The solution to the addon problem is very simple. Blizzard needs to make ALL important effects clearly visible. No more invisible frontals, no more swirlies, no more barely visible marks on people. Every player who took damage or died needs to understand what happened immediately. All the effects also need fitting colors. Ground effects that need to be avoided must be red, soaks must be blue, and so on.
TBH thats the biggest thing I hate about games like wow. Seriously we dont need to be hand held while we play the game, leave a little mystery. Let us engage our brains to try figure things out once in a while
@@yavvivvay It is less about any particular effect color, but CONSISTENCY. These blue swirls are good, those are bad, these other ones you have to soak, Oh, you stood in that? Insta-death. ALL THE SAME DAMN COLOR. Except when they are red. Or green. Readability is looking at the effect and knowing it is bad or good. Pulsing? It is a soak. A growing ring inside is a countdown. FF XIV doers it way way WAY better
@@ZS-bg7josame thing applies for accessibility. Also FF is rainbow vomit. It’s way to much yellow square, pink triangle, which ruins any immersion for people.
Blizzard absolutely are at the steering wheel on the whole addon situation. I feel like every time I encounter a new enemy or boss it does a poorly telegraphed attack that kills me and makes me go "what the fuck happened" when I really should think "oh wow it does this, how do I play around that". They should be more easily understood from the start but still challenging to play around. We shouldn't need addons to think for us but a lot of the time we do, because the information we need to win isn't accessible enough or there's just so many things happening there's no way for the brain to keep track of it all. I should never die in a dungeon or raid without knowing what killed me.
If they want to reduce addons why do they design their dungeons to absolutely NEED addons? Why do they give certain mobs instant cast tank buster abilities that you need to mitigate with defensives in higher keys when there is no ingame method to see those abilities coming? Look at high key tanks, they configure their nameplates so they have these abilities with a cooldown shown next to the mob, that way they can track exactly when those abilities are coming off cooldown.
@@servantis5989 Exactly they rely themselves on these same Addons and now think removing them will help. You want to remove? put the time and bring those addons as part of the core game.
Can they bloody fix the logging in and learning 10 bloody titles you already know and it removing your title if it's one of those! It's been the whole bloody expansion!
i think for addons in mythic etc it comes down to some of the fights not having clear objectives with the mechanics, brood twister should have color coordinated debuffs that were linked to the eggs, aka red circle ran to red egg etc. rather than having all the debuffs be the same color and if you didnt have the weak auras and addons that helped you it would be a clusterfuck. i dont know if its true but i was told there was a wow dev that said they make problems not solutions in regards to fight mechanics and i think that even if its not true and its unintentional mechanics that dont have clearly defined objectives like this are the reason why addons and weak auras that tell you what to do are felt to be mandatory to beat the encounters.
My fix would be instead of counting deaths, you count wipes. That way if someone dies but the group still succeeds, you're not penalized for said death. Though that might make it so combat rez classes are basically always meta, but the chances of toxicity may be faaaaar lower.
I like that idea. Dps can make mistakes but the tank and healer can set the speed and control how the dungeon goes. Too difficult? They can slow down and not get punished because the hunter didn't move.
I'd remove any penalty and the sole penalty being you can't complete the dungeon at that difficulty like raiding for exemple, but your idea would be load better indeed
Also love that Resto Shaman now have Mana Tide and Healing Tide merged, and that Earth Shield no longer loses charges - no longer need to keep refreshing the damn thing, only when its time runs out.
@@willythemailboy2 I figure their aim was more around the lines of Deadly Boss Mods DBM, but I wouldn't put it past them to try to copy Final Fantasy and ban all addons.
The add on problem is entirely blizzards fault. They keep adding mechanics that require add-ons, putting purple pools on purple floors. Start making fights that are possible without add-ons.
That's actually not correct. I've played at a high level without using addons that tell me what to do since wolk. The only reason i use weak auras is to show me what buffs i have. Players think addons are required because they don't even try to play without them. In raids especially, the addons basically do nothing if you have a pair of eyes and bothered to take 10 mins to learn the ability sequence of a boss. Tell me a boss fight that 'requires' an addon.
It's actually a circle. Blizzard is making raids etc. harder because addons make it easier, then they require more addons and the circle never ends. If addons are removed, blizzard can focus more on actual design of the UI and mechanics imo
Add a dungeon mode with only increasing difficulty for those who want to relax and get their high rewards. Dont ruin m+ for everyone who actually enjoy it
Addons are an extreme barrier to entry for newer players, and even returning players. I cannot count the amount of times I hear former players say they don’t get back into the game because they don’t want to mess with all the addons required just to play the game optimally. Retail has become so complicated due to how powerful addons are. This is why I greatly prefer classic wow. Mechanics are simple and easy to understand. This also plays into how toxic retail players have become. The game is stressful and it shows through players interactions with others. Classic is easy going and so are the players. If you’re a retail enjoyer that’s great 😃 It’s just not for me.
With evoker people want to play them but they look so bad, not many want to run around as a skinny little dragon with a loin cloth and shoulder pads as armour
@@Notorious1441 because it makes no sense to use things like breath of eons, deep breath, dream flight, dream breath, fire breath, and rescue without wings
you can do the dungeons the way they are right now as if there is no timer OR death counter. as long as you finish the dungeon, youll get vault rewards, loot and crests. just put in your lfg description "going for completion, not time" - people do this all the time. so, what exactly does removing the timer solve? and when you say "higher keys" what number are you talking about? because past a 10 there is absolutely no reward except IO. seems like most people want the timer removed so they can get max level gear....if thats the case then why dont we create a tier of gear and call it "welfare gear" or "participation gear" ? or you could just do M0s, heroics or normal. its all untimed. or, as i said prior, just do M+ as if there is no timer and just shoot for completion.
@@jgro9 As a healer, I want the timer removed so people stop pulling when nobody is ready. People get in a hurry, then snowball mistakes. The whole vibe sucks.
@@smashj85 Stop playing low keys and problem solved. Players suck in low keys and removing the timer won't change anything. The players will still suck.
Remove timer altogether and don't replace it with anything. Have someone loose rating if they leave before 25mins unless there is a group vote to 'disband'. This should go a long way to remove toxicity from M+. If you're worried about waiting on heroism on every pull then have a hard limit of 1.5 hrs per dungeon.
with that being said, you can literally play the game as if there is no timer in its current state. if you complete the dungeon over time, youll still get loot, crests and vault selections. you can go as slow as you want. just look for people who are also interested in spending an hour to do trivial content. put that in your group description...problem solved.
Toxicity would be on par if your death would matter more in this no timer universe. If players cant use a kick cc or not standing in shit in a timed dungeon, then the exact same thing will happen here too.
God no for removing timer in M+, just remove depletion which they did , they need it to make it baseline instead of gatekeeping behind account wide achiv problem solved
Addons used to make you above the bar with players not using addons being the bar, now using addons is the bar and you're below it if you don't, and that's the problem.
@@h347hit is an issue because the game design is not focused around the game itself communicating effectively. Every fight should be easily digestible and able to be understood with the base Blizzard UI. Nobody should feel as if they should need to use add-ons to perform better. The game itself should communicate ways in which you can succeed or fail in a manner that a viewer can easily recognize what is happening. If this is not true, it is a failure on the designer's end.
It's the same thing with fully optimized rotations and talent builds. Nowadays everyone just looks up guides on how to play their class and copies their talent builds from websites.
@@H41030v3rki110ny0u It literally has multiple tiers, with literal mechanics explained. Each tier up slightly ramps up the difficulty. LFR and Normal raids are comically easy. The only people who never progress are the people who lack initiative. Which mirrors real life.
if thats what youre going for then why remove the timer at all? why not just play the game the way it is right now? the timer really doesnt matter...if you complete the dungeon in 1 hour or 2 or 3 or 4 or 8 youll still get vault rewards, youll still get crests and youll get loot at the end of the dungeon. so whats the point of removing the timer? if youre going to remove the timer then you might as well remove the key scaling system as well since the timer is at least 50% of the challenge in high keys. and if youre going to remove the scaling system, then we can just go back to good ol mythic 0s...so why dont you just do m0s? oh because you want better "rewards" THEN EARN IT lol.
The existence of a timer, in any form, is what makes the current experience toxic. Someone who wants those cosmetics/position on the leaderboard will be just as toxic to the other members of the party.
Even if they took away the timer, groups are going to zoom from the front to the back asap as usual. There's no timer in heroics and people sprint the whole way, even when they really can't weather the damage.
Dear Blizzard. When the community says "Remove the Timer", they don't mean: "Remove the Timer and give us another BS-mechanic that disadvantages certain roles and classes and adds needless stress into the game." - They mean "Remove the f*ing timer".... If a death-counter is the alternative, for the love of god, please please please just keep the timer.... Also. A tiny fraction of people complain about the timer, a lot of people complain about key depletion. And those people are by the way mostly the ones who run "normal" Keylevel PUGs (2-10) and people who are pushing high keys. The "Your Key won't drop under 12 if you reach 2850 rating" feature is pretty much the most misguided "fix" you could have done. Thanks a lot. This being said. Making a Dungeon run over time way less punshing than it was may have already been enough of a fix alltogether. Moving from "You've just wasted 45 Minutes" to "You slightly reduced your loot" was already a big step - if now the Key wouldn't deplete, that'd be even better!
Blizz needs to do: - Remove timer - Remove key break - Punish leavers by reducing their rank score and lockout-timers on queueing m+ if they failed to return back in time. Like ANY other game that has Ranked mode. The more they leave the more they get punished, more rank lost more lockout time.
