Hi, I'm an Operations Engineer at a danish district heating powerplant, watching your video on my nightshift. Our heat water battery has a size of 2500MWh. A bit bigger than 8MWh :)
Where does the heat for your system come from? Also would it make sense to have a central heat storage system but each building with its own heat pump system to extract heat from that storage system? Iam think that would make it easier to regulate the heat in a building.
@@anguscampbell1533 The heat extracted from the steam used to generate electricity. Now my knowledge on the subject is fairly old, but from what I remember, the heat extraction takes the place of the lowest pressure turbine, and is therefore able to extract much more energy out of the steam compared to if it was used strictly for power generation.
@@Kalisparo Ok I see now. Anytime there is a steam turbine operating there is waste heat. We have a building here where I live that extracts heat from tidal waters in winter and cools in the summer. The water is replenished every twelve hours. I also have a design for extracting heat from grey water in households
@@Kalisparo this is how traditional heat storage is sourced, but increasingly it's being done with heat pump systems that move heat from the air or ground very efficiently - there are different systems but most boil down to a glorified refrigerator or a/c that can operate in both directions. It can be done with any electricity source (in the vid he talks about wind, but in practice whatever's in the grid at that moment), and it's very efficient because you don't have to actually generate the heat, just move it against a gradient. Home heat pumps can "generate" 3 or even 4 watts of heat from 1 watt of power, but I imagine a large system like this could be significantly more efficient.
Nice job. I'm one of the the large group in Sweden that has heating via district heating. I previously had natural gas and then moved to my own house with district heating. I can testify how convenient the energy source is and how well it works despite long periods of cold. Yes, it takes time to build infrastructure with heating pipelines in the streets. When the job is done, it only has profits.
My brother moved into a flat in Hamburg in the 1970s. It was built for the Olympics before WW2 and was heated on a district heating scheme. The UK is always behind most of Europe.
It's great as long as your provider is fair. In the '90s, in Romania, we had 12-16 C in the apartment, all winter long. I'd never let someone else manage my heating needs.
In Switzerland if anyone needs to dig up a road for some reason, they're obliged to put in appropriate infrastructure at the same time even if it's not immediately connected. Sooner or later another roadworks will happen and enable the dormant infrastructure to be connected. This type of thinking is way beyond the privatised stupidiy we have in the UK.
This sort of system is also great for rural areas but with individual units per house. By taking the warm grey water from showers, clothes washing and dishwashing and storing it in an insulated tank underground a homeowner can extract the heat from that grey water and send it back into the house for space heating, heating water and clothes drying. The same tank can also be used to store waste heat harvested from PV Panels until needed and the heat pump can be a dual system extracting heat from both the ambient air or the tank. Grey water from the tank can also be recycled and used for flushing toilets reducing the intake from wells and the output to the septic tanks thus reducing overflow which is another common problem with septic tank systems. The grey water can also be used for lawn and garden watering during times of drought or low well water The insulated tank would need an overflow into the septic system when needed.
Thanks for this great video! I was surprised that you did not mention the Tube as a heat source! I reckon there is a lot of heat in there and anyone, who has used in the rushhour particularly in summer can testify to the cooling need…
Thanks Imogen; great work again. Yes, DH is very well established in the Nordics and we work with a number of operators that are looking to integrate their DH networks with the wider energy ecosystem as part of a broader sector coupling effort and actively trade demand and supply on the short-term physical power markets... To say it's a no-brainer is an understatement.
Here in The Netherlands I notice that heat networks are much more expensive for the end user than decentralized heating with natural gas/electricity, easily double as much. One issue is that it's basically a monopoly. On top of that getting your house disconnected from the heat network is ludicrously expensive as well. For my next house, it will most definitely be one that's not hooked up to a heat network..
In UK we built power stations as far away from centres of population. This allowed them to use waste heat to keep fish warm in the rivers and keeps birds warm in winter. Another great British idea that never seemed to catch on in other countries. District heating makes a lot of economic sense in densely built up areas. Blow the birds and fish.
Here where I live in Mount Pearl NL , Canada we have a much smaller and different system but with the same results. Waste heat from two twin hockey stadiums is used to heat the water in a swimming pool as well as the water for showers and it also heats the space inside a gymnasium and other buildings nearby. A small Ground to Water system provides back up when insufficient heat is available from the stadiums and rain water from the roofs and from the showers is stored and used to flush toilets. The system was expensive to install but paid back quickly over several winters.
They have been quickly building massive new data plants all over the country and they all produce massive amounts of 'waste' heat...heat that with a bit of intelligent thought and planning could be used for district heating.
It seems obvious, but district heating works best in a densely packed city, where land is too expensive to build a big data centre. So the data centres (and rubbish incinerators, etc) end up miles from the buildings that could use the heat.
There is a company called HeatVentors which has ocean containers that can store heat. They can be transported from the source of the heat to where it can be used by truck or rail.
