Gain Staging Is A Waste Of Time
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- Опубліковано 17 січ 2024
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I'm sure you've heard people yapping on and on about gain staging and just how important of a skill it is if you're looking to mix like a pro. The question is...
Is this even true? I there a "sweet spot" that you should always aim for when recording and setting track levels? Do levels even matter when you're mixing in a DAW with plugins (like most of us are these days)?
In this video, I explain exactly why gain staging (in the way people are thinking about it) is a complete waste of time.
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Great advice! excellent topic, at 7:44 I think maybe the first thing you should reach for is Spectral de-essing or something like what Soothe does, for the guitar and the drums - overheads, and everything should smoothen out so then you can start managing the loudness or pre-amping, gaining, saturations. Once you smoothen out and remove harsh resonances, you can Tube it more or push it louder without hurting or damaging ears with the grating resonances
Good channel thanks
Should you obsess over gain staging? No. Should you completely disregard it? No should you address it? Yes.
Exactly
I think it's no no and no. Who cares about gain staging when you're recording into an interface. Just don't clip and there you go
I only gain stage at my plugins.. that is: make sure the recoding and the plugins dont clip . done. great mixes. never had any complaints. Even had top mastering engineers congratulate me on good mixes. Oh.. and I use cheap-ish interfaces with cheap to medium priced microphones.. i'm naughty ;-)
@@tokenofdevotion you mean no, yes, and no?
@@HR2635so inside the mixer daw.......gainstaging Is basically put at the very First plugin insert, a trim knob at _19 , for every sound?
The input (and often output) level to analog emulation plugins will often profoundly affect the way they sound, this is why gain staging is still a thing even in an all ITB floating point mixer environment. Also fader throw can be a consideration.
The bottom line question is, "Does it sound good?" Yes? Then, the end justifies the means.
Hmmmm, I don't agree with this statement and the only reason I don't is because, what may sound good to one person, may sound thin and not professional to others. I understand the statement but, if you are trying to get great mixes, full sounding and to sound as pro as possible, thinking that way, will not get you there. Learn the tricks of the trade, learn your craft and listen to everything that sounds amazing and find out what they do then implement that to your work. Sooner or later, you will become an amazing producer/mixer etc. I hope you understand.
@PlugMEin Music is subjective, not objective. Bobby here has done well to show that a lot of industry paradigms are not as absolute as some would want us to think. The audience only cares that it sounds good and entertains.
So let me ask, if a kid starting off says this sounds great. Then hears a professional mixed record and says wow, maybe it doesn’t sound that great. Do you tell them “Don’t worry about it, if it sounds good to you, that’s all that matters” or do you say “Hey, you can make it better by doing this and not doing that and that’s a great starting point!”? Just wondering. Does everyone get a trophy?
If you like it, listen to it. If you don't like it, don't listen to it. Fuck me for enjoying something for the sake of enjoying it instead of by how it was made. I'll be over there doing so while you all polish your trophies. Deuces!
@@PlugMEin No one cares if you agree or not because we think it sounds good, you are one person who no one knows or cares to know. So your opinion means absolutely nothing at all just like my opinion so again no one cares if you agree or not. The only thing we care about is if sounds good, you people are doing to much out here and from what I have seen the people that are has no music to begin with, or their music sounds horrible.
“There’s no sweet spots on analog emulation plugins”.
Yes. There is. Many are designed specifically to emulate those sweet spots because they are integral to how you use them creatively. Many plugins this isn’t true for. But when you have a plugin that has built in harmonics in the input gain stage like say many emulations of an 1176, and you have a signal that needs 20dB of boost to start pushing it, you’re introducing much more harmonic distortion into the processing. You will hear it. That’s the point. You should be able to utilize that as a creative tool when you want. You should not tell people it doesn’t matter though.
“I’ve never heard of these concepts before reading them in comments”
Well then they must be crazy because surely new info from your viewers can’t be helpful or true! Right?
“Most people aren’t using analog / tape, so it doesn’t matter”
Analog gear is flying off shelves. This is simply untrue. Hybrid setups are a cornerstone of the industry, especially in pro environments. Aspire to learn how to work in pro environments, not train yourself to create workflows that won’t be cohesive with analog down the line.
Gain staging doesn’t always matter. But it still matters.
It matters through the entire mixing structure
There is a difference between "pointless", and "far less important than in the analog days and only important in very specific situations"
Yeah, as I watched this video and saw the bits about “don’t clip” and “don’t record at TOO low a level,” well, that kind of implies gain staging *isn’t* pointless. But I suppose calling it pointless makes a video more clickable than “don’t obsess over the subject of gain staging.” 🤷♂️
@@digitaldroo ^this
Plugins like the Fairchild, 1176, and Pultec operate at levels around 0vu, -18 rms. You can use the plugins in their sweetspot and control harmonic distortion with good gain staging in the box. This is very easy in Protools. I use clip gain and it takes only 2 seconds on each track.
BS. You see on the meters if you are in the ballpark. Done.
@@whitex4652 Plugin emulations dont always react to dbfs on Daw peak meters. They react better to 0 vu, or RMS. If your Uad 1176 starts compressing even before you push the input on the 1176 its already distorting. Now you cant hit the sweet spot on the output knob that also has harmonic distortion. Theres also a setting in the 1176 to turn off gain reduction and just use the output and input for saturation. Bass, kicks, snares, piano all have different transients. You can read them better with vu, rms meters instead of meters that react to transient peaks.
@@whitex4652shut f up..clearly you don’t know jack ish.
True dat. Most analogue emulations have the sweet spot listed in their documentation.
those plugins came, in some fashion, with an addicrtional input level control and an output level control, exactly for that. That way you can tailor the level for the plugin and not worry about gain staging stuff in the whole project. If not you can add some simple level control before the plugin without degrading the signal in any way. The digital world has some interesting upgrades over analogue.
Love the brutal honesty. too many people focus on trivial unimportant aspects and not the song writing or structure.
Or putting the bassist high enough in the mix so that he can be heard :) (Something that pro studios and producers struggle with immensely, and have for many decades)
I agree that things that you mentioned are very important, but just as important is your ‘process’.
