They are just chilling, looking at bronto money coming in on the beach. They are planning the next micro transaction move for sure, maybe at 95% resources, while the rest is working on some gameplay. M+ will never be in their scope and never has been.
THERE. IS. NO. LEARNING. CURVE. Heroic dungeons don't offer learning because people speed run them. Delves make you out gear low keys then(technically but not BiS or sim'd well) so players have to watch vids and/or read WOWhead and pray to God they don't mess it up. Then after losing a ton of self confidence they'll finally get ok and move up but not before ruining the experience for themselves or other players. There has to be a way to learn mechanics and affixes before timing keys. There just has to be. No other way around it
@@anthonyconsilvio449 thank you for reading the first part of my comment and not the rest of it. Which is my point already. Watching a video doesn't make you prepared. You learning by doing it. But there's no learning curve to it. Especially at tank and heals. If you have to learn those it's almost required at least 3 other people in your group will not have a good time.
@@Lucas-st1xq Well that always was the essence of connecting knowledge on boss fights in wow as an example. Considering how hard it is for players to adjust to mechanics. Let's say, use skills and interrupts in correct situations. It totally makes sense, to get the help you need, before taking the challenge. Just as it is a possibility to throw addons in your interface, to wake you up when mechanics are triggered.
This is blizzards last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last chance
I've been playing Wow for 20 years, and I love the game. As a father, I don't have time to deal with petulant misbehavior, so I don't run Mythics. They are not welcoming at all. All of your reasoning for not running them is spot on. If they made the changes you suggested, I would certainly love to level keys, but not until major changes like removing the timer are made. The incessant angst I hear in all these videos about fear of broken keys would put anyone off that has limited time. I have enough stress in my life, that I am not going to add more to it from an RPG with bad actors. Until changes are made, Mythics will remain a part of the game that a small percentage of people play.
It really ruins the experience. I can hold my own in M+ but I probably won't be going past +10s, this season kinda sucked....and I agree, something needs to be done about toxicity, it goes far past the whole "Get gud breh" mindset I know the mechs and dungeons well but even seeing other players get flamed in PuGs isn't nice, happens a lot. People need to learn. Yes, by 10s you should know the mechs well, but players are human and make mistakes - they don't deserve a verbal beating for not executing with perfection
That last part you said. I too have enough stress in my life and not as much time to game anymore. So i decided to quit all online gaming. I don't have the patience or want the blood pressure going up because of other people's crappy behavior. I quit at the beginning of November and in that time I have already felt better not having to worry about logging in because i feel like my $15/mo is going to waste. Going back to single player games and indie games has made gaming fun for me again. after 20 years myself, I just knew it was time to put it behind me finally.
Well. As a father of two, and a required focused work career to uphold, I as well have limited time. So I made a Warrior tank, and went easy in the queue time. The only reason I play keys now, is doing a single 10 once a week, to get the weekly vault item. There is absolutely no reason for me to push further. But to reach and clear +10 at the current state, is absolutely doable. Unless you don't adjust and do the required rotations/interrupts, pulls and forth. I am totally okay with losing a key timer, failing it or whatever. The problem is the toxicity in the player base. There are so many players, not able to accept a failure or other people doing mistakes. The way I climbed, was just to team up with a couple of polite and focused players I met. Every time I have smelled just a small amount of attitude or rude behaviour, I instant put people on ignore.
"Mythics will remain a part of the game that a small percentage of people play." no offense but it has been shown that M+ is by far the game mode with the most participation in retail WoW. removing the timer would destroy an infinitely scaling game mode like this. "remove the timer" is an easy thing to say, but think about the repercussions. you now only ever have tiny pulls because why risk anything and you are now forced to afk all the time to wait for Bloodlust. i understand that Mythic+ may not be for you as you don't have the time or energy to invest into it, but you don't have to personally like everything in this game. as a more casual player you can still experience the dungeons in M0 and you can still challenge yourself in Delves, Normal and Heroic Raid. if you don't enjoy optimizing your efficiency in dungeon runs you absolutely never have to step a foot into M+ and that's fine, but you don't have to try to get it removed for the people that love the game mode. ;)
What a great video! It addresses some very important things. I am a dad of 4, I run M+ during the weekends, and the gear rewards SUCK! If you get any...
Well the reason why mythic + is bad for getting gear is simply that for the casual player just like back in the day before mythic+ was even a thing Heroic Raid is supposed to be the main source of gear. Mythic+ is not supposed to be a loot pinata it is supposed to be content for people who like to challenge themselves and time the next level. It is like people playing souls games on the hardest difficulty it is only about the challenge not about anything else. Getting gear is just the cerry on top
1000% agree boss. I could never remember the name, but the badges system worked out perfectly. Was a great way to fill up slots when drops weren't dropping. I don't think I'd want to guarantee loot every time I run, but significant adjustments in the loot system to ensure the drops I do get are worth it would be swell.
Haven't done a M+ since I hit KSM 4 weeks ago, when in previous seasons I would go to KSH for fun. Delves completely cannibalized the need to do M+ below 7s and for many players that was a huge jump in difficulty with no learning curve. Putting the Gilded Crests 3 levels higher than previous seasons was also a huge mistake and created an upgrade cockblock. IMO instead of having 12 Gilded Crests drop at M8 and up, a portion of them should start dropping sooner. Perhaps M+5 can drop a mix of 3 gilded/9 runed and the ratio can gradually ramp up to full gilded at M8.
blizzard is stuck in the loot gate-keeping mentality and the grind treadmill. they replaced AP with upgrade crests. you gotta run (and TIME) a minimum of 8 +8's per week per character to stay relelvant. the grind is just there. its stupid. and they also go "no. only mythic raiders deserve the best gear. or they'll throw a fit about how much harder their content is". just let m+ cap out at mythic raid level gear without needing the damn vault. just cap it at a drop rate/week roughly equivalent to mythic raid.
8s not gonna help, they give heroic track at vault. At some point you'll be stuck on this track, that's why you gotta get those vault mythic drops early in the season. This also why DF S3 was great, because vault mythic track dropped from a lower key than now.
@minciNashu The eights wasn't reference to the mythic crests. You are correct you need tens to get vault gear at mythic track. Though I should say I don't see a reason why mythic Plus at some level couldn't drop mythic track gear naturally without the vault.
This The entire difficulty system needs a massive rework I got told that anything shy of mythic is “too brain dead” to learn anything and M+ is where you go to learn how to play a role You should be learning in Normal Know what you’re doing in heroic And have mastered to hit mythic M+ and mythic raiding SHOULD be kept to the top 1% But having so much gear locked behind it is where the issues truly begin
@dragonriderabens9761 I agree. The gear gatekeeping is so stupid. Let everyone get max ilvl with game time, then let those who want challenge content go do it. Gearing is honestly the worst part of the game. It mattered when RP mattered, but now it's literally a replacement for content. "We don't need to make enough content to justify a 60 dollar price tag. Just put in a gearing system and the game will take 6x as long for mains and alts"
@@hestaby7829 Because it has gotten 2 extra tracks and it makes you not being bored from the first couple of weeks. There's a reason why Mythic raid gives you Myth gear, it's because it's weekly content.
Love this idea. Time rushing makes people fail. You would be able to do slow safe pulls, and your rewarded for being a good team, Not a greatly fast team lol.
I have watched like 10 videos about "how to fix M+" and literally nobody has suggested removing the timer and adding death count. I honestly think this may be the way, great suggestion and brownie points for originality
Routes are core to the experience of playing M+, without a timer there is no need for routes or skips or big pulls. In fact a hard death counter simply incentivizes a very risk-averse gameplay. Its simply not the same game mode at that point.
As a Tank trying to push into upper keys, I agree that the level of toxicity in M+ is awful. Even with my guild it just ruins the entire mood when we can't clear a key as a 5 man group from our guild. Some hot takes here. 1.) Activision Blizzard is trying too hard to get into the esports scene by making their content center around 1%'ers and trying to make it a competition. You can see this with M+ competitions and world First runs (though world first runs make it seem more fun and a race to be the first to pass the challenge) 2.) The era of long grinds for loot is over. Most of the player base WoW has is returning players and does not attract very many new players anymore. Most of us are parents with kids, jobs, and not a lot of time to grind hours for one peice of loot that we wont even use most likely. 3.) The over bloat of currency is insane. I came back after leaving in BFA and the amount of currencies is insane and basically one get trumped by another as ypu progress. Just consolidate them 4.) Make M+ closer to what delves are. Timers are ok but maybe work a different system. Incentivise participation and reward completion even if the key is untimed. Demoting the key on an untimed key is pointless. Especially if you have a system where you can manually request a key to be reduced. It baffles me that they have not figured this out yet
Completely agree - Especially points 2/3. The Currency is so frustrating, - NO. It is not SUPER complicated i understand that.....but god its silly right. Currency should be the same right, One currency. one level of veteran is 10 currency. Then once you get to Hero chain, maybe one level is 50 currency etc etc. thats my thoughts.
