I Am A Little Confused About This…
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- Опубліковано 3 чер 2024
- Recently I’ve seen some confusing info on using guitar plugins. So I wanted to help you guys by showing you some useful info that should clear things up a bit!
00:00 - Why it's important
02:57 - Demonstration
07:42 - Summary
Video edited by John Hollingworth
#rabeaafro #neuraldsp #archetyperabea
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Thanks for watching guys.
Just want to point out that the desired effect of this video was to say you shouldn’t need to be turning up a DI signal. If anything use the input signal from the plugin you’re using rather than the interface.
Most modern interfaces will have compensation when using a line/inst input to achieve the right levels. If you’re curious about your specific interface to achieve this check the manual.
As I said, focusrite and UAD have built in compensation as do many modern interfaces. But most importantly. - try to leave the DI where it is, so you don’t run into inaccuracies when using guitar plugins.
Cheers
Thank you!!! I’m going to stop clipping my interface now 😂
"try to leave the DI where it is" - does that mean turning gain to 0 on my interface?
@@Hugo-pj4bm Yes.
Good explanation Rab - thanks that is helpful and explains why some patches from other people or commercial ones don't sound good. I will turn down the input a bit. Thanks!
Most interfaces are designed to be optimised at -18db. Even with my focusrite 0’ed I peak around -6db on the heaviest parts. Once you capture a good DI then you can always increase your gain in the DAW.
John Nathan Cordy covered this in depth. The main issue is there is was no shared standard between different companies & they weren’t even being consistent in how they captured or made their plugins. Further complicating this is the fact that companies like Neural DSP have given conflicting instructions (written & video) for the best practices for optimizing their plugins for the best sounds. Neural has went so far as to change some directions recently, without communicating why, or even admitting that they were telling people the wrong things to do before. It’s corporate gas lighting.
There are loads and loads of videos and guides who clearly instruct people to turn their interface input up until almost clipping and then roll back slightly to get a "good signal". So if you never had to look up videos or already knew what you were doing then yeah I guess you would think it was strange. But for all of us home recording noobs who needed some guidance, this is something that has been repeatedly and wrongly shown to us. I'm glad this information is finally coming to light, but it shouldn't be surprising so many had it wrong.
Exactly.
I still think that doing that and bringing the input level down in the plugin should give you the best signal to noise ratio while dropping the signal to the correct level for the plugin.
9:09 We also were very confused because some companies in their manual mentions to crank the DI until the reds and then back it off a little. No Amp sim company gave us (the mortals mediocre amateurs 😆) the proper way for gain staging, only a UA-camr like a month before
Well there is one new company that has done it, look for APFX and their smart input meter. Very simple, strum a bit and if it's blue you're too low, if it's red too hot and if it's green you are hitting the sweet spot.
This exactly, its says to push the level up in the manual
@@TheBluesyPeawhich plugins/companies say that?
@@josuastangl7140 Neural DSP
@@alessandroproverbio3411 I've seen only for plugin input not the interface input gain.
I never heard that an interface input level should be 0'd out, all the way down, when using a guitar until only a few weeks ago when another YT'er put out a video on this. Coming from an Audio mixing concept, the level control is always adjusted per channel based on the device you have plugged into it. I assumed the guitar was the same way into the interface. Using the device's App or front panel, adjusting the input gain until it starts to clip and then backing it off a touch. However, all my plugins were too hot at that point and I couldn't figure out why, and thought, "Wow! I have really hot pickups!" :D Thank you for spreading this around.
I had the same idea up until recently as well! I always thought that the level of a hi-z input needed to be adjusted, just as you adjust the level when using a microphone into a xlr... this explains why I always had a lot of difficulties in getting a clean sound from guitar plugins
It’s the same as an amp.. a real amp takes a Hi impedance input and it’s seeing the signal like a DI would..so same theory if you put a boost pedal in front and over drive the amp you will get extra gain..but it works out on real amp because it can handle that and clipping on a lot of amps sounds good to us.. but that same sort of clipping into a plug-in doesn’t work as well and really it’s more because of the A/D converter clipping on interface more then it is the plug-in can’t handle it. Sort of what makes the Apollo Unison nice so it knows to match the impedance of the plug-in amp design.
Yeah it's strange, seems like common sense that you would set the gain on your interface for a guitar the same way you would a mic, make sure there's plenty of signal but not clipping. Been doing it this way since I first plugged my guitar into an interface 15 years ago. Never read anywhere that you should set the gain to 0 on the interface until a couple of weeks ago, how is this not common knowledge!? Glad it's finally getting out there though, if a little late haha
You have less than 6db headroom normally. Or even less with some interfaces.
You don't "have to" down it all the way down and keep it that way. Or rather the 0db is different for different interfaces.
Correct/better way to do it is turn it all the way down at interface then increase level in daw. This way you are not risking clipping and you have the control over the input level going into the plugin.
Yeah, I was doing the same thing, many thanks to these UA-camrs, I’m now getting decent tones from my plugins.
Hey man! Thanks for doing a video on this topic. Most of the discussion on this recently stems from a video I made.
One thing you have to bear in mind is converters all use a different definition of what input signal equates to what digital level. So while this advice is PERFECT for UAD interfaces, if you did this same thing on a Behringer or Prism interface, your dBFS levels would be totally different (Behringer would be much hotter, Prism much quieter).
The fact that converters all have their own definitions of analog signal>digital is what the goal of calibration is trying to achieve. An interface that has higher headroom than UAD would need a louder input signal to match, and vice versa.
So I totally agree that there is no need to boost the signal at input, but just leaving the interface at 0 won’t guarantee your input level is optimal (unless it has 12.2dBu of headroom at 0 gain).
