7:25 "But on the whole, when it comes to two-level trains, the deck's stacked against them." Come for the historical information on trains, stay for the puns.
The RER A in Paris is the busiest commuter line in Europe and runs double decker trains only. Essential factors are of course a large loading gauge, but also the coaches' configuration, with 3 large double doors each and a high proportion of standing area. That being said, it's stilll murder at rush hour !
The Dutch states railway did lease in 1978 for a year a SNCF VB2N set to test the posibility for using doubledecker trains on the heavily congested commuter lines. The Dutch railwaysystem is more an Urban S Bahn type railwaysystem then a classic long distance railway At first passengers weren't used to use the upperdeck at all. Also the small doors/staircases and the 2-3 seat arangment wasn't liked. The VB2N set was also to heavy for fast accelleration and breaking between frequent stops. After that Test lessons were learned and DDM-1 was designed and build. Alsthom in France did build special locomotives NS class 1700 (SNCF class BB7200 on steroids) The carriages were finaly assembeld by Talbot and Bombardier and put into service in 1985. They were so succesfull that early 1990's the 2nd improved generation was ordered The 3th generation became an EMU version of doubledecker trains. Nowadays passengers prefer the upper deck on the doubledecker trains.
The RER also has a max frequency of a train every 3 minutes (not all day of course) so the, lower frequency, thing is not becaus of having a double decker, at least not if you desigh the trains well so the only real reason, that can be addressed but won't in the UK, is the loading gauge.
@@AL5520 yes, a large vestibule and large doors also really help a lot. As a Dutchie I also traveled a lot on the DDM's and it's EMU succesors that @obelic71 mentions. These trains, especially the DDM's have rather spacious vestibules and wide doors. Something which is in fact made possible off-course by the trains being double decker so that space can be used for that while retaining an acceptable capacity.
@@RC534 absolutely though much less efficient for (un)loading passengers. Only RER B remains with single deck trains but, as they have been telling us for the past ten years, that shall change very soon.
@personalsigh, If a philosopher ever calls you ‘a real Kant’, that’s a reference to Immanuel Kant, the Enlightenment thinker. It’s a compliment, not an insult!
@@simonbrunning-zc2lh Before the advent of the "convertible" carriages, GWR carriages were significantly wider. When broad gauge was abolished, what it left was a huge distance between running lines- what is the "6ft" everywhere else, was more like the 10ft on GWR lines. Over time, this became eroded by widened platforms and realignment of tracks, but the space, in width at least, was there.
@@phaasch They weren't a lot wider, Brunel's logic was that having the weight between the wheels would be more stable. And besides, height is the issue, rather than width, and they certainly weren't any higher
I've ridden double-decker trains in Sydney, but it's clear the network was built from the ground up to accomodate them. When you get on the train you walk on to a mezzanine at the end of the car, steps up to the upper deck and down to the lower deck. Later: I stand corrected. The Aussies got it right the first time around. More power to them! 🇦🇺 I know they have issues with different track gauges to this day, dating back to railway construction in different colonies.
This is a very common design for modern double deck trains. The doors are at the end of the car, and that area is located above the train's bogie. You then descend to the lower deck, which is situated below platform height and between the bogies.
As it stands train capacity is not the limiting factor for Eurostar - terminal and border control capacity is. Unless and until the UK joins the Schengen area, double deck stock cannot be considered
One of the possible new entrants to this route has proposed using double deck trains, hopefully opening Stratford to international travel as well as using Ebbsfleet & Ashford too.
Eurostar is a scam. They would never do anything to make it a bit better, let alone cheaper. I'm really looking forward to opening up the tunnel to competition, normal fares and possibly other routes would be great.
The Dutch railways used to have double deckers on commuter routes (DDM and DD-AR), even before putting them on the InterCity routes. The boarding time issue was very simply solved by just having very wide double-leaf doors that slid open quickly. So that’s not a reason why they couldn’t be used in the UK, it’s really just the loading gauge.
Came here to mention the Netherlands and Germany. While most commuter trains in the Netherlands are single-decker, NS makes extensive use of double-deckers on intercity routes, and the added capacity can very much be felt. DB Regio, on the other hand, runs hundreds of double-deckers on commuter services, with great success.
Side note: the Loading Gauge in the UK is why, although Challenger tanks can be loaded onto a train in Dover, and transported all the way to the Russian border by train, and although their bases in Salisbury Plain have loading ramps, they have to be moved by road from Tidworth to Dover.
The loading gauge was explained in the video and is the height of the Loco/ Coach from travk level and the width of the Coach/Loco, The challenger tanks are more than likely transported in ythe UK by road due to no rail facity to load them and if they were going to Ukrain it is the only wasy of getting them there quickley, but NATO tanks in Europe move either on the rear of an Army Lorry, under their own power or on freight trains but Tanks can be transported on trains on the UK network
@@peterwilliamallen1063 Challenger 2 tanks are typically 3.5 metres in width, sometimes wider with additional armour Rail lines running into Dover use the Network Rail W6A loading gauge, which allows a maximum width of only 2.8 metres.
@@peterwilliamallen1063 It's kind of a chicken/egg situation. The original locomotives and coaches were built relatively small, so the infrastructure around them (bridges, gap from track to platform) was also built quite small. But then subsequent generations of locos and coaches, and later multiple units, couldn't be built any bigger without a programme of increasing bridge clearances. And while the Great Western was larger than some other railways of the era, it is still small for today's purposes. One of the challenges for the Great Western electrification programme was a road bridge over the railway, designed originally by Brunel, at Steventon in Oxfordshire. As a heritage structure, it was placed on the list of historic buildings (a 'listed building'). That means it can't be modified. At other such locations the track was lowered to provide the necessary clearance; however, this bridge is very close to a level crossing. At level crossings, the overhead line is raised to a greater-than-normal height to provide more clearance for road vehicles and separation of high-power cables from things that don't like high voltages, such as people. Unfortunately that meant the track couldn't be lowered under the bridge, because then the gradient would be too large - the cable would have to rise from the low level under the bridge to the higher level over the level crossing in too short a distance. So Network Rail proposed replacing the bridge. But that meant getting consent from the local population, which was denied. Ultimately a lot of work was done to model the exact behaviour of the pantograph (the current collector that lives on the roof of the train) to confirm that there would be enough clearance, and that the gradient would not be too severe, to allow trains to run over the level crossing and under the bridge at 110mph. Not as good as 125mph, obviously, but much better than the 40mph that was the original design rule. For more see www.railengineer.co.uk/steventon-bridge-overcoming-the-obstacle/ This kind of thing shows why double-deck trains are extremely unlikely even for long-distance high-speed services!
Tbh, the RER A is the proof that double-decker trains can work for commuter trains. It's the most used line in Europe and yes, the stairs and limited sets of doors (compared to the space available) make the train take a bit longer at station but the drawback is worth it for the extra capacity... if your line can accommodate it properly, since the RER A still manages to run trains every 2 minutes thanks to partial automation. Maybe for the Elizabeth line, in a few decades...? But I understand they're not suitable for most the UK.
Even if the Elizabeth line tunnels were for double deckers, they could not then run beyond the portals as the rest of the line is on conventional routes, unless of course you rebuilt them at massive cost. HS1 and HS2 are the only European guage lines and only the new bits. There was a plan to run double deckers from London to Birmingham on HS2 at one time.
@@itechcircle9410I live on the RER A and use it daily. It works remarkably well. And actually, it's the switch of its rolling stock to full double-decker (with the introduction of the MI09) that saved it.
as repular commuter here in Zürich/Switzerland i can tell the Double Decker trains have the big pro of additional seating places, but the entering and leaving is is always a pain in the you know where... there is always one last passenger at "my" door who comes down the stairs as whole Switzerland Trains will wait for him (or her) but overall i love them to use...
In my opinion there is a huge advantage. If I stick on for most of the route, I can pick the upper deck with much less disturbance. If I travel only a few stations, I stay at the lower deck.
Just noticed how fast the pan drops on the Thameslink train. Jeez that was quick, thought it would be more controlled. Cheers Jago, you are the pantograph to my third rail.
Funny that the experimental double decker was called the 4DD, because Melbourne Australia also had a failed experimental double decker called the 4D back in the 90s. Clearly if we want to get double decker trains to work we need to come up with a better naming scheme.
It was called the 4D as short for Double Deck Development & Demonstration and only failed due to how it was designed and built from its systems rather than it having two decks on a rail system that has only had single-level rolling stock.
I travelled on the double deckers between Charing Cross and Dartford in the late 1960s. They were fine to travel on and there was no problem getting on and off - at the lower deck - as there were plenty of doors. But it was slow getting down the narrow staircase from the top deck. Often people would start to get on before the upper deck passengers had managed to get downstairs. So people simply stood at the lower deck - which made it even more difficult for passengers to get down from the upper deck. As I travelled all the way to Dartford I simply stayed on the upper deck until the bottom emptied as it was the end of the trip.
My father caught these a few time from Bexleyheath to London Bridge. He told me that travelling on the upper deck was the only time he had ever felt claustrophobic. Once their failure had been established, BR lengthened platforms to take 10 coaches, the also had the expense of modifying a few bridges.
They weren't so bad that they were unusable, (and the SR was chronically short of suburban rolling stock in the 1950s and 1960s as the earliest suburban units wore out faster than replacements could be built) but they weren't good enough to build any more.
So do I, Pete - at school in the early 1960s, commuting from Abbey Wood to London Bridge. When recalling this in the past I was listened to sceptically, such that I began to think I'd imagined it! Excellent work as ever from Jago.
Travelled on this in early 1960s Charing Cross to Dartford line via Bexleyheath although normally it ran on the loop line to Dartford. As stated in video problem was the carriage was divided into small compartments and they had individual slam doors and it got unpleasantly hot in warmer weather as no open windows in upstairs area . Generally were unsuitable and unpopular in such a busy commuter route
I vaguely recall managing one journey on a 4-DD as a young teenager and being fairly unimpressed. They weren't built for comfort. Nor speed, come to that.
Back in the 60s, I got the train to school from London Bridge - I was on the wrong line for the double deckers - but most days I'd see a double decker waiting at the signals. I always fancied trying going on one but never found out what route they were on.
@ - generally they ran on the loop line CX to Dartford via Bexley with few on Nth Kent line ( Woolwich Erith etc) but I definitely had 1 or 2 trips on the Bexleyheath line but happily that was it - double deckers of that design were not suitable for a busy commuter line , in that era in the Southern region the slam door trains needed checking before departure whereas in the Eastern region Liverpool Street to Shenfield their single deck trains had sliding doors and seats in open coaches rather than coaches with compartment seating. Obviously early 1960s not a good time for rail customers/ passengers as with Dr Beeching in situe the attitude of staff was often unhelpful due to low morale perhaps understandable and I was happy when I had opportunity to cease commuting by public transport. However to this day I like trains as they don’t make me suffer from motion sickness and would choose to pay for train ride rather than go by coach or bus even if a lot cheaper.
