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you should still comment on it in the video. you previous community posts shouldve be doubled on in this video. hope the guy thats being sued comes out ahead.
@@KuramaKitsune1I do welding fabrication and our welding leads if we're pumping a lot of amperage would you do that they'll actually twist until you break the arc after you break the arc they relax and go back down
Less of a review, more of an investigation and dissection. Testing; Passed Review; It's a great battery. Met or exceeded the manufacturer's specifications. Investigation and Dissection; Inadequate Design and Engineering. Poor Quality Control. Poor build quality. Opinion; The battery operates fine but I wouldn't trust it at or above the level of lead acid.
The funniest thing is the Australian government tested these things, there's a report on an Aussie government website, and the government decided they were garbage too.
I think it's that DCS will be watching these videos and the backlash for suing somebody, for telling the truth, has brought their business down. They will probably already have changed their trading name and still be putting out the same but at least this mole got whacked.
The Au govt report is for a DCS battery but not a vehicle battery. It is a home storage battery. However the results are shocking. The DCS battery is so far off all the others tested that the testers contacted DCS to ask what was happening. DCS simply asked for the battery back so they they could check it themselves. Louis Rossmann covered it all in his follow up vid.
I'm Australian and this DCS company literally lives 20kms from me!! What they've done is absolutely embarrass themselves with their arrogance, and completely exposed themselves with their poor product. There are many reputable Aussie businesses that provide great products and customer service.... DCS provides the complete opposite!
Are they actually Australian owned and operated? Nice cars in the parking lot and people wearing suits? Or does it just look like a 'distribution centre' for somewhere whose head office is actually offshore?
@@phattjohnson DCS is a tiny business. Louis Rossmann painted it out as some multi-million dollar corporation and it's not. They have less that 20 employees and barely anyone in Australia has heard of them.
Which legislation are you talking about? This is a private company suing an individual for defamation and has nothing to do with the government. I think DCS are foolish and will lose but the government has no skin in the game for these civil matters.
Louis Rossmann has really opened up a Hornet's nest related to this Battery, and wow once opened up it's just a cheap ass battery with a high price tag, well done exposing this
Louis Rossman discusses the testing the Aussie government did, where they found the DCS batteries were crap compared to all their competitors. The same result the reviewer found. This result is published in official Aus Gov documents on an official Aus Gov website.
Not even compared to the competitors, just compared to a set of very basic performance criteria. And when you deal with some of the crap that did get through, that says all it needs to say without saying things out loud. lol
When you say "an official Aus Gov website." are you implying there is also an un-official Aus Gov website and the same for your "official Aus Gov documents"
@@sheerluckholmes5468 More just reinforcing that it wasn't just an opinion piece by an official politician, or some bozo who works for an official government department, but is not held to the same level of scrutiny.
@@stevegraham3817 Hmmmm, here we go again... an "official politician" as opposed to?? and aren't all government departments 'official'? Stop with the word 'official' already is what I'm trying to convey to you.
@@sheerluckholmes5468 To put it so a 5 year old understands - Gov paid INDEPENDENT research company, did very detailed and technical stuff over a long time with lots of batteries and companies comparing them on a level playing field. ie. they just didnt collect the companies tech sheet and list the specifications. FFS
but its a llie when the review he talks about is of a different product. Unless a review of a 1930s Volkswagon Beetle is a valid critique of a 2024 Rolls Royce - both of which are made by the same company.
But they're NOT crap, that is just the impression given by those with that agenda. Stretching the truth is called marketing, that doesn't mean the batteries don't do what they should, as this video proves.
Espionage and sabotage now qualify as "being honest". Try doing the same in Russia, the favored new home of his buddy Snowden. Here in India the populace wouldn't be so kind to a traitor/spy/saboteur either.
I assume you're referring to Julian Assange (as I don;t know of any others that were prosecuted by the US), who is not a journalists in any way. A journalist that receive classified document, that were most likely illegally obtained, will go over them, check their validity, look for problematic/illegal information, corroborate them and publish only what's necessary to prove the findings without endangering lives of others. He would not just dump everything unchecked and unredacted. He would also not be involved in the act of illegally obtaining them. Assange just dropped everything without any actual journalistic action and his past shows that he has the ability, knowledge and capacity to be part of the actual act of obtaining those documents (something that needs to pr proven, of course). parts of those documents were definitely worthy of publications but they should have been published responsibly by real journalists. Assange showed his wrongful and reprehensible methods with other "revelations" by dumping the "Hillary Clinton Email Archive" that he clearly revived from dubious sources that were filled with fake emails. That does not make what the US did acceptable. They went after Julian Assange out of spite, which is never a good idea, which created justified doubt on any possibility of a fair trail by their justice system. Condemnation for his reckless actions while admitting and reacting to some of the horrible/illegal things specified in those document was the best and most effective way to go.
If an idiot wants to attempt to sue, they can. They'll just be thrown out of court. In Australia the burden of proof is on the litigant and truth is a totally valid defence. Not only is truth a defence but even if the statement were not true, then it also has to be proven to have been deliberately intended to harm. Honest opinion is NOT defamation in Australia.
@@brissiAU US is interesting in that the American Rule means big companies can bankrupt individuals with frivolous lawsuits. However, some states have anti SLAPP laws, which allow for early termination of defamation claims and recouping costs.
Sadly the process is used to financially destroy the defendant long before a court hears the facts. It's a simple but effective bully tactic used to crush the individual or small timers.
I started researching lithium based batteries in 2002. I was a marine tech at a busy boatyard in a major recreational boating area sigh man hundreds of boats including power boats and sailboats. The town, actually an island in the Pacific Northwest, which is the gateway to one of the premier cruising areas in the USA. It has many marinas, most for recreational boats from small to medium-large displacement. I was ABYC certified as a marine electrician. Our boat was a 42’ ketch-rigged sailboat which we took to Mexico in 2004. We departed from Mexico in 2006 and sailed across the Pacific to New Zealand, 2004-2006. Before leaving I replaced the old AGM deep cycle batteries (400 ah) with a spiral wound AGM start battery. We did not have any significant electrical system problems over the 4 years out. Sold the boat in NZ. Bought a new/used 42’ sailboat after returning. I replaced the 4 8-D AGM house batteries with 16 3.2v LiFePO4 cells (400 ah) after extensive research in the tech. These did not have a built-in BMS. At the time, only a very few lithium “batteries’ had an integral BMS. The ones that did were a bunch of crap. This was just as Victron was starting to introduce builtin BMS. I selected and installed a BMS from Slovenia. I had to manually equalize each cell before hooking them up. I had to replace the delimit the 100A engine alternator to prevent it from self-destructing from the high current draw of the battery. I had a 200A Yanmar driven alternator but I had to seriously upgrade the cables to handle the very large DC charge current. Separate alternator controllers were added to manage the charge profiles for both alternators, with high voltage and low voltage soft disconnect solenoid contactors to prevent unintended low or high voltage. I mention all this to show that large lithium battery system installations are not for amateurs and that the capabilities of lithium battery systems are variable and subject to wide quality and design problems. Very competent vendors, such as Victron and a very few others, still require a competent marine electrician, thorough manuals and training, and appropriate builtin safeguards. No one likes a fire on a boat. Done right they offer huge advantages over the old tech still in wide use. Much snake oil and mirrors are out there though.
Some of us might be fat and lazy, but I found his tirade there unsound. China can make cheap batteries (and everything else) because their labor cost is a fraction compared to American labor--as everyone knows. The unlazy and unfat American can be several times more productive than a Chinese laborer but will still cost more hourly (wages, but insurance, taxes, & other employee benefits are big expenses that people forget Chinese companies probably have a much lower cost of). That is why, with the current political climate, US companies are moving factories out of China and into other even cheaper labor countries like Vietnam and India. Also, Will might be putting it out there mockingly in frustration, but it is incorrect to call the Chinese communist. The divide between the haves and have nots is greater than in the States. His argument there had no connecting dots. He seems fantastic with the electrical stuff, of course. Just discovered him and am learning a bit.
Try not to get sucked into the mindset of so many, especially in a particular country, that it's all the fault of the Govt. eh? It's embarrassing. We're certainly more than happy that we live in Australia and not most other places tbh.
I love your honest review. I hope DCS pay attention to this review. There is no harm in criticism, in fact it's warranted so changes can be made to make a better product. They should be thankful for the insight, so they can offer the consumer a product worth the money paid.
it's constructive criticism - that should always be appreciated. Now make it better. YOU KNOW ANY ENGINEER OR TECH IN AU COULD HAVE DONE THAT FOR YOU WHY PUT THEM OUT WITH CRAP QC....THAT'S ON THE FACTORY AND THUS, ON YOU.
Some companies want to make a better product so they likely negative feedback so they can make an even better product in the future. Some companies (like DCS obviously) are just looking to collect maximum dollar for the cheapest garbage product possible. Negative reviews hurt that.
First they will need to change the name of the company because the lawsuit probably earned more brand recognition than all of their advertising put together.
Dude, I have absolutely loved your journey to where you are now. I don't know when I stopped being entertained by you, and started being educated by you, but you are now my only TRUSTED source for all things solar!
Great to see this is gaining traction around the world! Bad news travels fast! His complaints were more about longevity of the product though and not honouring warranty. Check their reviews, they're pretty shocking.
In Australia, warranties are merely an extra level of protection. They can't override consumer protection law. One of the principles used by courts in Australia in a consumer protection case is: did the product last as long as you'd expect it to last, considering the cost of the product, any claims made by the distributor about the product and how long other, similar products last? If it fails that benchmark by much, then the courts are more inclined to say that consumer protection law applies and the customer is entitled to appropriate compensation regardless of what any warranty says.