The easiest and most effective way would be (IMHO): - Groupfinder like Heroics - Rating and "giving" you the right key and other participants - Game can also use your delve results etc pp - Option to "I want to counsel" and go into a potential lower key to teach (with a reward) - minimize the jump from heroic to m+, make this more of a learning opp - check behaviour in the run, and ask for ratings of the other people AFTER the run - use some system / AI to evaluate players - good rating (not high keys) = faster matching & better loot
I love the idea of a token system. We had it in s4 and it was fun to buy different trinkets, gear, etc and try them out. Blizzard needs to think about what motivates players to play. People are tired of the, “grind,” shit experience in return. I will grind for days and months if I’m having fun. This is an excellent video on this topic. You hit all the major points most of us have faced since roll out. Ty for giving us a voice. ❤
Without a timer than what would make groups don't wait for hero/lust every pack being in a key they can't do at all? The timer isn't the problem. The problem is the game is too complex and people will always try to out gear anything until they get it done. Making normal/heroic/M0s require some skill as learning mechs first to be able to jump into higher stuff.I know people hate having walls (ATTUNEMENTS) IT makes people learn than just out gear it. To me normal dungs should feel like m0s now. The only gear you can get is form delves (t5) Than once you do an normal dung THAT one dung unlocks heroic until you unlock m+ where it already at high enough that you can't out gear it like 12+. Make dungeons hurt way earlier
As any corporation it all depends on what KPI of performance is set for the employees. If longer play sessions per user's is a KPI, and m+ (as it is) was a major factor in this KPI in the past, nothing will change. It's not always about fun but corporate metrics.
so.. find a group to play with regularly. It makes m+ so much more enjoyable than just playing with randos who don't communicate. Sounds like a player problem not a system problem.
Some suggestions: - Remove timer/key depletion (doubt either of these will happen) - Make tanks tougher and tanky again - Make healers healy again (right now as DPS I feel like there's more a focus on defensives for survivability than healers being the focus of surviving a dungeon) - Better loot or another way to purchase mythic loot, getting to the end of a dungeon and getting around 50g after repair costs can be something like 200-1000g is a joke - Make interrupts feel better by disabling insta recast after a kick, this is so annoying when you time an important kick and mob instantly recasts I love M+ and the new TWW dungeons have been fantastic imo - but Season 1 has felt pretty meh in general and right now there's a vast gap in tanks/healers when LFG. I would love to see Blizz implement these suggestions you've outlined as of S02, would bring a lot of players back
I agree with make tanks tanker healers healier and kicks being insta cast immediately is total bullshit. Everything else is fine. Your going after the absolute best gear the game has to offer. It shouldn't be THAT easy and I personally don't think it's THAT hard right now. More gold for repairs at the end for sure tho. Running pluses can get expensive.
Mythic+ things that need to change: - Penalties for leavers, like any other ranked game, if you leave and fail to come back? You are punished by not being able to queue. - Remove breaking the key completely, fail to time it? It does not level up, give it another try. - Gear rewards need to change, cause you run it and at the end you get 2~3 items and usually you can not roll on em. Maybe introduce a roll mechanic same as Raids? Classic WoW & Hardcore both feel like if you get loot it is super impactful, versus Retail where once the new season hits the gear you worked towards becomes obsolete which is not the case for the former two.
Man, I clicked on this thinking you were being too harsh with the title but your explanation in the video is 100% my view as well. The toxicity in mythic+ is the major reason I don't like to pug people. Good takes. WORTH THE FULL WATCH.
I don’t think they should limit dungeons a week. I like to do +10-11 dawnbreaker, mist, and ara multiple times just to get GV unlock. Not for dungeon loot. Locking me out daily would be not cool for me.
The metrics that matter are time spent and returning players. All Blizz cares about is making the process as grindy as possible, to extend the required time people have to log on every single day. It's all about people's attention, and letting people have fun but risking they end up without things to do is not worth it for them. The best example is the anniversary event. They caved by making crests easier to collect, but after people collect everything, what's the point of going back every week and doing quests? I've got everything and I haven't visited that area since then. They want us to be entertained, doing monotonous behavior while they release the next piece of content.
imagine blizzard shooting themselves in the foot if they kill the most consumed content in the game. limiting m+ runs is not an option. in my opinion it is only necessary to lower the death penalty from 15 to 5 seconds and maybe let us farm exactly the equipment we need.
100% this. That's why the recommendation is play the game like an MMO and actually run with friends instead of trying to pug everything and get frustrated that pugs are bad.
One of the things I hate the most about modern mythic+ is how it makes you a dead weight to your guild if you raid log. Back in the day, you were done with dungeons once you started to step into raids. Now I feel like I have to jump into this toxic cesspool just to keep up with the crests/valorstones needed to keep up with the rest of my team.
I hear you. I’m a casual player and my main has pretty much tapped out advancement using delves. After all the horror stories about mythic dungeons I don’t really have much interest in them. Running dungeons in a pug is not my idea of a good time.I liked the system of earning tokens that I could then trade in for Gear. Thank you for your video.
after being a high level raider with multiple server firsts during Wrath, I returned during Shadowlands. I couldn't quit fast enough after seeing what Mythic+ was all about.
Great vid, completely agree with your take. On a larger level, here is what i think would fix wow going forward: Delves, mythic plus, heroic raid, snd conquest pvp gear all reward hero gear and crests to max gear at the same rough speed. Then, continuation to mythic raids, some high delve threshold, and and high mythic plus key threshold all give mythic gear, but just like conquest it only increases your ilvl past max heroic track in that specific content. So mythic delve gear only works in delves etc. Now all players can get to the same base end game progression of hero, snd those that want to go above and beyond in their chosen content get rewarded for that without making the other pillars jealous. Lastly, each mythic level of content has addional titles, mounts, transmigs etc different than the other pillars so each group has something special to show that inly their pillar can give. Think raid mounts vs the special mount skin you get by soloing hard Zaktheir
Yep went the slow route geared up to 619 nearly all hero gear from Delves and Vault, capped out at 4/6 because i need Gilded crests. Now i have to do Mythic 8s or Myth Raid to progress any further. Slow route DELVES or Normal for eventual CREST exchange but at maybe 1-2 level gear upgrades per week at best for a casual. Ran a 8 with guild members went fine, tried to do a 7 solo and naturally we bricked the key. I brough a lower IO/ilvl dps who just could not pump with what we needed. Running a delve and YES the gold reward is also trash there. But you get 2 chests and a bountiful one, that could be 2-3 pieces of gear you could sell, cosmetics, warbound boes, etc. Doing 8 DELVES your value prop is huge vs Mythic. In fact i think your better off doing LFG Heroics Dungeons, Timewalking or Myth 0 from a reward standpoint...
Very solid points - not much hope in any of this coming to fruition, but as a casual who only gets a couple hrs a week I think this is a great move. ESPECIALLY the two leading points. Toxicity is what inhibits any opportunity to learn and join pugs. Don't have time to sit waiting for a group and then it get bricked because someone left and there goes my chance to do anything for that day. Daily lockouts would be a nice touch as well, and damn memory unlocked w/the badge of honors haha i remember saving so many and finally getting a piece and it was so gratifying.
We had a great solution to M+ years ago - Horrific Visions, which are supposedly coming back. Torghast should have been a better version of Horrific Visions. Blizz can't get people to run M+ unless they gate the best rewards behind M+ and now even that isn't working.
I have been saying this for years but they need to add a m+ vendor that lets you purchase gear from dungeons you have finished or key lvls you have completed which would make farming keys way better even if it took a lot of whatever currency to purchase the item
what they really need to do is make M+ have no timer that still infinitely scales and rewards what it does now. then add an option when the player puts the key in to turn the timer back on for "challenge mode" that rewards cosmetics.
A thought: Keep the timer - but not as a penalty - but you get a title if you finish the dungeon the fastest for the day or week or of all time. Gives you bragging rights without toxicity.
The problem with mythic+ is that too many people suck. If players could reliably perform their role in the keys they sign up for there wouldn’t be a huge issue. A lot of the players sharing their complaints don’t understand how the dungeons work and they just ruin keys.
I think they can just extend the timers on low to mid-level keys a bit so its a little more forgiving, remove key lowering for not timing the run, and raise the drop rate to 3/5. Or keep the drop rate, but also use that BC token system. That may be a decent middle ground.
The global key idea is something I had not thought of or heard from elsewhere in the community yet. Daily lockouts are interesting too. I'm not completely sold on it yet, but it'd be cool to see how it plays out in reality.
I think the main issue with removing the timer is it significantly takes away from what mythic+ players enjoy in a challenge. Your points about effeciency are valid, and I don't necessarily have any great soluations myself. But making sure that mythic+ has an element of risk and challenge is part of why many people enjoy it. Other than that, great video!
Crazy, seems you're addressing my current experience to the "T". I'm a dad coming home, do the dad thing, then try to run M8's and M9's to end up in bed after a broken key, no loot, and 50g.... I feel I can't progress since reaching 2300 rating about a month ago...
1. Don't lower the key level on timer fails while also increasing the timers. 2. Sell the gear we chase in dungeons from vendors using a mythic plus only currency that we can grind from completed dungoens. 3. Increase crest drop to 15 for all versions of crest on completion of dungeon. 12 crests drop, 15 to upgrade is flatout stupid. There is always that one dungeon we have to do that is ultra forced with nothing to show of.
I 100% agree with everything you said. M+ kept me active in this game since Legion, but in this expansion, I don't enjoy anything. As a healer, it's so bad-you have so much to do besides healing. The loot is terrible, and you waste so much time from forming a group to finishing the dungeon, only to get nothing. I barely feel like logging in to play anymore.
I would like to add just one idea to this. Add the factor of being able to finish the dungeon without a timer to help folks progress and learn the content as it gets harder. Sometimes we just need a couple minutes to coordinate on tough bosses as the keys ramp up. Keep the timer option for goals of personal best with a group. Lastly, keep all the loot gained at the end to keep folks from jumping in and just spamming one boss and leaving. I like all your ideas.
