A long dive into Guntrip's ideas regarding the schizoid personality and psychotherapy the image used in the thumbnail comes from the following website: www.amorrortue...
Thank you for this. I’m schizoid and have been contemplating my condition for many years. I’ve read most of the academic literature and as I told Schizoid Vision on one of her videos, you really capture the true, essential inner nature of schizoid dynamics. This is much needed because the DSM or Wikipedia articles seem to only focus on the most extreme version of SPD. I hope your video and work spread awareness among the psychological community for those of us in the middle of the schizoid bell curve 🙌
Thank you for sharing your experience and your kind words. I fully agree with you. It is a shame that this personality is so poorly understood even by mental health professionals. But I do feel as a clinician that the schizoid conditions give important and necessary insights. Anyway thanks again and take care 👋
Appreciate your humility, and also, I have not read the texts myself, it seems like you are concerned with presenting a support, balanced view and I appreciate that. Thank you.
Thank you for your kind comment it means a lot to me. I do try my best to give an overview of the subject. Also, Harry Guntrip's aren't widely available quite the opposite so it is normal not have been able to read them yourself also there quite long the process is lengthy. In any thank you and have a wonderful day/night.
That was a fantastic introduction, thank you for sharing your ideas :) I was wondering what your thoughts are on the concept of Libido tho? I was really delighted that you brought up narcissism because i felt like the schizoid phenomena would classify for what Freud refered to as narcissism at the end of his lectures on psychoanalysis. But as much as i enjoyed Freuds theory i still have Problems wrapping my head around the concept of Libido. Freuds concept of narcissism only seems to work if we accept the mechanism of object cathexis (which i do at least metaphorical). I suppose of course, that libido isn't a ominous energy form flowing in the metaphorical space of psyche, but more an "as-if" model to explain intrapsychic phenomena(i. e. I don't believe that "libido" has a ontological status outside of our descriptions of psychological phenomena, but i could be wrong about that). I was just wondering ehat you as a professional think about theories that necessitate the postulation of Libido (at least as an "as-if")? And are you aware of any substitute concepts for libido, i was somewhat suprised that cognitive psychology doesn't seem to ever have come up with a more modern term, which somewhat lends even more credibility to Freud if you ask me, but maybe the cognitivst can theorize completely without cathexis and stuff like that which would be quite impressive. Or maybe attachment as such can be thought without using Libido investment which means that i'm just not up to date lol. Also, Freud puts the psychoses into the category of narcissism since they appearently don't produce transference either and all the object Libido is concentrated on there own world(again refering to his lectures). Here we get a somewhat strange recursion to the dsm, since the dsm clusters schizoid pd together with schizotypal pd (of course from view that ephasizes that when the behaviors of those two groups is observed from the outside it looks quite similiar i suppose, since psychoanalytical speaking i thought there was no especially psychotic element in schizoid pd but very much so in schizotypal, i'm not sure if you would agree on that tho). Anyway, this got very convoluted again, i'm sorry for that, but i seldomly get the oppurtunity to aks somebody with deep psychoanalytic knowledge and even real world experience in the clinical sector about these things, so i just can't help myself lol. Have a nice day, as always!
Hi, please feel free to ask to your hearts content :) I created this channel in part to have interesting and fruitful conversations. In regards to narcissm I agree that Guntrip's concept is quite close to Freud concept of primary narcissm ( ie self centered love ) as you were talking about in your comment ( if I understood correctly at least). I think the main difference is that for Guntrip the schizoid person 'regresses' back to a primary narcissm because of the traumatic experiences of early relationships. Because in most cases people have a dual narcissm primary and secondary ( love of others) and there seems to always be a tension between both. In regard to the idea of Libido I think more of it as force/ energy that start in biological experiences ( such as happiness during breastfeeding) and develops into a force that is going to push the individual in a certain direction ( sexually, intellectually, emotionnaly etc.) And you are also right by questioning it Clinical application because it more of a theory a metapsychology of behaviour rather than a tool for therapeutic education. But it's also one of the more abstract and interesting developments of psychoanalysis and at least for me one of it's strong points as it creates a whole system for the mind. And for cognitive based psychology( I am no expert so it might be wrong) but the goal is more about dealing with symptoms rather than finding the root causes or explaining ' irrational' behaviour. And for the schizoid it was considered as a psychotic illness because some people with schizophrenia might show some forms of schizoid behaviour or traits before triggering a psychotic episode. In these case Schizoid Personality disorder would be considered 'premorbide' as it was the first signs of the psychotic outbreak. However psychoanalysis has broadened the scope of the schizoid defenses. And for schizotypal it is considered to be diagnosis that is connected to psychosis but the person might not have hallucinations or delusion per se but bizarre beliefs. Anyway Your are more than welcome !
