I was unofficially, the first actual passenger on this train. A couple weeks ago, it was doing Sunday trials, with invited guests onboard. Right place, right time, I hopped on the train. When I got off at my stop, the guard was all sorts of flustered. “Does not compute, does not compute…malfunction”. LOL
well that's one way to do it lol... first time I've heard of a normal passenger riding on a trial train. I did hear a long while ago about someone riding on an ECS (empty coaching stock) train haha - "I got to my destination quicker than normal, it was great"
I’m pretty sure the UK’s first battery powered locomotive was built in 1837. It had the slight issue of making the driver repeatedly pass out from the acidic battery fumes, but it’s the thought that counts.
Haha, but it's like the first ever cars were electric as well. It's just the infrastructure wasn't there for charging so petrol was the obvious choice. How things have changed!
@@Andrew_dot_plsAnd there was petrol infrastructure back then? There weren't even halfway decent roads to get deliveries down to the not yet invented petrol pump. Earliest cars were fuelled a gallon at a time from containers, often sold through chemists! It's often said that the thing which really kicked ICE vehicles off was the starter motor. WWI of necessity rendered the technology a lot more robust.
LOL and just like the last one, this will just be another spark that would lead to nowhere why? The underlying UK regime is the same ineffective corrupt leaders working for fossil fuel corporations.
@@jonford6119 We are going to Milton of Crathes tomorrow.There is a very nice cafe restaurant,and I am going to see if the BEMU is there.There is a photo of it on the Google maps link.
I was Senior Buyer and Analyst for the company that built this electric train and others. The others went to USA. There were other unbelivable inovations that occoured during building this train. The original builder of this train is Vivarail, I actually wore one of their jackets to work today with pride. Ian Campbell Kelly was a great inovator at Vivarail. If you are train-person I can explain. But just look at the quality of the train. Vivarail should have been huge, I will not go into the details of what went wrong - just let me say Vivarail could have (in my opinion) been the Tesla of trains. Brilliant work that Dave and Julian have done - what a shame Vivarail was not the massive success it could have been for the UK.
Can you explain why Vivarail/GWR designed this custom shoe coupler instead of using well-understood 140-year-old overhead wires (which you can see at West Ealing station at 12:45) to recharge? Was it just to save money converting these Class 230 trains were originally London Underground D78 electric cars? Also, everyone wants to know if the trains have regenerative braking, and GWR's own press release don't say.
@@skierpage Good question! Parts of the answer were given in the video but I agree that without already knowing the history this particular point wasn't covered in detail. Yes, W Ealing is on the electrified mail line going West out of London. BUT the infrastructure you mention can't handle anywhere near the levels of current needed to recharge a train in 3 mins. On Merseyside they have a battery train that recharges from third rail, but that train only runs on battery for a few percent of it's duty cycle. The wires at West Ealing continue over the Hanwell viaduct, but well before then the line to Greenford has turned off, and that is not electricified at all. So unlike the Merseyside solution they would have to use about 10% of the journey to recharge a whole round trips worth of power ... Or the train could sit in the station at West Ealing for an hour between services, whereas the video did explain quite well that the goal was to return to service after only 3 mins after arriving. The longer term reason is more strategic. GWR has a huge number of branch lines that are similarly unelectrified, but join an electrified main line. By the time the original developers of this train had run out of money, GWR saw the tech would meet a need they have on each of those branch lines, and by then the prospects looked good that it would actually work Due to Vivarail (the original developer company) going bust, GWR was able to buy into the success without having taken the original financial risk. Happily, the development team also kept their jobs, but after the buyout the new management refocused the project on the specific needs of GWR and it's branch lines, because that's what they wanted from their rescue. Other interesting ideas that Vivarail had had, that were technically just as successful, were dropped because they didn't fit into the GWR strategy. And at least something was salvaged -- in my opinion the battery train was the tech that would have had the most impact on the climate crisis, so from an eco perspective it was a happy result too
@@skierpage regarding the braking system: it's described as "electro-reactive pneumatic". I'm not sure if that means it is partially regen, or not at all. Maybe others can help unpack that terminology?
@trueriver1950 Merseyrail have the class 777/1, a sub class of the class 777. The 777/0s being 3rd rail DC only. The 777/1s make up just seven units of the fifty three unit 777 fleet. The batteries, lithium titanate, are mounted in the same space designated for a transformer, should they be required to be dual voltage in future. So, they can be either IPEMUs, or dual voltage, but not both. As you rightly say, only a short part of their overall route from Liverpool Central to the new station at Headbolt Lane is required to run on battery, the rest of the time they draw current from the 3rd rail for both traction and battery charging purposes. The overall route being quite short, only four units are required in service to maintain a 15 minute frequency. The 777/1s do occasionally make appearances on in service on either the Southport or Ormskirk branches of Merseyrail's Northern Line.
Heabolt Lane should have been a simple third rail extension, at a fraction of the cost of the ridiculous hybrid set up they've now been lumbered with. This is all because of a blanket "no expansion" policy on third rail electrification decided by grey people hundreds of miles away. I wonder how many £millions were siphoned out of the industry in consultants' fees to complete this white elephant of a vanity project?
@@SkyeTheTimeBeast Depends on if your line is electrified and it would depend on which electrification system used, then it will depend on the TOC and route as different routes in the same TCO can use different trains.
Shame you didn't mention the team at Vivarail, whose business sadly went bust in late 2022. While GWR is to be commended for picking up the project, it was Vivarail who did the heavy lifting in getting this train concept up and running, and took the hit for the early prototype fails
The Viva rail staff kept their jobs and it's great that they did. But the folks who put money into Vivarail lost their investment. I hope they can take some feeling of pride that even if they didn't get rich their money did help move the idea of battery trains forward in a way that would not have happened without their willingness to invest in the idea. In terms on the impact on future generations their money was well spent, whatever their financial advisors say.
There seems to be a lot of negative comments on here but I believe they've all missing the greater point here. Grid connections are one of the main sticking points across the UK for most all new electrified projects. The idea of having localised battery storage fed with local renewable energy not only stabilises the grid but offers further savings by potentially lowering peak gas turbine generation and giving lower cost electricity to all of us. Great story and great video Imogen, let's hope this really takes of and we see this across all our rural networks. I live just outside Lincoln, a large city which unbelievably lies on an unelectrified branch line...
@mattevans4377 Network Rail already only buys nuclear power and is install solar panels at substations, like they have installed a 5mw solar system at Aldershot.
Marvellous. I live in Lincolnshire on the East Coast Main Line and branches, where we also have lots of bridges, thus making overhead lines hard to achieve. So, battery trains is what we need, roll them out and let's get on with it.
@ZarlanTheGreen I thought there was a safety problem with the third rail, especially as we also have a lot of unmanned level crossings, with farm and footpath access.
I'm glad we're getting good use out of old tube trains and this should be a great option for truly rural areas. But for somewhere built up we really should be electrifiying properly.
Now this trial is producing stat's they can do the sums to see for full electrification is needed, I would hope it's "total cost of ownership" is already cheaper than the diesel option ⛽
I would think in the right area instead of just a 1 MW of power for Train could have 10-20 MW system into local grid. Stabilize grid, cushion the charge/discharge amount for train over more batteries and make extra money selling electricity when prices are high.
Full electrification takes ages to design, plan and implement plus is fairly expensive. The UK south western bound lines (which GWR operate directly and via SWR) is only partially electrified, with the 80 mile line from London to Bristol having been stop and go for nearly 30 years, was eventually started in 2009 completed 8 years later at a cost of £7b (including some branch line upgrades into Walse and southern-England). The main rail links from London the far south-west of the UK remain unelectrified for most of their run, werre built nearly 160 years ago, and include a number of additonal branch lines. The terrain and routes (many tunnels, hills, cuttings) would be very expensive to upgrade. Currently diesel electric trains run on the more southernly line (West of England main line), and hybrid diesel + electric trains on the London to south-west via Bristol (Great Western main line). Running pentograph lines or third-rails along these locations would be expensive, difficult and highly disruptive to what are two fairly busy main lines. If instead the train itself can be electrified, which charging at intermediary main stations (of which there are many, as well as minor stations) alone the route would likely be a much more cost effective solution. One that offer additional resilience as some areas in the regions are known to flood and high winds, which would effect third-rail solutions and pentograph solutions, the trains will be able to continue running past areas without power to the next charge pickup points. Similarly, there are many smaller trunk and branch lines criss-crossing the UK, that would also be expensive and time consuming to upgrade each with their own unique needs - having battery powered trains on these lines, particuarly ones supported by local solar/wind/off-peak grid connections would speed up the electrification of the whole rail network in the UK.
This has been a hot topic for along time. The reason there are so many lines down between Peterboroigh and Kings Cross is down to buying the cheapest overhead lines. This was a serious problem all through the 90's. They are cheaping out wherever possible because the government is not prepared to make real investment into rail... HS2 remind you of anything?
I love the passion and knowledge of everyone (except me, it seems) commenting here - they all know a very great deal about trains! I know next to nothing, and am happy in my ignorance, but enjoy using them; I don't care a jott about them as long as they get me from A to B reliably, speedily and comfortably.
Battery trains are a good idea for unnelectrified branch lines that run on diesel as it would electrify the line quicker and cheaper than install overhand pickup lines via pantograph or third rail via running shoe.
Trains with batteries onboard are also a good idea for covering a gap in overhead or third rail systems. In these use cases the train usually picks up power while moving along, but when it reaches a gap it runs on the battery power, and recharges the onboard battery when it gets to the end of the gap. Clearly that is a different kind of battery train to this one: the batteries can be smaller, and don't need lineside storage as they are recharged from the normal running current whenever it's available. Use cases: - tunnels where the civil engineering to usual overhead wiring is prohibitively expensive - container yards, where there has to be a gap in overhead wiring to allow the containers in and off. At present this either involves use of a diesel shunter, or complicated movements to allow the train to be pushed/pulled under the crane without the electric loco also going underneath. - historic railway architecture, such as the viaduct near Bath, where local people, listed buildings regs, and English Heritage strongly oppose the (alleged) spoiling of the historic architecture with overhead wiring. - extending an existing electrified service without needing more wires/third rail. This was fine by Merseyrail for the extension to Headbolt. Unlike the fat charge system, the batteries are slowly recharged from the running current while the train follows the rest of its service route visiting all the other stations on the line. What's different here is the fast charging scheme. As well as being a game changer for the kind of shuttle service been West Ealing and Greenford, this success also makes it more feasible to put money into making batteries to cover gaps into a real thing.
@@trueriver1950Your last point is exactly what is happening in Ireland. Irish Rail put a big order for a fleet of battery trains, they will run on the existing electrified tracks around Dublin and then switch to battery to run on non electrified tracks around Dublin for up to 40km from Dublin. Greatly increasing the range, frequency and capacity of Dublins commuter rail network. They do plan to eventually electrify those tracks, but it will take years longer because of complex bridges, etc. They can then take the batteries off the train and use them as line side battery storage systems. First trains of the new fleet just arrived in the last few weeks and are starting testing soon. All very clever.
@@trueriver1950 Another benefit is peak shaving for the load from the trains themselves. The trains will consume a vast amount of power to get going but relatively little to maintain their speed. It's possible to split the load between the overhead line and batteries to limit the peak current that the overhead cables have to carry which would let you use thinner cables.
Actually I think Merseyrail were first. The Headbolt Lane station on the Kirkby leg of the Northern line was built beyond the termination of the third-rail network, and they didn't want to extend it. Trains on that line now all have batteries on board so they can run to that station, and have been since October 2023.
First in recent times. As others have commented, battery electric trains (with lead acid batteries) were a thing briefly in Victorian times. This is the rebirth rather than the birth of the idea.
@@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire Annoyingly some for minor equipment reasons such as the door failures, cameras so the drivers can't see the doors, the moving step that extends prior to the door opening having problems. It's not unusual to be on a train and see at least one door labelled not in use. Trouble is, even though it's minor equipment, it's safety related and takes a train out of service. There's also the dreaded software issues that seem to blight modern rolling stock. We still see the odd 507 showing up to cover services.
To be fair whomever wrote her script was 100% correct, but I think they were writing it about Japan, it's an easy mistake to make as the UK and Japanese rail networks are sooo similar.
In 2015 a single Class 379 Electrostar train was modified to run on electric lithium batteries with passengers on the Mayflower line, which connects Manningtree to Harwich International and other stations in Essex. This was a trial to enable charging when connected to overhead power and battery on unpowered sections. I have vague memories of tests being run on this line on or possibly before 2010.
@@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire My reply to you was deleted. The 379 did carry passengers on a scheduled hourly service. It was the first battery-electric train service even if described as experimental. Sorry if that upsets the 'Everything Electric Show'.
We have no overhead lines from York to here in Scarborough, whereas the rest of the line from York to Liverpool has overhead cables. This would be great for our line.
I'm North of Aberdeen. Electrification stops at Edinburgh. Admittedly local station saw it's last passengers in 1965, and hasn't even had track since the '70s.
There isn't overhead cable from York to Liverpool yet. It'll be live from York to Church Fenton soon- then it's diesel power to Stalybridge and then electric to Manchester Victoria and Liverpool from there!
What about the Battery electric train that operated between Aberdeen and Ballater in the late 1950's through to the mid-1960's? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_BEMU
I missed an important part: Which kind of batteries are used: It seems to be lithium titanate oxide. Low energy density, but very safe and very long life even with regularly fast charging.
The Class 230 and it’s sisters are actually the old London UndergrounD District D78 (1978) stock given a new life. The London UndergrounD trains are 4 rail trains, 2 running rails and the 2 conductor rails that provide the DC power to the trains. The inner (centre) conductor rail is the Negative, at -210V, and the outer (outside of the running rails) is the Positive, at 420V, providing the 630VDC* traction supply. *Where the 4 rail and 3 rail (third rail) trains (London Overground and British Rail) share tracks the traction voltage is 750V on the outer conductor rails and the centre rail is connected to the running rails and is at 0 Volts. Note: the Negative (or 0 Volt rail) is always in the centre but the outer Positive rail at +420V or 750V is placed on one side or the other for operational (track work points/switches etc,) and furthest away from platform edges at stations. When it comes to battery charging the Class 230 batteries becomes a 4 rail train as it was when on the District Line of the London UndergrounD with Positive and Negative conductor shoes. A nice little nod to its past.
