn’t nearly as impressive as 3 ks on 9 pitches. I threw a 3 pitch inning in high school and the first batter hit a single. Second batter hit into a DP and the third popped out to third base. All three batters hit the ball in play. A very quick inning, yes, but I didn’t fool 3 batters into striking out on 9 pitches.
i prefer coming in to relieve a bases loaded situation, throwing 1 pitch for an inning-ending triple play. 1 pitch, 3 outs.
@@CalebShimomura I thought Keiichi Yabu pulled that off, but apparently there were only two on. I did watch it live, though
My favorite P of all time. I remember watching this game thanks to EVERYONE having TBS.
This video absolutely rules.
On a completely unrelated note, Greg Maddux is my favorite baseball player ever.
Since the braves were on TBS all the time in the 90's, I watched many Braves games. Maddux was incredible.
One of the reasons I’m a Braves fan is from watching Greg paint corners.. what a masterpiece! The other is watching chipper hit over .300 from both sides!!
same i grew up in that era...my first ball cap was a braves hat even though i grew up in california and been here all my life...2 once in a generation talents right there. Ill never forget the 96-world series, i was 4 but it was the first time i ever wanted a team to win and learned of heartbreak....i thought the braves were the gold standard in the 90s i was also a big fan of the mariners too as a kid with jr, a rod and johnson. I copied his wind up and ready position
Foolish Baseball and Greg Maddux, the video we’ve been waiting for
I eagerly await his response
@@FoolishBaseball How much would you freak out if he did?
Just found your channel today. Fantastic, its pure youtube goodness. Snark, good baseball, good commentary, thanks =D
I love these videos so much I can tell how much work you put into these
I've thrown a 0 pitch complete game.
Get on my level Maddux
I normally wouldn't believe it, but I believe Davis Mills can do anything.
@@FoolishBaseball Davis Mills has never allowed a hit, run, walk, or even a batted ball in his MLB career
Not going to lie, I always loved when Eric Gregg was behind the plate. Players knew his strikezone was huge and would be swinging the bat, which made for a more exciting and fast moving game. No four hour games with him behind the plate. That NLCS game with Livan Hernandez though... That was rough.
My sister’s husband’s accountant was friends with Eric Gregg’s mother’s accountant. Said he was a real tool but after reading this I’m undecided.
Had to pause to comment that your taste in music is phenomenal. The 16 bit stuff is great, but the compositions are next level. Fantastic
I watched Maddux pitch live many times, I've seen it on TV, I've seen these videos, and yet, every time I come back and watch another video I'm never not amazed by the insane movement on his pitches. GOAT.
"A certified 90s strike zone moment" 🤣🤣🤣 I'm dead LMAO 🤣
I grew up watching Maddux and this video still gave me a greater perspective and understanding of how great Mad Dog really was.
Glad to see this wasn't super backlogged and you are actually actively working on these. That Noah game was just a week or two ago.
Maddux was my favorite pitching growing up....he made everything looked so easy and effortless. Loved the video!
I remember watching this game from the west coast as an 11 year old. An amazing one. Beyond the pitch count (or maybe as a result of it) I recall how quick the game was. Maddux was a wizard.
Always a pleasure watching a master at work. Maddux’s control was ridonkulous! One of the top 5 pitchers in MLB’s 140+ year history. Easy.
i really liked this video, and i know you've done a bonds video already, but it would be super interesting to watch a video from you about bonds in 01-04 in a similar style to this one, focusing on his rhythm as a player. would be crazy to see for people like me who never got to see him and have only understood him through a statsheet!
thank you for this - Maddux is my all time favorite player, and I definitely watched more of his starts than I've watched of anyone else's, both on tv and at the park. I'd pay to watch him throw batting practice.
I wasn't a die hard braves fan in the 90's, though I rooted for them due to the Red Sox usually not appearing in October. That rotation made for some good watching...but whenever I saw Maddux I knew the braves were probably gonna win. Hard to think of someone better at being so casually dominant.
degrom
@@gabrielleinweber1763 cant stay healthy
@@madducks4794 ok? doesnt mean hes not dominant
@@gabrielleinweber1763 Degroom isn't more dominant in any aspect of the game that counts. He throws harder.... and that's it.
