All breaking balls do some wear on the arms so to blame one pitch for all of the issue is wrong. Great report video. I would add John Smoltz in the case not a screw baller but the point he had many arm problems due to curves and the splitfinger pitches. But they want to give all blame on one pitch just doesn’t support the case.
Its not the screwball its the person throwing that screwball as hard as that kid was if you look at Vernando's compared to the other kids. Vernando's looked like it was going slower which is the reason they call breaking pitches and anything not a fastball a off speed pitch. Its called off speed because you actually need to take a little off of it so it don't kill your arm.
"The screwball is bad because it's unnatural" say guys who use their entire bodies like counterweights in a trebuchet to allow their arm to release a ball at 100 miles per hour
overhand pitching is VERY natural to human movement, so natural that humans are the only primates that can actually do it; it stresses our bodies, yes, but that's just because evolution is a dumb process that stops at the point where one's genes are able to consistently pass on, not continual improvement. People who say pitching is "unnatural" need to really learn what that word actually means, lol.
Warren Spahn was master of the screwball, and I never heard anything about special surgery for him. The guy also pitched many complete games, not like these days.
Pete Rose said the 3 hardest pitches to hit were: Nolan Ryan's fastball, Nolan Ryan's curveball set up off of his fastball, and Fernando Valenzuela's screwball...
More so the fact people lack the skill today to throw it. It's a control issue. If the didn't say it caused injuries they would have to admit the players today require steroids to hold up to figures of the past.
@@joshportie That is just again a fallacy... deterring people from using and not teaching said pitch makes them not very good at it. Not the other way around.
@jean jacques its really not a fallacy. By every measurable metric people in the past were stronger and faster than today. By past I'm referring to 300 years and beyond. It's been a slow gradual decline. The evidence speaks for itself.
@@joshportie what are you on about never in history have athletes been so specialized and so efficient (through medical discoveries and also drugs let's be honest) average height as increased by about 3 inches compared to the historical average in the past 100 years (European men) you are talking out of your ass yeah sure the average office worker is weaker than your average farmer from 200 years ago (not even necessary because the easy availability of food allows us to develop much more than our ancestors and build more muscle) etc but your casual gym bro is stronger than them. Idk what you are on about but the evidence you are talking about is either referring to mythological achievements or regarding some very specific metric that is not relevant to strength or speed.
I threw a pretty nasty screwball in high school. Once I started working out and realized I threw one naturally, I leaned in and it was devastating. Then I hurt my elbow… playing football lol. Never had pain throwing it (my hand naturally turns that way) so just took my huge ass paw and turned harder. Loved to see guys reaction to it the first time.
It reminds me of throwing a backup ball in bowling. I can do it but if I do it a lot, I definitely start to feel it in my elbow especially and a little in my shoulder. But then there are people that that are just built to do it naturally and have zero issues with it.
I have large palms but my fingers are relatively short. When I was younger I’d sometimes “lose” the ball out of the back of my hand and it would like a screwball. I realized in hs that if I put three fingers on the seam and put more pressure on the ring finger I could throw a ball with two seam action. I called it a screwball but it didn’t drop a whole lot.
@@proper_noun436 While I haven't reached that point of the video, I assume they're explaining the supination that precedes pronation and calling that pronation.
I heard Al Leiter once say on an MLB broadcast several years ago that he felt more pressure in his elbow throwing the fastball because it was a max effort pitch. He said he did not feel that way about the curve ball.
That elbow pressure happens when pressing weight, especially a barbell, at max effort (the strain on the body) and/or max intensity (the weight of the bar/dumbbell/whatever) out in front of the body as well. That's why people who press a couple times a week will develop shoulder and elbow tendonitis at some point. I've felt it come and go in both shoulders, elbows and forearms. I don't feel it as much when overhead pressing.
The pitcher I remember most for throwing the screwball is Mike Cuellar. Pitching for the Orioles, he won 20 or more games in 1969, 1970, 1971, and, after two seasons with 18 wins, he won 22 in 1974. He also pitched more than 290 innings in '69, '70, and '71, and his E.R.A. in 1969 was 2.38. Quite a pitcher with a career that lasted from 1959 to 1977.
Cuellar was great. Orioles fan forever, and as a Senior in HS sat 6 rows behind Twins dugout while Cuellar outdueled Jim Kaat (I think) in the first American League playoff game when the divisions were split. Don Buford won the game on a HR in the 9th. Great Oriole team outplayed by the Mets (ugh)
I was about to start typing a comment about Devin Williams's change basically being a screwball right before you mentioned it in the video. Fantastic work, and good to see some Mike Marshall recognition as well!
So aren't pitches today automatically identified by statcast based on their velocity, movement, spin, etc? I can think of examples where a pitcher calls his pitch a slider but the pitch tracker IDs it as a curve, or where an announcer refers to a pitch as a slider even though statcast calls it a cut fastball. Is there a criteria for screwballs that Devin Williams's doesn't meet?
@@TheEloheim I think that there's no automatic classification for screwball since they're so rare. My guess is they specifically planned it for Honeywell's because it was well known that he threw one
The only thing that Devin William's changeup might have different from a "true" screwball is drop caused by active spin. The big difference between sliders and curveballs is the amount of drop from active spin, with a curveball having a spin axis more strongly angled downwards to cause them to drop much further (along with curves usually having a higher active spin percentage, but that's not always the case), with the slider's drop largely coming simply because it doesn't have much or any backspin based on the active component of its spin axis being largely horizontal. Similarly the difference between a "true" screwball and a circle change with good movement is that a screwball has a spin axis tilted down far enough to actively push the ball down, just like a curveball does, while a circle change has a more horizontal spin axis that is almost purely side-spin with the drop coming solely from a lack of backspin. A screwball also generally would also have a higher spinrate than a changeup, in the same way that a curveball has a higher average spinrate than a slider. Curveballs have an average spinrate right around 2600 RPM with a common range from ~1900-3250 while sliders have an average spinrate of around 2450 RPM with a common range from ~1800-3000 RPM. Changeups have even less spin, only ~1750 RPM on average and a common range from ~1,250-2,350. Something with a noticeably down spin axis, angled towards the arm side, and a 2,200+ RPM spin rate would definitely classify as a screwball if it was an automatic pitch category for Statcast. It's just too different from the average change-up to be classified as the same pitch, especially when much more similar pitches (such as the cutter and slider) exist with separate classifications.
The last pitchers I remember throwing really good screwballs were Tug McGraw and Fernando Valenzuela. I think the "common wisdom" is that throwing a screwball puts a lot more strain and stress on the arm than other pitches....although in this age of young pitchers getting "preventative" Tommy John Surgery, I don't know what that should matter.
A partial explanation: some pitchers have learned to grip a changeup to move the same way as a screwball, and, there is a theory that the screwball is easy to spot due to the arm motion
Exactly. Just look at Greg Maddox's circle change. It moved a lot like a screwball, he was pinpoint accurate with it and never had any major arm problems. So why throw a screwball?
Theres a great passage in the Bill James/Rob Neyer book of pitchers that really explained the issue here. Its a combo of the stress put on the arm but more importantly the development of the circle change that effectively works similarly but with far less stress on the arm.
Masa Yamamoto 山本昌 in Japanese baseball threw the screw ball as a main arsenal and had a career in there until age 50. It was actually taught by Fernando when they met in the US. Something to throw the stone at the argument on longevity. He does claim that he cannot lift his left arm after the retirement though.
Tyvm for covering this subject. Since I was 5 yrs old and got my 1st glove for Christmas I've been mildly obsessed with the mechanics of pitches. But especially the knuckle and the screwball. And I desperately wanted to b a pitcher growing up Unfortunately I wasn't blessed with a golden arm...well...that's not true exactly. I was a helluva catcher. But I taught pitchers on my team how to grip and throw a lot of different pitches. But got in trouble for showing guys how to throw a screwball. My coach was my coach in football, basketball, and baseball. From freshmen yr til I graduated. I starting getting in trouble my sophomore yr. So he suggested over summer break I stay with his family and help him work on the house he was gonna flip. And I did. And he watched like a hawk and worked me like a rented mule. I don't think he was ever genuinely mad at me. Disappointed, maybe. But he was furious at me for showing guys how throw all those pitches. He said at our stage in growing up and muscle development and all that kinda stuff would Irreversibly b damaged trying to throw anything but fastballs and change ups. And anything side arm. What no one knew at the time that my school was axing the baseball&softball teams after that yr. We were pretty terrible...lol. The other 2 sports were still around so it wasn't to awful 😆
I only played a couple of years when I was in middle school and one of our pitchers knew how to throw a slider, it was illegal in my league because of what you mention but we sneaked a couple in two strike counts, it was so fun to get swings and misses, the umpire would tell us that we shouldn't use it lol, fun memories but it probably wasn't a good idea.