For a lot of stations, there should be no reason why there can't be a massive solar canopy over the tracks from platform to platform, roughly the length of the platform and or the trains servicing them. Trickle charging battery banks from these should be fairly straightforward. Also, train station solar canopies would do double duty as extra shelter for waiting passengers, hopefully encouraging greater take up of public transport in the process.
@BooBaddyBig That's true of all solar systems, irrespective of size for those who are located in areas that experience less sun outside of summer. But it should also be remembered that solar technology is actually more efficient in cooler weather and all that is actually required for energy production is light. Recent developments in solar technology has produced panels that will respond to starlight.
@@pinkelephants1421 Yeah, but there's not nearly enough starlight to drive trains for any practical size of solar panel array. Still, having trains being net low carbon over the year is probably a good idea with few downsides. Still, we have solar panels here, and during the winter they are pretty shit and often give near zero output. So it wouldn't change the size of the grid connection required, but it may be able to reverse the power flow during the summer.
@BooBaddyBig I didn't mean that starlight would be sufficient to power trains, of course not. It was a means of pointing out how solar technology is evolving. Solar does produce more electricity than you give it credit for in a UK winter; multimillion pound investments in grid scale solar aren't done for the fun of it & there's PLENTY of new such projects seeking either planning permission or about to commence as soon as they can get a grid connection.
What an utterly fantastic video (or series of videos, as it were)! So good to see the electrification of passenger rail. Brilliant work as always, Imogen.
I don't remember hearing anything about regenerative braking. Was still very impressed with the range with such a small battery, considering the weight of the train.
@@alanhat5252 London Underground doesn't use batteries though. They'd have to use some sort of grid-tied inverter in the train to export power back to the grid. Dumping DC power back into a battery is much easier.
@@robinbennett5994 At least the Dutch Railways already employ regenerative braking, exporting the power to other trains currently on the net. So it's already a thing. Just a fyi. Of course not relevant to this video, as it's a disconnected battery train. Regen should be even easier though.
This is bloody amazing! Absolutely fantastic and congratulations to everyone involved. I'd love to see the economics of this for regional rail electrification here in Australia!
This is amazing progress... if we could apply this technology to rural areas where trains are often trundling past at the end of peoples then it should make a big difference in air quality. Imagin going to a big city station and not seeing any dirty soot or fuel stains all over the place. And there's the added benefit of if the station looks clean, people's behaviours change, and they'll keep it clean.
I agree, but sadly they would title it "The hidden dangers of battery Electric Trains" in order to get views. They'd report the good for 25% of the time then have some anti-battery campaigner banging on about the virtues of diesel for 'balance'.
@@grahamcollins6810 So what you are saying is that the mainstream media actually leans heavily to the right and not, as is constantly spewed by people with low IQs, to the liberal lefty left liberal side?
Great episode to see a project from it's infancy, though implementation, to full deployment! It is priceless to see Imogen so excited about charging shoes after 18 months of waiting :) I am traveling to London next week and might see this cool e-train
Everyone likes a big button to sound a train horn and the smile says it all 😀 Good to know we can still invent and build stuff. These short pieces should be on mainstream media.
It is not in fact Britain's first battery train. In 1958 a battery powered train ran between Aberdeen and Ballater, a line around 42 miles in length. The project was jointly carried out between British Railways Scottish Region and the North of Scotland Hydro electric board. It ran for four years, doing up to a couple of trips daily in each direction, and was notably quiet in operation. Unfortunately lack of interest by railway management at the time killed the project and it was replaced by a diesel multitude unit, subsequently the line itself closed. The battery multiple unit still survives and is back on a restored short section of the Deeside line at Crathes, but is not operational.
The GSR over in Ireland beat BR to it by some years. On the difficult ex-Dublin & South Eastern route, Dr. James Drumm's revolutionary fast charging Nickle-Zinc battery multiple units (in service between 1932 and 1949) were the forerunners of the (brand new) B/EMU Hybrids now entering service on the enhanced DART services around Dublin.
@@alanhat5252It lives on the Royal Deeside Railway. Although safe, it needs new batteries and a serious electrical overhaul. Formerly it did see occasional use .... as loco hauled stock. That's the same fate which befell some of the GSR Drumm units at the end of their battery life ... by which time the output from Shannon Hydro-Electric Scheme was no longer surplus capacity! Oddly, the Royal Deeside's website doesn't trumpet this unique unit's presence.
@@TheHoveHeretic The Deeside BEMU hasn’t been used as hauled stock for many years, it is now out of use stored at West Lodge near Banchory. It can be viewed easily enough from the adjacent A93.
I'm sure this has been tried before in the UK.In the late 50s battery electric trains were tried between Aberdeen and Ballater,before Beeching chopped the line.
@@rolandharmer6402I believe one of the Battery Multiple Units is being restored at Deeside Railway.They run a short section of the original rail line between Crathes and Banchory.Maybe Fully Charged could have a look at the great grandad of this new train.
@@rolandharmer6402 There is a small section of preserved track between Milton of Crathes and Banchory.They do heritage runs and some steam days.I think they may have an original BEMU being restored there,but not sure . Reading up on the project it was powered by Hydro Electricity at the price of 3 farthings a unit.Changed days.😊
@@johnmcconville6055 The one & only BR BEMU returned to Deeside in 2001. It had been restored to working order at the East Lancs Railway, operating between Bury & Rawtenstall on special occasions. At that time it belonged to the West Yorkshire Transport Museum. Following the closure of that project, the assets were sold off, in losing the BEMU to the Royal Deeside Railway Preservation Society. The founder members of that group were keen to see it return to Deeside, many people remembering it in use between Aberdeen & Ballater. Alas, by the time the BEMU returned to Deeside, the batteries were pretty much life expired. Also, the few individuals working on it moved on. As I’m not involved with this preservation scheme anymore, I have no idea what plans exist for this historic unit. A shame to see it sitting neglected, especially when a then young Prince Charles, Princess Anne & the Queen Mother travelled in it in 1958.
That old D stock TFL train was re-purposed by Viva Rail to run on the Bedford to Bletchley line. (Soon to be East West Rail). Viva rail went into administration and sold out to Great Western Rail. However it’s great to see the battery electric train concept has been kept alive and well. Considering East West Rail hasn’t electrified the line between Oxford to Cambridge, I wouldn’t be surprised if those trains re-appear on the old varsity line once EWR completes.
According to East West rail, discontinuous electrification with hybrid trains is indeed now on the agenda. Consultation has just started on it with various roadshows along the route up to mid-January '25
@@Pesmog Discontinuous electrification, has a lot of issues hence why a fair number of rail engineering's disagree with it. Discontinuous electrification, is incompatible with most electric stock. Discontinuous electrification, Leeds to future shrinking of the electrified network to save on complexity, for example in the centre of Cardiff, Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Central isn't being electrified and Discontinuous electrification is being used all because it is two complex when there is a lot more complex junctions with OLE, like approach into Manchester Piccadilly.
I am glad to see the old Vivarail trains are getting some new life. I never knew that they were going into administration, and one day I went to take a journey they normally provided, and it was a replacement bus! Thankfully the line is open again with another operator.
My understanding of the US rail systems is that commercial traffic takes precedence over passenger traffic leading to long waits while priority is given to mile long commercial trains. It throws out timetables and therefore confidence in passengers.
India is a huge and populous country ... yet they have achieved full electrification of the railways (97% so far). Perhaps the USA should be classed as a "developing" country rather than a "developed" country!
@@MrAdopado The US has the highest rates of private car ownership in the world (92%) and an amazing interstate and local road network that lets users go from wherever they are, to wherever they want to go, at any time. For longer distances, the US has hundreds of combinations of cheap and high quality air services, and private bus routes. Not having a huge public transport network is not a sign of being behind, but of being well ahead. Only the bottom 8% would disagree.
@@daleviker5884 ... just talking about whether the railways are electrified ... with an ironic comment attached! Don't get too sensitive ... USA has lots of amazing stuff but that doesn't automatically mean that it leads in every department.
Did you not bother to watch the video, the battery bank is trickle charged between each tine it's going usef to charge the train, so solar will work perfectly well 90% of the time with the grid only needing to help out occasionally & can top up at night using cheap rate electricity.
Faster than diesel that can’t reach the terminal speed. Cool! Did I miss something on regen braking? Seems obvious to me given the mass of a train. Perhaps I was sleeping awake if it was mentioned.
All modern trains are electric driven, the fossil just turns an alternator and a such all trains regrn brake just on a fossil one it goes into resistors on the roof fully electric goes into the grid and these into the battery. Not need to mention something that they been doing for nearly 100 years
Excellent. Your final comment, giving credit to GWR for seeing it all through, is right on the money. We sometimes in the UK seem to give up just before an idea reaches maturity. Well done God's Wonderful Railway for sticking with it. And well done EEShow for keeping this one on your radar. Hoping GWR will soon roll out the idea to Slough-Windsor, Maidenhead-Marlow & Twyford-Henley as well as the west country branches. With enough range it might even do Reading-Gatwick, which is already half third-rail
In fariness Vivarail was the one behind this tech. It was them who purchased the old tube stock, them who developed the shoe system (look when it's demo'd, it still had their logo on it). They sadly went bust in late 2022 when no rail company would commit to funding this technology. GWR picked up the remains cheap and just finished rolling out the demo. They've made zero commitment to using this technology anywhere outside the demo vehicle.
@@Rick-vm8bl Agreed. The idea of reusing old D78 Tube Stock, which had fundamentally sound chassis, with modernised powertrain and systems was a good one and the interior refits were done to a high standard. There were various power options, including modular diesel, 3rd rail electric and the pioneering fast-charge battery prototype. Sadly the whole project suffered from teething problems due to not having enough time to carry out proper reliability shakedown trials and many of the units were rushed into service before they really should have been. These issues affected customer confidence and combined with the funding running out before production and sales could really get going finally led to the collapse of the business. It wasn't helped either when Adrian Shooter, the inspiration and primary driver behind the Vivarail project, was struck down with MND. After that the whole thing just lost momentum. GWR just picked up the fast-charge battery train assets from the administrators for a knock-down price.
GWR has enough spare vechiles to create units for Henley-on-Thames, Marlow and Windsor branches and some Cornish Branches. The 230s are to slow for North Downs which requires 90mph units and the 230s are limited to 60mph.
Or maybe the 210 miles from Bristol to Penzance off the Great West Main Line that still isn't electrified (only the London to Bristol part is). Or indeed whole of the 200 mile West of England Main Line (London to Exerter) that isn't electrified at all (uses old diesel rolling stock scavanged from across the UK).
@GruffSillyGoat Great Western Mainline is only London to Bristol, South West Mainline is a different line which runs from London Waterloo to Weymouth with 750v DC third rail, once you get to Bristol you switch to the Bristol and Exeter Railway, then at Exeter you switch to the South Devon Railway, then at Plymouth switch to the Cornish Mainline, if you take the direct route from Reading to Taunton you go via the Berks and Hants line.
Why not use a standard pantograph or third rail shoe? That way the train could also run on already electrified lines and recharge while moving. This is how it's done in mainland Europe, where we just use the existing infrastructure for recharging and therefore can cover almost the whole network without building any new infrastructure (as most non-electrified branch lines conveniently terminate at electrified mainlines). Only in very few locations they had to build short sections of electrification (which is probably still cheaper than the bespoke system presented in the video).
The reason for the "non standard" shoe gear is becuase of the high current draw which makes there a risk regular shoes would melt. Also it using Network Rail Standard charging system.
Since 2023, the company ERIXX is operating connections in Northern Germany with Stadtler FLIRT battery multiple unit trains. They have a fleet of now 55 units. The trains have a reach of around 120 miles, a topspeed of 100mph and need 15 minutes to charge. For charging they use the german standard 15kV overhead wires. They can also use their pantograph to drive on electrified routes while charging their batteries.
@@derjost9903 The BEMUs have been withdrawn in December 2023, according to the International Railway Journal. Due to poor reliability and have been replaced by DMUs.
@@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire They are already back in service since February. Also, the issue had nothing to do with them being battery-electric, just the "normal" software problems that every new vehicle seems to have nowadays...😕(Ok, rumor has it that one was damaged because the driver forgot to switch to battery mode at the end of the catenary. But even if true I'd also count that as 'teething problems'.)
11:44 23,4km traveled, power went from 84% to 70%. 14% of 504kW battery with ~20km traveled = 3.5kW per km. 9:00 71+55 miles range. 504kW battery = 2.5kW per km. Class 230 train has a capacity of 296 passangers. 8W per km per passanger Electric bus Enviro400 does around 1.3kW per km. Capacity 100 seats. 13W per km per passanger Electric passanger car does 0.1kW per km in this low speed, 5 passangers. 20W per km per passanger It is really kind of linear :)
Awesome sauce! Both the report and the technological innovation. All diesel trains need to be retired ASAP for air quality reasons and this looks to be one of the most viable candidates to do it with! Especially since the hydrogen hype remains just that... hype!
nonsense!!!! good luck with that! these are not going to replace diesel at all! diesel is used for all kinds of rail applications from construction of the lines to maintainance to the transport of those gigantic loads from points to points.
I do think it’s important for branch lines to do this. But yeah it’s taken a long time. Japan has been doing this for years already. And they did it with a standard pantograph system to charge, which seems to me to be the best solution, because you can set up a very short section of overhead wire at a station on a non-electrified piece of track; or you can charge on electrified parts of lines before they go onto the non-electrified part. Whereas this is quite specialised.
Yes, I was wondering why they didn't go overhead, but this was not explained in the video. The overhead solution would not require tricky timing or special software.
Another comment thread on this video has a good explanation of why they went with the fast-charging rail system rather than overhead wires. Basically, it was easier and cheaper in terms of modifications to the trains and stations.
Great to see this technology coming to trains, 2 stats I'd like to know are, how many kw / mile does it use on the average journey? (I'm assuming it's more than 1 :) ) and how much power do they get back from regen braking?