Whato Jago, You've done it again. Rightly given Marples a bad mention but it was not him who closed the Great Central. The line was closed by the following Labour Government, the so-called friend of the railways. Which minister signed off the closure we will never know as the Great Central closure files have been "lost". Don't forget I write as the former Chief Archivist to the British Railways Board and handled the London Midland Region's closure files (they're are now at Kew). Apart from that, again another good video.
Labour and Ernest Marple were both in it together, they push for the Great Central line to be closed for the love of Roads and just look at the State of our Roads and Railways, Roads are fill with vehicles for all the motoring lovers and the Railways can't cope with the amount passengers commuting every year. The Railways needs improving and expanding too.
At the time there was no good reason to keep the Great Central, it was just a duplicate route carrying very little traffic with the expense of maintenance. The tragedy was that the route wasn't safeguarded so that it could easily be reinstated. It would have provided either a good alignment for HS2 or a Continental-gauge freight route that left the main lines free for passenger trains. Having said that, it is astonishing how much time and cost it has taken to rebuild the Bletchley-Bicester link, which had freight trains (and occasional passenger specials) running until the 1980s at least and was not severed at all.
We have double-decker trains here in Austria (the Westbahn trains), and loading and unloading seems to be pretty efficient - in my experience, they really don't hang around for long on at the stations on the busy line running between Vienna via Linz and Salzburg to Innsbruck! Having said that, I have to admit that it's just my opinion; I haven't actually timed them! (And I love riding on the top deck with a view of the Alps.) The Westbahn double-deckers run on the same lines as lots of single-deckers (including Austria's ÖBB trains and trains from other countries.
When the trains have 5 min between each other like in Austria or German, the 10-15% longer boarding time doesn't matter (also the major boarding time would happen in stations where you already have a huge load, and when I see how in Hamburg many people literally try to get into the ICE in ONE door (so that everybody has to go past the whole train) instead of using all doors, I know the major problem are stupid passengers). The argument of Jago is that in his examples the rush hour time gab between trains is too small. But: I would argue, that this only is the case for specific routes, not overall. Also what Jago doesn't seem to understand: We in Europe don't use double decker trains on metro lines! We are not stupid. The only "S-Bahn" that does that are Zürich and Dresden and they are more like regional train services, not like a typical metro. We use the double decker trains for regional express services. That are services with LESS trains per hour that stop LONGER per station anyway.
0:14 I've never expected seeing a Double decker of the argentinian Sarmiento Line here, I took one of those when I was little and it was a fun experience. The Sarmiento Line has a broad gauge but its the second most congested line in the country, they didn't last much. I don't miss the TBA franchise though, except for that nice paintwork.
Here in Sydney, our ENTIRE Metropolitan commuter network was for many many years purely a double decker service. The first Tulloch cars were delivered in 1964... And some still in service well into the early 2000's. Their replacements had been solely DD stock with S&T sets, C sets, V sets, A&B sets, M sets, Waratahs and the new Maryiung sets. But double deckers were THE only type found on commuter services to as far south as Kiama, West to Lithgow and North to Newcastle. But.... The brand new driverless Metro system (essentially a turn up and go ...no timetable service) is fully single deck
I'm 70 and I have a vague memory of seeing this train from my Grandparent's house in Sidcup. Their house backed onto a park which ran alongside the track. At night you could see the double decker lights as the train sped past.
I wonder whether I'm the only person watching your video who travelled on the Southern's double decker train, as a child. I also saw it in service two or three more times,.always joined together to make an 8 car set.. We lived on the Bexleyheath line to Dartford. Dwell time at London Bridge in the peak must have been a challenge. I think, in latter years at least, it was only used in peak hours, and mainly on Blackfriars/Holborn Viaduct services, which my father used.
Love seeing the GO train at 2:13. Many fond childhood memories on those. Double-decker trains are very common in North America - I guess one benefit of our big loading gauge. The specific coach pictured, the Bombardier Bi-level, is used all over the US and Canada, though GO Transit (pictured) is by far their largest operator. I think GO alleviates the dwell time issue because their train are so huge, with such high capacity, most people can sit down and you don't have to swim through the aisle to get in or out.
There is also the issue of platform width. A large swath of people alighting in a double decker will require a wide platform to accommodate them. Either you expand the station or you have to reduce the number of platforms. Toronto Union station had to reduce the number of platforms to create wider platforms for safety, which brings another set of problems.
Plus GO trains run at such lower frequencies - at the moment, a line with two trains per hour is considered good. So the longer dwell times don't actually reduce the number of trains that can run. (It remains unclear whether the future electric trains will be double-deckers, though even with the massive expansion that's planned, we're still talking about 15-minute frequencies.)
I travelled a few times on the double-decker, from Well Hall Eltham up to Charing X; my father much more often as a commuter. He disliked the upper deck intensely. Exiting in the rush-hour was a pain.
Double decker trains work quite nicely on GO Transit, the commuter rail service in the Toronto area (that's the green and white train pictured in the video), but we have two major differences: a much taller loading gauge, and our most frequent service is every 15 minutes so no worries about a train being held up by the dwell time of the train ahead of it.
We have the same green and white trains in South Florida. When the train service was started in South Florida the trains were actually borrowed from Toronto. The service was started as an experiment to see if they would be accepted. They probed very popular. The South Florida TriRail is still TO's green and white.
We have quite a few double decker services here in Germany, but they aren’t really used for the examples in the video. Thameslink or the Elizabeth line, operate akin to our S-Bahns, which are all single-deckers to maximize throughput at stations. But for many longer running services the benefit of added seating capacity outweighs the longer dwell times. Also, unless the train is absolutely packed or many people want to get off and on at the same station, the difference in dwell times isn’t that big. People just get used to treating it more like a long distance train and get to the door before the train stops.
Ok here goes. The 4DD does not really have anything based on the SUB. Very little is shared between the designs. The only things to my knowledge where the traction motors (on some), cab front window (opening) and the power controller. The chassis are a lower than SUB, at the front where the cab is the upper level is about the same height as a sub but where it lowers down was designed to gain that little extra height inside. Which means the centre buffers are lower than standard emu carriages. Also the body side profile is straight to gain as much space as possible, the sub was curved to gain the extra seat per compartment The braking system was unique to the DD using Westinghouse EP self‑lapping brakes so it could only connect up to itself. From what I understand for why it was kept in service so long was someone at BR (a accountant probably) said it needed to pay for itself. One other point to mention which was missed was the force ventilation system which was not very effective. I have been in one of the carriages on a hot day (private site) and it is like a greenhouse. Preservation, original plan to preserve unit 4001 but this was already in the process of being scrapped, 4002 was available still (both had electrically been stripped), a minimum of 3 carriages had to preserved to move the vehicle by rail as the two motors could not be connected up as they do not have buffer (rubbing plates instead, could be done with modification), a flyer based appeal was handed out (at the time) as was preserved at the South Eastern Steam Centre by 1972. the steam centre closed in 1976, to cut the long story short BR wanted the owner out (Some stuff had already been moved elsewhere) and called in the scrapmen about 8 years later, local residents where alerted what was going on as fireless loco northmet was being cut up and the middle carriage was burnt. The two motor carriages where moved elsewhere (one to Northampton and another private initially), by the mid 90s one of the motor coaches was transferred between private site, only more recently has the other carriage moved down to said private site. If you ever get the chance, i would recommend a visit to the NRM, they have a colour painting of the cutaway carriage and quite a few bits in the archive. I do have a video on my channel when the tree was removed from the front of one carriages. Sources, blood and custard, nrm archives, steam centre guide book
I commute on the Chicagoland Metra trains, which are double decker. The stairs are narrow and somewhat spiral in layout, meaning that only able-bodied commuters with no luggage can manage them. The headroom upstairs is maybe around 5 feet. The lower deck has the walkway down the middle, with no middle ceiling, while above the seats on the lower deck, the headroom is again around 5 feet. The part I don't understand is the steps up into the train from the platform. The lower level is again the magic 5 feet from the platform, which is no fun with baggage, or my case, a bicycle. The whole system is slow and old fashioned, which is sweet in a Polar Express sort of way, with the guards still wearing the traditional uniform and hats, but its miserable when you just want to get to work, and it takes forever because people struggle with the steps up into the train!
I'd sooner they brought back some of the branch lines. I can't imagine double decker trains. I do like our double decker London buses though, I enjoyed that video as well. May your Christmas be decked, doubly, with Holly and cheer. Have a good one. 🎄
One more point is that train platforms in the UK is generally quite high. For example Stadler FLIRT trains in Europe and Trentitalia Rock, the platform is almost as low as the floor of the lower deck.
Interesting video Jago, I hadn't realised there was so much space wasted under each high level compartment I actually came across a 4DD driving coach at Ashford about 98. I was dumped on some abandoned sidings where CTRL is now. It was actually in reasonable condition, it was with a birdcage brake possibly SECR I think both got saved. We were stabling 37s there for dungeness route learning Cheers Russ
Someone moves to one side, someone lets one go first, an old lady pushes past made my laugh so much - plenty of experience of trying to get on and off public transport and that is just a massive part of it. One perk of driving, I don't miss positioning myself to get to the door as we approach the required stop
One problem I have heard about the SR double deckers was that passengers on the lower deck complained that they could smell the feet of passengers on the upper deck. 😊
There are other issues aside of just the loading gauge. For instance here in Germany double deck trains have been introduced to increase commuter and inter-city capacity, as in France. They were primarily introduced so as to avoid lengthening platforms. Double Deck coaches are enormously heavy, a bring with them headaches for structural engineers and locomotives. The permanent way has to be strengthened, especially on routes of 160 km/h, and locomotives need more horse- and braking power to cater for such services. Rightly or wrongly, I can’t imagine such trains being developed for the uk. Bridges, tunnels and the extremely tight loading gauge just couldn’t allow it to happen.
In 1981 I travelled from N Orleans to Houston & Los Angeles on Amtrak's Sunset Limited and from Seattle to Chicago on the Empire Builder, both of which were double-decked 'Superliners'...perfect for gazing at scenery as we trundled along, never more than 55mph but usually nearer 45...a grand experience...dgp/uk
It was strange that Bulleid didn‘t use the below-sole-bar level. Most double deck coaches in Europe only work because the lower deck sits between the bogies, and single level has to be above the bogies. The Aeroliner 3000 concept did this, but because UK trains can‘t crack the 4m mark, even the Aeroliner design needs to fold the aisle of the lower deck into the aisle of the upper deck. The Görlitz double deck coach is around 4.60 m above the railhead, which allows for two decks of approximately 2 m headroom. The use of the below-sole-bar-space means that electrical and mechanical equipment needs to be crammed in, in the roof of the single deck portions at the ends of the coach and under the stairs.
Most double deck stock here is locomotive-hauled, so there is no need for traction equipment on the carriages. Your example is the Class 445 Bombardier Twindexx, which has 6 standard non-motored carriages (no equipment) and 2 motored carriages in a sort of HST-format.
Here in Switzerland we have double-decker trains on both long-distance and commuter lines (and just about everything in between). They are characterized by having large doors to facilitate people getting on and off quickly. They're all low-level step free, also making movement fast.