For other plugins like Softube/STL/Mercuriall/Audiority, they all expect totally different levels to NDSP, so again the advice in this video doesn’t apply.
Hey man, nice one! I didn’t know that you’d made a video. But I was aware the discussion came up again.
You’ve obviously gone into great depth which is awesome. From my experience with multiple interfaces, whether it’s focusrite, UAD, tascam, antelope or personus, I’ve never had any issues. I haven’t tried a Berhinger interface being honest. But I can’t say I’ve noticed anything different trying other Vst’s.
Although I’m sure your research is accurate and wasn’t attempting to dispute it, I was trying to advise people that ultimately you shouldn’t need to gain up an input signal before hitting a plugin.
@@RabeaMassaad Definitely agree that starting from 0 is the best way, that way you can use the interfaces included specs to adjust to whatever you are using.
There’s quite a lot of interfaces that will have a quieter signal than UAD at 0. Apogee is 2dB quieter at minimum, SSL is 3dB quieter, MOTU is 4dB quieter, Prism is 5dB quieter, Axe FX, Antelope and some RME will be quieter still. There’s plenty of others that go in the opposite direction too, so it’s just all over the place unfortunately. A Kemper as a DI would be 7dB hotter than UAD at 0.
In my experience +/-2dB or so doesn’t make a huge difference but when it’s 3 or more it can start to feel quite different. Whether having an accurate sounding model is important or not is another question, a lot of people aren’t too fussed if it isn’t 100% the same as plugging directly into the amp.
Worth bearing in mind while it may be the perfect level for NDSP, Softube will need a 13dB higher signal for the same input. STL needs 7dB higher than NDSP. If you are using something with a lot of headroom, it could need a 20dB boost or more to sound correct.
I definitely do want the most accurate response possible, especially if I want to compare things like for like and fairly.
@@eds4754 yep, they’re all slightly different, agreed. I think I’m trying to focus more on not gaining up the signal so much. The main issue I’ve seen and have heard is dialling it up to a point that is inaccurate. I can understand a few db but ultimately advice that’s been given in multiple videos I feel is steering people wrongly.
In my experience I’ve never turned up a DI signal on an interface when using a guitar plugin. I would rather use the input in the plugin itself if I needed more from it. I think that’s where I’d consider the issue to be mostly.
Either way, your findings are well in depth and I think it’s great if you’ve made a video on this. Outside of the specifics I just think it’s also important to change the perspective when using VST’s starting with DI signals.
@@RabeaMassaad Yeah, I think the advice of keeping it at 0 is very solid and exactly what I suggest too :) and there is little to no benefit to turning the DI signal up at the interface.
It’s still worth being prepared to (potentially) have to increase the plugin input level a lot - Amplitube/Softube/Audiority all need a pretty hefty boost in the plugin to sound correct, I think a lot of people are massively undergaining them without realising and then just assume the model isn’t good. Sometimes a small tweak might be necessary to match that “UAD at 0” if you want the absolute highest level of accuracy.
Love your stuff man, all the best!
Thank you both for addressing this topic. I have a PreSonus interface, and when people brought this up a few weeks ago, I was still so confused because with my input gain on my interface at 0, I received basically no signal.
Ed helped by noticing that my fellow PreSonus users had inputs that had a negative dB with the dial turned all the way to “0,” so now I keep mine at about 11 o’clock and am getting a much more accurate response from my Neural plug-ins.
I’ve noticed a few people are asking about Misha’s old video on guitar recording and just wanted to point out in that video Misha is not recording a DI. If you zoom in on his interface he is set to Line level rather than Instrument.
Since he’s running out of an Axe-Fx, that’s similar to what Rabea does here when running his amp through a load box.
In short, set the input to Instrument and gain to 0 when recording a DI. When using a load box or modeler output, set to Line level and adjust input gain accordingly for high volume but no clipping.
I could be missing something but it doesn't look like Rabea is plugging into a DI it looks like he's plugging in the the Hi-Z input of the interface. Could you clarify what you mean by "recording a DI"?
DI boxes generally REDUCE the level to Mic level.
When you use the Instrument input on an audio interface, you are recording a DI track. It’s an alternative method to using a DI box.
Basically, a DI box converts a high impedance output (from a guitar for example), to a low impedance output. This output is meant to be plugged into a Line level audio interface input such as a mic preamp.
The Hi-Z input on an audio interface eliminates the need for a DI box because the input impedance of a Hi-Z input is much higher than the output impedance of a guitar pickup.
Either way, the resulting recording is still a DI. If you listen to a recording from a Hi-Z input with the plug-in turned off, all you hear is the sound of an un-amplified electric guitar, and that’s all a DI is.
@@Surgebinder16 Yes I'm aware of what a DI is and does. Incedentally it reduces the signal to "Mic level" not "Line level".
I think it was just the phrasing that was an issue. Recording a DI (Direct Injection) as opposed to recording a the guitar directly to the interface via the Hi-Z input. My bad.
No worries. When I referred to DI I just meant that it was being recorded directly rather than using a DI box.
You’re correct that a DI box is reducing the input to Mic level. I was just trying to say this signal needs plugged into a mic preamp on an interface, which then brings the signal up to Line level after it’s been amplified by the preamp. I might have misspoke a bit on that previously, but that was my intention.