I absolutely love this video. it's well said and well documented that the screwball has almost always been the dark deviant pitch that destroys careers and ruins arms. I fell in love with the movement and rareness of the pitch when I was a kid and absolutely obsessed over the history and lore of it. I threw it as a teenage kid playing AAU and USSSA ball and I always felt that I had to hide the name screwball and always said it was my "open handed change up" or circle change. Obviously I never played or pitched professionally but it's funny thinking back on it nowadays. The fact that a kid playing rec-league & traveling youth baseball, I felt so scared to call it what it TRULY was, a screwball! ✌❤
The issues with the knuckleball are 1) Most catchers aren't good at catching them because 2) Even the pitcher often has just a general idea of where the ball is going to go. When it works, it's borderline impossible to make solid contact. When it doesn't... well watch Tim Wakefield's games where he gave up a ton of home runs. There were a lot of them.
A knuckleball is actually a fingernail ball. As you throw it all four fingers are gripping the ball with the tips of the fingers...it looks like a shriveled up spider. Your knuckles are pressed into the ball surface but the tips and nails do the work. Then as you release it you flick your fingers in the same motion it takes to flick water at someone. You throw with a fastball motion and upon reaching release point flicking your fingers stops the rotation. This allows air to pass over the seams inconsistently causing the ball to bob and weave erratically.
@@ryanchase9332 This. Tim Wakefield being brought into the bottom half of a tie game in extra innings during game 7 of the 2003 ALCS stands out to me as one of the craziest decisions a manager has made. I'm a Yankees fan. I benefited from it. I still think its a nutball decision. It really is an all or nothing approach. If the movement isn't there, the pitcher may as well be throwing bp.
I've been a sub for a while and I gotta say, your channel is turning into one of the best baseball channels on YT in how you bring up great players from the past who might otherwise not be as widely remembered. Keep up the great content, brother!
Pretty sure what scared everybody was those old pictures of Carl Hubbell's bent arm. I unwittingly taught myself the screwball as a kid. Also I happened across a cutter as well. My problem is I never had any velocity as I grew to make the movement matter, I topped out at about 70mph.
My pitching career ended in Little League when my coach wouldn't let me take the mound despite promising me in nearly every practice that he would. His son was a pitcher, and he was pretty good so he was always our starting (and closing since we only played 6 innings, I think?) pitcher in every game. The problem I had was that I was genuinely pretty good, and the coach even took notice which is why he kept telling me he was going to give me a shot "in the next game". The last straw was when it came down to the final two games of the season and our team was already out of contention for the LL tournament, so winning and losing literally didn't matter. Guess who pitched both of those games? The only good part of that memory is watching my Dad (who is one of the most non-confrontational people on the planet) stand up from the bleachers to walk down to the dugout to give the coach a piece of his mind. After he yelled at coach, he asked if I wanted to leave without playing the final game and I said hell yes!
I had velocity I could throw over 80mph as a Sophmore in HS. Coach every season would always give me a tryout at pitching and I'd throw 3 heaters down the middle of the plate and the 4th pitch about 3 feet over the catchers head. Coach said if I let you pitch your gonna kill somebody. I'm left handed and was forced into centerfield my entire 9 years of playing ball. Except one strange occurance during the allstar game they had too many lefties or something and I played 2nd base for first and only time of my life. That was a rush!
8:54. Dude. Fernando Valenzuela’s career was famously derailed because of recurring shoulder injuries. Do some actual research instead of looking at his Baseball Reference page and assuming he never got hurt because he played a long time. Doesn’t necessarily mean the injuries were because of the screwball, but that’s a pretty important piece of info to completely whiff on.
In 1980 we lived a partial lie. #1 Valenzuela wasn't 20yr old.. he was probably 30yr. #2, Leftys who throw in the low 90s are already nasty. Adding a screwgy should be on the same page as steroids . I'm old and have loved this game for 52 yrs.. I was a catcher. That screwball is hard to catch. Moves like a curve ball thrown by a right hander (if the pitcher is left handed). Only Fernando threw it 88mph. That's really really filthy nasty. Like I said, Fernando was at least 10yrs older then we think (no birth certificate). So he pitched in the big leagues until he was 46yrs. Not 36yrs.. Fernando was a super stud! When he retired he threw 8 pitches. His fastball was only 80mph. And he still won games. In My opinion Fernando is one of the greatest left handers all-time. Lasorda rode him hard. He threw a ton of innings every season.
Fastballs and change-ups are fine too if you're not putting every last ounce of strength into it. Guys throwing 82-90 rarely have these problems.Of course only the ones with Maddox like control are successful at that
@wingracer 16 When you throw in in the 85-92 mph range, you can also get away with problematic mechanics for longer than you would if you threw 95+. If you throw 100 with Verlander's mechanics (not counting either time someone tried to get him away from his long-arm mechanics), you'll be far more durable than if you're throwing 100 with Syndergaard's or Degrom's mechanics. You'll be far more durable throwing 100 with Nolan Ryan's or Randy Johnson's mechanics than you would be throwing 95-98 with Mark Prior's mechanics. It's not just how hard you throw. How you throw hard is a far bigger factor into your injury risk.
Screwballers were always a special breed amongst pitchers-like knuckleballers. The difference is that unlike the knuckleball, which is actually the least damaging pitch on the arm, the screwball is the worst. You either master the screwball or you might as well give up because the wear and tear on the arm isn't worth the sacrifice. I think most pitchers today are so drawn to the fabulous riches a prosperous baseball career could provide that they are unwilling to jeopardize it for a screwball.
It's easy for some and painful for others. Wrist bend and arm angle is the same as the curve, but instead of bending the wrist in towards the body, bend it outward, as if doing an egyptian pose. Snap the ball downward as you would the curve.
a long, long, long, time ago! Mathewson- has the best numbers of any right-handed NL pitcher. He won 373 games not 273 in the ML. Big mistake. He was also gassed in World War one in France. That ultimately contributed to his downfall and early death from TB. King Carl Hubbell was a HOFer himself and a famous Screwballer. Both NY Giants BTW. Remember baseball, may it RIP, it's NOT played anymore, too many rule changes since Posey's ankle got blown up and the owners went crazy trying to make baseball a non-contact sport - like badmitten! When I was a kid I watched Marichal go 15 innings against the Mets and lose. What was unusual was the fact that he usually owned the Mets. I watched Wibur Wood start both games of a double header. Too bad it had to end this way...it really is.
The Screwball is a very difficult pitch to throw due to the unnatural twisting of the arm. Also, it began to lose its favor just as Mike Scott’s success of the Split-fingered fastball allowed for it to become more of a popular pitch to throw, the difference is that instead of an off-speed pitch, the split-fingered is thrown more like a fastball, but with similar movement to the screwball. Plus, most pitchers will find it easier to throw a fastball pitch much more than an off speed pitch.
i think the knuckle must be the most difficult grip to master. i bet knuckleball success theory has directives on optimal fingernail length and sharpness... it would make sense... i am not a pitcher but i have a hard time understanding how a mild twist of the elbow and wrist could be all that hard to incorporate into essentially a changeup delivery
great video and thorough research. another noteworthy pitcher who was a frequent user of the circle change, who gave it what looked a lot like screwball action, was jamie moyer. he used it rather sparingly but i'm fairly sure that archived video would prove that he used it sometimes. didn't seem to bring his career to an early end either... and the only thing keeping hector santiago out of mlb is his ped suspension. he was effective for the mariners until he was suspended.
and on that note, i have suspected for years that felix hernandez would sometimes use a shuuto/splitfinger grip on his "changeup".... it had so much movement, not unlike devin williams' pitch.
My natural pitch growing up was a screwball. I had trouble throwing a curve because it seemed unnatural. Never had arm issues and always had good velocity. The problem with todays pitchers is clearly too much dependence on velocity and not enough attention to how to pitch.
You can get a pretty good screwball effect sidearm. You use a split finger grip. You can, as you release it, either snap your fingers along the front of the ball (pulling it across the body like a curve) or along the back of the ball, which gives it a screwball movement. For the curve version, you can also roll the pointer over the ball to get it to drop faster, or not, to make it come up and break away like a rising fastball. By adjusting how tightly you hold the ball you can adjust either one to give up speed for rotation.
A good circle change thrown from a sidearm arm or very low 3/4 arm slot will have the same spin axis of a screwball, because you took a circle change (largely horizontal spin from a vertical arm slot) and rotated it 45-90 so it's now pointed down and away instead of just away.
Right, so why the F does anyone believe a fastball is the only way??... Why??? the goal is to get guys out if you're on the mound and you can do that many ways if you're intelligent..... I mean it blows my mind...