How you get ‘there’.
‘There’ being getting the song from a thought in your brain to a complete mastered song that you and others enjoy.
How important any part of that process is, is subjective. For me, I compose the music first in my songs, so it needs to sound really good to me before I can get comfortable enough with it to write melody and lyrics around it.
If I’m not into it, I’m not going to be as creative. So for me gain staging is a non-issue but for probably alot of people, it’s important to their process that’s why I say just do what gets you ‘there’ no matter what people say.
It’s still important though - after the recording phase. The plugins that emulate analog hardware have requirements on the amount of levels coming in to them to operate the way they’re designed to. My advice is, check the manuals of your plugins first and adjust the level signal going into them accordingly.
This.
This is all subjective too. Taylor Larson(probably one of the best mixing engineers imo) will sometimes clip the shit out of a plugin on the way in. As long as it sounds good.
@@rafsnchz there’s nothing wrong with clipping a plugin on the way in if you’re aware of it and just deliberately doing it like Taylor Larsson does. He’s doing an educated and calculated decision, as expected of an engineer. That is not a subjective decision at all. But if you’re clipping it by sheer ignorance of gain staging and complain “oh this plugin is so far away from what the analog version does”, then that’s where the problem is. Gain staging is important if you really want to follow plugin instructions for analog emulations and expect the response that you want from that particular hardware.
I can definitely hear the difference in saturation with analog emulations when running through them at different levels aka "sweet spot" If you drive them too low you don't get the pleseant harmonics, too hot and they distort.
I agree people probably overly obsess about gain staging. I usually just anchor my kick in at -18dbfs and then everything else usually falls right into place with no fuss.
i agree with this
Good video. I've never worried about gain staging as it makes no sense in the digital world. As long as I'm not clipping when recording , I just go. But I do like to make sure I have a strong signal when recording and mixing.
Some plugins do have a sweet spot, but they won't necessarily sound bad if you don't aim for those levels. I think there's some confusion about the -18dbfs thing. That's not 0db peak in the analog world. That's 0VU which i more of an averaging RMS level and the VU meters were too slow to catch fast transient material. The peaks wouldn't register.
We had to record things like hi hats and fast percussive stuff a lot lower than 0VU because the peaks were much higher in reality. If you set your peak input to -18dbfs in your daw, you're tracking way too low. For some instruments, like an acoustic guitar with fast transients but mostly sustained rms energy, it might barely register on the meter at those levels.
I set my peak levels on input to about -12dbfs to -10dbfs and it keeps my average levels in that -18dfs sweet spot, most of the time. Also allows me to keep my faders closer to unity which makes mixing easier because the resolution of the fader throw is much finer in that area. If tracks are too hot, you need to pull the faders down too far in mix to not blow up your master bus, and a tiny nudge can be 4-5db volume changes down at the bottom of the range.
The only gain staging i obsess over is keeping my signal the same volume as it goes through various plugins, so if i bypass it, i don't get fooled by the volume difference. That's it. otherwise, just keep the levels sensible and don't worry about it too much.
Yep
I never got this obsession with gain staging, but I do appreciate the need for the levels to be in and around a certain place as the resolution of the faders is different across the entire throw.
This is pretty much all it's about, everything else in this video is hyperbolic strawmanning.
Another superb, anti-bs video. Thank you! When I was first learning music production at school, the teachers told us to record as hot as possible at ALL TIMES. Turns out they brought their analogue approach with them into a digital world. Haven't recorded "hot" in years and never had a single issue - if anything tracking actually became easier because I never again worried about clipping.
Um. U had to come from an analog chain to call it recording. Therefore you worked thru some sort of level management/gain management plan before AD. By your analysis you might as well come in at -60 then what, gain up?? Gaining up huge leaps is ridiculous on so many levels
@@synthzizer3324 ^this
@@synthzizer3324 Did you even watch the video?
@JamieDrumz did you even try and increase your levels up from your analog noise floor before AD? Is that mixing or recording? What true peak levels are you putting into your DAW? Does it matter as long as you don't clip your digital conversion chain? No it doesn't. Record with a decent heft of meat...because there is a difference in audio quality digitizing with wimpy levels then gaining up.
@@synthzizer3324 I think you missed the point of my original comment, and possibly the point of the video. Good luck with all your recording endeavours :)
Most analog-modeled plugins do have a sweet spot though, for where they will give the optimal character of the unit. Some like the Lindell plugins let you change the calibration level, so you can adjust where that sweet spot is (where the saturation starts kicking in). That way, you don't have to gain up/down your audio clips to hit the spot. Is it overkill? Maybe, but if you're working in a genre where analog characteristics are apart of the vibe you're going after, then hitting those plugins optimally will make a difference in the tone. But this is stuff that an experienced mixer/producer would want to pay attention to. If you're just starting out, then it's not worth losing sleep over. Your ears probably won't hear a difference, or even know what to listen for.
I would worry about the vocal and the drums, at the very least. And obvious main sound like the Piano or keyboard, Strings.
But most certainly the Vocal, would have to be at least sweet-spot aware or managing
Exactly
THIS is a discussion well worth having and I wish more plugin manufacturers were up front in leading it. The issue about levels and gain staging is a different kettle of fish.
This video relates to amp sims but really does a great job getting into the reasoning about why it is important in specific scenarios. If anyone has other thoughts to share on this subject, please fire away.
ua-cam.com/video/jXKZqJtjLkg/v-deo.htmlsi=GKdu2Y_6U53XlsQ7
@@dylangadwa3119 autogaining the sweet-spots would probably be the future, could do with ML etc, similar to what Fresh air i think does with the highs and air, I think it auto-compensates
As always, you provide nice, crisp and precise information! Thanks!