The best design double decker trains I have seen anywhere are the much loved Sydney suburban and regional electric double deckers, which have been used since the 60's. They carry a high proportion of seated in comfort passengers in 8 car sets, with a normal capacity of 1200/peak 2150 at top speed of 143 km/h. The design is as near perfect as you can get. There are two platform level entries at both ends of the carriage leading into a side seat area for people in wheelchairs, parents with prams or cyclists. Angled short stairs lead up and down to the central double decker section which has a 3/2 seat arrangement with a central aisle. The seats flip easily so you can choose which direction to face and arrange the seats into single, 2, 4, 3 or 6 seat arrangements. The 4 ultrawide sliding double doors (two on each side of the carriage) pop out and away to allow fast entry/exit. They are fast, almost silent and comfortable for most passengers for the sometimes long commutes. Top deck is great for the scenic lines, north, west and south through the mountains or along the coast. Sydney's new Metro lines have moved to slower 100km/hr driverless single deck currently 6 car sets, future 8 car sets having 1,539 passenger capacity. The Metro sets are faster loading and faster accelerating, with a shorter dwell time and much more frequent schedule, so effectively faster in use for most passengers who do not need to worry about a timetable as the trains are 4-10 minutes apart. They are designed for majority standing which is a big change from the double deckers.
I grew up in a Chinese city full of single decker buses, and I'm so used to them I still prefer the lower deck of buses in the UK. Later I moved to the UK full of single decker trains, and I'm so used to them I still prefer the lower deck of trains in mainland Europe. (Feels faster)
2:16 Hey those are my trains! I had the privilege of riding your trains when I was over in England a few years back, and I definitely have a case of rail-envy. We Canadians have much work to do. Much love from Toronto, Jago. Keep up the amazing work.
Honestly I don't think saying that double deckers can't work because of longer dwell times is really accurate. Here in the Netherlands we use double deckers on a lot of longer distance trains. But what we actually have compared to the average semi long distance train in the UK are large balconies and large doors. For some reason British intercity trains still have tiny balconies and only single doors per side. Yeah you're going to have issues with crowds if you have to walk in and out single file, but on our VIRM and DDZ double deckers you can easily have three people exiting at the same time. We still have one or two minute stops with this setup. For some reason the UK keeps holding on to single doors on their higher speed trains and two sets of double doors on stopping trains. We moved to three sets of doors on stopping trains in the 70s! Dwell times are aweful in the UK not just because of overcrowding, but also because some design choices are just wrong for efficiency.
Dwell times are lengthy on UK commuter trains. People just don't seem be able to get in and out quickly and I believe that this contributes to delays. I remember my commutes falling further behind schedule after each stop. More sets of doors would certainly help as would less of a delay for them to open. I wouldn't want to go back to slam door trains but I don't remember them taking so long for people to get on/off at intermediate stations.
I've heard New Zealand has imported a few carriages from Britain and used them on their network, which is 1067mm narrow gague. So yeah, Britain's loading gague is really small.
Loading gauge and track gauge are two different things and it's possible for networks of the same track gauge to vary wildly in loading gauge. In any case, NZ does have a smaller loading gauge than GB. Japanese trains (which like NZ's also run on Cape Gauge) are slightly less tall, but also slightly wider than GB trains.
@n.bastians8633 I know loading gauge and track gauge are different, but generally narrow gauge railways have a smaller loading gauge than standard or broad gauge railways.
Around 150 BR MK 2 carriages were exported to New Zealand from the Mid 1990s to mid 2000s (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_British_Rail_Mark_2_carriage). They were able to fit with in the NZ loading gauge by using 750mm dia wheels (in narrow gauge bogies) rather than the larger (900mm?) wheels used in their original standard gauge bogies.
Thanks for the video Jago! I found it interesting hearing the British perspective of double decker trains as in Sydney, Australia our commuter rail network is run entirely by double decker stock
2:13 - A GO (short for, "Government of Ontario") Train, the commuter service in the Greater Toronto Area, of Ontario, Canada. GO Train service began in 1967, with single-deck coaches, on a single route, between Pickering in the east, and Oakville in the west, with Toronto Union Station in the middle. Ridership increased so dramatically that double-decker coaches (white & chromium-green) were introduced in the late 1970s. The newer coaches are white & grass-green.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to the punmeister of choo choos! Thank you for your awesome and chuckle worthy content Jago. Always learn something new.
FYI: A standard Bombardier/Alstom "lozenge" bi-level cars are 15'11" (4.85 m) tall. Trying to cut 4 feet off that isn't possible, not without posting "One must be this SHORT to ride this train" signs everywhere. I can testify that these trains feel roomy, even if one can reach the ceiling.
@@markstamp3937 That's us isn't it? "Let's plan two high speed route into London but... Not link them up." Er is HS2 still going to Manchester? Hasn't that been cancelled as well yet? We will be lucky if it ever reaches Watford at this rate!
No it would not because these HS2 trains would not of been able to travel on other existing UK lines built to the UK loading gauge which HS2 trains will have to do to go to Liverpool, Manchester and Scotland
@@markstamp3937 The use of trains from Manchester via Birmingham New Street and via HS1 to Paris was talked about in British Rail days, it wa droped due to lack of interest and pathing problems and the lenghth of the class 373 Eurostar trains not fitting into UK platforns and was dropped, when HS2 was planned it has never been planned to join to HS1 to take trains to Paris, the idea is what you call Chinese Whispers when some one suggested it years go and it got out of control. When will every one realise all HS2 is, is a dmestic Hi Speed passenger line connecting London Euston to Birmingham City Centre and Manchester, Liverpool and Scotland being constructed as a new line to replace the failed upgrade od the Southern Half of the West Coast Main Line from Stafford to London Euston by moving the vast majority of Avanti West Coast hi speed trains onto HS2 thus allowing more capacity onthe existing WCML for other passenger services and Freight Services plus like HS1, HS2 will be a one operator line being operated only by Avnti West Coast Trains
The Sydney trains provide disabled spots in their vestibules, where you board the trains. Other commuters can go up or down the stairs to the other levels, but many just stay in the vestibules for short trips. New South Wales also uses electric double deckers on its intercity route to Newcastle and Wollongong, that have accessible toilets in the disabled access vestibules.
I travelled from Rotterdam to Schipol on a double-decker and it was brilliant. You get a much better view of the countryside, but for me it was a frozen wasteland at the time. One thing you can say about German and Dutch railways, you can set your watch by the times they leave the stations.
I travel extensively on German railways,and inter city trains are notorious for never being on time,try waiting in Brandenburg for 2 hours in the snow freezing for 2 trains that never turned up, without any announcements. Dutch railways yes, but not Deutsche bahn.
@@ErnestParker-e9t Yep, on my visits to Germany I gradually learnt a new phrase from its frequent appearances, "etwa spaten". German inter-city trains once had little booklets with details of all the connections en route including platforms - fine, but when the train was 20 minutes late all those connections disappeared.
A really interesting video and expertly presented. Along with the clips shown to accompany it i thoroughly enjoyed it. And something that is rare these days with a lot of info vids on You Tube, felt that i had actually learnt something. Many thanks for the upload.
The 4DD might have been better going Waterloo - Surbiton - Woking fast shuttles moving lots of people in one go to places where not many folk would board
The complete double deck operation on the RER A is a relatively recent innovation (which I think required some infrastructure changes at the ends of some of the branches). It used to be quite common to have older single deck units. Trying to board a short formed single deck unit to Rueil Malmaison at La Defense at 5.30pm was like the Tokyo Subway. I quickly learned the French for “get off my f****** foot”. In fact, the same experience can be still had at Chatelet on Line B in the morning heading towards CDG, with added baggage.
I have travelled on the 'Double Decker (4DD)'. As a child I liked it and always wanted to sit upstairs. I agree about the longer station dwell times but would ask if the time taken for all passengers to alight/board would have been any longer than if a Class 411 (4CEP) unit was used which was not unheard of on the Dartford route. Another problem was the all closed compartment nature of the train. With normal compartments, nervous passengers could at east see who was in the compartment before they boarded but on the DD such passengers had no idea who could be lurking upstairs.
Simple answer: tunnels Also think of the trains you cannot get on as people don't move down. Buses are the same. There are seats upstairs but you cannot get on as people do not move.
@@CarolineFord1 No, I dodge around a bit letting people get past me. This also works well in the RER D trains in Paris. I never take a seat in those, just stand back from the doors a little.
GO Transit in the Toronto region, Sydney Trains and the Zurich S-Bahn are the exceptions to the advice that you shouldn't use double-decker trains for commuter service. The latter has other wacky features like first class on commuter trains, tram-trains and light rail, and metre-gauge lines.
I forgot about Toronto and Zürich and you forgot the Paris RER. They have the most appropriate double deckers for commuter services as they have 3 doors per carriage.
Well, double decker EMUs are also hard to build. Here in Russia we had Stadler KISS trains as both suburban trains and airport express. The esults were...mixed, let's be honest. Our RZD company also uses loco-hauled dd carrieges, but those had all kinds of technical issues during their first year. Some passengers had problems with 2nd floor coupes and stairs.
The teething problems of the double-decker cars have been largely solved, and now they are actively used on many express trains (negating the slow boarding problem: people on intermediate stops can prepare in advance for their exit, and on terminal stops loading speed doesn't really matter that much because they have a lot more tracks so other trains aren't slowed down, and of course there are no standing passengers).
A few years ago I rode on a Metra train from Union Station in Chicago to Buffalo Grove Illinois, and the cars were double-decker like the GO trains in Canada.
What's the truncated line @01:14 ? It looks like a former junction ,with a double track line coming from the right ,and he line from the left joining it and then disappearing into the two tunnel entrances ?
Smithfield Market / Snow Hill between Farringdon / Barbican / City Thameslink looking south east-ish. You can see one of the Barbican tower blocks towards the left. The rear windows of Smiths of Smithfield overlook those tracks.
I never knew we had dabbled in double decker trains in the UK. Proper full size double decker trains need bridges and overhead lines raising though, presumably these extra costs outweigh any benefits. Great interesting video Jago and was very nice to see some EMR footage included, thanks Jago.
@@paulketchupwitheverything767 They were great back when you could completely walk from one end to the other over multiple carriages. Unfortunately, the linkage tunnels proved to be maintenance-heavy and were welded closed from 2006/7 onwards.
In Japan, they have commuter line trains such as the JR Tokaido line and Joban line which use conventional single deck coaches for standard class and double deck coaches for first class (green car), where the double deck coaches share the same loading guage as the single deck coaches. I've always wondered if this could be possible on UK trains.
5:00. The USA had similar trains to these. Long Island Railroad had some similar the the seats were not enclosed, everyone could socialize up an down so to speak. And this arrangement reminds of the duplex type of sleeping cars in America as well.
The thing that fascinated me on visiting Japan are the *partial* double-decker trains. Ones with 10 cars, 8 of which are single-deck, the two in the middle two-deck. Fascinating stuff to experience. They also had double-decker Shinkansen at a time, which are sadly no longer in service. Now that’s something spectacular.
