Game of Thrones: Ned v Jon v Sansa - Battle of Ideologies
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
- In the first episode of our "Battle of Ideologies" series, we discuss the life philosophies Ned Stark, Jon Snow and Sansa Stark represent in HBO's Game of Thrones. Support ScreenPrism on Patreon: www.patreon.co...
The most prominent philosophical value in Westeros is honor. But we've seen that many characters think being honorable is stupid in this cruel world that requires characters to be cunning and adapt. Ned's honor is answered decisively through his fate. Yet over time Jon and Sansa prove that it's possible to practice versions of Intelligent Honor, and that in the long run certain honorable behaviors can be truly smart.
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can you make one about the baratheon brothers different ideologies? robert (steel), stannis (iron) ,renly (gold)
ScreenPrism can you make a video about Daenerys breaking the wheel: “This one's on top and that one's on top and on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground”. And Jon’s observations on politics:”I'm not going to swear an oath I can't uphold. When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies.". It could show an incite into the ending of game of thrones.
0l
Kkkk
I love how, even in the later seasons, Ned Stark still remains a relevant and important character/influence. Robb and Catelyn are scarcely mentioned, but Ned’s reputation as a paragon of virtue lends itself to the surviving Starks.
It's really sad because Cat gave everything to her children.Her teaching was also the reason of the strong Stark children what they are today.
Robb should have been mentioned more. He was the first king in 300 years, and it's because of him Jon was made king too. The only time we got to see his legacy was when they were asking for help and the lords said "Robb gave up his kingdom for some wife". Shame really.
@Basabdatta Deb uh does Jon not count as her kid or what because she treated him like garbage.
Actually, I believe killing off Arthur Dayne shook Ned’s core. He lived his life overcompensating.
Cat would still be relevant if she came back as a zombie
Not to come across as a book purist... but the books have slightly different messages and themes than the show. Having a reputation for being honourable doesn't make you seem stupid in the books like it does in the show. It is Ned's honour that won his people's full love and loyalty so that even years after his death "the North remembers" and is willing to fight and die to rescue and protect his children and put the Starks back in Winterfell. Ned is not remembered as an honourable fool, but as a good man whose teachings continue to inspire his children. Jon is actually much more cunning in the books than he is in the show. He's somewhat willing to be flexible with honour and do things which could even be seen as cold if it's for what he considers a greater good. Yes he is honourable and looks up to his father, but he is quite different from the rather singleminded Jon from the show.
Sansa's character is actually something of a realistic "Disney princess"; she has flaws like a real person but ultimately her character leans towards hope, optimism, romance and fantasy, and she holds a largely merciful attitude, having empathy even for her enemies (except Joffrey... though even watching his awful death made her cry despite her hatred of him). Sansa, like her father, has a tendency towards seeing the world and other people as they should be, rather than how they are, and expecting people to behave with honour and decency simply because that is what they're supposed to do in theory. This does get them in trouble (Ned getting beheaded for it and Sansa ending up a political prisoner) but ultimately, the message of the books is that being a decent and honourable person is worth it, even if the world is full of awful people... there will always be those who remember kindness, become better people themselves for experiencing it, and will therefore be willing to pay it back in full with loyalty. The loyalty of the North due to Ned's example of leadership, Jon's winning of friends and allies in the Nights Watch, Sansa's allies in Kingslanding... these things are won through kindness and honourable behavior. As Sansa thinks when Cersei tells her that she must rule through fear, "Love was a surer route to the people's loyalty...If I am ever queen, I will make them love me."
The show, I feel, goes for a more nihilistic message over all.
sanaa94 you think i’m gonna read all that? about a book series that’s never gonna end??
Coming from someone who only watches the show, this is a great comment! It's interesting to see how the show and books can take the same events while interpreting them differently.
It's a shame the show didn't commit to the "Great Northern Conspiracy", or it's closest equivalent. It goes a long way to validate the best parts of Ned's Code of Honour, wraps back around to subvert Tywin's focus on his family's legacy, and even ties into one of Bronn's throwaway lines in one of the earlier seasons. In treating his people fairly, Ned is forever remembered and his children are protected. In life, Ned was a fool, but in death, he is the "most popular dead man in town" and his people are all the better for it. It all ties together so well, it's a shame the show didn't commit to it just so they could wrap the show up as soon as possible.
So glad to see a comment regarding Jon's character in the book vs the show. He feels so much more characterful in the book. He struggles with his choices but I think he comes across as more practical and resourceful in the books.
The book is that they follow stark honor codes that they still remain loyal to them. While the Bolton and frey are about to be backstabb by the people they backstabbed. One mountain clans men even said they will sooner have his men die for Ned's girl then die in the snow. The books north remembers is more meaningful and the show just completely cut that off like how they cut off Blackfyre or aegon storyline the golden company. Karstark girl weds a wildling to form a new house, Val who hinted to be Jon's new lover.
sansa is like eveyone else we commit mistakes but learn from it thats why i like her my favorite quote of her is yes im a slow learner, its true, but i learn
She's just greedy. Dorne, high garden, eyrie, all of them fought and lost a lot. But sansa was like, North won't bend the knee. It was more like, she wanted to be the Queen, she just used the Northern sentiment to get what she wanted.
@@saranshbharti7105 So if a woman wants the throne, it's greedy. But if someone like Jon wanted it, you would justify it by saying that it makes sense. She's ambitious and looking for security, and so she wants to be in a position where she can't be hurt as easily again.
@@QueenGallade98 Her being smart all of a sudden is bad writing on the side of d&d that's all it is .
ahh I love hearing people actually acknowledging Sansa
Elise Bech she's a slow learner. It's true. Nevertheless she is dangerous and the Lady of Winterfell.
Shayne McIntyre that's the only credit she can attach to her name. and she only got it coz robb died. she's nothing but a pawn in the game. she's so naive and actually doesn't stand for any distinguishable ideology. arya has more balls to develop a personal ideology than sansa does.
You have an interesting pov. I like Arya as well. She is fierce, no?
Shayne McIntyre yes she is. and to be honorable, one needs to be fierce enough to fight for whatever he/she believes in. it takes guts to be honorable and sadly, sansa doesn't have guts. the scenes shown here where she seemed "winning" was all due to interventions of other characters who actually have spines.