For an instrument input as well the gain doesn't necessarily have to be zero, you could increase or decrease it a bit based on what you like, but yeah 0 works for the most part, your plugin may have a dial to increase the level of the signal going into the main part of the plugin itself to make use of any input saturation modelling that the plugin may have
I think the problem people had is they'd set levels to close to clipping no matter if they had a vintage strat (turn it up so it hits -3ish) or something with bare knuckle warpig (turns down to -3dbfs ish) and wondering why their strat and vox emulation setup sounds fuzzy, but a strat should be nowhere near clipping at the reference point of high gain humbuckers the real world voltage is massively different. It sounds confusing but basically find the reference for the amp plugin and then don't change it for guitars to act as normal (obviously creative use is fine). Some people claim the gain control is the same but it isn't, some amps have gain stages before the control and often their is treble bleed and factors that affect impedance that means the frequency response changes as the gain control increases.
Important side note alot of amplitube amps have really high reference levels so you need to boost signal in the plugin, if you have the input set for something like Neural DSP with a lower reference.
Not all interfaces have the same level when set at 0. Set your interface so that hard strums peak at -12. If I set my Scarlett to 0 it is hitting -3. When setting the M2 at 0 it’s not even hitting -20. So setting to 0 makes no since.
Yea, my Behringer UMC404HD has a very hot hi-z input. At zero gain I'm already in the red, lol.
Switched to an Evo 8 and the signal at zero gain had more headroom. Sadly it failed so my quest for the right interface continues. Gonna try the SSL 12 next.
yeah man. This video actually confuses me even more. I have always ran my input level high just before clipping and then adjust the amp within the plugin to sound good from there and had no issues. Not sure where he's suggesting I set my level because (as you said) O would provide different results from interface to interface
Rabea can you please tell the guys at Neural to implement the option to lock input and output levels between presets? Preset makers obviously use their own setup, with maybe hotter or less hot pickups. So I can understand why some presets sound weak or not as intended when using different setups. I think locking those options would be welcomed by many
What do you mean? When I save a preset, my output levels stay like I left it...
Can't you already do this by adjusting the levels then saving the preset as your own?
The thing is such a lock only makes sense if you would use the same interface. If they use an interface with way higher headroom and dialed it in, you'd need to lower your interface input or even the plugins input anyway. Having additional information what setup the respective person used would be more useful, but hard to implement /keep a track record of.
This should be something built-in by default - agreed. Nothing more irritating like having to constantly readjust your levels when auditioning presets!
@@user-yg9zo6zt3d i never have to do that, don't know how y'all run your volumes, but for me here, it always plays nicely, even if there's -2db or +2db or something on the output ...
I just dropped my input levels at zero with the instrument option and it sounds much clearer.... wow thanks you.... almost every video says the exact opposite.....thanks you so much
I have honestly been struggling to get good sounds with both yours and the soldano neural plugins. Everything was always so noisy and I was constantly trying to eq or compress or set the noise gate too high or literally trying anything with my recordings to get them to sound just okay. It was making me second guess my ability to play guitar altogether and a big source of anxiety.
Thank you for making this video and explaining clearly how and why to set up your interface when using these plugins and putting an end to any debates over it for me anyways.
You’re a legend mate!
When I first started watching Rob Chapman's videos long ago, and then the Anderton videos, I didn't know who you were, but have since come to find you a very nice chap who's always happy to explain things as you do in this video. Keep it up!
Yes, the same confusion for me. I've also been noticing these types of questions more and more on the NeuralDSP Reddit lately. I've been using VST plugins for almost 10 years and it looked like setting the input gain on the interface and gain staging was common knowledge. Probably more and more people are currently switching to plugins because of the less metal-focused neural plugins that have recently been released.
Thanks for clearing this up man! I've heard people go back and forth on this and it's been confusing me.
Thanks, Rabea, for the practical examples! Very helpful for me as a newbie to the world of digital recording.
Rabea- I really like the way you come across as down to earth, skilled and how you explain things. Very nice, thanks!
Like how he's pretending neural never told us to crank up interface input gain?
A little advise Bea, this is a very helpful video and i believe a better title would help lots of people in the future. Lot of love, and thanks for clarifying this to me.
I’m so happy you made this video. I never knew to do it the way you’re describing.
If anyone has recorded any tracks the ''old'' way and wants to keep the takes or not re-record them, you can drop the input signal in the plugin itself to -14 or so and this will compensate as though you were running in neutrally.
Exactly and at least on Reaper, it might be even clearer to use pre-fader to get to proper input gain. Since this topic got trending, people went all over the place. Some people even measure their interface's gain using 3rd party devices. Literally every preamp and adc is almost identically clean and silent no matter which interface you're getting, so only thing you need to worry about is clipping. The rest you can change in pre-fader or plugin gain, since the characteristics of the sound doesn't change noticeably.
This is probably the more sensible way of doing it anyway: record a good signal and turn the plugin input down if needed.
Bra, I can’t say thank you enough. I’ve been trying to figure this out for a few weeks as I’m a traditional amp guy trying to play with VST and was always frustrated by that really Gainey swarm of the sound. I clearly had my interface set incorrectly and I appreciate the way you presented this and how you did it. Thank you.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this, Rabea! I know where I personally got mixed up on this. It was "Misha Mansoor's Guitar Recording Tips" from 9 years ago (it's up to 1.7 million views, so I might not be alone here). I realize now when he raised the gain on his Focusrite input level it made sense specifically for his setup because his guitar signal was already processed through his Axe-Fx before hitting the interface. But I missed that crucial factor when I first applied his tips and fought with plugins until John Nathan Cordy's "We've ALL Been Using Guitar Plugins WRONG - Neural DSP PROVE it". I was THIS CLOSE to swearing off guitar plugins once and for all, but now I FINALLY feel like I've been given the key to TONE TOWN and it's AWESOME! Love your music, RABEA!
Just what I wanted to know lately! There's a certain authenticity from you Rabea and I AM grateful for your experience with these things.
Thanks Rabea. That was a really good explanation and demo. Other videos have not been as clear about what's going on as you've been in this video. 👍
Ive always wondered why my signal was so hot. I always assumed it was something wrong with my pickups. Thank you so much for this info I would've never guessed to turn the di down that much.