Why are you happy to see a technology come to trains, that is inferior in every way, to overhead lines and third rails? (the instances where overhead lines are problematic, using a third rail solves those issues)
@@ZarlanTheGreen I see what you're saying, you'd have to do an analysis on how much power loss there is by using overhead lines and 3rd rails vs battery systems, I think they'll use this as a cheaper way to electrify local services where 3rd rail and overhead lines are less cost effective, plus you'd have to factor in the power used to make all the lines, rails and batteries etc any move to renewable energy should be a good move though
@@peterswinson326 There is no need to do an analysis, to compare things with so massive a difference. So undeniable and indisputable. It's like saying you'd need to do an analysis, to know if it'd be more nutritious to eat at McDonald's, compared to a proper and non-fast food restaurant. (or almost anywhere else)
For anyone wishing to see the battery train out and about on the Greenford branch, it will be out on mainly Thursdays & Fridays, whilst drivers are training on it for the next few months.
It's still potentially vapourware, all that GWR have done is the finishing touches to roll out the demonstrator Vivarail developed before they went bust in '22 & were bought by GWR.
A few years ago, battery conversion of older Diesel Motor Unit Railcars started in Adelaide Australia. They were turned into hybrids by removing one of the two engines, and replacing it with a battery. It is hoped that in the future a two-car-set, which used to have four engines, will be able to operate with just one. Also when these are retired, it is hoped full battery electric railcars will replace them.
Were they Diesel-electric to start with? The British ones I've traveled on seem to be rebodied road-going coaches, complete with gearboxes & propshafts.
@@alanhat5252 Yes they were, with the twin diesels driving generators to provide electricity to the bogie motors. With their new batteries, they can now take advantage of re-gen braking. In my non-expert opinion, the train shown in this video looks to be a better system. Maybe this, or something similar, could be used when our hybrids are eventually replaced. I will be watching future Fully Charged shows with interest.
@@alanhat5252 yes and no: No because in Victorian times there were several locos powered by lead acid batteries. The fumes from said batteries were not entirely healthy for the drivers. Throughout the 20th century there were sporadic attempts to build battery trains, in the UK and elsewhere. Yes because the 777/1 on Merseyside were (in my opinion at least) the first to have really got the battery tech working sufficiently well in normal operating service to count. If you are a train enthusiast it's worth taking the Merseyrail to Headbolt to see if you can notice when the train runs out of ground power and goes into batteries. Looking out of the window for the third rail is cheating!
@@alanhat5252 Lithium titanate. Around six tonnes per 777/1. It's less energy dense than some other batteries, but allows for a rapid charging. It's installed in the same location a transformer could be installed should dual voltage 777s be required in the future.
In Newcastle, Australia, they have a tram service that is battery powered with overhead pick ups at each station to top up the batteries while unloading and loading passengers, but then also in Byron Bay, New South Wales, there is a train which is operated using Solar to recharge the batteries.
@@jamesengland7461HS2 - High Speed Two - a now-abandoned project for a second high-speed line, this one connecting London through Birmingham & onto 2 branches, 1 north & the other across to the east coast
Hardly the first battery electric train in the UK. BR had a battery train in Scotland in the ‘50s or early ‘60s and the London Underground has had battery locomotives for goodness knows how long-
Great to follow the progress of this ev train, I hope we get more of them. Does it have regen breaking, that’s got to be a good way of recovering some power?
It is using electricity produced from burning wood chips import from British Columbia, the ships doing a 28,000 mile round trip (no return cargo) burning vast amounts of heavy fuel oil which, gallon for gallon, emits 3,500 times more sulphur into the atmosphere than the diesel burnt in this nightmare's predecessor. Every M.P. should be made to understand the stupidity of this thing. I hope that when we are hit by the next Winter high pressure and production of wind turbines is down to 5% of peak and the solar panels are shrouded in fog and we are facing widespread power cuts because of idiots with EVs , that they will have the good grace to withdraw this thing and the government will have the sense to ban the use of EVs whilst the Winter high persists. The alternative is not pensioners dying in the cold because of fuel prices and the Winter Fuel Allowance scandal. they won't need the Winter Fuel Allowance because they will die in the cold because there won't be any electricity.
@@terryhoath1983 According to the National Grid: " Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles - 1st August 2022 - Journey to net zero Myth 5: We’ll end up with lots of EV batteries going into landfill The lithium ion technology in our mobile phones is not dissimilar to those in an electric vehicle, but what’s different is that EVs have effective power management systems that guard the long-term health of their batteries. Most manufacturers are offering battery warranties of seven or eight years, or around 100,000 miles, but there’s a reasonable expectation that they will actually last longer than that and indeed outlive the car itself. ...it won’t end up in that landfill site, as it can either be recycled or given a second life... Even if a battery became no longer fit for use in the car it won’t end up in that landfill site, as it can either be recycled or given a second life as an energy storage unit for homes or businesses. Read more about what happens to old electric car batteries Myth 6: Electric vehicles don’t go far enough on a single charge and take a long time to charge The sweet-spot for the range of an EV is between 200 and 300 miles. This gives the optimal balance between cost and range. Most people don’t need a range of more than this; after the time it takes to drive this distance most of us need a pit stop anyway. ...when we take longer trips, most of us already do stop for 15 to 20 minutes at a service station... Statistically in the UK, the first car in a family does around 37 miles a day on average and any second car covers around 11 miles daily. In the US, the majority of households (roughly 85%) travel under 100 miles on a typical day.4 Understandably people don’t, however, buy for their average journeys - they buy for the longest ones they do. In reality, when we take longer trips, most of us already do stop for 15-20 minutes at a service station, to grab a drink, use the toilet or fill up on petrol or diesel. That would be all the time it takes to power up your EV with the new range of ultra-rapid chargers that are already available. How long does it take to charge an EV? Charging your EV can take as little as 30 minutes or up to 12 hours - it all depends on the size of the battery and the speed of the charging point. A Nissan LEAF with a 40kW battery, for example, would take around 5 hours to charge from empty with a 7kW home charging point, whereas a Polestar with a 78kW battery would take around 10 hours. A rapid charger at a motorway service station, however, could charge your car to full in about 30 minutes. The charging rate can also differ depending on the ambient temperature, the state of the battery (e.g. empty or half full) and the maximum charging rate of the vehicle. Similar to your mobile phone though, up to 80% of your charging will likely be at home, including while you’re sleeping. Myth 7: The infrastructure isn’t able to support a lot of people driving electric vehicles - especially in rural areas Currently in the US, there are almost as many EV charging ports as there are gas stations. Charging stations are constantly being added by public and private entities alike. The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law also allocates $7.5 billion for EV charging infrastructure to support continued expansion. National Grid and 60 other utilities are collaborating as part of the National Electric Highway Coalition to foster expansion of fast EV chargers along highways. In the UK, National Grid has proposed the optimum locations for adequate grid capacity to enable others to provide ultra-fast chargers, ensuring that nobody on the strategic road network (motorways and principle dual carriageways) is further than 50 driven miles from ultra-rapid charging. This will give drivers consistency, continuity and therefore confidence that their main - or only - car can be electric. Myth 8: Electric cars break down more than normal cars Electric cars are actually shown to break down less than combustion vehicles, as they have fewer moving parts. They also require less maintenance, fewer fluids and their brake systems generally last longer due to regenerative braking.5 Edmund King, president of the UK’s biggest breakdown organisation, the AA, told The Clean Energy Revolution podcast: “There is a massive misconception; 99% of people in a survey of 15,000 exaggerated by quite a lot the number of EVs that would break down from running out of charge … it’s less than 4%, and 50% of them aren't actually out of charge, they’re low on charge and maybe a little bit worried.” He continued: “The biggest reason we’re being called out for EVs [breaking down] is exactly the same as for conventional cars.” According to the National Grid: " Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles - 1st August 2022 - Journey to net zero New petrol and diesel cars will no longer be sold in the UK from 2035 and the US is aiming for half of all new vehicle sales to be electric by 2030. So, before long, it’s likely that far more of us will be behind the wheel of an electric vehicle (EV). But there are a number of concerns and misconceptions about EVs that are still making people think twice - here we address some of the most common EV myths.
@@terryhoath1983 Myth 1: The electricity grid won’t be able to handle the increase in EVs There are two aspects to whether the electricity grid can manage lots of EVs being plugged in at once: Whether enough electricity is available; and Whether the wires that carry that electricity have enough capacity to do so It’s important to remember that the shift to EVs is happening gradually - not overnight. Renewable energy sources are constantly being developed to supply us with more clean and green electricity, and we’re constantly ‘evolving’ the electricity grid to be better equipped to handle it. Will enough electricity be available to charge EVs? A main source of concern here is the scenario of all EV owners charging their EVs at the same time. So is it possible to spread out the demand, while still making sure we all get our EVs charged when we need it? With this in mind, the UK Government has introduced Electric Vehicle Smart Charge Points Regulations, which ensure that EV charge points will have smart functionality; allowing the charging to happen when there is less demand on the grid, or when more renewable (and therefore often cheaper) electricity is available. This means that no matter what time you plug in your car, it will charge when you need it but can automatically pause during those peaks when demand on the grid is highest and energy is most expensive. Similarly in the US, Smart Chargers and Time of Use Rate programmes will support balancing the load throughout the day. Does the electricity grid have enough capacity for charging EVs? The most demand for electricity in recent years in the UK was for 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency. Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we believe demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002 and this is well within the range of manageable load fluctuation. The US grid is equally capable of handling more EVs on the roads - by the time 80% of the US owns an EV, this will only translate into a 10-15% increase in electricity consumption.1 A significant amount of electricity is used to refine oil for petrol and diesel. Fully Charged’s video Volts for Oil estimates that refining 1 gallon of petrol would use around 4.5kWh of electricity - so, as we start to use less petrol or diesel cars, some of that electricity capacity could become available. According to the National Grid: " Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles - 1st August 2022 - Journey to net zero Myth 2: The electricity used to charge EVs is created by burning fossil fuels, so there are still emissions involved More and more of our electricity now comes from renewable, green or clean energy sources, and zero-carbon power in Britain’s electricity mix has grown from less than 20% in 2010 to nearly 50% in 2021. With the growth in onshore and offshore wind farms and the closure of a number of coal plants, transport is in fact now the most polluting thing the UK does as a nation. Our energy system is also becoming more flexible to maximise on this cleaner energy whenever it’s available. Apps like the WhenToPlugIn app, as well as new legislation and smart energy tariffs, are all helping us manage our electricity use - for example, Smart Chargers that can start or pause our EV charging to ensure it’s using the cleanest and cheapest power. In New England and New York, only 0.1 to 2.7% of electricity is produced from coal and oil combined2 and, as electricity continues to decarbonise, these percentages will continue to reduce. However, in just over a decade the UK's power system has been transformed: coal now generates just over 2% of the UK's electricity.
@@terryhoath1983 Myth 3: EVs are slower than petrol and diesel cars Formula E racing is a great example of just how fast EVs can go. A Formula E car can accelerate from 0-62mph in just 2.8 seconds - faster than most Ferraris. They can have a top speed of 174mph (280km/h), equivalent to travelling from London to Edinburgh in just over two hours. Definitely no issues with slowness there. For normal EVs, …top speeds aren’t really any different to other cars, but they accelerate more quickly so can ‘feel’ faster. For normal EVs outside the racing world, top speeds aren’t really any different to other cars, but they accelerate more quickly so can ‘feel’ faster. This is because you get the maximum torque (leading to acceleration) from the minute you start rolling, whereas you need to ‘rev up’ an internal combustion engine car to get maximum power and torque. Myth 4: EVs are much more expensive than petrol and diesel equivalents It’s true that products based on new technology do tend to be more expensive for early adopters. But, as they become more mainstream and volumes increase, prices typically come down - look at mobile phones for example. EV battery prices are already falling3, which helps with this. So we absolutely expect the upfront cost of new EVs to reduce over the next few years. For those looking to buy used rather than new, the current uptick of supply in new EVs will hit the second hand EVs market fairly soon. Consider the ‘whole life costs’, not just upfront prices It’s important to look not just at the initial outlay for your car but the ‘whole life cost’, which means considering its running costs and how well it retains its value. It seems that EVs are depreciating less than petrol and diesel cars, so you might well get more payback when the time comes for you to trade in or sell on. Even though EVs currently have higher purchase prices, they’re cheaper to run - costing much less than petrol or diesel, at as little as 2p per mile if you charge at the right time of day or night. EVs have fewer moving parts too, meaning they should also have lower servicing costs. Incentives may also be available to lower the price of an EV. Under the US Inflation Reduction Act, families can receive tax credits for new and used electric vehicles, saving them upwards of $1000 a year." According to transportenvironment.org "Batteries vs oil: A comparison of raw material needs T&E’s study assesses the amount of raw materials needed to make electric vehicle batteries today and in the future - taking into account changes in manufacturing processes and recycling. It compares this with the raw materials needed to run a fossil fuel car to show that electric car batteries need significantly less raw materials. The report also shows that on a systemic level Europe’s overreliance on oil imports far outweighs those of battery raw materials, helping Europe to become self-sufficient in batteries. Key findings: Electric vehicles consume far less raw material (metals) than fossil fueled cars When taking into account the recycling of the battery cell materials and that the majority of the metal content is recovered, T&E calculates how much is ‘consumed’ or ‘lost’ during the lifetime of an EV. Under the EU’s current recycling recovery rate target, around 30 kilograms of metals would be lost (i.e. not recovered). That’s about the size of a football. In contrast, the study shows that the weight of petrol or diesel that is burned during the average lifetime of a vehicle is around 300-400 times more than the total quantity of battery cells metals ‘lost’. Over its lifetime, an average ICE car burns close to 17,000 liters of petrol, which would be equivalent to a stack of oil barrels 90m high. Less raw material will be needed for batteries over time Technological advancements will drive down the amount of lithium required to make an EV battery by half over the next decade. The amount of cobalt required will drop by more than three-quarters and nickel by around a fifth. Europe will need to import less raw material because of recycling In 2035 over a fifth of the lithium and nickel, and 65% of the cobalt, needed to make a new battery could come from recycling. Europe will likely produce enough batteries to supply its own EV market as early as 2021 T&E calculates that there will be 460 GWh (in 2025) and 700 GWh (2030) of battery production in Europe - enough to meet the demand of electric cars."