Elise Bech yass! She is such a marvelous character
Off topic but Gods I miss Robert Baratheon. Mark Addy played him perfectly with that booming voice of his.
GODS I WAS BOOMING THEN!
BOW YA SHITS
he was too short
I missed him.....
And another 9 Game of Thrones cast members from each family, filming in my city this year, and the last few years.
As usual they kept the filming a secret until after they'd finished filming, or kept the cast hidden from public.
Legend has it, lancel is still looking for the breastplate stretcher...
Sansa's arc is my favorite really. She's grown and learned so much and is the most like a real person you could relate to. She's gone through the worst and come out stronger and smarter and still with her humanity intact. I hope she makes it to the end.
Sansa is my favourite character. I find her the most impressive... but then I dont generally like 'Superheros'; I like Hero's.
Iwgoinghome I doubt she will die in Season 8 despite a number of people saying that she will be a casualty in the Great War. Even if Littlefinger is gone now and she won the great game, her role in the Great War and Westorosi politics isn't done; in fact, it might just be starting. IMO she is a perfect contender for claiming the Iron Throne as I doubt that Daenerys will live to become Queen of the Seven Kingdoms in the end and Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryen or Tyrion Lannister will rule the Seven Kingdoms in her stead; her balance between compassion for others and cunning wisdom and ruthlessness are recipes of a great ruler as per Tywin's words: "A wise king knows what he knows and what he doesn't."
I agree and I hope you're right.
I hope she is the first to die hate her almost as Daenerys !
Agreed, she is my favorite character on the show.
I enjoy Sansa's character because even though she isn't the mother of dragons or a skilled assassin, well, neither am I. To be fair, she doesn't have those epic badass qualities that other GoT ladies have, but again, neither do I. To me, she is one of the most relatable women since she is kind of just a normal girl caught up in lots of things she can't control. Not everyone can be a conqueror or a warrior, some just have to be like Sansa. I believe she's done pretty well given all the situations she's been put in, and the fact that she's simply survived is good enough for me. Even if she's not as smart as she wants to be, she's still smarter than she used to be. I also care a lot about her because the assault was a big plot point for her, and as a fellow rape survivor I want to see her succeed and become stronger. I see a lot of myself in her, whereas it's harder to put myself in the shoes of someone like Daenerys or Arya who are both just so cool and powerful. I enjoy all of these characters for different reasons, and it's okay to like everyone.
I think this is the key to respond to people who insist in making you choose between Sansa and Arya: it's okay to like them both.
Sarah Miller Daeny was also raped, but she gets stronger in every episode and every season. Sansa is too self absorbed for me to like her character. Arya has always been strong and has always know her the right and wrongs
Sansa is self absorbed is so incorrect but go off I guess
Sansa does seem self absorbed but Reilly its self preservation.
Exactly. God forbid she care about surviving when she's living in a lions den full of people who want to use her and abuse her. How dare she care about keeping herself alive and doing what she can to get by.
But when enough people make false promises words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers only better and better lies. - Jon Snow (best Line IMO)
suburbannegro411 that line sums what’s wrong in the world of ice and fire.
Uniting the Stark loyalist and taking back Winterfell was actually Sansa's idea, not Jon's.
Jon actually refused at first to comply.
the fought for Jon Snow and his cause, not Sansa. Jon's main objective was Rickon
@@9822703 and SANSA clearly told jon before the fight .. THAT THEY WONT GET RICKON ALIVE!!!
She told him he was going to die. So what? What were they going to do on the eve of battle? It's not like she gave any alternatives
@@9822703 she told him not to do what Ramsay wanted him to do. Ramsay knew Jon would abandon his plan the moment he heard Ramsay tell Rickon that he has to run to his brother and nothing else. In a way, Sansa told him not to fall into his trap, buuuut he did and she had to bail him out
@@QueenGallade98 Sansa gave no information regarding in what he should not do. it was very vague. so no she didn't tell him anything and offered no alternative to change his motives for battle or tactics in battle. so Sansa remains guilty of being dumb, useless, and of course because of the previous two uninformative.
By the looks of these comments, people are gonma be real mad when Sansa survived to the end of the series
@LagiNaLangAko23 I'm not sure you can call them Dany fans. Most of the people who hate Sansa also claim that Dany is the "Mad Queen", and they're only interested in Arya when she kills people.
She's Queen in the North so y'all haters can fuck off
😂😂😂😂
And look what happened, she’s Queen in the north and Dany is dead!! 😂😂😂😂
The way Sansa handled the Little Finger situation was prime example of her ability to lead. She also learned from those who tried to hurt her by thinking as they would think and flipping it on them. Example is her calling the knights of the vale.
sansa is not leader she wasn't originally created to become one
glorilol 95 who cares what she was originally created from what we’ve seen on the show she’s a leader
+theSuperNats i and MANY others care and no she is not a leader...who did she rally based on her charisma?no one...who did she inspire?no one...who did she lead? no one
lotta native american tribes would have two chiefs. a wartime chief and a peacetime chief. Very different approach required, different goals, different priorities.
Sansa has demonstrated on the show that she knows what it takes to provide food and equipment to outfit her men. She has demonstrated an active role in addressing the concerns raised by those under her charge. We haven't seen enough of it, and we haven't seen her tested much as a leader. It did appear that we should be left with the impression that if nothing else she approached the responsibility with respect. She also did so with a certain amount of poise despite always being distrustful of Littlefinger... I always thought the tension between Sansa and Arya after her return was a misdirect for the audience. like, "we need to manufacture drama at winterfell because we have a couple big plot points to hit there later, but they might not have the right impact if we don't keep you guessing for that story line."
I would have called the way it happened predictable, but I was thrown off by the exclusion of a scene where Sansa asks Bran for his insight. I thought getting to a place were Arya kills Littlefinger with the cat's paw was inevitable (once Bran gave it to her) I also wasn't sure if Arya was baiting Littlefinger. Arya knows when she is being watched right? right!? Master assassin can't tell their being tailed, the dragons are more realistic. Then the monologue where Arya tells Sansa about wearing other faces. They timed that creepy moment a little too well. and I started second guessing. Did she expect Baelish to be listening to that conversation...? By the trial when Sansa accused Baelish I felt validated and confused. Where was the Bran knows everything scene?