Thanks Bobby, I knew at the beginning what your were going to say but it's a relief that you explain that so honestly.
gain staging prior to beginning a mix can make things quicker and easier later on particularly with high track count mixes 😉
Once all tracks are recorded whether midi or wav or both, and before bouncing or resampling any tracks, I begin mixing all tracks from its default 0db and adjust each track +-
Well to be fair if you don’t make sure everything stays below a certain level you’re gonna clip your channels so it’s nice to be able to set all that up ahead of time and then you don’t have to keep on top of it throughout the rest of the mix
Gain staging does matter, but it isn’t well defined in this video. Gain staging means controlling and managing the level of audio through the entire mixing chain. That means on all tracks, through all plugin, and on all buses.
It is part of Mixing and Mastering, you gain up, you pre-amp up, you add saturation, you add fulness or bass. Gaining up the Bass is basically like Gainstaging, and then of course there's the middle, transient, treble etc
Sorry, this is not true though some stuff is true. Gain staging is important still. Yes, even in a digital DAW. Why? If you use any type of Analog Style plugin/s that model the nonlinear aspects of the hardware and the plugin can distort cause it has saturation in it, you need to gain stage! VERY IMPORTANT!!! If you are using pure digital style plugins without any type of nonlinear function, like he's using in his mix here, yes, you do NOT have too though it's still always in good practice. This is where I/We agree. Sorry, your video popped up on my feed and I'm 100% against giving out wrong info to new users or people that want to learn about audio/mixing etc. I'm glad you are sharing info which is great. Take care, Marc
I’ve heard this argument several times but I’ve yet to see anyone provide an example of an analog emulation plugin that sounds different when driven with signals of different levels. Would be very interesting to see a commonly used plugin from say Waves or UAD that creates an audibly different output depending gain staging when output levels are normalized. Not saying it doesn’t happen but haven’t seen any evidence so far.
@@Simula77 Check this out, it's copied strait from the manual of Waves LA2A (analog modelled compressor)
As most people tend not to read manuals, so here you have your evidence;
Many different elements contribute to the unique sonic behavior of analog gear. Waves painstakingly modeled and incorporated the characteristics of the hardware into the CLA-2A, in order to fully capture and replicate the sound and performance of the original equipment. The hardware was modeled at reference levels of -18 dBFS = +4 dBu, meaning that a signal of -18 dBFS from the DAW to the hardware unit will display a meter reading of 0 VU (+4 dBu).
These are some of the most important elements of analog behavior:
• Total Harmonic Distortion
Perhaps the most important analog behavior is Total Harmonic Distortion or THD, which is defined as the ratio of the sum of the powers of all harmonic components to the power of the fundamental frequency. THD is usually caused by amplification, and changes signal shape and content by adding odd and even harmonics of the fundamental frequencies, which can change the overall tonal balance. THD can also change peak output gain, usually by no more than +/- 0.2-0.3 dB.
Just try it out I would say, check the manual of an analog modelled plugin that you own.
@@Studio22mixI am not saying that there cannot be a difference in sound but even that manual only says: "hardware was modeled at reference levels of -18 dBFS = +4 dBu" not specifically that it will sound different if the same amount of compression is applied to signal of a lower amplitude. I do have the CLA-3A from Waves and UAD LA-2A so hopefully I have time to make some real world tests.
@@Simula77In pro tools run a sine wave using the signal generator. Now open any spectrum analyzer. Now open any Uad compressor or preamp. Look at the harmonics in the high frequencies. I can hear them even with a sine wave. Now gainstage your sine wave to -18 rms and sweep the sweet spots on the Uad plugin.
Now, this is something I've been struggling with. Thanks for that video, Bob!
exactly what i was looking for. right on man thanks...
I still have insane amounts of noise, using high gain amp sims with my interface input at zero and noise gates activated, electrical current Cant really explain it but there is noise, I have to lower gain in the sim and lower the input going in the amp sim as well to the point where its just not fun anymore, level is too low, I can barely see the waveform.
How do I get strong transients If I need to lower my interface input to get a good guitar tone through the amp sim.
Once again, great advice. As I’ve found in my mix journey, if your input levels when recording individual tracks are even as high as -6db (of course you don’t want to record tracks even close to 0.0db), what really matters is how you balance your levels during mixdown. For example, I’ve found that if my guitar tracks are hitting at -3db after adding an amp sim, I’m turning down the channel volume by at least 3db or more to get them to balance into the mix.
It comes down to being uneducated on the subject so people don't know what they are talking about. They just twist knobs and pick plugin presets and don't actually have any knowledge of audio. A lot of "home studio owners" today are people that have no business mixing. They are guitar players that like making their own songs. So the industry created "realistic" midi drums and "ready to go no adjustment needed amp sims". So these "home studio owners" only have to pull up the drum midi program and a amp sim, not adjust shit and have a "record quality" mix. Then they introduced "mix ready' bass amps sims or bass midi that were ready to go. Everything was made by people that know what they are doing to be plug and play. That has created a bunch of "mixing engineers" that actually never learned and practiced any actual mixing or troubleshooting which is most of mixing when you start and still is a big part of recording no matter how seasoned you are. That's why.
I get most levels to be about the same at the end of the signal chain so I know that everything is mostly the same level when I go to the faders and mix. It's just how I've done it since I started doing live sound back in the day (early 2000's on a huge analog Allen and Heath that was like 6 to 8 feet long were gain staging did matter). Also so I have a good amount of travel available for my faders so I have range and not just maxing out every fader with nowhere to go. Just like how almost all converters are of equal value from the cheap Behringer under 50 bucks to the most expensive interface. These people never really have looked into how digital audio works and what the reality behind it is. Just believing anything anyone says which helps sell a bunch of expensive gear when people have more than enough gear that is plenty hi quality enough they just have to practice mixing and read up more on the science of audio and think how to use that knowledge to you advantage in the forms of mixing techniques, type of plug in to use etc.
Comes down to buy less shit, practice and read more. But that requires work and no fun choosing plugins all day so most don't.