I can't catch the flow of your lengthy comment, sorry. However, you asked about clarity on the topic of libido. I read somewhere yesterday (Fairbairn's object relations theory?) that libido is ENERGY. electric as in universal energy? IDK. It sounds worthy of further investigation for me, anyway. BTW, I was the female analysand for a psychiatrist in training during the mid 70's. I finally terminated myself after 8+ years of 5/5 couch work. We didn't get close to the crux of my dysfunctional childhood. I became my own psychoanalyst decades later. I dismantled my dysfunctional parental family...which has brought me to inner wholeness - a state of being that I've never seen/heard shared online from any Freudian analysand. Why not?
Self sufficiency is a defense against dependency 💯 I learned this in early childhood. What a useful video. Gumdrop is another relevant psychoanalyst squeezed out by classical Freudians 💜
Thank you for your comment and insights. It true that it is a shame that Guntrip's theories aren't better known. As the psychoanalytic community could benefit from those ideas.
@@talkingpsychology The only psychologist A psychologist who continually introduces many men and women who develop psychological hypothetical theories is Prof Sam Vaknin. He has many exciting theories that turn classical psychoanalysis upside down. Have you listened to him on UA-cam?
@@bellakrinkle9381 Yes I have and he is very bright I don't deny that but for the same reason as stated in my previous comment I feel uncomfortable about him. Anyway thanks for your engagement.
Thanks for this! I wonder how the prognosis of patients with a schizoid personality organisation compares to those with a narcissistic personality organisation in therapy? Most therapists think that narcissistic patients can not really progress in therapies but reflecting on what you say, it feels as if schizoid patients have a higher chance of improvement compared to narcissistic patients when I think of the richer internal life, a deeper potential for introspection, a deep to need to connect of schizoid's. Another question is the common countertransference of therapists towards schizoid patients compared to overt narcissistic patients. It feels as if -from what I am hearing you say - therapists could feel in the presence of a detached child in urgent need for connection that could trigger more paternal/maternal feelings (wanting to help, connect, 'hold' the patient) compared to being in the presence of a grandiose narcissistic patient that could feel like an entitled child constantly asking for attention that could be a turn off for the therapist. I know these are overgeneralisations but I wanted to get an overview.
Great questions! so in my clinical experience prognosis for schizoid patients are on the whole more favourable than narcissistic patients. However treatment of the schizoid individual is still full of challenges. One being the establishment of a secure and trusting relationship ( which given their experiences can take far longer than other patients) and the main others is for them to allow the therapist to have acces to their in world and vulnerabilities. In regards to counter-transference I would say it is quite varied and what I have see is a lot of feelings of boredom and sleepiness as the therapist is experiencing ( through projective identification) the state of dissociation between events and feelings that occurs in the schizoid phenomena. Also I have heard colleagues say that they want to 'shake things up' when dealing why schizoid patients as if they had to create a connection between inside the psyche of the patient to the external world. And lastly I tend to feel at the beginning as if I was walking on thin ice, with the dread that one wrong move could destroy the therapeutic relationship. And in a second phase I feel very concerned about them and also a lot of care ( just like a maternal impulse) and in the last phase I feel at ease with the patient enough to express my perspective freely as it comes to mind. Hope it helps!
Thank you for taking the time to summarize this useful material, and for sharing it.
You are welcome :D
This was a really good video, your insight and understanding of this topic shines through.
Thanks you for your kind words and feedback it deeply appreciated!