Looks like E.ON need to update their website - the page linked above proudly states "Citigen has two natural gas fuelled MWM TCG 2032 V16, high efficiency CHPs. These each produce 4.3 MW electricity and 4.1 MW of heat." 😂
Great to see this on such a scale. How it works comes across similar to how the Octovalve on a Tesla which is where I copied my home HVAC system with a 3000 liter water battery.
Really cool! Reminds me of another large heating network, Thassalia, that has been commissioned in 2019 in Marseille with a massive heat pump providing heating and cooling (19MW both) for a whole neighborhood from sea water.
That is very reassuring - nice to know these wonderful changes are happening - I believe a large part of Billingham had a district heating system in the 70s - waste heat from ICI ? not sure but if it is still there, ripe for this sort of change
Excellent discussion how district heating and cooling systems can also store extra wind or solar electrical energy for use later to meet the on-peak demand, for cooling and/or heating, functioning as a low-cost battery.
I recently had a tour in the Mall of the Netherlands how they use aquathermy. It is basically the same as this. Our burrow (wijk) is looking if we can use the same system (only heating) for our homes (19 apartment complexes with over 1600 apartments) to replace our current gas heat pumps).
There is a system in New York that distributes waste heat from a power plant. I expect at some point that will become a heatpump system. This is assuming that New York isn't under water soon.
The difference there (if we are thinking about the same thing) is that it is based on steam, not hot and cold water. So they even have massively inefficient air conditioning based on steam heat. It is very cool and futuristic for someone from 1850 or so. Almost literal steampunk.
Nope that's just your local gasplants. New York used to have nuclear, but cuomo forced those sustainable sources to shutdown permanently. He pulled the water intake licenses. 😢
This is yet another example of why socialized/Better Together projects are often cheaper and easier to pull off than ones that need to be tackled individually... It's one thing to swap incandescent bulbs for LED's, quite another to swap furnaces and water heaters for heat pumps and radiators.... Especially on a per household basis.
Such an environmental journey, ice for keeping beef cool, heat from diesel, heat from gas now high efficiency heating to keep the fossil fuel traders in the city warm!
The heat networks in Poland are still powered or co-powerd by coalplants. They are planning to switch all of them to Small Suclear. Germany used to do this. Temelin in the Czech Republic, provides 750 Joules annually with nuclear. Ps: Fully charged should visit nuclear energy stations.
The circular loop of heating and cooling systems always interested me. Why can’t back yard pools be heated by the heat drawn from an air conditioned house. While in the winter the same pool might be a source for heating the house.
Are you aware of any heat pumps connected to compost bins or muck heaps? We left our small kitchen food waste caddy for several days without emptying it and I noticed the heat when I touched the lid. It got me thinking about whether it would be possible to recover the heat from composting food for home or industrial use. Our local stable has a huge muck heaps, its concrete and I thought if pipes were running through the concrete it might be as good as drilling bore holes.
City Buildings are owned, leased, subleased, and maybe rented out further on a short term basis. Some offices are better than others, some have reduced ventilation to cut bills and everyone is dozy all day. Legal limit of CO2 in the UK is about 5000ppm CO2, stuffy at 1000ppm+ CO2. Consumer grade CO2 meters and logging thermometers are affordable and easy to find. I'd have air quality and temperature in the contract, but lawyers would say what's the chain of calibration for the logging equipment, and these meters are expensive.
Southampton heat network is geothermal. Big red and blue building in the middle of the town centre. Most don't notice it as not expecting it to he there
So as well as being a famous dancer and a celebrity chef, Vito is a district heating engineer … !? There is no limit to his talent and therefore to his capacity for talking very fast 😊😄😆👏
he is right when he talks about these water storages being more efficient than batteries. but that only applies to this scale. in a family home an additional or bigger water tank is very expensive. compared to batteries it is no advantage. but this really depends on the scale. to understand this: for a storage tank you pay for the surface of ideally a sphere. when you double the diameter of the sphere, you need 4 times the surface that means 4 times the cost. but you get 8 times the storage volume.
The big problem in the UK is that we seem to allow some of the dumbest people in the country to make major decisions. Waste heat from server centres should be used for heating but most server centres like power stations have been built miles from houses. No good reason to do that other than the idiotic people who run planning in the UK have no intelligence. In a strange way this video is a waste of time as no-one in the UK seems interested in efficiency.
@@markrainford1219 Houses are spread all over the country. Having grown up in West Leeds there were loads of factories with houses all around them in my youth. They have virtually all been knocked down now but those factories were thousands of times dirtier than a server centre is today.
When it comes to district heating, I think the Dutch are the dumbest. Because as far as I know data centers aren't heating our district heating, but oil refineries or former Canadian/American forests or just waste we and the Italians don't want to recycle that much. To finish it all off, district heating is always done not by community, but by a big corporate energy provider who is allowed to act like monopolists that are obliged to follow the natural gas price. As far as I know government is still failing to implement sensible district heating legislation. The new sensible legislation gets postponed again and the monopolists are blackmailing the government by not building any new district heating networks.