@@Vash.Baldeus you can do the dungeons the way they are right now as if there is no timer OR death counter. as long as you finish the dungeon, youll get vault rewards, loot and crests. just put in your lfg description "going for completion, not time" - people do this all the time. so, what exactly does removing the timer solve?
@@Vash.Baldeus why not just have a timed m+ and a death counter m+ that are both options when ur gonna do a dungeon, no point in removing something when u can just add a choice that allows ppl to continue to do the timer if they like that or change to death counter if they like that
Why do you need either deaths or timer? I don't understand. Just let people do the dungeons at their own pace, in the way they enjoy. What't the problem with that?
I think it makes the encounter far too casual.. I enjoy the rush nature of it, I can do multiple dungeons with my time, the a group needing to stop at every pack of mobs
@@alexisonbike3652 Which is exactly why there must be a timer. Without the timer everything will be boring and easy. Then their only source of difficulty is more dumb oneshot mechanics and then people get addons that solve it. The timer is central to both issues.
@@alexisonbike3652 They should just add a dungeon mode with increased difficulty then, like delves. Dont punish the players who like m+, yes it has it flaws but removing everything that makes m+ unique is the wrong direction imo
I "only" do keys at 10, did them at 20 earlier when it was recent - never thought the timer was a problem. Toxic players will always be there. The death counter ist plain stupid! I did delves with abolutely dumb players, we wiped so much ... imagine this in m+. No thanks. The deaths will lower m+ participation for sure.
THANK YOU! most players dont realize this. its just like bad cops...sadly there is nothing you can do to remove all of them and you most certainly dont want to punish the good ones. there will always been toxic players and from my experience, 99.9999% of them are in the lower keys.
Maybe we wouldn't need weakauras if Blizzard didn't make every boss a f*cking enigma puzzle with invisible pieces on a 5 seconds to wipe deathtimer that require players to make a hugely coordinated ballet dance while we are already busy dealing with the boss and probably his adds? Maybe... Just maybe.... JUST MAKE A COHESIVE F*CKING BOSS FIGHT INSTEAD????
PvP also has solo queue in which you can reach the highest rating. I would love a M+ solo queue system so I don't have to spend 30+ minutes trying to put a group together every time I want to play the game.
Maybe if players didn't need a 30 page user manual / raid boss, addons were not so important either. Other mmos can have engaging/fun/hard raids too without unnecessarily convoluted bossfights. ^^;;;
Removing the mythic plus timer would leave me completely uninterested in this game. At that point the debate would be over in my head. Timed dungeons are literally the only reason I play wow.
In Wrath they had issues with it. They had to disable addons that wrote over the game world to tell you and your group where to stand during a certain boss fight. I can't remember which one it was off the top of my head, but I think it was in ICC
@@la7era1u54 oh you mean the same stuff "the best guild" used to delete the need to think for archimondes "Wrought Chaos" ? or the among us from the lords of dread? or which bomb to put into which hole in the Jailor fight? yeah seems like blizz doesnt give a shit anymore about that one.
As someone who exclusively plays M+, I approach this discussion from the perspective of a dedicated player. I do not raid beyond Heroic, nor do I engage in PvP. M+ has been my focus since BFA and remains my largest time investment in the game. I firmly believe that the removal of the timer lacks careful consideration. If the timer were replaced with deaths as the sole metric of success (like delves) it would fundamentally undermine the mode for those who enjoy M+ at its core. Such a change would not cater to existing or recently past M+ players but instead to a different audience, one that already has content tailored to them, such as delves. The essence of Mythic+ lies in its sense of urgency. As key levels increase, the stakes rise, the timer becomes more significant, and players feel compelled to improve their skills. This tension and drive are integral to the mode's appeal. Replacing the timer with a death counter would render time irrelevant. Groups could proceed at an excessively slow pace, pulling minimal packs to minimize risk. While bosses remain challenging, the overall experience would become tedious, far less skill-intensive, and ultimately unengaging. This shift would dilute the sense of accomplishment and reduce Mythic+ to little more than a glorified participation trophy, as anyone and everyone could do it. Such a system would strip the mode of its value and prestige. Achieving high-level delves, for example, is not widely regarded as an indicator of skill or dedication but rather as a reflection of time spent. This lack of meaningful progression is why delves have largely failed to capture player interest. For high-key pushers, the rewards in Mythic+ come from beating personal bests or striving for a 0.1%. These achievements are fulfilling because they are difficult and require mastery of the mechanics, including the timer and being efficient. The timer is the foundation of what makes Mythic+ unique and rewarding. Removing it would alienate those who enjoyed the mode since Legion, BFA, Shadowlands, and Dragonflight. That said, Mythic+ does have room for improvement. Key depletions, rewards, mounts, transmogs, tuning, affixes, and class balance all need updates. However, the timer is not among the issues that need fixing. If there is significant demand for an alternative format without a timer, it should exist as a separate mode rather than replacing the current format. This way, both player groups can enjoy the game in their preferred way. Removing the timer would erode the foundation of Mythic+ and cater to a participation trophy mindset, diluting the game’s quality. Instead, we should focus on addressing actual problems while preserving the core aspects that make Mythic+, mythic+.
Yes, Yes, and Yes. This is absolutely it. I don't know a single person that likes M+ complaining about the timer, it's all these casual andy's that want it gone.
I just don’t understand why some people are so insistent on timers. So what there would be turtle groups? You could still easily put together a “speed” group but actually be justified in requiring absurdly high item levels for the difficulty.
Removing the M+ timer would probably mean less specs getting rejected because they aren't the current meta, even though it would probably take the community a while to adapt. Shouldn't be a death counter though, should be a fail encounter... counter; any situation where the mobs reset.
Timer is the biggest barrier to entry for M+. Look at season one for an average newcommer. Level up to cap, do some open world, some delves and jump into an M+ that gives item upgrades, because that sounds like the reasonable level. Same step up in reward level as before. That means starting doing M+ at around +7 level keys with half of the dungeon pool being dungeons you've never seen. Way to much happening for the newcommer and no time to learn or analyse what happened because we are on a timer. Assuming they get in. And veterans don't have time to guide or help because they too are on the timer. And Thrall help you if your newbie was tanking. Dungeons used to have varied types of encounters. Plain old mob packs, rooms full of traps (explosives, slows, stealthed mobs) requiring careful and planned movement, gauntlets that you rushed as far as you dared each pull, stand your ground scenarios and more. But in M+, due to the timer, the entire dungeon is one long gauntlet. And if the dungeon could not support that it would be reworked to do so or never be brought up to M+. Simple things like elevators not controlled by players are a problem for M+ due to the timer. But without it they don't have to be as pass/fail.
I legit stopped raiding mythic because, I had to download so many addons to the point it just sometimes felt like why am I even here? It does sometimes feel like a bot could just play my character tbh. The fun off raiding is just not there anymore. Even m+ and pvp if anything pvp is almost impossible to play with out addons or at least they make it so much more easy.
And the UI gets absolutely insane. As a healer, I need like 8 different things to keep track of everyone's health and the fight progress, as well as proc notifications that constantly pop up. I feel like the F-35 lightnings UI is probabaly less congested than WoWs ui.
im sure youre situation is different but i got ce last week and i use weakauras for 1-5 tops mandatory ones for the whole raid. Boss mods. and method raid tools. i cant see any others being mandatory. Feeling forced to use other addons is seemingly a forced debuff that you might wanna look into lol
wtf are you making this shit up?its been the same addons for over 10 years now...a boss mod like dbm or bigwigs, weakauras,MAYBE a raidtool where the leader can put a list of stuff you can read,idk why this doesnt already exist in game,is it not better to have a list that shows you who is doing what? and then maybe loot council addon,that again..is just convenience
If they took out the timer, it would make me want to do m+ And yeah the whole "oh every pull is gonna wait for bloodlust" is such a crutch. The addons problem is a design problem. Our raid group is often 20-25 people and sometimes, the extra mechanics caused by these extra people is a pain
I think that if blizzard wants me to stop using my addons they need to make mechanics clear and visible. I play FF and WoW pretty regularly and all of the mechanics in FF are telegraphed in a way I can blind prog Allaince Raids, dungeons and trials. They use consistent visual language that tells me to stay out the piss puddle. The boss will pose for more than a second or two before hitting a big AOE. Tank busters are always red and have that ⭕️ around the tank so healers know to give them a shield and tanks know to hit the mitigation. Another thing is that WoW plays very fast so if you don’t have the mechanics memorized you’re going to die.
Get rid of Keystones! Once we complete a lower-level key, let us queue for the next higher one, like Delves. I love instant ques as tank, but then when I play my hunter I have to wait 20 minutes sometimes to get into a key, and by that time I really don't want to even play anymore.
Why not just get rid of any timer and just make a group wide debuff that gets worse with each death. This gives you time plan but you still get punished if some one dies.
Or have the loot pool get smaller as time progresses. Beat the boss within this time, get 6-8 drops. Take too long, it drops to 2-4. That way it allows slower groups to have a chance to get loot, just not as much as the more coordinated ones.
you can already play the game as if there is no timer. you complete the dungeon in 2 hours and youll still get loot, vault rewards and crests. so, removing the timer really doesnt seem like it would change a whole lot nor does it seem helpful. when you post your key in lfg, just put in the group description "playing the game without a timer. taking time to complete the key" that way i can still the play the game the way ive been playing it for the last 5 years and you can play the game the way you want to play the game. or you can just go do mythic 0, heroics or normal. those are also not timed.
