I know this long format and topic won't be a high view count as a more trendy topic but I really appreciate this content. Seems to be some actual journalism that simply content creation which is truly missed. Thank you.
I could listen to Hans Heim for an hour solid or more. That man shared huge insights between American and Asian manufacturing with true manufacturing knowledge. Obviously a brilliant business mind to be proficient in both disciplines. Also really enjoyed Anne Hed and their history, they're such kings in American composite manufacturing. Great episode Ben!
Mr. Heim @ Ibis is the first industry insider I've seen or heard (in UA-cam vids, at least) discussing and innovating regarding how to increase manufacturing efficiency in order to reduce the cost of carbon fiber frames/components. Everyone else in industry is spending R&D $$ on innovating aero shape, weight, brake tech, tire tech, wheel width, ceramic bearings/pulleys blah blah blah, for ever diminishing speed gains. That's why bike prices have been skyrocketing for years. I'm waiting in the wings (while riding and enjoying my entry-ish aluminum bike from 2018) for a low to mid-level carbon framed bike to become the same or close in price as all the AL versions. I'd jump on that in heart-beat. I hope he can apply this new tech and gain competitive advantage and it is noticed by others in industry (on the road bike side, which is what I enjoy, to each their own of course).
As an Ibis owner, I really enjoyed the discussion with Hans who is a legend in the bike world. I wonder what the new bike is they have planned for the factory that he mentioned?
Great content here Ben. Interesting to hear about the origins of HED and the future potential plans from Ibis, excited to see what that new higher volume production bike might be.
Great interview with everyone. I'd love an Allied BC40 Frame set. But, those are way overpriced in my opinion. I feel they are missing a huge market as they are just priced out of the everyday purchaser like me. 😟
@ They have their own extrusion and form and drill on sight Doing a big project with braided carbon still in progress not sure of source of there current carbon rims
@@tommays56Boyd is also bringing their carbon production in house. The Greenville, SC area is becoming a hot spot for carbon production (BMW & Clemson University have a research project driving the technology). Time bicycles are also bringing frame production there and I believe Boyd will be using the same resin transfer process for their carbon.
My bike is a Lynskey Gr 300 made in Tennessee my wheel set is Industry Nine North Carolina my brakes are Paul Klamper California I want as many of my bike parts to be American made we need to support American companies as much as possible
I just got a Lynskey GR300 and was planning on Paul Klamper brakes, Chris King BB, and Chris King Wheels. Might have to look into the Industry Nine wheels. My goal when I bought the frame was also, to have as much American made parts on it as possible.
I'm curious of the prices, also where does the materials come from, etc... TBH I'm in Europe, and many "European" made bikes are just paint or assembled here, frame and parts sourced from Taiwan, etc.
I ride a Chumba made in Austin TX, and use Paul Components for brakes, all made in the USA. My road bike is a Guipago made in Mass. USA. There are plenty of frames of all kinds made in the USA. There is literally no good reason to buy anything but a US made bike if you want a US made product. Velocity rims also made in the US.
Just bought HEDs for my TT bike. Where the rims were made was not actually part of my calculus, but the holiday sale price and lack of a customs duty compared to, say, SwissSide or Parcours played a major role. Consumers and small retail businesses will be hurt the most by tariffs. Off-shore manufacturing will stay off-shore. Those Made in China labels are already being replaced by Made in Indonesia labels, not because of the threat of tariffs, but because Chinese labor is already too expensive.
I try to buy made in the USA whenever possible, but the budget is a big determining factor in my purchase. I think that once they get a manufacturing base started for a few years the prices may start to level out. The early years the companies are just trying to recover some of the startup price of machinery.
Hats off to those manufacturers who kept manufacturing in the USA. As a bike reviewer I guess you can't be overly critical of those manufacturers who offshored theirs. All brands could afford to manufacture in the US, but they chose not to because they can increase profits. Anne Hed spoke beautifully of the reasons to keep manufacturing based in the US, that's a premium I'm willing to pay in the knowledge it's keeping jobs in the USA. If Trump goes through with his tariff plans, I don't think bike manufacturers will have much choice but to return to the US.