I totally agree with the fact the you should not raise the input gain of your interface and should leave it to 0 when using a Hi-Z input. Although, the recent argument had more to do with knowing what is the actual input level that each particular amp sim plugin is expecting in order to reproduce the model accurately (the way they have been initially measured), since apparently different developpers uses different levels... and then adjust the input gain of the plugin (by either increasing or decreasing it). To do that, your first need to know the specs of your particular audio interface, and look for the ''Maximum Level IN at minimum gain''. In the case of my Motu M2, it's +16 dBu. Then, you need to know what level your plugin is expecting, and apparently they asked Neural DSP and 12.2 dBu was their answer (they got different answers from different developpers). So based on that theory, I should ''increase'' the input gain of the plugin by 3.8 to reach to expected level (3.8 + 12.2 = 16). That said, I've seen some people comparing the gain of the true amp VS the amp sim... and apparently we should leave both the interface and plugin input gain at 0 in order to match the actual gain of the modeled amp. So yeah.. still a lot of confusion... and I don't understand why developpers like Neural DSP haven't made that clear with a video demo yet... this is quite ridiculous IMO. The truth is still that most developpers recommend users to ajust their interface input gain using the SNR method, when it makes no sense since every guitar/pickups have different ouput levels.. so that would give very inconsistent results. Bea, please have Neural DSP make a video about that to end the debate once and for all!
Unfortunately Steven from the official Neural DSP UA-cam channel apparently gave the wrong information in a video years ago. He said we should play as hard as possible while turning the gain knob in the audio interface higher, when it started clipping we then should dial it a little back again.
well in all essence that is technically not wrong either, if you have a low output vintage pickup and youre trying to get a gnarly tone from a plugin like Fortin Nameless, Steven's method is a good way to compensate for your guitars shortcomings. But in the situation where you want your guitars authentic tone you probably shouldnt mess with the input gain of a guitar DI signal. I think Rabea in this vid is more so trying to educate people who probably made negative remarks about his plugin or other neural plug ins sounding bad when at the end the day (this is usually 95% of the time with any bad reviews) it was simply user error and misunderstanding of proper gain staging.
@@brendenrodgers7821 Hey Brenden, for me the information is still wrong. What you are doing is boosting your signal, which is ok, but only if you want/need to do it. It would be the same as saying you always have to put a booster pedal before your amp and set your signal just bellow clipping. You can do it, but you don't need to do it.
@@philkirschner100% agree. Turning the input gain is like changing the guitar into something it is not. Whilst there might be reasons why one might want to do that (for instance using a back up lower output guitar to play a regular set designed with a different guitar in mind), I feel this apparently poor advice comes from the old days or vocal processing.
I’m really glad this subject has blown up on the internet because I myself questioned this on a number of channels (forums, discords, UA-cam etc) and was always, and I absolutely mean always, told to turn the input gain up to clipping, then back off a little.
100% agree. The pickups of the guitar should ultimately decide the input level into the plugins. Like on real amps.. If people increase input gain, its almost like chaging the guitar pickups with something hotter.
Omg thank you so much. I Never got your plugin to work standalone. Always had to use logic to. I always was told to dial in the ai before anything else. I Never thought of keeping it on Zero. Now it works.
I definitely have always heard people saying "turn up your interface so you're almost clipping when you play as hard as you can", and just took that as gospel (especially given I have a Tele, which isn't super high-output to begin with). It sounded pretty good, so I never really questioned it.
But after A/Bing the two channels on my Focusrite (both in instrument mode, one with my usual settings and one at zero gain), I'm kicking myself! It doesn't sound *totally* different (as I wasn't cranking the volume that high previously), but it sounds a lot more like my Tele does through a real amp. And way less background noise on the signal is an added bonus...
Lesson learned :)
I do wonder if this *used* to be true at one point, before the current generation of modelling plugins, though - I swear I remember an old Amplitube manual telling me to turn up my interface, but I can't find that in the latest version. Could be that people are repeating outdated info without checking if it's still relevant.
Yeah I find that confusing. Because a DI is an ultra high dynamic range signal. So you can almost clip without gaining anything up.
As I say, I was confused to hear about this recently so wanted to shed some light and hopefully help out
Ideally you want to have about -4DB when you’re playing as hard as you can. It’s still quite possible for modelers to sound anemic due to weak DI and it also affects the gate threshold significantly if input level is too low. As rabea said most interfaces have plenty of level and don’t need much if any additional gain on a HI z input. Some interfaces are too loud from the get-go and don’t have a pad which is a bummer.
Misha Mansoor definitely uploaded a video years ago saying to turn up to just before clipping for recording guitars. Summarily thats what I did, and id seen countless other videos with the same information.
Watching Rabea's video, it makes total sense, and explains why I always feel like im fighting with the noise floor in some plugins.
I’m a hack at best, but I can attest to having been taught the same thing when I purchased my Focusrite Scarlett. I’m almost certain it was contained within their training videos on how to setup and use their interface. Happy to be corrected on this if my recollection is incorrect.
It's a gospel from the early years of digital recording... It made sense at the time, but kinda lost it's purpose in this era of higher bit depth and sample rate.
Good info, nice to spread the word. Been enjoying way improved sound quality on my plugins the past few weeks 🤘🤘
Thank you for sharing your expertise with us❤
it makes sense when you think about it, it's just pretty much everyone was told the same thing about turning it up to just before clipping so if you learned that starting out probably didn't question it when it was so common
I love a boost pedal into the Hi-Z input for amp models. Having a physical knob is great for going between different guitars/pickups. -12DB peaks sound really great and -6DB peaks for some really cooking sounds.