I cannot believe how this situation has gone world wide. Just loving the way Stefan is being backed up by so many UA-camrs. I so look forward to seeing DCS (Australia) go down the poo hole. Regardless of the outcome, no one in Australia will buy their product - even if it is a good product. Why? Because the bully picked on the little guy.
@@davidkelly3779 Except all the big Australian 4x4 youtubers have remained very silent, pretty clear that these 'independent' reviewers are on the take from companies.
@@giddyup3451 It is pretty tough to stick your head up, until a few others have. It starts with one then another and another. Those with the most to lose need to be careful. Those in another country are not so vulnerable.
@@davidkelly3779 yep, those with the most to lose are the ones taking the most money from companies for fake positive reviews. It's becoming pretty obvious who they are.
Even if the case gets to court, it will probably fail. Under Australian law, the truth is a defense in any defamation or libel case. I'm not sure how costs will go, but I expect that the courts will take a dim view of a company bringing a lawsuit which obviously had no merit.
Your 'regardless of the result' means that even if the review was dishonest, and paid for by their competitors you want DCS to fail and all its workers to lose their jobs because they defended themselves. I don't say that that is the case, I'm saying that 'regardless of the outcome' means you don't care about right / wrong just malice against DCS without knowing the cause.
Just watched Louis Rossmann's video on DCS possibly complaining to UA-cam about this video, and trying to get this taken down? Wow that is unbelievalbe. Your review was very fair, and you siimply showed the actual crappy build quality of the product. If UA-cam makes you take down this video I promise I will cancel my UA-cam premium subscription.
"The resistors are 600 degrees" 96 % of the world's population: "That's hot like hell, would melt aluminum" 4 % of the world's population: "That's quite hot but would hardly cause a fire" I dream of a future where we all use the same measurement units and the lack of smoke tells me it was 600 °F.
@@no1warr1or there is no need to use different units for temperature measurements for different applications unless you are doing engineering vs scientific research in which case one would choose degC and the other would use degK. Nobody uses degF for anything other than Americans just because that is what they are used to.
It's nice to know if someone is selling you a piece of junk or a great product. I really like it when people test stuff on youtube so I don't get ripped off .
If Will has built a 600 Amp tester, the scale factor is fairly simple (Most starter batteries - for diesels or large petrol engines - need to be rested to 7-800 Amps anyhow, 600 is fairly useless.
Found your channel a year ago to help understand How things worked and How to save...plus what Not to buy compared to what's a great deal or setup. The title.. Thought you were being sued. And then you were going to prove why someone was wrong.. Which is another reason that you rock.
The Australian government included DCS batteries in tests that it ran to determine longevity etc. The DCS performed more poorly than any of the other batteries in the test. The kerfuffle between the UA-camr and the company is about DCS suing the UA-camr when he did his longevity test and came to the conclusion that the DCS battery lost a lot of capacity rapidly. Pretty much mirroring what the Australian government test showed. It is unknown whether the actual battery type in both tests was the same. I'm sure that will come out in the court case as the defence is bound to use that test in evidence. The bottom line is that DCS has kicked a hornet's nest by suing over an unfavourable review. If they had not done so, very few people would have seen the original review and it wouldn't be gaining the international publicity that it is now. They shot themselves in the foot big time.
Or even better, a follow up review praising them for their quick response, and their willingness to fix the issues, and offer a replacement battery. As I was told early in the service industry. A good review will get you 3 new word of mouth customers. A good job will be spoken about to 30 people at the next BBQ. A bad review will lose you 3 suburbs. A bad job will be spoken about to 300 people at the school drop off, 300 people at work, 300 people at the kids sporting events, 300 people in the lines in shopping centres, etc. DCS could have gained 50 new customers, but have decided to lose 50 Countries.
@@stevegraham3817that's absolutely true. Whenever I look for reviews, I absolutely don't care about the 5 star "is good" reviews. That's not a review. Most valuable reviews are 2-3 star reviews, with substantial written reasoning on WHY they didn't give 4 or 5 stars. It's much more valuable information as a consumer to read the 2-3 stars. Even skim over te 1 star reviews, if they all say the same thing, there must he something wrong substantially.
I'd love to see DCS respond to your breakdown of their battery. I'm not in a position to assess your assessment but it seemed thorough and honest. I think Stephan has a stronger case now.
Stefans review was about capacity after a period of use , that wasn't covered here but this teardown certainly gives some insights why Stefan got the results he did.
LOve your reporting and passion. I'm hanging on for the next new battery technology that I know is just round the corner that will be safer and cheaper and make it worthwhile doing my own install.
Been watching Will's channel since the beginning and WOW has he come a long way. And well deserved success, he is most peoples go to guy for valuable information on DIY solar. I along with hundred of others have put up systems of all sizes based solely on his information. If there was only a place to get such honest info on politics we would have a lot les stress LOL But I am very happy Will is keeping the ball rolling, I wish him the best.
Was just telling the wife that I fee like his YEARS of doing this...? Just leading up to starting his own battery company. Which I would absolutely buy from.
Over priced sticker slapping I like that! May the truth come out in court but unfortunately it seems who has the deeper pockets wins. When appeals are made and dragged through the high courts it will be draining. Fingers crossed for the poor dude getting sued he definitely seems like the victim in all this.
@@oggyoggy1299 NOTHING. Will is brave to do a review on a battery that the company is actively suing another reviewer over for giving an honest review. Their law suit would never fly in America, and Will is like taunting them like 'bring it on' and that takes some balls, and that's a good thing.
I will advise my customers against this battery based on their corporate lawfare behavior alone. I will not install, service, or recommend any DCS product.
I don't think that the reviewer had any problem with the battery meeting specifications. The problem was that though the battery was advertised and sold as an "under the bonnet (hood)" replacement for a lead acid battery if you did this the capacity fell away very quickly enough to make it unusable. That highlights the absolute stupidity of DCS suing the reviewer. The battery, if not used under the bonnet, as you have seen performs quite well and if a customer has deep pockets they could use them, not under the bonnet, and have a good Australian battery. I mean most lithium batteries if placed in the engine bay and treated as a normal starting battery in 45- 60 deg heat will degrade quickly too. Now no-one is going to touch them for any application.
> if you did this the capacity fell away very quickly enough to make it unusable. Which is exactly what Will stated he expects to happen. > The battery, if not used under the bonnet, as you have seen performs quite well and if a customer has deep pockets they could use them, not under the bonnet, and have a good Australian battery. Problem. Per an Australian government report, a different battery from the same company degraded far faster than everything else under ideal conditions.
The second issue from DCS that Louis Rossman pointed out, is that they changed the terms of the warranty and deceived their customers on when they did it.
thats the issue. they were, as far as i know, marketed as a lithium that was under bonnet, meaning they would or could withstand engine bay temps, but most people know agm or lithium in engine bays are a bad idea. the two batts failed after a short amount of time, stef made a review, and the company is now suffering the streisand effect. if they had of just nodded and smiled and said ta for the feed back and replaced them, none of us would have known about this. Also, the above test does show that, as you stated, if that battery was in the back of my landcruiser for what id use it for, id probably have no problems. However, now i will never touch DCS with a barge pole, ever.
Thanks for a great test and review! You nailed it: "... the Americans and Australians just getting more and more fat, more weak, more slow, and they're not fixing problems. People are not seeing what the real issue is, it's us. We are the problem."
@@jonmoceri I wish more Americans would come to this same conclusion. Then maybe our differences could be set to the side and progress could be made to make us as a nation and a people strong again.
Will, I'm giving you a 5 star review for your NEW & IMPROVED screwdriver display! I am IMPRESSED with how well you re-engineered that previously indecipherable conglomeration with an all new, clean, organized wallmount. It's engineering and design departments like yours that actually listen to your audience that the average UA-camr can appreciate and feel confident in. I for one am moving you to the top of my subscription list.
When I bought my 96 Riviera at 15 years old it still had the original battery. It was rated as an 8-year battery. One day when it went dead I open the hood and could not find the battery. Turns out the battery is under the back seat and was in like new condition, no fuzz on the terminals no leaking no swelling. Moral of the story, putting your battery in the engine compartment is severely shortening your battery's life
True but the true demise of wet batteries under the bonnet is that people completely ignore it's state, they don't check electrolyte density, they don't check it's level, they don't charge that battery between seasons. Typical Ca-Ca which is most common battery should be charged at least twice to 1.28 density measured with aerometer or refractometer. To achieve that density you need 16.2V for final charge phase. Since most people use intelligent = very dumb chargers which can't make that voltage this is the final nail in the coffin. Those intelligent chargers are excellent for AGM/Gel but are absolute shite for flooded battery. I have tested a lot of them, most won't make you more than 1.22 density. Flooded battery = use transformer rectifying unit, there. I charge my 9yrs old 52Ah Varta el cheapo market battery to density and I don't have problems with cranking in winter still. That battery should last max 2-3 years and it has 9. It has lost it's capactity a lot of it but it will still crank.
Not sure what climate you live in, but my car has the battery under the back seat, and while it also stays looking brand-new it usually dies after a few years when a cold-snap hits. I assume it could live longer if I didn't live so far up north.