The government is in the process of writing legislation to govern pricing of heat from heat networks. Historically their has been none. For metering you would have a HIU (a small version of the substation in this video) with a meter in it and would be charged by the operators of the heat network for the heat you use. p.s. this is my line of work.
@@_od_7825 I built a system for my new home here in southeast US. There really isn't a stand alone plug and play ready for the market because every application is different. That is why a centralized system is so attractive in an urban environment.
@@JoX1231 interesting. I suppose the drawback is you’re tied into a system and have no ability to switch supplier which could leave you exposed to steep rises in price…but economies of scale should help this.
You can get a 'heat meter'. It measures the temperature difference between the water flowing in and out, and the flow rate, and does some basic maths to calculate the energy you have used. And I'd hope that they would be run as some sort of co-operative, with each user having a stake in the heating business.
Are you looking into this? "The world’s first urban wind turbine designed by AI has been unveiled in the UK. Called the Birmingham Blade, the turbine is jointly developed by AI design specialists EvoPhase and precision metal fabricators KwikFab."
You don't want to power your heat network with heat from sewage because you want that sewage to keep it's heat. If the sewage gets cold in winter and freezes then that will be a really big problem. It's far more important for the sewage to keep flowing, so let the sewage keep it's heat.
I was eith PowerGen, but they couldn't survive in our financial gangster fuelled world, so i was transferred to e-on I was ao happy to finally ditch e-on
Still not convinced of the benefit of heat pumps or heat networks. There's no economy of scale. Drilling costs are the same whether for single home or municipal, apart from lower mobilization costs, but those are offset by havong to build a piping network between homes. Overall it may be competitive pricewise with electricity costs at this time, but that's mainly because electricity costs are high in the uk. Also the whole direction the eu is going in is wrong. All they are doing is trying to reduce electricity usage. This only stalls energy transition to electric, when instead they should be trying to provide more and cheaper electricity. I think it is very ingrained in eu spirit that global warming means lets save as much electricity as possible (meanwhile ignoring coal and gasoline). Let's see if I'm being consistent. On the one hand I think water heat (or cool) storage is a good idea, because it allows bridging times of day with less renewable electricity availability. So this is being used in the gshp here as well, but it actually makes a lot more sense in the electricity intensive (plain heating cooling) framework. I guess what I'm saying is distributed electricity + thermal water storage (no network needed) is more practical, water storage doesn't have to be tied to using gshp and heat networks. On the upside, the infrastructure investments for heat networks make more sense in a london or nyc environment where you want to centralize these heat exchangers and boreholes because of space issues and maintenance, and it also means probably better water/sewage infrastructure maintenance which is typically neglected but with the additional workforce in this area you'd see this get more attention probably. And lowering electricity usage in a massive city isn't a bad thing but again I think it sets the incentives wrong. It's not an accident that the eu is the most resistant to retiring fossil fuels. Then again all that's needed is political will and in the meantime heat pumps heat networks are as good as building out renewables in terms of co2 impact, with local labor instead of imports from china.
No - drilling costs (per building or kWh) are much lower when done for several homes or a large network like this. A borehole for a single home is expensive. A borehole for 10 homes isn't. We have to ignore coal and gasoline because we have to decarbonise. Thermal storage is cheaper than electrical storage for daily variations, but it's not _that_ much cheaper any more (16 kWh of battery is £1700 and is the same energy as 200l of water (£750 tank) heated from 20 to 90C) and the heat is a lot less flexible than the electricitiy. Heat pumps get you 3 times as much heating (or cooling) as direct electric so why wouldn't you use them? We've all been using them in our fridges for decades - it's not a new technology. Also the reason for reducing load by improving buildings or at least using heat pumps is that peak load (in the UK) is winter heating so that's what sets the size of the your generation/supply network. Anything you can do to minimise that peak load reduces the very large capital cost of the low-utilisation kit that supplies the last needed kWh.
Amortized extra cost for the heat pumps is a wash with less electricity use, but it does reduce winter kw peaks so as I admitted it is competitive with adding new renewables and helps the local economy. Ideally the focus should be on both, especially renewables because at the end of the day the only true win in decarbonization is to replace fossil fuels, not just save electricity
@@Rene-uz3eb A heat pump costs about 3-4 grand, maybe 8 installed, and if you use UK average of 12,000 kWh, then doing it by heat pump will be only 4000kWh of actual electricity so the cost saving at standard rate is about 2 grand/yr. That means it's paid for itself in 2 years over direct electric. That not 'a wash' - that's a dramatically quick payback. Much less difference between gas and heat pump, but you should still save money whilst decarbonising (unless it's a shonky install).