Thank you for this. I’m schizoid and have been contemplating my condition for many years. I’ve read most of the academic literature and as I told Schizoid Vision on one of her videos, you really capture the true, essential inner nature of schizoid dynamics. This is much needed because the DSM or Wikipedia articles seem to only focus on the most extreme version of SPD. I hope your video and work spread awareness among the psychological community for those of us in the middle of the schizoid bell curve 🙌
Thank you for sharing your experience and your kind words. I fully agree with you. It is a shame that this personality is so poorly understood even by mental health professionals. But I do feel as a clinician that the schizoid conditions give important and necessary insights. Anyway thanks again and take care 👋
It seems that most treatment modalities cannot make space for Neuro-Divergents - therefore they cannot understand us.
Sam Vaknin has focused on Schoid personality types quite thoroughly, as I recall.
Appreciate your humility, and also, I have not read the texts myself, it seems like you are concerned with presenting a support, balanced view and I appreciate that. Thank you.
Thank you for your kind comment it means a lot to me. I do try my best to give an overview of the subject. Also, Harry Guntrip's aren't widely available quite the opposite so it is normal not have been able to read them yourself also there quite long the process is lengthy. In any thank you and have a wonderful day/night.
This wasn't long at all and flew by so quick. Really enjoyed this summary of Guntrip's work. Thank you for the hard work!
@@SisypheanRoller Anytime! Thanks for your kind words!
That was a fantastic introduction, thank you for sharing your ideas :)
I was wondering what your thoughts are on the concept of Libido tho?
I was really delighted that you brought up narcissism because i felt like the schizoid phenomena would classify for what Freud refered to as narcissism at the end of his lectures on psychoanalysis. But as much as i enjoyed Freuds theory i still have Problems wrapping my head around the concept of Libido. Freuds concept of narcissism only seems to work if we accept the mechanism of object cathexis (which i do at least metaphorical). I suppose of course, that libido isn't a ominous energy form flowing in the metaphorical space of psyche, but more an "as-if" model to explain intrapsychic phenomena(i. e. I don't believe that "libido" has a ontological status outside of our descriptions of psychological phenomena, but i could be wrong about that).
I was just wondering ehat you as a professional think about theories that necessitate the postulation of Libido (at least as an "as-if")?
And are you aware of any substitute concepts for libido, i was somewhat suprised that cognitive psychology doesn't seem to ever have come up with a more modern term, which somewhat lends even more credibility to Freud if you ask me, but maybe the cognitivst can theorize completely without cathexis and stuff like that which would be quite impressive. Or maybe attachment as such can be thought without using Libido investment which means that i'm just not up to date lol.
Also, Freud puts the psychoses into the category of narcissism since they appearently don't produce transference either and all the object Libido is concentrated on there own world(again refering to his lectures). Here we get a somewhat strange recursion to the dsm, since the dsm clusters schizoid pd together with schizotypal pd (of course from view that ephasizes that when the behaviors of those two groups is observed from the outside it looks quite similiar i suppose, since psychoanalytical speaking i thought there was no especially psychotic element in schizoid pd but very much so in schizotypal, i'm not sure if you would agree on that tho). Anyway, this got very convoluted again, i'm sorry for that, but i seldomly get the oppurtunity to aks somebody with deep psychoanalytic knowledge and even real world experience in the clinical sector about these things, so i just can't help myself lol.
Have a nice day, as always!
Hi, please feel free to ask to your hearts content :) I created this channel in part to have interesting and fruitful conversations. In regards to narcissm I agree that Guntrip's concept is quite close to Freud concept of primary narcissm ( ie self centered love ) as you were talking about in your comment ( if I understood correctly at least). I think the main difference is that for Guntrip the schizoid person 'regresses' back to a primary narcissm because of the traumatic experiences of early relationships. Because in most cases people have a dual narcissm primary and secondary ( love of others) and there seems to always be a tension between both.
In regard to the idea of Libido I think more of it as force/ energy that start in biological experiences ( such as happiness during breastfeeding) and develops into a force that is going to push the individual in a certain direction ( sexually, intellectually, emotionnaly etc.) And you are also right by questioning it Clinical application because it more of a theory a metapsychology of behaviour rather than a tool for therapeutic education. But it's also one of the more abstract and interesting developments of psychoanalysis and at least for me one of it's strong points as it creates a whole system for the mind. And for cognitive based psychology( I am no expert so it might be wrong) but the goal is more about dealing with symptoms rather than finding the root causes or explaining ' irrational' behaviour.