@@terryhoath1983 The grid is getting cleaner and greener as more coal / gas fired power stations get replaced with renewable energy. Renewable energy is so much cheaper than burning fossil fuels that coal fired power stations are being shut down (thank heavens) in preference to renewable energy. Wind solar and battery storage plus other green renewable energy solutions like hydro and wave power etc ARE the solution to global warming. We just need to stop burning stuff #STOP BURNING STUFF Hydrogen is not the answer as we don't have the infrastructure and a lot of hydrogen is not green i.e., it is produced by the fossil fuel industry. Nuclear is not the answer as we don't have an effective way to deal with the toxic waste. Plus nuclear power stations are very slow to build - taking many years - compared to wind solar and battery storage which can be deployed in under one year. Also nuclear cost billions and is no longer competitive compared to MUCH cheaper wind solar and battery storage. Also nuclear power stations are a target for nutters like Putin as we can see now with the war in Ukraine.
How would this system work with frequent trains coming down the track? Or put another way, how many trackside batteries would be needed to provide 100% network coverage?
Have a look at the “Light Rail” or trams in Newcastle Australia. Our trams are battery/capacitor powered. When it arrives at a stop, the pantograph goes up, charges in 60 seconds, pantograph comes down and it runs on batteries in between stops… one day if they expand it outside of the city with stops far apart, it’s fully compatible of running on continual overhead wire.
The obvious problem with running trains 'online' is that their peak demands are whenever their peak demands are. UK isn't like other countries. We have colossal VRE potential in highly intermittent offshore wind, and no really good ways to meet undeferable demand. A country with huge constant power supply by nuclear reactors so dependent on Russian nuclear services that their leader tells us not to humiliate Putin, or by having humongous easily-controllable hydropower might be able to straightforwardly electrify everything, *but we're not them*. Storage - likely in many different forms - is going to play a key role in UK NetZero.
@@damiendye6623 that's a consumer application now. Doing it at national scale is a big job. Storage like Dinorwig can shift only about a half hour of energy from trough demand to peak demand and due to our best supply being wind, sometimes energy is expensive during trough too. Storing all our peak supply to use at peak demand/trough supply would require 1,000s of Dinorwigs, or some tech we seem to be strenuously dodging. Consumer batteries are a pragmatic choice in the absence of a well-advanced plan. We don't even have a whiff of a plan being started.
@@trs4uthe Labour Gov't have actually offered a whiff of a plan plus £3.5bn cash to back it up. They also mention tidal which the previous Gov't shelved for a decade or more.
And in my opinion, although the Vivarail investors lost their company, their money went to a great cause by moving the tech forward. That may not have been meant as a noble thing for them to do, but it's none the less effective in terms of addressing the climate issues.
Good to see progress being made. It provides another option with battery prices reducing and solar panels forever getting cheaper too one can see all sorts of interesting things being done.
I guess my main question is why traditional 3rd rail (which use the track itself as the other electrical connection) or overhead lines for charging, both of which are plenty adequate (>300kw) and well developed, familiar, proven-reliable technologies.
@@simhedgesrex7097 Howso? You'd still only need them at the stations where you're doing the charging. A hundred feet of third rail or overhead wire can't possibly cost more than developing an entire bespoke charging system. Maybe you misunderstood; I'm not saying they should electrify the entire line - of course that would be crazy expensive, which is why it hasn't been done yet. I'm saying use existing electrification technology to make the charging connections.
@@Smidge204 Ah, it was your use of "traditional" that threw me off. Certainly innovative overhead charging in stations is an option. I don't know why they didn't select that - certainly there are trains that do charge from overhead.
There's a national rail ban on building more third rail 750V DC infrastructure, as its viewed as too dangerous (exposed live conductors, etc). The stuff that is already there has "grandfather rights" but they don't want more of it.
I wonder about the benefit too, especially when you can see existing overhead wires at West Ealing station at 12:45. Claude-ai and Microsoft Copilot agree 25 kW says overhead wires can deliver 6-10 Megawatts thus recharging 600 kWh of batteries in as little as 3.6 minutes, so the problem isn't power delivery. And these electrified rails are so short that they can't supply power to the train while it is slowing down, nor while it is accelerating out of the station which is when it is consuming the most power. The presenter (Imogen Bhogal I think?) should have asked about this and also asked about regenerative braking. By the way, at 12:17 if 500 kWh of batteries are charging at 642 kW, a 10-80% charge will take 32 minutes, not 3.5. ??!?
I am curious about implementation. For example, if one is to retrofit a previously diesel line, and can choose between battery electric or the overhead lines, how would you say they compare?
@@andyroid7339 You do? Really? I'd have thought it was blindingly obvious, that battery electric trains are far more expensive (long term. The initial setup is cheaper) and inefficient. It requires more power, due to higher weight, more maintenance, due to more parts... (including more moving ones, as well as batteries that degrade a lot) There is no possible situation, where it makes any sense, to power trains with anything other than overhead line or, where there are issues with those, a third line. She mentions tunnels and branch lines being expensive to use overhead lines on, but it's even more expensive, in the long run, to use batteries. Not to mention, that you could just simply use a third line to solve the cost issue, instead.
@@ZarlanTheGreen Thanks for your speedy reply. So why then, if what you say is economically true, is there this research? Regarding use of a third rail - how would this be guarded to prevent straying pedestrians and animals from electrocution? How would the maintenance costs of a third rail in open country (i.e. not in a protected u/ground environment) stack up? What are the economic electrical losses of operating either third rail or o/head line options? Note too that these batteries will be recyclable, some of the cells of which may end up in the trackside container units. Further to this, when there is a glut of wind energy, these units (train and container) will be used to store charge and even possibly release it when prices are higher and demand increases. I'm looking forward to your response.
You're never going to get away with this with regards to trains... although I'd be tempted just to cheekily troll the train enthusiasts who never miss a trick. Is there an easier (or nicer) community to troll? Heckles constantly on the lookout
Great - but missed opportunity - make the charge rails longer and accelerate the train from the station using static mains/battery power. That will increase range + reduce depth of discharge + increase longevity of system.
If the future trains accelerate anything like an EV car, it will be up to speed before the last carriage leaves the station, so it shouldn't be a problem. Should be little to zero chance of frying someone.
@@thekaxmaxinterlocks are genuinely ancient technology, thousands of years old, they're reliable & well understood & they're already in use on this system, it's only the timings that the OP is suggesting altering.
@@thekaxmax We have been doing this already for a century, no it's not inherantly dangerous. If someone touches those obviouly electrified rails that's on them, just the same as anyone touching the 25kv overhead lines.
Incredible charging infrastructure. I would hope to see something similar here with the upcoming Washington State Ferry network overhaul - the time between turnaround is longer than 3 minutes, but I don't recall seeing any battery buffer to alleviate the massive charging loads off the grid.
This is the kind of significant major infrastructure we need in the country. No doubt a local planner will stick their foot in and object to any proposed retro fitment of these at a station!
IF Hydrogen Trains cant beat Battery Trains ? H2 : you know the route, the refill points , how much hydrogen you would need vs Battery Train: you need a massive battery .. Then there isn't much hope for H2.
As shown in the video, you don't really need a massive battery. You just need as many opportunities to charge. And if every stop had a box of batteries being filled by solar/grid, and you got 5 miles each time you stopped, then you'd rarely ever drop the charge too low that things would worry. But then again, if it did drop too long, you'd only need to wait 5 mins to get it back up to charge for the next station. Although I have always said hydrogren would be great for mass transportation, I personally can see the benefits for medium batteries on routes with lots of stops. Sure, the routes between York and London that don't stop for 2.5 hours, batteries will never work there and that's the hydrogen path, but for underground routes in London or local routes, this seems far superior as hydrogen won't be cheap.
On the contrary. Some research will reveal hydrogen powered trains in use all over, particularly in Europe. That said it must be conceded that not all hydrogen trains are equal and some have had issues. Clearly some outfits are ahead of others in the hydrogen engineering stakes.
With hydrogen you throw away more than 60 % of the energy compared to using batteries losing less than 10 %. If you want to increase the energy use of transportation enormously, hydrogen would be excellent. But I don't think anyone sensible would want that.
@@ZarlanTheGreen Long term maybe, but we don't have long term when it comes to carbon emissions. We need a two pronged approach, getting BEV trains off teh ground fast (as rolling stock is replaced/upgraded) on branch lines, while rolling out overhead electrification for intercity trains - maybe, increasingly, overhead discontious electrification paire with batteries.
Imagine the massive saving on overhead lines, their maintenance, their vulnerability to storms, their ugliness. Great stuff bring it on and on and on .
I’ve just read that they have announced that the first of these battery trains is going to be deployed full time between Twyford and Henley, (which is an every half hour service)
00:10 Imogen, driving a train in reverse, can't look "In The Direction Of Travel," and no hands on the controls. . . . . Should I be REALLY Impressed, or absolutely Terrified ? :-).
Battery locomotives actually appeared in 1905 on the London Underground, and were used to haul engineering trains during the small hours when the traction current was turned off. From what I've seen they were built to be used on the deep level lines, but also worked the sub surface lines because the track gauge is exactly the same.
After I raised up to 325k trading with her I bought a new House and a car here in the states 🇺🇸🇺🇸 also paid for my son's surgery (Oscar). Glory to God.shalom.
Amazing to see opportunity charging go from experimental wireless charging on a single electric bus route in Milton Keynes in 2014 to a better more natural use with trains a decade later.
I was unofficially, the first actual passenger on this train. A couple weeks ago, it was doing Sunday trials, with invited guests onboard. Right place, right time, I hopped on the train. When I got off at my stop, the guard was all sorts of flustered. “Does not compute, does not compute…malfunction”. LOL
Not instilling great confidence when the Grim Reaper says he was the "unofficial first passenger"
Hmm, I was a passenger in 2018 though.
@ I was a passenger in 1982. I win :D
@@davidwebb4904 Have you checked that the London Transport vechile numbers matched the vechiles in the GWR 230s, which you have riden on?
well that's one way to do it lol... first time I've heard of a normal passenger riding on a trial train. I did hear a long while ago about someone riding on an ECS (empty coaching stock) train haha - "I got to my destination quicker than normal, it was great"
I don't care who you are or how old you are sounding the horn on a train will turn anyone into a child with a smile from ear to ear :-)
I’m pretty sure the UK’s first battery powered locomotive was built in 1837.
It had the slight issue of making the driver repeatedly pass out from the acidic battery fumes, but it’s the thought that counts.
...or from the driver's point of view the _lack_ of thought!
Hornby .
@@GaryV-p3h'Hornbys' was how mainline footplate staff used to describe the old Southern's 3rd rail stock!
Haha, but it's like the first ever cars were electric as well. It's just the infrastructure wasn't there for charging so petrol was the obvious choice.
How things have changed!
@@Andrew_dot_plsAnd there was petrol infrastructure back then? There weren't even halfway decent roads to get deliveries down to the not yet invented petrol pump. Earliest cars were fuelled a gallon at a time from containers, often sold through chemists!
It's often said that the thing which really kicked ICE vehicles off was the starter motor. WWI of necessity rendered the technology a lot more robust.
Sorry, but it is NOT the first in the UK. British Rail used a battery electric train from 1958 to 1966 on the Aberdeen to Ballater line.
I was coming on to say this. 😁👍
It's not like they just got rid of the train either, they shut the whole line.
@@grahamleiper1538 I think one of the BEMU is being restored at Milton of Crathes
LOL and just like the last one, this will just be another spark that would lead to nowhere why?
The underlying UK regime is the same ineffective corrupt leaders working for fossil fuel corporations.
You beat me to it. Many's the time I've walked or ridden along the old line, lovely place. My wife's family is from Ballater.
@@jonford6119 We are going to Milton of Crathes tomorrow.There is a very nice cafe restaurant,and I am going to see if the BEMU is there.There is a photo of it on the Google maps link.
The grin when sounding the horn. Love it.
Literally everyone was jealous at that point lol
she's pretty
I was Senior Buyer and Analyst for the company that built this electric train and others. The others went to USA. There were other unbelivable inovations that occoured during building this train. The original builder of this train is Vivarail, I actually wore one of their jackets to work today with pride. Ian Campbell Kelly was a great inovator at Vivarail. If you are train-person I can explain. But just look at the quality of the train. Vivarail should have been huge, I will not go into the details of what went wrong - just let me say Vivarail could have (in my opinion) been the Tesla of trains. Brilliant work that Dave and Julian have done - what a shame Vivarail was not the massive success it could have been for the UK.
Can you explain why Vivarail/GWR designed this custom shoe coupler instead of using well-understood 140-year-old overhead wires (which you can see at West Ealing station at 12:45) to recharge? Was it just to save money converting these Class 230 trains were originally London Underground D78 electric cars?
Also, everyone wants to know if the trains have regenerative braking, and GWR's own press release don't say.
I concur, such a great concept...
@@skierpage Good question!
Parts of the answer were given in the video but I agree that without already knowing the history this particular point wasn't covered in detail. Yes, W Ealing is on the electrified mail line going West out of London.
BUT the infrastructure you mention can't handle anywhere near the levels of current needed to recharge a train in 3 mins.
On Merseyside they have a battery train that recharges from third rail, but that train only runs on battery for a few percent of it's duty cycle.
The wires at West Ealing continue over the Hanwell viaduct, but well before then the line to Greenford has turned off, and that is not electricified at all. So unlike the Merseyside solution they would have to use about 10% of the journey to recharge a whole round trips worth of power
... Or the train could sit in the station at West Ealing for an hour between services, whereas the video did explain quite well that the goal was to return to service after only 3 mins after arriving.
The longer term reason is more strategic.
GWR has a huge number of branch lines that are similarly unelectrified, but join an electrified main line. By the time the original developers of this train had run out of money, GWR saw the tech would meet a need they have on each of those branch lines, and by then the prospects looked good that it would actually work
Due to Vivarail (the original developer company) going bust, GWR was able to buy into the success without having taken the original financial risk.
Happily, the development team also kept their jobs, but after the buyout the new management refocused the project on the specific needs of GWR and it's branch lines, because that's what they wanted from their rescue.
Other interesting ideas that Vivarail had had, that were technically just as successful, were dropped because they didn't fit into the GWR strategy. And at least something was salvaged -- in my opinion the battery train was the tech that would have had the most impact on the climate crisis, so from an eco perspective it was a happy result too
@@skierpage regarding the braking system: it's described as "electro-reactive pneumatic". I'm not sure if that means it is partially regen, or not at all. Maybe others can help unpack that terminology?