It actually is exciting to see a screwball live pitch, even more when it gets hit bc it's so rare.. when it gets knocked.. that's beautiful hitting. All mechanics, optics & response timing is working.
I threw a screwball all though high school and my coaches made me stop once I got to college because they were afraid I was going to hurt my arm. I lost my best pitch and even though I don’t think I was going to the big leagues I do think I was good enough with that pitch to at least get drafted and play some minor league ball. Unfortunately that didn’t happen.
I was a very average pitcher in high school. My fastball velocity wasn't there, the break on my change and curve were decent, but nothing special. I mainly played first base and was on the team because of my hitting abilities. The reason why I was allowed to pitch at all was because Valenzuela was my favorite pitcher growing up, and I messed with the screwball as soon as my dad gave me the okay to start throwing pitches other than a fastball. I had a good freshman and sophomore season pitching in the limited attempts I was given. The kids didn't even really know what the pitch was. After that season, the coach told me if I improved the velocity on my fastball just a little, I would be the main starter going into junior year. At that point, I really wasn't committed to baseball fully, but that conversation had me thinking about it. Sadly, I ended up hurting my elbow that summer....playing tennis against my brother. Needless to say, that was it for my baseball career. That injury really sucked, because it gave me the yips, big time. To this day, I can't even have a catch with someone, let alone pitch. It didn't affect my ability to hit, though, which is something, I suppose.
@breadandcircuses8127 Throwing a screwball is similar to throwing a curve ball except the arm is twisted in the opposite direction, which is awkward and very difficult to do. The split fingered fastball has a very similar motion but it is thrown just like a fast ball, only that the finger placement on the baseball is different.
Cristy Mathewson stopped pitching because of an accident with mustard gas during the end of the First World War. It’s also the same thing that led to his early death. Just figured I should point that out.
This an amazing video. I throw fast and hard and found that the screw ball pitch is the best control workout and fortified side to side muscles, and does not weaken. I got faster and more accurate. As well, the old guys used it for the same reason. Throwing a standard curve ball is the damage caused. That is why starters now only go 6 innings. ..????
The knuckleball has also been phased out. I threw a 2 seamer, changeup, screwball, knuckler, and curve back in the day. I learned to throw a sinker, but rarely threw it. I had college offers for scholarships for football and baseball, but went into the Army. I was an all around athlete. Constant fastballs can be worse on the arm than a screwball. It's not all about the pitch, but mechanics too. If you notice, most pitchers that need TJS throw at a 3/4 angle, instead of overshoulder.
this video makes me happy. I couldn't figure out how to throw a curveball until I was 18, but I figured out a screwball at 15, it helped me have one of the lowest ERAs in my division in high school at just under .4 as a closer
It's because with pitch counts and deep bullpens NOBODY PITCHES anymore....everyone is taught to throw as hard as they can for the short duration of their "outing"....just because you CAN throw 100mph, doesn't mean you SHOULD on every pitch....
Snapping a curve ball is just as hard on your arm as a screwball. I was always told the must unnatural for your arm is to just throw a baseball. Bring back the knuckle ball
I would also love to see the returns of the knuckleball and forkball. Especially for those pitchers who might have every ability to make the majors but maybe they just can't throw the fastball at 97-100 mph, so they keep trying to bulk up to get more arm strength. Which puts more pressure on those tendons in the elbows and shoulders. And the argument of well...catchers have a hard time catching the knuckleball isn't a valid argument. You can always have a catcher spend time in the off season with a pitcher learning how to catch the pitch. But for those borderline players...the ones who might never see the big leagues or stick at that level...it is worth it to develop these pitches and see if they can get really good at them. Phil and Joe Neikro, whatever one thinks of them...had great careers being knuckleball specialists. Tim Wakefield, same thing. Gregg Maddux used the Forkball. Didn't have an electric fastball, but his control and and ability to use his off speed pitches effectively, made him one of the true greats of the game. Yes. Learning some of these pitches too young can lead to issues later on. But, in high school or college or in the minor leagues...this is where one should be learning what to employ into one's arsenal. Not everyone gets blessed with an electric fastball. But one can still have a hell of a career if they learn how to pitch and not just throw. Good video.
Mike Marshall knew the body and that's good enough for me. baseball is still in the burning people at the stake era just because they don't toe their antiquated line. overextended arm release points are the cause of wrecked elbows, period. the screwball and sinker "pronated" motion are the least damaging to elbow releases.
I could throw a screwball, but stopped because of the twinge I'd feel in my elbow when I did. Then I discovered I could get the same effect by merely changing how my top two fingers were positioned on the seams (on the seams, rather than across the seams) with a fastball motion. The pitch would drop off the table and in to the hitter. The Mariners' Felix Hernandez had a 'change-up' that he threw in the low 90s (his fastball was in the high 90s) that did the same thing.
Felix Hernandez' changeup was largely just a backwards slider. It had identical vertical drop as his slider (with 2 inches of the same in every season tracked by Statcast) and the same velocity (within 2mph on every Statcast season) but 2-3x more horizontal movement that went in the opposite direction of his slider's horizontal movement. It worked so well because he had two pitched that looked identical out of the hand and en route to the batter (same velocity and same vertical drop profile) but would end up 15" apart from one another horizontally by the time they reached the plate. His 4-seam and sinker worked well together for the same reason, they were thrown at the same velocity and despite his sinker not actually sinking very much (only 3-5" more drop than his fastball, which would look very similar to batters out of the hand and en route to the plate) it would move 10+ inches more horizontally than the 4 seamer. The secret to great pitchers has always been an arsenal of different pitches that look identical until it's too late for the batter to react. If the velocity and vertical drop are the same, then the horizontal break will be massively different. The trick is pitches that are as similar as possible in 2 out of 3 categories to make them hard for batters to identify/distinguish, but VERY different in the third category to fool batters (whether it be on vertical drop, horizontal movement, or swing timing).
@@Pretzulkj Yes, that is why I wrote 'change-up', The announcers always called it that, but clearly that wasn't what it was. Now, another Mariner pitcher; Mark Langston, there was a change-up.
@@patricksullivan4329 yeah, I totally agree with you. Just was adding details on the specifics of what made his “change-up” different from the norm for others who were reading the comment chain!
The screwball just paid you for this puff piece! It IS EVIL! Seriously though, I like these deep dive videos about pitches. Really informative and excellent work! I'd like to see one about the mythical Gyroball!
@@axelagosto5196 Any pitch can hurt your arm if you throw it wrong. If you follow the "rule" of showing the ball to 2nd, a screwball (as well as a circle change) will hurt. Thrown properly, a screwball is easier on your arm than a curveball or fastball. Keeping the wrist relaxed and neutral (showing to 3rd for RHP and 1st for LHP) is far easier on the arm in general.
I like that random footage of that infamous A's pinch-runner getting picked off. Unless I'm mistaken, that guy never actually hit or played the field at all. He was a pure professional baserunner, for like a week.
My father blew out his arm in high school. I took to baseball quickly, preliminarily as a catcher. Then, I realized I couldn't hit...as a switch hitter, from the left all contact, from the right all power...anyway, by the start of junior league, Dear Ol' Dad decided to teach me to pitch. I was cranking a solid 72+ mph at 11, with some issues with command. By 13, I had a fastball of 77mph, a nasty drop curve, a knuckleball, circle change...and then, Dear Ol Dad noticed aspects of my delivery & taught me the screwball. I had an awesome run, 3 starts in a row. I had started the day before, my squad was getting demolished, so I was brought in to finish things out - pitch to contact, mercy rule, etc - on my second pitch, a screwball, I blew out my elbow & tore my rotator cuff. A poor kid, in a fading midwest city, no such thing as "healthcare" Tryouts at 14? I could barely reach the plate. A wash up. For years I blamed my pops, fell into cliched addictions early & eventually made peace with it, but I'd swear, I'd be retired - a small time draft bust, but paid lol.
As someone who threw out both of his shoulders in swimming(and water polo) many times, I get throwing out one's shoulder for the extra speed it could provide dislocating one's shoulder or wrist depending on sport. Both of my shoulders dislocate of command from swim and my left wrist (lefty) dislocates on command for extra command at distance. I'm only 26 and have noticed pain in all 3 joints but still experience excellent flexibility and strength in them despite the minor pain that has come over time.
As a kid I used to throw the screwball a lot. I loved the way it broke. One day I was playing a long-distance game of catch with a friend and I cranked off a huge screwball without warming up first...OUCH! Major elbow pain. I never threw anything again. At 13, my baseball career was over. It was probably due to poor warmup, and not the screwball especially, but as a kid we didn't purposely warmup. We just threw the ball with abandon. I had quite an arm before that and none after that.
I remember watching John Franco and how he mastered the pitch. The knuckleball is on the chopping block. Nobody tries to master these oddball pitches anymore. I think Wakefield was the last pure knuckleballer. I miss seeing oddities in the repitore.