Maddux is seriously my pick for the greatest pitcher of my lifetime. That includes guys like Clemens, Randy Johnson, King Felix, Kershaw, Halladay, Verlander, Scherzer, Pedro Martinez, and DeGrom even. He really redefined what pitching even was. The fact he could seemingly get everyone to hit soft grounders directly back to him for easy outs was incredible. There's a reason he won 18 gold gloves. He also just had the nastiest pitches that seemed completely unhittable. He really wasn't just a groundball pitcher either, the guy had 3,371 strikeouts. His changeup is possibly the most disgusting pitch of all time and it made batters look incompetent. He was absolutely one of kind and there was no one before and after him that was anything like him really.
I'd suspect Jamie Moyer had some similarly nasty stuff just to be able to last that long with an 85 mph sinker even back in his mid-20s as being a lefty might allow one to get away with a bit less velocity, but throwing 80 in the Steroid Era you'd think would be a fast way to a 6 ERA. Instead Moyer was in the top 10 in Cy Young voting with both excellent W-L, ERA, and if you used today's stuff you'd still vote for him because the advanced metrics for WAR like the very low total HRs and walks.
Edit: The difference is Moyer probably would have gotten 5th place votes in 1997 and 1998 for example but still never in any season finished above 4th if using advanced metrics given the combined W-L and advanced metrics mindset.
@@Eibarwoman Moyer had an absolutely excellent cutter and a mean changeup himself. He was really just consistently solid for a good 20 years which is incredible for a pitcher in any era. He doesn't have the crazy numbers that other guys from his era like Randy Johnson, Maddux, and Clemens had but his longevity was super impressive. There was a reason he just kept getting signed by teams over and over. Like even late in his career he was a solid 3 or 4 piece in your rotation.
I'm a mets fan, but i think Degrom is getting over rated. If you can't stay healthy it honestly skews your rating a bit. Degroms will be lucky if he manages to pitch in half the amount of games Maddux has.
@@eggoslayer1001 Randy Johnson is the greatest starting pitcher of all time. Yes...above Maddux...here's why. Maddux pitched his entire career in the NL. That's an entire career of avoiding DH's. It is just so much easier to pitch in the NL. Walking 8 hitters to face pitchers is never an option in the AL. Randy Johnson was 35yrs old when he got traded to the NL, and he rolled out 4 straight CY Young records, came a strikeout away from the single season record, and had 4 straight seasons of over 330+ strikeouts. If Randy spent his whole career in the NL, his career would be more reminiscent of his 1st 4 years in Arizona. However, even factoring in Johnson's AL years. Collectively he has 5 Cy Youngs, 3 other times finished 2nd on the ballot, and 3rd one other time. 7th another time if you want to acknowledge another great season. They started out at around the same time, but while Maddux was losing steam at around 37, Randy Johnson pitched till he was 46yrs old, Maddux pitched till he was 42, but Randy had better seasons in his later years. Ithink when you factor in league and durability. The edge goes to Randy Johnson.
@@eggoslayer1001 I want to add that factoring leagues, I even put Pedro over Maddux.
Maddux has been my all-time favorite pitcher since I first became a baseball fan when he was in his prime. Hearing all of the numbers behind his dominance was so fun. Great vid. 😁
Idk how you make such interesting videos over and over. Legendary
With all the hype that there is in modern baseball we should always remember to tip our hats to the truly gifted and phenomenal athletes of past decades. Maddux is just one of those people who stand out.
Great stuff as always, Bailey. Would love a video on Bret Saberhagen who makes a brief cameo @11:44 with a ridiculous 11 K/BB ratio . Someone must"ve been really dealing that year to win the CYA over ol' Bret!
*(checks bbref)*
Oh, yeah, no. That makes sense.
😆
I just saw the title of the video and my heart leapt for joy! I don’t know if it was pure coincidence or what, but I recommended a Maddux video on the previous upload and here it is! I am so excited!!!
First video of yours I’ve seen. I’m downright impressed!
Sandberg was my favorite player. Solid hitter, decent power, and a great glove. I didn't even play second and respected what he did in the infield. The infield is harder than the outfield where I played in some ways.