While at it, remove timer, change it with death counter as said in the video. Remove the key breaking completely, and punish leavers who do not return back within a certain amount of time by reducing their ranking and time-lockout on their ability to queue for M+ like any other ranked game does.
God no for removing timer in M+, just remove depletion which they did , they need it to make it baseline instead of gatekeeping behind account wide achiv problem solved
When did blizzard ever change a core mechanic of the game in such a way? raids got more easy modes with worse loot, arena got solo shuffle with worse loot (no glad mount/title) so i dont see M+ being changed that much. What i could think about is something like "LFM+" with random matchmaking like the LFR which replaces delves after TWW, offers a similar reward structure as delves with champion gear / hero vault gear and a deathlimit instead of a timer and uses the same dungeons/affixes regular M+ does so people get a better entrypoint
Honestly, I feel if your going to remove the timer you might as well remove M+, whats the point? Better to make keys not deplete and work on better affixes and see if you can do something about queing for M+ in my opinion.
I agree. Remove key depletion. Make the affixes fun or remove them and add a que-system at least for lower keys. A middle way would be adding the timer only at +8 or 10, so people can grind out most of their gear without it, but it remains for people who play for rating.
@Kunanas7 If you take that as elitism, I feel sorry for you. People that don't like PvP don't do arenas. People who don't enjoy pet battles don't touch pet battles. People who don't care about mounts don't farm old raids for them. IF there is content at the end of the game that you don't like, DONT do it. There is nothing wrong with the timer. If you cant handle it, don't do it. Or form groups that don't care about the timer. You still have the vault rewards. You still get crests. You still get gear. Stop trying to make every aspect of the game casual and accessible to everyone. Competition is healthy and desired. And perfectly fine. FOMO is destroying the integrity of games that are fine the way they are.
Since you brought the ovenex boss fight example up. Different worm adds requiring different kicks is *exactly* the non intuitive, chorelike type of boss mechanic they would have to get rid of, or redesign if they truly wish to be done with combat addons and/or weakauras. Yes, even in mythic and i am willing to die on that hill.
on one hand, removing the time would make it more chill because you are not forced to speed through the dungeons. on the other hand, i know the community, random groupes would speed through the dungeon anyway and the flaming starts as soons as someone dies (even if they are not at fault)
I think Blizzard could do something about the death counters, for example make them a personal counter and it only affects your loot instead of the group's loot if you die. That also has it's own setbacks because if someone dies too much, maybe they would just leave the group but I think this version could go better.
The ability to show everything in a way you want is AWESOME. I have text messages/bars for most mechanics - because that's the way to parse information for me. I'm sure blizz wants me to look at all those splashing colors and waving boss models instead which are just a huge visual mess. The only place where it was somewheat possible was FFXIV and only in the fights they didn't decide to not do their arrow marks for some weird reason. I LIKE to play UI. I'm interested in decisions, not reactions. What's fun is deciding how to recover from a mistake, coordinating where to run, etc - not parsing visual information or waiting patiently in the interrupt queue (that is just extra annoying when its done in split groups/multiple mobs, as several people talking at once on VC = noone hears anything). If you want me to not have addons - then do SUPER FLASHY red zones, arrows etc. Game of "which swirl is it" is worse than clicking buttons off weakauras.
2nd- I am a 622 Disc priest I choose not to do m+ because I resent the other players feeling like its the healers job to carry them through mechanics. Especially when they are like 50 ilvls too low to even be in the group. I started doing M+ during dragonflight but as soon as they changed the scaling and made m+ harder I quit. Again, mainly because of undergeard toons joining a m+
Literally just removing the depletion mechanic would solve a significant amount of the pain, and toxicity, in M+. I don't get some folk who are adamant about depletion being good because not timing is somehow a marker of skill (ignoring that most people pug, and stuff can go down outside of your control); let people run the same dungeon on X key lvl until they time it as much as they want. It may actually allow people to practice and learn
I think the only way to go is to make things more visible (effects, boss abilities etc) the remove boss addons. The difficulty should be coordination and execution. That will break the arms race but it will need a lot of changes to both the wow engine but also encounter design. I think it will go that way but think they will do it gradually and start design it into newer encounters.
I have to add here at the top, I think the evoker thing is down to the dracthyr, not the class or specs. A race like that is only ever going to be niche, and a loooot of people care about their character. I hope they do remove the timer from rewards, maybe keep it as a for fun mode for speedsters. I just don't like the feel of it. Here's what I think on addons: If you disable some functionality, you can design an experience that is still challenging, simply because now the difficulty is more organic rather than balanced against that addon feature. Just make sure to incorporate actually useful features to the game.
What if they gave everyone who entered M+ an instant reincarnate? Deaths still count towards completing the key, but one death does not full affect whole group, when it is tank or healer.
Blizzard is going to need to redesign their fights if they're going to crack down on add ons. As someone who doesn't use add ons at all, I can tell you straight up that VERY FEW boss mechanics are "telegraphed". If you don't have add ons, you literally don't know what to do unless you read a guide. There are no indicators to what's going to happen. Occasionally you'll get warnings that SOMETHING is going to happen, but not what. Basically, Blizzard have been relying on add ons to do the heavy lifting for their boss fights.
Depletion is infinitely worse than any problem you have with M+. Anyone want to steelman depletion to me? Cause I literally do not understand it as a concept for M+. In fact I'd argue it's contrary to the fundamental idea that is...M+.
i wanted them to change dungeons in beta when they did the m+ rework, if they went to death charges...they could also have a way to gain lives if you do cool and interesting mechanical things or puzzles
Removing the timer is easily the worst decision they have been considering for a while ... MDI is basically dead with that.. kills the entire feel and idea of M+ They should change the name if they do that. Do we even need to count deaths at this point ? I mean we dont wanna single anyone out right should be casual friendly .. maybe we just have it scale on damage and hp? Most of the community (loud minority) doesnt care for affixes anyways right ? So really after we've implemented those changes maybe we guarantee the loot after 50% clear, why force people to clear the entire dungeon right ? I mean if they have spent all their cooldowns and are stuck on the 3rd boss they've already spent a lot of time in there right ? they should be rewarded for that surely.. Fucking participation trophy generation holy shit..
right. its not M+ without timers. the only people that dont realize this are the ones hard stuck sub +8s and they want their participation gear. its really unbecoming.
"Participation trophy generation" more like generation of young adults that have jobs and families and not sweaty manchildren in a basement that have all day to play a video game. lolcow statement
Just make stuff visible, explain it in simple terms in the journal, and ban weak aura's entirely. You can also make the raid as complicated as you want if we can just respawn at the encounter.
If Blizzard started adding features provided by certain addons it would mean they have to commit to keeping such things maintained. Which is precisely why I don't see them doing anything of the sort, because it adds more work (and cost) for them that people are already doing for the community for free.
Removing the toxic timer would be a fantastic change. Adding the delve death counter would result in M+ participation booming! The toxic timer has a hive mind mentality of fast is always better. That indoctrinated likemindedness has bled into many other aspects of the game such as LFR and Normal raids as well as heroic dungeons. This hive mind mentality of the "go fast" hardcore crowd works within the M+ top players who play and know the routes are on comms together or play together regulary. For the other 90%+ of the casual subscription playerbase this is ineffective to say the least. Tanks overpulling is the biggest factor and it's not the tanks fault entirely. They have been conditioned to play out of control because the toxic timer has infected so many players with a mindset that we need to "go fast". In a pug group this ends up having the opposite result and the dungeons or raids end up taking longer because the overpulling tank wipes the group or kills off players and overall taking more time to finish the dungeon or raid. Adding the delve death counter to replace the toxic timer will be a huge boon to the M+ game.
the "toxic timer" "hive mind" LOL, are you a bot? you can do the dungeons the way they are right now as if there is no timer OR death counter. as long as you finish the dungeon, youll get vault rewards, loot and crests. just put in your lfg description "going for completion, not time" - people do this all the time. so, what exactly does removing the timer solve? you sound like a player that is hard stuck sub 8. you actually have no idea what youre talking about. a death timer would most certainly increase toxicity because now there is only one way to fail, you just lack the ability to think that far ahead. you just want your Max IL "participation gear"
@@shamba4406 I like M+ and this would be a fantastic change. Participation is continuing to drop and the toxic timer has been and continues to be a hot button issue. It's time for a change.
Finally a useful comment that tackles the real issue of WoW! Obviously nobody wants to play some weird dragon-thing, in a world that misses the Blademaster for over 20 years now!
@bellular you should do a video on how PVP players are reliably banning each other by being toxic and reporting opposing teams, or reporting healers in shuffle for being "bad" many people end up banned at the end of as season when the bulk ban goes out. It's a strange time, people lose decade old accounts every season because they are "bad" Lol. Blizzard has no customer service so the review/fix process is basically non existent.
hate to break it to ya, but Bell and co. arent really pvpers themselves and if we're being objective, PvP in WoW is all but dead and has been for years. There just arent enough people left to care. Let alone make a successful video about it.
Blizzard doesnt care about pvp, its pretty obvious by the neglect for the last 10 years. Just play a real pvp game instead of playing a dead cash grab?
Wait is that really happening right now? i skipped both shadowlands and dragonflight but came back for war within and been having a fun time healing shuffle but get a toxic player calling me bad every once in a blue moon now i'm little worried they might be secretly reporting me
Remove timer, replace with death limit. If you clear the dungeon, still get full loot. If you hit the death limit, no key upgrade. No penalty! And buff loot drops. Every person should get one piece of gear per M+ run.