Well that solves a lot. I’ve struggled using amp models on my computer and I guess this is the answer. Your amp model sounds great BTW. I’ll have to look into getting it.
I always wondered about this and felt the common practice of setting guitar input levels was wrong. Until recently, I had four Focusrite inputs set up with different level settings for four different types of guitar/bass depending on what I was playing. I never liked any of the tones I got until dropping the input levels. I now use a single input for all of my guitars/basses and the tones I get are more inline with what I would expect. Whereas before I would be lucky to find one or two tones I liked, I now have the control and dynamic feedback that is closer to what an amp actually provides.
I've been using DI & Guitar Rig with a Focusrite for prolly 5 years cause apartment life brought me to it, and at the end of the day, yea, it's all about getting the sound you want.
Zero input gain on the interface with a cranked modeled amp sounds great. Increased input gain on the interface with an un-cranked modeled amp also sounds great, depending on what you're doing.
I love to play clean rhythm with my Strat with the input gain on my interface increased, to a modeled amp that's not cranked. And then playing lead with my SG with interface input at zero, to a cranked modeled amp in Guitar Rig. Sounds killer, lots of fun.
Sidenote: that digital interface console looks awesome, i want it
Hi Rabea. Thanks a lot. Your Plugin looks fantastic. I'm really considering get it for my projets. Thanks again for all your help and inspiration. Take Care.
What I love about STL tones in the input has an auto setting....when you do it it ask you to play notes and adjust the input accordingly....brilliant
Same with modern metal's clairevoyant amp.... I really would love that feature to be added to Neural stuff
@@DanHovington yes definitely
The problem with that is that different gain pickups would sound the same. If you want the most realistic sound, you'd still just have the gain at 0. If you don't care about a realistic sound, you should set it by taste anyways. So I really don't see a point in such a function
@@iurigrang Very interesting point, but to have tried it I can say (for clairvoyant) it works great and my guitars still sound a bit different. Don't want to go into the whole pick-ups don't matter argument but for volume matching different gear it's also great. But I do find your argument very interesting and worth more digging into
@@iurigrang ive noticed that...tried adjusting to 0 this morning and a bigg difference
I always turned my instrument level signals up to just before clipping to get a nice signal to noise ratio. There's even a video where Misha from Periphery tells you how to do this on the Scarlett 2i2. So yeah I just always did that and then when I got some nice Neural Plugins I wondered why they sounded over saturated. Only learned this trick myself recently and it has done wonders.
Thanks for the info Rabea, keep shredding.
I also thought this was common sense but it's nice to have a refresher course for people. the input on the interface is there to get a good level going into your daw. The rule of thumb that I've always stuck with is to play your guitar the hardest you can till you see it peak, once you've seen where you peak on your hardest hit note, chord and palm mute you pull the input gain to just under peaking. that way when you're playing you get a solid amount of head room to work with in playing dynamics for starters. having head room is key when tracking ANYTHING. Gain staging lol...
I've been recording the way you advised since I watched this video and YES, it has made a noticeable improvement in the overall sound when I use Pedal and Amp models. For me, the biggest improvement is that now my "real" pedals (overdrives, modulation) sound much better once they hit the amp molders inside my DAW. Basically all the amp behave more like they would in real life. I'm really glad I checked out your video. Thanks for doing it. I used to be able to use my real amps to record (via a mic) but the last few years I have had to switch to using amp molders so I don't bum out the family.
I should add that the only drawback is that now the waveforms of my recorded guitar tracks are really small which make it slightly more difficult to do edits unless I really zoom in. But that's a small price to pay for a much improved overall sound.
This is an important video and thank you for making this. Would love to hear more about the steps you take to get the cleanest DI signal and sound. These plugin's seem to have a very high noise floor that has been frustrating to overcome, however, I'm not very experienced and this video has made me realize that there is a lot of bad info out there. What else am I doing wrong? I still hear quite a buzz even while I am playing it doesn't seem to be a ground issue with my guitar which is what every tells me.
Thanks, this is informative, helpful and relevant.
This is a nice revelation for me. Whenever I am tracking bass on a project i notice it’s toasty. Thanks!
I could have sworn the reason I dialled up my DI gain was based advice in a video of yours from wayyyy back.
It was.
This is why I love my Audient Evo 8. Has a built in feature that auto sets input level. You just tap the input button and play as hard as you're gonna play and it will auto set the input threshold for you which puts you right at the top of the green of the input meter so that at your hardest playing you're maybe hitting the yellow here and there. Once it sets the level you'll never hit the red and clip. Highly recommend Audient interfaces, incredible preamps in them and again, auto level is an amazing feature.
On the video itself, great information and I think the confusion is mostly coming from people who are new to home recording it maybe using a plug in because plug in presets especially, will have different output levels so you're trying to juggle what the interface is doing and what the presets are doing. I've come to learn that I get my interface input signal right first and then adjust plug in presets on the fly, like Bea is saying, same thing you'd do as if you had an amp and you ramp up the gain or master volume. A good interface will control the levels for you so you don't clip so really all you have to do is control what your amp or plugin is outputting, barely go over the green and you're set.
Take note also that if you're using more than one preset in a plug in you'll need to remember the gain levels of each one and try to get them even enough that you're not having massive output/volume spikes or valleys so what I do, I have a few Neural Plugins including Rabea's, is after I've picked a preset and tweaked it I'll get my volume levels between presets in the same range and just do a "save as" and rename the plugin to whatever the song title is and add to it the tag "rhythm" or "heavy" or "clean".
That really helps your workflow because you're not having to keep setting up your plugins preset volume etc.