Great video! Thanks for posting
1. Peaks is different from RMS (VU)
• You should record (raw) with Peaks (I repeat - PEAKS) between -6 to -1dBfs but do not obsess too much, as long as the volume (hence VU) of the recording is loud to be heard (thus RMS is about -18dbFS or thereabout )
• once the recording is done, it is good idea to treat it (means to tame the Peaks shorter then 5 to 10 ms - you can not perceive them anyway) with either a clipper with saturation or fast compressoring
• adjust the treated recordings to have RMS (VU) at about -18dBfs or thereabout as a max value - this will ensure enough headroom and will save you tons of redundant level adjusting within each pluginFX chain (great preparation is half the job already done!)
2. Mixing is a creative process
• as with every art there are gifted people (who just have a musical ear for sound combinations), there are talented people (lots of time and effort invested… Glen Flicker comes to mind) and just regular folks, who want to try it because they like it (here are 99% of us)
• doing it is more important than reading about it (mixing and shit)
3. Pre-mixing and Mastering are more on the technical side in the process of producing Music\Audio
• you can read and do it as instructed or learned by trial and error
That's it.
Disagree with this. It’s worth spending 5 minutes (that’s all it takes) to trim your track levels to something around -18 as this will give you the most sensitivity with fader movements around the 0 mark and you won’t be instantly overloading the mix bus. It’s much easier to take a few minutes to do this than have a load of really hot tracks and then have to have all your faders set near the bottom of their travel, or quiet tracks where you have to ride the fader right up to max to balance it with other tracks.
Agree with this, except nothing you said goes against anything bobby says. It's just a workflow thing which is why I trim my tracks before mixing, but if you don't have a problem with it you don't need to.
@@patrickperry6898 - Bobby said gain-staging was pointless, when it's clearly not
- "it's just a workflow thing ..." : so it's helpful for mixing (and you do it), and not hamper your mixing
I completely agree
His argument is also not really good imo. „I‘ve never heard of gain staging and i am professionally producing over a decade from now, so its gotta be pointless, cuz i am never wrong“ or what..
I agree with you, it should literally take 5 minutes. There's no need to obsess over this at all either as some claim you have to get exact numbers, but just ballparking it at least is good. Some tracks you don't even have to do anything to and you leave it as is and move on.
Gain staging through multiple devices makes a huge difference on you tone color. And the entry gain is vital on certain plugins too, sooo. All I'm saying is it's better to make it a tool than ignore it.
ill give you that a few plugins are changing the sound based on input level.. I usually delete those plugins, as its a bad design descision ( I am also a programmer with 25+ years of pro experience) but yes, some plugins do that. Most do not. DAW native plugins are mostly better at not doing that.
Exactly what I've been doing for a long time! Don't care about gain staging except for clipping while recording and clipping while exporting.
I Don't see it as a waste of time. it made my mixes far better than they used to be. but as with all music...it just gets better with time.
Today I bought gain staging plugin. Why...to feed properly the plugins
why to buy a plugin for that? just turn down/up the gain of the tracks before hitting whatever plugin you wanna use
I didn't know what it was but kinda glad it's one less thing to worry about. Thank you.
I worried about gain staging for a little bit. Then when I realized all I needed to worry about was clipping everything got way more relaxed. Great video bud keep em coming!
At least for Vocal, it's most certainly Sweet-spot, Gain-stage awareness - Most Mix Engineers and Mastering do
Thank You very much. My guitar signal goes in very low then i compress and add volume but always worried about doing this too much. Damn, thats alot of weight off my shoulders
Thank you for this information
Its a big lie. Gain stagiaire is important cause in studio and most artiste recording themselve they have a template and that said tamplate is set to be at -18 / -24db. So yes its usefull.
Dude. Gain staging and Level management is an interchangeable term such as tracks and a track. You need 100% to do proper level management (gain staging at the pre fader level is really important) I'm leveling my pre fader gains too -4.0 on alot of the audio. But I also don't use any master processing. But that's my way of working. Bubble the mix upto - 0.1 is a fkn art to behold without a master limiter.. Good luck doing that with no gain staging/level management.
Yes, it’s not just about the straw man argument of “not clipping”, It’s also about maintaining the balance levels that you carefully set during your static mix, so you don’t screw that up and have to start over.
Dunning-Kruger is strong with this one!
Yep
Hybrid mixer here: this is all factual. Itb i only adjust plugins to keep from clipping internally, and with some amp sims because i want them to sound closer to their modeled amps, in that case i will lower or raise their input gain to taste. I also have a preferred range for my busses in the daw so they all add up to a range of volume at the master bus that gives me healthy headroom in case a client wants to add tracks, just saves me time having to change things to add headroom. Just find a general baseline workflow that ensures you don't clip on the way in, and don't clip on the way out. What happens in between is whatever you want and that's why i can never go full analog, that freedom is hard to let go of.
In analog land gain staging is a make or break habit and keeping noise to a minimum is the only way to make it worth being in hybrid setups. I grew up with analog and the workflow is significantly faster for me so i tend to adapt a cla style approach of prepping my raw tracks and submixing to send to the console and then back into the daw. I love it but i get so tired of analog diehards saying bad things about working itb. There isn't much of a point in arguing which is better anymore.
I completely agree. Every DAW and recording app give you the best range to record into and they are pretty much the same practice. For vst instruments you have a lot of range
For particular older hardware its a different thing. You are going to introduce noise and artifacts and stereo imbalances if your levels are too low. If you can resolve issues on the way in, that is ideal.
With a crisp recording, Id rather add distortion and harmonics rather than putze around trying to take things away
So you can't do a clipped wav form with Rx?
You could, but even that can't save a totally butchered signal.
Some people are saying the Hi-Z interface input for amp sims should be set to 0 gain , any thoughts on that bobby ?, I don't how much you use amps over real amps , it did seems work better tbh . then that other suggestions of just below clipping on the interface.
It depends on your philosophy: if it's "if it sounds good it's ok", do what you want with your level as long as you avoid clipping. If you want the "real" response and behavior of your amp sim as it is on the hardware from which the plugin was modeled, you have to know what was the operating level that was used to model the amp. For example, Neural DSP model their amp with a level maxed at +12,5 dBu which corresponds to gain level at minimum on a UAD Apollo Hi-Z input. So to match this, you have to check the specs of your own interface (max admissible level for Hi-Z input), set your gain at minimum on the interface, and adjust the input level on the plugin to match. Example: max admissible level on a Motu M series is +16 dBu for the Hi-Z input. So to match for a neural DSP plugin: gain on the interface at minimum, and +3,5 dB (12,5 + 3,5 = +16) on the input level of the Neural plugin. Then you're sure to have the exact behavior of the amp from which it was modeled.