@@buckteelios1459 no bruh, he wasnt. He threw his knuckleball 60% of the time. His knuckler was 1 of a 4 pitch repitore. If you grew up watching Charlie Hough, Phil Niekro, and to a lesser degree Tom Candiotti, a true knuckleballer pitches a knuckleball. Not a slider. Not a curve. It's a knuckleball with the possibility of 2 or 3 "fastballs" in the 65-70mph range.
Regarding the studies Marshall conducted and which this video references at 7:57: 1. They aren't "easily accessible"? If they're *at all* accessible, why not look at them? Who has access to them? 2. Why did he single out the elbow to study when there are other injurable parts of the pitching arm?
Fernando Valenzuela paid a steep price during his incredible rookie season in 1981. At just 20 years old, he threw 8 consecutive complete games to start the season-something unheard of in modern baseball. He led the league with 11 complete games, highlighting the heavy workload he faced at such a young age and the long-term toll it took on his career...yes. he was the nasty screwball ever.
How old was Carl Hubbell when he stopped pitching again? And how many wins did Christy Mathewson have? This obsession with velocity has ruined _far_ more arms than the screwball ever did. I'd chalk their problems up to overuse far more than the mechanics of the screwball.
When I was learning/using my screwball, I noticed that my elbow would occassionally buckle very slightly during the follow through. It was barely noticeable and didn't hurt but I started thinking about what would happen if one were to go five to ten years or more leaning heavily on the pitch. I concluded that all of those slight buckles would probably add up to a good bit of damage and were likely the culprit for arm trouble for many screwballers. I never went betond college ball but from the point in high school where I noticed the buckle I made a conscious effort to keep that elbow bent through out the follow through and never had any discomfort from it. In fact, I could feel my regular curve in my elbow much more than the screwgie.
I initially learned it by accident. I started with a modified 2-seam grip labeled as a sinker in Tom Seaver's book. Figuring out how to throw it without pain was how I learned that the advice to show the ball to 2nd base is complete BS and getting pitchers hurt. I had a lot less arm pain in general once I figured that out.
watched this entire video and attempted to throw one hurt my (admittedly already weak) wrist on the first throw lmao ive never played baseball in my life tho
I've never pitched before (I was an OF), but I used to mess around in HS with different pitches during warm-ups. While the screwball has an awkward--almost tight--feel to it. It feels as though your forearm isn't supposed to rotate in that direction. However, it's this "tightness" that makes it seem like you're less likely to throw out your arm like you can with a curveball.
Yeah I remember people claiming that it's all about elbow injuries. Well, it's been proven time and time again that higher velocity tends to lead to higher frequency of injury. Case in point: pitching in the 21st century. In fact, I remember an MLB Network clip where Harold Reynolds was asking Trevor Bauer what he had discovered about pitcher injuries. Reynolds was trying to bait him into responding with some sort of breaking ball, but of course, Bauer answered that it was velocity. And then Reynolds acted all dumb and went like, "Oh, well yeah!" For one particular reason, that clip is forever ingrained in my head because it just goes to show. Some people's biases never go away.
You explained the pronating motion completely backwards and you showed the wrong video when explaining. Curves and sliders have you turn your thumb away from your body. Changeups and screwballs have you pronate inward - your index finger turns down to the glove side
After learning that there was a softball pitcher who clocked in at 149 MPH, pitched until he was in his sixties, never slowing down, I'm convinced that what MLB needs to do is switch to underhanded pitches. They're much less hard on the joints and potentially just as fast and can spin just as much. Most underhanded baseball pitchers (it used to be a thing up until the early 1900's) were able to pitch complete double headers multiple days in a row without their arms falling off. The overhanded pitchers were never able to do that, especially once they started throwing the really fast balls starting in the 1920's.
with williams, could u say that because u can get that similar arm side run with a circle change, 2 seamer/sinker, and even some splitters(depending on arm slot and release) with higher speeds, using a “traditional” screwball would be obsolete?
I don’t think the screwball is “dead” per say, more so it’s evolved into a changeup. I think if someone from the 30’s or 40’s saw a modern day changeup they would call it a screwball because back then the only thing that was considered a changeup would’ve been something like a palm ball
@@zacheray some pitchers use pronation to create extreme arm side run on their changeups. Devin Williams is the main guy for this but there are others like Eli Morgan, Trevor Richards, Aaron Ashby, etc. I think the fate of the screwball is similar to that of the forkball which also became a bit of a dead pitch after the invention of the splitter
One could argue that the screwball action as such is not needed if you can throw a sinker or a good change-up that fades, or even a fastball that you get on the other side of so that it rides away from the arm side of the pitcher. You don't really need to turn the ball all the way over like a true screwball, which can be difficult to get a feel for.
I naturally throw in a curve back towards my dominant hand. I’ve pinned it down to my mechanics as I have a 3/4 level release. My wrist naturally turns the ball that direction and I have never had issues. I had more problems with blowing and tendentious in my forearm
This same argument can be made for the submarine delivery. A lot of the notable submarine pitchers led their league in appearances, kent tekalve even made an argument that because it's the natural arm slot that it's better
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All breaking balls do some wear on the arms so to blame one pitch for all of the issue is wrong. Great report video. I would add John Smoltz in the case not a screw baller but the point he had many arm problems due to curves and the splitfinger pitches. But they want to give all blame on one pitch just doesn’t support the case.
Baseball is unnatural, not just screwball. People are not born playing baseball by default.
Its not the screwball its the person throwing that screwball as hard as that kid was if you look at Vernando's compared to the other kids. Vernando's looked like it was going slower which is the reason they call breaking pitches and anything not a fastball a off speed pitch. Its called off speed because you actually need to take a little off of it so it don't kill your arm.
"The screwball is bad because it's unnatural" say guys who use their entire bodies like counterweights in a trebuchet to allow their arm to release a ball at 100 miles per hour
just like my forefathers did in the caveman wars, ok?
@@pandookrb as illustrated in the seminal case Marbury's head vs Madison's rock..
This comment wins :)
overhand pitching is VERY natural to human movement, so natural that humans are the only primates that can actually do it; it stresses our bodies, yes, but that's just because evolution is a dumb process that stops at the point where one's genes are able to consistently pass on, not continual improvement. People who say pitching is "unnatural" need to really learn what that word actually means, lol.
lol. perfect comment
Not sure if one can blame the screwball for tearing UCLs considering every pitcher tears their UCL before the age of 25 nowadays
Yeah it's almost become a prerequisite that you have to have TJ surgery before you can make the bigs.
Are you a real pitcher if you've never had TJ🤣🤣🤣
Its been proben by science that the screwball impacts the ucl less severely than other pitches. Its a very safe pitch
Like popping a cherry...
Warren Spahn was master of the screwball, and I never heard anything about special surgery for him. The guy also pitched many complete games, not like these days.
Pete Rose said the 3 hardest pitches to hit were: Nolan Ryan's fastball, Nolan Ryan's curveball set up off of his fastball, and Fernando Valenzuela's screwball...
Perhaps it's a myth perpetuated by batters to stop pitchers devlping it and so that they don't have to face the screwball?
More so the fact people lack the skill today to throw it. It's a control issue. If the didn't say it caused injuries they would have to admit the players today require steroids to hold up to figures of the past.
@@joshportie That is just again a fallacy... deterring people from using and not teaching said pitch makes them not very good at it. Not the other way around.
That would be very funny
@jean jacques its really not a fallacy. By every measurable metric people in the past were stronger and faster than today. By past I'm referring to 300 years and beyond. It's been a slow gradual decline. The evidence speaks for itself.
@@joshportie what are you on about never in history have athletes been so specialized and so efficient (through medical discoveries and also drugs let's be honest) average height as increased by about 3 inches compared to the historical average in the past 100 years (European men) you are talking out of your ass yeah sure the average office worker is weaker than your average farmer from 200 years ago (not even necessary because the easy availability of food allows us to develop much more than our ancestors and build more muscle) etc but your casual gym bro is stronger than them. Idk what you are on about but the evidence you are talking about is either referring to mythological achievements or regarding some very specific metric that is not relevant to strength or speed.
I threw a pretty nasty screwball in high school. Once I started working out and realized I threw one naturally, I leaned in and it was devastating. Then I hurt my elbow… playing football lol. Never had pain throwing it (my hand naturally turns that way) so just took my huge ass paw and turned harder. Loved to see guys reaction to it the first time.
It reminds me of throwing a backup ball in bowling. I can do it but if I do it a lot, I definitely start to feel it in my elbow especially and a little in my shoulder. But then there are people that that are just built to do it naturally and have zero issues with it.