@@mllarson actually it was Salt Lake City Utah. The guy I bought the car from was a car collector the Riviera was his daily driver he kept it in a climate controlled garage at home and underground parking at the Capitol, he bought it new and kept it meticulously, at 15 years old it looked like it was new. I tell you that car was luxurious they just don't make them like that anymore
Just had a battery fail in a Dodge Ram pickup. The pickup was purchase second hand and this was the second factory battery. The battery was in the engine compartment and had an insulating blanket around it. When we could examine it, the sticker said it was 7 years old. I once had an off brand battery go 6 years in my 96 mustang but normally I expect them to fail by 4 years. To bad nobody really knows how to make long lasting lead acid. Instead we just sometimes run across one with a really long life.
Interesting evidence that a High C Rate initial charge can extend longevity by 50%: Researchers from the SLAC-Stanford Battery Center (formerly Stanford Linear Accelerator Center) said that charging lithium-ion batteries for the very first time at unusually high speeds extends their lifespan by an average of 50% and up to a maximum of 70%. The study said: “Formation is a critical step in battery manufacturing. During this process, lithium inventory is consumed to form the solid electrolyte interphase (SEI), which in turn determines the battery lifetime… Surprisingly, high-formation charge current on the first cycle extends battery cycle life by an average of 50%.”
You are 100% correct. We can't complain about China in America when practically everything is manufactured in china and our companies have handed over manufacturing because of profits and the love of the dollar and not the American worker. The only thing that will change our dependence on outsourced manufacturing is further automation, humanoid robots replacing cheap labor of china and further innovation aided by AI. We need cheaper solar and cheaper battery solutions to address the high cost of energy. I live in CA and our electricity is out of control and now getting solar and a battery backup system is a financial must. I am looking at a solar system with battery backup to strategically take advantage of NEM 3.0 and replacing my super inefficient central AC with multi zone mini split level AC units.
You just completely changed my mind about robot factories. I've always thought about the American jobs they would jeopardize, I had never given the thought of them taking back America jobs that were lost to China. However over regulation, taxes and unions are the biggest issues with keeping the factories here.
11:04 As an Australian myself, I would have made a donation to get that hair genetically tested. Those taut wires going 90 degrees down the edge of that fibreboard seems criminal. IMO there should probably be some sort of spring/suspension for ALL types of vehicle lithium batteries to negate the jarring effect of speed humps/potholes/general road travel. Nice to see one of them finally pulled apart.
This whole situation is wild! 😂 I mean, suing for a review? Seems like they're trying to hide something. It's like a big red flag! 🔴 Can't wait to see how they react to this test. Keep the honesty coming! 💡
It's the Streisand effect, ie, the review had little impact, it was DCS's lawsuit that brought attention to their low quality batteries. The law is the same in the US, ie, if you discredit someone so that it reduces their income you can be sued.
The main issue was with these batteries is the UA-cam reviewer had these DCS Batteries positioned under the bonnet of his vehicle..as DCS has allowed..actually encouraged the under bonnet location because the battery was (so called) designed for this placement. It was after about 12months of using this DCS battery that the UA-camr found that the batterys' capacity had diminished quite significantly. So he tested it and the results confirmed his initial findings...he published his findings..and so the legal case started.
OMFG, under hood applications in Australia...... NO, as an avid outback adventurer I wont even have a lithium battery in my ute canopy let alone under the bonnet next to an engine. Hell the interior of our cars even melt sometimes. Ive seen temps over 70 degrees C in the rear canopy at 7am in summer. Under bonnet easily gets over a hundred degrees (we cook food in our engine bays while we drive no bs, meat pie wrapped in foil shoved into the engine bay somewhere safe, is a classic) and we regularly have to drive 100s of kilometres in 45 degree heat (ambient) people get hospitalised here being burnt by the exterior of cars every summer. Just never ever ever put lithium under bonnet in Australia, EVER!
@@mewoozy2 I have cooked a pizza under the hood of a car 20 years ago on a road trip. I wrapped it in foil and wedged it on top of the turbocharger. A few minutes after I started smelling it is when I took it off, and it was thoroughly cooked and tasted quit good! I live in south Texas and we have had temps get up to 115 degrees here, that is 46 c, in the shade. So yes, I know what you are talking about!! That kind of heat should not be messed with, especially putting a lithium battery under the hood. Nope.
@@91CavGT5 Half of the country also has the humidity of Florida, and I'm guessing some of Texas swamp lands, so the heat doesn't even dissipate, it just sits stagnant for hours or even days at a time.
I have the opposite problem, we see temps down to -40 in winter so lead acid for me only right now! The time it takes to warm a lithium battery you have arrived so the battery never actually charges. Plus after testing it seems even with heaters -20 is about the limit.
Yes Yes, whatever. There are so so many lithium batteries reliably working under bonnet (hood) in Australia, that your presumption simply isn't correct, they can be used under bonnett if manufactured to withstand the extremity of cold & hot experienced. I myself run a dedicated lithium cranking battery, yes manufactured to withstand the elements. The vehicle has been in the coldest of cold and hottest of hot climates all over Australia, the battery performs fine still, yes under the bonnet (hood). Mine is a brand that does perform in those conditions, it's certainly not and nor ever will be a DCS product purely on their conduct in sueing Stephan. There are many theories as to why one shouldn't utilise lithium but then there is the actual usage that confirms it is okay to do it. I'm not a specialist, I'm just a satisfied customer of another Australian brand who promote their products for this actual purpose of use.
I have had a Lithium start battery under my bonnet (hood) for 3 years without a problem. I travel all over Australia and the car is driven daily. The temp is monitored using a Victron Shunt and it normally sits at 45 degrees. I log the temps and its never been above 55 ever. Car is a V8 diesel. Petrol engine bay would be a lot hotter.
Ive have these batteries and also their “extreme” 80Ah battery variant. All of them have been replaced by the dealer at least twice. The BMS is useless as far as giving you a state of charge in the bluetooth app. I was told not to use only one of these batteries if using in my land cruiser as they needed two in Parallel to be able to handle the straight off the Alternator charge. Apparently only the 80AH extreme battery (red ones) are suitable for a straight off the Alternator charge. The issues I had were many, BMS - Useless, you park the vehicle in the shed for a few days and the battery goes into standby- You need to jump them quickly to wake them up again. I had an Extreme battery that after the car was left a day could still open the doors and have ignition lights, but after the crank button was pushed it would shut down. It then needed a jump to wake it up and it was fine again till the next day or two, this problem fckd up my Body control module in the car. The battery you tested here the 100Ah (blue) one cut out once in another light truck we have with a little 8000 pound winch being run for 20 seconds , no load running rope out and then in without engine running. I put it to you the load was minimal (not tested). The cases distort under the pressure of vehicle battery clamps, the stickers last a month and in my opinion they are just NOT reliable, I was fkd around 3 months at a time sending these things back and forth (if the inflated price of the battery was not enough). The last straw was when it fckd up my body control module in my newish Landcruiser and after sending it back it came back the same with them saying there was no issue. I put a CAT Lead acid battery in and now use these expensive pieces of junk in my business ute canopies to run a little fridge draw in each to get some use out of them before the capacity, which by the way diminishes greatly, makes them totally useless. No one minds helping a company with a bit of R&D, but it should not be at our expense with the price tag they have. Instead we get treated like idiots, the whole process seems like stall tactics, I am shocked to see what the inside of these is like as far as protection and quality goes. Good job with an honest technical review.
The problem that was described was the battery has a large capacity drop over a 12 month period , eg drop to 60% over that period with a battery that had not had much use as an axillary battery.
pro tip for your clamp meter is to only measure the current in one of the two wires, you can even build a proportional shunt to get arbitrary high current logging capabilities.
As am Australian , Lithium owner and enthusiast, I could easily buy DCS batteries, but i'm definitely not going to. UA-cam reviewers are the only way I can get unbiased reviews of products. I can watch multiple reviews to get a balanced viewpoint. There's no better medium . Thank you reviewers and thank you UA-cam. I just subscribed again to premium as a token of appreciation. UA-cam should step in where honest reviewers are persecuted. haha, i bet DCS were hoping no SME such as yourself would take such an expensive battery apart
The guy being sued is for capacity degradation over time. There are numerous other people with the same findings. The company won't honour the warranty claims. Unfortunately you will can't test over a couple of years and any product can perform on day1 of the printed claims. However day 1000 with possibly 1000-5000 vehicle starts in an engine bay in 100F outside temp, engine bay temps are extremely higher, then expect degradation. All lithium cells degrade above 40C/104F.
and combine heat with constant 100% state of charge and you have recipe for fastest degradation possible and probably the battery cells are 3rd grade cells because government test was done at room temperatures
Putting anything lithium near high temperature is very dumb move. Under the bonnet use classic wet lead acid battery, water vaporizes off? Add distilled water, charge get going again. Same for AGM's, not very good for under bonnet application. In my Vauxhall Astra F I have 9 yrs old Varta Silver 52Ah Ca-Ca battery. It still cranks I do charge it up to density before winter and before summer but natural degradation made it lose so much capacity that now we have like 10-15Ah of out it? I still continue my mission to wear it down to absolute flat zero so I have installed disconnector on minus lead beause my central lock and cars computer even with no parasitic draw makes this battery flat dead when car stands still for 2 weeks. But no worry I have autowit to run it when it gets flat although with disconnector this thing being flat right now is far from being true :D I just need to open bonnet when I want to go :D
There was a youtube video where a professor or scientist constructed precision charging and discharging equipment for lithium cells. Which one discharge/charge cycle he could predict how long the cell could be expected to last. He was accepting cells from several manufactures and he didn't know what the difference in chemistry was but he could accurately predict just how long the batteries would last. Unfortunately the video is no longer available or I would link to it.