Same thing for other plugs that emulate analog gear: either "if it sounds good it's ok", do what you want with your levels as long as you don't clip, or, if you want fidelity, you have to care about your operating level. For example with a Plugin Alliance Brainworx channel strip, set at 0Vu = + 4dbU, you will get the authentic behavior of the channel strip, especially concerning the saturation of the strip...
No one is right or wrong, it just depends on what you're after, and how is your workflow... doing proper gain staging will not improve by essence your mix, but it may help you to get clarity and mastery in your workflow, so you can achieve what you really want with conscience and confidence.... especially when you build your own plugin presets you will use across multiple productions, you have to be regular with your operating levels to get your presets produce the same behavior across your productions...
For me I never questioned your gain staging for the sound, it just confused me for the sense of workflow, but if it works, it works!
I don't even mind them in the red as long as it sounds good, especially on analog gear emulation plugins. Designers allow for it to be used like the original units were. I don't mind it in the red as long as I don't hear any digital distortion, unless there's noise. That's when I bring it down well below zero. Then if I need to make up the gain I'll do it somewhere else in the signal chain where it's not causing problems. I don't want to gate anything to fix an issue unless I have to. I am interested to try having the subs that low and see if it makes a difference. I'll try it.
I don’t care about certain db numbers but I care about the interaction between different units, from the microphone/ preamp interaction to how much I may saturate or not an analogue emulation vst. I think about gain more like a sensitivity knob than a volume one. A clear indication of sensitivity is with a dynamic handheld mic and the distance you can have while singing, there the preamps gain has a more significant role than any volume afterwards has. The same electrical interaction is happening with di’s , instruments like a bass with a preamp pedal etc , condenser mics have a more broad sweet spot but it still applies a bit.
That's what i thought already but thanks for confirming
I agree with this video. I am a beginner and I have noticed that on EQs and compressors that the gain does matter as far as what the input graph looks like.
I’m not sure if I should gain stage in the DAW so the graph looks somewhat consistent as training wheels though. sad😢
I’m a voice actor. If my signal is too hot at any point it sounds like crap. Clipping on my DAW will distort.
I used to run my tracks too loud. Only way I found that out way putting a limiter at the end of the chain. Instant distortion. So I reduced volume just to just before ugly distortion kicks in.
Good stuff Bobby. I agree and I'm a noob mixer. Been working in DAW for only 5 months and I try keep tracks and definately mix down below 0 db's. Around -5 output is my sweet spot and try not to push the 0 clipping zone. Different individual tracks are all different levels but mixed to taste. And low and behold my renders to MP3 are killer for a noob like me. Thought it was gonna be some hard or magic algorithm I needed to strictly follow but nope crank some knobs and if it sounds good...go for it. Can always burn another version if need be.🤘🎸🔥
Oh and for the headroom that's all handled in the master bus and on a few the tracks to HP and LP the unneeded frequencies 😊
What’s the name of the song in that example? I love that riff
Totally agree W Bobby. Given all the input volume knobs, gain plug ins (Logic), faders, trims on Eq plug ins, and on and on, there are at least 6-8 different places I can "gain stage or re-stage" all throughout the entire process. Try this: Record so you don't clip, mix like you normally would, and manage faders. Then use automation to get levels balanced or unbalanced (since that is sometimes what we want). Occasionally check "pre-fader metering" or when your plug ins are themselves clipping. Reduce gain where you see red lights...Gain staging is not a separate critical first step. You can't avoid doing it later in the process anyway. If your individual tracks are starting to peak near zero, put limiters or clippers on busses, and then lower your master output so the master mix doesn't itself clip. With 32 bit, your Zero peak is just a reference that tells you when individual instruments are roughly at same max level in the mix, but its a great habit into which to get, to stop making red lights, LOL. Using this process, its ridiculously simple to get good dynamics AND to get a loud mix. Even with just stock plug ins...there I said it. Although I admit to using BSA Silencer on drums....now that was a game changer for me.
You're a smart man!
Thanks for the compliment, my friend. I have always enjoyed your no-nonsense approach and often refer fellow musicians to your channel when they are starting the process of learning production. It can be easier than they make it, so I use you as confirmation of what I also teach! My band is about to release a Rush tribute recording ( but its an original) and trying to emulate the 70's, 80's and 90's sound they had was challenging but i think we did it.
Thank you for this. I love when myths are dispelled. So much time is spent arguing over non-issues instead of MAKING MUSIC.
I couldn't agree more!
Myth? So what you’re telling me is if somebody sends you a session and the guitars are clipping the channel you don’t lower it before you start mixing?
@@johnwalter6410 ^ there you go
I tend to mix very hot. Not because I believe that sounds better, but just out of habit. Usually my peaks happen to be at -3db to -6db.
Its just not very convenient, I should give myself more headroom.
but then again, I just put the things I need to turn down into different folders/groups and just turn the levels down with those instead of going through each individual track
I'm just not paying attention until I see clipping.
also, any time I need spesific levels for plugins to work correctly I just adjust the level right before that plugin.
Like Ableton's noise gate is kinda inconvenient to work with for guitar DI tracks because its visuals wont help much when I try to set the threshhold correctly. They are just too quiet.
Therefore I like to boost the DI's by 10db before and -10db after the gate.
The stock plugins seem to offer a lot more headroom than my audio inputs do.
Wasn't the Gain Staging thing all about not sendin a higher single from say a single channel to a Buss channel?
Ir wasn't it about analogue emulations needing a digital signal that matches an analogue signal? So the plug in works better ?