Yep, the green cars! They've just introduced them on the Chuo Line which runs from Tokyo station all the way out to the mountains in Takao. I think you can ride them for free until sometime in spring
@@lil_swarlettemajor Japanese rail operators tend to have one timetable revision per year in mid March, the Chuo Line green card will probably require payment from that timetable change
And yes it's great that the Chuo Line will now have green cars, matching all the other major JR lines out of Tokyo. They're a good option if you're desperate for a seat after a long day at work :)
6:13 if you think double decker trains don't work on commuter services I invite to you visit zurich (I know we don't have the same size restrictions here but anyway)
They will have to prove that the train can be cleared in the channel tunnel fast enough to avoid danger to passengers if a train catches fire, in particular given double deck TGVs only have one way out of each carriage on the bottom deck.
Yet, many other countries have double deck commuter trains - the nearest example being the RER in Paris. Loading and unloading speeds can be as much to do with the number and size of doors - lots of big doors means fast loading, but fewer seats. Part of the reason that the upper seats on the DD4s were unpopular was that the upstairs windows couldn't be opened so, with the lack of AC in those days, it got very hot and stuffy up there, especially as half the passengers would be smoking!
The accessibility of double deckers, at least the ones I have used is appalling as well. There were a double decker TGV btw. Calais Fretun and Lille Europe/Gare du Nord. It was an absolute nightmare. The train were crowded people had to stand, sit on the stairs, at each door a rail worker stood to squeeze people in. They were fairly short trains and maybe longer trains wld have been better.
The double deck TGV are expanding across the french network and they're getting rid of a lot of the single deck TGV as they get old. I think it's sad personally.
I think a lot of the utility depends on the passengers co-operating. In France. My experience on the Toulon TGV was similar to yours, the train before had been cancelled and the result was the storming of the Bastille.
@@khidorahian it is rare that I put Die Bahn above any other rail company (for obvious reasons), but I do prefer their double deckers on commuter routes, to the double decker TGV.
Another interesting video Jago, thanks. Down here in Sydney, the electric, city and suburban, trains are actually triple deckers as, apart from the main upper and lower decks (some with fixed seating and others with seat-backs that can be swung to face the direction of travel) , most carriages have a middle deck of four transverse seats facing each other close to the entrance/exit doors which are (I think) primarily for less mobile passengers and there are actually one or two of these seats designated for disabled passengers. In some carriages, three of the adjacent seats on either or both sides of these level access seats can be folded up to permit wheelchairs secure access (stall still need to place a ramp between the train and the platform for egress). The ends of end carriages (with driver or guard end cabins) do not have an eight-seat middle deck (although some have one or more single seats) and, on suburban trains serving country routes, some carriages nearer the middle of the train have a toilet and handbasin. Ian (POHM)
I agree, double decker trains are very much needed here in the U.K. For instance, a double decker LU Train sounds certainly interesting! Also, I really enjoy your videos! Very informative and very interesting! ❤
Thanks Jago - this was exactly what I wanted to know about this subject. As an Australian living in London for the past 20 odd years, it had made me wonder (I knew all about the history part and the logisitcs bit). And as we have in Sydney, double deckers are used because of the distance and the crowds... of course. But we also have destinations on the same line not always stopping etc. I am sure that the "legacy" issue can be rectified... like how copper cables for broadband was useless... so it is without a stretch of the imagination that the lines could eventually be upgraded (they do a lot of maintenance, so why not at the same time add in a new line)... and that brings me to the HS2 - why wouldn't this be a good starting point? I am answering my own questions in my head of course.... Ah, England.... it is eccentric still, and you've gotta stay that way!
From my personal experience traveling across Europe on various different styles of train I found double deck trains very good. Loading and unloading time was equal or less than our single deck trains. People stepping on go up or down to sit and this reduces the bottleneck of people stacking bags or getting sat down.
I don’t believe loading time will be as fast as a single deck train unless the doors are really big and entrance has lots of space. But I think loading time is less important for faster commuter trains than a metro. You hardly see double deck metros.
With wide stairs, enough headroom, and space for luggage, they can be just as good and comfortable as any single-deck train. The TGV Duplex units for example have a very low ceiling downstairs though, and they're noticeably more claustrophobic than the already small single deck TGVs. Double deckers in Germany can be really quite good, and the Dutch and Belgians heavily use them in IC traffic. There, the comfort and luggage space is only slightly lesser compared to single-deck IC stock.
That’s really not at all the case when they are busy - it takes significantly longer for people to get on and off, and you have the pain of people having to push upstairs and then downstairs before realising that reason everyone is standing on the stairs is because there are no seats.
@ They’re a real pain when you have luggage though - trekking up and down stairs with a suitcase is never pleasant. Same as the issues for anyone with movement difficulties.
It may (not) surprise you to know that Bulleid wasn't completely deterred by the Leader's failure, nor was it the end of his railway career. After moving to CIÉ (the Irish state rail operator) in 1949 (initally as consulting mechanical engineer, ascending to the position of chief mechanical engineer the following year) he ended up building CC1 aka the Turf Burner in 1957. Similar in concept to the Leader, but with the cab smack in the middle as opposed to at each end among other various differences. It barely lasted a year before withdrawal (Bulleid retired in May 1958), having exhibited many of the same issues that bedeviled Leader. It never hauled a train in frontline service iirc. With all that in mind, he did introduce mainline diesel power to Ireland's railways in the mid/late 50s, but as with his 'Spamcan' Pacifics, the initial results were mixed. He sourced the locos (94 in total) from Metrovick with Crossley HST-V8 powerplants, which if you know your British (and Western Australian) railway history, were unreliable from the start. CIE would eventually have all of them rebuilt with powerplants from General Motors/EMD.
While rather specific, A video on the noise that the Thameslink makes would be awesome. I've always liked the pulsing noise they make while on 3rd rail DC power.
In the mean time you might like to search youtube for 'How electric trains work and why they make interesting sounds' which covers some very similar trains.
As a child I rode in one, Plumstead to Charing Cross. Mum and Dad downstairs and me and my sister upper compartment accessed by stairs in centre of compartment
Here in Denmark we know, that a double decker train is only good, if the upper deck stops at the same stations and go to the same destination as the lower deck. Otherwise ... forget it.
There was a triple decker train, but that's another storey.
The top deck was a Ladies only space.That's a J.K. Rowling triple decker Ladies spaces joke !!
@@SIMONWINTER-m6d You can both go and stand in the corner.
@@mikeball6182 can I hover?
@@SIMONWINTER-m6d So long as you stay outside of the window
@@mikeball6182 Not only is freezing cold out there but there's no corner !!
7:25 "But on the whole, when it comes to two-level trains, the deck's stacked against them."
Come for the historical information on trains, stay for the puns.
Well with Jago, behind the main topic there's always another storey to be told.
There was another one just after that one! You are the pressure ventilation to my 4DDs upper deck. Or am crediting JH with a pun tyoo far?
The RER A in Paris is the busiest commuter line in Europe and runs double decker trains only. Essential factors are of course a large loading gauge, but also the coaches' configuration, with 3 large double doors each and a high proportion of standing area.
That being said, it's stilll murder at rush hour !
Yes, RER C as well. I was amazed when visiting Paris I took the RER and saw this double decker train ariving at an underground section of the line!
The Dutch states railway did lease in 1978 for a year a SNCF VB2N set to test the posibility for using doubledecker trains on the heavily congested commuter lines.
The Dutch railwaysystem is more an Urban S Bahn type railwaysystem then a classic long distance railway
At first passengers weren't used to use the upperdeck at all.
Also the small doors/staircases and the 2-3 seat arangment wasn't liked.
The VB2N set was also to heavy for fast accelleration and breaking between frequent stops.
After that Test lessons were learned and DDM-1 was designed and build.
Alsthom in France did build special locomotives NS class 1700 (SNCF class BB7200 on steroids)
The carriages were finaly assembeld by Talbot and Bombardier and put into service in 1985.
They were so succesfull that early 1990's the 2nd improved generation was ordered
The 3th generation became an EMU version of doubledecker trains.
Nowadays passengers prefer the upper deck on the doubledecker trains.
The RER also has a max frequency of a train every 3 minutes (not all day of course) so the, lower frequency, thing is not becaus of having a double decker, at least not if you desigh the trains well so the only real reason, that can be addressed but won't in the UK, is the loading gauge.
@@AL5520 yes, a large vestibule and large doors also really help a lot. As a Dutchie I also traveled a lot on the DDM's and it's EMU succesors that @obelic71 mentions. These trains, especially the DDM's have rather spacious vestibules and wide doors. Something which is in fact made possible off-course by the trains being double decker so that space can be used for that while retaining an acceptable capacity.
@@RC534 absolutely though much less efficient for (un)loading passengers. Only RER B remains with single deck trains but, as they have been telling us for the past ten years, that shall change very soon.
I take the word cant as an insult too. But then I'm dyslexic and I often hear the wrong vowel sound.
@personalsigh, If a philosopher ever calls you ‘a real Kant’, that’s a reference to Immanuel Kant, the Enlightenment thinker. It’s a compliment, not an insult!
Jim Davidson's 1995 Cinderella pantomine. Cinderella: Oh, Buttons, you can't! Buttons: What did Cinderella just call me, boys and girls?
See you next Tuesday !!
Dyslexia is about what you CAN do differently.
"What is it you can't face?"
"in Britain, we have an unusually small loading gauge. I guess that's what comes of getting there first"
I K Brunel: " have you got it yet?"
To be fair though, wide gauge doesn't mean loading gauge. Doesn't mean double-deck standard-gauge cars could fit on Brunel's GWR
I K Brunel knew the difference between loading and track gauge! 😀
@@simonbrunning-zc2lh Before the advent of the "convertible" carriages, GWR carriages were significantly wider. When broad gauge was abolished, what it left was a huge distance between running lines- what is the "6ft" everywhere else, was more like the 10ft on GWR lines. Over time, this became eroded by widened platforms and realignment of tracks, but the space, in width at least, was there.
@@simonbrunning-zc2lh To be fair though, he did couple a wider gauge with a larger gauge, as depicted in the video ;)
@@phaasch They weren't a lot wider, Brunel's logic was that having the weight between the wheels would be more stable. And besides, height is the issue, rather than width, and they certainly weren't any higher
I've ridden double-decker trains in Sydney, but it's clear the network was built from the ground up to accomodate them. When you get on the train you walk on to a mezzanine at the end of the car, steps up to the upper deck and down to the lower deck.
Later: I stand corrected. The Aussies got it right the first time around. More power to them! 🇦🇺
I know they have issues with different track gauges to this day, dating back to railway construction in different colonies.
Same idea in France.
Same in The Netherlands
I've seen that on a train built for the Netherlands.
This is a very common design for modern double deck trains. The doors are at the end of the car, and that area is located above the train's bogie. You then descend to the lower deck, which is situated below platform height and between the bogies.
Also in New York, across the US on Amtrak and in Germany.