The link moved and I found it again. The title is Why do Li-ion Batteries die ? and how to improve the situation? and it's on the English for Science account. It runs over an hour and even as it's 10 years old, the information is very current.
It is so great that you show the build quality on the battery, I have noticed this on many different china items that I have disassembled, Great video will subscribe.
We definitely need to boost US manufacturing of batteries and solar. I'm not a fan of slapping tariffs on imported goods, we should be able to innovate and complete fairly.
@@paulplack490 it worse if your talking about lithium batteries they have 8% of the global reserve and 72% of the refining capacity plus the issues you note
We don’t get a great selection of cheap batteries in Australia like you guys, our readily available cheap brand is the Kings battery which have passed many tests in by local UA-camrs but would be interesting to see Will put them through the test.
Will, sometime when discharged at ultra low C-rate, the easier ionic diffusion inside the cells make them to get a bit more capacity than at C/50 or C20, which is sometime what it is advertized on cheap cells... or even sometime it is a high.temperature discharge which boost the capacity compare to the one at 25celsius.. Which is why it give better capacity due to unconventional duscharge conditions....
I have appreciated every video you have done that I have seen. You are my go-to resource when i need info on these battery and solar systems... I am 69 and just starting a solar/battery system for our vintage RV combined with my shop. Thanks for all u have done and all u r yet 2 do! 😎
I briefly worked front of shop for a 4x4 electronics store which fitted DCS batteries to vehicles. Glad I didn't stick around long enough to sell a DCS, nor have to deal with any of the fallout surrounding it.
Why would you claim LCA and not CCA? Because Lithium hates COLD so will usually perform bad in cold situations. Maybe they changed it to avoid referencing to cold at all?
I just wonder how the reviewer treated the battery he reviewed I see folks saying this and that flooded battery is crap Yet I've run the same battery type off grid But properly looked after for many years without problem You are one of the few reviewers I trust for an honest and fair review Cheers
The Australian government did official testing of batteries for some subsidy program and DCS was at the bottom of the list, and it wasn't by a small percentage. These were actual lab testing by proper engineers.
Yeah Ive not used DCS But i have used flooded Century 8DN200Z, N70T, C145 260A 6V types and Supercharge allrounders over the last 14 years Found them good the 8Ds lasted 6yrs to 8yrs till i swapped to lithium Just trying a pair of kings 200ah lithiums A pair of DCMont 300ah And a pair of Rock 24v 100ah Only cheapies but from 1st jan install in my solar only shack They have worked fine runn8ng all 240v gear But time will tell i guess Cheers
For most, running a lithium starting battery might work…….. until you run it down. When the alternator goes to charge up a depleted lithium battery, that chemistry can pull a lot more amps than its lead acid counterpart and overload the alternator. Unless a lithium battery has charge limitation technology or the charging system has safeguards, stick to conventional starting batteries
I actually ran my old celica for years on a supercapacitor boost system and a $40 walmart battery. Originally the plan was to keep a LiFePO4 under the passenger seat so if needed I could charge the supercaps via the cigarette lighter but there's some regulation that says your hazard lights need to be able to remain on for atleast 20 minutes {possibly 30 I forget}. Regardless I think cranking amps are best from supercapacitors and LiFePO4 batteries should just be backup power. I really enjoy your videos and I love your load tester !!!
@@siguie2355 super capacitors don’t have the same downfalls as lithium batteries. I’ve known a couple of people who use them for primary starting purposes. As long as your vehicle is in good shape and starts easily then it’s no big deal. Keeping a small booster pack is a must though.
@@91CavGT5 My celica was AWESOME and probably never needed the battery. Generally there's enough charge for 2 to maybe 3 starts but then it recharges in only a few seconds once the engine is going. I think most mechanics know of them now but the first few times they thought it was a bomb then they all had to uncouple the battery to see if it really could start the car so good entertainment value too.
Your testing was perfect. Excellent job. Looks like they use degraded higher capacity batteries that can offer the rating when you buy the product new . Since the cells are already degraded, that is why they die really fast compared to new correct capacity batteries. This trick allows them to make more profit because degraded (used) higher capacity batteries are much cheaper than new lower capacity batteries. Even though they offer same capacity when the product is new. The ones with degraded (used) batteries won't last as long compared to ones with new cells.
The main concern from Stefan that he showed in his vids on his All Offroad Adventure channel was how bad the deg was and had put it down to under bonnet heat and 4WD application which the company specifically advertises it is suited for. Thanks Will, was hoping you'd pick this one up for a tear down!
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you should still comment on it in the video. you previous community posts shouldve be doubled on in this video. hope the guy thats being sued comes out ahead.
pretty awesome Testing Mr Will
Great review as always
💯 percent agree with your final comments 👍
@ 7:27 look at that wire jitter with the load , neat!
@@KuramaKitsune1I do welding fabrication and our welding leads if we're pumping a lot of amperage would you do that they'll actually twist until you break the arc after you break the arc they relax and go back down
A youtuber is getting sued for reviewing this, so let's review it. I love it.
Lack of free speech in Australia.
To be fair, he is doing it wrong, because it's from Australia, the battery should be upside down.
@@antonyjh1234 🙃😂
Less of a review, more of an investigation and dissection.
Testing;
Passed
Review;
It's a great battery.
Met or exceeded the manufacturer's specifications.
Investigation and Dissection;
Inadequate Design and Engineering. Poor Quality Control. Poor build quality.
Opinion;
The battery operates fine but I wouldn't trust it at or above the level of lead acid.
@@antonyjh1234Correct, not all electrons will fall out!😊
Just the fact that DCS decided to sue someone for a review means I will never in my life ever use a DCS product.
DCS can Eat My Shorts :D
I doubt DCS will survive this, so I don't even think you'll even get the chance.
My thoughts exactly. There were many ways DCS could have dealt with the issue, and they picked the worst one.
Same!!!
Same. It suggests they have something to hide.
The funniest thing is the Australian government tested these things, there's a report on an Aussie government website, and the government decided they were garbage too.
I think it's that DCS will be watching these videos and the backlash for suing somebody, for telling the truth, has brought their business down.
They will probably already have changed their trading name and still be putting out the same but at least this mole got whacked.
Yep they already got the new name on stickers😅
Please share a link to the Australian government test of this battery if available
@@scoobyblu5815Please share a link to the new name sticker if possible
The Au govt report is for a DCS battery but not a vehicle battery. It is a home storage battery. However the results are shocking. The DCS battery is so far off all the others tested that the testers contacted DCS to ask what was happening. DCS simply asked for the battery back so they they could check it themselves. Louis Rossmann covered it all in his follow up vid.
This gets better and better. Nice review sir!
Thank you!!!
It's Thanks to you Mr right to repair man.
Rossmann, I chalange you for a karate 🥋 fight!
I'm Australian and this DCS company literally lives 20kms from me!! What they've done is absolutely embarrass themselves with their arrogance, and completely exposed themselves with their poor product. There are many reputable Aussie businesses that provide great products and customer service.... DCS provides the complete opposite!
Are they actually Australian owned and operated? Nice cars in the parking lot and people wearing suits? Or does it just look like a 'distribution centre' for somewhere whose head office is actually offshore?
"Australia made"???
@@phattjohnson
@@phattjohnson DCS is a tiny business. Louis Rossmann painted it out as some multi-million dollar corporation and it's not. They have less that 20 employees and barely anyone in Australia has heard of them.
Dcs tells me nothing about your country, bad companies can be anywhere
Which legislation are you talking about?
This is a private company suing an individual for defamation and has nothing to do with the government.
I think DCS are foolish and will lose but the government has no skin in the game for these civil matters.
Louis Rossmann has really opened up a Hornet's nest related to this Battery, and wow once opened up it's just a cheap ass battery with a high price tag, well done exposing this
Louis rocks !!! 🤘🤘🤘🤘
That guy is an absolute clown.
@@Failure_Is_An_Option. Whom ? This Reviewer here or Louis Rossmann or Stefan Fischer or DCS management ?
Be more specific , please .
@johncunningham4820 anyone can be a clown if they set their mind too it!
Interesting to say the least!
Louis Rossman discusses the testing the Aussie government did, where they found the DCS batteries were crap compared to all their competitors. The same result the reviewer found. This result is published in official Aus Gov documents on an official Aus Gov website.
Not even compared to the competitors, just compared to a set of very basic performance criteria. And when you deal with some of the crap that did get through, that says all it needs to say without saying things out loud. lol
When you say "an official Aus Gov website." are you implying there is also an un-official Aus Gov website and the same for your "official Aus Gov documents"
@@sheerluckholmes5468 More just reinforcing that it wasn't just an opinion piece by an official politician, or some bozo who works for an official government department, but is not held to the same level of scrutiny.
@@stevegraham3817 Hmmmm, here we go again... an "official politician" as opposed to?? and aren't all government departments 'official'? Stop with the word 'official' already is what I'm trying to convey to you.
@@sheerluckholmes5468 To put it so a 5 year old understands - Gov paid INDEPENDENT research company, did very detailed and technical stuff over a long time with lots of batteries and companies comparing them on a level playing field. ie. they just didnt collect the companies tech sheet and list the specifications. FFS
I'm stoked that so many channels are getting on board and supporting him🙏
Louis Rossmann highlighting Aussie Govt. testing and reporting DCS batteries are crap was pure gold --- streisand effect
but its a llie when the review he talks about is of a different product. Unless a review of a 1930s Volkswagon Beetle is a valid critique of a 2024 Rolls Royce - both of which are made by the same company.
