I was hoping you could let us know if the Talaria run while your charging the battery. I use a gas generator in tow for my DIY ebikes and was hoping I can do the same with the Talaria. I'd like to go to the grocery store and back without having to wait an hour plus just to charge enough to get back home. Some folks think this is dangerous but its similar to using a phone while its being charged. Plus I've tested my 3kw hub ebike with the gas gene' and it was fine for a 6 hour trip without losing much power from the battery.
How careful do we need to be, what dont we want to touch. Seem like in the video its pretty relaxed as if there was minimal danger. What should I watch out for?
Be very careful! Although 72v DC probably will not give you a shock if your hands are dry, anything over 60v DC is considered dangerous, I think. Wear rubber gloves. If you are careless and let power wires touch, you'll get a lot of sparking, and possibly a fire if the short is maintained for too long. If you're not sure what you're doing, don't attempt this mod.
If I disconnect just negative terminals on the negative bus bar and leave the battery like that for a couple days will it be ok? Will the bms still be working and mess up the voltage between each cell if I did this? Thanks!
I think that would be ok-I don't think the BMS would be working at that point. The cells would just be at rest, as if you disconnected the battery. But really I'm not sure about that specific case. You could unplug the BMS entirely and then it would certainly not be doing anything... Bypassing the BMS is risky in that you are bypassing a safety feature of the battery in order to get more power, so it's up to you if you want to proceed.
How are people checking voltage/ battery level after bypass. First charge after bypass i got 09 error which is overcharge. Do i need to install external voltmeter?
Can you make a video on how you obtain the 16 series and 8 parallel? Trying to rap my head around how the batteries are hooked up. At first I thought the layers and rows would be the defining factor but still learning haha
The easy way to think of it is with layers and rows equal to the series and parallel amounts, but when trying to make a pack with a certain dimension, it becomes necessary to make a more complicated layout. But is behaves the same way, and is connected the same way throughout the pack, as if it were as you describe. You can search for 18650 battery pack design or similar and find more info about how cells can be connected to make a pack.
Thanks for posting the battery tear down. It is great to finally have some concrete information on the stock Talaria Sting battery and not just some regurgitated stuff with no data to back it up. With the max continuous discharge rate (10-25C) of the Talaria pack at 115A should one expect that running at 140A for a period of time (like what is often recommended on the Interwebs) would cause battery degradation and overheating. There doesn't appear to be any info on what the max burst discharge` rate is and the max amount of time that the burst could safely be sustained. Could you comment on that?
Yes, I would expect that running these cells at a discharge rate over the factory specs for extended amounts of time would overheat and/or shorten the life of the cells. Using a snowbike kit, it's often at WOT so it would be pulling the max amps allowed by the controller. You're correct, there is not a mention of a maximum burst current, that would probably have to be ascertained by testing.
I'd like to add some more of those LG 21700 cells in front of the rear shock area, behind the main 60V 45Ah battery and use another 180A continuous BMS to link the two packs together for a combined 72V ~ 84V voltage. Interesting that they would balance charge the cells in packs of eight and it would probably have to be the same configuration for the secondary auxiliary battery pack. I'm guessing another 32 LG 21700 cells for a total of 160 combined cells would get me in the 75V 56Ah range for the two battery packs linked together.
On Low Voltage Cutoff (LVC). If I am reading it correctly, the data sheet says a normal discharge cycle goes down to 2.5v/cell or 40.0v for the pack. The KO Controller has a LVC of 48.0v or 3.0v/cell. The stock Talaria controller has a much more conservative/higher LVC (0% battery), I think it is around 52v. Do you have any ideas of why Talaria has such a high LVC? Is there any reason that one shouldn't use a LVC of 48v ?
If you look at a discharge curve of a lithium 18650 cell, it would make sense. The curve is pretty steep at 2.5 volts, so it doesn't take much more current draw to pull it down below 2.5 which you don't want to do. The amount of extra ride time you'll get by lowering the LVC is pretty minimal, and not worth the risk IMO especially if you're drawing around the max that the cells are rated for. Also, the higher the current you're drawing, the lower the voltage due to sag, and also the less capacity the pack will have. Anyway, 3.25 per cell as the cutoff (52v) wouldn't lose much capacity and would help preserve your pack I think.
Have you run across a Talaria battery where after you hit the idicator button, it lights up and then leaves the red light on and the bottom green light blinks 8 times, then another 8 times and then shuts off? Battery won't charge and won't turn on the bike.