God no for removing timer in M+, just remove depletion which they did , they need it to make it baseline instead of gatekeeping behind account wide achiv problem solved
God no for removing timer in M+, just remove depletion which they did , they need it to make it baseline instead of gatekeeping behind account wide achiv problem solved
Regarding the Addon Arms Race, if the game had one third of what the addons allow us to do inside and outside of Raids, the amount of QoL addons that exist we would not rely on addons so heavily to play this game. But alas the game became more complex in comparison to WoW Classic, the pace changed, the mechanics on bosses changed and a human brain can not process the sheer amount of things that happen during a boss fight.
ff14 savage content would like to have a word with you. they have timelines posted to the second as to when x y z move is done and it simply requires player input to learn and adjust properly to do the content WoW is one of the few MMOs that heavily relies on addons to support its content. anyone that gripes against the removal hasn't seen the other side and are genuinely missing out on fun content.
@@wundyboygaming I do not want Addons removed, but if WoW wants to remove them? They will have to add those same mechanics into the game base itself, a rather enormous undertaking, staff, time and money they will have to put up to accomplish. Feels like Blizzard have not learned from the fiasco where they attempted to FORCE their players to play Overwatch way Blizzard wanted, it does not work that way, so they think that Addons are a bad thing so they want to remove it instead of remove it by offering an alternative solution.
God I hope they don't kill the GSE addon. As a 60-year-old with carpel tunnel, I can't play the game without it. It would be goodbye to WoW for me ... which would be heartbreaking, as I've been there since opening day on Vanilla.
As for mechanics and interface solutions, the goal of this should be to integrade missing things into the game, so people don't feel the need for addons. I heavily rely und weakaura timers for buffs and debuffs as well as additional visual ques for certain abilities. These are things which are simply missing from the base game and should be there.
why not just add a pause button for m+ runs where you can pause for a moment to open the door, check in with your dog or have a quick pee? competive Games like SC2 or WC3 have this. I think real-life obligationen during the run shouldnt be an argument for death-limit vs timer
Blizzard needs to take a lesson from FF14. You don't need addons in that game because of how clear the marking system for effects are; circles with arrows pointing inwards for group soaks; circles with arrows pointing outwards for avoids, etc. Strong contrasts vice green swirlies on grass, or purple swirlies with poorly defined edges on purple stone.
Once your group reaches the highest key they've ever done I guarantee they will wait for cooldowns for every difficult obstacle. The idea is simply not going to work. It's going to cause problems that will be immediately evident.
Tbh people only feel any pressure on mythic plus due deplete mechanic, I can guarantee that once depleting is gone alot of toxicity will be gone, since most of it is due being punished by other people's mistakes. w/o depletion is just a small time wasted.
Why do we not have a Score system for M+ that takes deaths and time into consideration, then they could do drops/io based on score. High score could = more than 2 drops per run and low score could still be a completion just only reward valor/io.
If blizz is talking about removing the timer it tells me that devs are incompetent and need to be fired..... absolute stupidity. I would never play wow again if they did that.
Shit take and would kill the game. There's plenty of communities that use addons in some form that do not and have not ever harmed the game. Stop parroting this opinion because your favorite twitch streamer or youtuber said it.
The best possible thing Blizzard could do for the game is ban all addons. Ya it might suck, but it's by far the one thing that would do the most to save the game.
bruh if people think M+ is toxic now, a death counter will make it infinitely worse. just imagine, in between pulls people literally stopping to flame each other *because you can*, or the whole thing gets bricked because that one guy stood in a puddle on the last boss. if there is only one way to fail, then there is really only one way to flame and if you give degens the time to flame in between pulls, you better believe they WILL do it.
tbh not a fan of the death count but honestly it is substantially better (potentially, depending on amount of deaths) than the timer M+ have now As far as addons go, Blizz just needs to stop caring about the fact there are addons and design as if there weren't any addons, if people want to ruin their own fun by downloading addons, let them, if people want to the authentic experience Blizzard intends to ship, they wont download addons that help with fights. At the end of the day, they design bosses that are meant to be beat, if you are so mental you can't do a boss mechanic without addons, use it.
i feeel like if they taught us what each animation actuially meant you were supposed to do, then we wouldnt need addons to tell us to move - how are you supposed to knoiw if you soak or dodge etc - there needs to be like a mechanic training dungeon or something
I was surprised that the hotfix that added all the citrines for the ring wasn't mentioned (though personally I seemed to hit a wall where none of the dig events would drop the last 4-5, even though I heard that every event would drop one).
@@BCxRedemption But only if you've already found them via the events I think. The vendors are meant for alts to purchase the same gems that you already found.
I thought M+ might be cool if they rolled in affixes, then death counters, then timers when it gets to prestige. That being said, I don't want people to feel either cheated of challenge or too scared to try.
I've been wanting a no timer dungeon end-game for a long time. If people want to keep the timer so badly, blizz can leave it in as a separate mode and the small pool of miserable m+ sweats can just go run that in their corner all day I guess.
Death limits is FAR better than timers. Period. I mean think more time people are playing their game the better. Also a world without addon's requires more communication to the player about mechanics. Boss's having visual wind ups and swirlies having clear borders, etc. also having a more robust UI would be fantastic. I would love to see a menu tab next to macros where I could whitelist and black list cooldowns, customize where my cooldowns are displayed and how they are displayed. As well as having the option to disable certain UI elements like the menu and bag bar that I have bound and never actually click. We are SO close to a WoW without addon's. Just one or two more good updates to the UI system in game and we are golden. I'm all for WoW being new player friendly again.
The solution to the addon problem is very simple. Blizzard needs to make ALL important effects clearly visible. No more invisible frontals, no more swirlies, no more barely visible marks on people. Every player who took damage or died needs to understand what happened immediately. All the effects also need fitting colors. Ground effects that need to be avoided must be red, soaks must be blue, and so on.
What's readable for one person isn't for another. Its a huge advantage of wow that you can display whatever you want however you want.
TBH thats the biggest thing I hate about games like wow. Seriously we dont need to be hand held while we play the game, leave a little mystery. Let us engage our brains to try figure things out once in a while
@@yavvivvay It is less about any particular effect color, but CONSISTENCY. These blue swirls are good, those are bad, these other ones you have to soak, Oh, you stood in that? Insta-death. ALL THE SAME DAMN COLOR. Except when they are red. Or green. Readability is looking at the effect and knowing it is bad or good. Pulsing? It is a soak. A growing ring inside is a countdown. FF XIV doers it way way WAY better
@@ZS-bg7josame thing applies for accessibility. Also FF is rainbow vomit. It’s way to much yellow square, pink triangle, which ruins any immersion for people.
Colourblind people, R.I.P. 😅
Blizzard absolutely are at the steering wheel on the whole addon situation. I feel like every time I encounter a new enemy or boss it does a poorly telegraphed attack that kills me and makes me go "what the fuck happened" when I really should think "oh wow it does this, how do I play around that".
They should be more easily understood from the start but still challenging to play around. We shouldn't need addons to think for us but a lot of the time we do, because the information we need to win isn't accessible enough or there's just so many things happening there's no way for the brain to keep track of it all.
I should never die in a dungeon or raid without knowing what killed me.
If they want to reduce addons why do they design their dungeons to absolutely NEED addons? Why do they give certain mobs instant cast tank buster abilities that you need to mitigate with defensives in higher keys when there is no ingame method to see those abilities coming?
Look at high key tanks, they configure their nameplates so they have these abilities with a cooldown shown next to the mob, that way they can track exactly when those abilities are coming off cooldown.
Those same addons add the things the game lacks to alert the user.
Amen my guy.....well said
It's because Blizzard is designing encounters with add-ons in mind.
It’s funny the more “high skill” and the more “try hards “ a play is , the more kindergarten level of hand holding add ons they have …..
@@servantis5989 Exactly they rely themselves on these same Addons and now think removing them will help. You want to remove? put the time and bring those addons as part of the core game.
Can they bloody fix the logging in and learning 10 bloody titles you already know and it removing your title if it's one of those! It's been the whole bloody expansion!
Yes please
Its also completely inconsequential and a minir annoyance at best. As long as you dobt know how much actual work that would be just quit whining
@@Komischer0815nick Schizo take
@@Komischer0815nick Jebus, the names of these bots lately are just something else. :/
@@darkblad3359 Bot follow-up take.
i think for addons in mythic etc it comes down to some of the fights not having clear objectives with the mechanics, brood twister should have color coordinated debuffs that were linked to the eggs, aka red circle ran to red egg etc. rather than having all the debuffs be the same color and if you didnt have the weak auras and addons that helped you it would be a clusterfuck. i dont know if its true but i was told there was a wow dev that said they make problems not solutions in regards to fight mechanics and i think that even if its not true and its unintentional mechanics that dont have clearly defined objectives like this are the reason why addons and weak auras that tell you what to do are felt to be mandatory to beat the encounters.
I love the insane notion that people would wait for lust on every pull. Literally no one is willing to wait for that. We have shit to do.
Yes! Whenever I read some one else trying to make that claim I always think, "You can't be serious....."
Yeah maybe in your +7 keys people wont but in actually difficulty 12 and up? for sure
@@courtesan8784Then let them. Who cares.
My fix would be instead of counting deaths, you count wipes. That way if someone dies but the group still succeeds, you're not penalized for said death. Though that might make it so combat rez classes are basically always meta, but the chances of toxicity may be faaaaar lower.
I like that idea. Dps can make mistakes but the tank and healer can set the speed and control how the dungeon goes. Too difficult? They can slow down and not get punished because the hunter didn't move.
damn then you would prob get hunters/druids/rogues as meta and everyone would need to roll nelf for shadowmeld.