@trueriver1950
Merseyrail have the class 777/1, a sub class of the class 777. The 777/0s being 3rd rail DC only. The 777/1s make up just seven units of the fifty three unit 777 fleet. The batteries, lithium titanate, are mounted in the same space designated for a transformer, should they be required to be dual voltage in future. So, they can be either IPEMUs, or dual voltage, but not both. As you rightly say, only a short part of their overall route from Liverpool Central to the new station at Headbolt Lane is required to run on battery, the rest of the time they draw current from the 3rd rail for both traction and battery charging purposes. The overall route being quite short, only four units are required in service to maintain a 15 minute frequency. The 777/1s do occasionally make appearances on in service on either the Southport or Ormskirk branches of Merseyrail's Northern Line.
Has anyone mentioned Merseyrail's battery electric trains that have been running in passenger service to and from Headbolt Lane since October 2023?
I was going to post the same thing
However British Railways beat both Merseyrail and Great Western Railways with there battery train from 1958.
i was gonna say if this is the first what on earth have i been commuting on
Heabolt Lane should have been a simple third rail extension, at a fraction of the cost of the ridiculous hybrid set up they've now been lumbered with. This is all because of a blanket "no expansion" policy on third rail electrification decided by grey people hundreds of miles away. I wonder how many £millions were siphoned out of the industry in consultants' fees to complete this white elephant of a vanity project?
@@SkyeTheTimeBeast Depends on if your line is electrified and it would depend on which electrification system used, then it will depend on the TOC and route as different routes in the same TCO can use different trains.
Shame you didn't mention the team at Vivarail, whose business sadly went bust in late 2022. While GWR is to be commended for picking up the project, it was Vivarail who did the heavy lifting in getting this train concept up and running, and took the hit for the early prototype fails
Theres is a comment further up stating that GWR bought out the Technology and the Vivarail team who are the same team currently working on it.
This is them, different employer
@@paulhaffenden8911"in the comments" - it should have been in the video
The Viva rail staff kept their jobs and it's great that they did.
But the folks who put money into Vivarail lost their investment. I hope they can take some feeling of pride that even if they didn't get rich their money did help move the idea of battery trains forward in a way that would not have happened without their willingness to invest in the idea. In terms on the impact on future generations their money was well spent, whatever their financial advisors say.
Shame?
"the timetable is sacred" had me rolling with laughter 😂 good one
"Nice joke" - Deutsche Bahn
Excellent episode! Really cool to see this tech deployed, and great storytelling bridging through this timeframe, well done!
There seems to be a lot of negative comments on here but I believe they've all missing the greater point here. Grid connections are one of the main sticking points across the UK for most all new electrified projects. The idea of having localised battery storage fed with local renewable energy not only stabilises the grid but offers further savings by potentially lowering peak gas turbine generation and giving lower cost electricity to all of us. Great story and great video Imogen, let's hope this really takes of and we see this across all our rural networks. I live just outside Lincoln, a large city which unbelievably lies on an unelectrified branch line...
@philskermer3132 Network Rail is the owner of the rail network and doesn't think batteries are the future instead hydrogen.
The one thing that sure as hell is not the future, is the UK... NIMBYism off the charts as if they still had an empire, boggles the mind
Or they could improve the national grid. Maybe invest in more nuclear while they are at it
@mattevans4377 Network Rail already only buys nuclear power and is install solar panels at substations, like they have installed a 5mw solar system at Aldershot.
@@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire I'm not blaming Network Rail. I'm blaming the National Grid and the Government
Great report. I like how the progress was followed over time and I look forward to the next chapter in the story.
How'd you manage to make three train videos without Geoff Marshall being in the background of any of them? 😃
Marvellous.
I live in Lincolnshire on the East Coast Main Line and branches, where we also have lots of bridges, thus making overhead lines hard to achieve. So, battery trains is what we need, roll them out and let's get on with it.
Eh, no. If overhead lines are impractical, use a third rail. Batteries make no sense.
@@ZarlanTheGreen Agreed!
@@ZarlanTheGreen This comment seems quite illogical, please elaborate?
@ZarlanTheGreen I thought there was a safety problem with the third rail, especially as we also have a lot of unmanned level crossings, with farm and footpath access.
@@SheepShearerMike Also, for historical reasons (and a little bit for climate reasons) third rail is south of London, so not in Lincolnshire.
I'm glad we're getting good use out of old tube trains and this should be a great option for truly rural areas. But for somewhere built up we really should be electrifiying properly.
Now this trial is producing stat's they can do the sums to see for full electrification is needed, I would hope it's "total cost of ownership" is already cheaper than the diesel option ⛽
I would think in the right area instead of just a 1 MW of power for Train could have 10-20 MW system into local grid. Stabilize grid, cushion the charge/discharge amount for train over more batteries and make extra money selling electricity when prices are high.
Properly?
Full electrification takes ages to design, plan and implement plus is fairly expensive. The UK south western bound lines (which GWR operate directly and via SWR) is only partially electrified, with the 80 mile line from London to Bristol having been stop and go for nearly 30 years, was eventually started in 2009 completed 8 years later at a cost of £7b (including some branch line upgrades into Walse and southern-England).
The main rail links from London the far south-west of the UK remain unelectrified for most of their run, werre built nearly 160 years ago, and include a number of additonal branch lines. The terrain and routes (many tunnels, hills, cuttings) would be very expensive to upgrade. Currently diesel electric trains run on the more southernly line (West of England main line), and hybrid diesel + electric trains on the London to south-west via Bristol (Great Western main line). Running pentograph lines or third-rails along these locations would be expensive, difficult and highly disruptive to what are two fairly busy main lines.
If instead the train itself can be electrified, which charging at intermediary main stations (of which there are many, as well as minor stations) alone the route would likely be a much more cost effective solution. One that offer additional resilience as some areas in the regions are known to flood and high winds, which would effect third-rail solutions and pentograph solutions, the trains will be able to continue running past areas without power to the next charge pickup points.
Similarly, there are many smaller trunk and branch lines criss-crossing the UK, that would also be expensive and time consuming to upgrade each with their own unique needs - having battery powered trains on these lines, particuarly ones supported by local solar/wind/off-peak grid connections would speed up the electrification of the whole rail network in the UK.
This has been a hot topic for along time.
The reason there are so many lines down between Peterboroigh and Kings Cross is down to buying the cheapest overhead lines.
This was a serious problem all through the 90's.
They are cheaping out wherever possible because the government is not prepared to make real investment into rail...
HS2 remind you of anything?
I love the passion and knowledge of everyone (except me, it seems) commenting here - they all know a very great deal about trains!
I know next to nothing, and am happy in my ignorance, but enjoy using them; I don't care a jott about them as long as they get me from A to B reliably, speedily and comfortably.
Battery trains are a good idea for unnelectrified branch lines that run on diesel as it would electrify the line quicker and cheaper than install overhand pickup lines via pantograph or third rail via running shoe.
Trains with batteries onboard are also a good idea for covering a gap in overhead or third rail systems. In these use cases the train usually picks up power while moving along, but when it reaches a gap it runs on the battery power, and recharges the onboard battery when it gets to the end of the gap.
Clearly that is a different kind of battery train to this one: the batteries can be smaller, and don't need lineside storage as they are recharged from the normal running current whenever it's available.
Use cases:
- tunnels where the civil engineering to usual overhead wiring is prohibitively expensive
- container yards, where there has to be a gap in overhead wiring to allow the containers in and off. At present this either involves use of a diesel shunter, or complicated movements to allow the train to be pushed/pulled under the crane without the electric loco also going underneath.
- historic railway architecture, such as the viaduct near Bath, where local people, listed buildings regs, and English Heritage strongly oppose the (alleged) spoiling of the historic architecture with overhead wiring.
- extending an existing electrified service without needing more wires/third rail. This was fine by Merseyrail for the extension to Headbolt. Unlike the fat charge system, the batteries are slowly recharged from the running current while the train follows the rest of its service route visiting all the other stations on the line.
What's different here is the fast charging scheme. As well as being a game changer for the kind of shuttle service been West Ealing and Greenford, this success also makes it more feasible to put money into making batteries to cover gaps into a real thing.
They are looking into the battery electrification of the Exeter St David’s route when the diesel trains come end of life in 10 years time.
@@trueriver1950Your last point is exactly what is happening in Ireland. Irish Rail put a big order for a fleet of battery trains, they will run on the existing electrified tracks around Dublin and then switch to battery to run on non electrified tracks around Dublin for up to 40km from Dublin. Greatly increasing the range, frequency and capacity of Dublins commuter rail network. They do plan to eventually electrify those tracks, but it will take years longer because of complex bridges, etc. They can then take the batteries off the train and use them as line side battery storage systems. First trains of the new fleet just arrived in the last few weeks and are starting testing soon. All very clever.
Excellent - there are so many local lines that could use this technology
@@trueriver1950 Another benefit is peak shaving for the load from the trains themselves. The trains will consume a vast amount of power to get going but relatively little to maintain their speed. It's possible to split the load between the overhead line and batteries to limit the peak current that the overhead cables have to carry which would let you use thinner cables.
Actually I think Merseyrail were first. The Headbolt Lane station on the Kirkby leg of the Northern line was built beyond the termination of the third-rail network, and they didn't want to extend it. Trains on that line now all have batteries on board so they can run to that station, and have been since October 2023.
First in recent times. As others have commented, battery electric trains (with lead acid batteries) were a thing briefly in Victorian times. This is the rebirth rather than the birth of the idea.
The 777s trains haven't been the most reliable averaging a range of 896 miles between failures.
@@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire
Annoyingly some for minor equipment reasons such as the door failures, cameras so the drivers can't see the doors, the moving step that extends prior to the door opening having problems. It's not unusual to be on a train and see at least one door labelled not in use. Trouble is, even though it's minor equipment, it's safety related and takes a train out of service. There's also the dreaded software issues that seem to blight modern rolling stock. We still see the odd 507 showing up to cover services.
"Time tables are sacred"!!!!!!!!! Imogen clearly doesn't travel by train lol, sorry Imogen but that did make me laugh.
Leaves on the tracks or the wrong kind of snow can play havoc with the timetables.
*laughs in swiss*
To be fair whomever wrote her script was 100% correct, but I think they were writing it about Japan, it's an easy mistake to make as the UK and Japanese rail networks are sooo similar.
Part of the trouble is that lateness compounds as trains wait for other trains.
In 2015 a single Class 379 Electrostar train was modified to run on electric lithium batteries with passengers on the Mayflower line, which connects Manningtree to Harwich International and other stations in Essex. This was a trial to enable charging when connected to overhead power and battery on unpowered sections. I have vague memories of tests being run on this line on or possibly before 2010.
British Railways had a BEMU running in 1958 in passenger service, the 379 was only ever in test.
@@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire My reply to you was deleted. The 379 did carry passengers on a scheduled hourly service. It was the first battery-electric train service even if described as experimental. Sorry if that upsets the 'Everything Electric Show'.
@mbak7801 The British Rail BEMU was first in 1958.
@@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire I hope so but could not see mention of paying passengers.
@mbak7801 Considering it ran for 8 years I would guess it had passengers.
We have no overhead lines from York to here in Scarborough, whereas the rest of the line from York to Liverpool has overhead cables. This would be great for our line.
Overhead cables York to Liverpool - really?
I'm North of Aberdeen. Electrification stops at Edinburgh. Admittedly local station saw it's last passengers in 1965, and hasn't even had track since the '70s.
There isn't overhead cable from York to Liverpool yet. It'll be live from York to Church Fenton soon- then it's diesel power to Stalybridge and then electric to Manchester Victoria and Liverpool from there!
This route, absolutely should have overhead lines, and it's a shame it hasn't got them yet.
@@lkbergen The route is not without big challenges otherwise it would have been done long before (York - Liverpool that is)
What about the Battery electric train that operated between Aberdeen and Ballater in the late 1950's through to the mid-1960's? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_BEMU
It should have been NiFe batteries for reliability & lack of fumes (the electrolyte is potash not corrosive sulphuric acid).
What about the battery electric train that was demonstrated in Aberdeen by Robert Davidson in 1837?
I missed an important part: Which kind of batteries are used: It seems to be lithium titanate oxide. Low energy density, but very safe and very long life even with regularly fast charging.
The Class 230 and it’s sisters are actually the old London UndergrounD District D78 (1978) stock given a new life.
The London UndergrounD trains are 4 rail trains, 2 running rails and the 2 conductor rails that provide the DC power to the trains. The inner (centre) conductor rail is the Negative, at -210V, and the outer (outside of the running rails) is the Positive, at 420V, providing the 630VDC* traction supply. *Where the 4 rail and 3 rail (third rail) trains (London Overground and British Rail) share tracks the traction voltage is 750V on the outer conductor rails and the centre rail is connected to the running rails and is at 0 Volts. Note: the Negative (or 0 Volt rail) is always in the centre but the outer Positive rail at +420V or 750V is placed on one side or the other for operational (track work points/switches etc,) and furthest away from platform edges at stations.
When it comes to battery charging the Class 230 batteries becomes a 4 rail train as it was when on the District Line of the London UndergrounD with Positive and Negative conductor shoes. A nice little nod to its past.
For a lot of stations, there should be no reason why there can't be a massive solar canopy over the tracks from platform to platform, roughly the length of the platform and or the trains servicing them. Trickle charging battery banks from these should be fairly straightforward. Also, train station solar canopies would do double duty as extra shelter for waiting passengers, hopefully encouraging greater take up of public transport in the process.
That would help a lot, but wouldn't work so well in winter.
Italy have been experimenting with solar sleepers. Mind you, they do get a bit more sun there.
@BooBaddyBig That's true of all solar systems, irrespective of size for those who are located in areas that experience less sun outside of summer. But it should also be remembered that solar technology is actually more efficient in cooler weather and all that is actually required for energy production is light. Recent developments in solar technology has produced panels that will respond to starlight.
@@pinkelephants1421 Yeah, but there's not nearly enough starlight to drive trains for any practical size of solar panel array. Still, having trains being net low carbon over the year is probably a good idea with few downsides. Still, we have solar panels here, and during the winter they are pretty shit and often give near zero output. So it wouldn't change the size of the grid connection required, but it may be able to reverse the power flow during the summer.
@BooBaddyBig I didn't mean that starlight would be sufficient to power trains, of course not. It was a means of pointing out how solar technology is evolving. Solar does produce more electricity than you give it credit for in a UK winter; multimillion pound investments in grid scale solar aren't done for the fun of it & there's PLENTY of new such projects seeking either planning permission or about to commence as soon as they can get a grid connection.