HS1 was built to European loading gauge so double decker's between Paris and london could start running immediately if eurostar had any interest
Wonder how that will go with tunnel safety regulations. The newer e320 Eurostar trains are quite a bit bigger too, compared to the ones before
As it stands train capacity is not the limiting factor for Eurostar - terminal and border control capacity is. Unless and until the UK joins the Schengen area, double deck stock cannot be considered
One of the possible new entrants to this route has proposed using double deck trains, hopefully opening Stratford to international travel as well as using Ebbsfleet & Ashford too.
Eurostar is a scam. They would never do anything to make it a bit better, let alone cheaper. I'm really looking forward to opening up the tunnel to competition, normal fares and possibly other routes would be great.
@@asdaneedsfunds N'importe quoi !
The Dutch railways used to have double deckers on commuter routes (DDM and DD-AR), even before putting them on the InterCity routes. The boarding time issue was very simply solved by just having very wide double-leaf doors that slid open quickly. So that’s not a reason why they couldn’t be used in the UK, it’s really just the loading gauge.
Exactly. Dutch IntercityTrains are basically commuter trains too, given the short distances between cities. And double decker trains work really well.
I don't get why the loading guage would stop it? The width has nothing to do with height?
@@ElvenSpellmaker The loading gauge is about both the width and the height
@@ElvenSpellmaker well the thing has got to balance. Taller narrower trains might struggle in wind.
Came here to mention the Netherlands and Germany. While most commuter trains in the Netherlands are single-decker, NS makes extensive use of double-deckers on intercity routes, and the added capacity can very much be felt. DB Regio, on the other hand, runs hundreds of double-deckers on commuter services, with great success.
Superb shot around 3:00 with St. Paul's reflection in the Thameslink train window!
Side note: the Loading Gauge in the UK is why, although Challenger tanks can be loaded onto a train in Dover, and transported all the way to the Russian border by train, and although their bases in Salisbury Plain have loading ramps, they have to be moved by road from Tidworth to Dover.
The loading gauge was explained in the video and is the height of the Loco/ Coach from travk level and the width of the Coach/Loco, The challenger tanks are more than likely transported in ythe UK by road due to no rail facity to load them and if they were going to Ukrain it is the only wasy of getting them there quickley, but NATO tanks in Europe move either on the rear of an Army Lorry, under their own power or on freight trains but Tanks can be transported on trains on the UK network
@@peterwilliamallen1063 Challenger 2 tanks are typically 3.5 metres in width, sometimes wider with additional armour
Rail lines running into Dover use the Network Rail W6A loading gauge, which allows a maximum width of only 2.8 metres.
@@peterwilliamallen1063 It's kind of a chicken/egg situation. The original locomotives and coaches were built relatively small, so the infrastructure around them (bridges, gap from track to platform) was also built quite small. But then subsequent generations of locos and coaches, and later multiple units, couldn't be built any bigger without a programme of increasing bridge clearances. And while the Great Western was larger than some other railways of the era, it is still small for today's purposes.
One of the challenges for the Great Western electrification programme was a road bridge over the railway, designed originally by Brunel, at Steventon in Oxfordshire. As a heritage structure, it was placed on the list of historic buildings (a 'listed building'). That means it can't be modified. At other such locations the track was lowered to provide the necessary clearance; however, this bridge is very close to a level crossing. At level crossings, the overhead line is raised to a greater-than-normal height to provide more clearance for road vehicles and separation of high-power cables from things that don't like high voltages, such as people. Unfortunately that meant the track couldn't be lowered under the bridge, because then the gradient would be too large - the cable would have to rise from the low level under the bridge to the higher level over the level crossing in too short a distance. So Network Rail proposed replacing the bridge. But that meant getting consent from the local population, which was denied.
Ultimately a lot of work was done to model the exact behaviour of the pantograph (the current collector that lives on the roof of the train) to confirm that there would be enough clearance, and that the gradient would not be too severe, to allow trains to run over the level crossing and under the bridge at 110mph. Not as good as 125mph, obviously, but much better than the 40mph that was the original design rule. For more see www.railengineer.co.uk/steventon-bridge-overcoming-the-obstacle/
This kind of thing shows why double-deck trains are extremely unlikely even for long-distance high-speed services!
@@kruador Yep, working on a Railway and Railways are my hobby I know all this
Tbh, the RER A is the proof that double-decker trains can work for commuter trains. It's the most used line in Europe and yes, the stairs and limited sets of doors (compared to the space available) make the train take a bit longer at station but the drawback is worth it for the extra capacity... if your line can accommodate it properly, since the RER A still manages to run trains every 2 minutes thanks to partial automation. Maybe for the Elizabeth line, in a few decades...?
But I understand they're not suitable for most the UK.
Even if the Elizabeth line tunnels were for double deckers, they could not then run beyond the portals as the rest of the line is on conventional routes, unless of course you rebuilt them at massive cost. HS1 and HS2 are the only European guage lines and only the new bits. There was a plan to run double deckers from London to Birmingham on HS2 at one time.
RER A doesn't work. It should have been kept single decker.
@@itechcircle9410I live on the RER A and use it daily. It works remarkably well. And actually, it's the switch of its rolling stock to full double-decker (with the introduction of the MI09) that saved it.
So how would you widen and higher the tunnels on the Elizabeth line with out construction problems and having to close the line
as repular commuter here in Zürich/Switzerland i can tell the Double Decker trains have the big pro of additional seating places, but the entering and leaving is is always a pain in the you know where... there is always one last passenger at "my" door who comes down the stairs as whole Switzerland Trains will wait for him (or her) but overall i love them to use...
Yes, I like the Swiss double deckers. Great view from the top, nice and cozy below. Not tried the newly refurbished ones yet.
@@davidellis2021 well the new ones smell also new, but i didn't had the chance to test the seats, cause i used them only for 2 station trips...
love the double deckers from SBB, very comfortable ride. BLS use them on their stopping services between Interlaken and Bern
In my opinion there is a huge advantage. If I stick on for most of the route, I can pick the upper deck with much less disturbance. If I travel only a few stations, I stay at the lower deck.
Just noticed how fast the pan drops on the Thameslink train. Jeez that was quick, thought it would be more controlled. Cheers Jago, you are the pantograph to my third rail.
It just went *BOING* and the catenary was bouncing too
Funny that the experimental double decker was called the 4DD, because Melbourne Australia also had a failed experimental double decker called the 4D back in the 90s. Clearly if we want to get double decker trains to work we need to come up with a better naming scheme.
It was called the 4D as short for Double Deck Development & Demonstration and only failed due to how it was designed and built from its systems rather than it having two decks on a rail system that has only had single-level rolling stock.
Call it a Dosto (Doppelstockwagen) and it'll work, I promise
after pondering this for 30 minutes i think maybe 4DDD might work? if we're really desperate we could even go with something raunchy like 4DDDD
How about 4DDD?
I travelled on the double deckers between Charing Cross and Dartford in the late 1960s. They were fine to travel on and there was no problem getting on and off - at the lower deck - as there were plenty of doors. But it was slow getting down the narrow staircase from the top deck. Often people would start to get on before the upper deck passengers had managed to get downstairs. So people simply stood at the lower deck - which made it even more difficult for passengers to get down from the upper deck. As I travelled all the way to Dartford I simply stayed on the upper deck until the bottom emptied as it was the end of the trip.
My father caught these a few time from Bexleyheath to London Bridge. He told me that travelling on the upper deck was the only time he had ever felt claustrophobic. Once their failure had been established, BR lengthened platforms to take 10 coaches, the also had the expense of modifying a few bridges.
I recall travelling on a DD to Slade Green when I was very small. I’m surprised they stayed in service for as long as they did!
They weren't so bad that they were unusable, (and the SR was chronically short of suburban rolling stock in the 1950s and 1960s as the earliest suburban units wore out faster than replacements could be built) but they weren't good enough to build any more.
So do I, Pete - at school in the early 1960s, commuting from Abbey Wood to London Bridge. When recalling this in the past I was listened to sceptically, such that I began to think I'd imagined it!
Excellent work as ever from Jago.
Travelled on this in early 1960s Charing Cross to Dartford line via Bexleyheath although normally it ran on the loop line to Dartford. As stated in video problem was the carriage was divided into small compartments and they had individual slam doors and it got unpleasantly hot in warmer weather as no open windows in upstairs area . Generally were unsuitable and unpopular in such a busy commuter route
I vaguely recall managing one journey on a 4-DD as a young teenager and being fairly unimpressed. They weren't built for comfort. Nor speed, come to that.
3:32 The pantograph just said Ah hell nah and quit
Back in the 60s, I got the train to school from London Bridge - I was on the wrong line for the double deckers - but most days I'd see a double decker waiting at the signals. I always fancied trying going on one but never found out what route they were on.
Going to school via LB, 1959-66, we probably coincided on the platform, @scratchchris - I actually remember travelling on one.
Used more on loop line to Dartford from Charing Cross ( via Bexley) but also some on the Bexleyheath line to Dartford and few on line via Greenwich .
@colinmanning-nx2kg Don't remember them on Bexleyheath line to Dartford, they always seemed to be on the other Dartford lines.
@ - generally they ran on the loop line CX to Dartford via Bexley with few on Nth Kent line ( Woolwich Erith etc) but I definitely had 1 or 2 trips on the Bexleyheath line but happily that was it - double deckers of that design were not suitable for a busy commuter line , in that era in the Southern region the slam door trains needed checking before departure whereas in the Eastern region Liverpool Street to Shenfield their single deck trains had sliding doors and seats in open coaches rather than coaches with compartment seating. Obviously early 1960s not a good time for rail customers/ passengers as with Dr Beeching in situe the attitude of staff was often unhelpful due to low morale perhaps understandable and I was happy when I had opportunity to cease commuting by public transport. However to this day I like trains as they don’t make me suffer from motion sickness and would choose to pay for train ride rather than go by coach or bus even if a lot cheaper.
Caught the DD train many times going to/from school from Eltham(Well Hall) to Waterloo,and as a schoolkid it was always upstairs.
My grandparents lived near Eltham Park and I also rode the 4-DDs when visiting them.
Are the cushions thinner than the Mk1s?
Whato Jago,
You've done it again. Rightly given Marples a bad mention but it was not him who closed the Great Central. The line was closed by the following Labour Government, the so-called friend of the railways. Which minister signed off the closure we will never know as the Great Central closure files have been "lost". Don't forget I write as the former Chief Archivist to the British Railways Board and handled the London Midland Region's closure files (they're are now at Kew).
Apart from that, again another good video.
Ahh, yet more potentially embarrassing files lost in that flood Sir Humphrey Appleby mentioned.
@@truckerallikatuk It was a wonderful winter!
Labour and Ernest Marple were both in it together, they push for the Great Central line to be closed for the love of Roads and just look at the State of our Roads and Railways, Roads are fill with vehicles for all the motoring lovers and the Railways can't cope with the amount passengers commuting every year. The Railways needs improving and expanding too.
I name the guilty party: transport minister Barbara Castle.