Okay... sure , but then you have to disable release spirit "in combat" or am i wrong ?
If BR is going to be the meta, counter that by giving everyone a BR. Boom, problem solved.
I'd remove any penalty and the sole penalty being you can't complete the dungeon at that difficulty like raiding for exemple, but your idea would be load better indeed
Also love that Resto Shaman now have Mana Tide and Healing Tide merged, and that Earth Shield no longer loses charges - no longer need to keep refreshing the damn thing, only when its time runs out.
Most of the addons I use are to make my UI look the way I want it, as long as they don't touch those, I'm good.
When they say "addons" they generally mean weakauras specifically.
@@willythemailboy2 can’t imagine playing WoW with no Luxthos weakauras anymore lol the mechanics one they can and I couldn’t care less
@@willythemailboy2 I figure their aim was more around the lines of Deadly Boss Mods DBM, but I wouldn't put it past them to try to copy Final Fantasy and ban all addons.
I look at that screen and see madness if blizzard makes these changes they should make sure the fights are more clear on the directives
The add on problem is entirely blizzards fault. They keep adding mechanics that require add-ons, putting purple pools on purple floors. Start making fights that are possible without add-ons.
That's actually not correct. I've played at a high level without using addons that tell me what to do since wolk. The only reason i use weak auras is to show me what buffs i have. Players think addons are required because they don't even try to play without them. In raids especially, the addons basically do nothing if you have a pair of eyes and bothered to take 10 mins to learn the ability sequence of a boss.
Tell me a boss fight that 'requires' an addon.
It's actually a circle. Blizzard is making raids etc. harder because addons make it easier, then they require more addons and the circle never ends. If addons are removed, blizzard can focus more on actual design of the UI and mechanics imo
Add a dungeon mode with only increasing difficulty for those who want to relax and get their high rewards. Dont ruin m+ for everyone who actually enjoy it
Exactly. They need top catering to these cry babies that can't handle a challenge. The game is extremely easy.
Pretty sure this would be delves with higher scaling and reward. It's right there and easy to implement. Not sure why they haven't.
Addons are an extreme barrier to entry for newer players, and even returning players. I cannot count the amount of times I hear former players say they don’t get back into the game because they don’t want to mess with all the addons required just to play the game optimally.
Retail has become so complicated due to how powerful addons are. This is why I greatly prefer classic wow. Mechanics are simple and easy to understand. This also plays into how toxic retail players have become. The game is stressful and it shows through players interactions with others. Classic is easy going and so are the players.
If you’re a retail enjoyer that’s great 😃 It’s just not for me.
With evoker people want to play them but they look so bad, not many want to run around as a skinny little dragon with a loin cloth and shoulder pads as armour
Yea they look so gay.
I don't know why they don't just let Evokers stay in their visage form permanently like other Dracthyr classes can.
@@Notorious1441 because it makes no sense to use things like breath of eons, deep breath, dream flight, dream breath, fire breath, and rescue without wings
They need to make their tier sets always visible. That would already add more people
@liamdavies2823 oh yeah for sure but surely they can make so your full armour is displayed on you when in dragon form
I don't care what they replace timers with, but I can say for sure, I'd attempt higher keys if there was no timer.
you can do the dungeons the way they are right now as if there is no timer OR death counter.
as long as you finish the dungeon, youll get vault rewards, loot and crests. just put in your lfg description "going for completion, not time" - people do this all the time.
so, what exactly does removing the timer solve?
and when you say "higher keys" what number are you talking about? because past a 10 there is absolutely no reward except IO.
seems like most people want the timer removed so they can get max level gear....if thats the case then why dont we create a tier of gear and call it "welfare gear" or "participation gear" ?
or you could just do M0s, heroics or normal. its all untimed. or, as i said prior, just do M+ as if there is no timer and just shoot for completion.
@@jgro9cope. Remove it.
@@jgro9 As a healer, I want the timer removed so people stop pulling when nobody is ready. People get in a hurry, then snowball mistakes. The whole vibe sucks.
@@smashj85 Stop playing low keys and problem solved. Players suck in low keys and removing the timer won't change anything. The players will still suck.
@@Xerus35 Guess what no Timer and groups wont instantly disband because someone made a mistake... the timer is the worst and most punishing thing ever
Remove timer altogether and don't replace it with anything. Have someone loose rating if they leave before 25mins unless there is a group vote to 'disband'. This should go a long way to remove toxicity from M+.
If you're worried about waiting on heroism on every pull then have a hard limit of 1.5 hrs per dungeon.
with that being said, you can literally play the game as if there is no timer in its current state.
if you complete the dungeon over time, youll still get loot, crests and vault selections. you can go as slow as you want. just look for people who are also interested in spending an hour to do trivial content. put that in your group description...problem solved.
Toxicity would be on par if your death would matter more in this no timer universe. If players cant use a kick cc or not standing in shit in a timed dungeon, then the exact same thing will happen here too.
God no for removing timer in M+, just remove depletion which they did , they need it to make it baseline instead of gatekeeping behind account wide achiv problem solved
Or... like the ORIGINAL CHALLENGE DUNGEONS... put a leader board up for times.
No, timer is not the problem. Key depletion is.
Addons used to make you above the bar with players not using addons being the bar, now using addons is the bar and you're below it if you don't, and that's the problem.
It's not a problem at all. Just game with people who don't use addons if you don't like that. Total non issue.
@@h347hit is an issue because the game design is not focused around the game itself communicating effectively. Every fight should be easily digestible and able to be understood with the base Blizzard UI. Nobody should feel as if they should need to use add-ons to perform better. The game itself should communicate ways in which you can succeed or fail in a manner that a viewer can easily recognize what is happening.
If this is not true, it is a failure on the designer's end.
It's the same thing with fully optimized rotations and talent builds. Nowadays everyone just looks up guides on how to play their class and copies their talent builds from websites.
@@H41030v3rki110ny0u It literally has multiple tiers, with literal mechanics explained. Each tier up slightly ramps up the difficulty. LFR and Normal raids are comically easy. The only people who never progress are the people who lack initiative. Which mirrors real life.
Go with deaths, but keep the timer that has cosmetic rewards for the sweat-lords and bragging rights/leaderboards that use fastest runs as a metric
if thats what youre going for then why remove the timer at all?
why not just play the game the way it is right now? the timer really doesnt matter...if you complete the dungeon in 1 hour or 2 or 3 or 4 or 8 youll still get vault rewards, youll still get crests and youll get loot at the end of the dungeon.
so whats the point of removing the timer?
if youre going to remove the timer then you might as well remove the key scaling system as well since the timer is at least 50% of the challenge in high keys.
and if youre going to remove the scaling system, then we can just go back to good ol mythic 0s...so why dont you just do m0s?
oh because you want better "rewards"
THEN EARN IT lol.
The existence of a timer, in any form, is what makes the current experience toxic. Someone who wants those cosmetics/position on the leaderboard will be just as toxic to the other members of the party.
Even if they took away the timer, groups are going to zoom from the front to the back asap as usual. There's no timer in heroics and people sprint the whole way, even when they really can't weather the damage.
spoken like someone who's never done a key above a 6
I think Raider IO would implement an "avg deaths per run" tracker and people w/o the addon wouldn't get chosen.
Then get rid of Raider IO access to WoW info...
Dear Blizzard. When the community says "Remove the Timer", they don't mean: "Remove the Timer and give us another BS-mechanic that disadvantages certain roles and classes and adds needless stress into the game." - They mean "Remove the f*ing timer".... If a death-counter is the alternative, for the love of god, please please please just keep the timer....
Also. A tiny fraction of people complain about the timer, a lot of people complain about key depletion. And those people are by the way mostly the ones who run "normal" Keylevel PUGs (2-10) and people who are pushing high keys. The "Your Key won't drop under 12 if you reach 2850 rating" feature is pretty much the most misguided "fix" you could have done. Thanks a lot.
This being said. Making a Dungeon run over time way less punshing than it was may have already been enough of a fix alltogether. Moving from "You've just wasted 45 Minutes" to "You slightly reduced your loot" was already a big step - if now the Key wouldn't deplete, that'd be even better!
Blizz needs to do:
- Remove timer
- Remove key break
- Punish leavers by reducing their rank score and lockout-timers on queueing m+ if they failed to return back in time. Like ANY other game that has Ranked mode. The more they leave the more they get punished, more rank lost more lockout time.
@@Vash.Baldeus you can do the dungeons the way they are right now as if there is no timer OR death counter.
as long as you finish the dungeon, youll get vault rewards, loot and crests. just put in your lfg description "going for completion, not time" - people do this all the time.
so, what exactly does removing the timer solve?
@@jgro9 The toxicity around M+, the forcing of using META specs/classes. Leavers..
Why can't you just have an option or running M+ with or without a timer? And adjust the rewards
@@Vash.Baldeus why not just have a timed m+ and a death counter m+ that are both options when ur gonna do a dungeon, no point in removing something when u can just add a choice that allows ppl to continue to do the timer if they like that or change to death counter if they like that
Why do you need either deaths or timer? I don't understand. Just let people do the dungeons at their own pace, in the way they enjoy. What't the problem with that?
Go do mythic and heroics then, M+ having a timer is fine, it's other systems around it that suck.
I think it makes the encounter far too casual.. I enjoy the rush nature of it, I can do multiple dungeons with my time, the a group needing to stop at every pack of mobs
@@shamba4406 Heroics and Mythics are way to easy. It's impossible to have something hard without are timer or a death limit ?