Think of it like getting your car a fresh oil change, full tank of gas, making sure your tires are in good shape and you've packed all you need for a long drive and once you've got that all done, you're ready to drive , no worries and nothing to slow you down and that really helps the creative flow, you don't want to be in the zone and playing good but your inspiration gets robbed because you're having to stop and fool with your plugins.
Great video, fundamentals are always worth addressing, so many young and new players need to see this and it was good for me to see it again and reaffirm I've been doing something right. This is why I keep coming back to Bea, he is great at making things simple to understand. That's a real gift. 🤘😁🤘
Confusion comes from: A. Not all interface DI are same level at zero B. Some plugins/plugin manufacturers tell you to turn up DI to near clipping levels (overloud THU, amplitube, STL tones all do, for example) C. Some plugin manufacturers give you no insight or guidance at all. Im sure there's more reasons but those are the stand outs to me. The 3 plugins i mentioned are more accurate with the DI turned up how they specify
Super helpful to know, thank you Bea!
I learned about signal to noise ratio when studying audio engineering, so that's where i got the idea from i think.. And i guess since people online were talking about turning the input up for amp plugins, i assumed that was the way to do it. And it just becama habit i didn't think twice about lol.
About Load boxes. Most of them have a transformer inside. If u crank output level knob it's starts to color the sound after u pass 12 o'clock on a dial. U can simply find out it by recording 2 samples for example on 11 o'clock and 3 o'clock on a dial and than level match it in a DAW. U gonna be surprise how strong a Load box coloring the sound after 12 o'clock
Common sense points, and good analogy between gain knob and boost pedal. Apart from that, that Kraken model sounds great. And, also sounds like the mk.II Kraken is an improvement over the prototype, sounds very similar, but a tad smoother. Which I like. So, good job with the plugin, and good job with the amp iterations.
I'm going to be honest. I've been using guitar plugins for over a decade and I've NEVER heard the mention of just simply engaging the instrument button on your interface's input and putting the gain knob down to zero. I remember YEARS ago using a plugin and I was like "This is so noisy and sounds like like crap." and I never revisited it again. I'm sure I did as most of us have and turned the gain knob up while doing something like palm mutes to get a proper gain level. As many have been shown over the years. Yesterday I went ahead and did as you described, I can absolutely hear the difference. Thank you for making this video Rab ❤
Now that I’ve started using this method (zero in the interface), I have to get used to the smaller waveforms in my DAW. Of course I then utilize the daw’s gain to boost when needed.
Neural and all the rest should update their manuals to state this recommendation. Hoping this trickles down to the designers soon enough so going forward there is no more confusion.
Wouldn't another easy fix be just to lower the input gain of the plugin? My DI tracks record way too low if I use no gain on the input, to the point where noise floor becomes an issue.
That a very good question! My understanding is that it would be better to use the gain on the interface to maximize the range of the signal on which the A/D converter is working, in order to have a good "signal to noise" ratio, and then lower the gain on the plugin to recreate the real life situation a lower level signal driving the amp, but in the digital domain.
@@scottyecoraI absolutely agree. The AD converter should get a signal as healthy as possible (without clipping). This will differ both between interfaces and instruments.
The signal within the DAW then has good signal to noise ratio and can still be tamed down using the input gain (of the PlugIn, not the gain knob of the amp simulation). Should be much less "lossy" as it then already is processed in 32bit float.
@@thewaldfe9763I shall however correct myself : the aim is not signal-to-noise ratio, as I wrote it, but using the full range of the converter, and thus using as much bits as possible to encode the original signal.
Your sig looks so nice man! I use your plugin daily and I suppose I've been using it correctly. Woo
Can’t tell ya how many times I’ve gotten a DI track from someone and it’s super blown out and when trying to reamp a nice clean tone it’s def not ideal! With heavy sounds it’s less of an issue but still not pleasant to have clipped source material. The Neve 1073opx handles dynamic instrument DI better than any preamp I’ve had previous. It’s amazing. I’ve had grace Focusrite isa and Rednet and those are all great but the Neve has a soft clip effect that saves the peaks.
And this is something that I didn’t know for the 7 years of use of my interface (!!).
Honestly they should have made it so the switch to instrument would deactivate any control from the front of the interface, this would have made more sense even if you might need a little more level on some instrument, at this point someone that knows could have juste use the regular line input side of things…
As someone who made this mistake, I'd always worked on the basis that I should turn up my gain on the interface until the signal was just touching the clipping point and then backed it off a bit for headroom. I never thought that my overly harsh tones were a result of that and have struggled to address it in the VSTs I've used for ages.
Finding out that I should have the interface gain down to zero a couple of weeks ago was a game changer. My tones sound so much better now.
I think it's a fairly easy mistake to make when you're learning by just reading stuff online and there's so much to digital recording to grasp. You don't know if what you're reading is good advice a lot of the time.
Honestly I’ve sort of been ignoring this topic but definitely some eye-opening info here. I looked into it for myself and realized any active instrument is supposed to go into a DI box prior to interface (which luckily I do now anyway…but I used to plug my active bass right into the interface)
Thank you. As a noob who is trying to learn how to do home recording through UA-cam videos, I apparently have been doing this wrong the entire time. So basically plug your guitar into your interface (HI Z or instrument mode engaged), leave your interface gain level at Zero and leave the Amp plugin virtual input level nob at zero (unless your going for a more "pushed" sound before hitting the amp plugin). Is this correct?
The term to use is Cascade Gain Staging. Unless the DI is transformer coupled where you’re getting more snot out of the input signal, there is nothing to be gained from turning up a DI signal at input. And it’s only really useable if you also have an attenuation to control the level hitting the computer.
