Its actually not that important, given the emphasis of slow, well directed volleys in British tactic of the period. Remember that all these guns used black powder, which produced a ton of smoke. A line of troops firing together at maximum rate would soon be enveloped in blinding smoke, and hence been unable to aim at all. At the battle of Centane in 1878, where the 24th Regiment of Foot faced 4,000 Gcaleka warriors, they were recorded firing at a leisurely rate of 5 rounds per minute, which was still enough to break the enemy's ferocious charge. In most battles of the Zulu War this would have also been seen as normal, as we knew the the total expenditure of ammunition; 10 rounds per man at Gingindlovu, 6.4 at Ulundi and 33 rounds at Khambula (over 4 hours). All in all slow, well directed volleys was the order of the day.
@@chroma6947 I suppose that is of some advantage. It cant hurt at any rate. The main advantage of the Martini over the Snider was the cartridge, which was just as powerful at the muzzle, but far flatter shooting.
4 - 5 MOA rifles (which was basically the standard for off the rack rifles in WW2), and able to put 10 rounds down range in under 60 seconds. In theory that should let you put 10 in the black in a High Power rifle competition rapid fire stage. (not to mention that technically you're doing 9 reloads not just 1) You have a great channel, your knowledge, delivery, dry humor and good production makes it always a treat.
Another fascinating video! You really help bring history to life for me. Every time I read my books on Victorian warfare I think of your videos because they help me to better understand the weapons and tactics used during the period.
Sir, you have the coolest UA-cam channel I have found in years. Thank you for keeping history alive and major compliments on your video production quality.
As always, it's an absolute pleasure to watch your videos. Your historical contextualization provides a compelling reason to take a few minutes out of the day to see the best weapons documentaries available. While you make them, I'll watch them.
Thoroughly enjoyable and informative. This video has more than earned my subscription. When you have the time a similar break down of the small arms of the Boer Wars would be fascinating.
A truly excellent film. Presented in a highly professional and dispassionate way. No fuss, no flash, a really nice style. Superb safe and well-drilled weapons skills. Logical and fair conclusions based on good testing. A model of a military lecture. Thank you very much. I watched it as a friend of mine has just gotten hold of a Martini Henry. His is a serving RAF Sqn Ldr. I am an ex Royal Engineer Officer.
Thank you Guy. Glad you enjoyed it. There is plenty more Martini stuff here on the channel, if it might help. In Canada, Engineers would part by saying "Chimo"...
Awesome videos, thank you for so much information! I am currently in Afghanistan and after digging through piles of rifles I picked out two Sniders and a Martini to send home, starting my collection. I contacted X-Ring to get setup with my brass and molds. Top notch service, thank you for the referral! Waiting for the next video: Martini-Henry versus the Official Red Ryder, carbine action, two-hundred shot range model air rifleCheers- Joshua
Hey, Joshua. Hope you are keeping safe. Glad that you got in touch with Martyn. Top shelf, he is. Bet that you can't wait to get home and start putting your new finds through their paces!
Both the the Snider, and the Martini-Henry were damned fine combat rifles; but it's the hits that count. Excellent rapid fire drills, and break down of the results. It was a pleasure to watch.
I'm not a gun owner (Because finland and too lazy to get a licence for those) but your how to load martini henry cartridges popped up in my suggestions and now i can't stop watching your videos. The most soothing voice on youtube!
I have an unnatural love affair with the Snider and it was great to see her put through the paces! The Martini’s efficiency is a thing of beauty as well.
Nice Vid. Now I'm going to have to find me a Martini Henry. Also a shout out to Martyn. I just got my Snider Brass and the mold and couldn't be happier. Really sweet gentleman.
That’s 13% for each rifle in the field. 11 rounds per minute compared to 10 plus the higher accuracy would be a huge gain. Also great video, you have a new follower. I liked the holistic approach to what has impacted the test results and showing what each rifle was capable of when accuracy was the priority over speed 👍
I took part in the Royal Tournament in 1985 while in the Army Cadet Force in the uniform of a 1660’s guardsman. The uniform came from a costume company, but the rifle was the Snider (using period drill movements including loading, and putting the blank in on the sly so no one saw it), and that came from the British Army’s armoury. You can find the video of us on here, the ND during the infantry square was a new kid in their first performance, and we weren’t allowed to scare the horses like we did in the first rehearsal when the cavalry charged us
I love this channel because you always make videos about scenarios I wouldn't even think about otherwise. Thanks for giving us UA-camrs a slice of Commonwealth militaria and always making it interesting!
Another thing of note is fine motor control. The Snider has several more small steps compared to the Martinis lever down, cartridge in, lever up procedure. Under stress, the Sniders time would most likely increase while the Martini would stay relatively the same
The theory is correct, of course... the thing, is that rarely in battle did it make the kind of difference one might think.... the vast majority of the time, troops fired in volleys. Tightly controlled and fired well below the maximum rate...
Another Great Video by britishmuzzleloaders. Always tackles the topic in a logical, systematic way c/w super visuals (color, demonstrations, uniforms, hardware, a little humor) and audio. Well Done!