If we get a trade war, companies will,do the same as they did in 2018 with round 1 of the tariffs. They just “lobbied” republican politicians and got exemptions for their specific products. That’s exactly what the company I work for did-our china-made products continue to flow as normal.
S&M/Fit still makes BMX frames forks and bars in the U.S. They are traditional chromoly with not many fittings, but extrapolating from their frame prices ($500) and without any bike industry knowledge, I'm thinking a simple classic steel road frame should be able to be made for around $800?
I respect the effort here to make bikes in USA. I'd like to help them, but the cost isnt just a little more, its like double for a mid level race bike. I just can't justify it. Im curious what the sales of these brands are. I wish them success, but i imagine its a tough business.
That is the pickle these brands find themselves in. Allied is the biggest carbon bike brand in the US - and they are tiny compared to a Cannondale or a Trek or a Specialized. There simply aren't any large-scale operations stateside. Cannondale and Trek used to be pretty sizable here, manufacturing wise. Specialized has never made its own bikes.
I have had 3 custom bikes made here in America. I also use HED and Rolf wheels. Praxis cranksets. Paul Components brakes. Ritchey handlebars, Whskey forks. Just wish we had a derailleur company.
Thought I’d throw White Industries & Chris King into this list. Also, Rene Herse in Seattle makes a derailleur… though it’s a pretty unique specialty item.
@@daveanolik8837 When I read your post, I was super enthused. I use RH tires, but hadn't looked at their components. Unfortuneatley, besides the frame having to be designed specifically to attach the derailleur, it only has a 30T max cog size.
It occurred to me that LAL bikes make rear D’s… but they’re in B.C… Sram is a US company, but doesn’t manufacture here. Kinda crazy. Thanks for illuminating.
Kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. You want the workers to male fair wages and have decent standard of living, but the US wastes TRILLIONS on mismanaged healthcare, and colonial militarism. Are we supposed to support those bad choices that artificially make their costs so much higher?
Welcome to the American Boomer’s Capitalist Utopia and shitshow. Boomers who should have retired over twenty years ago and who refuse to pay legit American citizens a fair and liveable wage. #MEGeneration #spendingmykidsinheritance #winning at all costs
When i sold Tr*ks 20yrs ago. Only the cheapest road bike (1000) was made off shore. Every other ally and oclv was made in waterloo. Now only the factory team is ‘sorta’ made here. So when Mary runs for Governor of WI on a jobs platform havin sent most of manuf to asia. Well…glad she lost.
Not true at all. There are a dozen or so CNC-oriented Companies making drivetrain parts, bottom brackets, headsets, suspension, and so forth. I can think of four carbon/composite rim manufacturers and complete wheelset companies in the US.
Sure but I think it's fair to say that those companies are the exception and no the norm. Like even for the companies like Chris King or White Industries that make other components in addition to hubs, I wouldn't be surprised if hubs make up the majority of what they make and sell. Like how many Boone cranks and Ingrid derailleurs do you see out there compared to I9 and Chris King hubs?
I'd also like to know what company is doing MiUSA suspension, cause the only one I know of that's close is Cane Creek, and they aren't MiUSA, they just assemble the parts that are made in Asia
No, not at all! I had a long interview with Jake Pantone for PT 2, which I sent out in full in my newsletter a couple weeks ago. I'll do a factory tour out there at some point.
Years back I ordered a Merlin Sandstone gravel bike - at the time, the frameset was around $2,380 for a custom Ti frameset.....a great deal at the time I thought. Then the d-bag from Knight Manufacturing bought out Merlin and doubled the prices overnight. Not a fan of Phil, who basically told me he was doing me a favor by selling me my bike at the price I originally bought it for instead of his newly inflated prices. There were some issues with the bike, but he's super passive aggressive and I gave up dealing with him. Everyone else at Merlin was great to deal with though. Would go with Moots if I had to do it all over again.
That's certainly an opinion, but not something factual or even objective. What is true is that pricing a product is a lot more complicated than a lot of people think. You're free to buy as you wish, but your choices aren't superior to anyone elses, nor are your preferences or reasons.
@ objectively it’s a ripoff to charge someone for a bike with limited performance capability and uncompetitive weights. It’s hilarious that someone would attempt to defend it. You can make whatever choice you’d like. I don’t think my choices are part of the discussion. I’d say this about any brand charging 7k for a frame that cost 500$ max to make.