I have large palms but my fingers are relatively short. When I was younger I’d sometimes “lose” the ball out of the back of my hand and it would like a screwball. I realized in hs that if I put three fingers on the seam and put more pressure on the ring finger I could throw a ball with two seam action. I called it a screwball but it didn’t drop a whole lot.
This video explains pronating motions completely backward from how theyre really thrown
@@proper_noun436 While I haven't reached that point of the video, I assume they're explaining the supination that precedes pronation and calling that pronation.
@@wingracer1614 The wrist motion for a screwball is a lot closer to the normal bowling motion where you're trying to get it to curve.
This video had some good quotes honestly, “baseball purgatory for crimes it didn’t commit” like that’s hard af
“I love Screw and Balls.”
- The Diddler
Fernando was such a young tank. Age 20-29 seasons he averaged 230 innings pitched per season.
Very informative piece of the science of the screwball. The passing of Fernando Valenzuela led me here. His Screwball is filthy. R.I.P. 🙏🏾🙏🏾
I wanted to see what honeywell had going into the World Series #dodgersin6 WIN IT ALL FOR EL TORO
I heard Al Leiter once say on an MLB broadcast several years ago that he felt more pressure in his elbow throwing the fastball because it was a max effort pitch. He said he did not feel that way about the curve ball.
That elbow pressure happens when pressing weight, especially a barbell, at max effort (the strain on the body) and/or max intensity (the weight of the bar/dumbbell/whatever) out in front of the body as well. That's why people who press a couple times a week will develop shoulder and elbow tendonitis at some point. I've felt it come and go in both shoulders, elbows and forearms. I don't feel it as much when overhead pressing.
The pitcher I remember most for throwing the screwball is Mike Cuellar. Pitching for the Orioles, he won 20 or more games in 1969, 1970, 1971, and, after two seasons with 18 wins, he won 22 in 1974. He also pitched more than 290 innings in '69, '70, and '71, and his E.R.A. in 1969 was 2.38. Quite a pitcher with a career that lasted from 1959 to 1977.
He was also a co-winner of the Cy Young award in 1969. My favorite pitcher as a kid. Great screwball pitcher.
Cuellar was great. Orioles fan forever, and as a Senior in HS sat 6 rows behind Twins dugout while Cuellar outdueled Jim Kaat (I think) in the first American League playoff game when the divisions were split. Don Buford won the game on a HR in the 9th. Great Oriole team outplayed by the Mets (ugh)
I was about to start typing a comment about Devin Williams's change basically being a screwball right before you mentioned it in the video. Fantastic work, and good to see some Mike Marshall recognition as well!
In The Show 21 Williams has a screwball which is interesting
So aren't pitches today automatically identified by statcast based on their velocity, movement, spin, etc? I can think of examples where a pitcher calls his pitch a slider but the pitch tracker IDs it as a curve, or where an announcer refers to a pitch as a slider even though statcast calls it a cut fastball. Is there a criteria for screwballs that Devin Williams's doesn't meet?
@@TheEloheim I think that there's no automatic classification for screwball since they're so rare. My guess is they specifically planned it for Honeywell's because it was well known that he threw one
The only thing that Devin William's changeup might have different from a "true" screwball is drop caused by active spin.
The big difference between sliders and curveballs is the amount of drop from active spin, with a curveball having a spin axis more strongly angled downwards to cause them to drop much further (along with curves usually having a higher active spin percentage, but that's not always the case), with the slider's drop largely coming simply because it doesn't have much or any backspin based on the active component of its spin axis being largely horizontal. Similarly the difference between a "true" screwball and a circle change with good movement is that a screwball has a spin axis tilted down far enough to actively push the ball down, just like a curveball does, while a circle change has a more horizontal spin axis that is almost purely side-spin with the drop coming solely from a lack of backspin.
A screwball also generally would also have a higher spinrate than a changeup, in the same way that a curveball has a higher average spinrate than a slider. Curveballs have an average spinrate right around 2600 RPM with a common range from ~1900-3250 while sliders have an average spinrate of around 2450 RPM with a common range from ~1800-3000 RPM. Changeups have even less spin, only ~1750 RPM on average and a common range from ~1,250-2,350.
Something with a noticeably down spin axis, angled towards the arm side, and a 2,200+ RPM spin rate would definitely classify as a screwball if it was an automatic pitch category for Statcast. It's just too different from the average change-up to be classified as the same pitch, especially when much more similar pitches (such as the cutter and slider) exist with separate classifications.
@@Pretzulkj Thanks for all the detailed info! Tbh i had no idea the analogy between circle change/screwball and slider/curveball held so well.
The last pitchers I remember throwing really good screwballs were Tug McGraw and Fernando Valenzuela. I think the "common wisdom" is that throwing a screwball puts a lot more strain and stress on the arm than other pitches....although in this age of young pitchers getting "preventative" Tommy John Surgery, I don't know what that should matter.
A partial explanation: some pitchers have learned to grip a changeup to move the same way as a screwball, and, there is a theory that the screwball is easy to spot due to the arm motion
I think there are just more effective pitches now-a-days. You can get similar movements with change-ups, 2-seams, and even some splitters.
Exactly. Just look at Greg Maddox's circle change. It moved a lot like a screwball, he was pinpoint accurate with it and never had any major arm problems. So why throw a screwball?
@@hoanpham4545 roger clemens 20 k game best screw splutter ever
@@ethanniedorowski116 Check out Shane McClanahan's splitter. He calls it a change up but it's a splitter....
@@hoanpham4545 he prolly learned a split change, they are all over the mlb rn
Theres a great passage in the Bill James/Rob Neyer book of pitchers that really explained the issue here. Its a combo of the stress put on the arm but more importantly the development of the circle change that effectively works similarly but with far less stress on the arm.
Masa Yamamoto 山本昌 in Japanese baseball threw the screw ball as a main arsenal and had a career in there until age 50. It was actually taught by Fernando when they met in the US.
Something to throw the stone at the argument on longevity. He does claim that he cannot lift his left arm after the retirement though.
That's probably just as much to do with doing one thing for however long he played for as a particular pitch.
Tyvm for covering this subject. Since I was 5 yrs old and got my 1st glove for Christmas I've been mildly obsessed with the mechanics of pitches. But especially the knuckle and the screwball. And I desperately wanted to b a pitcher growing up Unfortunately I wasn't blessed with a golden arm...well...that's not true exactly. I was a helluva catcher. But I taught pitchers on my team how to grip and throw a lot of different pitches. But got in trouble for showing guys how to throw a screwball. My coach was my coach in football, basketball, and baseball. From freshmen yr til I graduated. I starting getting in trouble my sophomore yr. So he suggested over summer break I stay with his family and help him work on the house he was gonna flip. And I did. And he watched like a hawk and worked me like a rented mule. I don't think he was ever genuinely mad at me. Disappointed, maybe. But he was furious at me for showing guys how throw all those pitches. He said at our stage in growing up and muscle development and all that kinda stuff would Irreversibly b damaged trying to throw anything but fastballs and change ups. And anything side arm. What no one knew at the time that my school was axing the baseball&softball teams after that yr. We were pretty terrible...lol. The other 2 sports were still around so it wasn't to awful 😆
I only played a couple of years when I was in middle school and one of our pitchers knew how to throw a slider, it was illegal in my league because of what you mention but we sneaked a couple in two strike counts, it was so fun to get swings and misses, the umpire would tell us that we shouldn't use it lol, fun memories but it probably wasn't a good idea.
I absolutely love this video. it's well said and well documented that the screwball has almost always been the dark deviant pitch that destroys careers and ruins arms. I fell in love with the movement and rareness of the pitch when I was a kid and absolutely obsessed over the history and lore of it. I threw it as a teenage kid playing AAU and USSSA ball and I always felt that I had to hide the name screwball and always said it was my "open handed change up" or circle change. Obviously I never played or pitched professionally but it's funny thinking back on it nowadays. The fact that a kid playing rec-league & traveling youth baseball, I felt so scared to call it what it TRULY was, a screwball! ✌❤
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Can you do a video on the knuckleball? I feel like analytics have killed the knuckleball and there is still value in a good knuckleball.
There is a very good documentary on that called "Knuckleball!" (2012). I'm pretty sure if you can stream it for free online
The issues with the knuckleball are 1) Most catchers aren't good at catching them because 2) Even the pitcher often has just a general idea of where the ball is going to go. When it works, it's borderline impossible to make solid contact. When it doesn't... well watch Tim Wakefield's games where he gave up a ton of home runs. There were a lot of them.
A knuckleball is actually a fingernail ball. As you throw it all four fingers are gripping the ball with the tips of the fingers...it looks like a shriveled up spider. Your knuckles are pressed into the ball surface but the tips and nails do the work. Then as you release it you flick your fingers in the same motion it takes to flick water at someone. You throw with a fastball motion and upon reaching release point flicking your fingers stops the rotation. This allows air to pass over the seams inconsistently causing the ball to bob and weave erratically.