What an utterly fantastic video (or series of videos, as it were)! So good to see the electrification of passenger rail. Brilliant work as always, Imogen.
I don't remember hearing anything about regenerative braking. Was still very impressed with the range with such a small battery, considering the weight of the train.
That's a given with anything like this.
@@thekaxmaxare you sure? I'm not aware of London Underground using regen braking...
I don't think the London Underground runs on batteries 😂@alanhat5252
@@alanhat5252 London Underground doesn't use batteries though. They'd have to use some sort of grid-tied inverter in the train to export power back to the grid. Dumping DC power back into a battery is much easier.
@@robinbennett5994 At least the Dutch Railways already employ regenerative braking, exporting the power to other trains currently on the net. So it's already a thing. Just a fyi.
Of course not relevant to this video, as it's a disconnected battery train. Regen should be even easier though.
No not the first! The BEMU ran from 1958-1966 Aberdeen to Ballater and is currently being restored in Deeside Aberdeenshire.
Yes I remember seeing that on another program
@@stephenp4010 Milton of Crathes
This is bloody amazing! Absolutely fantastic and congratulations to everyone involved.
I'd love to see the economics of this for regional rail electrification here in Australia!
This is amazing progress... if we could apply this technology to rural areas where trains are often trundling past at the end of peoples then it should make a big difference in air quality. Imagin going to a big city station and not seeing any dirty soot or fuel stains all over the place. And there's the added benefit of if the station looks clean, people's behaviours change, and they'll keep it clean.
An abbreviated version of this should be on the National News.
I agree, but sadly they would title it "The hidden dangers of battery Electric Trains" in order to get views. They'd report the good for 25% of the time then have some anti-battery campaigner banging on about the virtues of diesel for 'balance'.
@@chromagraphphotoart The BBC has many good articles about this battery train.
@@grahamcollins6810 So what you are saying is that the mainstream media actually leans heavily to the right and not, as is constantly spewed by people with low IQs, to the liberal lefty left liberal side?
If it were true!
Great episode to see a project from it's infancy, though implementation, to full deployment!
It is priceless to see Imogen so excited about charging shoes after 18 months of waiting :) I am traveling to London next week and might see this cool e-train
Everyone likes a big button to sound a train horn and the smile says it all 😀 Good to know we can still invent and build stuff. These short pieces should be on mainstream media.
It is not in fact Britain's first battery train. In 1958 a battery powered train ran between Aberdeen and Ballater, a line around 42 miles in length. The project was jointly carried out between British Railways Scottish Region and the North of Scotland Hydro electric board. It ran for four years, doing up to a couple of trips daily in each direction, and was notably quiet in operation. Unfortunately lack of interest by railway management at the time killed the project and it was replaced by a diesel multitude unit, subsequently the line itself closed. The battery multiple unit still survives and is back on a restored short section of the Deeside line at Crathes, but is not operational.
Definitely not the UK's first battery electric train. British Rail introduced a battery electric railcar in 1958.
Can you give more details please? What class designation? Where used? Is it still used (perhaps abroad)?
@@alanhat5252 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_BEMU
The GSR over in Ireland beat BR to it by some years. On the difficult ex-Dublin & South Eastern route, Dr. James Drumm's revolutionary fast charging Nickle-Zinc battery multiple units (in service between 1932 and 1949) were the forerunners of the (brand new) B/EMU Hybrids now entering service on the enhanced DART services around Dublin.
@@alanhat5252It lives on the Royal Deeside Railway. Although safe, it needs new batteries and a serious electrical overhaul. Formerly it did see occasional use .... as loco hauled stock. That's the same fate which befell some of the GSR Drumm units at the end of their battery life ... by which time the output from Shannon Hydro-Electric Scheme was no longer surplus capacity!
Oddly, the Royal Deeside's website doesn't trumpet this unique unit's presence.
@@TheHoveHeretic The Deeside BEMU hasn’t been used as hauled stock for many years, it is now out of use stored at West Lodge near Banchory. It can be viewed easily enough from the adjacent A93.
Love the video with multiple recording dates.
I'm sure this has been tried before in the UK.In the late 50s battery electric trains were tried between Aberdeen and Ballater,before Beeching chopped the line.
Indeed it was, but battery technology has moved on and improved.
@@rolandharmer6402I believe one of the Battery Multiple Units is being restored at Deeside Railway.They run a short section of the original rail line between Crathes and Banchory.Maybe Fully Charged could have a look at the great grandad of this new train.
@@rolandharmer6402 There is a small section of preserved track between Milton of Crathes and Banchory.They do heritage runs and some steam days.I think they may have an original BEMU being restored there,but not sure .
Reading up on the project it was powered by Hydro Electricity at the price of 3 farthings a unit.Changed days.😊
@@johnmcconville6055 The one & only BR BEMU returned to Deeside in 2001. It had been restored to working order at the East Lancs Railway, operating between Bury & Rawtenstall on special occasions. At that time it belonged to the West Yorkshire Transport Museum. Following the closure of that project, the assets were sold off, in losing the BEMU to the Royal Deeside Railway Preservation Society. The founder members of that group were keen to see it return to Deeside, many people remembering it in use between Aberdeen & Ballater. Alas, by the time the BEMU returned to Deeside, the batteries were pretty much life expired. Also, the few individuals working on it moved on. As I’m not involved with this preservation scheme anymore, I have no idea what plans exist for this historic unit. A shame to see it sitting neglected, especially when a then young Prince Charles, Princess Anne & the Queen Mother travelled in it in 1958.
This is great I hope it continues to evolve
That old D stock TFL train was re-purposed by Viva Rail to run on the Bedford to Bletchley line. (Soon to be East West Rail). Viva rail went into administration and sold out to Great Western Rail. However it’s great to see the battery electric train concept has been kept alive and well. Considering East West Rail hasn’t electrified the line between Oxford to Cambridge, I wouldn’t be surprised if those trains re-appear on the old varsity line once EWR completes.
EWR wasn't electrified because electrifaction was cancelled in 2017.
@ electrification *
According to East West rail, discontinuous electrification with hybrid trains is indeed now on the agenda. Consultation has just started on it with various roadshows along the route up to mid-January '25
@@Pesmog Discontinuous electrification, has a lot of issues hence why a fair number of rail engineering's disagree with it. Discontinuous electrification, is incompatible with most electric stock. Discontinuous electrification, Leeds to future shrinking of the electrified network to save on complexity, for example in the centre of Cardiff, Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Central isn't being electrified and Discontinuous electrification is being used all because it is two complex when there is a lot more complex junctions with OLE, like approach into Manchester Piccadilly.
@ So those Viva rail D stock
Trains might just end up back on the line after all. Adrian Shooter would be very happy to see his project come to life!
I am glad to see the old Vivarail trains are getting some new life. I never knew that they were going into administration, and one day I went to take a journey they normally provided, and it was a replacement bus! Thankfully the line is open again with another operator.
I wish the US would upgrade its infrastructure. Passenger and cargo rail systems would benefit many. Thank you for the tour !
My understanding of the US rail systems is that commercial traffic takes precedence over passenger traffic leading to long waits while priority is given to mile long commercial trains. It throws out timetables and therefore confidence in passengers.
India is a huge and populous country ... yet they have achieved full electrification of the railways (97% so far). Perhaps the USA should be classed as a "developing" country rather than a "developed" country!
@@MrAdopado The US has the highest rates of private car ownership in the world (92%) and an amazing interstate and local road network that lets users go from wherever they are, to wherever they want to go, at any time. For longer distances, the US has hundreds of combinations of cheap and high quality air services, and private bus routes. Not having a huge public transport network is not a sign of being behind, but of being well ahead. Only the bottom 8% would disagree.
@@daleviker5884 ... just talking about whether the railways are electrified ... with an ironic comment attached! Don't get too sensitive ... USA has lots of amazing stuff but that doesn't automatically mean that it leads in every department.
Weapons and killing takes priority in the US, they don't care about their people.
Fascinating !! Thanks
Cover the car parks of every train station with a solar canopy & install EV chargers too.
and the platform canopies, which could cover all the way not just directly over the platforms
Just comes down to money
Return the railways to public ownership, then we can all benefit not just the greedy shareholders of private companies.
thats not how it works lol!!! they are going to need vast amount of energy to be able to fast charge so the grid is the answer.
Did you not bother to watch the video, the battery bank is trickle charged between each tine it's going usef to charge the train, so solar will work perfectly well 90% of the time with the grid only needing to help out occasionally & can top up at night using cheap rate electricity.
Great to see this to it's conclusion. I remember watching the early videos of this. Thank you and great to see.
Faster than diesel that can’t reach the terminal speed. Cool! Did I miss something on regen braking? Seems obvious to me given the mass of a train. Perhaps I was sleeping awake if it was mentioned.
I didn't spot anything on regen braking - it would be a missed opportunity to omit it (unless it's problematic to install).
All modern trains are electric driven, the fossil just turns an alternator and a such all trains regrn brake just on a fossil one it goes into resistors on the roof fully electric goes into the grid and these into the battery.
Not need to mention something that they been doing for nearly 100 years
@@damiendye6623Some regen brakes put power back into the grid.
Also not all modern trains are electrically driven for example the new class 197s with transport for wales are diesel mechanical multiple units.
@@damiendye6623 A lot of things have been going on for nearly 100 years that people who aren't train experts don't know about!
Excellent. Your final comment, giving credit to GWR for seeing it all through, is right on the money. We sometimes in the UK seem to give up just before an idea reaches maturity. Well done God's Wonderful Railway for sticking with it. And well done EEShow for keeping this one on your radar.
Hoping GWR will soon roll out the idea to Slough-Windsor, Maidenhead-Marlow & Twyford-Henley as well as the west country branches. With enough range it might even do Reading-Gatwick, which is already half third-rail
In fariness Vivarail was the one behind this tech. It was them who purchased the old tube stock, them who developed the shoe system (look when it's demo'd, it still had their logo on it). They sadly went bust in late 2022 when no rail company would commit to funding this technology. GWR picked up the remains cheap and just finished rolling out the demo. They've made zero commitment to using this technology anywhere outside the demo vehicle.
@@Rick-vm8bl Agreed. The idea of reusing old D78 Tube Stock, which had fundamentally sound chassis, with modernised powertrain and systems was a good one and the interior refits were done to a high standard. There were various power options, including modular diesel, 3rd rail electric and the pioneering fast-charge battery prototype. Sadly the whole project suffered from teething problems due to not having enough time to carry out proper reliability shakedown trials and many of the units were rushed into service before they really should have been. These issues affected customer confidence and combined with the funding running out before production and sales could really get going finally led to the collapse of the business. It wasn't helped either when Adrian Shooter, the inspiration and primary driver behind the Vivarail project, was struck down with MND. After that the whole thing just lost momentum. GWR just picked up the fast-charge battery train assets from the administrators for a knock-down price.
GWR has enough spare vechiles to create units for Henley-on-Thames, Marlow and Windsor branches and some Cornish Branches. The 230s are to slow for North Downs which requires 90mph units and the 230s are limited to 60mph.
Or maybe the 210 miles from Bristol to Penzance off the Great West Main Line that still isn't electrified (only the London to Bristol part is). Or indeed whole of the 200 mile West of England Main Line (London to Exerter) that isn't electrified at all (uses old diesel rolling stock scavanged from across the UK).
@GruffSillyGoat Great Western Mainline is only London to Bristol, South West Mainline is a different line which runs from London Waterloo to Weymouth with 750v DC third rail, once you get to Bristol you switch to the Bristol and Exeter Railway, then at Exeter you switch to the South Devon Railway, then at Plymouth switch to the Cornish Mainline, if you take the direct route from Reading to Taunton you go via the Berks and Hants line.
The future of electric cars in trains. Great work.
Mega super cool
Congrats to the UK team 🎉.
Why not use a standard pantograph or third rail shoe? That way the train could also run on already electrified lines and recharge while moving.
This is how it's done in mainland Europe, where we just use the existing infrastructure for recharging and therefore can cover almost the whole network without building any new infrastructure (as most non-electrified branch lines conveniently terminate at electrified mainlines). Only in very few locations they had to build short sections of electrification (which is probably still cheaper than the bespoke system presented in the video).
The reason for the "non standard" shoe gear is becuase of the high current draw which makes there a risk regular shoes would melt. Also it using Network Rail Standard charging system.
Since 2023, the company ERIXX is operating connections in Northern Germany with Stadtler FLIRT battery multiple unit trains. They have a fleet of now 55 units. The trains have a reach of around 120 miles, a topspeed of 100mph and need 15 minutes to charge. For charging they use the german standard 15kV overhead wires. They can also use their pantograph to drive on electrified routes while charging their batteries.
@@derjost9903 The BEMUs have been withdrawn in December 2023, according to the International Railway Journal. Due to poor reliability and have been replaced by DMUs.
@@A-Trainspotter-From-Berkshire They are already back in service since February.
Also, the issue had nothing to do with them being battery-electric, just the "normal" software problems that every new vehicle seems to have nowadays...😕(Ok, rumor has it that one was damaged because the driver forgot to switch to battery mode at the end of the catenary. But even if true I'd also count that as 'teething problems'.)
@stephanweinberger Suprised they aren't fitted with auto drop system.
Amazing job removing the wind/rain noise at 4:14 !
11:44 23,4km traveled, power went from 84% to 70%. 14% of 504kW battery with ~20km traveled = 3.5kW per km.
9:00 71+55 miles range. 504kW battery = 2.5kW per km.
Class 230 train has a capacity of 296 passangers.
8W per km per passanger
Electric bus Enviro400 does around 1.3kW per km. Capacity 100 seats.
13W per km per passanger
Electric passanger car does 0.1kW per km in this low speed, 5 passangers.
20W per km per passanger
It is really kind of linear :)
Close enough. My 2023 Chevy Bolt (Korean LG drive train) consumes 151 wh/km at highway speeds.
GWR estimated on there press release it could do 150+ miles on a single charge.
missing some h's after those kWs
no its not! totally different cases! not to be compared.
Inspiring episode - thank you for making the investment in following the progress of this development. 👏👏
Awesome sauce! Both the report and the technological innovation. All diesel trains need to be retired ASAP for air quality reasons and this looks to be one of the most viable candidates to do it with! Especially since the hydrogen hype remains just that... hype!