Legislators made this possible~seeking cheapist non union labour and maximising profits~ china.
@@occamraiser that's a terrible comparison
The company seems to want the court system to also confirm their crapiness
But they're NOT crap, that is just the impression given by those with that agenda. Stretching the truth is called marketing, that doesn't mean the batteries don't do what they should, as this video proves.
You realise the US has tried to prosecute Australian journalists for being honest.
Yes, that's happened too. And we tried to extradite Gary McKinnon from the UK, on trumped up charges.
Espionage and sabotage now qualify as "being honest". Try doing the same in Russia, the favored new home of his buddy Snowden.
Here in India the populace wouldn't be so kind to a traitor/spy/saboteur either.
America, the king of don't do as we do, do as we say.
I assume you're referring to Julian Assange (as I don;t know of any others that were prosecuted by the US), who is not a journalists in any way.
A journalist that receive classified document, that were most likely illegally obtained, will go over them, check their validity, look for problematic/illegal information, corroborate them and publish only what's necessary to prove the findings without endangering lives of others. He would not just dump everything unchecked and unredacted. He would also not be involved in the act of illegally obtaining them. Assange just dropped everything without any actual journalistic action and his past shows that he has the ability, knowledge and capacity to be part of the actual act of obtaining those documents (something that needs to pr proven, of course).
parts of those documents were definitely worthy of publications but they should have been published responsibly by real journalists.
Assange showed his wrongful and reprehensible methods with other "revelations" by dumping the "Hillary Clinton Email Archive" that he clearly revived from dubious sources that were filled with fake emails.
That does not make what the US did acceptable. They went after Julian Assange out of spite, which is never a good idea, which created justified doubt on any possibility of a fair trail by their justice system. Condemnation for his reckless actions while admitting and reacting to some of the horrible/illegal things specified in those document was the best and most effective way to go.
@@AL5520well said
You have to put, "Take a screenshot so I don't get sued" on a Tshirt. 😂😂
Yep.. love that sentence... ❤
Beat me to it. Freakin' hilarious!!!
DCS doesn't care about your stinking screen shot, they'll sue anyway. They are probably related to Sky News.
Yep, that screams Merch all day long. 😂
If an idiot wants to attempt to sue, they can. They'll just be thrown out of court. In Australia the burden of proof is on the litigant and truth is a totally valid defence. Not only is truth a defence but even if the statement were not true, then it also has to be proven to have been deliberately intended to harm. Honest opinion is NOT defamation in Australia.
Do they allow the defendant to recoup legal fees and counter sue?
@@p.b.9428 Depends on the case.
It's allowed and certainly does happen but it would be judged case by case.
It literally goes case by case, different to USA in regards to case law.
@@brissiAU US is interesting in that the American Rule means big companies can bankrupt individuals with frivolous lawsuits. However, some states have anti SLAPP laws, which allow for early termination of defamation claims and recouping costs.
Sadly the process is used to financially destroy the defendant long before a court hears the facts. It's a simple but effective bully tactic used to crush the individual or small timers.
How dare you be analytical, honest, and fair minded 😂
🤨……😜
I started researching lithium based batteries in 2002. I was a marine tech at a busy boatyard in a major recreational boating area sigh man hundreds of boats including power boats and sailboats. The town, actually an island in the Pacific Northwest, which is the gateway to one of the premier cruising areas in the USA. It has many marinas, most for recreational boats from small to medium-large displacement. I was ABYC certified as a marine electrician. Our boat was a 42’ ketch-rigged sailboat which we took to Mexico in 2004. We departed from Mexico in 2006 and sailed across the Pacific to New Zealand, 2004-2006.
Before leaving I replaced the old AGM deep cycle batteries (400 ah) with a spiral wound AGM start battery. We did not have any significant electrical system problems over the 4 years out. Sold the boat in NZ. Bought a new/used 42’ sailboat after returning. I replaced the 4 8-D AGM house batteries with 16 3.2v LiFePO4 cells (400 ah) after extensive research in the tech. These did not have a built-in BMS. At the time, only a very few lithium “batteries’ had an integral BMS. The ones that did were a bunch of crap. This was just as Victron was starting to introduce builtin BMS. I selected and installed a BMS from Slovenia. I had to manually equalize each cell before hooking them up. I had to replace the delimit the 100A engine alternator to prevent it from self-destructing from the high current draw of the battery. I had a 200A Yanmar driven alternator but I had to seriously upgrade the cables to handle the very large DC charge current. Separate alternator controllers were added to manage the charge profiles for both alternators, with high voltage and low voltage soft disconnect solenoid contactors to prevent unintended low or high voltage.
I mention all this to show that large lithium battery system installations are not for amateurs and that the capabilities of lithium battery systems are variable and subject to wide quality and design problems. Very competent vendors, such as Victron and a very few others, still require a competent marine electrician, thorough manuals and training, and appropriate builtin safeguards. No one likes a fire on a boat. Done right they offer huge advantages over the old tech still in wide use. Much snake oil and mirrors are out there though.
tldr please and don't waffle.
OMG that commentary at the end was so spot on. We are fat and lazy and it pisses me off as well. Thanks Will
But you guys are now diverse, equitable, and inclusive, and that beats an actual army bent on conquest powered by a massive industrial base
@@rexsceleratorum1632 Wha?
@@rexsceleratorum1632 🤣🤣🤣🤣 We'll just send Kamala. That would make any army turn and run when she starts laughing.
I'm not fat or lazy. Projecting much?
Some of us might be fat and lazy, but I found his tirade there unsound. China can make cheap batteries (and everything else) because their labor cost is a fraction compared to American labor--as everyone knows. The unlazy and unfat American can be several times more productive than a Chinese laborer but will still cost more hourly (wages, but insurance, taxes, & other employee benefits are big expenses that people forget Chinese companies probably have a much lower cost of). That is why, with the current political climate, US companies are moving factories out of China and into other even cheaper labor countries like Vietnam and India. Also, Will might be putting it out there mockingly in frustration, but it is incorrect to call the Chinese communist. The divide between the haves and have nots is greater than in the States. His argument there had no connecting dots.
He seems fantastic with the electrical stuff, of course. Just discovered him and am learning a bit.
As An Australian i am ashamed of this company and our skindmark of a government.
Did you see Louis Rossman talking about the government did the testing of DCS batteries and found the same thing? They were sh!t.
💯
As an American, I share you disgust for government.
What has Govt got to do with it??
Try not to get sucked into the mindset of so many, especially in a particular country, that it's all the fault of the Govt. eh?
It's embarrassing.
We're certainly more than happy that we live in Australia and not most other places tbh.
I love your honest review. I hope DCS pay attention to this review. There is no harm in criticism, in fact it's warranted so changes can be made to make a better product. They should be thankful for the insight, so they can offer the consumer a product worth the money paid.
it's constructive criticism - that should always be appreciated. Now make it better. YOU KNOW ANY ENGINEER OR TECH IN AU COULD HAVE DONE THAT FOR YOU WHY PUT THEM OUT WITH CRAP QC....THAT'S ON THE FACTORY AND THUS, ON YOU.
Some companies want to make a better product so they likely negative feedback so they can make an even better product in the future. Some companies (like DCS obviously) are just looking to collect maximum dollar for the cheapest garbage product possible. Negative reviews hurt that.
First they will need to change the name of the company because the lawsuit probably earned more brand recognition than all of their advertising put together.
Dude, I have absolutely loved your journey to where you are now. I don't know when I stopped being entertained by you, and started being educated by you, but you are now my only TRUSTED source for all things solar!
This is a real engineering channel now, its been great to watch.
@@SeanHoulihane He promotes NON UL or Cul products which are illegal to install in said countries.
Real "engineering" LOLOLOLOL
If the review was anything like yours the youtuber has no problem...youre review is concise, fair and honest.
Your timestamps miss the privacy breach at 0:01 !!!
Great work, thanks from Australia. DCS will regret their behavior.
Hope so the dodgy dogs!
Great to see this is gaining traction around the world! Bad news travels fast! His complaints were more about longevity of the product though and not honouring warranty. Check their reviews, they're pretty shocking.
In Australia, warranties are merely an extra level of protection. They can't override consumer protection law. One of the principles used by courts in Australia in a consumer protection case is: did the product last as long as you'd expect it to last, considering the cost of the product, any claims made by the distributor about the product and how long other, similar products last? If it fails that benchmark by much, then the courts are more inclined to say that consumer protection law applies and the customer is entitled to appropriate compensation regardless of what any warranty says.
I cannot believe how this situation has gone world wide. Just loving the way Stefan is being backed up by so many UA-camrs. I so look forward to seeing DCS (Australia) go down the poo hole. Regardless of the outcome, no one in Australia will buy their product - even if it is a good product. Why? Because the bully picked on the little guy.
@@davidkelly3779 Except all the big Australian 4x4 youtubers have remained very silent, pretty clear that these 'independent' reviewers are on the take from companies.
@@giddyup3451 It is pretty tough to stick your head up, until a few others have. It starts with one then another and another. Those with the most to lose need to be careful. Those in another country are not so vulnerable.
@@davidkelly3779 yep, those with the most to lose are the ones taking the most money from companies for fake positive reviews. It's becoming pretty obvious who they are.
Even if the case gets to court, it will probably fail. Under Australian law, the truth is a defense in any defamation or libel case. I'm not sure how costs will go, but I expect that the courts will take a dim view of a company bringing a lawsuit which obviously had no merit.