At the time there was no good reason to keep the Great Central, it was just a duplicate route carrying very little traffic with the expense of maintenance. The tragedy was that the route wasn't safeguarded so that it could easily be reinstated. It would have provided either a good alignment for HS2 or a Continental-gauge freight route that left the main lines free for passenger trains. Having said that, it is astonishing how much time and cost it has taken to rebuild the Bletchley-Bicester link, which had freight trains (and occasional passenger specials) running until the 1980s at least and was not severed at all.
There's also the double decker car transporters in the Channel Tunnel too, of course.
Which has a much bigger loading gauge than either the British or European railways on either side!
Double Deck car trnsporter wagons are totaly different in desighn to a double deck passenger coach explained in the video
We have double-decker trains here in Austria (the Westbahn trains), and loading and unloading seems to be pretty efficient - in my experience, they really don't hang around for long on at the stations on the busy line running between Vienna via Linz and Salzburg to Innsbruck! Having said that, I have to admit that it's just my opinion; I haven't actually timed them!
(And I love riding on the top deck with a view of the Alps.)
The Westbahn double-deckers run on the same lines as lots of single-deckers (including Austria's ÖBB trains and trains from other countries.
When the trains have 5 min between each other like in Austria or German, the 10-15% longer boarding time doesn't matter (also the major boarding time would happen in stations where you already have a huge load, and when I see how in Hamburg many people literally try to get into the ICE in ONE door (so that everybody has to go past the whole train) instead of using all doors, I know the major problem are stupid passengers). The argument of Jago is that in his examples the rush hour time gab between trains is too small. But: I would argue, that this only is the case for specific routes, not overall.
Also what Jago doesn't seem to understand: We in Europe don't use double decker trains on metro lines! We are not stupid. The only "S-Bahn" that does that are Zürich and Dresden and they are more like regional train services, not like a typical metro. We use the double decker trains for regional express services. That are services with LESS trains per hour that stop LONGER per station anyway.
0:14 I've never expected seeing a Double decker of the argentinian Sarmiento Line here, I took one of those when I was little and it was a fun experience. The Sarmiento Line has a broad gauge but its the second most congested line in the country, they didn't last much. I don't miss the TBA franchise though, except for that nice paintwork.
Here in Sydney, our ENTIRE Metropolitan commuter network was for many many years purely a double decker service.
The first Tulloch cars were delivered in 1964... And some still in service well into the early 2000's. Their replacements had been solely DD stock with S&T sets, C sets, V sets, A&B sets, M sets, Waratahs and the new Maryiung sets.
But double deckers were THE only type found on commuter services to as far south as Kiama, West to Lithgow and North to Newcastle.
But.... The brand new driverless Metro system (essentially a turn up and go ...no timetable service) is fully single deck
I'm 70 and I have a vague memory of seeing this train from my Grandparent's house in Sidcup. Their house backed onto a park which ran alongside the track. At night you could see the double decker lights as the train sped past.
I wonder whether I'm the only person watching your video who travelled on the Southern's double decker train, as a child. I also saw it in service two or three more times,.always joined together to make an 8 car set.. We lived on the Bexleyheath line to Dartford. Dwell time at London Bridge in the peak must have been a challenge. I think, in latter years at least, it was only used in peak hours, and mainly on Blackfriars/Holborn Viaduct services, which my father used.
I've also ridden those trains, going to or from Eltham Park.
Not quite. I'm 84. It was exciting for kids, not the tired businessman.
I travelled on those cramped, uncomfortable, stuffy buckets as well. Nice idea, a few real life issues (as covered by Jago) got in the way.
Seems there are several of us here who remember travelling on them, on the London Bridge to Dartford lines!
I travelled on a 4DD from Eltham Well Hall to Charing Cross a few times.
Love seeing the GO train at 2:13. Many fond childhood memories on those. Double-decker trains are very common in North America - I guess one benefit of our big loading gauge. The specific coach pictured, the Bombardier Bi-level, is used all over the US and Canada, though GO Transit (pictured) is by far their largest operator.
I think GO alleviates the dwell time issue because their train are so huge, with such high capacity, most people can sit down and you don't have to swim through the aisle to get in or out.
There is also the issue of platform width. A large swath of people alighting in a double decker will require a wide platform to accommodate them. Either you expand the station or you have to reduce the number of platforms. Toronto Union station had to reduce the number of platforms to create wider platforms for safety, which brings another set of problems.
Plus GO trains run at such lower frequencies - at the moment, a line with two trains per hour is considered good. So the longer dwell times don't actually reduce the number of trains that can run. (It remains unclear whether the future electric trains will be double-deckers, though even with the massive expansion that's planned, we're still talking about 15-minute frequencies.)
I travelled a few times on the double-decker, from Well Hall Eltham up to Charing X; my father much more often as a commuter. He disliked the upper deck intensely. Exiting in the rush-hour was a pain.
Double decker trains work quite nicely on GO Transit, the commuter rail service in the Toronto area (that's the green and white train pictured in the video), but we have two major differences: a much taller loading gauge, and our most frequent service is every 15 minutes so no worries about a train being held up by the dwell time of the train ahead of it.
We have the same green and white trains in South Florida. When the train service was started in South Florida the trains were actually borrowed from Toronto. The service was started as an experiment to see if they would be accepted. They probed very popular. The South Florida TriRail is still TO's green and white.
@@BentcypressSame with Metrolink in Southern California and Sounded in Washington.
We have quite a few double decker services here in Germany, but they aren’t really used for the examples in the video. Thameslink or the Elizabeth line, operate akin to our S-Bahns, which are all single-deckers to maximize throughput at stations. But for many longer running services the benefit of added seating capacity outweighs the longer dwell times. Also, unless the train is absolutely packed or many people want to get off and on at the same station, the difference in dwell times isn’t that big. People just get used to treating it more like a long distance train and get to the door before the train stops.
Ok here goes.
The 4DD does not really have anything based on the SUB. Very little is shared between the designs. The only things to my knowledge where the traction motors (on some), cab front window (opening) and the power controller.
The chassis are a lower than SUB, at the front where the cab is the upper level is about the same height as a sub but where it lowers down was designed to gain that little extra height inside. Which means the centre buffers are lower than standard emu carriages. Also the body side profile is straight to gain as much space as possible, the sub was curved to gain the extra seat per compartment
The braking system was unique to the DD using Westinghouse EP self‑lapping brakes so it could only connect up to itself.
From what I understand for why it was kept in service so long was someone at BR (a accountant probably) said it needed to pay for itself. One other point to mention which was missed was the force ventilation system which was not very effective. I have been in one of the carriages on a hot day (private site) and it is like a greenhouse.
Preservation, original plan to preserve unit 4001 but this was already in the process of being scrapped, 4002 was available still (both had electrically been stripped), a minimum of 3 carriages had to preserved to move the vehicle by rail as the two motors could not be connected up as they do not have buffer (rubbing plates instead, could be done with modification), a flyer based appeal was handed out (at the time) as was preserved at the South Eastern Steam Centre by 1972. the steam centre closed in 1976, to cut the long story short BR wanted the owner out (Some stuff had already been moved elsewhere) and called in the scrapmen about 8 years later, local residents where alerted what was going on as fireless loco northmet was being cut up and the middle carriage was burnt. The two motor carriages where moved elsewhere (one to Northampton and another private initially), by the mid 90s one of the motor coaches was transferred between private site, only more recently has the other carriage moved down to said private site.
If you ever get the chance, i would recommend a visit to the NRM, they have a colour painting of the cutaway carriage and quite a few bits in the archive. I do have a video on my channel when the tree was removed from the front of one carriages.
Sources, blood and custard, nrm archives, steam centre guide book
I commute on the Chicagoland Metra trains, which are double decker.
The stairs are narrow and somewhat spiral in layout, meaning that only able-bodied commuters with no luggage can manage them. The headroom upstairs is maybe around 5 feet.
The lower deck has the walkway down the middle, with no middle ceiling, while above the seats on the lower deck, the headroom is again around 5 feet.
The part I don't understand is the steps up into the train from the platform. The lower level is again the magic 5 feet from the platform, which is no fun with baggage, or my case, a bicycle. The whole system is slow and old fashioned, which is sweet in a Polar Express sort of way, with the guards still wearing the traditional uniform and hats, but its miserable when you just want to get to work, and it takes forever because people struggle with the steps up into the train!
I'd sooner they brought back some of the branch lines. I can't imagine double decker trains. I do like our double decker London buses though, I enjoyed that video as well.
May your Christmas be decked, doubly, with Holly and cheer. Have a good one. 🎄
One more point is that train platforms in the UK is generally quite high. For example Stadler FLIRT trains in Europe and Trentitalia Rock, the platform is almost as low as the floor of the lower deck.
The French TGV ones are VERY nice indeed, I had an agreeable ride between Paris and Biarritz recently. Damn fast as well.
meh, nowhere near enough room on the upper deck for luggage.
@andrewyoung749 ...that's true, a good point, and it's near impossible to get large suitcases up to the top deck.
Interesting video Jago, I hadn't realised there was so much space wasted under each high level compartment
I actually came across a 4DD driving coach at Ashford about 98. I was dumped on some abandoned sidings where CTRL is now. It was actually in reasonable condition, it was with a birdcage brake possibly SECR I think both got saved. We were stabling 37s there for dungeness route learning
Cheers Russ
Someone moves to one side, someone lets one go first, an old lady pushes past made my laugh so much - plenty of experience of trying to get on and off public transport and that is just a massive part of it. One perk of driving, I don't miss positioning myself to get to the door as we approach the required stop
I’ll take that over traffic and traffic lights
One problem I have heard about the SR double deckers was that passengers on the lower deck complained that they could smell the feet of passengers on the upper deck. 😊
There are other issues aside of just the loading gauge. For instance here in Germany double deck trains have been introduced to increase commuter and inter-city capacity, as in France. They were primarily introduced so as to avoid lengthening platforms. Double Deck coaches are enormously heavy, a bring with them headaches for structural engineers and locomotives. The permanent way has to be strengthened, especially on routes of 160 km/h, and locomotives need more horse- and braking power to cater for such services. Rightly or wrongly, I can’t imagine such trains being developed for the uk. Bridges, tunnels and the extremely tight loading gauge just couldn’t allow it to happen.
In 1981 I travelled from N Orleans to Houston & Los Angeles on Amtrak's Sunset Limited and from Seattle to Chicago on the Empire Builder, both of which were double-decked 'Superliners'...perfect for gazing at scenery as we trundled along, never more than 55mph but usually nearer 45...a grand experience...dgp/uk
It was strange that Bulleid didn‘t use the below-sole-bar level. Most double deck coaches in Europe only work because the lower deck sits between the bogies, and single level has to be above the bogies. The Aeroliner 3000 concept did this, but because UK trains can‘t crack the 4m mark, even the Aeroliner design needs to fold the aisle of the lower deck into the aisle of the upper deck. The Görlitz double deck coach is around 4.60 m above the railhead, which allows for two decks of approximately 2 m headroom. The use of the below-sole-bar-space means that electrical and mechanical equipment needs to be crammed in, in the roof of the single deck portions at the ends of the coach and under the stairs.