Gain staging is crucial for managing the levels of signals at different stages of the signal chain. It ensures optimal signal-to-noise ratio and prevents distortion or clipping. In simple terms, gain staging involves setting appropriate levels for each element in the mix, from individual tracks to plugins and the final output. By carefully adjusting the gain at each stage, you can achieve a balanced and clean mix. It is important to maintain headroom and avoid excessive boosting or cutting of levels to preserve the integrity and dynamics of the audio. When summing tracks to busses clipping can occur while the individual tracks where not clipping, this is normal when summing channels. Actually when using a small amount of soft or hard clipping or even light limiting after summing can help to get a loud mix that doesn't need a lot of limiting or compression on the masterbus. Some mix engineers use extra busses for instrument groups just for clipping off the peaks gently, most use an extra pre-mixbus too. Something anybody rarely talks about, like CTZ techniques 😉
@@Studio22mixbingo and that’s what this video should have focused on.
Factual information. I have left over gaining habits from the analog days. It keeps things more orderly in my mind, but in the end it doesn't affect the sound.
"It keeps things more orderly in my mind" : which is very important when mixing !
I must say I'm very tempted to do some testing of analog emulation style plugins at different levels to see if there is a detectable difference...
I find gain staging doesn't necessarily help my mixes sound better, or different , but it makes a difference to workflow. When each track starts in a similar level, it becomes obvious pretty quickly what needs to be turned down on the faders. And I start to see across a number of mixes that I make relatively consistent fader moves, which again saves me time, for a relatively small cost at the start of a mix of gain staging the individual tracks and buses.
There are a LOT of plugins (like amp sims for example) that are optimized to operate the best with a specific input gain. It does matter.
YES, test! Gain staging is very important when using analog style plugins. Not so much digital style ala Fabfilter, Avid digital style core plugins, or any DAW's core plugins are usually digital styled. When using analog style ala UAD plugin, Certain Waves Analog styled with saturation and/or distortion, or many other analog styled, please do the testing to see if a over 0db like +12 db will affect your sound going into the plugin, does it distort etc.
Gain staging is too narrowly defined in this video. I think you’re making sense
"I find gain staging doesn't necessarily help my mixes sound better, or different , but it makes a difference to workflow"
and better workflow helps with getting better mixes...
Thanks, this probably saved me a bunch of time about worrying about arbitrary numbers. Now I can tackle learning mixing without that hurdle in my way 👍
Selecting a unity gain isn’t arbitrary though. If you don’t maintain your gain structure throughout the mixing process your mix will fall apart.
@@phadrus I meant that I don't have to worry about specific numbers, but can just ball park if it sounds right to my ear. Legitimately, if there's something I'm not getting right plz explain it to me cuz I'm an ultra beginner and just tryna figure it out
What's great though is level matching after compression/saturation (either for peaks or for loudness with LUFS). At least it is a great way to learn if you did improve the track or not (when you bypass it you hear the difference).
While I generally agree with this, its also important to say that sometimes the added volume is desired and I don't level match. Great examples are compression and clipping individual tracks. You will always have a higher perceived loudness when you clip/limit so I may be using said technique specifically to increase the RMS of the track and get rid of the clipping peaks if they are too dynamic. Volume matching is also way over-rated, except maybe in Mastering.
I have to disagree - at least with the title that gain staging "is a waste of time."
If you're obsessing over it, then yea. You're not getting what it's actually for, but that doesn't mean it's a waste of time -- Even in a DAW.
You're using Pro Tools. Pro Tools has more HEADROOM than any other DAW I've seen. (And I've tested pretty much all of them at one point or another.) I'm actually fairly certain Pro Tools does a certain amount of automatic gain staging to prevent peaks from happening in the master channel.
But as an avid Ableton user, I have to stage my input levels ALL THE TIME to prevent my master channel from peaking.
... And that's the other reason gain staging is important.
I agree that it isn't that necessary to worry about while *recording* as long as you have an interface with a low enough noise floor (although some really cheap interfaces or live mixers can still introduce lots of noise). You really just need to find a good average level that won't peak the input, or the right level you need for an analog-emulating plug-in you might be using.
BUT AFTER THAT, as you start adding 10, 15, 20 tracks to the mix, in some DAWs like Ableton, it just keeps increasing the level going to the master.. and before long you will peak the master channel.
This requires me to go back and drop my output levels on all my tracks by 6db or 12db (or whatever) until I'm no longer peaking my master channel. Alternatively, (as long as I'm not peaking any of the individual tracks) I could simply turn down my master. Sometimes this works too, but it depends on the mix.
Now do I miss Pro Tools for doing more of this work automatically? No. It's nothing more than a momentary hassle that's easily fixed, and I much prefer Ableton myself for 90% of the rest of the work.
But YES: staging your inputs in the DAW matters too!
It wouldn't be the first time somebody mixed professionally in a recording studio for years without really knowing everything about their field, and it won't be the last either. 👍
I didn't expect to see my prior video comment pop up in this video - half of it at least. I agree with you all day long on the digital gain staging subject - Just don't clip and leave some headroom in your mix for mastering. The omitted second half of my question was regarding the subsequent use make-up gain in your bus compressor, which in your "How to Get LOUD Mixes (without sacrificing quality)" video was maxed out at +15dB. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, and I don't comment often - I was just curious where you might find this advantageous.
Great question! After achieving the amount of GR I wanted in the compressor, it was turned up just to get the signal to where it was smacking the tap saturator (the plugin after the compressor) hard enough.
Good point. I would like to add this though. Anything records with a mic in the room, must sound good in the room and on the track before adding any further plugins or processing.
I tried it but I didn’t like it. It felt like I was taming my music and not allowing it’s full character to take shape.
That’s me; if you use and like it, go for it. The idea is to get your song to sound the way you envisioned it.
Use whatever gets you there.
If you are mixing ITB, it can’t be said enough that your first, and arguably one of the most important areas you should be focusing on learning is BALANCE. You can get a lot more done in a mix by starting simply from well balanced tracks. All that time spent trying to youtube “how to gain stage”, is time wasted that could have been spent simply balancing faders :)
And once you balance you sure don’t want to lose that balance-hence you control your signal strength through the whole mixing chain-I.e. the importance of gain staging or gain structure.
