Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | AGOT Jon III | Breakdown & Analysis
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Breakdown and Analysis of chapter nineteen in book 1 of the A Song of Ice and Fire Series, A Game of Thrones: AGOT Jon III.
Theories and analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire using text evidence and quotes from George RR Martin.
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I was so happy for Jon when he found out Bran was alive, was smiling like an idiot. You really root for the kid
Heard somewhere Benjen found out Jon was going into the Stewards to be groomed for Lord Commander by Mormont OVER him. That’s when he decided to desert. He hated Jon. Heard Benjen hid Lyanna and Rhaegar at Winterfell and that’s why he was sent to the Wall, and resentment was why he tricked then turned on Jon. Wait that was you guys!!!
Interesting theory, which video did they say that? I'd love to hear that theory!
Agreed! There’s definitely an element of jealously- I think Ben low key hates jon for what he represents, for his high trajectory, and for what he thinks of as ill gotten gains. There’s a lot of nastiness in Ben
That’s our benjen video
I did interpret that Jon had some kind of vision, it is established to the reader that magic is real by this point, but Jon misunderstands it.
Reading for the first time, because we didn't know much about the Others, I assumed Ben was injured and taken somewhere.
Also, interestingly enough, I had always interpreted the Sansa comment as her refering to him as her half-brother, because it is kinder and more tactfull than saying bastard and that she was at least trying to be civil and courteous, a little lady, earnestly or no.
I know you guys (and many here) aren't in favor of R+L=J, and this comment isn't to ignite a debate about that; however, if R+L=J turns out to be true, one of the things I most anticipate about it is Ser Alliser's reaction to Jon going forward given that Alliser was a Targaryen loyalist in the rebellion. Would Alliser's hatred for Jon deepen due to House Targaryen's failures- which led to Alliser's placement at the Wall- or, would Alliser pivot from being Jon's foremost nemesis to one of Jon's biggest supporters because he never renounced the old ways?
Again, I'm not looking to relitigate any Jon Snow paternity theory; just pointing out an interesting potential plot point of one since Ser Alliser is featured in this chapter and we can see how intense his hatred for Jon is. Awesome video as always guys.
I'm loving these chapter breakdowns
Always enjoyed this chapter, especailly Donal noy humbling jon. Great video again guys
A glaring disparity between show Jon and Book Jon. None of my friends understand why I hated show Jon until they read the books.
I'm curious how order is maintained at the wall. If it's all criminals being sent up there, you'd think there would be desertions, riots, mutinies every week. It's basically a prison where none of the convicts are in chains. They're given weapons. Other than the mutiny at Craster's Keep, there's nothing but brotherhood and comeraderie up there.
Not everyone there hates one another. Most were the losers in war and would actually like one another like Alister and his group or when blood Raven took his loyal men to the wall as they decided to go and the moment they dessert the nights watch they will die.
It's more complicated than just criminals as we see gren pip and Sam at the wall and aren't really bad guys just ones in bad situations.
Same with the builders rangers and other groups they have factions but not really any hatred for one another.
Plus they do go down the the town to find a lady for the night and the nights watch just let's it happen so like real life the whole wall situation is more complex than it would go to show. I mean plus the old bear is there and if a mutiny happened then Ned would immediately hear about it same with the mormant and come deliver justice in normal times.
Hope everyone had a good Easter. Also it's funny how the Stark's who stayed in winterfell are the bitter or selfish ones in benjen and lyanna while the ones who got to know southern people are much more honorable and will defend the family even Brandon who was a womenizer who rushes to save his sister over getting married to cat while Ned is Ned.
I don't think benjen is dead as I'm sure he has something later to do but it would be hilarious if he got himself killed from being angry at Jon. He isn't cold hands so I hope we can actually see what he is doing and possibly see bran meet him and benjen gets angry at another stark child who is better than him being a green seer while Jon was Lord commander.
Anyway super excited as I love a lot of the side characters who teach Jon the ropes and help him get adjusted to his new life compared to benjen who forced him there.
It makes them appear more human unfortunately their enemies took advantage of that
@@wolfsbanealphas617 honestly they get lucky in the narrative. Robert dying any later would have ended the Lannister reign same as the red wedding needing to go and ruin any chance at roose who should be smarter Bolton from taking the north and risking another war.
George is a great writer but even his story has that 1 and a million chance needing to line up things to get to an end point.
Yes Ned was destroyed for his mercy. Robb destroyed for defending his wife's honor.