@@looperidepersonalelectrict7003 Not that I would think. I bypassed it and then tweaked my KO Moto Nano controller settings. Rode a couple times while dialing in the controller. The last ride was about 17 miles and then I parked it. Waited til the next day to recharge. I thought I heard it run for a couple hours. Then I tried to ride the next day and I got Error 08 on the display.
@@tomorrowtactical Not sure. Probably you should follow up with KO Moto. The 08 Charge circuit error could have something to do with the bypass, especially if that was the first charge after the bypass, you should probably double check wiring. You might also check your battery pack voltage as a reference for talking to KO Moto support.
@@looperidepersonalelectrict7003 I don't think its the controller. I was able to use another battery and it runs just fine. I have double and triple checked the wiring. Not seeing anything. What would be the safest way to undo the bypass? That's all I have left to try.
I have a bad news for you. I think your BMS bricked (sofware collapsed inside) I saw a few videos about battery bypassing, and in one of them the guy mentions we can easely brick the BMS because if you pull off the main voltage supply from the BMS or the balancer connectors, it can cause BMS to confuse and after that, will never charge your batteries.
I preordered the rush spec controller which is capable of 1800 phase amps…ko says you can only go up to around 520 so was curious how they obtained this figure..
1/3 of the rating is the approximate buffer so to speak. I'd never run at max (150A) according to that though. Running about 120A currently. I'll upgrade to 72v if I want more.
@@buckfiden2988No issues with your motor getting too hot? I’m set at 8kw and 650 phase amps. The KO app motor temp monitor keeps going into the yellow toward the top end of the temp range. I expect it to run hotter but am curious what others have experienced.
Nice video.
I was hoping you could let us know if the Talaria run while your charging the battery. I use a gas generator in tow for my DIY ebikes and was hoping I can do the same with the Talaria. I'd like to go to the grocery store and back without having to wait an hour plus just to charge enough to get back home. Some folks think this is dangerous but its similar to using a phone while its being charged. Plus I've tested my 3kw hub ebike with the gas gene' and it was fine for a 6 hour trip without losing much power from the battery.
Looks like a very good built quality for stock battery
Great video. I'm a shop out in Monument CO. I was real curious on what cells they used
How are you getting the battery pack out of the sealed case it’s pretty tight in there!
Hi, great video. How long are the bypass cables? Thank you
How careful do we need to be, what dont we want to touch. Seem like in the video its pretty relaxed as if there was minimal danger. What should I watch out for?
Be very careful! Although 72v DC probably will not give you a shock if your hands are dry, anything over 60v DC is considered dangerous, I think. Wear rubber gloves. If you are careless and let power wires touch, you'll get a lot of sparking, and possibly a fire if the short is maintained for too long. If you're not sure what you're doing, don't attempt this mod.
If I disconnect just negative terminals on the negative bus bar and leave the battery like that for a couple days will it be ok? Will the bms still be working and mess up the voltage between each cell if I did this? Thanks!
I think that would be ok-I don't think the BMS would be working at that point. The cells would just be at rest, as if you disconnected the battery. But really I'm not sure about that specific case. You could unplug the BMS entirely and then it would certainly not be doing anything... Bypassing the BMS is risky in that you are bypassing a safety feature of the battery in order to get more power, so it's up to you if you want to proceed.
How are people checking voltage/ battery level after bypass. First charge after bypass i got 09 error which is overcharge. Do i need to install external voltmeter?
Can you make a video on how you obtain the 16 series and 8 parallel? Trying to rap my head around how the batteries are hooked up. At first I thought the layers and rows would be the defining factor but still learning haha
The easy way to think of it is with layers and rows equal to the series and parallel amounts, but when trying to make a pack with a certain dimension, it becomes necessary to make a more complicated layout. But is behaves the same way, and is connected the same way throughout the pack, as if it were as you describe. You can search for 18650 battery pack design or similar and find more info about how cells can be connected to make a pack.
Thanks for posting the battery tear down. It is great to finally have some concrete information on the stock Talaria Sting battery and not just some regurgitated stuff with no data to back it up.
With the max continuous discharge rate (10-25C) of the Talaria pack at 115A should one expect that running at 140A for a period of time (like what is often recommended on the Interwebs) would cause battery degradation and overheating.
There doesn't appear to be any info on what the max burst discharge` rate is and the max amount of time that the burst could safely be sustained. Could you comment on that?