Step one: Insert a M+ Dungeonfinder based on rating (compared to pvp queue) Requirement: no need to have meta classes to complete dungeons more efficient and global cooldown bl,cr which is useable for any group without any need of a class which can provide these) Step two: Insert loot system = solving x dungeon rewards you with loot, Like a vault which is accessable all the time and you can choose loot on what you need (Equipment,Flask,Gold,Raw material etc.) Step three: Make tanking and healing more attractive and dont punish people too much in m+ for failure That would be my opinion
Blizzard are pretty slow to implement important changes like this. I'd expect a change wont come until Midight minimum, and by them a lot more people are going to be unhappy and quit.
that was a lot worse in Shadowlands. The only problem with m+ actually is that 0 to +3 worth nothing compared to delves and gilded grind is realy too much particularly on alts but you do m+ for weekly chest not for the chest at the end of the dungeon. It had always been like this.
I wish the players could be more open to new people. I spent more than 2 hours trying to get into a +0 when it opened, and I left WoW that same day. I'm coming back now, hoping for something new.
I feel that everything that you just suggested would basically be a dungeon level between heroics and high levelled m+’s…. Blizzard view is for casual players to get gear from regular dungeons and heroics and mythic 1,2,3’s as well as LFR. If Blizzard removed the timer and all the penalties for failing and or not being efficient enough, then there is literally no reason for getting higher keys… there is zero storyline change for this difficulty level and has never been for gearing up. High level Mythic plus dungeons for the sweaty players, and a goal to reach that most people can’t. Before this, the elite / sweaty players would drop off very early in the season due to boredom from the lack of content to challenge them. Mythic raids method dungeons were never met for the average casual player… Remember receiving a gold medal for being first means nothing if everybody else also gets the same gold medal.
I have also cancelled my subscription. M+ is all I like doing and I am pissed at the fact that it is very very unplayable right now for high keys for non meta classes. Even people who play meta are also struggling.
Good points, especially when you reference things blizz has done in the past that would work now. Blizz has everything they need to fix the problems. Blizz also had everything they needed to not make those problems in the first place, and to not perpetuate them as problems.
Yes, this! I refuse to step in any level of Mythic for these exact reasons. Remove the timer!!! If you wanted to, make the chest at the end a mini vault that offers one of two pieces of loot per character OR the tokens to turn in towards gems sockets, valorstones, etc. I'd give a hot take, get rid of Mythic completely and return to Heroic being THE difficulty to master.
great idea, there can be a M+ token (the higher the key that you had finished the better the token that you get so there is going to be multiple types of tokens or just only one type and you get a specific number of that token)...
...was also thinking and these are for me, some easy ways to fix mythic + right now, a part of class balancing and dungeon tunning that this season was also a massive failure: - Remove/rework challengers' peril from +7- +9s. Add it in +10 and up if they want to continue with that shitty affix. - Xalatah boon must be more impactful or even better, a game changer, like the skip portals in the final Season of BFA. 20% CDR and 10% leech is and feels like shit, even mobs get a shield with damage and haste buff, like wtf. - Remove key depletion. Give us a currency or maybe with those useless valorstones to keep rerolling dungeons. - Remove timer from +2 - +7s. - Add the timer as an affix starting at +8s but, Mythic gear in the Vault should start also at m+ 8. - Checkpoints should spawn at the start of each boss defeated, is just nonsense to time a dungeon with 16 wipes no issues and then, with others the key is insta dead in the first wipe because of the runback, like wtf. - +10s and up should be the pinnacle, put there some of the annoying affixes and give more incentives for people who wants to keep pushing but nothing that increases FOMO, portals are fine, but from +11 to ∞ there is absolutely nothing, maybe some cosmetics, banners, warband login screens, even housing items, that we are getting that. - Remove the insta recast of abilities when mobs are CCed or stunned, like wtf is this. - Listen to community feedback about the dungeon rotations, there are some good ones, but we get Siege of Boralass, and Borechagon again for the third time like, who asked? - A mid-season token and vendor to target items like bullions/dinars or freeze vault slots. - 50 gold, 12 crests (5 if you don't time the key) is absolute garbage, should scale with the difficulty. If +8s give 10 crests, +9s 12 crests or whatever and on, and on, and on, same with gold and valorstones or a currency to keep rerolling dungeons. - Report leavers option. - Give dps, more agency, like the second boss in mists that can only be interrupted by the tank, same with dps, they miss the interrupt they get some damage debuff. - Remove valorstones or the cap, make them warbound. Also, when we get the weathered, carved, runed or glided achievement in our main as we go unlocking the transmutations, give us also an option to send them to alts, at least in a mid-season patch.
I started playing wow classic, I used to play TWW, I was a discipline healer who made not very high keys, 11, 10. I realized that I was in constant stress, I stopped playing because I really finished playing stressed, because of all the mechanics , and people who had to do. Also really my favorite class is a class that is not "meta" so when playing it it was impossible to get invited and grow
if you are happy doing delves and limiting ur character to champion / hero loot + hero vaults then u do not have to push keys. Doing +7 keys gives you the same rewards as the delves do. If the 10 weekly keys are too hard and ur happy with delves, then dont try to push the keys.
I log in 4 hours a week now. I stopped doing mythics and I don’t raid. Idk if I’m coming to an end with wow, but I catch myself doing their 20th anniversary events and I log. Delves are good to get gear but i much prefer to interact and be challenged to do mythics with others. I stopped raiding once mythics came and now I don’t do mythics at all.
Mythic+ Needs to be added to the dungeon finder tab as Solo Queue difficulty and thats just the first step second is maybe removing the keys aswell and allow players to choose in which level of difficulty they want to participate in. Just a thought !!!
Yesterday in Classic I did a SM Arm run with 2 ret paladins, a feral druid healer, a feral druid tank, and a warlock...Almost everyone was undergeared, new to WoW, and under level for the dungeon. We didn't have 1 death, we all had an amazing time, I left the run hurting from laughter and elated with dopamine. (and no one got the loot they came in for) With ZERO toxic metaslave Millhouses screaming in all caps for ret aura in the chat or kicking people at a glance of their score lvl. It was wonderful. Mythic+ should not be timed, remove the timers and let the metaslave Millhouses wipe the sweat from their heads and actually interact with other players who enjoy the actual game... not the purchased clout from pulling a slot machine lever: Retail WoW in a nutshell.
Pally tank here with 3,1k IO I agree with alot of points u got. But having a daily lockout would be horrible, the toxicity would skyrocket if you got only one chance on the day to clear the dungeon. But there is so much blizz can do to improve that system. but it seems like blizz is doing nothing. Like why always so much mechanics and alot of mechanics can oneshot you even in lower keys like 8 or 9. The Healer and Tank changes at the start of the season was a horrible idea. There are way less Tank/Healer players than DDs. the ratio is probably 25/75. Blizz needs to make Tanking and Healing way more attractive for normal players. And with normal i dont mean ppl who can barely time +4 keys. i mean ppl who struggle a bit with 10s and 11s. Catering to the 1% or maybe 0,1% is a real bad strategy. And they dont even have to do that since m+ is designed as an infinite scaling system. Like who the hell cares if the top 0,1% can clear a 19 or a 39? Just make it more fun.
The biggest issue is Mythic+ being competitive to raiding when it comes to gear. If we look at the classic model, you level up, you doing dungeons and that in turn opens up raiding. If we look at the classic modes now etc they’re hugely popular because they go back to this basic MMORPG concept. The game should funnel players to this rather than a Mythic+ model, that as you’ve stated really just doesn’t have the rewards to match the “achievable” content.
M+ and raider IO destroyed WoW and it's community. Ive said this for years now, and I'm happy it seems like everyone is starting to get it. I want WoW to feel like an mmo again
Putting a 24-hour lock a mythic Plus is horrible for the game, not everyone can get on and run a key everyday, the vault system would have to change too because you couldn't do eight in a 7-day week, forcing people to get on every day is horrible, people that can't log daily will fall behind and we had that expansions ago with dailies people that can't get on every day fall behind in gearing. The problem with M+ is that is harder than it has been in the past and the average player just isn't good enough to complete 7s and up in time, most players don't kick, dispell or use CC. At lower keys and than they think they should be able to complete higher content. The average player in WOW over gears content vs learn content. Simple way to fix M+ is increase crest drops and give the same number for failing a key, this will fix the toxicity.
I honestly dislike the idea of a lockout for m+. As someone who enjoys spamming keys at the high end and the challenge of the increasing difficulty. I honestly just enjoy running keys, improving my performance from dungeon to dungeon. I run alot of keys, sometimes quite a bit past my 8 10s a week. Some of that is helping guildies or friends running keys. I am also at a point where I don’t need gear, but don’t really enjoy playing alts currently. One thing that I think should be adjusted is at a certain key level you should be able to receive mythic loot. Whether it’s by a vendor system or just completing a key in time at a certain level. Just put some of the better/best drops in the raid so you can incentivize both. There are some good points here, but removing the timer and adding a lockout doesn’t sound great to me.
@@TheComebackKids so 8 m+ a week one dungeon each, no man that is a horrible idea how will we push keys? it would die immediately? the best take i heard is to make keys under lvl 12 not deplete anymore.