@@Rene-uz3eb 99% of domestic heatpumps are air-source which is what I was referring to in my previous post. Not quite as efficient but thousands of pounds cheaper.
Great video, with interesting tech. Both of the speakers should rethink the use of the word “obviously,” as there is absolutely no need to say it. If something is obvious, you don’t need to point it out, unless you are trying to convey to the audience that YOU know it is obvious. The word is arrogant. Please stop using it as it is completely useless in the sentence. Say the sentence again without the word. Has the sentence lost anything? No. Think about it.
I'm from Denmark. Only 3%!? Really??? Geez, what have you guys been doing all these years?? Electric boilers??? OMG, talk about the least effective way to heat.
Other than electric heating, we have nuclear and burning fossil fuels; both of which produce dangerous byproducts. Can you suggest some other methods that are better than electric?
nuclear is the best, there are quite some that is it's heat for district heating. And Poland will do this to. And there are going to be nuclear for only heating, a simpler system.
Sorry, but this is not the solution. In Germany and Switzerland there have already been many thousands of earthquakes due to groundwater heat pumps. Now I understand that these drilling companies like to sell their stuff.
I would say google or youtube in German for earthquakes due to termo or ground water heating. Entire streets and buildings have been broken in half. And no, I am not a dinosaur, my 102 year old house is co2+ and fully equipped with solar panels and an air-water heat pump. Consider or study what impact temperature differences have on the ground and whether you really want that in a city with those tall buildings?
There are more sustainable methods of heating. Such as large hot water air pumps that can remove the gas from an entire apartment building in 1 day. But then you don't need Eon anymore. Realize please you're on the wrong path with termo heating.
But termo heating causes even more problems. In the Netherlands, drinking water companies have already had to close dozens of drinking water wells forever. Due to soil disturbance from termo heating, the drinking water is so polluted and is never drinkable again. I have been following you and fully charged for years. But please ask specific questions about this and also ask yourself. Study the matter.
youtube Erdbeben Erdwärmeheizung ua-cam.com/video/PezGv4gPYdE/v-deo.htmlsi=uUSDNJ-SEa1vEQ5b it is difficult to find the videos because the geothemal industry uses the same tactics as the coal and oil industry. There are hundreds of promotional videos online from how sexy thermo is to how sustainable. This allowed them to keep the critical information far out of view. but there have already been many lawsuits in Germany and Switzerland. It's your responsibility to do the right thing. But don't trust me fighting for our climate for decates, trust Eon. They have a trustworthy history right?
Hi, I'm an Operations Engineer at a danish district heating powerplant, watching your video on my nightshift.
Our heat water battery has a size of 2500MWh. A bit bigger than 8MWh :)
Where does the heat for your system come from?
Also would it make sense to have a central heat storage system but each building with its own heat pump system to extract heat from that storage system? Iam think that would make it easier to regulate the heat in a building.
@@anguscampbell1533 The heat extracted from the steam used to generate electricity. Now my knowledge on the subject is fairly old, but from what I remember, the heat extraction takes the place of the lowest pressure turbine, and is therefore able to extract much more energy out of the steam compared to if it was used strictly for power generation.
@@Kalisparo Ok I see now. Anytime there is a steam turbine operating there is waste heat.
We have a building here where I live that extracts heat from tidal waters in winter and cools in the summer. The water is replenished every twelve hours.
I also have a design for extracting heat from grey water in households
@@Kalisparo this is how traditional heat storage is sourced, but increasingly it's being done with heat pump systems that move heat from the air or ground very efficiently - there are different systems but most boil down to a glorified refrigerator or a/c that can operate in both directions. It can be done with any electricity source (in the vid he talks about wind, but in practice whatever's in the grid at that moment), and it's very efficient because you don't have to actually generate the heat, just move it against a gradient. Home heat pumps can "generate" 3 or even 4 watts of heat from 1 watt of power, but I imagine a large system like this could be significantly more efficient.
Nice job. I'm one of the the large group in Sweden that has heating via district heating. I previously had natural gas and then moved to my own house with district heating. I can testify how convenient the energy source is and how well it works despite long periods of cold. Yes, it takes time to build infrastructure with heating pipelines in the streets. When the job is done, it only has profits.
My brother moved into a flat in Hamburg in the 1970s. It was built for the Olympics before WW2 and was heated on a district heating scheme. The UK is always behind most of Europe.
@@ralpharmsby8040 could be, on the other hand, you can now use the latest technology both for the power plants and the heat exchanger in the home.
It's great as long as your provider is fair.
In the '90s, in Romania, we had 12-16 C in the apartment, all winter long.
I'd never let someone else manage my heating needs.
In Switzerland if anyone needs to dig up a road for some reason, they're obliged to put in appropriate infrastructure at the same time even if it's not immediately connected. Sooner or later another roadworks will happen and enable the dormant infrastructure to be connected. This type of thinking is way beyond the privatised stupidiy we have in the UK.