Your 'regardless of the result' means that even if the review was dishonest, and paid for by their competitors you want DCS to fail and all its workers to lose their jobs because they defended themselves. I don't say that that is the case, I'm saying that 'regardless of the outcome' means you don't care about right / wrong just malice against DCS without knowing the cause.
Just watched Louis Rossmann's video on DCS possibly complaining to UA-cam about this video, and trying to get this taken down? Wow that is unbelievalbe. Your review was very fair, and you siimply showed the actual crappy build quality of the product. If UA-cam makes you take down this video I promise I will cancel my UA-cam premium subscription.
Yep - watched that as well. DCS seems like a slimeball company that no one should be doing business with.
Crappy build quality 🙄
"The resistors are 600 degrees"
96 % of the world's population: "That's hot like hell, would melt aluminum"
4 % of the world's population: "That's quite hot but would hardly cause a fire"
I dream of a future where we all use the same measurement units and the lack of smoke tells me it was 600 °F.
Yeah, what the °F is wrong with them?
Hey! Issa 'Merica! Do-ah as we say-ah, notah as we do-ah.
Might be a difficult concept for some to grasp but we use different units of measurement for different applications 😃
@@no1warr1or there is no need to use different units for temperature measurements for different applications unless you are doing engineering vs scientific research in which case one would choose degC and the other would use degK. Nobody uses degF for anything other than Americans just because that is what they are used to.
@@roncordell sure if youre simple minded 🤷♂️ Like suggesting we shouldn't use different units of measurement for length/distance
It's nice to know if someone is selling you a piece of junk or a great product. I really like it when people test stuff on youtube so I don't get ripped off .
That laugh after you said "I think I have a method of doing 1000 amps!" Just killed me haha lmaooo
That cracked me up!
That got me too, and I was expecting that. LOL😂😂
If Will has built a 600 Amp tester, the scale factor is fairly simple (Most starter batteries - for diesels or large petrol engines - need to be rested to 7-800 Amps anyhow, 600 is fairly useless.
He's probably a terror on the chess board too.
The 500-degree resistors and his solution is to get a leaf blower not a fire extinguisher... 😂
Appreciate your honest reviews Will!
Found your channel a year ago to help understand How things worked and How to save...plus what Not to buy compared to what's a great deal or setup.
The title..
Thought you were being sued. And then you were going to prove why someone was wrong.. Which is another reason that you rock.
You are a wonderful combination of brains, passion, and entrepreneur. Please don't ever sell out or sell your soul.
“We are the problem”. WP. The heart of the matter whatever the matter is. So simple. Thanks Will
The Australian government included DCS batteries in tests that it ran to determine longevity etc.
The DCS performed more poorly than any of the other batteries in the test.
The kerfuffle between the UA-camr and the company is about DCS suing the UA-camr when he did his longevity test and came to the conclusion that the DCS battery lost a lot of capacity rapidly.
Pretty much mirroring what the Australian government test showed.
It is unknown whether the actual battery type in both tests was the same.
I'm sure that will come out in the court case as the defence is bound to use that test in evidence.
The bottom line is that DCS has kicked a hornet's nest by suing over an unfavourable review.
If they had not done so, very few people would have seen the original review and it wouldn't be gaining the international publicity that it is now.
They shot themselves in the foot big time.
Or even better, a follow up review praising them for their quick response, and their willingness to fix the issues, and offer a replacement battery.
As I was told early in the service industry.
A good review will get you 3 new word of mouth customers. A good job will be spoken about to 30 people at the next BBQ.
A bad review will lose you 3 suburbs. A bad job will be spoken about to 300 people at the school drop off, 300 people at work, 300 people at the kids sporting events, 300 people in the lines in shopping centres, etc.
DCS could have gained 50 new customers, but have decided to lose 50 Countries.
@@stevegraham3817that's absolutely true.
Whenever I look for reviews, I absolutely don't care about the 5 star "is good" reviews. That's not a review.
Most valuable reviews are 2-3 star reviews, with substantial written reasoning on WHY they didn't give 4 or 5 stars. It's much more valuable information as a consumer to read the 2-3 stars.
Even skim over te 1 star reviews, if they all say the same thing, there must he something wrong substantially.
Can't see this making it to court
Streisand effect
Now you have to wonder if they counted the 60amp loss of battery power in shipping the battery to the testers.
I'd love to see DCS respond to your breakdown of their battery. I'm not in a position to assess your assessment but it seemed thorough and honest. I think Stephan has a stronger case now.
Stefans review was about capacity after a period of use , that wasn't covered here but this teardown certainly gives some insights why Stefan got the results he did.
LOve your reporting and passion. I'm hanging on for the next new battery technology that I know is just round the corner that will be safer and cheaper and make it worthwhile doing my own install.
My favorite part was the evil villain laugh when Will brought out the 1000 amp load
Objective criticism is the most fundamental aspect of progress ( in my opinion)
Been watching Will's channel since the beginning and WOW has he come a long way. And well deserved success, he is most peoples go to guy for valuable information on DIY solar. I along with hundred of others have put up systems of all sizes based solely on his information. If there was only a place to get such honest info on politics we would have a lot les stress LOL
But I am very happy Will is keeping the ball rolling, I wish him the best.
Was just telling the wife that I fee like his YEARS of doing this...? Just leading up to starting his own battery company. Which I would absolutely buy from.
I love that you are ballsy enough to review this battery in the middle of this controversy! I wouldn't use this battery if they paid me.
What’s the problem with what he’s doing?
Over priced sticker slapping I like that!
May the truth come out in court but unfortunately it seems who has the deeper pockets wins. When appeals are made and dragged through the high courts it will be draining. Fingers crossed for the poor dude getting sued he definitely seems like the victim in all this.
Hmm..I've had this battery in my camper for 6 years. It's still going well. Not under the hood, though.
@@JohnSmith-oh9iv The charge / dischage cycles seem to be the problem with them.
Do a capacity test.
@@oggyoggy1299 NOTHING. Will is brave to do a review on a battery that the company is actively suing another reviewer over for giving an honest review. Their law suit would never fly in America, and Will is like taunting them like 'bring it on' and that takes some balls, and that's a good thing.
I will advise my customers against this battery based on their corporate lawfare behavior alone. I will not install, service, or recommend any DCS product.
My solar system has been going for 5 years now. Built thanks to this channel.
I don't think that the reviewer had any problem with the battery meeting specifications. The problem was that though the battery was advertised and sold as an "under the bonnet (hood)" replacement for a lead acid battery if you did this the capacity fell away very quickly enough to make it unusable.
That highlights the absolute stupidity of DCS suing the reviewer. The battery, if not used under the bonnet, as you have seen performs quite well and if a customer has deep pockets they could use them, not under the bonnet, and have a good Australian battery. I mean most lithium batteries if placed in the engine bay and treated as a normal starting battery in 45- 60 deg heat will degrade quickly too.
Now no-one is going to touch them for any application.
> if you did this the capacity fell away very quickly enough to make it unusable.
Which is exactly what Will stated he expects to happen.
> The battery, if not used under the bonnet, as you have seen performs quite well and if a customer has deep pockets they could use them, not under the bonnet, and have a good Australian battery.
Problem. Per an Australian government report, a different battery from the same company degraded far faster than everything else under ideal conditions.
Go will. Excellent review, us fat Americans need to exercise our brains at the library !
The second issue from DCS that Louis Rossman pointed out, is that they changed the terms of the warranty and deceived their customers on when they did it.
thats the issue. they were, as far as i know, marketed as a lithium that was under bonnet, meaning they would or could withstand engine bay temps, but most people know agm or lithium in engine bays are a bad idea. the two batts failed after a short amount of time, stef made a review, and the company is now suffering the streisand effect. if they had of just nodded and smiled and said ta for the feed back and replaced them, none of us would have known about this. Also, the above test does show that, as you stated, if that battery was in the back of my landcruiser for what id use it for, id probably have no problems. However, now i will never touch DCS with a barge pole, ever.
@@jhfl1881 that they did!!
Thanks for a great test and review!
You nailed it:
"... the Americans and Australians just getting more and more fat, more weak, more slow, and they're not fixing problems. People are not seeing what the real issue is, it's us. We are the problem."
@@jonmoceri I wish more Americans would come to this same conclusion. Then maybe our differences could be set to the side and progress could be made to make us as a nation and a people strong again.
Will, I'm giving you a 5 star review for your NEW & IMPROVED screwdriver display! I am IMPRESSED with how well you re-engineered that previously indecipherable conglomeration with an all new, clean, organized wallmount. It's engineering and design departments like yours that actually listen to your audience that the average UA-camr can appreciate and feel confident in. I for one am moving you to the top of my subscription list.
Thanks!!!! So much better 😂😁👍🏽
When I bought my 96 Riviera at 15 years old it still had the original battery. It was rated as an 8-year battery. One day when it went dead I open the hood and could not find the battery. Turns out the battery is under the back seat and was in like new condition, no fuzz on the terminals no leaking no swelling. Moral of the story, putting your battery in the engine compartment is severely shortening your battery's life
True but the true demise of wet batteries under the bonnet is that people completely ignore it's state, they don't check electrolyte density, they don't check it's level, they don't charge that battery between seasons. Typical Ca-Ca which is most common battery should be charged at least twice to 1.28 density measured with aerometer or refractometer. To achieve that density you need 16.2V for final charge phase. Since most people use intelligent = very dumb chargers which can't make that voltage this is the final nail in the coffin. Those intelligent chargers are excellent for AGM/Gel but are absolute shite for flooded battery. I have tested a lot of them, most won't make you more than 1.22 density. Flooded battery = use transformer rectifying unit, there. I charge my 9yrs old 52Ah Varta el cheapo market battery to density and I don't have problems with cranking in winter still. That battery should last max 2-3 years and it has 9. It has lost it's capactity a lot of it but it will still crank.