What makes it unplayable is the fact they took away the aoe disrupts and force a kick for EVERY cast. They revert this change and take away the death timer, m+ will be great again
i really love wow, but as soon as i get to that point in endgame where it becomes the group finder simulator i INSTANTLY lose all interest in the game and just eventually not log in anymore and play something else. i mean really the time it takes for any other game to launch, get into and have fun versus all the steps you have to go through in wow to finally get into a key just to get 0 loot in the end. and then you have to repeat that process again??? who in their right mind would choose to do that. and the gameplay is not even fun in its current state. i think they can completely rework and overhaul m+ and actually make it really great and fun but ive spent all my copium and i just dont think its gonna happen man 😔
I’m struggling higher level of keystone as a Guardian Druid. I enjoy the timing aspect of keys, makes me feel accomplished when timing it but damn I’m getting wrecked by a single cast from a trash or boss without cds and I can’t cd all the time, sometime I have a a few seconds of wait before next cd comes and I get absolutely whooped
If you're happy to get i lvl 619, delves won't cut it. We get 2 runed crest only per delve unless we are able to grind m+ 7 to get 10 to 12 pcs of runed crest. If you want to get 626 i lvl atleast then it's more difficult because we now look at grinding m+ 8 and above and the last 2 bosses of nerubar palace to get those gilded crest. It took me 3 months to get to ilvl 625 playing casually. I'm enjoying the slow grind though
I like removing the timer idea and move to a death counter maximum like delves. don’t deplete key if failed. I want the option to spam a certain dungeon on the 2 days a week I have scheduled time to play. Dungeons still get harder has key is advanced and they could move the curve if just doing death counters to make it harder. Good ideas in this videos though, the top 1% won’t maintain their quarterly goals.
as a player whos NEVER played retail until the last month(started in tbc classic, played wrath/sod quit sod) i actually have been kinda enjoying it.. but I think its because I don't know any better? Everybody else who has played other xpacs said it was better so I kinda trust them on that, but me personally i've had a lot of fun gearing up my main to 626 which is MORE than enough for me to pump and be happy, however then it comes the issue of gearing up alts.. Im also a player who doesnt have any aspiration to push past +10 keys which i feel like the keys above 10 are where the real issues are for mythic dungeons. Since thanksgiving break the amount of keys has been dropping like flies by the day however..
One thing that kills M+ for me is depletion, and for example, I run a +10 Stone vault and get a new key after running that. Oh, would you look at that stone vault again.... keys should be on a rotation. You can't get one that you've already done.
Blizzard did say they aren't changing anything for this current second but in future seasons they have some changes coming.. we will see what they change cause it's definitely been toxic and frustrating at times. I have had some badass groups and had a good time so it's not all bad. Agree a lot of these changes need to happen tho! I've been playing other games because it just takes so damn long to even get into a group at times
A lot of people claim that gear matters and use that as an excuse onto why certain gear. This is simply not true. Whether you get mythic track gear at key difficulty 10 or key difficulty 1, it does not matter. What matters is the rating on Raider IO. I see no reason to gatekeep Mythic track gear behind such tough keys. it should be level 6 for mythic upgrade crests and 8 for gear in the vault. Increasing drop rates is a nice bonus on top
I love your ideas. But I’m very very sceptical Blizzard will consider them. I think the MDI and TGP have too big of an influence. I think the competitive angle is getting too much attention and overshadows the fun, learning, real mmorpg part. I would love it if I can just sit down do a dungeon and feel rewarded without the stress of a timer and efficiency. I think this will also help with the tank and healer problem. I’m not going to tank with the current state. If I overestimate my tankiness I brick a key, people will leave and I’ve wasted their and my time. I like the daily lock out. It makes it possible to increase item reward levels, because it isn’t infinite loot anymore. I wouldn’t even mind a weekly lockout and the introduction of brackets. So you have a lockout on for example range 2-4, 5-7, 8-10 and 11 and higher. You can still run more dungeons, but you won’t get any gear from it. Maybe you can still get other rewards like gold, crests till cap, something else …
I've been a Mythic plus Stan since legion, only playing for M+ the time to reward is fucked. I Raided this season on my Pally and only ran M+ on my shaman and my pally got geared far quicker than my shaman by a mile. the 2/5 players getting gear and it actually being useful is abysmal. I've been stuck with heroic biss trinkets since week 2 of the season launch. something needs to change in m+ also the great vault reward stuff I already have is way to high there should 0 reason I'm having to take tokens the first 4 weeks of a season. grind out 8 tens for token each week burnt me to the point were by week 6 I only did one 10 and stopped playing outside of guild's wanting to run keys. I did my share of grinding 8's crest and it got old after getting 200 of them M+ as a hole this season is just bad. (I will quit the entirely if delves continue to be better than m+). since poe 2 has game out Wow is becoming less appealing to me now and honestly considering the ideal of just un subbing till till something is done to fix m+ there plenty of other better games with devs who want to respect our time as a player. key points 1 fix the loot in M+ 2 add in venders that let you target trinkets, rings, neck, and weapons. 3 bring back tanks agency 4 bring big pulls 5 just make M+ fun again like it has been in legion, bfa, sl, and early dragon flight.
the biggest reason i do NOT do mythic+ is the toxicity and the repetition that is RICH in grind. i have been calling Blizzard the casino cartel for months. they just love putting .005% chance on everything. why? to keep collectors, completionists, addicts, loyalists, and legendary in-game investors subscribed. the smart ones quit the game when their limits are reached. i have invested hours, skinning, specializing, and baiting for a green bear tame. skin drop from keen-eyed cyan. i quit these hunts. So Blizz will remove one of their casino enterprises. yay for M+ players. i have always appreciated complaints because from time to time, you get what you want. and, yes, feedbacks are fundamentally complaints. but complaints are always good. it is why you enjoy HVAC and Cars isn't it? anyway, the casino cartel lives on in other areas for Blizz.
I agree with everything you said other than the lockouts. Gating content through a timer is a way of making your game take longer than it should, and the need to implement such gates means your content loop is flawed. I come from osrs, which has no time gates on any content including Raid. Now the old school runescape system would not work in it's entirety in a seasonal mmo like wow but It bares thinking about. People to this day still can't clear normal palace in pugs. You can cry "skill issue" or "just watch a video" but when your only incentive to run the content is a weekly lockout the average player isn't going to learn anything other than just go in get as far as you can and just hope for a good vault slot. That is poor game design in my opinion. End game content should be hard but it's a hard that you should want to master not just get through.
I played a tank in retail for a long time. Main Raid tank for Normal and Heroic and did a LOT of Mythic plus. Pushing keys fairly far. The toxicity is what killed my desire to play. People leaving because we weren't going fast enough after two or three trash pulls, or berating other players for how they do things. Not to mention the gear treadmill of older gear thats barely better than what you have. Just to cover up that gear with the transmog system. Looking cool used to be a rewards for getting good/cool gear. Now its meaningless. Im over on the classic anniversary servers having fun. Acting like Retail just doesn't exist.
The impact of delves on Retail wow reminds me of the impact incursions had on SoD. Incursions were the stake through SoD's heart. And it's sounding like delves are the stake in retail.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Panicking? Seems they’re doing nothing
Right, truly click bait, par for the course here.
Yeah clickbait title such loser thing to do
They are just chilling, looking at bronto money coming in on the beach. They are planning the next micro transaction move for sure, maybe at 95% resources, while the rest is working on some gameplay. M+ will never be in their scope and never has been.
They don't even balance the game anymore they left everything on gods mercy and trying to figure out brutosaur with bank and summon stone for 200$.
@@chend2217you realize the devs who work on the game never see a single cent of the brutosaur money, right?
THERE. IS. NO. LEARNING. CURVE. Heroic dungeons don't offer learning because people speed run them. Delves make you out gear low keys then(technically but not BiS or sim'd well) so players have to watch vids and/or read WOWhead and pray to God they don't mess it up. Then after losing a ton of self confidence they'll finally get ok and move up but not before ruining the experience for themselves or other players. There has to be a way to learn mechanics and affixes before timing keys. There just has to be. No other way around it
…. Go watch some UA-cam and learn dungeon mechanics. A lot of m+ is a player not wanting to learn anything and just be carried
@@anthonyconsilvio449 imagine the best way to learn how to play a game is watching videos instead of playing the game. Peak design.
@@anthonyconsilvio449 thank you for reading the first part of my comment and not the rest of it. Which is my point already. Watching a video doesn't make you prepared. You learning by doing it. But there's no learning curve to it. Especially at tank and heals. If you have to learn those it's almost required at least 3 other people in your group will not have a good time.
They should update the companion system to que in specific mythic plus dungeon boss fights to practice mechanics for each boss
@@Lucas-st1xq Well that always was the essence of connecting knowledge on boss fights in wow as an example. Considering how hard it is for players to adjust to mechanics. Let's say, use skills and interrupts in correct situations. It totally makes sense, to get the help you need, before taking the challenge. Just as it is a possibility to throw addons in your interface, to wake you up when mechanics are triggered.
This is blizzards last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last last chance
Why are you here?
Last chance? People will play it no matter what
Shill
I've been playing Wow for 20 years, and I love the game. As a father, I don't have time to deal with petulant misbehavior, so I don't run Mythics. They are not welcoming at all. All of your reasoning for not running them is spot on. If they made the changes you suggested, I would certainly love to level keys, but not until major changes like removing the timer are made. The incessant angst I hear in all these videos about fear of broken keys would put anyone off that has limited time. I have enough stress in my life, that I am not going to add more to it from an RPG with bad actors. Until changes are made, Mythics will remain a part of the game that a small percentage of people play.