And for the schizoid it was considered as a psychotic illness because some people with schizophrenia might show some forms of schizoid behaviour or traits before triggering a psychotic episode. In these case Schizoid Personality disorder would be considered 'premorbide' as it was the first signs of the psychotic outbreak. However psychoanalysis has broadened the scope of the schizoid defenses. And for schizotypal it is considered to be diagnosis that is connected to psychosis but the person might not have hallucinations or delusion per se but bizarre beliefs. Anyway Your are more than welcome !
@@talkingpsychology thank you, very helpful!
I can't catch the flow of your lengthy comment, sorry. However, you asked about clarity on the topic of libido. I read somewhere yesterday (Fairbairn's object relations theory?) that libido is ENERGY. electric as in universal energy? IDK.
It sounds worthy of further investigation for me, anyway.
BTW, I was the female analysand for a psychiatrist in training during the mid 70's. I finally terminated myself after 8+ years of 5/5 couch work. We didn't get close to the crux of my dysfunctional childhood. I became my own psychoanalyst decades later. I dismantled my dysfunctional parental family...which has brought me to inner wholeness - a state of being that I've never seen/heard shared online from any Freudian analysand. Why not?
Self sufficiency is a defense against dependency 💯 I learned this in early childhood.
What a useful video. Gumdrop is another relevant psychoanalyst squeezed out by classical Freudians 💜
Thank you for your comment and insights. It true that it is a shame that Guntrip's theories aren't better known. As the psychoanalytic community could benefit from those ideas.
@@talkingpsychology The only psychologist
A psychologist who continually introduces many men and women who develop psychological hypothetical theories is Prof Sam Vaknin. He has many exciting theories that turn classical psychoanalysis upside down. Have you listened to him on UA-cam?
@@bellakrinkle9381
Yes I have and he is very bright I don't deny that but for the same reason as stated in my previous comment I feel uncomfortable about him. Anyway thanks for your engagement.
Thanks for this! I wonder how the prognosis of patients with a schizoid personality organisation compares to those with a narcissistic personality organisation in therapy? Most therapists think that narcissistic patients can not really progress in therapies but reflecting on what you say, it feels as if schizoid patients have a higher chance of improvement compared to narcissistic patients when I think of the richer internal life, a deeper potential for introspection, a deep to need to connect of schizoid's. Another question is the common countertransference of therapists towards schizoid patients compared to overt narcissistic patients. It feels as if -from what I am hearing you say - therapists could feel in the presence of a detached child in urgent need for connection that could trigger more paternal/maternal feelings (wanting to help, connect, 'hold' the patient) compared to being in the presence of a grandiose narcissistic patient that could feel like an entitled child constantly asking for attention that could be a turn off for the therapist. I know these are overgeneralisations but I wanted to get an overview.
Great questions! so in my clinical experience prognosis for schizoid patients are on the whole more favourable than narcissistic patients. However treatment of the schizoid individual is still full of challenges. One being the establishment of a secure and trusting relationship ( which given their experiences can take far longer than other patients) and the main others is for them to allow the therapist to have acces to their in world and vulnerabilities. In regards to counter-transference I would say it is quite varied and what I have see is a lot of feelings of boredom and sleepiness as the therapist is experiencing ( through projective identification) the state of dissociation between events and feelings that occurs in the schizoid phenomena. Also I have heard colleagues say that they want to 'shake things up' when dealing why schizoid patients as if they had to create a connection between inside the psyche of the patient to the external world. And lastly I tend to feel at the beginning as if I was walking on thin ice, with the dread that one wrong move could destroy the therapeutic relationship. And in a second phase I feel very concerned about them and also a lot of care ( just like a maternal impulse) and in the last phase I feel at ease with the patient enough to express my perspective freely as it comes to mind. Hope it helps!
thanks so much for the detailed answer! Sounds like immense psychological work on the part of the therapist ass well.
Yes often patients who have suffered early on in their lives require more thought and adaptation from the therapist than the more 'neurotic' patients.
Guntrip would be more in line with “narcissistic libido” Sam Vaknin calls it “self supply”.. an auto eroticism. 😊