@@alexisonbike3652 Which is exactly why there must be a timer. Without the timer everything will be boring and easy. Then their only source of difficulty is more dumb oneshot mechanics and then people get addons that solve it. The timer is central to both issues.
@@alexisonbike3652 They should just add a dungeon mode with increased difficulty then, like delves. Dont punish the players who like m+, yes it has it flaws but removing everything that makes m+ unique is the wrong direction imo
I "only" do keys at 10, did them at 20 earlier when it was recent - never thought the timer was a problem. Toxic players will always be there.
The death counter ist plain stupid!
I did delves with abolutely dumb players, we wiped so much ... imagine this in m+. No thanks.
The deaths will lower m+ participation for sure.
THANK YOU!
most players dont realize this.
its just like bad cops...sadly there is nothing you can do to remove all of them and you most certainly dont want to punish the good ones.
there will always been toxic players and from my experience, 99.9999% of them are in the lower keys.
Maybe we wouldn't need weakauras if Blizzard didn't make every boss a f*cking enigma puzzle with invisible pieces on a 5 seconds to wipe deathtimer that require players to make a hugely coordinated ballet dance while we are already busy dealing with the boss and probably his adds? Maybe... Just maybe.... JUST MAKE A COHESIVE F*CKING BOSS FIGHT INSTEAD????
Have timers and death counts, two separate modes. PVP has a bunch of different modes, do the same for dungeons.
PvP also has solo queue in which you can reach the highest rating. I would love a M+ solo queue system so I don't have to spend 30+ minutes trying to put a group together every time I want to play the game.
Maybe if players didn't need a 30 page user manual / raid boss, addons were not so important either. Other mmos can have engaging/fun/hard raids too without unnecessarily convoluted bossfights. ^^;;;
The boss fights are not hard, it's just people expect to kill bosses without even learning them.
put a pause button in (for them afk situations) if something is pulled timer restarts, stop keys diminishing, simple
Removing the mythic plus timer would leave me completely uninterested in this game. At that point the debate would be over in my head. Timed dungeons are literally the only reason I play wow.
The ads could be shorter (and I mean your ads because I have UA-cam Premium). Freaking long for the length of your video.
History is repeating itself. The addon "arms race" was an issue vocalized by WoW devs way back during MoP (or maybe Cata).
In Wrath they had issues with it. They had to disable addons that wrote over the game world to tell you and your group where to stand during a certain boss fight. I can't remember which one it was off the top of my head, but I think it was in ICC
@@la7era1u54 oh you mean the same stuff "the best guild" used to delete the need to think for archimondes "Wrought Chaos" ? or the among us from the lords of dread? or which bomb to put into which hole in the Jailor fight? yeah seems like blizz doesnt give a shit anymore about that one.
As someone who exclusively plays M+, I approach this discussion from the perspective of a dedicated player. I do not raid beyond Heroic, nor do I engage in PvP. M+ has been my focus since BFA and remains my largest time investment in the game.
I firmly believe that the removal of the timer lacks careful consideration. If the timer were replaced with deaths as the sole metric of success (like delves) it would fundamentally undermine the mode for those who enjoy M+ at its core. Such a change would not cater to existing or recently past M+ players but instead to a different audience, one that already has content tailored to them, such as delves.
The essence of Mythic+ lies in its sense of urgency. As key levels increase, the stakes rise, the timer becomes more significant, and players feel compelled to improve their skills. This tension and drive are integral to the mode's appeal. Replacing the timer with a death counter would render time irrelevant. Groups could proceed at an excessively slow pace, pulling minimal packs to minimize risk. While bosses remain challenging, the overall experience would become tedious, far less skill-intensive, and ultimately unengaging. This shift would dilute the sense of accomplishment and reduce Mythic+ to little more than a glorified participation trophy, as anyone and everyone could do it.
Such a system would strip the mode of its value and prestige. Achieving high-level delves, for example, is not widely regarded as an indicator of skill or dedication but rather as a reflection of time spent. This lack of meaningful progression is why delves have largely failed to capture player interest.
For high-key pushers, the rewards in Mythic+ come from beating personal bests or striving for a 0.1%. These achievements are fulfilling because they are difficult and require mastery of the mechanics, including the timer and being efficient. The timer is the foundation of what makes Mythic+ unique and rewarding. Removing it would alienate those who enjoyed the mode since Legion, BFA, Shadowlands, and Dragonflight.
That said, Mythic+ does have room for improvement. Key depletions, rewards, mounts, transmogs, tuning, affixes, and class balance all need updates. However, the timer is not among the issues that need fixing. If there is significant demand for an alternative format without a timer, it should exist as a separate mode rather than replacing the current format. This way, both player groups can enjoy the game in their preferred way.
Removing the timer would erode the foundation of Mythic+ and cater to a participation trophy mindset, diluting the game’s quality. Instead, we should focus on addressing actual problems while preserving the core aspects that make Mythic+, mythic+.
Yes, Yes, and Yes. This is absolutely it. I don't know a single person that likes M+ complaining about the timer, it's all these casual andy's that want it gone.
Wouldn't giving delves mythic tier difficulty and reward basically fix this?
chatgpt ahhh response
@@joejanota707 yes
@@Makze-op9sx I wrote up a message but it doesn't seem coherent enough, so i used chatgpt to clean it up.
I just don’t understand why some people are so insistent on timers. So what there would be turtle groups? You could still easily put together a “speed” group but actually be justified in requiring absurdly high item levels for the difficulty.
Removing the M+ timer would probably mean less specs getting rejected because they aren't the current meta, even though it would probably take the community a while to adapt. Shouldn't be a death counter though, should be a fail encounter... counter; any situation where the mobs reset.
Timer is the biggest barrier to entry for M+.
Look at season one for an average newcommer.
Level up to cap, do some open world, some delves and jump into an M+ that gives item upgrades, because that sounds like the reasonable level. Same step up in reward level as before.
That means starting doing M+ at around +7 level keys with half of the dungeon pool being dungeons you've never seen.
Way to much happening for the newcommer and no time to learn or analyse what happened because we are on a timer. Assuming they get in.
And veterans don't have time to guide or help because they too are on the timer.
And Thrall help you if your newbie was tanking.
Dungeons used to have varied types of encounters. Plain old mob packs, rooms full of traps (explosives, slows, stealthed mobs) requiring careful and planned movement, gauntlets that you rushed as far as you dared each pull, stand your ground scenarios and more. But in M+, due to the timer, the entire dungeon is one long gauntlet. And if the dungeon could not support that it would be reworked to do so or never be brought up to M+.
Simple things like elevators not controlled by players are a problem for M+ due to the timer. But without it they don't have to be as pass/fail.
How about a wipe counter instead of a death count per player
If they remove timer and put a death limit, a healer dying at a boss = wipe a tank dying to boss/pack = wipe and deaths are gone
Exactly, and the same toxicity will appear. Then later they will cater to them casuals who yells "remove death limit"
Not necessarily
I can't count how many times tank outlived a grp for a kill
@@espenpaulsen428 well the majority of players aren't competitive so most would say death to any counters
@@YumYum820 kinda missing the point here
I legit stopped raiding mythic because, I had to download so many addons to the point it just sometimes felt like why am I even here? It does sometimes feel like a bot could just play my character tbh. The fun off raiding is just not there anymore. Even m+ and pvp if anything pvp is almost impossible to play with out addons or at least they make it so much more easy.
And the UI gets absolutely insane. As a healer, I need like 8 different things to keep track of everyone's health and the fight progress, as well as proc notifications that constantly pop up. I feel like the F-35 lightnings UI is probabaly less congested than WoWs ui.
PVP is in a shit state too. Those add-ons ruin it. Game will be better when we play it instead of add-ons.
Dont need addons for raiding btw. Only m+
im sure youre situation is different but i got ce last week and i use weakauras for 1-5 tops mandatory ones for the whole raid. Boss mods. and method raid tools. i cant see any others being mandatory. Feeling forced to use other addons is seemingly a forced debuff that you might wanna look into lol
wtf are you making this shit up?its been the same addons for over 10 years now...a boss mod like dbm or bigwigs, weakauras,MAYBE a raidtool where the leader can put a list of stuff you can read,idk why this doesnt already exist in game,is it not better to have a list that shows you who is doing what? and then maybe loot council addon,that again..is just convenience
If they took out the timer, it would make me want to do m+
And yeah the whole "oh every pull is gonna wait for bloodlust" is such a crutch.
The addons problem is a design problem.
Our raid group is often 20-25 people and sometimes, the extra mechanics caused by these extra people is a pain
I think that if blizzard wants me to stop using my addons they need to make mechanics clear and visible.
I play FF and WoW pretty regularly and all of the mechanics in FF are telegraphed in a way I can blind prog Allaince Raids, dungeons and trials. They use consistent visual language that tells me to stay out the piss puddle. The boss will pose for more than a second or two before hitting a big AOE. Tank busters are always red and have that ⭕️ around the tank so healers know to give them a shield and tanks know to hit the mitigation.
Another thing is that WoW plays very fast so if you don’t have the mechanics memorized you’re going to die.
Get rid of Keystones! Once we complete a lower-level key, let us queue for the next higher one, like Delves. I love instant ques as tank, but then when I play my hunter I have to wait 20 minutes sometimes to get into a key, and by that time I really don't want to even play anymore.
Why not just get rid of any timer and just make a group wide debuff that gets worse with each death. This gives you time plan but you still get punished if some one dies.