Not sure about this. Without gain staging I get too much buildup in the sub busses before the master. And some plugins add gain/volume and don't have an option to reduce the gain.
You’re right. Need to control audio through entire audio chain.
I think that gain staging, while important in the studio world, is much more relevant in a live setting, where if you're not keeping it in mind you're often a fine line away from an entire FOH system squealing on you. 😀
I agree 100%. Unfortunately, a lot of people online are thinking of gain staging in ways that have little to do with practical applications like what you mentioned. The problem is that some think that their mixes will magically sound better when hitting some arbitrary "sweet spot" within their DAW's.
@@FrightboxRecordingnever seen these people, I guess they are out there
Thois is why so many ppl music is distorted at low volumes and sound like crap when u turn it up! Its levels to everything
I used Sonimus console emulations .They out put at -18 when you hit them at 0 vu. And in Samplitude I can easily adjust each track out put to the channel chain to whatever % of volune I want.
I just make every track 50% normalization and every thing works out fine.
Hello Ronny, I beta test for Sonimus and in fact did it for both the API and Neve plugins. They are considered "Analog Emulations". What does that mean? It means they can distort so, be careful. A key point and something I follow is this. When I use to use hardware, 0db was the sweet spot. Most times I would hit it +6db more and to me, that was the sweet spot cause I was trying to get more saturation (bring sound closer) then at 0db. So, what does that mean, well most plugins if not all 0db is -18db on the plugin side. That's considered 0db in the plugin world. So, if I love the sound of it pushed a little, that would be -12db (-18 + 6db=-12db). I hope that makes sense. So why do I take that approach? Cause I use a lot of analog styled plugins. So going from plugin to plugin, making sure you gain match between them all, I will always have a consistent sound that sounds upfront and professional. I hope this helps. Ask any question, I'd be glad to help if it's ok with the admin on this page.
@@PlugMEin Now that sounds like a logic strategy to me. I never heard about Sonimus, I’ll definitely will check it out. Always interested in stuff I don’t know 👍🏼
I do it the same as you, Don’t clip and stay in the green; that’s it.
I’m working on two rock and metal songs that I haven’t even mixed yet and they sound amazing.
1.5 minutes into this video, I was asking, "Why is he referring to his sound levels in his DAW tracks as gain-staging? That's not gain-staging."
Just stop calling your digital record levels "gain-staging."
The only reason I gain stage is so I'm not clipping on my master track. Before I knew about gain staging, I used to keep my faders at 0 Db. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't get some things, like keyboard sounds, to even be heard. I asked on Reddit, and a couple of people told me to make some screen captures. As soon as they looked at my pics, they said right away "Everything is too loud!!! You have to turn them down to a certain level (gain staging) so when they all come out of the master track, they are not fighting each other." I wasn't clipping, but the individual tracks were too loud, making it impossible to mix properly.
Gain staging through the entire audio chain is 100% necessary, it’s nearly literally what a mixing engineer does-control audio volume.
Completely agree. I have found one situation that it does make sense for. If you recorded a guitar DI with lots of gain and run it into an amp sim, it may be beneficial to trim the gain. The best way is to get it right while recording (keep input gain at 0).
For sure, fair point. 😊 Need to remember that you can adjust level of signal before the plugin or in the amp sim plugin itself, whatever you prefer. Worth to mention that adjusting signal in that case is not to achieve any specific magic number of dB but right amount of distortion. If signal is too low for the plugin you will have less distortion, if there is too much, you will have too much distortion in hi gain amp sims. It matters to adjust to taste of what tone you are looking for. So it is more tone design than gain staging to the numbers.
@@mateuszzawocki1405 exactly. Many of the models require a different signal going in so using the ears is important
@@mateuszzawocki1405 "Need to remember that you can adjust level of signal before the plugin or in the amp sim plugin itself" which is.... (drum roll) ... gain-staging !
@@djabthrash Yes of course, but it could be helpful if developer could share precise information about level of your input signal you need to put before the plugin :)
@@mateuszzawocki1405 It seems that if a plugin expects a specific level, then the developer states it clearly in the user manual.
I kind of agree with this. I just make sure my levels are not clipping unless on purpose (soft) and the thing is you mix for a reason right? Kind of the whole point. I never really got into the gain staging thing. As long as you have your levels in a healthy level and process and then keep levels good afterward it usually turns out fine. One less thing I don't have time to bother with. I've only mixed in the box with interfaces and a daw. Never did analog. So I don't feel the need to do this crazy staging. Again YMMV
I feel like you made this video directed to me 😂
Spending the first minute confused, as gain STAGing (multiple stages) has nothing to do with levels in your DAW. Ahh 2:14, the word I was waiting for: noise! This is an enlightening perspective, thanks man!
You're exactly right. Many people these days are throwing the term "gain staging" around in ways that don't make any sense.
Im the opposite im not happy unless everything flashing red but to me the amp sim sounds better when the input is clipped like a boost pedal
I have a feeling watching this video is going to be a waste of time... but I'll bite. Post: While some good points regarding the noise floor being less of a concern were made, I absolutely disagree with saying "gain staging is a waste of time." While the definition has changed somewhat, you can't just all of a sudden completely ignore levels.
Paying attention to and crafting levels is the whole point of mixing, it’s literally want you are doing as a mixer (balance engineer). You can say you aren’t gaining staging but you are. If you don’t setup a maintain a reliable gain structure, selecting a sensible unity gain for your entire signal chain, you’re likely going to mess up your static mix levels you worked hard to setup, at minumum.
Agreed.
If you use a hybrid system it helps to reduce noise floor
Haven't heard the term signal to noise ratio for a long time but It used to be the thing.
This is 100% true. It’s funny but it’s always these no-name guitar forum battlers, who like to comment on shit like that. If you ever seen any of the Nail The Mix mixing videos, nobody pays attention to that. Taylor Larson will sometimes clip the shit out of a plugin just if it sound “right” for him. You’re right, as long as you don’t clip - it’s good, that’s it.
You're a smart man!