I'm glad to hear that Sansa of the novels perspective was largely told through internal monologue. I get the impression Sophie is playing her very thoughtfully. I appreciate, with regards to her growth, that it doesn't seem Sansa would have been predisposed to contemplation, assessing, planning, but she was forced to in order to survive.
You realize that Sansa was going to kill Arya on the trial, but in a CUT SCENE, Brann tells Sansa about Littlefinger, so Sansa changes her mind?
How is Sansa smart? After so many years next to LF she still believes him? And she would execute her own sister just because she got manipulated?
Pls, go away with that feminist propaganda.
If any girl is badass in GoT, it's Arya and Brienne.
I hate when people refer to Jon’s attempt to save Rickon as stupid. Yes, it wasn’t a good idea, but put yourself in Jon’s shoes. Would you really let your little brother die like that and make no effort to try and save him? If you would then you’re a complete sociopath. He did what any loving brother would do in that situation. I think it was the fault of Tormund and Davos for not trying to hold Jon back or tackle him or something. They had amble opportunity to do so.
Amen to that. People try to use that scene to big up Sansa as this clever person, but what she did was one moment use Rickon's imprisonment as a way to manipulate Jon into attacking Winterfell, and then when push comes to shove she basically tells him to leave Rickon to die.
I agree how is sacrificing to save your family even if feels like a bad idea but you love that person a stupid thing to do.
It wasn't really stupid, it was a very knee jerk reaction, but this is also what Sansa warned him of.
Sansa new about the knights of the veil and did'nt tell Jon their brother and hundreds of men would'nt have died
Yes,Jon is not selfish like Sansa.Though I don't blame her for it because she has survived and doesn't want to go through it ever again.
Thoroughly enjoyed the video. There's just one thing I disagree with. It seems to me that Arya embodies Justice rather than Honor. Sure, she's certainly got the Stark sense of family loyalty, but that doesn't equate to honor. I'm not saying she's dishonorable, just that she's not truly concerned with honor one way or the other. I know some would say she embodies vengeance rather than justice, but that ignores the context and tries to force our modern sense of justice onto a society that sees things much differently. Every name on Arya's list is there for a very good reason, so killing them is very entirely in keeping with the Northern view of justice.
I would argue that Arya represent the dark element or misunderstanding of justice. While the people Arya killed are not good, Arya herself however kills people based on emotions. The notable example is when Arya suggested Sansa to executed Glover all cause he insults and disagrees with Jon and nearly threaten Sansa in season 7. That does not say Arya embodies Justice, but rather vengeance and spite. So really, she murders people who anger her.
@@isaacgray2909 also it's stupid for two separate reasons. First of all murder just doesn't inspire loyalty and secondly what Arya suggested was exactly what got Robb killed. The way Arya looked at it, Ned and Robb death was only caused injustice not their own mistake. She is blinded by her emotion and can't see the bigger picture.
@@isaacgray2909 So stupid.Sansa is useless.
I always knew that sticking with Sansa till the end was going to he worth it. I never gave up on her and it paid off
It's called fanservice, enjoy it!👍
4:57 taking back winterfell was Sansa's decision!!
but the credit goes to Jon Snow for taking Winterfell
@@9822703 I give some of that to Gender bias in the North.
If Sansa didn't ask for the Vale Army, Jon and the North were dead, because he couldn't keep to his plan; and the main reason why was Ramsey had Rickon and Ramsey's better at mind games.
@@deportuscaesar5092 It takes a wise person to swallow their pride and ask for help.
She absolutely deserve the credit. If she didn't do it, Jon and the North would be dead, because Ramsey outplayed Jon.
She also put herself in play to get LF out of the picture.
If she didn't ask, then you and others would yell; Sansa swallow your pride ask LF for the Vale, with some heated words.
@@9822703 Credit for what? Leaving his position as leader of the army and losing the Battle of the Bastards? If it wasn't for Sansa and the army Jon would be dead, together with any hope of taking back the North.
@@pretendtheresaname9213 maybe you missed it but the battle was a victory. it was jon and HIS supporters that rettook that castle. Sansa's contribution was nonexistent. Littlefinger rode to winterfell for his personal power grab for the north under the guise it was for sansa. she's a means to an end. not the end. he rescued the outnumbered coalition but Jon and his men get the credit. they initiated battle, Littlefinger just joined in. and no jon charging fireward was not stupid. the objective was Prince Rickon not Winterfell. he risked his own life not his army's. they charged under the command of Ser Davos. it was because of Sansa's lack of contribution that nearly killed Jon Snow and killed Rickon Stark.
In my opinion this video captures the real meaning of Game of Thrones! Thank you!
Thank you! We appreciate that
I also concur
more video essays on sansa please, my dad hates her and i need to show him the light >:(
Show him the light of the Sansa.... See what I did there.
yoxredwolf what was she gonna do? She was bethroated to him and he was the prince; it wouldn't heve been a smart decision to cross him, and Sansa knew that even back then. Also,nothing wouldn't have happened if Arya didn't lose her temper
I think we all hated her at first, she was a little sissy. But she's coming into her own now so I like her much more. Especially when she outsmarted Littlefinger
I’m on your dad’s side. I hate her because she’s extremely slow and naive even at the end she is not that sharp.
@yoxredwolf and this is exactly why I love Sansa. Stop acting as if no game of thrones character have flaws. Everyone does. Yes she was spoiled and naive and I hated her throughout most of the series, but to see how much she's learnt and grown from it is what made her my top favorite character by season 6 and 7.
So many devoted Sansa haters in the comments, good lord. Y'all have been holding grudges since she was barely more than a little girl in season 1. You need to let it go and open up your eyes. I think this video sums up the concept of measured honor perfectly.
Callie Herring Honor do not implied measurement. That's the point of honor
this video didn't show any way she was honourable just she was with no evidence yeah she sticks with family at the end shes a survivor not like ned or john
yoxredwolf been waiting for her to die for 7 seasons
Then you missed the entire point of her story
These
My horse has more honor than some of these people. I do miss him...
Jaime Lannister haha, honor.
KINGSLAYER !
@@hiphopblows9490 his name is Jaime... Jaime Lannister
This channel is underrated...Cant wait for the next video
Sansa may be a slow learner but she is learning nonetheless .