Or have the loot pool get smaller as time progresses. Beat the boss within this time, get 6-8 drops. Take too long, it drops to 2-4. That way it allows slower groups to have a chance to get loot, just not as much as the more coordinated ones.
you can already play the game as if there is no timer. you complete the dungeon in 2 hours and youll still get loot, vault rewards and crests.
so, removing the timer really doesnt seem like it would change a whole lot nor does it seem helpful.
when you post your key in lfg, just put in the group description "playing the game without a timer. taking time to complete the key"
that way i can still the play the game the way ive been playing it for the last 5 years and you can play the game the way you want to play the game.
or you can just go do mythic 0, heroics or normal. those are also not timed.
While at it, remove timer, change it with death counter as said in the video. Remove the key breaking completely, and punish leavers who do not return back within a certain amount of time by reducing their ranking and time-lockout on their ability to queue for M+ like any other ranked game does.
@@jgro9 If someone makes a group with that in their title a majority are not joining.
God no for removing timer in M+, just remove depletion which they did , they need it to make it baseline instead of gatekeeping behind account wide achiv problem solved
When did blizzard ever change a core mechanic of the game in such a way? raids got more easy modes with worse loot, arena got solo shuffle with worse loot (no glad mount/title) so i dont see M+ being changed that much. What i could think about is something like "LFM+" with random matchmaking like the LFR which replaces delves after TWW, offers a similar reward structure as delves with champion gear / hero vault gear and a deathlimit instead of a timer and uses the same dungeons/affixes regular M+ does so people get a better entrypoint
skip to 1:55
Honestly, I feel if your going to remove the timer you might as well remove M+, whats the point? Better to make keys not deplete and work on better affixes and see if you can do something about queing for M+ in my opinion.
YEP!!! couldnt say it better.
I agree. Remove key depletion. Make the affixes fun or remove them and add a que-system at least for lower keys. A middle way would be adding the timer only at +8 or 10, so people can grind out most of their gear without it, but it remains for people who play for rating.
Mythic plus timer is fine. If you don't want a timer, don't do Mythic plus. Easy solution.
YEET! but i want my "participation gear"
Oh well. It's on the way out.
Elitism at it's finest
@Kunanas7 If you take that as elitism, I feel sorry for you. People that don't like PvP don't do arenas. People who don't enjoy pet battles don't touch pet battles. People who don't care about mounts don't farm old raids for them. IF there is content at the end of the game that you don't like, DONT do it. There is nothing wrong with the timer. If you cant handle it, don't do it. Or form groups that don't care about the timer. You still have the vault rewards. You still get crests. You still get gear. Stop trying to make every aspect of the game casual and accessible to everyone. Competition is healthy and desired. And perfectly fine. FOMO is destroying the integrity of games that are fine the way they are.
@@BrofessorBox You're the most sane person here. Some of these people are clowns bro.
Since you brought the ovenex boss fight example up. Different worm adds requiring different kicks is *exactly* the non intuitive, chorelike type of boss mechanic they would have to get rid of, or redesign if they truly wish to be done with combat addons and/or weakauras. Yes, even in mythic and i am willing to die on that hill.
Death counter would mean groups with two healers.
on one hand, removing the time would make it more chill because you are not forced to speed through the dungeons. on the other hand, i know the community, random groupes would speed through the dungeon anyway and the flaming starts as soons as someone dies (even if they are not at fault)
Death limit sounds like Blizz doubling down on the current death penalty. Like we want it to go away not replace the timer
I think Blizzard could do something about the death counters, for example make them a personal counter and it only affects your loot instead of the group's loot if you die. That also has it's own setbacks because if someone dies too much, maybe they would just leave the group but I think this version could go better.
The ability to show everything in a way you want is AWESOME. I have text messages/bars for most mechanics - because that's the way to parse information for me. I'm sure blizz wants me to look at all those splashing colors and waving boss models instead which are just a huge visual mess. The only place where it was somewheat possible was FFXIV and only in the fights they didn't decide to not do their arrow marks for some weird reason.
I LIKE to play UI. I'm interested in decisions, not reactions. What's fun is deciding how to recover from a mistake, coordinating where to run, etc - not parsing visual information or waiting patiently in the interrupt queue (that is just extra annoying when its done in split groups/multiple mobs, as several people talking at once on VC = noone hears anything). If you want me to not have addons - then do SUPER FLASHY red zones, arrows etc. Game of "which swirl is it" is worse than clicking buttons off weakauras.
2nd- I am a 622 Disc priest I choose not to do m+ because I resent the other players feeling like its the healers job to carry them through mechanics. Especially when they are like 50 ilvls too low to even be in the group. I started doing M+ during dragonflight but as soon as they changed the scaling and made m+ harder I quit. Again, mainly because of undergeard toons joining a m+
a lot of good news, I like to hear the game is getting better for those who still playing
This will put alot of presssure on healers for sure if they do deaths over time i think.
healers and tanks, like we dont have too few of them allready
Literally just removing the depletion mechanic would solve a significant amount of the pain, and toxicity, in M+. I don't get some folk who are adamant about depletion being good because not timing is somehow a marker of skill (ignoring that most people pug, and stuff can go down outside of your control); let people run the same dungeon on X key lvl until they time it as much as they want. It may actually allow people to practice and learn
I think the only way to go is to make things more visible (effects, boss abilities etc) the remove boss addons. The difficulty should be coordination and execution. That will break the arms race but it will need a lot of changes to both the wow engine but also encounter design. I think it will go that way but think they will do it gradually and start design it into newer encounters.
I have to add here at the top, I think the evoker thing is down to the dracthyr, not the class or specs. A race like that is only ever going to be niche, and a loooot of people care about their character.
I hope they do remove the timer from rewards, maybe keep it as a for fun mode for speedsters. I just don't like the feel of it.
Here's what I think on addons: If you disable some functionality, you can design an experience that is still challenging, simply because now the difficulty is more organic rather than balanced against that addon feature. Just make sure to incorporate actually useful features to the game.
What if they gave everyone who entered M+ an instant reincarnate? Deaths still count towards completing the key, but one death does not full affect whole group, when it is tank or healer.
Blizzard is going to need to redesign their fights if they're going to crack down on add ons. As someone who doesn't use add ons at all, I can tell you straight up that VERY FEW boss mechanics are "telegraphed". If you don't have add ons, you literally don't know what to do unless you read a guide. There are no indicators to what's going to happen. Occasionally you'll get warnings that SOMETHING is going to happen, but not what.
Basically, Blizzard have been relying on add ons to do the heavy lifting for their boss fights.
Depletion is infinitely worse than any problem you have with M+.
Anyone want to steelman depletion to me? Cause I literally do not understand it as a concept for M+. In fact I'd argue it's contrary to the fundamental idea that is...M+.
Gotta be consequences otherwise what’s the point
Well if we didn't have depletion then our mouth-breather fans couldn't say "just get good" to every criticism so we gotta keep the depletion -Blizzatd
@@Jay-407 That's your steelman? rofl. Thanks for proving my point Jay ;)
When is the retroactive transmog unlocks for all quests completed going live?
i wanted them to change dungeons in beta when they did the m+ rework, if they went to death charges...they could also have a way to gain lives if you do cool and interesting mechanical things or puzzles
Removing the timer is easily the worst decision they have been considering for a while ... MDI is basically dead with that.. kills the entire feel and idea of M+
They should change the name if they do that.
Do we even need to count deaths at this point ? I mean we dont wanna single anyone out right should be casual friendly .. maybe we just have it scale on damage and hp? Most of the community (loud minority) doesnt care for affixes anyways right ?
So really after we've implemented those changes maybe we guarantee the loot after 50% clear, why force people to clear the entire dungeon right ? I mean if they have spent all their cooldowns and are stuck on the 3rd boss they've already spent a lot of time in there right ? they should be rewarded for that surely..
Fucking participation trophy generation holy shit..
right. its not M+ without timers. the only people that dont realize this are the ones hard stuck sub +8s and they want their participation gear. its really unbecoming.
Them let MDI have a timer, don't let it dictate everyone elses experiance
Who cares about MDI? Let it die. 😂
"Participation trophy generation" more like generation of young adults that have jobs and families and not sweaty manchildren in a basement that have all day to play a video game. lolcow statement
Just make stuff visible, explain it in simple terms in the journal, and ban weak aura's entirely. You can also make the raid as complicated as you want if we can just respawn at the encounter.
If Blizzard started adding features provided by certain addons it would mean they have to commit to keeping such things maintained. Which is precisely why I don't see them doing anything of the sort, because it adds more work (and cost) for them that people are already doing for the community for free.
For Mythic+, Instead of individual deaths they should just track "full wipes", give everyone a BR hotkey when out of combat but inside a key.
Getting rid of affixes would nice along with being able to replace someone who leaves the group.
The affixes already are virtually nonexistent.
Removing the toxic timer would be a fantastic change. Adding the delve death counter would result in M+ participation booming! The toxic timer has a hive mind mentality of fast is always better. That indoctrinated likemindedness has bled into many other aspects of the game such as LFR and Normal raids as well as heroic dungeons. This hive mind mentality of the "go fast" hardcore crowd works within the M+ top players who play and know the routes are on comms together or play together regulary. For the other 90%+ of the casual subscription playerbase this is ineffective to say the least. Tanks overpulling is the biggest factor and it's not the tanks fault entirely. They have been conditioned to play out of control because the toxic timer has infected so many players with a mindset that we need to "go fast". In a pug group this ends up having the opposite result and the dungeons or raids end up taking longer because the overpulling tank wipes the group or kills off players and overall taking more time to finish the dungeon or raid.
Adding the delve death counter to replace the toxic timer will be a huge boon to the M+ game.