It really ruins the experience. I can hold my own in M+ but I probably won't be going past +10s, this season kinda sucked....and I agree, something needs to be done about toxicity, it goes far past the whole "Get gud breh" mindset
I know the mechs and dungeons well but even seeing other players get flamed in PuGs isn't nice, happens a lot. People need to learn. Yes, by 10s you should know the mechs well, but players are human and make mistakes - they don't deserve a verbal beating for not executing with perfection
That last part you said. I too have enough stress in my life and not as much time to game anymore. So i decided to quit all online gaming. I don't have the patience or want the blood pressure going up because of other people's crappy behavior. I quit at the beginning of November and in that time I have already felt better not having to worry about logging in because i feel like my $15/mo is going to waste. Going back to single player games and indie games has made gaming fun for me again. after 20 years myself, I just knew it was time to put it behind me finally.
Well. As a father of two, and a required focused work career to uphold, I as well have limited time. So I made a Warrior tank, and went easy in the queue time. The only reason I play keys now, is doing a single 10 once a week, to get the weekly vault item. There is absolutely no reason for me to push further. But to reach and clear +10 at the current state, is absolutely doable. Unless you don't adjust and do the required rotations/interrupts, pulls and forth. I am totally okay with losing a key timer, failing it or whatever. The problem is the toxicity in the player base. There are so many players, not able to accept a failure or other people doing mistakes. The way I climbed, was just to team up with a couple of polite and focused players I met. Every time I have smelled just a small amount of attitude or rude behaviour, I instant put people on ignore.
"Mythics will remain a part of the game that a small percentage of people play."
no offense but it has been shown that M+ is by far the game mode with the most participation in retail WoW.
removing the timer would destroy an infinitely scaling game mode like this. "remove the timer" is an easy thing to say, but think about the repercussions. you now only ever have tiny pulls because why risk anything and you are now forced to afk all the time to wait for Bloodlust.
i understand that Mythic+ may not be for you as you don't have the time or energy to invest into it, but you don't have to personally like everything in this game.
as a more casual player you can still experience the dungeons in M0 and you can still challenge yourself in Delves, Normal and Heroic Raid.
if you don't enjoy optimizing your efficiency in dungeon runs you absolutely never have to step a foot into M+ and that's fine, but you don't have to try to get it removed for the people that love the game mode. ;)
Been playing 20 years and you’re still clicking that’s the problem bud
What a great video! It addresses some very important things. I am a dad of 4, I run M+ during the weekends, and the gear rewards SUCK! If you get any...
Well the reason why mythic + is bad for getting gear is simply that for the casual player just like back in the day before mythic+ was even a thing Heroic Raid is supposed to be the main source of gear. Mythic+ is not supposed to be a loot pinata it is supposed to be content for people who like to challenge themselves and time the next level. It is like people playing souls games on the hardest difficulty it is only about the challenge not about anything else. Getting gear is just the cerry on top
1000% agree boss. I could never remember the name, but the badges system worked out perfectly. Was a great way to fill up slots when drops weren't dropping. I don't think I'd want to guarantee loot every time I run, but significant adjustments in the loot system to ensure the drops I do get are worth it would be swell.
Haven't done a M+ since I hit KSM 4 weeks ago, when in previous seasons I would go to KSH for fun. Delves completely cannibalized the need to do M+ below 7s and for many players that was a huge jump in difficulty with no learning curve. Putting the Gilded Crests 3 levels higher than previous seasons was also a huge mistake and created an upgrade cockblock. IMO instead of having 12 Gilded Crests drop at M8 and up, a portion of them should start dropping sooner. Perhaps M+5 can drop a mix of 3 gilded/9 runed and the ratio can gradually ramp up to full gilded at M8.
You get 3 gilded from the delver's bounty chest - so technically you could gear up that way but it would take forever.
blizzard is stuck in the loot gate-keeping mentality and the grind treadmill. they replaced AP with upgrade crests. you gotta run (and TIME) a minimum of 8 +8's per week per character to stay relelvant. the grind is just there. its stupid. and they also go "no. only mythic raiders deserve the best gear. or they'll throw a fit about how much harder their content is". just let m+ cap out at mythic raid level gear without needing the damn vault. just cap it at a drop rate/week roughly equivalent to mythic raid.
8s not gonna help, they give heroic track at vault. At some point you'll be stuck on this track, that's why you gotta get those vault mythic drops early in the season. This also why DF S3 was great, because vault mythic track dropped from a lower key than now.
@minciNashu The eights wasn't reference to the mythic crests. You are correct you need tens to get vault gear at mythic track.
Though I should say I don't see a reason why mythic Plus at some level couldn't drop mythic track gear naturally without the vault.
This
The entire difficulty system needs a massive rework
I got told that anything shy of mythic is “too brain dead” to learn anything and M+ is where you go to learn how to play a role
You should be learning in Normal
Know what you’re doing in heroic
And have mastered to hit mythic
M+ and mythic raiding SHOULD be kept to the top 1%
But having so much gear locked behind it is where the issues truly begin
@dragonriderabens9761 I agree. The gear gatekeeping is so stupid. Let everyone get max ilvl with game time, then let those who want challenge content go do it. Gearing is honestly the worst part of the game. It mattered when RP mattered, but now it's literally a replacement for content. "We don't need to make enough content to justify a 60 dollar price tag. Just put in a gearing system and the game will take 6x as long for mains and alts"
@@hestaby7829 Because it has gotten 2 extra tracks and it makes you not being bored from the first couple of weeks. There's a reason why Mythic raid gives you Myth gear, it's because it's weekly content.
After all that stress, you only get 12 gilded crests per run, but for an upgrade you need 15. That's horseshit implementation on player "engagement"
or 5 :))))))
Well, at least in 11.0.7 we get 20 per timed and 16 for failed.
How about kill the timer and add a death counter like delves. If your group fails, you can restart.
Love this idea. Time rushing makes people fail. You would be able to do slow safe pulls, and your rewarded for being a good team, Not a greatly fast team lol.
Agreed, I think the timer is the most toxic enabling thing.
pugs will just quit
I have watched like 10 videos about "how to fix M+" and literally nobody has suggested removing the timer and adding death count. I honestly think this may be the way, great suggestion and brownie points for originality
Routes are core to the experience of playing M+, without a timer there is no need for routes or skips or big pulls. In fact a hard death counter simply incentivizes a very risk-averse gameplay. Its simply not the same game mode at that point.
As a Tank trying to push into upper keys, I agree that the level of toxicity in M+ is awful. Even with my guild it just ruins the entire mood when we can't clear a key as a 5 man group from our guild.
Some hot takes here.
1.) Activision Blizzard is trying too hard to get into the esports scene by making their content center around 1%'ers and trying to make it a competition. You can see this with M+ competitions and world First runs (though world first runs make it seem more fun and a race to be the first to pass the challenge)
2.) The era of long grinds for loot is over. Most of the player base WoW has is returning players and does not attract very many new players anymore. Most of us are parents with kids, jobs, and not a lot of time to grind hours for one peice of loot that we wont even use most likely.
3.) The over bloat of currency is insane. I came back after leaving in BFA and the amount of currencies is insane and basically one get trumped by another as ypu progress. Just consolidate them
4.) Make M+ closer to what delves are. Timers are ok but maybe work a different system. Incentivise participation and reward completion even if the key is untimed. Demoting the key on an untimed key is pointless. Especially if you have a system where you can manually request a key to be reduced. It baffles me that they have not figured this out yet
I having nothing to add to this.
Completely agree - Especially points 2/3. The Currency is so frustrating, - NO. It is not SUPER complicated i understand that.....but god its silly right. Currency should be the same right, One currency. one level of veteran is 10 currency. Then once you get to Hero chain, maybe one level is 50 currency etc etc.
thats my thoughts.
U are 100% on the money about the currencies. Just go back to Justice/Valor & Honor/Conquest
This is perfect.
i like M+ like it is. Just give out more crests and its perfect.
The easiest and most effective way would be (IMHO):
- Groupfinder like Heroics
- Rating and "giving" you the right key and other participants
- Game can also use your delve results etc pp
- Option to "I want to counsel" and go into a potential lower key to teach (with a reward)
- minimize the jump from heroic to m+, make this more of a learning opp
- check behaviour in the run, and ask for ratings of the other people AFTER the run
- use some system / AI to evaluate players
- good rating (not high keys) = faster matching & better loot
I love the idea of a token system. We had it in s4 and it was fun to buy different trinkets, gear, etc and try them out. Blizzard needs to think about what motivates players to play. People are tired of the, “grind,” shit experience in return. I will grind for days and months if I’m having fun. This is an excellent video on this topic. You hit all the major points most of us have faced since roll out. Ty for giving us a voice. ❤
Without a timer than what would make groups don't wait for hero/lust every pack being in a key they can't do at all? The timer isn't the problem. The problem is the game is too complex and people will always try to out gear anything until they get it done. Making normal/heroic/M0s require some skill as learning mechs first to be able to jump into higher stuff.I know people hate having walls (ATTUNEMENTS) IT makes people learn than just out gear it. To me normal dungs should feel like m0s now. The only gear you can get is form delves (t5) Than once you do an normal dung THAT one dung unlocks heroic until you unlock m+ where it already at high enough that you can't out gear it like 12+. Make dungeons hurt way earlier
As any corporation it all depends on what KPI of performance is set for the employees. If longer play sessions per user's is a KPI, and m+ (as it is) was a major factor in this KPI in the past, nothing will change. It's not always about fun but corporate metrics.