Gain staging is only done to actually have control over your mixing faders. Moving your fader a couple pixels when it is at -20 will significantly change the dB amount compared to having it near 0 before even starting to mix since you actually have room for detailed adjustments.
OMG what is the zero position on your fader for? The relationship between the gain on file and that zero position is what.?? Means nothing? Jesus guys, the zero and the gain on file has a reason.. has an interactive relationship. I'm doing -7 to -4 on file. Depending on the part. Average fader position is at ZERO. Translate/bus a busy mix to the master with that shit, it hits to kissing ZERO Full scale without a limiter on the master.
As far as i know if you record in 32bit you can "unclip" tracks. Thats the only advantage of 32bit. Other than being able to reproduce volume changes bigger than the big bang itself and buying a new ssd after every project. :D
If it ain’t clippin, I ain’t trippin
some plugins are based on hardware and they actually have sweet spots.. if you read some waves plugins manuals they explain the optimal input level.. I think you should research this again by reading some plugin manuals.
Gainstaging is recording quiet.. but it happens PRE fader
Gain staging is controlling signal strength through the entire mixing structure, not just the beginning
@@phadrus yes hence the 'staging' part. The most critical part is the input levels into the signal processor. So when I say pre-fader im referring to the faader of the channel you're working on, which could be the channel, bus or 2buss fader.
@@SOVLTRON I agree it’s critical, what kind of annoys me is videos like this hyper focus on one aspect of gain staging and give a false impression that’s all gain staging is and it’s not important, nothing could be further from the truth
Iv'e tryed everything. Can't ever get my levels that low.....
😅😅😅😅😅😅
Actually, your mix probably sounds even better for mixing at lower levels depending on what plugins you use. People often forget to be mindful of thresholds in plugins that emulate saturation like you mentioned. The people speaking about finding a sweet spot miss out on the fact that a lot of times for digital plugins, that sweet spot is found using as little as possible to make things sound more subtle opposed to boxy & cheap.
Many big name mixers turn off the emulated saturation religiously when using retro style compressors because it sounds bad at higher levels contrary to real equipment. Its less about the creator companies being smart enough to make it sound great but rather about despite how great they try to get it, it often cant compete with the real thing & with multiple stacks sounds very odd unlike the real analog gear's saturation.
Fact is, all saturation compresses more the harder you drive it so that sweet spot always needs more input volume to get more compression but as for tone & color, the sweeter sounding spots can often be found using significantly less input volume especially using digital saturation plugins.
And by less input volume, I mean extremely low input levels such as those this video examples & youll never know what that sounds like until you try...Im swearing it sounds better even using the cheaper sounding stuff(its similar to the technique of using extremely low volume wet parallel signals to add tone to your dry signal).
You are very incorrect. You generally want to go into analog modeled plugins at -18dbfs. Digital plugins don’t matter. But, modeled algorithms are built to work based on that, Lindell series notwithstanding (can choose calibration)
I'm not sure what you mean here, the gain staging I was taught about it just to keep overall volume the same coming in and out of any given plugin so you don't trick yourself into thinking it's better than it is, but that doesn't seem to be what you're talking about here
If you don’t know what he’s talking about, keep it that way! You will save yourself so much time and wasted energy!!!
Short version: analog gear has a “sweet spot” where the hardware reacts best. The idea has carried over to the digital world, but it’s a myth 99.9999% of the time. Don’t clip, that’s it. Check your plugin manuals because they might claim there’s a sweet spot. You can hit that if you want, but it’s almost certainly nonsense marketing talk from the manufacturer.
You’re right. The definition of gain staging in this video is incomplete and misleading. As mixing engineers we control volume, and that includes all the audio coming I and out of buses and plugins through the entire audio chain. It’s literally the basis of the engineers job.
Yeah, I gain stage for -6db peaks pre fade and unity gain on mix chains all the way through mixing. It's absolutely essential, not unnecessary or a myth...😊 If you are confused or "wasting" time on it, then you probably don't understand it and should do some more research. Ignoring it is not the solution. 😊
@@mikebozik yes sir
@@mikebozikare you doing that to control your levels all the way to the master fader? If so, great!
Are you doing it because you’re trying to hit the “sweet spot” of your plugins? Thats a waste of time. If something is too loud, turn it down. If something is too quiet, turn it up. No big deal, nothing to think about.
Why so angry and defensive?. Love how you felt the need to rattle off your credentials multiple times to give weight to your theory, which really doesn’t stand up for many reasons.
For starters half your faders are near the bottom, brilliant .!!! That way you can dick around with no fader headroom when you’re mixing.
Secondly, not understanding saturation thresholds of plugins is another reason your over-caffeinated rant is misguided.
Yes, this video was a misstep in my opinion, it’s okay though. Just wish it wasn’t so misleading.
Good final thought on this video, thanks for doing this, but the title... uhhhh... I don't think it gives the right notion for the beginners.
I don't disagree with your argument about gain staging regarding the noise floor, but seeing how much make up gain you have to use in your compression plugins and subsequently how low the master limiter threshold is set in your workflow is a bit idiosyncratic. Lots of ways to skin a potato to get the same result, no doubt. But all that space for faders and meters for just the bottom tenth to light up? Learning gain staging translates across analog and digital realms, where I'm not sure I can see mixing like this on a digital console for a live show for instance.
This is why you're still recording in your bedroom dude. Making broad statements and overwimplifying things to a fault is no good. Look at Rhett Shull's new video "we need to talk about amp sims" where he went into depth about how you need to gwin stqge correctly going into an amp sim. Analog plugins also need a proper input volume. If you cant hear the difference, it doesnt mean that it "doesnt matter".
Yep, the video was misleading
Of course there are differences, but you can sound good in both ways.
I’m a freak about clipping. Lol
Don’t want it anywhere at anytime, not even a second on the drum buss. Even if it’s just under peak level, as long as there’s no clip, I’m good.
I miss tape. No I don’t.
Good video.
about gain staging in digital world, just don't clip, that's it. And speaking of DAWs, they are mostly at either 32 or 64 bit nowadays which virtually has unlimited dynamic range.