No man this would make a M+ run into a raid one run = 2 hours+
the "toxic timer" "hive mind" LOL, are you a bot?
you can do the dungeons the way they are right now as if there is no timer OR death counter.
as long as you finish the dungeon, youll get vault rewards, loot and crests. just put in your lfg description "going for completion, not time" - people do this all the time.
so, what exactly does removing the timer solve?
you sound like a player that is hard stuck sub 8. you actually have no idea what youre talking about.
a death timer would most certainly increase toxicity because now there is only one way to fail, you just lack the ability to think that far ahead. you just want your Max IL "participation gear"
this would kil M+. You have delves for what you want, stop trying to destroy content u don't like.
@@shamba4406 I like M+ and this would be a fantastic change. Participation is continuing to drop and the toxic timer has been and continues to be a hot button issue. It's time for a change.
@@dvlfilmsandmusic No it wouldn't, that's ridiculous. Nobody is going to sit around and wait for cd's every pull.
i want to play a BLADEMASTER blizzard! PLEAAASSSSEEEEE
Finally a useful comment that tackles the real issue of WoW! Obviously nobody wants to play some weird dragon-thing, in a world that misses the Blademaster for over 20 years now!
@bellular you should do a video on how PVP players are reliably banning each other by being toxic and reporting opposing teams, or reporting healers in shuffle for being "bad" many people end up banned at the end of as season when the bulk ban goes out. It's a strange time, people lose decade old accounts every season because they are "bad" Lol. Blizzard has no customer service so the review/fix process is basically non existent.
hate to break it to ya, but Bell and co. arent really pvpers themselves and if we're being objective, PvP in WoW is all but dead and has been for years. There just arent enough people left to care. Let alone make a successful video about it.
Blizzard doesnt care about pvp, its pretty obvious by the neglect for the last 10 years. Just play a real pvp game instead of playing a dead cash grab?
Wait is that really happening right now? i skipped both shadowlands and dragonflight but came back for war within and been having a fun time healing shuffle but get a toxic player calling me bad every once in a blue moon now i'm little worried they might be secretly reporting me
Remove timer, replace with death limit. If you clear the dungeon, still get full loot. If you hit the death limit, no key upgrade. No penalty! And buff loot drops. Every person should get one piece of gear per M+ run.
bet you are someone around 619 with the highest m+ done 8.
God no for removing timer in M+, just remove depletion which they did , they need it to make it baseline instead of gatekeeping behind account wide achiv problem solved
Its the same thing over and over, people just want their best gear by just breathing.
Just make mythic mythic again, no more plus, timers or lives, make endgame about raiding like it used to be, more fun imo
Not timing a key is usually the result of deaths anyway, so I like this approach.
God no for removing timer in M+, just remove depletion which they did , they need it to make it baseline instead of gatekeeping behind account wide achiv problem solved
Regarding the Addon Arms Race, if the game had one third of what the addons allow us to do inside and outside of Raids, the amount of QoL addons that exist we would not rely on addons so heavily to play this game. But alas the game became more complex in comparison to WoW Classic, the pace changed, the mechanics on bosses changed and a human brain can not process the sheer amount of things that happen during a boss fight.
ff14 savage content would like to have a word with you. they have timelines posted to the second as to when x y z move is done and it simply requires player input to learn and adjust properly to do the content
WoW is one of the few MMOs that heavily relies on addons to support its content. anyone that gripes against the removal hasn't seen the other side and are genuinely missing out on fun content.
@@wundyboygaming I do not want Addons removed, but if WoW wants to remove them? They will have to add those same mechanics into the game base itself, a rather enormous undertaking, staff, time and money they will have to put up to accomplish. Feels like Blizzard have not learned from the fiasco where they attempted to FORCE their players to play Overwatch way Blizzard wanted, it does not work that way, so they think that Addons are a bad thing so they want to remove it instead of remove it by offering an alternative solution.
M+ doesn’t make sense without a timer. There are a ton of changes they can (and have made) to the mode without removing the timer.
God I hope they don't kill the GSE addon. As a 60-year-old with carpel tunnel, I can't play the game without it. It would be goodbye to WoW for me ... which would be heartbreaking, as I've been there since opening day on Vanilla.
Yeah it's baffling how many games will ban add-ons that help with accessibility and not try to add them to the game.
I have a same problem. only 59 years old and whiteout gse mine hand cant play the game anymore
As for mechanics and interface solutions, the goal of this should be to integrade missing things into the game, so people don't feel the need for addons. I heavily rely und weakaura timers for buffs and debuffs as well as additional visual ques for certain abilities. These are things which are simply missing from the base game and should be there.
why not just add a pause button for m+ runs where you can pause for a moment to open the door, check in with your dog or have a quick pee? competive Games like SC2 or WC3 have this. I think real-life obligationen during the run shouldnt be an argument for death-limit vs timer
Blizzard needs to take a lesson from FF14. You don't need addons in that game because of how clear the marking system for effects are; circles with arrows pointing inwards for group soaks; circles with arrows pointing outwards for avoids, etc. Strong contrasts vice green swirlies on grass, or purple swirlies with poorly defined edges on purple stone.
just waiting for next month if i prog the trading post anymore i get a stupid murloc outfit. gotta find something else to play in the meantime
I like how you trick us to look at your ad by baiting us with the false segment clip
They won't blame Johnny Hunter. It'll still be on the healer.
getting the pets leveling them and doing the petbattle was a pain in the a**
Once your group reaches the highest key they've ever done I guarantee they will wait for cooldowns for every difficult obstacle. The idea is simply not going to work. It's going to cause problems that will be immediately evident.
Tbh people only feel any pressure on mythic plus due deplete mechanic, I can guarantee that once depleting is gone alot of toxicity will be gone, since most of it is due being punished by other people's mistakes. w/o depletion is just a small time wasted.
Why do we not have a Score system for M+ that takes deaths and time into consideration, then they could do drops/io based on score. High score could = more than 2 drops per run and low score could still be a completion just only reward valor/io.
If blizz is talking about removing the timer it tells me that devs are incompetent and need to be fired..... absolute stupidity. I would never play wow again if they did that.
Ban all addons and implement as many useful addons as necessary
Shit take and would kill the game. There's plenty of communities that use addons in some form that do not and have not ever harmed the game. Stop parroting this opinion because your favorite twitch streamer or youtuber said it.
In other words, lower the skill ceiling for bad players.
@devnull1013 that would quite literally raise the skill ceiling because regarded people like you wouldnt be able to have addons play the game for them
The best possible thing Blizzard could do for the game is ban all addons. Ya it might suck, but it's by far the one thing that would do the most to save the game.
Trying to make M+ into this new "one size fits all" is going to finally kill my favorite game mode...
Who do you think the pug all stars will blame those deaths on?
bruh if people think M+ is toxic now, a death counter will make it infinitely worse. just imagine, in between pulls people literally stopping to flame each other *because you can*, or the whole thing gets bricked because that one guy stood in a puddle on the last boss.
if there is only one way to fail, then there is really only one way to flame and if you give degens the time to flame in between pulls, you better believe they WILL do it.
tbh not a fan of the death count but honestly it is substantially better (potentially, depending on amount of deaths) than the timer M+ have now
As far as addons go, Blizz just needs to stop caring about the fact there are addons and design as if there weren't any addons, if people want to ruin their own fun by downloading addons, let them, if people want to the authentic experience Blizzard intends to ship, they wont download addons that help with fights.
At the end of the day, they design bosses that are meant to be beat, if you are so mental you can't do a boss mechanic without addons, use it.
I heard removing timer from m+ and it made me drop a tear. Basically no reason to even play wow anymore 😢
People who want the timer to be removed are garbage at the game and don't have opinions worth listening to
I like how I'm in a Taxi on the way home from Lavery's in Belfast, I open my phone, and Belular has posted.
OMG your life must be awesome! Please tell us more about the story of you visiting a pub and being in a taxi, which is completely relevant.
i feeel like if they taught us what each animation actuially meant you were supposed to do, then we wouldnt need addons to tell us to move - how are you supposed to knoiw if you soak or dodge etc - there needs to be like a mechanic training dungeon or something
I was surprised that the hotfix that added all the citrines for the ring wasn't mentioned (though personally I seemed to hit a wall where none of the dig events would drop the last 4-5, even though I heard that every event would drop one).
You can buy some of the gems from the turtle guy in the camp just an fyi if you didnt know.
@@BCxRedemption But only if you've already found them via the events I think. The vendors are meant for alts to purchase the same gems that you already found.
I thought M+ might be cool if they rolled in affixes, then death counters, then timers when it gets to prestige. That being said, I don't want people to feel either cheated of challenge or too scared to try.
What if when you insert your key, you simply choose between timed and a death counter?
Solution to the dungeon problem , m+ no death timer no death count.
I've been wanting a no timer dungeon end-game for a long time. If people want to keep the timer so badly, blizz can leave it in as a separate mode and the small pool of miserable m+ sweats can just go run that in their corner all day I guess.
so you want to change m+ into delves, the most boring game mode. the only reason people did was to get easy gear
Death limits is FAR better than timers. Period. I mean think more time people are playing their game the better. Also a world without addon's requires more communication to the player about mechanics. Boss's having visual wind ups and swirlies having clear borders, etc. also having a more robust UI would be fantastic. I would love to see a menu tab next to macros where I could whitelist and black list cooldowns, customize where my cooldowns are displayed and how they are displayed. As well as having the option to disable certain UI elements like the menu and bag bar that I have bound and never actually click. We are SO close to a WoW without addon's. Just one or two more good updates to the UI system in game and we are golden. I'm all for WoW being new player friendly again.