A man, who understands that the "we play together" is more important than the $$$.
If only they would understand!
Brilliant.
so.. find a group to play with regularly. It makes m+ so much more enjoyable than just playing with randos who don't communicate. Sounds like a player problem not a system problem.
Some suggestions:
- Remove timer/key depletion (doubt either of these will happen)
- Make tanks tougher and tanky again
- Make healers healy again (right now as DPS I feel like there's more a focus on defensives for survivability than healers being the focus of surviving a dungeon)
- Better loot or another way to purchase mythic loot, getting to the end of a dungeon and getting around 50g after repair costs can be something like 200-1000g is a joke
- Make interrupts feel better by disabling insta recast after a kick, this is so annoying when you time an important kick and mob instantly recasts
I love M+ and the new TWW dungeons have been fantastic imo - but Season 1 has felt pretty meh in general and right now there's a vast gap in tanks/healers when LFG. I would love to see Blizz implement these suggestions you've outlined as of S02, would bring a lot of players back
The gold and the healers heal is my only complain.
One other addition which might be cool - Allow gear that has been maxxed out 6/6, to move to next track
100% - I wish as a healer keeping people alive was my sole responsibility, and i had the tools and throughput to do so.
@@TheClockwork1337 Enter this expansion super excited to be a healer. Just to give up in the 3 week of mythic plus.
I agree with make tanks tanker healers healier and kicks being insta cast immediately is total bullshit. Everything else is fine. Your going after the absolute best gear the game has to offer. It shouldn't be THAT easy and I personally don't think it's THAT hard right now. More gold for repairs at the end for sure tho. Running pluses can get expensive.
ngl 400-1000g repairs for 50 gold at the end of the dungeon and no loot is an actual damn joke
Have you tried... Not dying?
Mythic+ things that need to change:
- Penalties for leavers, like any other ranked game, if you leave and fail to come back? You are punished by not being able to queue.
- Remove breaking the key completely, fail to time it? It does not level up, give it another try.
- Gear rewards need to change, cause you run it and at the end you get 2~3 items and usually you can not roll on em. Maybe introduce a roll mechanic same as Raids?
Classic WoW & Hardcore both feel like if you get loot it is super impactful, versus Retail where once the new season hits the gear you worked towards becomes obsolete which is not the case for the former two.
Man, I clicked on this thinking you were being too harsh with the title but your explanation in the video is 100% my view as well. The toxicity in mythic+ is the major reason I don't like to pug people. Good takes. WORTH THE FULL WATCH.
I don’t think they should limit dungeons a week. I like to do +10-11 dawnbreaker, mist, and ara multiple times just to get GV unlock. Not for dungeon loot. Locking me out daily would be not cool for me.
Well, hopefully blizz can figure out a way for people to unlock 3 slots that doesn't involve leaving m+ in its current state.
The metrics that matter are time spent and returning players. All Blizz cares about is making the process as grindy as possible, to extend the required time people have to log on every single day. It's all about people's attention, and letting people have fun but risking they end up without things to do is not worth it for them.
The best example is the anniversary event. They caved by making crests easier to collect, but after people collect everything, what's the point of going back every week and doing quests? I've got everything and I haven't visited that area since then. They want us to be entertained, doing monotonous behavior while they release the next piece of content.
imagine blizzard shooting themselves in the foot if they kill the most consumed content in the game. limiting m+ runs is not an option. in my opinion it is only necessary to lower the death penalty from 15 to 5 seconds and maybe let us farm exactly the equipment we need.
I think mythic+ are great as long as you're doing it with people who actually know what to do.
Either you are playing with friends or you are trolling.
100% this. That's why the recommendation is play the game like an MMO and actually run with friends instead of trying to pug everything and get frustrated that pugs are bad.
@@sergiodanielbentomesquita5762 what's stoppin you from playing with friends? Or making new friends in game.
One of the things I hate the most about modern mythic+ is how it makes you a dead weight to your guild if you raid log. Back in the day, you were done with dungeons once you started to step into raids. Now I feel like I have to jump into this toxic cesspool just to keep up with the crests/valorstones needed to keep up with the rest of my team.
I hear you. I’m a casual player and my main has pretty much tapped out advancement using delves. After all the horror stories about mythic dungeons I don’t really have much interest in them. Running dungeons in a pug is not my idea of a good time.I liked the system of earning tokens that I could then trade in for Gear. Thank you for your video.
after being a high level raider with multiple server firsts during Wrath, I returned during Shadowlands. I couldn't quit fast enough after seeing what Mythic+ was all about.
Great vid, completely agree with your take. On a larger level, here is what i think would fix wow going forward:
Delves, mythic plus, heroic raid, snd conquest pvp gear all reward hero gear and crests to max gear at the same rough speed. Then, continuation to mythic raids, some high delve threshold, and and high mythic plus key threshold all give mythic gear, but just like conquest it only increases your ilvl past max heroic track in that specific content. So mythic delve gear only works in delves etc.
Now all players can get to the same base end game progression of hero, snd those that want to go above and beyond in their chosen content get rewarded for that without making the other pillars jealous.
Lastly, each mythic level of content has addional titles, mounts, transmigs etc different than the other pillars so each group has something special to show that inly their pillar can give. Think raid mounts vs the special mount skin you get by soloing hard Zaktheir
Yep went the slow route geared up to 619 nearly all hero gear from Delves and Vault, capped out at 4/6 because i need Gilded crests. Now i have to do Mythic 8s or Myth Raid to progress any further. Slow route DELVES or Normal for eventual CREST exchange but at maybe 1-2 level gear upgrades per week at best for a casual. Ran a 8 with guild members went fine, tried to do a 7 solo and naturally we bricked the key. I brough a lower IO/ilvl dps who just could not pump with what we needed. Running a delve and YES the gold reward is also trash there. But you get 2 chests and a bountiful one, that could be 2-3 pieces of gear you could sell, cosmetics, warbound boes, etc. Doing 8 DELVES your value prop is huge vs Mythic. In fact i think your better off doing LFG Heroics Dungeons, Timewalking or Myth 0 from a reward standpoint...
Very solid points - not much hope in any of this coming to fruition, but as a casual who only gets a couple hrs a week I think this is a great move. ESPECIALLY the two leading points. Toxicity is what inhibits any opportunity to learn and join pugs. Don't have time to sit waiting for a group and then it get bricked because someone left and there goes my chance to do anything for that day. Daily lockouts would be a nice touch as well, and damn memory unlocked w/the badge of honors haha i remember saving so many and finally getting a piece and it was so gratifying.
100% agree - especially about taking the timer out. I tanked one M+, won't do it again until they make changes.
We had a great solution to M+ years ago - Horrific Visions, which are supposedly coming back. Torghast should have been a better version of Horrific Visions. Blizz can't get people to run M+ unless they gate the best rewards behind M+ and now even that isn't working.
I have been saying this for years but they need to add a m+ vendor that lets you purchase gear from dungeons you have finished or key lvls you have completed which would make farming keys way better even if it took a lot of whatever currency to purchase the item
what they really need to do is make M+ have no timer that still infinitely scales and rewards what it does now. then add an option when the player puts the key in to turn the timer back on for "challenge mode" that rewards cosmetics.
A thought: Keep the timer - but not as a penalty - but you get a title if you finish the dungeon the fastest for the day or week or of all time. Gives you bragging rights without toxicity.
The problem with mythic+ is that too many people suck. If players could reliably perform their role in the keys they sign up for there wouldn’t be a huge issue. A lot of the players sharing their complaints don’t understand how the dungeons work and they just ruin keys.
I think they can just extend the timers on low to mid-level keys a bit so its a little more forgiving, remove key lowering for not timing the run, and raise the drop rate to 3/5. Or keep the drop rate, but also use that BC token system. That may be a decent middle ground.
If Delves gave Mythic Gear and regular Gilded crests besides 1 per map find for highest levels, I would never do a Mythic+ ever again.
The global key idea is something I had not thought of or heard from elsewhere in the community yet. Daily lockouts are interesting too. I'm not completely sold on it yet, but it'd be cool to see how it plays out in reality.
I think the main issue with removing the timer is it significantly takes away from what mythic+ players enjoy in a challenge. Your points about effeciency are valid, and I don't necessarily have any great soluations myself. But making sure that mythic+ has an element of risk and challenge is part of why many people enjoy it. Other than that, great video!
Crazy, seems you're addressing my current experience to the "T". I'm a dad coming home, do the dad thing, then try to run M8's and M9's to end up in bed after a broken key, no loot, and 50g.... I feel I can't progress since reaching 2300 rating about a month ago...
1. Don't lower the key level on timer fails while also increasing the timers.
2. Sell the gear we chase in dungeons from vendors using a mythic plus only currency that we can grind from completed dungoens.
3. Increase crest drop to 15 for all versions of crest on completion of dungeon. 12 crests drop, 15 to upgrade is flatout stupid. There is always that one dungeon we have to do that is ultra forced with nothing to show of.
I 100% agree with everything you said. M+ kept me active in this game since Legion, but in this expansion, I don't enjoy anything. As a healer, it's so bad-you have so much to do besides healing. The loot is terrible, and you waste so much time from forming a group to finishing the dungeon, only to get nothing. I barely feel like logging in to play anymore.