@@ryanchase9332 This. Tim Wakefield being brought into the bottom half of a tie game in extra innings during game 7 of the 2003 ALCS stands out to me as one of the craziest decisions a manager has made. I'm a Yankees fan. I benefited from it. I still think its a nutball decision. It really is an all or nothing approach. If the movement isn't there, the pitcher may as well be throwing bp.
Try to find video footage of Gaylord Perry. He was a master of the dark arts and the knuckleball .
Key to pitching is not a fast ball but movement, location, changing speeds!! Batters can hit a pitch, no matter how fast, if they know what’s coming!
I've been a sub for a while and I gotta say, your channel is turning into one of the best baseball channels on YT in how you bring up great players from the past who might otherwise not be as widely remembered. Keep up the great content, brother!
Pretty sure what scared everybody was those old pictures of Carl Hubbell's bent arm. I unwittingly taught myself the screwball as a kid. Also I happened across a cutter as well. My problem is I never had any velocity as I grew to make the movement matter, I topped out at about 70mph.
My pitching career ended in Little League when my coach wouldn't let me take the mound despite promising me in nearly every practice that he would. His son was a pitcher, and he was pretty good so he was always our starting (and closing since we only played 6 innings, I think?) pitcher in every game. The problem I had was that I was genuinely pretty good, and the coach even took notice which is why he kept telling me he was going to give me a shot "in the next game". The last straw was when it came down to the final two games of the season and our team was already out of contention for the LL tournament, so winning and losing literally didn't matter. Guess who pitched both of those games? The only good part of that memory is watching my Dad (who is one of the most non-confrontational people on the planet) stand up from the bleachers to walk down to the dugout to give the coach a piece of his mind. After he yelled at coach, he asked if I wanted to leave without playing the final game and I said hell yes!
Do you have the velo now?
@@miscellaneousproductions oh heck no, that was my early 20's, that was over 30 years ago. My shoulder had some issues way back then as well.
@@philobeddoe8342 Oh
I had velocity I could throw over 80mph as a Sophmore in HS. Coach every season would always give me a tryout at pitching and I'd throw 3 heaters down the middle of the plate and the 4th pitch about 3 feet over the catchers head. Coach said if I let you pitch your gonna kill somebody. I'm left handed and was forced into centerfield my entire 9 years of playing ball. Except one strange occurance during the allstar game they had too many lefties or something and I played 2nd base for first and only time of my life. That was a rush!
8:54. Dude. Fernando Valenzuela’s career was famously derailed because of recurring shoulder injuries. Do some actual research instead of looking at his Baseball Reference page and assuming he never got hurt because he played a long time. Doesn’t necessarily mean the injuries were because of the screwball, but that’s a pretty important piece of info to completely whiff on.
In 1980 we lived a partial lie. #1 Valenzuela wasn't 20yr old.. he was probably 30yr. #2, Leftys who throw in the low 90s are already nasty. Adding a screwgy should be on the same page as steroids . I'm old and have loved this game for 52 yrs.. I was a catcher. That screwball is hard to catch. Moves like a curve ball thrown by a right hander (if the pitcher is left handed). Only Fernando threw it 88mph. That's really really filthy nasty. Like I said, Fernando was at least 10yrs older then we think (no birth certificate). So he pitched in the big leagues until he was 46yrs. Not 36yrs.. Fernando was a super stud! When he retired he threw 8 pitches. His fastball was only 80mph. And he still won games. In My opinion Fernando is one of the greatest left handers all-time. Lasorda rode him hard. He threw a ton of innings every season.
The only pitch that *won't* potentially lead to repetitive stress injuries is the knuckler.
Fastballs and change-ups are fine too if you're not putting every last ounce of strength into it. Guys throwing 82-90 rarely have these problems.Of course only the ones with Maddox like control are successful at that
@@wingracer1614 that was pretty much exactly what and who i was thinking.
@wingracer 16 When you throw in in the 85-92 mph range, you can also get away with problematic mechanics for longer than you would if you threw 95+. If you throw 100 with Verlander's mechanics (not counting either time someone tried to get him away from his long-arm mechanics), you'll be far more durable than if you're throwing 100 with Syndergaard's or Degrom's mechanics. You'll be far more durable throwing 100 with Nolan Ryan's or Randy Johnson's mechanics than you would be throwing 95-98 with Mark Prior's mechanics. It's not just how hard you throw. How you throw hard is a far bigger factor into your injury risk.
Screwballers were always a special breed amongst pitchers-like knuckleballers. The difference is that unlike the knuckleball, which is actually the least damaging pitch on the arm, the screwball is the worst. You either master the screwball or you might as well give up because the wear and tear on the arm isn't worth the sacrifice. I think most pitchers today are so drawn to the fabulous riches a prosperous baseball career could provide that they are unwilling to jeopardize it for a screwball.
4:47
Mathewson won 373 games.
My dad knows how to throw it but he would never show anyone because it can cause pain, he’s double jointed
It's easy for some and painful for others. Wrist bend and arm angle is the same as the curve, but instead of bending the wrist in towards the body, bend it outward, as if doing an egyptian pose. Snap the ball downward as you would the curve.
Double jointed literally and physically doesnt exist🤣
@@cmlr22 so what would it actually be?
@@frankie9_9 Joint Hypermobility Syndrome
If you keep your wrist relaxed in a neutral position (showing the ball to 3rd base when your arm is up for a rhp), it shouldn't cause pain.
Overthrowing is the problem. Not the pitch.
Why is that?
a long, long, long, time ago! Mathewson- has the best numbers of any right-handed NL pitcher. He won 373 games not 273 in the ML. Big mistake. He was also gassed in World War one in France. That ultimately contributed to his downfall and early death from TB. King Carl Hubbell was a HOFer himself and a famous Screwballer. Both NY Giants BTW. Remember baseball, may it RIP, it's NOT played anymore, too many rule changes since Posey's ankle got blown up and the owners went crazy trying to make baseball a non-contact sport - like badmitten! When I was a kid I watched Marichal go 15 innings against the Mets and lose. What was unusual was the fact that he usually owned the Mets. I watched Wibur Wood start both games of a double header. Too bad it had to end this way...it really is.
The Screwball is a very difficult pitch to throw due to the unnatural twisting of the arm. Also, it began to lose its favor just as Mike Scott’s success of the Split-fingered fastball allowed for it to become more of a popular pitch to throw, the difference is that instead of an off-speed pitch, the split-fingered is thrown more like a fastball, but with similar movement to the screwball. Plus, most pitchers will find it easier to throw a fastball pitch much more than an off speed pitch.
i think the knuckle must be the most difficult grip to master. i bet knuckleball success theory has directives on optimal fingernail length and sharpness... it would make sense...
i am not a pitcher but i have a hard time understanding how a mild twist of the elbow and wrist could be all that hard to incorporate into essentially a changeup delivery
Great video. But we want Willie! 1984 CY and MVP Guillermo Willie Hernandez who featured a screwball.
great video and thorough research. another noteworthy pitcher who was a frequent user of the circle change, who gave it what looked a lot like screwball action, was jamie moyer. he used it rather sparingly but i'm fairly sure that archived video would prove that he used it sometimes. didn't seem to bring his career to an early end either...
and the only thing keeping hector santiago out of mlb is his ped suspension. he was effective for the mariners until he was suspended.
and on that note, i have suspected for years that felix hernandez would sometimes use a shuuto/splitfinger grip on his "changeup".... it had so much movement, not unlike devin williams' pitch.
My natural pitch growing up was a screwball. I had trouble throwing a curve because it seemed unnatural. Never had arm issues and always had good velocity. The problem with todays pitchers is clearly too much dependence on velocity and not enough attention to how to pitch.
there just enough pitches that already have similar movement such as a 2-seam or a changeup
Proper pitching mechanics are conducive to gaining velocity on principle… so not really sure what you mean by there being a difference between the two
You can get a pretty good screwball effect sidearm. You use a split finger grip. You can, as you release it, either snap your fingers along the front of the ball (pulling it across the body like a curve) or along the back of the ball, which gives it a screwball movement. For the curve version, you can also roll the pointer over the ball to get it to drop faster, or not, to make it come up and break away like a rising fastball.
By adjusting how tightly you hold the ball you can adjust either one to give up speed for rotation.
A good circle change thrown from a sidearm arm or very low 3/4 arm slot will have the same spin axis of a screwball, because you took a circle change (largely horizontal spin from a vertical arm slot) and rotated it 45-90 so it's now pointed down and away instead of just away.
Sidearm doesn't have the arsenal so nobody will fall for it unless you are playing whiffle ball.