This sort of system is also great for rural areas but with individual units per house. By taking the warm grey water from showers, clothes washing and dishwashing and storing it in an insulated tank underground a homeowner can extract the heat from that grey water and send it back into the house for space heating, heating water and clothes drying. The same tank can also be used to store waste heat harvested from PV Panels until needed and the heat pump can be a dual system extracting heat from both the ambient air or the tank. Grey water from the tank can also be recycled and used for flushing toilets reducing the intake from wells and the output to the septic tanks thus reducing overflow which is another common problem with septic tank systems. The grey water can also be used for lawn and garden watering during times of drought or low well water The insulated tank would need an overflow into the septic system when needed.
Thanks for this great video! I was surprised that you did not mention the Tube as a heat source! I reckon there is a lot of heat in there and anyone, who has used in the rushhour particularly in summer can testify to the cooling need…
You are quite correct, and in fact there are some projects running to do exactly this.
Such an interesting example of how modern technology can be applied to historic infrastructure. Thank you,
I had no idea that there was that in London already!! Nice one!!
Thanks Imogen; great work again. Yes, DH is very well established in the Nordics and we work with a number of operators that are looking to integrate their DH networks with the wider energy ecosystem as part of a broader sector coupling effort and actively trade demand and supply on the short-term physical power markets... To say it's a no-brainer is an understatement.
I’m 57 and lived my whole life in appartments and houses with district heating in Helsinki area in Finland
Here in The Netherlands I notice that heat networks are much more expensive for the end user than decentralized heating with natural gas/electricity, easily double as much. One issue is that it's basically a monopoly. On top of that getting your house disconnected from the heat network is ludicrously expensive as well. For my next house, it will most definitely be one that's not hooked up to a heat network..
In UK we built power stations as far away from centres of population. This allowed them to use waste heat to keep fish warm in the rivers and keeps birds warm in winter. Another great British idea that never seemed to catch on in other countries.
District heating makes a lot of economic sense in densely built up areas. Blow the birds and fish.
Here where I live in Mount Pearl NL , Canada we have a much smaller and different system but with the same results. Waste heat from two twin hockey stadiums is used to heat the water in a swimming pool as well as the water for showers and it also heats the space inside a gymnasium and other buildings nearby. A small Ground to Water system provides back up when insufficient heat is available from the stadiums and rain water from the roofs and from the showers is stored and used to flush toilets. The system was expensive to install but paid back quickly over several winters.
They have been quickly building massive new data plants all over the country and they all produce massive amounts of 'waste' heat...heat that with a bit of intelligent thought and planning could be used for district heating.
I keep on thinking this and wondering why it isn't picked up. It's so obvious.
It seems obvious, but district heating works best in a densely packed city, where land is too expensive to build a big data centre. So the data centres (and rubbish incinerators, etc) end up miles from the buildings that could use the heat.
@@robinbennett5994 data centres also like having space nearby to expand into
There is a company called HeatVentors which has ocean containers that can store heat. They can be transported from the source of the heat to where it can be used by truck or rail.
Need much much more of this.
Looks like E.ON need to update their website - the page linked above proudly states "Citigen has two natural gas fuelled MWM TCG 2032 V16, high efficiency CHPs. These each produce 4.3 MW electricity and 4.1 MW of heat." 😂
I love the tech and also love her energy and excitement for everything she talks about 😁
Except visiting steaming hot sewers.
It's a shame they can't extract some of the heat from the underground tube system it is very hot in some of it.
Great to see this on such a scale. How it works comes across similar to how the Octovalve on a Tesla which is where I copied my home HVAC system with a 3000 liter water battery.
Really great to see this. Such a hidden part of the city. Seems crazy that we are not doing this more.
A couple of errors in the captioning: 3:16 'most instant' -> 'most ancient'. 3:20 'almost precious' -> 'our most precious'
Netherlands also.My niece recieves the heating for her house from a district heating system.They have underfloor heating and radiators up stairs.
Really cool! Reminds me of another large heating network, Thassalia, that has been commissioned in 2019 in Marseille with a massive heat pump providing heating and cooling (19MW both) for a whole neighborhood from sea water.
It is amazing to see that we have some of hte great renewables hidden away. Thanks for bringing these to our attention!
🤗THANKS IMOGEN BRILLIANT USE 👏👏👏
fabulous film. fascinating clear and well produced
That is very reassuring - nice to know these wonderful changes are happening - I believe a large part of Billingham had a district heating system in the 70s - waste heat from ICI ? not sure but if it is still there, ripe for this sort of change
We need this, but to cool down the London Underground.
Very upbeat and informative - love this show.
Excellent discussion how district heating and cooling systems can also store extra wind or solar electrical energy for use later to meet the on-peak demand, for cooling and/or heating, functioning as a low-cost battery.