@@AMAubert Rob was more his fault while Ned had a good plan if not for Robert dying right before. That was lucky happenstance
I've always kinda thought Ned definitely sent Benjen to the wall, but it seems kinda suggestive in that Cat chapter when her and Lewyn set Jon up that perhaps Cat ratted Ben out as the one who told her Ashara's name. Gossip was happening sure but would she have acted on gossip? doesn't really seem like it, but she most definitely would have acted on someone specifically someone significant saying something to her. And from Cat's brain who were at her arrival in Winterfell the biggest threats to her her son's inheritance: Jon and Ben (by no means is Ben outta the line of succession at that time and it's very shocking for Ned to even send him to the wall), and then Cat had that line about no matter what Ned refused to send Jon away (leaving it unsaid he sent Ben away). Ben seems shity to Jon sure but it's possible he views it as because of Jon he got sent to the wall and might explain some of his behavior towards Jon. 🤷♀️ don't agree with it but it certainly would explain his attitude towards him.
Man the andals keep screwing over the targs and Stark’s divide and conquer
EXACTLY....I thought the same thing,since Howland AND Benjen were at Harrenhal at the tourney of the false spring to be aware of Ned &Ashara being smitten with each other( Brandon and Lyanna both dead now) and Benjen goes to wall,no sight of Howland...and there's talk of Ned besting Arthur Dayne in single combat...WHO would've been there at TOJ to see that? Howland. I think Cat told on Benjen and Howland. She wanted no friends around her new husband,and no brother heir.
@@conniesuper9892 andals divide and conquer strategy
Jon older than rob= Mind blown idk how many times I read over that
Your analysis and the annotations has changed my thoughts on the nights watch. Thanks OGH
Always look forward to these!
I really like how here George shows us that people can be in a bad position and mistreated (carrying a bastard’s name) and yet in certain ways privileged (son of a great lord that grew up as such). Love the intersectionality. Layers 👏🏻
I think that these weird moments between Jon and Ben can be explained by Ben knowing that Jon is a Targaryen. Ben is pushing Jon away because he has been tasked with telling Jon who he actually is after he has taken the black and has forsaken his right to the throne. Ben either feels bad about taking part in this plan (even though it is probably the best way to keep Jon safe) so he is pushing Jon away before he tells him so he does not have to handle the guilt. I also think this being the case pairs well with Ben telling Jon that they need to talk when he gets back.
It is very possible that part of the reason the other boys like him after this is because they think part of the reason Jon was so mean to them was because he was worried/mourning his brother. That is something most if not all of them would understand. And is something that would cause a person to act differently then they otherwise would.
It likely still took time and work for the other boys to forgive him. However the worry over Bran and Jon's joy of hearing good news likely helped them forgive.
That's always been my headcanon. Yes, the advice did make him think and he probably would have tried to put it into action anyway... but the open joy Jon showed at his brother's recovery helped humanize him in the other boys' eyes. It also helped Jon himself become emotionally available to new friendships.
Adding one of the funny things Jon has said
Alliser Thorne overheard him “Lord Snow wants to take my place now.” He sneered. “I’d have an easier time teaching a wolf to juggle than you training this aurochs.”
“I’ll take that wager, Ser Alliser,” Jon said, “I’d love to see Ghost juggle.”
John being older than rob definitely lends credence to the n+a theory ( in my opinion)
Jon is older than Rob… Great catch there! 👍🍻
So good! I could have listened for hours! Great job 👏
Great analysis! Given Thorne is such a incompetent master of arms and he is the only one teaching most of the recruits do you still think you have to be Arthur Dayne to defeat someone who fights three recruits at a time during training? You make a great deal of this line to show how good Jon is and use this as a vital piece of evidence, but among the blind the one-eyed is a king. Is it that impressive to fight three guys whose only teacher was incompetent?
I've listened to all these breakdowns and I disagree for the first time with Alistair Thorne analysis. Yes he is incompetent but I don't think he is stupid at all. Just bitter and resentful.
Think of how you would feel in his situation. You fight In a war on the losing side, committing no crimes that we know of and get sent off to the end of the earth to freeze your balls off alongside rapers, thieves and murderers. And the man who sent you there ordered a babies murder. The son of the man who sent you broke a sacred oath and slayed a king he swore to protect and was pardoned and remained in his lofty position.
I think it's a miracle Allisser didn't go completely batshit mad with rage lol.
@@irieite9666 I can understand his bitterness, although I don't think it justifies how he treats Sam. What makes me question his intelligence is that he wants the wildlings to loose, but does not see the need to explain the recruits how to fight. If he said:" I don't care whether the Wildlings or the Starks rule the North, why would I bother fighting well?", I could understand. But wanting Mance to loose and not seeing why he should teach the recruits well, seems stupid to me.
Jon is in the same position as Harry Potter was in his fifth year at Hogwarts. Both had to teach their peers how to stand their ground in combative situations and pass their education because the people who were supposed to so were too incompetent and/or lazy for the job.
Thanks for the episode. Good episode.
A small correction: Yes Jon turned 15 a fortnight before this chapter. "His name day had come and gone, unremarked, a fortnight past."