Yes, I would expect that running these cells at a discharge rate over the factory specs for extended amounts of time would overheat and/or shorten the life of the cells. Using a snowbike kit, it's often at WOT so it would be pulling the max amps allowed by the controller. You're correct, there is not a mention of a maximum burst current, that would probably have to be ascertained by testing.
Do I need to get a new controller when I do this mod or is the Stock controller fine?
I'd like to add some more of those LG 21700 cells in front of the rear shock area, behind the main 60V 45Ah battery and use another 180A continuous BMS to link the two packs together for a combined 72V ~ 84V voltage. Interesting that they would balance charge the cells in packs of eight and it would probably have to be the same configuration for the secondary auxiliary battery pack. I'm guessing another 32 LG 21700 cells for a total of 160 combined cells would get me in the 75V 56Ah range for the two battery packs linked together.
On Low Voltage Cutoff (LVC). If I am reading it correctly, the data sheet says a normal discharge cycle goes down to 2.5v/cell or 40.0v for the pack. The KO Controller has a LVC of 48.0v or 3.0v/cell. The stock Talaria controller has a much more conservative/higher LVC (0% battery), I think it is around 52v.
Do you have any ideas of why Talaria has such a high LVC?
Is there any reason that one shouldn't use a LVC of 48v ?
If you look at a discharge curve of a lithium 18650 cell, it would make sense. The curve is pretty steep at 2.5 volts, so it doesn't take much more current draw to pull it down below 2.5 which you don't want to do. The amount of extra ride time you'll get by lowering the LVC is pretty minimal, and not worth the risk IMO especially if you're drawing around the max that the cells are rated for. Also, the higher the current you're drawing, the lower the voltage due to sag, and also the less capacity the pack will have. Anyway, 3.25 per cell as the cutoff (52v) wouldn't lose much capacity and would help preserve your pack I think.
Have you run across a Talaria battery where after you hit the idicator button, it lights up and then leaves the red light on and the bottom green light blinks 8 times, then another 8 times and then shuts off? Battery won't charge and won't turn on the bike.
I haven't encountered that. Did the battery get over discharged?
@@looperidepersonalelectrict7003 Not that I would think. I bypassed it and then tweaked my KO Moto Nano controller settings. Rode a couple times while dialing in the controller. The last ride was about 17 miles and then I parked it. Waited til the next day to recharge. I thought I heard it run for a couple hours. Then I tried to ride the next day and I got Error 08 on the display.
@@tomorrowtactical Not sure. Probably you should follow up with KO Moto. The 08 Charge circuit error could have something to do with the bypass, especially if that was the first charge after the bypass, you should probably double check wiring. You might also check your battery pack voltage as a reference for talking to KO Moto support.
@@looperidepersonalelectrict7003 I don't think its the controller. I was able to use another battery and it runs just fine. I have double and triple checked the wiring. Not seeing anything. What would be the safest way to undo the bypass? That's all I have left to try.
I have a bad news for you. I think your BMS bricked (sofware collapsed inside) I saw a few videos about battery bypassing, and in one of them the guy mentions we can easely brick the BMS because if you pull off the main voltage supply from the BMS or the balancer connectors, it can cause BMS to confuse and after that, will never charge your batteries.
2:50 the rating allso depends on how many cells you have in paralell
Yeah, at 2:25 I mention that. 8 in parallel. 14.4X8 = 115.2 :)
Is this an MX3 or MX4 battery?
It's got to be an MX3. I wondered the same thing but the MX4 appears to have a 145 amp BMS. Way more punch than the MX3.
Also how would you calculate the max phase amps?
That depends on the controller not the battery layout, other than max battery amps.
I preordered the rush spec controller which is capable of 1800 phase amps…ko says you can only go up to around 520 so was curious how they obtained this figure..
@@Josho67 I guess that's a question for KO Moto, let me know what they say :)
Not so good cells
1/3 of the rating is the approximate buffer so to speak. I'd never run at max (150A) according to that though. Running about 120A currently. I'll upgrade to 72v if I want more.
Are you having issues with the motor overheating? What do you have the phase amps set to?
@@DirtyFresh Wide open IIRC.
@@buckfiden2988No issues with your motor getting too hot? I’m set at 8kw and 650 phase amps. The KO app motor temp monitor keeps going into the yellow toward the top end of the temp range. I expect it to run hotter but am curious what others have experienced.
@@DirtyFresh Check your bike for drag in the chain or wheels.
How are you getting the battery pack out of the sealed case it’s pretty tight in there!