I recently had a tour in the Mall of the Netherlands how they use aquathermy. It is basically the same as this. Our burrow (wijk) is looking if we can use the same system (only heating) for our homes (19 apartment complexes with over 1600 apartments) to replace our current gas heat pumps).
Great video, thank you.
There is a system in New York that distributes waste heat from a power plant. I expect at some point that will become a heatpump system. This is assuming that New York isn't under water soon.
Soon?
The difference there (if we are thinking about the same thing) is that it is based on steam, not hot and cold water. So they even have massively inefficient air conditioning based on steam heat. It is very cool and futuristic for someone from 1850 or so. Almost literal steampunk.
Nope that's just your local gasplants.
New York used to have nuclear, but cuomo forced those sustainable sources to shutdown permanently.
He pulled the water intake licenses. 😢
This is yet another example of why socialized/Better Together projects are often cheaper and easier to pull off than ones that need to be tackled individually... It's one thing to swap incandescent bulbs for LED's, quite another to swap furnaces and water heaters for heat pumps and radiators.... Especially on a per household basis.
Thanks for the positive news!
Amazing! You should be called the positive news channel.
We’re at the first stages of developing this in Ashford, Kent.
What a great insight. Thank you.
Such an environmental journey, ice for keeping beef cool, heat from diesel, heat from gas now high efficiency heating to keep the fossil fuel traders in the city warm!
Great video
Fascinating video well done
Now this is how repurposing is done. Very impressive great video very informative thanks for posting
I have been enjoyed, so thank you for sharing.
This is a great example of why distributed energy brings higher cost.
Centrelized is very useful.
That was super. Thanks!
I really appreciated this episode. I got to learn a lot. The Highlander PS remember to use my motto. Kindness is always free.😊
The heat networks in Poland are still powered or co-powerd by coalplants.
They are planning to switch all of them to Small Suclear.
Germany used to do this.
Temelin in the Czech Republic, provides 750 Joules annually with nuclear.
Ps: Fully charged should visit nuclear energy stations.
Amazing.
All awesome as long as you already have all the underground piping in place.
That was very interesting!
The circular loop of heating and cooling systems always interested me. Why can’t back yard pools be heated by the heat drawn from an air conditioned house. While in the winter the same pool might be a source for heating the house.
Are you aware of any heat pumps connected to compost bins or muck heaps? We left our small kitchen food waste caddy for several days without emptying it and I noticed the heat when I touched the lid. It got me thinking about whether it would be possible to recover the heat from composting food for home or industrial use. Our local stable has a huge muck heaps, its concrete and I thought if pipes were running through the concrete it might be as good as drilling bore holes.
I did see a video many years ago about a French farmer who did just that. No idea how to find it again
City Buildings are owned, leased, subleased, and maybe rented out further on a short term basis. Some offices are better than others, some have reduced ventilation to cut bills and everyone is dozy all day. Legal limit of CO2 in the UK is about 5000ppm CO2, stuffy at 1000ppm+ CO2. Consumer grade CO2 meters and logging thermometers are affordable and easy to find. I'd have air quality and temperature in the contract, but lawyers would say what's the chain of calibration for the logging equipment, and these meters are expensive.
I really love district heating. It could speed up the transition rapidly.
Great article. I was wandering. Does this system just provide hot water for heating, or can it be used as hot water for the tap.
Southampton heat network is geothermal. Big red and blue building in the middle of the town centre. Most don't notice it as not expecting it to he there
It would be interesting to see something on the distribution networks. How it’s achieved, losses etc.
Advert heavy with 5 companies featured for 10 mins but informative!
So as well as being a famous dancer and a celebrity chef, Vito is a district heating engineer … !? There is no limit to his talent and therefore to his capacity for talking very fast 😊😄😆👏
Thanks
he is right when he talks about these water storages being more efficient than batteries. but that only applies to this scale. in a family home an additional or bigger water tank is very expensive. compared to batteries it is no advantage. but this really depends on the scale. to understand this: for a storage tank you pay for the surface of ideally a sphere. when you double the diameter of the sphere, you need 4 times the surface that means 4 times the cost. but you get 8 times the storage volume.
A pity we stopped using the water hydraulic system in London to power lifts and other equipment!
The big problem in the UK is that we seem to allow some of the dumbest people in the country to make major decisions. Waste heat from server centres should be used for heating but most server centres like power stations have been built miles from houses. No good reason to do that other than the idiotic people who run planning in the UK have no intelligence. In a strange way this video is a waste of time as no-one in the UK seems interested in efficiency.
They are spread far and wide for reasons.
those heat centres provide a welcome service for birds in winter 😉
@@markrainford1219 Houses are spread all over the country. Having grown up in West Leeds there were loads of factories with houses all around them in my youth. They have virtually all been knocked down now but those factories were thousands of times dirtier than a server centre is today.