Decent Power? He led the league in Homers with 40. He had pop that hasn't been seen, in a second baseman, since prime Joe Morgan......No second baseman in the 80s could put a charge like Ryno!!!
@@Strotophonic I agree. For a second baseman he had great power and could hit homeruns, but he only had one season where he hit 40 homeruns, and the rest were in the middle of what I would call a power hitter. He was more known for being able to hit the ball and great defense. He had almost a .300 career average for hitting.
@@ericbogar9665 I see your point, but from 1989-92 he it 30, 40, 26 and 26.......back then it was Apocalyptic Power..........Second Basemen used to hit 10-15HRs in that period of time. Ryno was off charts.......in that respect.
Finally, a Maddux centric video. Thanks baseball guy!
Maddux was my favorite. One of the best I ever saw. My second game I ever went to, he tossed a CG shutout against the Expos in May of 1994. The third game I ever went to was against the Padres, same year. Maddux went eight and slightly outdueled Andy Benes who had a no-hitter through 5 2/3 innings.
Bro, this was the best edited video I have seen in a while. Maybe it’s because I’m a lifetime Braves fan. Nah, it’s just an awesome video. I appreciate the hard work.
Greg must have been a reliable driver. I mean, you know he's never gonna let you walk.
This comment is as underrated as my designated driver.
The Braves were known for their pitchers playing golf but when the Cubs came up to Milwaukee, my buddy and I got to play in a 4 some with Greg and his buddy and the guy is a hack.
Off the tee, he is not a reliable driver.
Great content. Every time I watch a game from before 2010 I'm surprised by how inconsistent the strike zone is. I'm always left wondering if some pitchers just had it better from umps than others...
nah, it was actually a stratagy cooked up by the 90's brave's pitching coach. they would intentionally paint the corners with strikes in warmups to let the umps get used to the pitching, then in the first two or three innings they'd walk the ball out of the zone, slowly. it basically hypnotized the umps into thinking they were seeing a corner painting strike when it's really a ball a foot outside the zone. He got that type of umpiring everywhere he went, in fact it wasn't just him, the whole braves staff did. Sure there were some umps who wouldn't stretch the zone that much for them, but maddox had so much control he could pitch to whatever strikezone the umps were calling.
As a result if you watch those 90's braves you'd see almost all the hits coming in the first inning or two when they still were throwing plausible strikes. the later the game went, the wider the zone and the harder it was to get a hit.
Yeah just like popular or rich people get preferential treatment so would athletes especially when the umps job preference was not being tied to perfection of the strike zone. Or he's just a magician like this other clown is saying lol
@@mediocrestu8238 dude, you're probably too young to have seen those 90's braves. this isn't an unknown story. the braves were known for expanding the strikezone slowly as the game went. sure some umps gave big strikezones and some smaller, but the one thing you could count on was maddox or smoltz or glavin stretching that strike zone to the edge of madness.
Little known fact, woody harrelsons character in now you see me was based on the braves pitching staff from the 90s
Maddux was my first baseball love, and you never forget those. My mom was a Braves fan and so very early on I was introduced to that lineup of Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz. Chipper Jones was my other favorite player on the team. Good times.
This is the type of content I fire up UA-cam everyday for, nice work.
As a catcher, I always appreciated Maddux's control. It was rare to see him miss a spot he was throwing to.
Hey foolish, I’d really really appreciate if you could make a video going over the best pitcher of all time, Walter Johnson. Thank you
The Train would be great to watch.
When it got to the defense highlight clips, I was like "wait a second...". XD Great video as always
I had to pause it when he said 72 innings without a walk. Mind boggling…. Glad I was there to witness it all. The whole rotation was insane back then, even Avery!
Never clicked so fast in my life
Same
Same
It's much appreciated!
loved Greg Maddux growing up. he's living proof that u dont need heat
The 90s Strike Zone Moments! Brilliant!
Wow, so many of those pitches on the left side of the plate missed by several inches. He definitely got the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure he used it to his advantage.
so, Skip & Don got it right, eh? that’s what I took away from this. those two were something special & I didn’t know how lucky I was to have them calling games on air until they weren’t around to do so. Go Braves! GD, Maddux was Special. RiP Skip, Don & Pete…you guys were special, too