Right, so why the F does anyone believe a fastball is the only way??... Why??? the goal is to get guys out if you're on the mound and you can do that many ways if you're intelligent..... I mean it blows my mind...
It actually is exciting to see a screwball live pitch, even more when it gets hit bc it's so rare.. when it gets knocked.. that's beautiful hitting. All mechanics, optics & response timing is working.
My screwball is a circle change with a little more twist. Nice video.
I threw a screwball all though high school and my coaches made me stop once I got to college because they were afraid I was going to hurt my arm. I lost my best pitch and even though I don’t think I was going to the big leagues I do think I was good enough with that pitch to at least get drafted and play some minor league ball. Unfortunately that didn’t happen.
I was a very average pitcher in high school. My fastball velocity wasn't there, the break on my change and curve were decent, but nothing special. I mainly played first base and was on the team because of my hitting abilities. The reason why I was allowed to pitch at all was because Valenzuela was my favorite pitcher growing up, and I messed with the screwball as soon as my dad gave me the okay to start throwing pitches other than a fastball. I had a good freshman and sophomore season pitching in the limited attempts I was given. The kids didn't even really know what the pitch was. After that season, the coach told me if I improved the velocity on my fastball just a little, I would be the main starter going into junior year. At that point, I really wasn't committed to baseball fully, but that conversation had me thinking about it. Sadly, I ended up hurting my elbow that summer....playing tennis against my brother. Needless to say, that was it for my baseball career. That injury really sucked, because it gave me the yips, big time. To this day, I can't even have a catch with someone, let alone pitch. It didn't affect my ability to hit, though, which is something, I suppose.
11:54 Devin Williams - Circle Change / Screwball
Christy Mathewson won THREE hundred and seventy three games (not 273 as stated in the video). BIG difference.
Props for mentioning the "post hoc" fallacy. I always feel super smart when I mention anything Latin.
The split fingered fast ball is an easier pitch to throw, and is much more effective than the screwball.
@breadandcircuses8127 Throwing a screwball is similar to throwing a curve ball except the arm is twisted in the opposite direction, which is awkward and very difficult to do. The split fingered fastball has a very similar motion but it is thrown just like a fast ball, only that the finger placement on the baseball is different.
Cristy Mathewson stopped pitching because of an accident with mustard gas during the end of the First World War. It’s also the same thing that led to his early death. Just figured I should point that out.
I learned how to throw a screwball last year and it is now one of my best pitches
This an amazing video. I throw fast and hard and found that the screw ball pitch is the best control workout and fortified side to side muscles, and does not weaken. I got faster and more accurate. As well, the old guys used it for the same reason. Throwing a standard curve ball is the damage caused. That is why starters now only go 6 innings. ..????
The knuckleball has also been phased out. I threw a 2 seamer, changeup, screwball, knuckler, and curve back in the day. I learned to throw a sinker, but rarely threw it. I had college offers for scholarships for football and baseball, but went into the Army. I was an all around athlete. Constant fastballs can be worse on the arm than a screwball. It's not all about the pitch, but mechanics too. If you notice, most pitchers that need TJS throw at a 3/4 angle, instead of overshoulder.
this video makes me happy. I couldn't figure out how to throw a curveball until I was 18, but I figured out a screwball at 15, it helped me have one of the lowest ERAs in my division in high school at just under .4 as a closer
I threw the Screwball a lot playing ball in college. The fact is it ripped apart my tendons in my arm. That's why know one uses it anymore.
It's because with pitch counts and deep bullpens NOBODY PITCHES anymore....everyone is taught to throw as hard as they can for the short duration of their "outing"....just because you CAN throw 100mph, doesn't mean you SHOULD on every pitch....
Snapping a curve ball is just as hard on your arm as a screwball. I was always told the must unnatural for your arm is to just throw a baseball. Bring back the knuckle ball
'This wasn't the rockies versus diamondbacks'. I've never been so offended by something I completely agree with!
I would also love to see the returns of the knuckleball and forkball.
Especially for those pitchers who might have every ability to make the majors but maybe they just can't throw the fastball at 97-100 mph, so they keep trying to bulk up to get more arm strength. Which puts more pressure on those tendons in the elbows and shoulders.
And the argument of well...catchers have a hard time catching the knuckleball isn't a valid argument. You can always have a catcher spend time in the off season with a pitcher learning how to catch the pitch.
But for those borderline players...the ones who might never see the big leagues or stick at that level...it is worth it to develop these pitches and see if they can get really good at them.
Phil and Joe Neikro, whatever one thinks of them...had great careers being knuckleball specialists.
Tim Wakefield, same thing.
Gregg Maddux used the Forkball. Didn't have an electric fastball, but his control and and ability to use his off speed pitches effectively, made him one of the true greats of the game.
Yes. Learning some of these pitches too young can lead to issues later on. But, in high school or college or in the minor leagues...this is where one should be learning what to employ into one's arsenal.
Not everyone gets blessed with an electric fastball.
But one can still have a hell of a career if they learn how to pitch and not just throw.
Good video.
Informative video. The curveball and slider feature unnatural arm motions as well--but they don't seem to get blamed for any UCL issues.
For a European unfamiliar with this sport .. this was actually interesting. It just popped up in my YT feed. Cool video essay.
Cheers 🍺
The screwball isn’t dead! My mii throws a mean one
Mike Marshall knew the body and that's good enough for me. baseball is still in the burning people at the stake era just because they don't toe their antiquated line. overextended arm release points are the cause of wrecked elbows, period. the screwball and sinker "pronated" motion are the least damaging to elbow releases.
I could throw a screwball, but stopped because of the twinge I'd feel in my elbow when I did. Then I discovered I could get the same effect by merely changing how my top two fingers were positioned on the seams (on the seams, rather than across the seams) with a fastball motion. The pitch would drop off the table and in to the hitter. The Mariners' Felix Hernandez had a 'change-up' that he threw in the low 90s (his fastball was in the high 90s) that did the same thing.
Felix Hernandez' changeup was largely just a backwards slider. It had identical vertical drop as his slider (with 2 inches of the same in every season tracked by Statcast) and the same velocity (within 2mph on every Statcast season) but 2-3x more horizontal movement that went in the opposite direction of his slider's horizontal movement.
It worked so well because he had two pitched that looked identical out of the hand and en route to the batter (same velocity and same vertical drop profile) but would end up 15" apart from one another horizontally by the time they reached the plate. His 4-seam and sinker worked well together for the same reason, they were thrown at the same velocity and despite his sinker not actually sinking very much (only 3-5" more drop than his fastball, which would look very similar to batters out of the hand and en route to the plate) it would move 10+ inches more horizontally than the 4 seamer.
The secret to great pitchers has always been an arsenal of different pitches that look identical until it's too late for the batter to react. If the velocity and vertical drop are the same, then the horizontal break will be massively different. The trick is pitches that are as similar as possible in 2 out of 3 categories to make them hard for batters to identify/distinguish, but VERY different in the third category to fool batters (whether it be on vertical drop, horizontal movement, or swing timing).
@@Pretzulkj Yes, that is why I wrote 'change-up', The announcers always called it that, but clearly that wasn't what it was.
Now, another Mariner pitcher; Mark Langston, there was a change-up.
@@patricksullivan4329 yeah, I totally agree with you. Just was adding details on the specifics of what made his “change-up” different from the norm for others who were reading the comment chain!
You left out the last rookie to win 20 games. He also threw a perfect game. Almost had three....Tom Browning.
The screwball just paid you for this puff piece! It IS EVIL!
Seriously though, I like these deep dive videos about pitches. Really informative and excellent work! I'd like to see one about the mythical Gyroball!
Mike Cuellar was a multi-season 20 game winner for the Orioles in the 70s and won a Cy Young Award. He was well known for throwing the screwball.
And my father known him and this can of pitch hurt your arm,Cuellar never was a power pitcher,for this reason he can extended his career a little bit
@@axelagosto5196 Any pitch can hurt your arm if you throw it wrong. If you follow the "rule" of showing the ball to 2nd, a screwball (as well as a circle change) will hurt. Thrown properly, a screwball is easier on your arm than a curveball or fastball. Keeping the wrist relaxed and neutral (showing to 3rd for RHP and 1st for LHP) is far easier on the arm in general.
I trained with Marshall for several years and still use the wrist weights. This is a great tribute to a great pitch.
Would rather watch infomercials than a baseball game but I enjoy the hell out of these types of videos.
I like that random footage of that infamous A's pinch-runner getting picked off. Unless I'm mistaken, that guy never actually hit or played the field at all. He was a pure professional baserunner, for like a week.