When it comes to district heating, I think the Dutch are the dumbest. Because as far as I know data centers aren't heating our district heating, but oil refineries or former Canadian/American forests or just waste we and the Italians don't want to recycle that much. To finish it all off, district heating is always done not by community, but by a big corporate energy provider who is allowed to act like monopolists that are obliged to follow the natural gas price.
As far as I know government is still failing to implement sensible district heating legislation. The new sensible legislation gets postponed again and the monopolists are blackmailing the government by not building any new district heating networks.
Colocating datacenters with centralized district heating and cooling would also make for extremely juice targets.
I do wonder, if this was applied to a domestic setting, how would a household go about paying a bill for this? How is it metered?
The government is in the process of writing legislation to govern pricing of heat from heat networks. Historically their has been none. For metering you would have a HIU (a small version of the substation in this video) with a meter in it and would be charged by the operators of the heat network for the heat you use. p.s. this is my line of work.
@@_od_7825 I built a system for my new home here in southeast US. There really isn't a stand alone plug and play ready for the market because every application is different. That is why a centralized system is so attractive in an urban environment.
@@JoX1231 interesting. I suppose the drawback is you’re tied into a system and have no ability to switch supplier which could leave you exposed to steep rises in price…but economies of scale should help this.
@_od_7825 as far as I know these are owned and run by the local council, not privatised. Keeps prices down.
You can get a 'heat meter'. It measures the temperature difference between the water flowing in and out, and the flow rate, and does some basic maths to calculate the energy you have used.
And I'd hope that they would be run as some sort of co-operative, with each user having a stake in the heating business.
12:00 I heard that trying to use the sewer system as a district heating network is fraught with legal barriers.
It's here, shame that the mainstream media aren't picking g up on this.
Beautiful 8MWh heat battery, would do my house nicely for a year.
Heat battery for the home..hmmm... have to have a look at that.
Are you looking into this? "The world’s first urban wind turbine designed by AI has been unveiled in the UK. Called the Birmingham Blade, the turbine is jointly developed by AI design specialists EvoPhase and precision metal fabricators KwikFab."
It’s not zero carbon. So why say it is? To appear saintly and pure presumably.
does the district heating have the same energy price caps for domestic customers?
Another source of waste heat is the tube network in central London. Often 30 C plus
You'd imagine that the heat from London Underground could provide district heating all over in London.
We need lots more of these and convert all fossil powered CHP to electricity that gets progressively greener!
All of this sounds fantastic, will the poorest in London benefit from any of this? Or is this just for the wealthy?
Another 20 years maybe.You know your place don't you? mark.
Guess.
Isn't ALL renewable stuff for the wealthy?
The poorest in London are sleeping on the streets. How would you propose that this should benefit them?
You don't want to power your heat network with heat from sewage because you want that sewage to keep it's heat.
If the sewage gets cold in winter and freezes then that will be a really big problem. It's far more important for the sewage to keep flowing, so let the sewage keep it's heat.
Thanks, great to see behind the curtain. And just ejoable to watch.
I don't know how, but if they could extract heat from the Underground tunnels, that at least seems like all the heat you could possibly want....
❤❤❤❤
Looks like they're drinking Heineken? Great stuff.
Insane... The adverts
i like the word spangly,
Why can't I turn off these subtitles? What are they for?
They're in the video, not an overlay. They are in noisy areas, it's to help.
This reminds me of the lab under the laundry in "breaking bad"
I was eith PowerGen, but they couldn't survive in our financial gangster fuelled world, so i was transferred to e-on
I was ao happy to finally ditch e-on
Trouble is there's alot of a waste heating and cooling I hate as much as the plastic that provides wings for the turtles 😂
Modern steam punk
ooft!
I kick myself constantly for failing to install a heat pump instead of a new furnace..
Still not convinced of the benefit of heat pumps or heat networks. There's no economy of scale. Drilling costs are the same whether for single home or municipal, apart from lower mobilization costs, but those are offset by havong to build a piping network between homes. Overall it may be competitive pricewise with electricity costs at this time, but that's mainly because electricity costs are high in the uk.
Also the whole direction the eu is going in is wrong. All they are doing is trying to reduce electricity usage. This only stalls energy transition to electric, when instead they should be trying to provide more and cheaper electricity. I think it is very ingrained in eu spirit that global warming means lets save as much electricity as possible (meanwhile ignoring coal and gasoline).
Let's see if I'm being consistent. On the one hand I think water heat (or cool) storage is a good idea, because it allows bridging times of day with less renewable electricity availability. So this is being used in the gshp here as well, but it actually makes a lot more sense in the electricity intensive (plain heating cooling) framework. I guess what I'm saying is distributed electricity + thermal water storage (no network needed) is more practical, water storage doesn't have to be tied to using gshp and heat networks.