@@werb24 Sort of like that new $18,000 steel Colnago. Utterly ridiculous. As raw materials, carbon fiber and steel is not expensive.....yet, prices have risen astronomically. I did a conversion a few years back of cost vs. inflation, and bikes that are cheaper to make overseas cost more now than back when they were made in the U.S. But, people keep buying them, so they'll keep raising the prices.
They could 3-d print bike parts from hemp resin. Strong, light, inexpensive. Pick all three. ua-cam.com/video/srgE6Tzi3Lg/v-deo.htmlsi=j9PhKAqbx7jkFFNL
I know this long format and topic won't be a high view count as a more trendy topic but I really appreciate this content. Seems to be some actual journalism that simply content creation which is truly missed. Thank you.
Thanks!
Mr. Delaney going deep on interesting (and important) topics for our benefit. Kudos Ben!
Thanks, Life Time.
Once a journalist, always a journalist!
Great content, as always.
Cheers
This is some fine journalism.
Thanks, Big Bison.🦬
I love bike industry stuff like this. Thanks for putting this out.
Enjoyed the entire series Ben. Well done!
TIME new CEO announced to open up a new factory in USA, so as from 2025 TIME frames will be also build entirely in America.
South Carolina! Boyd wheels are made here so I hope they come stock on Time bikes!
I could listen to Hans Heim for an hour solid or more. That man shared huge insights between American and Asian manufacturing with true manufacturing knowledge. Obviously a brilliant business mind to be proficient in both disciplines.
Also really enjoyed Anne Hed and their history, they're such kings in American composite manufacturing.
Great episode Ben!
Mr. Heim @ Ibis is the first industry insider I've seen or heard (in UA-cam vids, at least) discussing and innovating regarding how to increase manufacturing efficiency in order to reduce the cost of carbon fiber frames/components. Everyone else in industry is spending R&D $$ on innovating aero shape, weight, brake tech, tire tech, wheel width, ceramic bearings/pulleys blah blah blah, for ever diminishing speed gains. That's why bike prices have been skyrocketing for years. I'm waiting in the wings (while riding and enjoying my entry-ish aluminum bike from 2018) for a low to mid-level carbon framed bike to become the same or close in price as all the AL versions. I'd jump on that in heart-beat. I hope he can apply this new tech and gain competitive advantage and it is noticed by others in industry (on the road bike side, which is what I enjoy, to each their own of course).
As an Ibis owner, I really enjoyed the discussion with Hans who is a legend in the bike world. I wonder what the new bike is they have planned for the factory that he mentioned?
Great content here Ben. Interesting to hear about the origins of HED and the future potential plans from Ibis, excited to see what that new higher volume production bike might be.
Great interview with everyone. I'd love an Allied BC40 Frame set. But, those are way overpriced in my opinion. I feel they are missing a huge market as they are just priced out of the everyday purchaser like me. 😟
You can say that you can't afford the frame set but don't claim they are overpriced without knowing the profit margin and the overhead.
Would be cool to see you chatting with the China Cycling UA-cam channel and Panda Podium owner!
Great content Ben!
Boyd Wheels South Carolina
Love my Boyd wheels!
Do they manufacture the parts or just assemble the parts purchased from others?
@
They have their own extrusion and form and drill on sight
Doing a big project with braided carbon still in progress not sure of source of there current carbon rims
@@tommays56Boyd is also bringing their carbon production in house. The Greenville, SC area is becoming a hot spot for carbon production (BMW & Clemson University have a research project driving the technology). Time bicycles are also bringing frame production there and I believe Boyd will be using the same resin transfer process for their carbon.
My bike is a Lynskey Gr 300 made in Tennessee my wheel set is Industry Nine North Carolina my brakes are Paul Klamper California I want as many of my bike parts to be American made we need to support American companies as much as possible
I just got a Lynskey GR300 and was planning on Paul Klamper brakes, Chris King BB, and Chris King Wheels. Might have to look into the Industry Nine wheels. My goal when I bought the frame was also, to have as much American made parts on it as possible.
I'm curious of the prices, also where does the materials come from, etc...