Even though she has been tortured by Ramsay ,Cersai ,Joffery, Little finger(categorically) etc she has been smart enough to not be so blinded by her hate towards the so as to not see how they work and think .Intelligence or smartness isn't just about making the best decisions. It's about learning from your and others mistakes, being adaptable and being empathatic enough to step into the other person's shoes to see how the think and then frame your decisions instead of blindly sticking to honour( because everyone is not as honorable as you are) that'll more often than not end up getting a person killed needlessly in Westeros(eg. Ned Stark)
PS: Sorry for the lengthy comment
Sansa Stark is my favorite character on Game of Thrones, and I don't care what any haters have to say.
I like her as well. Also Arya, Tywin and Cersei.
She’s a moron. When Jon was going on a diplomatic mission to secure there survival during the long night she said ‘ you are abandoning your people’
Jpercie 123 dude literally everyone acted stupid after s7 started. Sansa survived the Lannisters, Littlefinger, AND The Boltons.
Sansa was a foolish child thinking she was a princess only after her fathers death she started to wake up from her fucking fairy tale
God Emperor Donny T well ofc sansa was pretty cringe but can you blame her? she grew up with fairytales of princesses and princes and that was the custom “dream” for women in the universe. also, she was consistently annoyed by her “tomboyish” sister, arya, which could’ve made her want to become more “feminine” to contrast her. it wasn’t until everything went to shit that she realized how much more intelligent she needed to be to play the game.
I LOVE the way Daenerys's dialogue about heroes doing stupid things was edited over shots of Jon fighting...gave me chills. Since that was obviously her trying to deny her crush ♥️
I always ask WWJD (what would Jon do)
+ Liam Dillon Another victim shamer.
Sounds a lot like Jesus, too.
+maemaree33 not shaming anyone, just sayin if jon didnt have that main character plot protection hes a goner a long time ago
+Liam Dillon Yes. As has Tyrion, Jorah, Daenarys and Arya..... to mention a few.... Funny that..... what with GOT being a fictional tale. People die to spear head the plot. People survive for the same reason. Ned's death was the only death that really only subverted the genre as it can easily be argued that his death comes by his hubris which is completely in keeping with the tropes of tragedy. And BTW saying he got himself killed is victim shaming. He didn't fall off the wall because he was drunk!!! He was murdered. By a man who made no apology and who at his execution said he hopes that he would have made the same decision despite knowing it meant his death. So clearly there was nothing that Jon could of done to circumvent what happened.
Can you even imagine being sansa? Being close to the most despicable characters to the the point she even kissed them all three!! I could never
Sansa has always been one of my favorite characters, since Season 1. I saw through her choices and I knew why she did what she did. Too bad many turned a blind eye and just judged her harshly.
I just realized how strong the Starks are. Jon as a morally righteous figurehead, Sansa as a politically genius strategist, Bran as a near omnipotent sagelike advisor, and Arya as an unmatched executioner. It's all the tools needed to run a kingdom.
I have to say a lot of people hated Sansa this season. But she is not the same girl who put her childish dreams of Knights, Kings, Queens, Princes, and Princesses before her family. She actually had a chance to take control of The North. They offered to name her their Queen. But she stayed true to Jon and the trust he placed in her and reaffirmed him as king. Even after he bent the knee without telling her, Sansa still refused to have him unnamed. Even though it has been said by the actors that there was a deleted scene where Sansa was actually thinking of killing Arya because of ideas being put in her head by Littlefinger about how dangerous and scary Arya was acting. She didn't just listen to Littlefinger, in the deleted scene she went to Bran first to basically to seek his council. Her doing that resulted in Littlefinger's crimes coming to light and finally being punished by the Stark children. She has come a long way IMO.
Yeah, you are so right. From outright betraying her family to considering betraying her family but hesitating enough that someone else can tell her what to do instead. yey, she is doing so good! And it took her only 7 years too!
And you also praise her for not betraying Jon? As though THAT showed her honor in any way? For a honorable person, the insinuation alone that she would stab in the back a brother who is risking his life to save them would be an insult. She was actually considering it! And she didn't refuse because she was better than to betray Jon, she refused because while some may have complained about Jon most Lords wouldn't have stood for that betrayal and you can bet that Arya wouldn't. Not to mention she had no idea what to do about the White Walkers. She didn't really do the honorable thing by refusing, from her pov she simply did the only feasible thing at that point.
Marta S how is it betraying your family when said family member is a trained assassin and threatening to kill you???
Marta S If a member of your family was talking about killing you and cutting off your face to use as her own, how would you feel?
Marta S There we go someone understands why Sansa is such a bitch honestly she's like the Starks version of Cersei
Honestly, you guys do such fantastic work. Your Game of Thrones analyses nail it right on the money every time!! Also thank you for outlining why Sansa is my favorite character in the entire show.
Thank you very much!
I think people tend to be way too simplistic with the take that "honor is a mistake", usually contrasting Ned being naive and dumb with Littlefinger's approach. But GRRM is very consistent in showing balance in these sorts of things. No one can doubt that Ned's rigid system of honor led to his death and fall. But over the course of the next 4 books, we see the consistent flaws with Littlefinger's approach, whereas the Ned's strength is revealed. No matter how cleverly Littlefinger plays the game, he struggles to gain real power. He maneuvers and schemes and betrays, and gains title and gold, but he still struggles to gain a real foothold of power. His position remains tenuous at every turn. And on the other hand, Ned's reputation as an honorable man continues to pay dividends throughout the rest of the story. The strength of his name allows the Stark children to gain *real* power in a natural way that Littlefinger can only envy.
It's a really simplistic dualism, but it's an important one. GRRM has a simple style, where he likes to show both sides of the coin. To read the story and have your takeaway about honor be that "it gets you killed" badly misses the point. Littlefinger's approach was equally flawed as Ned's. Ned might have had a weakness that could be exploited, but nothing that Littlefinger could do, no matter how cleverly he worked, could rival the natural power that was earned by Ned's honorable reputation. In the show, we even see his downfall, and we see that no matter how much power he gained, he was still an order away from death, while the Stark children were just a push away from ruling a kingdom.
sansa character arc is my favorite. so much growth and so adaptable. i want her to sit on the throne tbh
This is one of the best videos I've seen on this channel !
Thanks Shivani!
When it comes to honour, everyone seems to pick and choose. Their choice might seem honourable to themselves but not to others and the other way around.
Eddard Stark would have married Arya into another house as all nobles do. Despite her not wanting to be a "lady".