On the upside, the infrastructure investments for heat networks make more sense in a london or nyc environment where you want to centralize these heat exchangers and boreholes because of space issues and maintenance, and it also means probably better water/sewage infrastructure maintenance which is typically neglected but with the additional workforce in this area you'd see this get more attention probably. And lowering electricity usage in a massive city isn't a bad thing but again I think it sets the incentives wrong. It's not an accident that the eu is the most resistant to retiring fossil fuels.
Then again all that's needed is political will and in the meantime heat pumps heat networks are as good as building out renewables in terms of co2 impact, with local labor instead of imports from china.
No - drilling costs (per building or kWh) are much lower when done for several homes or a large network like this. A borehole for a single home is expensive. A borehole for 10 homes isn't. We have to ignore coal and gasoline because we have to decarbonise. Thermal storage is cheaper than electrical storage for daily variations, but it's not _that_ much cheaper any more (16 kWh of battery is £1700 and is the same energy as 200l of water (£750 tank) heated from 20 to 90C) and the heat is a lot less flexible than the electricitiy. Heat pumps get you 3 times as much heating (or cooling) as direct electric so why wouldn't you use them? We've all been using them in our fridges for decades - it's not a new technology.
Also the reason for reducing load by improving buildings or at least using heat pumps is that peak load (in the UK) is winter heating so that's what sets the size of the your generation/supply network. Anything you can do to minimise that peak load reduces the very large capital cost of the low-utilisation kit that supplies the last needed kWh.
Amortized extra cost for the heat pumps is a wash with less electricity use, but it does reduce winter kw peaks so as I admitted it is competitive with adding new renewables and helps the local economy. Ideally the focus should be on both, especially renewables because at the end of the day the only true win in decarbonization is to replace fossil fuels, not just save electricity
@@Rene-uz3eb A heat pump costs about 3-4 grand, maybe 8 installed, and if you use UK average of 12,000 kWh, then doing it by heat pump will be only 4000kWh of actual electricity so the cost saving at standard rate is about 2 grand/yr. That means it's paid for itself in 2 years over direct electric. That not 'a wash' - that's a dramatically quick payback. Much less difference between gas and heat pump, but you should still save money whilst decarbonising (unless it's a shonky install).
You forgot the borehole
@@Rene-uz3eb 99% of domestic heatpumps are air-source which is what I was referring to in my previous post. Not quite as efficient but thousands of pounds cheaper.
Great video, with interesting tech.
Both of the speakers should rethink the use of the word “obviously,” as there is absolutely no need to say it. If something is obvious, you don’t need to point it out, unless you are trying to convey to the audience that YOU know it is obvious. The word is arrogant. Please stop using it as it is completely useless in the sentence.
Say the sentence again without the word. Has the sentence lost anything? No.
Think about it.
I'm from Denmark. Only 3%!? Really??? Geez, what have you guys been doing all these years?? Electric boilers??? OMG, talk about the least effective way to heat.
Other than electric heating, we have nuclear and burning fossil fuels; both of which produce dangerous byproducts. Can you suggest some other methods that are better than electric?
They are capturing low-grade waste heat, water is best for that as you're using the storage medium as the heat delivery medium--no conversion losses.
Lots of domestic gas boilers, most homes have one
@@HJV24 I asked for non-fossil-fuel methods specifically.
nuclear is the best, there are quite some that is it's heat for district heating.
And Poland will do this to.
And there are going to be nuclear for only heating, a simpler system.
Sorry, but this is not the solution. In Germany and Switzerland there have already been many thousands of earthquakes due to groundwater heat pumps. Now I understand that these drilling companies like to sell their stuff.
I would say google or youtube in German for earthquakes due to termo or ground water heating. Entire streets and buildings have been broken in half. And no, I am not a dinosaur, my 102 year old house is co2+ and fully equipped with solar panels and an air-water heat pump. Consider or study what impact temperature differences have on the ground and whether you really want that in a city with those tall buildings?
There are more sustainable methods of heating. Such as large hot water air pumps that can remove the gas from an entire apartment building in 1 day. But then you don't need Eon anymore. Realize please you're on the wrong path with termo heating.
But termo heating causes even more problems. In the Netherlands, drinking water companies have already had to close dozens of drinking water wells forever. Due to soil disturbance from termo heating, the drinking water is so polluted and is never drinkable again. I have been following you and fully charged for years. But please ask specific questions about this and also ask yourself. Study the matter.
youtube Erdbeben Erdwärmeheizung ua-cam.com/video/PezGv4gPYdE/v-deo.htmlsi=uUSDNJ-SEa1vEQ5b it is difficult to find the videos because the geothemal industry uses the same tactics as the coal and oil industry. There are hundreds of promotional videos online from how sexy thermo is to how sustainable. This allowed them to keep the critical information far out of view. but there have already been many lawsuits in Germany and Switzerland. It's your responsibility to do the right thing. But don't trust me fighting for our climate for decates, trust Eon. They have a trustworthy history right?
#StopSilvertowTunnel
They just keep repeating what the other say the entire time!