TBH I'm in Europe, and many "European" made bikes are just paint or assembled here, frame and parts sourced from Taiwan, etc.
Damn Ben knows everyone
I ride a Chumba made in Austin TX, and use Paul Components for brakes, all made in the USA. My road bike is a Guipago made in Mass. USA. There are plenty of frames of all kinds made in the USA. There is literally no good reason to buy anything but a US made bike if you want a US made product. Velocity rims also made in the US.
Who in America makes a groupset comparable to Shimano or SRAM?
Just bought HEDs for my TT bike. Where the rims were made was not actually part of my calculus, but the holiday sale price and lack of a customs duty compared to, say, SwissSide or Parcours played a major role.
Consumers and small retail businesses will be hurt the most by tariffs. Off-shore manufacturing will stay off-shore. Those Made in China labels are already being replaced by Made in Indonesia labels, not because of the threat of tariffs, but because Chinese labor is already too expensive.
Thanks for the video!!
I try to buy made in the USA whenever possible, but the budget is a big determining factor in my purchase. I think that once they get a manufacturing base started for a few years the prices may start to level out. The early years the companies are just trying to recover some of the startup price of machinery.
Hats off to those manufacturers who kept manufacturing in the USA. As a bike reviewer I guess you can't be overly critical of those manufacturers who offshored theirs. All brands could afford to manufacture in the US, but they chose not to because they can increase profits. Anne Hed spoke beautifully of the reasons to keep manufacturing based in the US, that's a premium I'm willing to pay in the knowledge it's keeping jobs in the USA. If Trump goes through with his tariff plans, I don't think bike manufacturers will have much choice but to return to the US.
If we get a trade war, companies will,do the same as they did in 2018 with round 1 of the tariffs. They just “lobbied” republican politicians and got exemptions for their specific products. That’s exactly what the company I work for did-our china-made products continue to flow as normal.
Same here! Also Cane Creek stem and headset
S&M/Fit still makes BMX frames forks and bars in the U.S. They are traditional chromoly with not many fittings, but extrapolating from their frame prices ($500) and without any bike industry knowledge, I'm thinking a simple classic steel road frame should be able to be made for around $800?
Could this be a new Hakka coming? New high volume bike from Ibis...
Great content. I'm confused! People have frames made in Asia? Asking for a Richard Sachs and Allied owner
😜
what about TIME frames in South Carolina? the best , so why not on here? especially for the way they're made and they don't cost the Earth
Made in Europe. The first SC frames aren’t out yet.
Next year it’s supposed to be up a running
Hell yeah, you will love the DAMn!
I respect the effort here to make bikes in USA. I'd like to help them, but the cost isnt just a little more, its like double for a mid level race bike. I just can't justify it. Im curious what the sales of these brands are. I wish them success, but i imagine its a tough business.
That is the pickle these brands find themselves in. Allied is the biggest carbon bike brand in the US - and they are tiny compared to a Cannondale or a Trek or a Specialized. There simply aren't any large-scale operations stateside. Cannondale and Trek used to be pretty sizable here, manufacturing wise. Specialized has never made its own bikes.
Great story
I don"t think envy makes much in the US anymore.
HED!! Never made a carbon clincher b/c they didn’t believe they were safe. Think about that.
WHO'S THE BEST...MADE IN U.S OR MADE IN JAPAN??
Taiwan?
@phonehomephone Italy is the best 😁
Now do bike companies that don't offer bikes fro $15,000.
I have had 3 custom bikes made here in America. I also use HED and Rolf wheels. Praxis cranksets. Paul Components brakes. Ritchey handlebars, Whskey forks. Just wish we had a derailleur company.
Thought I’d throw White Industries & Chris King into this list. Also, Rene Herse in Seattle makes a derailleur… though it’s a pretty unique specialty item.
@@daveanolik8837 When I read your post, I was super enthused. I use RH tires, but hadn't looked at their components. Unfortuneatley, besides the frame having to be designed specifically to attach the derailleur, it only has a 30T max cog size.
It occurred to me that LAL bikes make rear D’s… but they’re in B.C… Sram is a US company, but doesn’t manufacture here. Kinda crazy. Thanks for illuminating.