In other words, if you drive a transformer coupled DI input to pick up harmonic content from the transformer on the DI input, you’ll need a way to turn that signal down before hitting your plugin.
Clipping at any stage is not a “sound” anyone wants even if you can’t hear it.
Using a clipper in post is a very different process
✌️
Cool to see you still have the two notes rack
There's an analog to digital conversion happening right after the analog DI (assuming most interfaces now include such inputs). If there were ever a point to gaining up an analog DI preceding an amp sim it's to maximize the number of bits utilized in that conversion process. This will maximize dynamic range and minimize quantization distortion.. This also will no doubt subsequently maximize downstream processing vis a vis your amp sim. When the input signal is hitting the plugin's input gain control it's already in the digital domain. If you're looking to have the plugin match some actual amplifier in terms of its tonal characteristics with **the knobs in a certain position** then your best bet is to use that input control on the plugin to find that sweet spot. Note that this input gain control has 24dB of gain **in both directions**. Too hot? Turn it down. Not hot enough? Turn it up. The point to the whole "tickle the red, and then back it off" approach is so that there are sufficient bits representing both nailing the strings hard, and then also gently touching them - or - you know - using the guitar's volume knob to turn it down. It's not necessarily about finding a certain tone (although that is certainly also possible if you like that kind of thing).
Extremely underrated comment! 0 pre-gain leads to lower SNR and waste of bits of dynamic range, this is what happens when people without a technical background decide to "explain" something to a huge audience...
@@alessandroproverbio3411 pre-gain of audio interface or inside the plugin?
@@kempguitar6235 interface!
@@alessandroproverbio3411Exactly, and the level of confusion it brings is a bit worrying. I had a look to the videos from which all that bullshit started. It's quite clear that the poster misunderstands the notion of signal-to-noise ratio and has no clue about the inner workings of an A/D converter. But still, from that lack of understanding, he elaborates recommendations on how to set up the input gain of a plugin based on the maximum level of the interface in order to have "accurate modelling". It's very impressive... in a really bad way!
Watched a video years back where Misha showed how he records his guitars and he would raise the input level until clipping. Since he is such a respected player and producer I just trusted him and used that technique for years. I would use PAD to drop the level and extra 20db but I would still adjust the level until right before clipping. I really think neural should include a quick-start guide with their plugins that explain this properly. I would’ve saved a lot of time and had better sounding mixes
My RME Fireface 802 also has a Hi-Z input but doesn't reach usable levels without gain on the input. I've tried it after seeing some of the videos about that matter. My old Scarlets and my Clarett also needed a boost to be usable with guitar at all, even with Hi-Z.
Hi, thank you for this video.
One question because I am not sure to have understood what I see : when using a loadbox after your real Kraken amp, are you using the DI signal from the load box as input for your plugin ? If so aren't you using 2 amps in serie, which would certainly denaturate the Kraken sounding ? I must have not correctly understood.
Last point : what do you think of guitar dedicated JFET inputs on some audio interfaces, many think they are better ?
A while ago I just recorded some test tracks and realized my DAW was clipping...and the crazy thing is that on its own, maybe with a pedal in front, it's not a terrible sound, just not the right idea for gainy amp sims or really any amp sim.
But if you get bored try a tube screamer overdriving your interface.
Tech support at Neural DSP said about -12db levels on the input great video 🤘💀🍻🔥🙏
Is there music playing in the background of the room where you record your voice?
I hear some track playing, when your voice hits the threshold of the noise gate. Are those sneak peeks?
Ok,your explication is clear about DI input ! But what about plugin input level ? I can see on your it's to zero. But there is a lot of gap before clipping. Do you level up sometimes or never ? Thx ! Love
Great video, as always Bea ❤. I've been using the Gojira plugin and loving the filthy tones. But the cleanest amp is still dirty. I searched through a lot of the presets for a clean sound and didn't find one. I was able to get beautiful cleans but lowering the input of the plugin, then boosting the output of the plugin to bring the volume back up. I know it's not the same thing Bea was talking about with DI levels, but it's in the same realm and worth a mention.
John Nathan Cordy did a fantastic video on this as well… and referenced probably the most learned individual on this subject.
I've seen too many videos of people talking about this concept of optimal levels of interface input vs plugin input level and to me it seems to come from a lack of understanding of gain staging and signal to noise ratio. Interface preamps are generally clean, but you don't want to clip them or drive them too hard. Get a comfortable level (in the green area of the input meter on a colored scale), then use the plugin input level to choose how much level you want to clean boost into the plugin. It really is simple and people are making it some complicated thing
Thanks for this Rabea - out of interest, is there a recommended level of headroom you would give your clean DI before it hits your Neural plugin - perhaps just as a starting point for us to work with?
I don't have your plug-in but I have another one from neural and I did raise the input level of my interface be cause neural dsp wrote that instruction in the manual and on its own web site! The company that makes the plug in told us too raise the input level in its own user manual.
That's why we raised our input levels.
I finally got around to checking this out on my focusrite and neural plugins. I couldnt believe the difference. It just felt and sounded right when i set the interface to instrument and 0 level. I even fired up Rocksmith 2014 and it was detecting my notes more accurately. Although rocksmith on 5 string bass is still hit and miss. But i did feel like i wasnt fighting rocksmith as much.
Because of you and one other youtuber, guitar recording will never be the same
do you plugin to the mic insert or the hi-z. when i use the hi-z it's already clipping without increasing the input level at all lol
I have a (real, not virtual!) Deluxe Reverb which will just start driving at about 5 or 6? The DR in Amplitude was driving at 1! Basically my Focusrite was acting like a boost pedal. I always thought I had to dial in the gain knob so it didn't go yellow or red and stayed green. Blimey - thanks Rabea!