Most double deck stock here is locomotive-hauled, so there is no need for traction equipment on the carriages. Your example is the Class 445 Bombardier Twindexx, which has 6 standard non-motored carriages (no equipment) and 2 motored carriages in a sort of HST-format.
DCA design came up with a UK loading gauge double deck concept in about 2010
Here in Switzerland we have double-decker trains on both long-distance and commuter lines (and just about everything in between). They are characterized by having large doors to facilitate people getting on and off quickly. They're all low-level step free, also making movement fast.
I can't help bu thinking a Stadler KISS or a Desiro HC would look stunning in CrossCountry colours.
The best design double decker trains I have seen anywhere are the much loved Sydney suburban and regional electric double deckers, which have been used since the 60's.
They carry a high proportion of seated in comfort passengers in 8 car sets, with a normal capacity of 1200/peak 2150 at top speed of 143 km/h.
The design is as near perfect as you can get. There are two platform level entries at both ends of the carriage leading into a side seat area for people in wheelchairs, parents with prams or cyclists. Angled short stairs lead up and down to the central double decker section which has a 3/2 seat arrangement with a central aisle. The seats flip easily so you can choose which direction to face and arrange the seats into single, 2, 4, 3 or 6 seat arrangements.
The 4 ultrawide sliding double doors (two on each side of the carriage) pop out and away to allow fast entry/exit.
They are fast, almost silent and comfortable for most passengers for the sometimes long commutes. Top deck is great for the scenic lines, north, west and south through the mountains or along the coast.
Sydney's new Metro lines have moved to slower 100km/hr driverless single deck currently 6 car sets, future 8 car sets having 1,539 passenger capacity. The Metro sets are faster loading and faster accelerating, with a shorter dwell time and much more frequent schedule, so effectively faster in use for most passengers who do not need to worry about a timetable as the trains are 4-10 minutes apart. They are designed for majority standing which is a big change from the double deckers.
Took a double decker train from Pisa to Florence in September, sat on the upper deck. Really comfortable journey.
As a train nerd, since moving to Germany, I get as giddy as a child when my train will be a double decker
I live in Tokyo, recently they added double deckers to the Chuo line called Greens cars. I’m surprised it fits. It really good if you get a seat
I grew up in a Chinese city full of single decker buses, and I'm so used to them I still prefer the lower deck of buses in the UK.
Later I moved to the UK full of single decker trains, and I'm so used to them I still prefer the lower deck of trains in mainland Europe.
(Feels faster)
I agree it feels faster on the lower deck. I think this is because it's closer to the ground than on a single decker.
Chinese students in Norwich always sit in the front seat upstairs on the bus
2:16 Hey those are my trains! I had the privilege of riding your trains when I was over in England a few years back, and I definitely have a case of rail-envy. We Canadians have much work to do. Much love from Toronto, Jago. Keep up the amazing work.
Honestly I don't think saying that double deckers can't work because of longer dwell times is really accurate. Here in the Netherlands we use double deckers on a lot of longer distance trains. But what we actually have compared to the average semi long distance train in the UK are large balconies and large doors. For some reason British intercity trains still have tiny balconies and only single doors per side. Yeah you're going to have issues with crowds if you have to walk in and out single file, but on our VIRM and DDZ double deckers you can easily have three people exiting at the same time. We still have one or two minute stops with this setup. For some reason the UK keeps holding on to single doors on their higher speed trains and two sets of double doors on stopping trains. We moved to three sets of doors on stopping trains in the 70s! Dwell times are aweful in the UK not just because of overcrowding, but also because some design choices are just wrong for efficiency.
Dwell times are lengthy on UK commuter trains. People just don't seem be able to get in and out quickly and I believe that this contributes to delays. I remember my commutes falling further behind schedule after each stop. More sets of doors would certainly help as would less of a delay for them to open.
I wouldn't want to go back to slam door trains but I don't remember them taking so long for people to get on/off at intermediate stations.
@@paulketchupwitheverything767 2 tiny doors for a carriage of 200 people will do that
My great aunt commuted in these from Woolwich Arsenal to Waterloo East in the 60s
I've heard New Zealand has imported a few carriages from Britain and used them on their network, which is 1067mm narrow gague. So yeah, Britain's loading gague is really small.
Loading gauge and track gauge are two different things and it's possible for networks of the same track gauge to vary wildly in loading gauge. In any case, NZ does have a smaller loading gauge than GB. Japanese trains (which like NZ's also run on Cape Gauge) are slightly less tall, but also slightly wider than GB trains.
@n.bastians8633 I know loading gauge and track gauge are different, but generally narrow gauge railways have a smaller loading gauge than standard or broad gauge railways.
@@namenamename390 still, no surprise people assumed you mixed them up
@@user-wm3hu7lo1g Yeah that's fair
Around 150 BR MK 2 carriages were exported to New Zealand from the Mid 1990s to mid 2000s (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_British_Rail_Mark_2_carriage). They were able to fit with in the NZ loading gauge by using 750mm dia wheels (in narrow gauge bogies) rather than the larger (900mm?) wheels used in their original standard gauge bogies.
Thanks for the video Jago! I found it interesting hearing the British perspective of double decker trains as in Sydney, Australia our commuter rail network is run entirely by double decker stock
2:13 - A GO (short for, "Government of Ontario") Train, the commuter service in the Greater Toronto Area, of Ontario, Canada.
GO Train service began in 1967, with single-deck coaches, on a single route, between Pickering in the east, and Oakville in the west, with Toronto Union Station in the middle.
Ridership increased so dramatically that double-decker coaches (white & chromium-green) were introduced in the late 1970s. The newer coaches are white & grass-green.
Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to the punmeister of choo choos! Thank you for your awesome and chuckle worthy content Jago. Always learn something new.
FYI: A standard Bombardier/Alstom "lozenge" bi-level cars are 15'11" (4.85 m) tall. Trying to cut 4 feet off that isn't possible, not without posting "One must be this SHORT to ride this train" signs everywhere. I can testify that these trains feel roomy, even if one can reach the ceiling.
Don't give Michael O'Leary any ideas.
@@mikeball6182 - For real, who is Michael O'Leary?"
Many European double deckers are 4.32m high, the UK limit is 3.95 from memory
@@pacificostudiosRyanair’s CEO, (in)famous for… being quite blunt about things… to put it mildly
I remember these going past our house in Sidcup as a kid in the early 60s and even rode it once.
So basically if we built HS2 in full we could potentially have double decker trains 🤓
And if it had been planned to link to HS1 you could have ridden top deck from Manchester to Paris
@@markstamp3937 That's us isn't it? "Let's plan two high speed route into London but... Not link them up." Er is HS2 still going to Manchester? Hasn't that been cancelled as well yet? We will be lucky if it ever reaches Watford at this rate!
No it would not because these HS2 trains would not of been able to travel on other existing UK lines built to the UK loading gauge which HS2 trains will have to do to go to Liverpool, Manchester and Scotland
@@markstamp3937 The use of trains from Manchester via Birmingham New Street and via HS1 to Paris was talked about in British Rail days, it wa droped due to lack of interest and pathing problems and the lenghth of the class 373 Eurostar trains not fitting into UK platforns and was dropped, when HS2 was planned it has never been planned to join to HS1 to take trains to Paris, the idea is what you call Chinese Whispers when some one suggested it years go and it got out of control.
When will every one realise all HS2 is, is a dmestic Hi Speed passenger line connecting London Euston to Birmingham City Centre and Manchester, Liverpool and Scotland being constructed as a new line to replace the failed upgrade od the Southern Half of the West Coast Main Line from Stafford to London Euston by moving the vast majority of Avanti West Coast hi speed trains onto HS2 thus allowing more capacity onthe existing WCML for other passenger services and Freight Services plus like HS1, HS2 will be a one operator line being operated only by Avnti West Coast Trains
The Sydney trains provide disabled spots in their vestibules, where you board the trains. Other commuters can go up or down the stairs to the other levels, but many just stay in the vestibules for short trips.
New South Wales also uses electric double deckers on its intercity route to Newcastle and Wollongong, that have accessible toilets in the disabled access vestibules.
I rode that pictured Go train in Toronto on '17.
I rode the GO train on a visit to Toronto in 2019. I have also been on the French SNCF trains that have upstairs seating.
Thank you Jago, another really fascinating and crisply presented slice of railway history.
I travelled from Rotterdam to Schipol on a double-decker and it was brilliant. You get a much better view of the countryside, but for me it was a frozen wasteland at the time. One thing you can say about German and Dutch railways, you can set your watch by the times they leave the stations.
I travel extensively on German railways,and inter city trains are notorious for never being on time,try waiting in Brandenburg for 2 hours in the snow freezing for 2 trains that never turned up, without any announcements. Dutch railways yes, but not Deutsche bahn.
@@ErnestParker-e9t Yep, on my visits to Germany I gradually learnt a new phrase from its frequent appearances, "etwa spaten". German inter-city trains once had little booklets with details of all the connections en route including platforms - fine, but when the train was 20 minutes late all those connections disappeared.
A really interesting video and expertly presented. Along with the clips shown to accompany it i thoroughly enjoyed it. And something that is rare these days with a lot of info vids on You Tube, felt that i had actually learnt something. Many thanks for the upload.
The 4DD might have been better going Waterloo - Surbiton - Woking fast shuttles moving lots of people in one go to places where not many folk would board
The complete double deck operation on the RER A is a relatively recent innovation (which I think required some infrastructure changes at the ends of some of the branches). It used to be quite common to have older single deck units.
Trying to board a short formed single deck unit to Rueil Malmaison at La Defense at 5.30pm was like the Tokyo Subway. I quickly learned the French for “get off my f****** foot”.
In fact, the same experience can be still had at Chatelet on Line B in the morning heading towards CDG, with added baggage.
The kind of man that took "can't" as a personal insult.
I'm afraid I've had to fall about laughing. My apologies. 🙂
I have travelled on the 'Double Decker (4DD)'. As a child I liked it and always wanted to sit upstairs. I agree about the longer station dwell times but would ask if the time taken for all passengers to alight/board would have been any longer than if a Class 411 (4CEP) unit was used which was not unheard of on the Dartford route. Another problem was the all closed compartment nature of the train. With normal compartments, nervous passengers could at east see who was in the compartment before they boarded but on the DD such passengers had no idea who could be lurking upstairs.
Simple answer: tunnels
Also think of the trains you cannot get on as people don't move down. Buses are the same. There are seats upstairs but you cannot get on as people do not move.
Carry an umbrella!😊
As they say on the Underground during rush hour, "Move down inside the cars, please" And if you do, you might not be getting off at the next stop!
@@xenon53827 and if you don’t move no-one can get on?
@@CarolineFord1 No, I dodge around a bit letting people get past me. This also works well in the RER D trains in Paris. I never take a seat in those, just stand back from the doors a little.
Thanks
And thank you!