It honours the house, by protecting it and the people within. But it shames his daughter.
So good Lord or good father. Which has more honour.
Qhorin Halfhand taught Jon most about honour.
To have it you may have to abandon it. Oaths, vows, sworn.
Words are nothing
Words are wind
Jon is not smarter than his dad, he just has thick plot armor :)
Abdi he’s basically Jesus Ned Stark
meltingapplesauce thats a great thing to call him
Well he gave up his first love for order and look how much he was rewarded for it.
@@sebas8225 wasn't he elected as commander of nights watch because of that😑
He's not, but hopefully hus siblings will back up that part for him
I was never a huge Sansa fan but I'm starting to warm up to her character. But it seems like everyone who dislikes sansas character is a HUGE daenerys fanatic. I mean these girls are both in the same boat. Why can't people be ok with more than one woman on the show who has power?
Nothing to do with women who have power. I like the women of the show. Love Arya and Lyanna Mormont, loved Margary and Olena, Liked Shea and Asha. I can even appreciate Cersei for what she is. Dislike both Danny and Sansa. They get too much praise for too little effort on their part.
Danny has everything done for her on the show, it's like stuff keeps falling into her lap without much work or special talent on her part which coupled with her being a favorite annoys me to no end. She is actually the reason why I didn't watch GoT till season 5.
When the show was blowing up I was planning on getting around to watching it and then by accident at a friends house saw the scene of Danny trying to get the ships from the merchant in begging of season 2. I heard enough spoilers to know who she was and that she was a favorite. That scene convinced me that if SHE was the best it had to offer then I won't be bothering with the show at all. Was forced to watch it when I got all seasons as a gift and I am grateful because she turns out to be one of the worst characters on the show.
There is a similar problem with Sansa, she gets a lot of credit for weird stuff. Like for surviving alone, though she herself didn't actually do anything to survive. Were she not a useful pawn she would've been dead ages ago, because she doesn't do anything to save herself really AND makes stupid mistakes, she just keeps her head down and hops for someone else to save her. On top of just being a selfish and stupid person, there is little to like about her.
Marta S I use to hate sansa but I somewhat like her now. But I can agree with you on Daenerys and the show overall. I mean Jon was my favorite but they've made him look stupid. And at least you state facts. But with the show, I won't be watching season 8. It's gone completely to shit with the writing. You know it's bad when some people, like myself, are actually rooting for an ancient evil to win and kill everyone.
I think everyone is so focused on "Who should be on that Iron Throne?" that they have a hard time with characters who don't want the Iron Throne. Sansa once wanted to be queen, sitting next to Joffrey, raising their little kids. Look where that fucking got her. She doesn't want the throne any more. She wants to keep her family together, and keep the North together, so they can survive winter.
Or maybe it's because, let's be real, Daenerys has dragons, you don't fuck with that.
stewieismyhomeboy especially when she threatens basically everyone and everything with it. 😂
I think one of the haters' reasons for hating Sansa is because she does not have any magical creatures like a dragon or because she's not a warrior woman, Sansa does not fit that, Sansa is a political leader, but in a matter of suffering, she suffered a lot , had practically the entire family murdered, was beaten, humiliated and raped. But haters do not think she's strong just because she had to lower her head and be a pawn to survive in the snake's nest, they do not seem to understand that Sansa, Daenerys, and Arya are in different situations while Dany is thrown around the world with dragons, she needs to win followers for support to win, Arya needs to be clever and run away to survive, but Sansa was a prisoner in a court full of snakes, she had no one to trust, she had no way to get away, and moreover the only way she could find a way to survive was to have to bow her head and accept that she was just a pawn.
Thank you for recognizing Sansa's intelligence!!!
Well...That was quicker than I expected refering to my Sansa request. I can settle for this than a separate video on her. lol
Overlapping Sansa's and Littlefinger's same words was brilliant and caused goosebumps.
Sansa haters are funny. they come up with the stupidest reason to hate her lol... I love all the Starks so get over it, she's a great fucking character and she's smarter than Jon in a political POV, he's more honorable yes but that got Ned killed. She is the Queen in chess while Jon is King both super important but you can't win the game without both.....
"I love all the Starks so get over it," who give a fuck seriously.....
glorilol 95 LMAO apparently you since you replied :)
Brianna Camejo oh yeah?well............that is actually a fair point
glorilol 95 Thanks buddy :)
‘Sansa is smarter in a political POV than Jon’
Lol, sansa wanted to execute 2 kids younger than her for their predecessors fighting against Jon. Yet Jon sparred them, and let them pledge out of their own will to be his bannermen.
Also, there are no stupid reasons for hating sansa, only one I can think of is:
‘No one likes a rape victim’
I think Sansa has definitely learned how to play the game of thrones, but (well, we know what Ned said about that word) she's still inexperienced with taking responsibility for it. Littlefinger is her first real step into the game. Up until then, her advice to Jon was basically: "Don't do what they want you to do." Jon: "Brilliant. How (if you're so smart)?" Sansa: "I don't know." And so Jon, having being an actual piece on the board for a while, has to make a calculated guess. I do hope that Sansa's hard-earned understanding, combined with Arya's learned dispassion will serve the North well -- Jon is so focused on surviving (someone has to be) that leading is nothing more than a tool for him, not a goal.
I mean, I think the problem is they were talking about Ramsay Bolton, one of the most unpredicatable characters in the show. I think what she was really trying to say was "I don't what the fuck Ramsay is going to do, but you are severely underestimating him." but the writers couldn't really figure out how to do that.
It was an obvious advice, but John did exactly what Ramsay wanted him to do. He should have listened to her instead of leading his men to their demise.
Silver Viper he didn't necessarily lead them to their demise. If you didn't notice, Jon throughout the season 6 actually wanted to die. He was constantly telling Melisandre not to resurrect him anymore, he says that he is tired of fighting. The only reason Jon agrees to fight was because Ramsay captures Rickon, that was his entire goal, he didn't give an F about Winterfell or what not, just his family. But, he had good enough strategy to fight Ramsay off, he puts Davos in command so that he would lead the army in case something happens to him and rides alone for Rickon, and accepts his death there after Rickon is dead. But the fact that his people had so much respect for him is what got them trapped, instead of going along with the plan, they decide to go and save Jon. It wasn't his decision.