But no, Jon doesn't say or think that Robb is 14 in this chapter. Jon thinks "Most were two or three years his senior, yet not one was half the fighter Robb had been at fourteen." So Jon is comparing the other guys to a 14 year old version of Robb from memory. It doesn't mean Robb is 14 as of this chapter. In fact there would be no reason for Jon to think the "at fourteen" part if Robb was still fourteen. He would have just thought "yet not one was half the fighter Robb is."
But having said all that, you're still right that Jon is older than Robb. But ssshhhh... don't tell everybody that yet.
Thanks dave and Mary Ellen, hope you guys had a happy Easter
I’ve said this before, I’ll say it again
Jon thinks of Ned’s plan to re settle The Gift later on in the books.
Jon: hey dad I’m leaving to go join The Watch
Ned: okay.
Was there no talk about the plan to re settle the gift? If Ned had explained that he had plans for Jon “I’m planning on resettling the gift later, you can have your own keep there, etc” maybe Jon wouldn’t have joined the watch at fourteen
Again, when Robert and Ned are talking about Jaime Robert says this “Jaime was all of seventeen, Ned. Scarce more than a boy.”
Ned could have said “no joining the watch until you’re at least seventeen,”
He could have told Catelyn and Luwin the same thing. We know Ned had the power to make sure Ashara’s name was never spoken again in Winterfell, he could have done the same with talk of Jon joining The Watch: no more talking of this until Jon in seventeen
George being bad as measurements, do you think that could also be the case when he described Winterfell? I'm not stellar at measurements myself but when I read the description of the castle I thought, "Holy shit am I reading this right? It is absolutely monstrous. The upkeep must be insane. It's not an efficient castle. The show did not give this impression at all." I have seen some big castles in several European countries none of the biggest even come close. I got Attack on Titan (the anime) walls from it. I googled it afterwards and Shadiversity also made a video on UA-cam saying the same things and showed an illustration of a pretty significant castle he designed himself in a program and how large Winterfell was by comparison.
At the time I thought the reason must be the years long winter to stack snow extremely high up, but still, an army in winter besieging Winterfell would be really dumb.
Excellent. 👌🏽
Ser Endew Tarth is also a knight that’s at the wall.
Dracarys. 🐲🐲🐲🐉🐉🐉
Happy Easter to you guys, and this was another great video, tbh I'm not that into Jon (I find him boring), but this was an interesting chapter. In this one Jon really shines, always found it would have been more interesting had Sansa been stuck in Winterfell and Jon sent south to King's Landing I know that's weird, just think that with all those colourful characters seeing Jon try to survive would have made for an interesting novel or two.
That said, Jon here was definitely tricked, though the motivation of all involved is what gets me, Cat I get, she resents Jon. But Benjen and Luwin I'm not sure about.
> Such a big thing like the Wall has to be for something
Well, on the other hand the Pyramids of Egypt are quite big. And it's not that they were built for some real good reason.
Or so THEY want you to believe. Dun dun duuuuuun.....
👀
Units of measurement are not my thing either. Telling me the height/size of something means nothing to me. I can't picture it.
But also Benjen has duties and could he really ‘be’ there FOR Jon as lead ranger?
With those warm Benjen and Jon relations it feels like Benjen knows something about Jon and hates Jon for that.
Like, he thinks Jon is guilty for Lyanna's death. Or something of this sort.
Not a Benjen fan at all but to play devils advocate not giving any help, where someone can see is actually a good way to protect someone from accusations of nepotism. That said you let them know before hand that’s what you are going to do so that you don’t hurt them.
Maybe Benjin was trying to prevent John from behaving like the young lord who dies in the first chapter
🙌
Why did you guys stop making these!?
OOTGH !!!!!!!
Where do these annotations come from?
annotated i book
Is it possible that Thorne is part of the Unlikely Alliance? Yeah, he's a piece of shit, but he's a piece of shit with a couple of questions. Whenever everyone tries to debunk the 3KG theory, they bring out Thorne and the fact that he was at the Wall and would have recognized them, and that is true. They would also have been aware of his knowledge. So why didn't Thorne have an accident? Could it be his personality works as a sort of honey trap for any other malcontents who would have a grievance and might be planning trouble and see Thorne as a sympathetic ear?
The other question is why is he the master-at-arms? He's not well suited for it, and Mormont would be aware of that. But in that role he would have more contact with new recruits than any of Watch and be able to assess them, not in terms of their ability, but in terms of potential troublemakers or even moles.
If any of this is true, then when Jon sent him off ranging, he has actually sent away someone who might have sniffed out the assassination attempt.
Possible, but as a member of the unlikely alliance he should understand the importance of teaching the recruits how to fight. Thorne is a trained knight, so he should be able to teach them something. It would be possible to be a jerk and still teach them something. Why doesn't he if he is part of the alliance?
why dont you ever take op that sam is supos to be a white