I would like to add just one idea to this. Add the factor of being able to finish the dungeon without a timer to help folks progress and learn the content as it gets harder. Sometimes we just need a couple minutes to coordinate on tough bosses as the keys ramp up. Keep the timer option for goals of personal best with a group. Lastly, keep all the loot gained at the end to keep folks from jumping in and just spamming one boss and leaving. I like all your ideas.
Step one: Insert a M+ Dungeonfinder based on rating (compared to pvp queue) Requirement: no need to have meta classes to complete dungeons more efficient and global cooldown bl,cr which is useable for any group without any need of a class which can provide these)
Step two: Insert loot system = solving x dungeon rewards you with loot, Like a vault which is accessable all the time and you can choose loot on what you need (Equipment,Flask,Gold,Raw material etc.)
Step three: Make tanking and healing more attractive and dont punish people too much in m+ for failure
That would be my opinion
Blizzard are pretty slow to implement important changes like this. I'd expect a change wont come until Midight minimum, and by them a lot more people are going to be unhappy and quit.
Great ideas. Definitely should all be implemented.
Thank you very much!
that was a lot worse in Shadowlands. The only problem with m+ actually is that 0 to +3 worth nothing compared to delves and gilded grind is realy too much particularly on alts but you do m+ for weekly chest not for the chest at the end of the dungeon. It had always been like this.
I wish the players could be more open to new people. I spent more than 2 hours trying to get into a +0 when it opened, and I left WoW that same day. I'm coming back now, hoping for something new.
Bring a vendor to target gear. Get rid of the time until +10 or higher. Apply a week long debuff if you are a leaver and no vault slots.
I feel that everything that you just suggested would basically be a dungeon level between heroics and high levelled m+’s…. Blizzard view is for casual players to get gear from regular dungeons and heroics and mythic 1,2,3’s as well as LFR.
If Blizzard removed the timer and all the penalties for failing and or not being efficient enough, then there is literally no reason for getting higher keys… there is zero storyline change for this difficulty level and has never been for gearing up. High level Mythic plus dungeons for the sweaty players, and a goal to reach that most people can’t. Before this, the elite / sweaty players would drop off very early in the season due to boredom from the lack of content to challenge them. Mythic raids method dungeons were never met for the average casual player…
Remember receiving a gold medal for being first means nothing if everybody else also gets the same gold medal.
I have also cancelled my subscription. M+ is all I like doing and I am pissed at the fact that it is very very unplayable right now for high keys for non meta classes. Even people who play meta are also struggling.
Good points, especially when you reference things blizz has done in the past that would work now. Blizz has everything they need to fix the problems. Blizz also had everything they needed to not make those problems in the first place, and to not perpetuate them as problems.
Absolute Chad ideas. Keep up the good work bro!
Yes, this! I refuse to step in any level of Mythic for these exact reasons. Remove the timer!!! If you wanted to, make the chest at the end a mini vault that offers one of two pieces of loot per character OR the tokens to turn in towards gems sockets, valorstones, etc. I'd give a hot take, get rid of Mythic completely and return to Heroic being THE difficulty to master.
great idea, there can be a M+ token (the higher the key that you had finished the better the token that you get so there is going to be multiple types of tokens or just only one type and you get a specific number of that token)...
...was also thinking and these are for me, some easy ways to fix mythic + right now, a part of class balancing and dungeon tunning that this season was also a massive failure:
- Remove/rework challengers' peril from +7- +9s. Add it in +10 and up if they want to continue with that shitty affix.
- Xalatah boon must be more impactful or even better, a game changer, like the skip portals in the final Season of BFA. 20% CDR and 10% leech is and feels like shit, even mobs get a shield with damage and haste buff, like wtf.
- Remove key depletion. Give us a currency or maybe with those useless valorstones to keep rerolling dungeons.
- Remove timer from +2 - +7s.
- Add the timer as an affix starting at +8s but, Mythic gear in the Vault should start also at m+ 8.
- Checkpoints should spawn at the start of each boss defeated, is just nonsense to time a dungeon with 16 wipes no issues and then, with others the key is insta dead in the first wipe because of the runback, like wtf.
- +10s and up should be the pinnacle, put there some of the annoying affixes and give more incentives for people who wants to keep pushing but nothing that increases FOMO, portals are fine, but from +11 to ∞ there is absolutely nothing, maybe some cosmetics, banners, warband login screens, even housing items, that we are getting that.
- Remove the insta recast of abilities when mobs are CCed or stunned, like wtf is this.
- Listen to community feedback about the dungeon rotations, there are some good ones, but we get Siege of Boralass, and Borechagon again for the third time like, who asked?
- A mid-season token and vendor to target items like bullions/dinars or freeze vault slots.
- 50 gold, 12 crests (5 if you don't time the key) is absolute garbage, should scale with the difficulty. If +8s give 10 crests, +9s 12 crests or whatever and on, and on, and on, same with gold and valorstones or a currency to keep rerolling dungeons.
- Report leavers option.
- Give dps, more agency, like the second boss in mists that can only be interrupted by the tank, same with dps, they miss the interrupt they get some damage debuff.
- Remove valorstones or the cap, make them warbound. Also, when we get the weathered, carved, runed or glided achievement in our main as we go unlocking the transmutations, give us also an option to send them to alts, at least in a mid-season patch.
I started playing wow classic, I used to play TWW, I was a discipline healer who made not very high keys, 11, 10. I realized that I was in constant stress, I stopped playing because I really finished playing stressed, because of all the mechanics , and people who had to do. Also really my favorite class is a class that is not "meta" so when playing it it was impossible to get invited and grow
if you are happy doing delves and limiting ur character to champion / hero loot + hero vaults then u do not have to push keys. Doing +7 keys gives you the same rewards as the delves do. If the 10 weekly keys are too hard and ur happy with delves, then dont try to push the keys.
Once a day lockout would increase meta-only-groups exponentially
I log in 4 hours a week now. I stopped doing mythics and I don’t raid. Idk if I’m coming to an end with wow, but I catch myself doing their 20th anniversary events and I log. Delves are good to get gear but i much prefer to interact and be challenged to do mythics with others. I stopped raiding once mythics came and now I don’t do mythics at all.
Mythic+ Needs to be added to the dungeon finder tab as Solo Queue difficulty and thats just the first step second is maybe removing the keys aswell and allow players to choose in which level of difficulty they want to participate in. Just a thought !!!
Yesterday in Classic I did a SM Arm run with 2 ret paladins, a feral druid healer, a feral druid tank, and a warlock...Almost everyone was undergeared, new to WoW, and under level for the dungeon. We didn't have 1 death, we all had an amazing time, I left the run hurting from laughter and elated with dopamine. (and no one got the loot they came in for) With ZERO toxic metaslave Millhouses screaming in all caps for ret aura in the chat or kicking people at a glance of their score lvl. It was wonderful. Mythic+ should not be timed, remove the timers and let the metaslave Millhouses wipe the sweat from their heads and actually interact with other players who enjoy the actual game... not the purchased clout from pulling a slot machine lever: Retail WoW in a nutshell.
Pally tank here with 3,1k IO
I agree with alot of points u got. But having a daily lockout would be horrible, the toxicity would skyrocket if you got only one chance on the day to clear the dungeon.
But there is so much blizz can do to improve that system. but it seems like blizz is doing nothing.
Like why always so much mechanics and alot of mechanics can oneshot you even in lower keys like 8 or 9. The Healer and Tank changes at the start of the season was a horrible idea.
There are way less Tank/Healer players than DDs. the ratio is probably 25/75.
Blizz needs to make Tanking and Healing way more attractive for normal players. And with normal i dont mean ppl who can barely time +4 keys. i mean ppl who struggle a bit with 10s and 11s.
Catering to the 1% or maybe 0,1% is a real bad strategy. And they dont even have to do that since m+ is designed as an infinite scaling system. Like who the hell cares if the top 0,1% can clear a 19 or a 39?
Just make it more fun.
The biggest issue is Mythic+ being competitive to raiding when it comes to gear.
If we look at the classic model, you level up, you doing dungeons and that in turn opens up raiding. If we look at the classic modes now etc they’re hugely popular because they go back to this basic MMORPG concept.
The game should funnel players to this rather than a Mythic+ model, that as you’ve stated really just doesn’t have the rewards to match the “achievable” content.
M+ and raider IO destroyed WoW and it's community. Ive said this for years now, and I'm happy it seems like everyone is starting to get it. I want WoW to feel like an mmo again
Yes please get rid of the timer in M+!
Pretty good ideas. Hopefully Blizz delivers with healthy changes in the future.
Putting a 24-hour lock a mythic Plus is horrible for the game, not everyone can get on and run a key everyday, the vault system would have to change too because you couldn't do eight in a 7-day week, forcing people to get on every day is horrible, people that can't log daily will fall behind and we had that expansions ago with dailies people that can't get on every day fall behind in gearing.
The problem with M+ is that is harder than it has been in the past and the average player just isn't good enough to complete 7s and up in time, most players don't kick, dispell or use CC. At lower keys and than they think they should be able to complete higher content. The average player in WOW over gears content vs learn content.
Simple way to fix M+ is increase crest drops and give the same number for failing a key, this will fix the toxicity.
His point would let you do all 8 dungeons daily. Just can't spam same one over and over.
You misunderstood my idea its not one dungeon a day, it would be one of each dungeon.