@@brucesnow7125 sansa told him that Rickon was already dead... there was no hope for him... and that Ramsey would only use him to play a game with jon. Once again, Sansa was right!
She won the battle of the bastards and got no credit for it. Jon is a fool. He has always underestimated sansa and she was far smarter than him
People who hate Sansa only prove that they hate a female character for sticking to her feminine qualities. They only like arya because she “doesn’t want to be a lady but wants to be a knight” with qualities that are considered masculine. Why all the hate on sansa? She never got the chance to become anything more she was oppressed her whole life and she endured and survived just like any other character, but nooo she’s not interesting enough because she is not the “unburnt” or “no one”.
I love her, she is relatable and shows a realistic example to the viewers of how to behave in times of oppression, how to remain sane and keep our humanity intact and pure while also becoming smart and wise. She learns and endures and defends her family and tricks littlefinger of all people!! Yet she is still not interesting!!! I call bullshit
there are people who love Sansa for sticking to her feminine qualities. the only hate Arya because she " doesn't want be be a weak lady but someone with power with qualities that are considered masculine .Why all the love on Sansa? She got the chance to become something. she was privileged and spoiled her whole life and she was kept alive. She never had to survive unlike any other character, but yes she is not interesting enough because she is not the " Frozen" or "Someone". (she is the "stupid")
i hate her character, she is unrelatable and shows a realistic example to the viewers of how to behave in times of being spoiled and treated like a Royal hostage befitting her rank. how to remain clueless, and to keep her stupidity intact and pure while also becoming dumb and dumber. she never learns and sells out her family and is tricked by Little finger. Yest she is still not interesting!!! i call Truth!
So glad there are people finally giving Sansa credit. There was so much hate for her in the early seasons for not being as brave or as courageous as other characters, but come on, be real. She was barely a teenager from a very sheltered, privileged life who had been raised to be the perfect lady/damsel and had been taught that all she was meant to do was marry a prince or lord and be a great lady. She blindly followed Joffrey and the world of Kings Landing because it was all she had been raised to do. Even without this upbringing, how many thirteen year old girls would have it in them to be strong and defiant when surrounded by people who could have you killed in a moment? She's grown up into a strong character in spite of everything she had against her.
she deserves the hate. but is for her willful ignorance and her stupidity. they were not out to kill her either she was a safe hostage. they needed her ovaries or her person as a bargaining chip so alive = profit or insurance.
Best growth is in sansa's character , real character
Jon Snow is fucking amazing
He left the north with a boat and ser Davos
He's returning with Dany,Dothaki,unsullied,dragons,dragonglass
And a truce with the Lannisters
Dan B you forget to mention the dragon ass as well.
Jons strategic honor also got him killed, I love him but he is not that smart, he's still enjoying his 2nd life because strong plot armour.
seribelz not smart?
Good but mostly about Jon. I want to hear more about Sansa and Arya. I think Arya can be too black and white.
Yep. Threatening to kill Sansa, because she refused to kill lords, that just once questioned the decision of the king, was way to much overreaction. I still think, Arya just hated on her because they didn´t like eachother as sisters. In the books, Arya actually misses Sansa (from time to time, she misses her brothers way more, but she isn´t hating on sansa anymore)
Haha, House of Black and White. I see what you did there
Melissa Berne Jon is more important tho.
........anyway i love sansa and relate to her a lot! i saw a lot of myself as a young teenager in her, she feels realistic. and now she's' a woman scorned by trauma and horror and has changed so much and MAN i'm soOoOo excited to see what she does next. great video!!
Man other GOT videos are good but this channel goes so in-depth about subjects ive not seen others cover as fully 👍
A Theon video would be great!
Thank you for putting so much emphasis on Sansa's character. She really gets ignored too much for the wrong reasons.
Jon, unlike Ned, has some pretty nice plot armour too
Trevor Woolson Not really He did die
Jon has Red god armour
No he's Jesus Ned Stark
"Honour… What do you know about honour? You, whose never faced true fear. Learn what honour is before pretending you are a warrior."
You guys should do another ideology battle between Cersei, Tyrion & Jamie
Great video, but I thought that your argument about Sansa/Arya needed more elaboration. There is a legitimate (though a little hostile) conversation happening in the comments about Sansa's perception of honor, and actions of hers that are less than honorable. I think it is worth discussing how the desire to behave honorably does not always result in honorable behavior because of a character's limited frame of reference. Example: Consider Sansa's decision to tell Cersei that Ned is trying to get them all out of King's Landing. From her frame of reference, in which kings/princes are noble and queens are gracious and lovely, which comes from poems and songs, it isn't unreasonable to assume that she considered Ned's decision to sneak them out of the city as less-than-honorable. So an action she thought was honorable - revealing a sneaky plot - was actually dishonorable because she didn't have the information she needed to assess the situation holistically. Her decision to marry Ramsey is arguably similar; she is trying to make honorable and smart decisions, but has a hard time doing so because she is put into situations without the information she needs. So, again, cool video, but could maybe use a sequel where there is more time to talk about Sansa/Arya in more detail.
Not really though. She didn't tell Cersei because she still thought "kings/princes are noble and queens are gracious and lovely" and wanted to do what's right. She already knew Joffery was a shit with him attacking Arya and Mickah and that Cercei was a c*** for demanding Lady's death. She told not because she still believed that Joff and Cercei are noble and it was the honorable thing to do. She told because she wanted to stay to become a queen. She betrayed her family because she was selfish, also shows she doesn't learn sine in the previous situation with Joff she did the same mistake.
to be sure she admired her fairy tale idea of the lives kings queens and nobility. But not more than her family. I just never got that from her character. What I picked up on was that at the outset she might have been the most naive and trusting of the Stark kids. Cersei had probably pegged Sansa as the weakest link right away. Sansa was sheltered and did not have the context, foresight, or imagination to either resist, respond, or react to the situation in kings landing. She really was a scared little girl than with no clue how the game of thrones works. when she arrived there she wouldn't have known there was a game, or how the pieces move, or what the players are motivated by, she didn't know how to tell who was playing the game and who was abstaining from that headache. The events that led to her father's death and that damn note were the result a a vulnerable, scared, untraveled little girl learning first hand what this game is and why its played. No one in her family harbored the ambition or a means of preparing her to cope with being tossed into the middle of a power struggle, when we meet her she is the only little girl for whom dreams of being a princess or queen make her something of a blacksheep in the family, also the only one we meet for whom such dreams are attainable.