Not sure what climate you live in, but my car has the battery under the back seat, and while it also stays looking brand-new it usually dies after a few years when a cold-snap hits. I assume it could live longer if I didn't live so far up north.
@@mllarson actually it was Salt Lake City Utah. The guy I bought the car from was a car collector the Riviera was his daily driver he kept it in a climate controlled garage at home and underground parking at the Capitol, he bought it new and kept it meticulously, at 15 years old it looked like it was new.
I tell you that car was luxurious they just don't make them like that anymore
Just had a battery fail in a Dodge Ram pickup. The pickup was purchase second hand and this was the second factory battery. The battery was in the engine compartment and had an insulating blanket around it. When we could examine it, the sticker said it was 7 years old. I once had an off brand battery go 6 years in my 96 mustang but normally I expect them to fail by 4 years. To bad nobody really knows how to make long lasting lead acid. Instead we just sometimes run across one with a really long life.
Interesting evidence that a High C Rate initial charge can extend longevity by 50%:
Researchers from the SLAC-Stanford Battery Center (formerly Stanford Linear Accelerator Center) said that charging lithium-ion batteries for the very first time at unusually high speeds extends their lifespan by an average of 50% and up to a maximum of 70%.
The study said: “Formation is a critical step in battery manufacturing. During this process, lithium inventory is consumed to form the solid electrolyte interphase (SEI), which in turn determines the battery lifetime… Surprisingly, high-formation charge current on the first cycle extends battery cycle life by an average of 50%.”
You are 100% correct. We can't complain about China in America when practically everything is manufactured in china and our companies have handed over manufacturing because of profits and the love of the dollar and not the American worker. The only thing that will change our dependence on outsourced manufacturing is further automation, humanoid robots replacing cheap labor of china and further innovation aided by AI. We need cheaper solar and cheaper battery solutions to address the high cost of energy. I live in CA and our electricity is out of control and now getting solar and a battery backup system is a financial must. I am looking at a solar system with battery backup to strategically take advantage of NEM 3.0 and replacing my super inefficient central AC with multi zone mini split level AC units.
just add lots of $$$$$$
Kissinger > Move your plants to China if you want to stay profitable /.
Lots of $$$$ only large corporations have... Corporations who will further move manufacturing out of country even with A.I.
You just completely changed my mind about robot factories. I've always thought about the American jobs they would jeopardize, I had never given the thought of them taking back America jobs that were lost to China. However over regulation, taxes and unions are the biggest issues with keeping the factories here.
Fat, lazy, and dumb is what we've become.
11:04 As an Australian myself, I would have made a donation to get that hair genetically tested. Those taut wires going 90 degrees down the edge of that fibreboard seems criminal. IMO there should probably be some sort of spring/suspension for ALL types of vehicle lithium batteries to negate the jarring effect of speed humps/potholes/general road travel. Nice to see one of them finally pulled apart.
That's what I like. Honest reviews
With tear downs
This whole situation is wild! 😂 I mean, suing for a review? Seems like they're trying to hide something. It's like a big red flag! 🔴 Can't wait to see how they react to this test. Keep the honesty coming! 💡
It's the Streisand effect, ie, the review had little impact, it was DCS's lawsuit that brought attention to their low quality batteries.
The law is the same in the US, ie, if you discredit someone so that it reduces their income you can be sued.
She sent you DNA to make your own copy of her
The main issue was with these batteries is the UA-cam reviewer had these DCS Batteries positioned under the bonnet of his vehicle..as DCS has allowed..actually encouraged the under bonnet location because the battery was (so called) designed for this placement. It was after about 12months of using this DCS battery that the UA-camr found that the batterys' capacity had diminished quite significantly. So he tested it and the results confirmed his initial findings...he published his findings..and so the legal case started.
There is a chance that DCS did not know, until now, that degraded cells are inside.
where is this test?
@@Gregorius421 they probably made him pull the video whilst the court proceedings were ongoing, basically trying to silence the guy.
@@Z3n1tHL0rD I'm getting a sense of "he who cannot be named". Who are everybody talking about?
@@Gregorius421 It's Stephan Fischer from the "AllOffroad 4x4 Adventures TV" UA-cam channel.
OMFG, under hood applications in Australia...... NO, as an avid outback adventurer I wont even have a lithium battery in my ute canopy let alone under the bonnet next to an engine. Hell the interior of our cars even melt sometimes. Ive seen temps over 70 degrees C in the rear canopy at 7am in summer. Under bonnet easily gets over a hundred degrees (we cook food in our engine bays while we drive no bs, meat pie wrapped in foil shoved into the engine bay somewhere safe, is a classic) and we regularly have to drive 100s of kilometres in 45 degree heat (ambient) people get hospitalised here being burnt by the exterior of cars every summer. Just never ever ever put lithium under bonnet in Australia, EVER!
@@mewoozy2 I have cooked a pizza under the hood of a car 20 years ago on a road trip. I wrapped it in foil and wedged it on top of the turbocharger. A few minutes after I started smelling it is when I took it off, and it was thoroughly cooked and tasted quit good!
I live in south Texas and we have had temps get up to 115 degrees here, that is 46 c, in the shade. So yes, I know what you are talking about!! That kind of heat should not be messed with, especially putting a lithium battery under the hood. Nope.
@@91CavGT5 Half of the country also has the humidity of Florida, and I'm guessing some of Texas swamp lands, so the heat doesn't even dissipate, it just sits stagnant for hours or even days at a time.
I have the opposite problem, we see temps down to -40 in winter so lead acid for me only right now! The time it takes to warm a lithium battery you have arrived so the battery never actually charges. Plus after testing it seems even with heaters -20 is about the limit.
Yes Yes, whatever.
There are so so many lithium batteries reliably working under bonnet (hood) in Australia, that your presumption simply isn't correct, they can be used under bonnett if manufactured to withstand the extremity of cold & hot experienced.
I myself run a dedicated lithium cranking battery, yes manufactured to withstand the elements. The vehicle has been in the coldest of cold and hottest of hot climates all over Australia, the battery performs fine still, yes under the bonnet (hood).
Mine is a brand that does perform in those conditions, it's certainly not and nor ever will be a DCS product purely on their conduct in sueing Stephan.
There are many theories as to why one shouldn't utilise lithium but then there is the actual usage that confirms it is okay to do it.
I'm not a specialist, I'm just a satisfied customer of another Australian brand who promote their products for this actual purpose of use.
I have had a Lithium start battery under my bonnet (hood) for 3 years without a problem. I travel all over Australia and the car is driven daily. The temp is monitored using a Victron Shunt and it normally sits at 45 degrees. I log the temps and its never been above 55 ever. Car is a V8 diesel. Petrol engine bay would be a lot hotter.
Ive have these batteries and also their “extreme” 80Ah battery variant. All of them have been replaced by the dealer at least twice. The BMS is useless as far as giving you a state of charge in the bluetooth app. I was told not to use only one of these batteries if using in my land cruiser as they needed two in Parallel to be able to handle the straight off the Alternator charge. Apparently only the 80AH extreme battery (red ones) are suitable for a straight off the Alternator charge.
The issues I had were many, BMS - Useless, you park the vehicle in the shed for a few days and the battery goes into standby- You need to jump them quickly to wake them up again. I had an Extreme battery that after the car was left a day could still open the doors and have ignition lights, but after the crank button was pushed it would shut down. It then needed a jump to wake it up and it was fine again till the next day or two, this problem fckd up my Body control module in the car.
The battery you tested here the 100Ah (blue) one cut out once in another light truck we have with a little 8000 pound winch being run for 20 seconds , no load running rope out and then in without engine running. I put it to you the load was minimal (not tested).
The cases distort under the pressure of vehicle battery clamps, the stickers last a month and in my opinion they are just NOT reliable, I was fkd around 3 months at a time sending these things back and forth (if the inflated price of the battery was not enough). The last straw was when it fckd up my body control module in my newish Landcruiser and after sending it back it came back the same with them saying there was no issue. I put a CAT Lead acid battery in and now use these expensive pieces of junk in my business ute canopies to run a little fridge draw in each to get some use out of them before the capacity, which by the way diminishes greatly, makes them totally useless.
No one minds helping a company with a bit of R&D, but it should not be at our expense with the price tag they have. Instead we get treated like idiots, the whole process seems like stall tactics, I am shocked to see what the inside of these is like as far as protection and quality goes. Good job with an honest technical review.
I use a NOCO in my motorcycle. Works great and the charger for it is very nice.
This is about to get interesting.
Will! Keep it up! Quality testing that is shown at 100%. Gotta love it! You are my solar/battery hero!
YOU are absolutely the best Will! Our hero for sure. Thank you!
Will's tests and reviews are on another level.
Heard about the lawsuit… never considered a DCS product again… not even spent one sec thinking about this company
The problem that was described was the battery has a large capacity drop over a 12 month period , eg drop to 60% over that period with a battery that had not had much use as an axillary battery.
the hair "this is probably some chinese girl in a factory" ahahahahahhahahahaha
He's right though!