I honestly dislike the idea of a lockout for m+. As someone who enjoys spamming keys at the high end and the challenge of the increasing difficulty.
I honestly just enjoy running keys, improving my performance from dungeon to dungeon. I run alot of keys, sometimes quite a bit past my 8 10s a week. Some of that is helping guildies or friends running keys.
I am also at a point where I don’t need gear, but don’t really enjoy playing alts currently. One thing that I think should be adjusted is at a certain key level you should be able to receive mythic loot. Whether it’s by a vendor system or just completing a key in time at a certain level. Just put some of the better/best drops in the raid so you can incentivize both.
There are some good points here, but removing the timer and adding a lockout doesn’t sound great to me.
@@Ragnar2707 Heroics had a lockout back in BC, nobody complained then
@@TheComebackKids so 8 m+ a week one dungeon each, no man that is a horrible idea how will we push keys? it would die immediately? the best take i heard is to make keys under lvl 12 not deplete anymore.
My husband and I agree with you. M+ is not worth it in our opinion. The benefits do not outweigh the consequences
What makes it unplayable is the fact they took away the aoe disrupts and force a kick for EVERY cast. They revert this change and take away the death timer, m+ will be great again
I would think that most Mythic+ players would happily trade infinite runs and a chance at loot with finite runs and guaranteed loot.
i really love wow, but as soon as i get to that point in endgame where it becomes the group finder simulator i INSTANTLY lose all interest in the game and just eventually not log in anymore and play something else. i mean really the time it takes for any other game to launch, get into and have fun versus all the steps you have to go through in wow to finally get into a key just to get 0 loot in the end. and then you have to repeat that process again??? who in their right mind would choose to do that. and the gameplay is not even fun in its current state. i think they can completely rework and overhaul m+ and actually make it really great and fun but ive spent all my copium and i just dont think its gonna happen man 😔
I’m struggling higher level of keystone as a Guardian Druid. I enjoy the timing aspect of keys, makes me feel accomplished when timing it but damn I’m getting wrecked by a single cast from a trash or boss without cds and I can’t cd all the time, sometime I have a a few seconds of wait before next cd comes and I get absolutely whooped
Locking out 90% of the available loot is your answer?
If you're happy to get i lvl 619, delves won't cut it. We get 2 runed crest only per delve unless we are able to grind m+ 7 to get 10 to 12 pcs of runed crest. If you want to get 626 i lvl atleast then it's more difficult because we now look at grinding m+ 8 and above and the last 2 bosses of nerubar palace to get those gilded crest. It took me 3 months to get to ilvl 625 playing casually. I'm enjoying the slow grind though
M+ should award tokens, not gear. Each dungeon gives specific tokens and u purchase whatever u want. Perfect system.
I like removing the timer idea and move to a death counter maximum like delves. don’t deplete key if failed. I want the option to spam a certain dungeon on the 2 days a week I have scheduled time to play.
Dungeons still get harder has key is advanced and they could move the curve if just doing death counters to make it harder.
Good ideas in this videos though, the top 1% won’t maintain their quarterly goals.
after quitting i can only smile when blizzard change things again
as a player whos NEVER played retail until the last month(started in tbc classic, played wrath/sod quit sod) i actually have been kinda enjoying it.. but I think its because I don't know any better? Everybody else who has played other xpacs said it was better so I kinda trust them on that, but me personally i've had a lot of fun gearing up my main to 626 which is MORE than enough for me to pump and be happy, however then it comes the issue of gearing up alts.. Im also a player who doesnt have any aspiration to push past +10 keys which i feel like the keys above 10 are where the real issues are for mythic dungeons. Since thanksgiving break the amount of keys has been dropping like flies by the day however..
One thing that kills M+ for me is depletion, and for example, I run a +10 Stone vault and get a new key after running that. Oh, would you look at that stone vault again.... keys should be on a rotation. You can't get one that you've already done.
Blizzard did say they aren't changing anything for this current second but in future seasons they have some changes coming.. we will see what they change cause it's definitely been toxic and frustrating at times. I have had some badass groups and had a good time so it's not all bad. Agree a lot of these changes need to happen tho! I've been playing other games because it just takes so damn long to even get into a group at times
yeah bro. IF u are not in meta class and try to form ur own key will take forever. Like 40 min more.
@ agreed! I play ret paladin and can put out some solid damage and utility but you're right it's not meta so it takes forever..
A lot of people claim that gear matters and use that as an excuse onto why certain gear. This is simply not true. Whether you get mythic track gear at key difficulty 10 or key difficulty 1, it does not matter. What matters is the rating on Raider IO. I see no reason to gatekeep Mythic track gear behind such tough keys. it should be level 6 for mythic upgrade crests and 8 for gear in the vault. Increasing drop rates is a nice bonus on top
I love your ideas. But I’m very very sceptical Blizzard will consider them. I think the MDI and TGP have too big of an influence. I think the competitive angle is getting too much attention and overshadows the fun, learning, real mmorpg part.
I would love it if I can just sit down do a dungeon and feel rewarded without the stress of a timer and efficiency. I think this will also help with the tank and healer problem. I’m not going to tank with the current state. If I overestimate my tankiness I brick a key, people will leave and I’ve wasted their and my time.
I like the daily lock out. It makes it possible to increase item reward levels, because it isn’t infinite loot anymore. I wouldn’t even mind a weekly lockout and the introduction of brackets. So you have a lockout on for example range 2-4, 5-7, 8-10 and 11 and higher. You can still run more dungeons, but you won’t get any gear from it. Maybe you can still get other rewards like gold, crests till cap, something else …
I've been a Mythic plus Stan since legion, only playing for M+ the time to reward is fucked. I Raided this season on my Pally and only ran M+ on my shaman and my pally got geared far quicker than my shaman by a mile. the 2/5 players getting gear and it actually being useful is abysmal. I've been stuck with heroic biss trinkets since week 2 of the season launch. something needs to change in m+ also the great vault reward stuff I already have is way to high there should 0 reason I'm having to take tokens the first 4 weeks of a season. grind out 8 tens for token each week burnt me to the point were by week 6 I only did one 10 and stopped playing outside of guild's wanting to run keys. I did my share of grinding 8's crest and it got old after getting 200 of them M+ as a hole this season is just bad. (I will quit the entirely if delves continue to be better than m+). since poe 2 has game out Wow is becoming less appealing to me now and honestly considering the ideal of just un subbing till till something is done to fix m+ there plenty of other better games with devs who want to respect our time as a player.
key points
1 fix the loot in M+
2 add in venders that let you target trinkets, rings, neck, and weapons.
3 bring back tanks agency
4 bring big pulls
5 just make M+ fun again like it has been in legion, bfa, sl, and early dragon flight.
Totally agree with you, 20 minutes are you crazy, I have waited 2 hours for a group and only gotten rejected with 2500 io.
Segregation of gear between endgame pillars is key. Pun intended.
Great ideas and 100% aggree with you ! Hopping wow game director will see this video
didnt they just release an update for mythic plus ??
the biggest reason i do NOT do mythic+ is the toxicity and the repetition that is RICH in grind. i have been calling Blizzard the casino cartel for months. they just love putting .005% chance on everything. why? to keep collectors, completionists, addicts, loyalists, and legendary in-game investors subscribed. the smart ones quit the game when their limits are reached.
i have invested hours, skinning, specializing, and baiting for a green bear tame. skin drop from keen-eyed cyan. i quit these hunts. So Blizz will remove one of their casino enterprises. yay for M+ players. i have always appreciated complaints because from time to time, you get what you want. and, yes, feedbacks are fundamentally complaints. but complaints are always good. it is why you enjoy HVAC and Cars isn't it? anyway, the casino cartel lives on in other areas for Blizz.
Wait. People do M+ for loot? All my loot comes from the vault and crafts.
I agree with everything you said other than the lockouts. Gating content through a timer is a way of making your game take longer than it should, and the need to implement such gates means your content loop is flawed. I come from osrs, which has no time gates on any content including Raid. Now the old school runescape system would not work in it's entirety in a seasonal mmo like wow but It bares thinking about. People to this day still can't clear normal palace in pugs. You can cry "skill issue" or "just watch a video" but when your only incentive to run the content is a weekly lockout the average player isn't going to learn anything other than just go in get as far as you can and just hope for a good vault slot. That is poor game design in my opinion. End game content should be hard but it's a hard that you should want to master not just get through.
Why WoW never gets nominated for Best Ongoing Game of the Year.
Daily lockouts sound awful since I only run mythic+ one day a week with my group of friends.
what was wrong with an item on every boss?
Just wanted to say well said and well done on this video. I hope to see if we can see some of that old school wow community come back to the game.
I never thought I’d hate a game system more than PVP.
I'm not sure about the Blizzard panic, most likely someone is building a yacht after AH mount incident
I played a tank in retail for a long time. Main Raid tank for Normal and Heroic and did a LOT of Mythic plus. Pushing keys fairly far. The toxicity is what killed my desire to play. People leaving because we weren't going fast enough after two or three trash pulls, or berating other players for how they do things.
Not to mention the gear treadmill of older gear thats barely better than what you have. Just to cover up that gear with the transmog system. Looking cool used to be a rewards for getting good/cool gear. Now its meaningless.
Im over on the classic anniversary servers having fun. Acting like Retail just doesn't exist.
The impact of delves on Retail wow reminds me of the impact incursions had on SoD.
Incursions were the stake through SoD's heart. And it's sounding like delves are the stake in retail.