She believes as long as she is courteous and lady-like everything will be okay. Her child like innocence could have been spliced in between shots of Ned and Drogo's deaths at the end of that first season and it would have matched the themes perfectly. Oh, and the childlike part of that is a nice way of saying she was selfish. kids tend to be selfish, lack foresight, don't quite grasp consequences.
She gets that striving to be honorable thing from her dad, and as soon as her innocence is murdered along with him, she tries to let that be her motivation. she could easily become persona-non-grata around Kings Landing, doesn't have any allies near her, probably wouldnt survive a trip to Winterfell unescorted, and hasn't yet learned rule one of the game, the power struggle, the thing she dreamed of as a little girl. And her brief time married to the sadistic more selfish, more oblivious to the needs and desires of others, than herself. King shit butt (that was his name right?)
has pretty much shit all over her dreams, showed her first hand that the world does not have her back, and doing as she is told will not make things alright, learns what it is like to be a prisoner with a prettier cell. She is alone save for those who would manipulate her to better their own position on the gameboard. She adapts. She begins to learn from the other players. Though very different paths, in some ways, her training was more treacherous than that which Arya received at the house of black and white. She was still not ready to truly demonstrate her agency as a player in this game until she could excise the cancer that is Littlefinger from anything to do with her family. He set in motion the events that killed her father, His attempt at having Bran killed, his unrequited love for Cate mutating into his predatory, manipulative and controlling, his entirely uncomfortable and more than a little lusty desire for Sansa... all motives for her to rid herself of him. But she has learned enough to consolidate allies before making a move for another player. Not her siblings but to safeguard the alliance between the North and the Vale. It is poetic justice that her siblings were integral to her ability to remove this infection.
Aidan Gillen is damn amazing actor, in retrospect I might like Littlefinger the villian about as much as I like Walter White, the villian. Great dynamic motivated ambitious characters portrayed with enough care that one might need to remind themselves those moments of sympathy you feel for them, they don't deserve them... you only feel that cause you're both human.
Anyway, Sansa is awesome she has easily shown as much character arch as anyone else on the show. I think I like her growth the most because it has been very gradual, with monumental obstacles along the way. Plus she didn't even know she was signing up to face any kind of adversity at all. She got thrown in the deep end with some of the most vicious and cunning sharks the franchise has ever introduced us to, not only did she survive, but she fed one of those sharks to his own dogs. She learned that she can bring others to her employ without the need for deceit. I hope she becomes the first in Westoros to survive the power struggle into her later years and reconcile the game with the sense of Honor instilled into all the Stark Kids by Ned. In a longer view if this game is a battle of ideologies Than perhaps Ned is the real winner. His children, those he raised (not just Jon Theon too) have either redeemed themselves and their family or seem poised to do so.
If want to get overly optimistic in my speculation, I'd guess that when the fight for the Iron Throne has moved to a slower paced gear, when westoros next sees lasting stability the noble houses will be able to play six degrees of Nedard stark with 3 degrees and still always find a connection.
That was the worst stretch for an analogy after multiple hours spent writing youtube comments virtually no one will finish writing wild unfounded speculation about a fantasy series I have only watched on HBO, okay so there are like two or three random chapters I have read trying to find the battle of the viper and the mountain, I was not about to wait two weeks after all that hype. I bet I would accomplish things if i could manage this much effort aimed at my own creative endeavors.
honestly if there is a single reader that has made it through all this, please message me to tell me how out of touch with reality you think i may be drifting. ishthestomach@ gmail
She did it not out of honor but for her selfish want to be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. she wanted power, Ned threatened that power. she betrayed her family something that is considered dishonorable because she was selfish.
*Just a quick reminder b4 I watch the video this is the best channel on UA-cam*
Thank you so much!
3:06 I was actually about to tear up at this visual
Sansa is my Favorit stark
Sansa became my favourite Stark
She became mine too
Till death do us part, right
Mine is Arya but Sansa second favorite...
I wanna see the look on the face of Jaime when Arya says your pappy's not the only one who wiped out a house.
And i liked Sansa very much she is the head of the Stark household now. And i think she is doing greatm
Sees Littlefinger vs Varys
*subscription intensifies*
I swear I pressed the sub button so fast I could have stopped Ned's beheading
Ha! Thank you for subscribing we're happy to have such a great audience
sansa stark will sit on the iron throne !!
No
She has no claim
Absolutely fucking not
I would be alright with that but I believe Tyrion is more deserving
Kind of. She's Queen of the North now.
Man! I can't wait until their next video on Littlefinger vs Varys. I'd been wanting to see a breakdown of those two characters for the longest.
I never clicked so fast
I think Ned’s biggest flaw wasn’t that he was honorable, but that he expected everyone to follow the same code of honor as him, like when he handed Cersei Roberts decree of succession and she just ripped it up and then had him arrested.
Great vídeo please never stop doing GoT vídeos because you make it very interesting!!!
Thanks so much!
I’m a slow learner Lord Baelish but I do learn
Sansa is truly one of the most compelling and intelligent characters in this series and god do I love her book and show
I also think she’s a wonderful look at breaking fantasy tropes
You undoubtedly do some of the best and deepest GoT analysis on YT! Ned was indeed too rigid, but he was wise, and he's the most esteemed and remembered character by other characters...except villains. He's the standard we never can and probably never will emulate. Jon is IMO the right mix, a little too forgiving and conciliatory, but he forms consensus and gets things done, focusing on One Big Thing. I think of him as a non-partisan Barack Obama. Sansa is not smart, makes bad decisions time and again, but she does learn a pretense of cooperation to survive some of the villains she's been tangled with and deliberately learns from Littlefinger. But she doesn't see that the serial-murderer is actually her own family's nemesis. I don't see her as a leader, but she's a decent administrator. Arya's not political, but she is such a PRAGMATIST! "Every hurt is a lesson. every lesson makes you better". She adapts her identity, gender, behavior, associations etc. not just to survive but to learn. Even before Braavos she saw through people like glass. I suspect she wanted to shed her pain but never her identity , which Jaqen apparently wanted and expected too. The way she stealthily outwitted the Waif and Littlefinger took our breath away, even if most viewers didn't understand her ruses. She's like Odysseus, tricky and dangerous but focused on her cause.