My father blew out his arm in high school. I took to baseball quickly, preliminarily as a catcher. Then, I realized I couldn't hit...as a switch hitter, from the left all contact, from the right all power...anyway, by the start of junior league, Dear Ol' Dad decided to teach me to pitch. I was cranking a solid 72+ mph at 11, with some issues with command. By 13, I had a fastball of 77mph, a nasty drop curve, a knuckleball, circle change...and then, Dear Ol Dad noticed aspects of my delivery & taught me the screwball. I had an awesome run, 3 starts in a row. I had started the day before, my squad was getting demolished, so I was brought in to finish things out - pitch to contact, mercy rule, etc - on my second pitch, a screwball, I blew out my elbow & tore my rotator cuff. A poor kid, in a fading midwest city, no such thing as "healthcare" Tryouts at 14? I could barely reach the plate. A wash up. For years I blamed my pops, fell into cliched addictions early & eventually made peace with it, but I'd swear, I'd be retired - a small time draft bust, but paid lol.
Matthewson had the right idea. Throw it enough so that hitters had to worry about it, but dont throw it so much that it hurts your arm.
Reminds me of the curve ball talk when I was a kid. Everyone told us not to throw it or it will kill our arm
As someone who threw out both of his shoulders in swimming(and water polo) many times, I get throwing out one's shoulder for the extra speed it could provide dislocating one's shoulder or wrist depending on sport. Both of my shoulders dislocate of command from swim and my left wrist (lefty) dislocates on command for extra command at distance. I'm only 26 and have noticed pain in all 3 joints but still experience excellent flexibility and strength in them despite the minor pain that has come over time.
As a kid I used to throw the screwball a lot. I loved the way it broke. One day I was playing a long-distance game of catch with a friend and I cranked off a huge screwball without warming up first...OUCH! Major elbow pain. I never threw anything again. At 13, my baseball career was over. It was probably due to poor warmup, and not the screwball especially, but as a kid we didn't purposely warmup. We just threw the ball with abandon. I had quite an arm before that and none after that.
I bet if you had gotten some recovery and practiced flexibility, you could have bounced back.
I remember watching John Franco and how he mastered the pitch. The knuckleball is on the chopping block. Nobody tries to master these oddball pitches anymore. I think Wakefield was the last pure knuckleballer. I miss seeing oddities in the repitore.
bruh what? r.a. dickey was the last true knuckleballer
@@buckteelios1459 no bruh, he wasnt. He threw his knuckleball 60% of the time. His knuckler was 1 of a 4 pitch repitore. If you grew up watching Charlie Hough, Phil Niekro, and to a lesser degree Tom Candiotti, a true knuckleballer pitches a knuckleball. Not a slider. Not a curve. It's a knuckleball with the possibility of 2 or 3 "fastballs" in the 65-70mph range.
Knuckleballers have a horrible spin rate.
The guy that pitched for Baltimore recently. Was the last one I think.🤔 Mickey I think was his name.
@@buckteelios1459 Wasn't Steven Wright also a knuckleballer, too?
Regarding the studies Marshall conducted and which this video references at 7:57:
1. They aren't "easily accessible"? If they're *at all* accessible, why not look at them? Who has access to them?
2. Why did he single out the elbow to study when there are other injurable parts of the pitching arm?
"I've known a lot of screwball pitchers, but not a lot of pitchers that threw screwballs."
I played the out field and I needed Tommy John so don’t blame the pitch every arm is different
Fernando Valenzuela paid a steep price during his incredible rookie season in 1981. At just 20 years old, he threw 8 consecutive complete games to start the season-something unheard of in modern baseball. He led the league with 11 complete games, highlighting the heavy workload he faced at such a young age and the long-term toll it took on his career...yes. he was the nasty screwball ever.
It's nice to see the way a computer (or whatever) is used to show ball action. Man, some of those pitches dropped like a rock.
"My arm hurts. Must be from that one singular type of pitch and not years of throwing at 95MPH" lmao
How old was Carl Hubbell when he stopped pitching again? And how many wins did Christy Mathewson have? This obsession with velocity has ruined _far_ more arms than the screwball ever did. I'd chalk their problems up to overuse far more than the mechanics of the screwball.
When I was learning/using my screwball, I noticed that my elbow would occassionally buckle very slightly during the follow through. It was barely noticeable and didn't hurt but I started thinking about what would happen if one were to go five to ten years or more leaning heavily on the pitch. I concluded that all of those slight buckles would probably add up to a good bit of damage and were likely the culprit for arm trouble for many screwballers. I never went betond college ball but from the point in high school where I noticed the buckle I made a conscious effort to keep that elbow bent through out the follow through and never had any discomfort from it. In fact, I could feel my regular curve in my elbow much more than the screwgie.
I initially learned it by accident. I started with a modified 2-seam grip labeled as a sinker in Tom Seaver's book. Figuring out how to throw it without pain was how I learned that the advice to show the ball to 2nd base is complete BS and getting pitchers hurt. I had a lot less arm pain in general once I figured that out.
All right you’ve convinced me, if you see me in the majors in a few years throwing a screwball, you know it worked.
watched this entire video and attempted to throw one
hurt my (admittedly already weak) wrist on the first throw lmao
ive never played baseball in my life tho
I remember John Smoltz saying ok MLB Network "The slider is the most dangerous pitch for a pitcher". Nobody speaks of a slider as an arm blower...
yes they do that's why barely any youth players throw a slider, they throw a curve
I've never pitched before (I was an OF), but I used to mess around in HS with different pitches during warm-ups. While the screwball has an awkward--almost tight--feel to it. It feels as though your forearm isn't supposed to rotate in that direction. However, it's this "tightness" that makes it seem like you're less likely to throw out your arm like you can with a curveball.
The screwball has been gone for so long now, but UCL injuries have doubled. Coincidence?
this was my bread and butter in HS.. threw a a splitter that broke opposite as my 2nd. never was able to develop a 3rd pitch
Screwball + knuckleball = unstoppable
Honestly bro this is an intense ass video lol so much information at once. Pretty cool and good job. I only got about 7 minutes through though
made the cut has most of my screen time
Thoroughly enjoyed and learned a lot from this video.
Great video!
Yeah I remember people claiming that it's all about elbow injuries. Well, it's been proven time and time again that higher velocity tends to lead to higher frequency of injury. Case in point: pitching in the 21st century.
In fact, I remember an MLB Network clip where Harold Reynolds was asking Trevor Bauer what he had discovered about pitcher injuries. Reynolds was trying to bait him into responding with some sort of breaking ball, but of course, Bauer answered that it was velocity. And then Reynolds acted all dumb and went like, "Oh, well yeah!" For one particular reason, that clip is forever ingrained in my head because it just goes to show. Some people's biases never go away.
You explained the pronating motion completely backwards and you showed the wrong video when explaining. Curves and sliders have you turn your thumb away from your body. Changeups and screwballs have you pronate inward - your index finger turns down to the glove side
I didn’t expect to see my 11th grade economics teacher Mr. Gurney in this video at 4:18 LMAO
One of the consistent stories about Mathewson learning the screwball was from Rube Foster. Some places credit Rube with inventing it.
After learning that there was a softball pitcher who clocked in at 149 MPH, pitched until he was in his sixties, never slowing down, I'm convinced that what MLB needs to do is switch to underhanded pitches. They're much less hard on the joints and potentially just as fast and can spin just as much. Most underhanded baseball pitchers (it used to be a thing up until the early 1900's) were able to pitch complete double headers multiple days in a row without their arms falling off. The overhanded pitchers were never able to do that, especially once they started throwing the really fast balls starting in the 1920's.
with williams, could u say that because u can get that similar arm side run with a circle change, 2 seamer/sinker, and even some splitters(depending on arm slot and release) with higher speeds, using a “traditional” screwball would be obsolete?
I don’t think the screwball is “dead” per say, more so it’s evolved into a changeup. I think if someone from the 30’s or 40’s saw a modern day changeup they would call it a screwball because back then the only thing that was considered a changeup would’ve been something like a palm ball
@@zacheray some pitchers use pronation to create extreme arm side run on their changeups. Devin Williams is the main guy for this but there are others like Eli Morgan, Trevor Richards, Aaron Ashby, etc. I think the fate of the screwball is similar to that of the forkball which also became a bit of a dead pitch after the invention of the splitter
One could argue that the screwball action as such is not needed if you can throw a sinker or a good change-up that fades, or even a fastball that you get on the other side of so that it rides away from the arm side of the pitcher. You don't really need to turn the ball all the way over like a true screwball, which can be difficult to get a feel for.
I naturally throw in a curve back towards my dominant hand. I’ve pinned it down to my mechanics as I have a 3/4 level release. My wrist naturally turns the ball that direction and I have never had issues. I had more problems with blowing and tendentious in my forearm
This same argument can be made for the submarine delivery. A lot of the notable submarine pitchers led their league in appearances, kent tekalve even made an argument that because it's the natural arm slot that it's better
yea, submarine is good for you arm, its just difficult to control for lots of people