GO Transit in the Toronto region, Sydney Trains and the Zurich S-Bahn are the exceptions to the advice that you shouldn't use double-decker trains for commuter service. The latter has other wacky features like first class on commuter trains, tram-trains and light rail, and metre-gauge lines.
I forgot about Toronto and Zürich and you forgot the Paris RER. They have the most appropriate double deckers for commuter services as they have 3 doors per carriage.
@ D'oh I forgot about the RER! Yeah that works well despite being a very intensive service.
6:16 I like how the sound insulation wall has a two layer alternating pattern just like the shown train!
Well, double decker EMUs are also hard to build. Here in Russia we had Stadler KISS trains as both suburban trains and airport express. The esults were...mixed, let's be honest. Our RZD company also uses loco-hauled dd carrieges, but those had all kinds of technical issues during their first year. Some passengers had problems with 2nd floor coupes and stairs.
Which country did they nick the design from ?
Please don't put any novochock (if that's how you spell it) on my door handle.
@SIMONWINTER-m6d no real copy of any foreign design IMO, more like bland modern style.
@@runoflife87 And some fell on stoney ground !!
The teething problems of the double-decker cars have been largely solved, and now they are actively used on many express trains (negating the slow boarding problem: people on intermediate stops can prepare in advance for their exit, and on terminal stops loading speed doesn't really matter that much because they have a lot more tracks so other trains aren't slowed down, and of course there are no standing passengers).
A few years ago I rode on a Metra train from Union Station in Chicago to Buffalo Grove Illinois, and the cars were double-decker like the GO trains in Canada.
What's the truncated line @01:14 ? It looks like a former junction ,with a double track line coming from the right ,and he line from the left joining it and then disappearing into the two tunnel entrances ?
Smithfield Market / Snow Hill between Farringdon / Barbican / City Thameslink looking south east-ish. You can see one of the Barbican tower blocks towards the left.
The rear windows of Smiths of Smithfield overlook those tracks.
Double deck trains rule. Dwell times minimal. 40 seconds for 500 people.
Jago was so specific about the disembarking. I think he knows something 😂
@PokhrajRoy., You think it’s an old lady but it’s really Jago in disguise 😁
I never knew we had dabbled in double decker trains in the UK. Proper full size double decker trains need bridges and overhead lines raising though, presumably these extra costs outweigh any benefits. Great interesting video Jago and was very nice to see some EMR footage included, thanks Jago.
I come from the Netherlands, which has doubledecker trains. And certainly not great distances between towns and cities....
I used enjoy riding on the "koplopers" ICM trains with the raised driving compartments. They made me think of a 747 with its wings lopped off.
@@paulketchupwitheverything767 They were great back when you could completely walk from one end to the other over multiple carriages.
Unfortunately, the linkage tunnels proved to be maintenance-heavy and were welded closed from 2006/7 onwards.
In Japan, they have commuter line trains such as the JR Tokaido line and Joban line which use conventional single deck coaches for standard class and double deck coaches for first class (green car), where the double deck coaches share the same loading guage as the single deck coaches. I've always wondered if this could be possible on UK trains.
Hello once again, Jago :)
5:00. The USA had similar trains to these. Long Island Railroad had some similar the the seats were not enclosed, everyone could socialize up an down so to speak. And this arrangement reminds of the duplex type of sleeping cars in America as well.
if youre on the upper deck of a train here youll need to get ready to get off 3 stops before you do to fight to get somewhat near the doors
Not true at all.
The thing that fascinated me on visiting Japan are the *partial* double-decker trains. Ones with 10 cars, 8 of which are single-deck, the two in the middle two-deck. Fascinating stuff to experience.
They also had double-decker Shinkansen at a time, which are sadly no longer in service. Now that’s something spectacular.
The Double decks are First class cars
@ Indeed they are! I used them a couple of times on the E233 (or maybe E231) series around Tokyo. Really fun trains, those.
Yep, the green cars! They've just introduced them on the Chuo Line which runs from Tokyo station all the way out to the mountains in Takao. I think you can ride them for free until sometime in spring
@@lil_swarlettemajor Japanese rail operators tend to have one timetable revision per year in mid March, the Chuo Line green card will probably require payment from that timetable change
And yes it's great that the Chuo Line will now have green cars, matching all the other major JR lines out of Tokyo. They're a good option if you're desperate for a seat after a long day at work :)
6:13 if you think double decker trains don't work on commuter services I invite to you visit zurich (I know we don't have the same size restrictions here but anyway)
And France's RER system too
Maybe think about how many people are in Zurich compared to London or other cities
And that’s why
The old SR 4-DD were a nightmare to get on and off. I missed my stop more than once trying to get off.
Maybe Eurostar will be ordering double decker TGVs? I think that's the only the only realistic scenario to see double decker trains in Britain.
They will have to prove that the train can be cleared in the channel tunnel fast enough to avoid danger to passengers if a train catches fire, in particular given double deck TGVs only have one way out of each carriage on the bottom deck.
Yet, many other countries have double deck commuter trains - the nearest example being the RER in Paris. Loading and unloading speeds can be as much to do with the number and size of doors - lots of big doors means fast loading, but fewer seats. Part of the reason that the upper seats on the DD4s were unpopular was that the upstairs windows couldn't be opened so, with the lack of AC in those days, it got very hot and stuffy up there, especially as half the passengers would be smoking!
The accessibility of double deckers, at least the ones I have used is appalling as well.
There were a double decker TGV btw. Calais Fretun and Lille Europe/Gare du Nord. It was an absolute nightmare. The train were crowded people had to stand, sit on the stairs, at each door a rail worker stood to squeeze people in. They were fairly short trains and maybe longer trains wld have been better.
The double deck TGV are expanding across the french network and they're getting rid of a lot of the single deck TGV as they get old. I think it's sad personally.
The Duplexes are... not great to say the least. they do look interesting.
I think a lot of the utility depends on the passengers co-operating. In France.
My experience on the Toulon TGV was similar to yours, the train before had been cancelled and the result was the storming of the Bastille.
@@Julius_Hardware true.
@@khidorahian it is rare that I put Die Bahn above any other rail company (for obvious reasons), but I do prefer their double deckers on commuter routes, to the double decker TGV.
Hey the GO train! Nice! That’s what I use occasionally to go to downtown Toronto. 😄 Great view from the upper level.
we could have had double-decker trains, but that would be another story
Another interesting video Jago, thanks. Down here in Sydney, the electric, city and suburban, trains are actually triple deckers as, apart from the main upper and lower decks (some with fixed seating and others with seat-backs that can be swung to face the direction of travel) , most carriages have a middle deck of four transverse seats facing each other close to the entrance/exit doors which are (I think) primarily for less mobile passengers and there are actually one or two of these seats designated for disabled passengers. In some carriages, three of the adjacent seats on either or both sides of these level access seats can be folded up to permit wheelchairs secure access (stall still need to place a ramp between the train and the platform for egress). The ends of end carriages (with driver or guard end cabins) do not have an eight-seat middle deck (although some have one or more single seats) and, on suburban trains serving country routes, some carriages nearer the middle of the train have a toilet and handbasin. Ian (POHM)
I agree, double decker trains are very much needed here in the U.K. For instance, a double decker LU Train sounds certainly interesting! Also, I really enjoy your videos! Very informative and very interesting! ❤
The tunnels aren't designed for it
If you’re prepared to spend hundreds of billions on raising or removing bridges and expanding tunnels it’s a no-no.
Ooh yes a Voyager with twice the smell!
A Voyager that's twice as awfully overcrowded? No thank you! 😊
Longer voyagers would be an easier solution, 5 cars at peak time is just ridiculous
Thanks Jago - this was exactly what I wanted to know about this subject. As an Australian living in London for the past 20 odd years, it had made me wonder (I knew all about the history part and the logisitcs bit). And as we have in Sydney, double deckers are used because of the distance and the crowds... of course. But we also have destinations on the same line not always stopping etc. I am sure that the "legacy" issue can be rectified... like how copper cables for broadband was useless... so it is without a stretch of the imagination that the lines could eventually be upgraded (they do a lot of maintenance, so why not at the same time add in a new line)... and that brings me to the HS2 - why wouldn't this be a good starting point? I am answering my own questions in my head of course.... Ah, England.... it is eccentric still, and you've gotta stay that way!
From my personal experience traveling across Europe on various different styles of train I found double deck trains very good. Loading and unloading time was equal or less than our single deck trains. People stepping on go up or down to sit and this reduces the bottleneck of people stacking bags or getting sat down.
I don’t believe loading time will be as fast as a single deck train unless the doors are really big and entrance has lots of space. But I think loading time is less important for faster commuter trains than a metro. You hardly see double deck metros.
With wide stairs, enough headroom, and space for luggage, they can be just as good and comfortable as any single-deck train. The TGV Duplex units for example have a very low ceiling downstairs though, and they're noticeably more claustrophobic than the already small single deck TGVs. Double deckers in Germany can be really quite good, and the Dutch and Belgians heavily use them in IC traffic. There, the comfort and luggage space is only slightly lesser compared to single-deck IC stock.
@ comfortable, like Jago says they are better for long distance travel where the dwell time is less important and luggage space is more important.
That’s really not at all the case when they are busy - it takes significantly longer for people to get on and off, and you have the pain of people having to push upstairs and then downstairs before realising that reason everyone is standing on the stairs is because there are no seats.
@ They’re a real pain when you have luggage though - trekking up and down stairs with a suitcase is never pleasant. Same as the issues for anyone with movement difficulties.
It may (not) surprise you to know that Bulleid wasn't completely deterred by the Leader's failure, nor was it the end of his railway career.
After moving to CIÉ (the Irish state rail operator) in 1949 (initally as consulting mechanical engineer, ascending to the position of chief mechanical engineer the following year) he ended up building CC1 aka the Turf Burner in 1957. Similar in concept to the Leader, but with the cab smack in the middle as opposed to at each end among other various differences. It barely lasted a year before withdrawal (Bulleid retired in May 1958), having exhibited many of the same issues that bedeviled Leader. It never hauled a train in frontline service iirc.
With all that in mind, he did introduce mainline diesel power to Ireland's railways in the mid/late 50s, but as with his 'Spamcan' Pacifics, the initial results were mixed. He sourced the locos (94 in total) from Metrovick with Crossley HST-V8 powerplants, which if you know your British (and Western Australian) railway history, were unreliable from the start. CIE would eventually have all of them rebuilt with powerplants from General Motors/EMD.
While rather specific, A video on the noise that the Thameslink makes would be awesome.
I've always liked the pulsing noise they make while on 3rd rail DC power.
In the mean time you might like to search youtube for 'How electric trains work and why they make interesting sounds' which covers some very similar trains.
As a child I rode in one, Plumstead to Charing Cross. Mum and Dad downstairs and me and my sister upper compartment accessed by stairs in centre of compartment
Here in Denmark we know, that a double decker train is only good, if the upper deck stops at the same stations and go to the same destination as the lower deck. Otherwise ... forget it.
Ahh, Scandinavian "humour".
I used to go to school on the double deck train from Bexleyheath to Welling. Great fun!