Thank your for perceptively comparing them and also including the non-politician.
I do wish that when Jon said to Sansa "You almost sound as if you admire her," There would have been a bit more meat to the dialogue in Sansa's response. The learning a great deal comment, avoids the observation Jon is making. Sophie Turner communicates something to the audience, her moment of hesitation if one studies that beat closely they might almost hear her say "Perhaps, a part of me which I shall either excise or accept and temper does admire her."
but I woulda settled for "Perhaps part of me does." Props to Sophie for giving the audience a bit more even if the writers wouldn't.
The chapters of the Novels are told through 1st person limited perspectives of specific characters If I understand correctly. Which means the answer to my question might exist. Are the novels far enough into their narrative to have portrayed this meeting? If so whose perspective was it told from, if not from which of the Stark children's perspectives (including Jon) would you most like to read through in each of the Stark reunions?
LagiNaLangAko23 Sansa is basically 4 different characters now
LagiNaLangAko23 Sansa going to castle black is alys karastark. Theon giving advices to Stannis is given to Sansa. The pink letter and the BOTB and season 7 preparing food for the winter and northern lords and politics is all Jon’s ADWD arc basically when we get see every thing he has learnt is given to her. And we all know the Jeyne Poole storyline she was given.
Another great video 😆
"I'm not gonna swear an oath I can't uphold... When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything."
Great line!
The lone wolf die, but the pack survive.
I love how SP create videos like this.
Arya doesn't give two shits about honor. Her sole motivator is vengeance.
Chiara Fattore That's what I was thinking. She's bloodthirsty and wild like her uncle Brandon, a Stark with an even shorter temper than Robert Baratheon.
I hate when people make Arya out to be this one side, one dimensional character when she’s not! Yes she is hardened by vengeance and justice but she loves her family and honor them! When she found out Jon was king in the north and alive she dropped her six year plan to kill Cersie and straight went home to help protect them! Arya has honor and she’s very humble!
@@indeyawillis4608 I agree, people are really hard on Arya but I don't think she's one dimensional at all! She went through a freaking TON of trauma and loss very early in life, and didn't really have any healthy avenues by which to cope with it. So yes, not saying her turning to vengeance to the point where she had gotten away from her humanity a bit was a good thing, but it's understandable given the circumstances, and she only ever focused that vengeance on the people who had directly caused her and her loved ones such pain.
She's not a psychopath, nor mentally unstable. She always maintained a great deal of empathy for the innocent. Even when she decimated House Frey, it was made clear that she only included those who she knew were involved in the Red Wedding, and presumably made a pointed effort to avoid harming any innocents who might happen to be there.
So yes, her experiences made her very very ruthless over time, but only toward the people who genuinely deserved it, and who she KNEW for sure genuinely deserved it. She's definitely the most morally grey of the Starks, but still clearly has a perfectly well functioning moral compass and heart.
7:16 lolololol You get it guys??! "Coming into his own" ha!
Sansa and Arya have also lost alot too. John is probably the best middle ground.
I appreciate how well written your videos are!
Keep it up!
Thank you! We appreciate that
Can't wait for little finger vs Varys !
Coming soon!
4:14 i instantly responsed "pride? fook my pride" lmao
I'm overly hyped for the next video but that one was a little under was you've done before. But Sansa is definitely the best of the 3 in the long run, although I wish you did a character analysis of Arya
Incredible analysis! I completely overlooked Sansa was learning.
I agree with everyone else about giving Sansa the credit she deserves in GOT
This is incredible!
Subscribed immediately
OMG! VARYS vs BAELISH cant wait!!!
5:49 Cersi says Starks son, but not Bastard. Finally
There's no difference between Jon and Ned, Jon is just luckier or better protected by plot armor, he's done a lot of stupid things and gotten away with all of them, I mean the dude died and learned nothing from his death, how much dumber can a person be??
another dumbass who didn't read the books and didn't put any attention to the first seasons
glorilol 95 were not watching a video on the books, neck beard.
+theSuperNats the show is based on the books and will have the same ending and major events you dumb fuck so i will keep mentioning them and i was also mentionning the show but the this dumbass saw it in a one dimentional way
he died and realized that released him from his vow. how many other folks in westoros ever used a honor system legal loop hole like that?
Ya, Ned would have lived with the wildlings and pretended to be their friend.
And he did alot of mistakes and literally died.
As far as learning from his death is considered what exactly did you want him to learn ?
Another intriguing analysis. Great job. It was entertaining to listen and watch.
Thanks so much!
When did Sansa really have the same honor as any of her family? From what I've seen, she has the least amount of honor of any Stark. She dont didn't even mention the knights of the Vale to Jon when he straight out asked her where to get more men or before the actual battle. She seems to be more concerned about playing Littlefinger's and Cersei's games to truly see the bigger threat.
Impressive, I had no idea this would be so good. Brilliant tbh.
Thanks for making it!
I'm so checking out all of your similar GoT videos right now lol
Please make about tywin, cersei and tyrion ideology too.
Just found this channel. Will watch all of these.
Sansa😍😍😍 I enjoy her scenes a lot:)
Thank you. This was a really good video and actually quite affirming to some of us who genuinely believe in honor. Also nice to see a video partially about the latest season that isn't damning it.
I never asked for it...but I accepted it cause it's my home
This video shows proof that the Stark's are the greatest overall family in Westeros
LagiNaLangAko23 well I respect your opinion but that's still kinda proof that the Stark's are the better family cause they survive and persevere.
Sansa Stark, First of her name, Liberator of winterfell, Queen of the 7 kingdoms.
Ahh😩😭💙my House, my🐺pack 🙌🏽 gets me the feels💯everytime. I Love this soo soo much! Seeing how the honorable Ned Stark, tho gone, shaped this children beliefs, ideologies and philosophies to the person or people that they became: is truly amazing, watching the pack come together and rally, preparing for the Long winter, just awesome. Can’t wait to see more breakdown like this, the best player against to best opponent. Fantastic job as always screenprism !! Keep up the great work!!
Thank you!
Do Daenerys and Jon as well! :)
Love your channel! I just binge watched your Game of Thrones Playlist, very well put together. Keep up the awesome content. You earned a subscriber!
Sansa!!!
YES. Love this. Sansa and Arya retain their core values of honor and family, but actually know how to play the Game of Thrones.