Bring back steam.😁
nonsense!!!! good luck with that! these are not going to replace diesel at all! diesel is used for all kinds of rail applications from construction of the lines to maintainance to the transport of those gigantic loads from points to points.
Great episode ! Imogen at her best. Thanks.
I do think it’s important for branch lines to do this. But yeah it’s taken a long time. Japan has been doing this for years already. And they did it with a standard pantograph system to charge, which seems to me to be the best solution, because you can set up a very short section of overhead wire at a station on a non-electrified piece of track; or you can charge on electrified parts of lines before they go onto the non-electrified part. Whereas this is quite specialised.
Yes, I was wondering why they didn't go overhead, but this was not explained in the video. The overhead solution would not require tricky timing or special software.
@ I guess the 3rd rail former tube train was the only one they could get ahold of. Or maybe they didn’t think about it.
@@christillVivarail did considering adding a pantograph however didn't do it.
Another comment thread on this video has a good explanation of why they went with the fast-charging rail system rather than overhead wires. Basically, it was easier and cheaper in terms of modifications to the trains and stations.
@richardemerson8075 And it is the national standard for fast charging system.
Enjoyed the video as any form of battery related technology fascinates me.
Great to see this technology coming to trains, 2 stats I'd like to know are, how many kw / mile does it use on the average journey? (I'm assuming it's more than 1 :) ) and how much power do they get back from regen braking?
Why are you happy to see a technology come to trains, that is inferior in every way, to overhead lines and third rails? (the instances where overhead lines are problematic, using a third rail solves those issues)
Imogen Bhogal should have said whether these retrofitted trains have regenerative braking; GWR's press releases don't say.
@@skierpageThe trains do have regen brakes from when they were in service on the London underground.
@@ZarlanTheGreen I see what you're saying, you'd have to do an analysis on how much power loss there is by using overhead lines and 3rd rails vs battery systems, I think they'll use this as a cheaper way to electrify local services where 3rd rail and overhead lines are less cost effective, plus you'd have to factor in the power used to make all the lines, rails and batteries etc any move to renewable energy should be a good move though
@@peterswinson326 There is no need to do an analysis, to compare things with so massive a difference. So undeniable and indisputable. It's like saying you'd need to do an analysis, to know if it'd be more nutritious to eat at McDonald's, compared to a proper and non-fast food restaurant. (or almost anywhere else)
For anyone wishing to see the battery train out and about on the Greenford branch, it will be out on mainly Thursdays & Fridays, whilst drivers are training on it for the next few months.
Robert this lady needs a pay rise. So good to see the progress into commercial use and and not just showing an episode of potential vaperware.
The EE and Fully Charged female presenters (Imogen and Helen) are the best on the channels. Sorry blokes!
It's still potentially vapourware, all that GWR have done is the finishing touches to roll out the demonstrator Vivarail developed before they went bust in '22 & were bought by GWR.
Absolutely brilliant!!
A few years ago, battery conversion of older Diesel Motor Unit Railcars started in Adelaide Australia. They were turned into hybrids by removing one of the two engines, and replacing it with a battery. It is hoped that in the future a two-car-set, which used to have four engines, will be able to operate with just one. Also when these are retired, it is hoped full battery electric railcars will replace them.
Were they Diesel-electric to start with? The British ones I've traveled on seem to be rebodied road-going coaches, complete with gearboxes & propshafts.
@@alanhat5252 Yes they were, with the twin diesels driving generators to provide electricity to the bogie motors. With their new batteries, they can now take advantage of re-gen braking.
In my non-expert opinion, the train shown in this video looks to be a better system. Maybe this, or something similar, could be used when our hybrids are eventually replaced. I will be watching future Fully Charged shows with interest.
I'm just unreasonably excited to hear Southam mentioned!
Aren’t the Class 777/1 trains on Merseyrail the first battery trains?
one of the comments says 1852...
@@alanhat5252 yes and no:
No because in Victorian times there were several locos powered by lead acid batteries. The fumes from said batteries were not entirely healthy for the drivers.
Throughout the 20th century there were sporadic attempts to build battery trains, in the UK and elsewhere.
Yes because the 777/1 on Merseyside were (in my opinion at least) the first to have really got the battery tech working sufficiently well in normal operating service to count.
If you are a train enthusiast it's worth taking the Merseyrail to Headbolt to see if you can notice when the train runs out of ground power and goes into batteries. Looking out of the window for the third rail is cheating!
@@trueriver1950 are these Merseyrail trains using Nickel-Iron batteries or something newer?
@@alanhat5252lithium-ion however the 379s also used them on there battery trains.
@@alanhat5252
Lithium titanate. Around six tonnes per 777/1. It's less energy dense than some other batteries, but allows for a rapid charging.
It's installed in the same location a transformer could be installed should dual voltage 777s be required in the future.
This is such a good project, GWR investing in engineering that will benefit the railway as a whole.
Sorting out the aerodynamics and having regen breaking would be huge improvements.
Hornby for public transport!
In Newcastle, Australia, they have a tram service that is battery powered with overhead pick ups at each station to top up the batteries while unloading and loading passengers, but then also in Byron Bay, New South Wales, there is a train which is operated using Solar to recharge the batteries.
Imagine if the money spent on HS2 was spent electrifying the network. Much more bang for your buck.
What is HS2?
i know right i think that this is so stupid
True but then there would have been no backhanders from property developers for trashing all the ancient woodlands & SSSIs
@@jamesengland7461HS2 - High Speed Two - a now-abandoned project for a second high-speed line, this one connecting London through Birmingham & onto 2 branches, 1 north & the other across to the east coast
@@jamesengland7461the corruption involved is still being discovered but what is already known makes interesting reading.
Congratulations UK!!
Hardly the first battery electric train in the UK. BR had a battery train in Scotland in the ‘50s or early ‘60s and the London Underground has had battery locomotives for goodness knows how long-
Great to follow the progress of this ev train, I hope we get more of them.
Does it have regen breaking, that’s got to be a good way of recovering some power?
Every UK MP should watch this video on the UK’s first battery electric train. Great British innovation and technology using green renewable energy.
It is using electricity produced from burning wood chips import from British Columbia, the ships doing a 28,000 mile round trip (no return cargo) burning vast amounts of heavy fuel oil which, gallon for gallon, emits 3,500 times more sulphur into the atmosphere than the diesel burnt in this nightmare's predecessor. Every M.P. should be made to understand the stupidity of this thing. I hope that when we are hit by the next Winter high pressure and production of wind turbines is down to 5% of peak and the solar panels are shrouded in fog and we are facing widespread power cuts because of idiots with EVs , that they will have the good grace to withdraw this thing and the government will have the sense to ban the use of EVs whilst the Winter high persists. The alternative is not pensioners dying in the cold because of fuel prices and the Winter Fuel Allowance scandal. they won't need the Winter Fuel Allowance because they will die in the cold because there won't be any electricity.
@@terryhoath1983 According to the National Grid: " Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles - 1st August 2022 - Journey to net zero
Myth 5: We’ll end up with lots of EV batteries going into landfill The lithium ion technology in our mobile phones is not dissimilar to those in an electric vehicle, but what’s different is that EVs have effective power management systems that guard the long-term health of their batteries. Most manufacturers are offering battery warranties of seven or eight years, or around 100,000 miles, but there’s a reasonable expectation that they will actually last longer than that and indeed outlive the car itself. ...it won’t end up in that landfill site, as it can either be recycled or given a second life... Even if a battery became no longer fit for use in the car it won’t end up in that landfill site, as it can either be recycled or given a second life as an energy storage unit for homes or businesses. Read more about what happens to old electric car batteries
Myth 6: Electric vehicles don’t go far enough on a single charge and take a long time to charge The sweet-spot for the range of an EV is between 200 and 300 miles. This gives the optimal balance between cost and range. Most people don’t need a range of more than this; after the time it takes to drive this distance most of us need a pit stop anyway. ...when we take longer trips, most of us already do stop for 15 to 20 minutes at a service station... Statistically in the UK, the first car in a family does around 37 miles a day on average and any second car covers around 11 miles daily. In the US, the majority of households (roughly 85%) travel under 100 miles on a typical day.4 Understandably people don’t, however, buy for their average journeys - they buy for the longest ones they do. In reality, when we take longer trips, most of us already do stop for 15-20 minutes at a service station, to grab a drink, use the toilet or fill up on petrol or diesel. That would be all the time it takes to power up your EV with the new range of ultra-rapid chargers that are already available. How long does it take to charge an EV? Charging your EV can take as little as 30 minutes or up to 12 hours - it all depends on the size of the battery and the speed of the charging point. A Nissan LEAF with a 40kW battery, for example, would take around 5 hours to charge from empty with a 7kW home charging point, whereas a Polestar with a 78kW battery would take around 10 hours. A rapid charger at a motorway service station, however, could charge your car to full in about 30 minutes. The charging rate can also differ depending on the ambient temperature, the state of the battery (e.g. empty or half full) and the maximum charging rate of the vehicle. Similar to your mobile phone though, up to 80% of your charging will likely be at home, including while you’re sleeping.
Myth 7: The infrastructure isn’t able to support a lot of people driving electric vehicles - especially in rural areas Currently in the US, there are almost as many EV charging ports as there are gas stations. Charging stations are constantly being added by public and private entities alike. The Bipartisan Infrastructure Law also allocates $7.5 billion for EV charging infrastructure to support continued expansion. National Grid and 60 other utilities are collaborating as part of the National Electric Highway Coalition to foster expansion of fast EV chargers along highways. In the UK, National Grid has proposed the optimum locations for adequate grid capacity to enable others to provide ultra-fast chargers, ensuring that nobody on the strategic road network (motorways and principle dual carriageways) is further than 50 driven miles from ultra-rapid charging. This will give drivers consistency, continuity and therefore confidence that their main - or only - car can be electric.
Myth 8: Electric cars break down more than normal cars Electric cars are actually shown to break down less than combustion vehicles, as they have fewer moving parts. They also require less maintenance, fewer fluids and their brake systems generally last longer due to regenerative braking.5 Edmund King, president of the UK’s biggest breakdown organisation, the AA, told The Clean Energy Revolution podcast: “There is a massive misconception; 99% of people in a survey of 15,000 exaggerated by quite a lot the number of EVs that would break down from running out of charge … it’s less than 4%, and 50% of them aren't actually out of charge, they’re low on charge and maybe a little bit worried.” He continued: “The biggest reason we’re being called out for EVs [breaking down] is exactly the same as for conventional cars.”
According to the National Grid: " Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles - 1st August 2022 - Journey to net zero New petrol and diesel cars will no longer be sold in the UK from 2035 and the US is aiming for half of all new vehicle sales to be electric by 2030. So, before long, it’s likely that far more of us will be behind the wheel of an electric vehicle (EV). But there are a number of concerns and misconceptions about EVs that are still making people think twice - here we address some of the most common EV myths.
@@terryhoath1983 Myth 1: The electricity grid won’t be able to handle the increase in EVs There are two aspects to whether the electricity grid can manage lots of EVs being plugged in at once: Whether enough electricity is available; and Whether the wires that carry that electricity have enough capacity to do so It’s important to remember that the shift to EVs is happening gradually - not overnight. Renewable energy sources are constantly being developed to supply us with more clean and green electricity, and we’re constantly ‘evolving’ the electricity grid to be better equipped to handle it. Will enough electricity be available to charge EVs? A main source of concern here is the scenario of all EV owners charging their EVs at the same time. So is it possible to spread out the demand, while still making sure we all get our EVs charged when we need it? With this in mind, the UK Government has introduced Electric Vehicle Smart Charge Points Regulations, which ensure that EV charge points will have smart functionality; allowing the charging to happen when there is less demand on the grid, or when more renewable (and therefore often cheaper) electricity is available. This means that no matter what time you plug in your car, it will charge when you need it but can automatically pause during those peaks when demand on the grid is highest and energy is most expensive. Similarly in the US, Smart Chargers and Time of Use Rate programmes will support balancing the load throughout the day. Does the electricity grid have enough capacity for charging EVs? The most demand for electricity in recent years in the UK was for 62GW in 2002. Since then, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to improvements in energy efficiency. Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we believe demand would only increase by around 10%. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002 and this is well within the range of manageable load fluctuation. The US grid is equally capable of handling more EVs on the roads - by the time 80% of the US owns an EV, this will only translate into a 10-15% increase in electricity consumption.1 A significant amount of electricity is used to refine oil for petrol and diesel. Fully Charged’s video Volts for Oil estimates that refining 1 gallon of petrol would use around 4.5kWh of electricity - so, as we start to use less petrol or diesel cars, some of that electricity capacity could become available.
According to the National Grid: " Busting the myths and misconceptions about electric vehicles - 1st August 2022 - Journey to net zero
Myth 2: The electricity used to charge EVs is created by burning fossil fuels, so there are still emissions involved More and more of our electricity now comes from renewable, green or clean energy sources, and zero-carbon power in Britain’s electricity mix has grown from less than 20% in 2010 to nearly 50% in 2021. With the growth in onshore and offshore wind farms and the closure of a number of coal plants, transport is in fact now the most polluting thing the UK does as a nation. Our energy system is also becoming more flexible to maximise on this cleaner energy whenever it’s available. Apps like the WhenToPlugIn app, as well as new legislation and smart energy tariffs, are all helping us manage our electricity use - for example, Smart Chargers that can start or pause our EV charging to ensure it’s using the cleanest and cheapest power. In New England and New York, only 0.1 to 2.7% of electricity is produced from coal and oil combined2 and, as electricity continues to decarbonise, these percentages will continue to reduce.
However, in just over a decade the UK's power system has been transformed: coal now generates just over 2% of the UK's electricity.