Looks like dcs is starting to understand "The Streisand Effect" lol great review Will as always. Thanks!
I'm boycotting them
Thanks for the review. It truly is a service you are providing all of us with your extensive tests. Thanks again!
pro tip for your clamp meter is to only measure the current in one of the two wires, you can even build a proportional shunt to get arbitrary high current logging capabilities.
$1000 for worse build quality than a $250 unit.
The laws regarding false or misleading advertising in Australia are some of the strictest in the world. Companies breaking these laws don't last long.
since 5 years i'm using a SHIDO 7AH LiFe4Po to start my 2.5 liter 5-banger from Volvo. Delivers 420A on a stable way.
Greetings from Switzerland ;)
As am Australian , Lithium owner and enthusiast, I could easily buy DCS batteries, but i'm definitely not going to. UA-cam reviewers are the only way I can get unbiased reviews of products. I can watch multiple reviews to get a balanced viewpoint. There's no better medium . Thank you reviewers and thank you UA-cam. I just subscribed again to premium as a token of appreciation. UA-cam should step in where honest reviewers are persecuted. haha, i bet DCS were hoping no SME such as yourself would take such an expensive battery apart
You are my favorite UA-camr as far as philosophy goes. I can’t get enough of your tough love attitude.
Whingy Will?
Who promotes, because of money, non UL or cUL products that can start fires?????
Oooooookay!
The guy being sued is for capacity degradation over time. There are numerous other people with the same findings. The company won't honour the warranty claims.
Unfortunately you will can't test over a couple of years and any product can perform on day1 of the printed claims.
However day 1000 with possibly 1000-5000 vehicle starts in an engine bay in 100F outside temp, engine bay temps are extremely higher, then expect degradation. All lithium cells degrade above 40C/104F.
and combine heat with constant 100% state of charge and you have recipe for fastest degradation possible and probably the battery cells are 3rd grade cells because government test was done at room temperatures
Putting anything lithium near high temperature is very dumb move. Under the bonnet use classic wet lead acid battery, water vaporizes off? Add distilled water, charge get going again. Same for AGM's, not very good for under bonnet application. In my Vauxhall Astra F I have 9 yrs old Varta Silver 52Ah Ca-Ca battery. It still cranks I do charge it up to density before winter and before summer but natural degradation made it lose so much capacity that now we have like 10-15Ah of out it? I still continue my mission to wear it down to absolute flat zero so I have installed disconnector on minus lead beause my central lock and cars computer even with no parasitic draw makes this battery flat dead when car stands still for 2 weeks. But no worry I have autowit to run it when it gets flat although with disconnector this thing being flat right now is far from being true :D I just need to open bonnet when I want to go :D
There was a youtube video where a professor or scientist constructed precision charging and discharging equipment for lithium cells. Which one discharge/charge cycle he could predict how long the cell could be expected to last. He was accepting cells from several manufactures and he didn't know what the difference in chemistry was but he could accurately predict just how long the batteries would last. Unfortunately the video is no longer available or I would link to it.
The link moved and I found it again. The title is Why do Li-ion Batteries die ? and how to improve the situation? and it's on the English for Science account. It runs over an hour and even as it's 10 years old, the information is very current.
Nice work. Thanks to you I’m still running strong in the bus
It is so great that you show the build quality on the battery, I have noticed this on many different china items
that I have disassembled, Great video will subscribe.
Great respect for your Depth of Knowledge and Methodology displayed here!
Hope you don't get sued.
We definitely need to boost US manufacturing of batteries and solar. I'm not a fan of slapping tariffs on imported goods, we should be able to innovate and complete fairly.
Cant compete....
Big difference in wages😢
@@titantitan2851 who has the majority of the raw materials?
It's tough to compete fairly when you have labor laws, and the country you're competing against uses slave and prison labor.
@@paulplack490 it worse if your talking about lithium batteries they have 8% of the global reserve and 72% of the refining capacity plus the issues you note
@@user-gl5kj1fm5x Time for a North American task force to surmount those limitations. No CEO's please.
This is yet another first-class review from Will. Thank you!
We don’t get a great selection of cheap batteries in Australia like you guys, our readily available cheap brand is the Kings battery which have passed many tests in by local UA-camrs but would be interesting to see Will put them through the test.
Maybe capacity test a couple of individual cells. Id love to see if they are all the same or degraded randomly.
To what end? Just avoid.
Great comments, my friend. Hope you continue with your great videos
I appreciated the rant at the end, them are facts!!!!!
The rant towards the end is golden
Will, sometime when discharged at ultra low C-rate, the easier ionic diffusion inside the cells make them to get a bit more capacity than at C/50 or C20, which is sometime what it is advertized on cheap cells... or even sometime it is a high.temperature discharge which boost the capacity compare to the one at 25celsius.. Which is why it give better capacity due to unconventional duscharge conditions....
Good point
I have appreciated every video you have done that I have seen. You are my go-to resource when i need info on these battery and solar systems... I am 69 and just starting a solar/battery system for our vintage RV combined with my shop. Thanks for all u have done and all u r yet 2 do! 😎
I briefly worked front of shop for a 4x4 electronics store which fitted DCS batteries to vehicles. Glad I didn't stick around long enough to sell a DCS, nor have to deal with any of the fallout surrounding it.
Why would you claim LCA and not CCA?
Because Lithium hates COLD so will usually perform bad in cold situations.
Maybe they changed it to avoid referencing to cold at all?
I just wonder how the reviewer treated the battery he reviewed
I see folks saying this and that flooded battery is crap
Yet I've run the same battery type off grid
But properly looked after for many years without problem
You are one of the few reviewers I trust for an honest and fair review
Cheers
Had two under bonnet in a landcrusier, think they were both 2 year old or there abouts. Installed by auto elec removed and tested by same auto elec.
The Australian government did official testing of batteries for some subsidy program and DCS was at the bottom of the list, and it wasn't by a small percentage. These were actual lab testing by proper engineers.
@@andrewfidel2220 i also believe the Australian Gov did a test of batterys and DCS was on of them. Same out come they failed the tests.
Yeah Ive not used DCS
But i have used flooded Century 8DN200Z, N70T, C145 260A 6V types and Supercharge allrounders over the last 14 years
Found them good the 8Ds lasted 6yrs to 8yrs till i swapped to lithium
Just trying a pair of kings 200ah lithiums
A pair of DCMont 300ah
And a pair of Rock 24v 100ah
Only cheapies but from 1st jan install in my solar only shack
They have worked fine runn8ng all 240v gear
But time will tell i guess
Cheers
For most, running a lithium starting battery might work…….. until you run it down. When the alternator goes to charge up a depleted lithium battery, that chemistry can pull a lot more amps than its lead acid counterpart and overload the alternator. Unless a lithium battery has charge limitation technology or the charging system has safeguards, stick to conventional starting batteries
Love that your video is live after seeing Rossmann discussing it. 🎉
You should follow up this review with a LiTime 12V 100Ah MAX. It is a LiTime battery with a 200A BMS and 800A/1S Discharge rating. Awesome video btw!!
6:08 ... I'm getting "Young Frankenstein" vibes here. I'm thinking you need a lab assistant named "eye-gor" with a hump on his back and a crazy eye.
I actually ran my old celica for years on a supercapacitor boost system and a $40 walmart battery. Originally the plan was to keep a LiFePO4 under the passenger seat so if needed I could charge the supercaps via the cigarette lighter but there's some regulation that says your hazard lights need to be able to remain on for atleast 20 minutes {possibly 30 I forget}.
Regardless I think cranking amps are best from supercapacitors and LiFePO4 batteries should just be backup power.
I really enjoy your videos and I love your load tester !!!
@@siguie2355 super capacitors don’t have the same downfalls as lithium batteries. I’ve known a couple of people who use them for primary starting purposes. As long as your vehicle is in good shape and starts easily then it’s no big deal. Keeping a small booster pack is a must though.
@@91CavGT5 My celica was AWESOME and probably never needed the battery. Generally there's enough charge for 2 to maybe 3 starts but then it recharges in only a few seconds once the engine is going.
I think most mechanics know of them now but the first few times they thought it was a bomb then they all had to uncouple the battery to see if it really could start the car so good entertainment value too.
6:08 That is the single most gremlin-style laugh you've done yet. Love your testing!
Thank you for pointing that out. That was an AMAZING laugh! He is such a joy filled fellow.
I couldn't have made it sound better myself!
Nice to see the video is still here. Keep up the good work.
Your testing was perfect. Excellent job. Looks like they use degraded higher capacity batteries that can offer the rating when you buy the product new . Since the cells are already degraded, that is why they die really fast compared to new correct capacity batteries.
This trick allows them to make more profit because degraded (used) higher capacity batteries are much cheaper than new lower capacity batteries. Even though they offer same capacity when the product is new. The ones with degraded (used) batteries won't last as long compared to ones with new cells.
Love it! You get better every month Will 🙂
Spot on Will. Spot on. Thank you.
The main concern from Stefan that he showed in his vids on his All Offroad Adventure channel was how bad the deg was and had put it down to under bonnet heat and 4WD application which the company specifically advertises it is suited for. Thanks Will, was hoping you'd pick this one up for a tear down!
The US gov't raising import fees to encourage local.
The local options: low quality and expensive
We should crowd fund a battery manufacturing enterprise and put Will in charge.
A million people, which is only 0.3% of the population, who have a strong interest in renewable energy each contributing $100 gets us to 100million.
I’m in!
Battery should be called "Will deliver(s) 100 amps" then.
This is the way!