I struggle with the long talk format of north American explaining. A lot feels like marketing talk instead of straightforward talking.
sounds like an issYOU not an isshim
@@davidvonslingshothold on dawg I gotta talk to you about your use of puns
I agree. Seems like every conversation starts with a recounting of their life history. Even though it has nothing to do with the question.
Kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. You want the workers to male fair wages and have decent standard of living, but the US wastes TRILLIONS on mismanaged healthcare, and colonial militarism. Are we supposed to support those bad choices that artificially make their costs so much higher?
Welcome to the American Boomer’s Capitalist Utopia and shitshow.
Boomers who should have retired over twenty years ago and who refuse to pay legit American citizens a fair and liveable wage.
#MEGeneration
#spendingmykidsinheritance
#winning at all costs
Boyd Cycling
I could be wrong but my understanding is that allied outsourced their frame manufacturing a few months ago
When i sold Tr*ks 20yrs ago. Only the cheapest road bike (1000) was made off shore. Every other ally and oclv was made in waterloo. Now only the factory team is ‘sorta’ made here. So when Mary runs for Governor of WI on a jobs platform havin sent most of manuf to asia. Well…glad she lost.
What do you mean by sorta made here?
Sometimes it feels like the only bike parts really still made in the USA are hubs 😂
Not true at all. There are a dozen or so CNC-oriented Companies making drivetrain parts, bottom brackets, headsets, suspension, and so forth. I can think of four carbon/composite rim manufacturers and complete wheelset companies in the US.
@@petersouthernboy6327 Care to name those 16 or so companies?
Sure but I think it's fair to say that those companies are the exception and no the norm. Like even for the companies like Chris King or White Industries that make other components in addition to hubs, I wouldn't be surprised if hubs make up the majority of what they make and sell. Like how many Boone cranks and Ingrid derailleurs do you see out there compared to I9 and Chris King hubs?
I'd also like to know what company is doing MiUSA suspension, cause the only one I know of that's close is Cane Creek, and they aren't MiUSA, they just assemble the parts that are made in Asia
@@oatmonster: push industries would be the most minusa, but they’re pretty limited in scope. MRP also assembles in US similar to Cane Creek.
Did Enve decline to be on the show today?
No, not at all! I had a long interview with Jake Pantone for PT 2, which I sent out in full in my newsletter a couple weeks ago. I'll do a factory tour out there at some point.
I made halfway 🥱
And everyone of these is an utter ripoff. 7K for a bike frame that is basically a brick with literally no innovation at all is criminal.
Please provide your facts and research to back this statement up.
Years back I ordered a Merlin Sandstone gravel bike - at the time, the frameset was around $2,380 for a custom Ti frameset.....a great deal at the time I thought. Then the d-bag from Knight Manufacturing bought out Merlin and doubled the prices overnight. Not a fan of Phil, who basically told me he was doing me a favor by selling me my bike at the price I originally bought it for instead of his newly inflated prices. There were some issues with the bike, but he's super passive aggressive and I gave up dealing with him. Everyone else at Merlin was great to deal with though. Would go with Moots if I had to do it all over again.
That's certainly an opinion, but not something factual or even objective. What is true is that pricing a product is a lot more complicated than a lot of people think. You're free to buy as you wish, but your choices aren't superior to anyone elses, nor are your preferences or reasons.
@ objectively it’s a ripoff to charge someone for a bike with limited performance capability and uncompetitive weights. It’s hilarious that someone would attempt to defend it. You can make whatever choice you’d like. I don’t think my choices are part of the discussion. I’d say this about any brand charging 7k for a frame that cost 500$ max to make.
@@werb24 Sort of like that new $18,000 steel Colnago. Utterly ridiculous. As raw materials, carbon fiber and steel is not expensive.....yet, prices have risen astronomically. I did a conversion a few years back of cost vs. inflation, and bikes that are cheaper to make overseas cost more now than back when they were made in the U.S. But, people keep buying them, so they'll keep raising the prices.
They could 3-d print bike parts from hemp resin. Strong, light, inexpensive. Pick all three.
ua-cam.com/video/srgE6Tzi3Lg/v-deo.htmlsi=j9PhKAqbx7jkFFNL