@@terryhoath1983 Myth 3: EVs are slower than petrol and diesel cars Formula E racing is a great example of just how fast EVs can go. A Formula E car can accelerate from 0-62mph in just 2.8 seconds - faster than most Ferraris. They can have a top speed of 174mph (280km/h), equivalent to travelling from London to Edinburgh in just over two hours. Definitely no issues with slowness there. For normal EVs, …top speeds aren’t really any different to other cars, but they accelerate more quickly so can ‘feel’ faster. For normal EVs outside the racing world, top speeds aren’t really any different to other cars, but they accelerate more quickly so can ‘feel’ faster. This is because you get the maximum torque (leading to acceleration) from the minute you start rolling, whereas you need to ‘rev up’ an internal combustion engine car to get maximum power and torque. Myth 4: EVs are much more expensive than petrol and diesel equivalents It’s true that products based on new technology do tend to be more expensive for early adopters. But, as they become more mainstream and volumes increase, prices typically come down - look at mobile phones for example. EV battery prices are already falling3, which helps with this. So we absolutely expect the upfront cost of new EVs to reduce over the next few years. For those looking to buy used rather than new, the current uptick of supply in new EVs will hit the second hand EVs market fairly soon. Consider the ‘whole life costs’, not just upfront prices It’s important to look not just at the initial outlay for your car but the ‘whole life cost’, which means considering its running costs and how well it retains its value. It seems that EVs are depreciating less than petrol and diesel cars, so you might well get more payback when the time comes for you to trade in or sell on. Even though EVs currently have higher purchase prices, they’re cheaper to run - costing much less than petrol or diesel, at as little as 2p per mile if you charge at the right time of day or night. EVs have fewer moving parts too, meaning they should also have lower servicing costs. Incentives may also be available to lower the price of an EV. Under the US Inflation Reduction Act, families can receive tax credits for new and used electric vehicles, saving them upwards of $1000 a year."
According to transportenvironment.org "Batteries vs oil: A comparison of raw material needs T&E’s study assesses the amount of raw materials needed to make electric vehicle batteries today and in the future - taking into account changes in manufacturing processes and recycling. It compares this with the raw materials needed to run a fossil fuel car to show that electric car batteries need significantly less raw materials. The report also shows that on a systemic level Europe’s overreliance on oil imports far outweighs those of battery raw materials, helping Europe to become self-sufficient in batteries. Key findings: Electric vehicles consume far less raw material (metals) than fossil fueled cars When taking into account the recycling of the battery cell materials and that the majority of the metal content is recovered, T&E calculates how much is ‘consumed’ or ‘lost’ during the lifetime of an EV. Under the EU’s current recycling recovery rate target, around 30 kilograms of metals would be lost (i.e. not recovered). That’s about the size of a football. In contrast, the study shows that the weight of petrol or diesel that is burned during the average lifetime of a vehicle is around 300-400 times more than the total quantity of battery cells metals ‘lost’. Over its lifetime, an average ICE car burns close to 17,000 liters of petrol, which would be equivalent to a stack of oil barrels 90m high. Less raw material will be needed for batteries over time Technological advancements will drive down the amount of lithium required to make an EV battery by half over the next decade. The amount of cobalt required will drop by more than three-quarters and nickel by around a fifth. Europe will need to import less raw material because of recycling In 2035 over a fifth of the lithium and nickel, and 65% of the cobalt, needed to make a new battery could come from recycling. Europe will likely produce enough batteries to supply its own EV market as early as 2021 T&E calculates that there will be 460 GWh (in 2025) and 700 GWh (2030) of battery production in Europe - enough to meet the demand of electric cars."
@@terryhoath1983 The grid is getting cleaner and greener as more coal / gas fired power stations get replaced with renewable energy. Renewable energy is so much cheaper than burning fossil fuels that coal fired power stations are being shut down (thank heavens) in preference to renewable energy. Wind solar and battery storage plus other green renewable energy solutions like hydro and wave power etc ARE the solution to global warming. We just need to stop burning stuff #STOP BURNING STUFF
Hydrogen is not the answer as we don't have the infrastructure and a lot of hydrogen is not green i.e., it is produced by the fossil fuel industry.
Nuclear is not the answer as we don't have an effective way to deal with the toxic waste. Plus nuclear power stations are very slow to build - taking many years - compared to wind solar and battery storage which can be deployed in under one year. Also nuclear cost billions and is no longer competitive compared to MUCH cheaper wind solar and battery storage. Also nuclear power stations are a target for nutters like Putin as we can see now with the war in Ukraine.
How would this system work with frequent trains coming down the track? Or put another way, how many trackside batteries would be needed to provide 100% network coverage?
Oooh I like this. Having batteries at the station is bloody genius. Why drag it about with you? This is the best thing Ive seen for ages.
A far better solution, is to not use any batteries at all, but instead use overhead lines or, where there are issues with using them, a third rail.
But not always feasible.
@ and its not “far better” if the challenge is using cheap electricity. Commuter time is also = expensive energy time.
@@ZarlanTheGreenOverhead lines or a third rail... Genius! I bet that never occurred to anyone involved in this project. 🙄
@@ZarlanTheGreen what's the cost analysis on this?
Have a look at the “Light Rail” or trams in Newcastle Australia. Our trams are battery/capacitor powered. When it arrives at a stop, the pantograph goes up, charges in 60 seconds, pantograph comes down and it runs on batteries in between stops… one day if they expand it outside of the city with stops far apart, it’s fully compatible of running on continual overhead wire.
The obvious problem with running trains 'online' is that their peak demands are whenever their peak demands are. UK isn't like other countries. We have colossal VRE potential in highly intermittent offshore wind, and no really good ways to meet undeferable demand. A country with huge constant power supply by nuclear reactors so dependent on Russian nuclear services that their leader tells us not to humiliate Putin, or by having humongous easily-controllable hydropower might be able to straightforwardly electrify everything, *but we're not them*. Storage - likely in many different forms - is going to play a key role in UK NetZero.
Batteries trackside means peak is not an issue.
@@thekaxmax Yes, that is my point. It does allow trains to defer their demand on the national supply, and to take advantage of trough pricing.
@@trs4ujust put batteries on the grid to level the peaks out
@@damiendye6623 that's a consumer application now. Doing it at national scale is a big job. Storage like Dinorwig can shift only about a half hour of energy from trough demand to peak demand and due to our best supply being wind, sometimes energy is expensive during trough too. Storing all our peak supply to use at peak demand/trough supply would require 1,000s of Dinorwigs, or some tech we seem to be strenuously dodging. Consumer batteries are a pragmatic choice in the absence of a well-advanced plan. We don't even have a whiff of a plan being started.
@@trs4uthe Labour Gov't have actually offered a whiff of a plan plus £3.5bn cash to back it up. They also mention tidal which the previous Gov't shelved for a decade or more.
Enjoyed your presentation. 230001 was at Long Marston 9th June 2018 when I visited and was being developed by Vivarail.
Rail Live 2018
Worth saying that Vivarail developed the technology. GWR bought the intellectual property off the administrators when they went bust.
but importantly brought on the team from Vivarail to continue the project!
And in my opinion, although the Vivarail investors lost their company, their money went to a great cause by moving the tech forward. That may not have been meant as a noble thing for them to do, but it's none the less effective in terms of addressing the climate issues.
Good to see progress being made. It provides another option with battery prices reducing and solar panels forever getting cheaper too one can see all sorts of interesting things being done.
I guess my main question is why traditional 3rd rail (which use the track itself as the other electrical connection) or overhead lines for charging, both of which are plenty adequate (>300kw) and well developed, familiar, proven-reliable technologies.
Proven, reliable, and very very very expensive to build.
@@simhedgesrex7097 Howso? You'd still only need them at the stations where you're doing the charging. A hundred feet of third rail or overhead wire can't possibly cost more than developing an entire bespoke charging system.
Maybe you misunderstood; I'm not saying they should electrify the entire line - of course that would be crazy expensive, which is why it hasn't been done yet. I'm saying use existing electrification technology to make the charging connections.
@@Smidge204 Ah, it was your use of "traditional" that threw me off. Certainly innovative overhead charging in stations is an option. I don't know why they didn't select that - certainly there are trains that do charge from overhead.
There's a national rail ban on building more third rail 750V DC infrastructure, as its viewed as too dangerous (exposed live conductors, etc). The stuff that is already there has "grandfather rights" but they don't want more of it.
I wonder about the benefit too, especially when you can see existing overhead wires at West Ealing station at 12:45. Claude-ai and Microsoft Copilot agree 25 kW says overhead wires can deliver 6-10 Megawatts thus recharging 600 kWh of batteries in as little as 3.6 minutes, so the problem isn't power delivery. And these electrified rails are so short that they can't supply power to the train while it is slowing down, nor while it is accelerating out of the station which is when it is consuming the most power. The presenter (Imogen Bhogal I think?) should have asked about this and also asked about regenerative braking.
By the way, at 12:17 if 500 kWh of batteries are charging at 642 kW, a 10-80% charge will take 32 minutes, not 3.5. ??!?
I am curious about implementation. For example, if one is to retrofit a previously diesel line, and can choose between battery electric or the overhead lines, how would you say they compare?
British innovation in the clean energy and clean transport sectors, that's what we want to see.
...which is why we *_DON'T_* want to see *_battery_* electric trains.
@@ZarlanTheGreen I've got ask why?
@@andyroid7339 You do? Really? I'd have thought it was blindingly obvious, that battery electric trains are far more expensive (long term. The initial setup is cheaper) and inefficient. It requires more power, due to higher weight, more maintenance, due to more parts... (including more moving ones, as well as batteries that degrade a lot)
There is no possible situation, where it makes any sense, to power trains with anything other than overhead line or, where there are issues with those, a third line.
She mentions tunnels and branch lines being expensive to use overhead lines on, but it's even more expensive, in the long run, to use batteries. Not to mention, that you could just simply use a third line to solve the cost issue, instead.
@@ZarlanTheGreen Thanks for your speedy reply. So why then, if what you say is economically true, is there this research? Regarding use of a third rail - how would this be guarded to prevent straying pedestrians and animals from electrocution? How would the maintenance costs of a third rail in open country (i.e. not in a protected u/ground environment) stack up? What are the economic electrical losses of operating either third rail or o/head line options? Note too that these batteries will be recyclable, some of the cells of which may end up in the trackside container units. Further to this, when there is a glut of wind energy, these units (train and container) will be used to store charge and even possibly release it when prices are higher and demand increases. I'm looking forward to your response.
& Preferably publicly owned.
Very delighted to see Grafana dashboards on a train ^.^
"There are in fact already electric trains in the UK" (0:43) Whilst showing a speeded up clip of a train clearly NOT in the UK.... Oh dear!
Russian ED4M (or it's AC version called ED9M) electric multiple unit.
You're never going to get away with this with regards to trains... although I'd be tempted just to cheekily troll the train enthusiasts who never miss a trick. Is there an easier (or nicer) community to troll? Heckles constantly on the lookout
This is fantastic! I did like to know the economics behind this ..
Great - but missed opportunity - make the charge rails longer and accelerate the train from the station using static mains/battery power. That will increase range + reduce depth of discharge + increase longevity of system.
Which also leaves the railes powered as the train leaves them, dangerous for two reasons. They thought of this, didn't do it for good reason.
If the future trains accelerate anything like an EV car, it will be up to speed before the last carriage leaves the station, so it shouldn't be a problem. Should be little to zero chance of frying someone.
Agreed 👍
@@thekaxmaxinterlocks are genuinely ancient technology, thousands of years old, they're reliable & well understood & they're already in use on this system, it's only the timings that the OP is suggesting altering.
@@thekaxmax We have been doing this already for a century, no it's not inherantly dangerous. If someone touches those obviouly electrified rails that's on them, just the same as anyone touching the 25kv overhead lines.
Incredible charging infrastructure. I would hope to see something similar here with the upcoming Washington State Ferry network overhaul - the time between turnaround is longer than 3 minutes, but I don't recall seeing any battery buffer to alleviate the massive charging loads off the grid.
This is the kind of significant major infrastructure we need in the country. No doubt a local planner will stick their foot in and object to any proposed retro fitment of these at a station!
Does this train use regen braking? With the mass a train has and how often it has to stop, I think it is key to do so.
Yes it does and it has it since it entered service on london underground.
IF Hydrogen Trains cant beat Battery Trains ? H2 : you know the route, the refill points , how much hydrogen you would need vs Battery Train: you need a massive battery .. Then there isn't much hope for H2.
As shown in the video, you don't really need a massive battery. You just need as many opportunities to charge. And if every stop had a box of batteries being filled by solar/grid, and you got 5 miles each time you stopped, then you'd rarely ever drop the charge too low that things would worry. But then again, if it did drop too long, you'd only need to wait 5 mins to get it back up to charge for the next station.
Although I have always said hydrogren would be great for mass transportation, I personally can see the benefits for medium batteries on routes with lots of stops. Sure, the routes between York and London that don't stop for 2.5 hours, batteries will never work there and that's the hydrogen path, but for underground routes in London or local routes, this seems far superior as hydrogen won't be cheap.
On the contrary.
Some research will reveal hydrogen powered trains in use all over, particularly in Europe.
That said it must be conceded that not all hydrogen trains are equal and some have had issues.
Clearly some outfits are ahead of others in the hydrogen engineering stakes.
With hydrogen you throw away more than 60 % of the energy compared to using batteries losing less than 10 %. If you want to increase the energy use of transportation enormously, hydrogen would be excellent. But I don't think anyone sensible would want that.
Using overhead lines and/or a third rail, is waaaaay better, way more efficient and way cheaper (long term), than either hydrogen or batteries.
@@ZarlanTheGreen Long term maybe, but we don't have long term when it comes to carbon emissions. We need a two pronged approach, getting BEV trains off teh ground fast (as rolling stock is replaced/upgraded) on branch lines, while rolling out overhead electrification for intercity trains - maybe, increasingly, overhead discontious electrification paire with batteries.
Great video! 👍😎
Imagine the massive saving on overhead lines, their maintenance, their vulnerability to storms, their ugliness. Great stuff bring it on and on and on .
I’ve just read that they have announced that the first of these battery trains is going to be deployed full time between Twyford and Henley, (which is an every half hour service)
00:10 Imogen, driving a train in reverse, can't look "In The Direction Of Travel," and no hands on the controls. . . . . Should I be REALLY Impressed, or absolutely Terrified ? :-).
Ireland had this technology in the very early 1930s, when the Drumm Battery trains went into service on the (then) two Dublin - Bray routes.
This excites me far more than electric cars...smashing.....
Battery locomotives actually appeared in 1905 on the London Underground, and were used to haul engineering trains during the small hours when the traction current was turned off. From what I've seen they were built to be used on the deep level lines, but also worked the sub surface lines because the track gauge is exactly the same.
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Amazing to see opportunity charging go from experimental wireless charging on a single electric bus route in Milton Keynes in 2014 to a better more natural use with trains a decade later.