One of the main things I’ve always struggled with when recording over the last ten or so years is guitars. I always hear people get incredible tones from plugins and they’re the only form of amps that I’ve used outside of my practice amp I’ve had since getting a guitar.
I’ve always looked at videos of amp sims and questioned why my tones come out sounding nowhere near what other folks are getting from them. It’s been disheartening the whole time because despite getting new gear I’ve always had the same issue and it always sounds underwhelming. It even made a BKP Juggernaut sound bad, and it was weird getting better tones out of a 150 quid practice amp.
Turns out this was the issue I’ve been having the whole time! Was always told to turn the interface’s gain knob until just before the signal clips in order to get the “optimal” signal strength. Just turned it down to zero and it’s a night and day difference. Tones sound ridiculous, level, and just right. Huge game-changer for me and it’s basically fixed the one problem I’ve had with mixing music for the last decade, so thank you so much for this Bea! You’re a hero!
Thanks for this Bea! I have another question, is there any place for normalisation of DI tracks? Two Notes says it best works with a normalised guitar signal. Would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this. Thanks.
when I was 14 I recorded onto acid pro using the microphone jack DIMED for that smooth sound card distortion.
Thanks for the corroboration, I decided to leave the DI at zero a while ago.
Some guy name Ed did some great research on l this and John cordy did some videos as well really helped make sense of it all
yeah, i think that's what might have started all this.
Yeah, I think to me I was just baffled that it was even an issue in the first place. I’ve never gained up a DI when using a plugin for guitar. So I figured I’d give a quick explanation. It seems a lot of people, even those guys gain up their DI’s and it’s just not the right way to do it (unless you want more gain hitting the plugin). So hopefully this helps
I think this has to do with the pickups people use running into their interface. Whenever I use my Strat with very low output pickups, the signal is so low going into the interface that both Ableton and Logic stuggles to find the transients when using warp/flex. It still sounds and feels really good because the plugins does what an amplifier should, but seeing such low signals really makes turning up the signal the first logical (although as demonstrated - wrong) step@@RabeaMassaad
I think this has recently been updated but from Neural's website it tells you: Step 2 - Make sure the Hi-Z input gain is at its minimum value. That should be enough to get a good signal level.
@@RabeaMassaad I think the issue is that generally people are used to adjusting the input gain knob on the interface to get a decent (non clipping) input. We do this when using a mic for instance. For instance, with single coils you probably could have added some gain to the input without actually clipping but I believe the advice is to leave the channel gain knob all the way down.
I think it probably comes from the days of tape when you tried to get the hottest signal to tape without totally clipping the channel.
I always turned the gain on the D.I. up just a bit. Basically so that on my hardest chugs it's just below clipping.
I've got my UAD Apollo input basically at 0 which means it's around -4 to -6 or so hitting the plug-in. I think there's a number to hit for whatever input you're using.
Rabea and all, how would you deal with a Unison plug-in like a Neve 1073 in the UAD Console then? The way I'm doing it at the moment is that I use the 'red gain knob' to my liking, and then level the output to land at ~ minus 12.5db. Or other times I leave the red knob off and level just the output if even needed to hit ~ minus 12.5db.
all this talk about the input settings !...I understand better now but is the optimum 48Hz and 128 samples if no crackling please Bea ? and is it ok to play with the output for some more dB :)
What if I'm using a DI box that converts my Line-Level signal to a low-impedance microphone signal? Would the Mic-Level signal on my interface ( Quad Cortex) make the level correct?
Good to know, thanks for the tip!
Just to confirm, if I use a plugin like this I should keep my interface gain all the way down as that’s the natural guitar signal?
I can’t believe I’ve never realised this 😂 I always turn the gain up so it’s near clipping so it’s a good signal but this makes so much more sense. Thanks man!
Will have to give this a bash, never understood why i couodnt get guitar plugins to sound any good.
Cheers sir
I needed this video. Thank you 🙏🏾
I have a scarlett 2i2 gen 3. And the level that the chart thats been going around shows that it is at 12.5 max. But thats with the instrument button turned on. If i turn that button on my guitar clips the signal even with the input gain turned all the way down. What should i do?
Is this the same when you intend to re-amp? Turning up the input gain on a DI makes it much easier to identify transients. What about recording hot and then backing down the input gain on the amp sim?
when I record I have a (sm57)Mic in front of a cab on one input (into a 2i4), and an emulated out from my head to the other input... kinda, because I put it through a mixer first, with Mic on one channel balanced left, and the emulated out balanced right, so the focusrite actually gets the output of the mixer. So how should I have my inst/line and pad switches? (I'm an old fart and very new to DAW's and Interfaces). I presume as a general rule I want whatever setting allows me to use the least gain?
I'm curious as to wether or not this is also true for using the QC on itself. If plugins expect a Dynamic range of about 12.2dB, is the same true for the models on the QC itself?
So should we raise input to around +3dB (as max input is 15dB on the QC at 1MOhm Impedance) ?
Or do you let sit at 0dB, like you would an interface + plugin?
Hey man this makes a ton of sense! The thing is though, that I remember seeing a video of Misha Mansoor where he says you should turn up your gain on the interface so that, when you hit the strings as hard as you can, it just doesn't clip, meaning on a focusrite for example, that the ring around the knob is as close as possible to turning orange, but not quite. I have done that ever since and never given it a second thought. So I guess my question is: Was I supposed to not turn up the input gain at all, and instead work on it inside the plugin, meaning misha was "wrong"?
What has confused people, myself included, I think, is that some notes just don't ring out the way they do on an amplifier, and when I turned up the input gain it did.
So i have a Line 6 HX running into a Scarlett 2i2 running into my DAW. Im a little confused, what should i do with that in terms of the “correct way” lol