Martini Henrys are great and another excellent video. In fact, military Martinis are excellent in general. I shot at the 6th Pacific Regional Shooting Championships Service Rifle match recently and in Rapid Fire 50m had the rare opportunity to compete against 2 other different Martinis with my 1899 Martini Enfield 303. Our National Combined services chairman shot an original Martini Henry 577/450 and another competitor used a Martini Cadet in 310 Greener. The time limit for 5 rounds at a 600mmx600mm target was 45 seconds but I could have easily done it with my 303 Martini at the same rate you managed with the Henry. The flow of reloading and firing is natural and the drawn cases eject easily. I can imagine, however, this was not so much the case with wrapped cases.
Cadets, like every other kind of Martini, are a blast. In Combined Services Discipline we shoot a class called 310 Cadet and 22 Trainer Rifle. Since Australia commissioned BSA, Greener and Francotte to build small frame Martinis in the early 20th century specifically for the purpose of teaching boys marksmanship there are plenty here to be bought. IMO, if you're paying over $450 for a really nice example you're paying too much. The cases are the most expensive bit. They use between 4 and 8 grains of powder, depending on whether it's pistol or rifle powder and the cast bullets are cheap. The other great thing is they're a superb starter rifle for juniors. And no wonder! That's what they were built for. But the rear sight with micrometer windage adjustment means with practise you can hit a 2m x 2m core target @300m easily. Sure, you can feed the dog, make a coffee, visit the toilet and get settled into your comfy chair before it hits the target but it will get there and I know really good shooters who have cleaned up in the 3 Postion core match against SMLEs and Swedish Mausers. I'll have to pop some footage of us shooting Cadet & Trainer onto UA-cam. Our next match is this Sunday so it shouldn't be hard.
Thanks. It's actually a real pleasure to shoot the Martini Enfield. It's relatively light and comes quickly to the shoulder. The reasonably straight comb puts the recoil straight back and it points exceptionally well. It's a really nicely handling piece. Just gotta keep your thumb on the thumb rest to stop it whacking you nose!! I committed what must seem the cardinal sin - I rebarreled it. But the bore was like a drystone chimney for the forward half of the barrel and the jag literally rattled across the pitting!! So it shoots beautifully now. The loads are mild Sierra MatchKing 174gn HPBTs, basically similar to the MkVII load but cooler to protect the action.
You and your awesome videos, sir, are responsible for my own venturing into the realm of the Martini-Henry. It has been a thoroughly expensive, frustrating, rewarding and immensely pleasing journey. Thank you kindly! if only I could find a lee-metford now...
Thank you for your very kind words! Any day that there is another Martini shooter in the world is a good day! Don't put too much credit on the channel, you would have got there eventually!... :-) Cheers.
Excellent video as always Sir! I really love all kind of transition guns and the words of Rudyard Kipling says it all. A Snider squibbed in the jungle, Somebody laughed and fled, And the men of the First Shikaris Picked up their Subaltern dead, With a big blue mark in his forehead And the back blown out of his head.
One thing that I think is worthy of note is the fact you said the Martini was a "near effortless cycle of loading, firing and unloading" compared to the more cumbersome process of the Snider, which I would imagine made the Martini easier to operate in stressful situations, thus making the rifle better in a combat situation and/or for newer less experienced soldiers. I could be wrong, I have never fired a gun in my life except an air rifle.
Once you practice with anything you get good at it. So much of these quaint little exercises is fumbling with the ammo in the pouch... Admittedly part of the experiment.
Only just discovered this by random Googling (have been writing a little about the changeover from Sniders to the Martini today). Both look like they have quite a kick. Very interesting, very nice video. A clear, no nonsense demonstration with some excellent touches (loved the background music, the targets, the lovely vaguely Hindu Kush scenery and the descriptions to the images/photos). Many thanks.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Many thanks. Yes, I've been happily browsing... I'd been doing some research on Kipling and Kafiristan, which led me to the Snider/Martini comparison. So very pleasing to see a visual of Pvt. Mulvaney's comment.."the Martini Henri bein' new to the rig'mint.......'twas a long time before I cud get out av the way av thryin' to pull back the back-sight an' turnin' her over afther firin'-as if she was a Snider" .
Another fascinating video. Given the initial teething troubles, of the Martini, and the adverse comment this generated in Parliament and the press, I see now why there remained a body of support for the insider. Most interesting, sort of shades of the SA80 Keep up the good work.
I think that the initial teething troubles were with the "long chamber" ammunition, originally intended for use... too fragile... is this what you are referring to?
new subscriber here sir. well done. have enjoyed all the videos so far. I think the fact you cover the entire range of the shooting experience, kit, weapon and drill is what makes it perfect. keep it up.
@@mikaelnielsen582 It's a bush jacket from the 1950s, and a covered Kilmarnock of a pattern from the 1850s. The is an entire "Kit" series in the Misc Playlist if you are interested.
Yes they basicaly got handed down to lesser paramilitary forces. I ownd one stamped from prisons. I met an old officer in our rifle club at the range. He told me they were issued the rifle and 5 rounds when going up the tower. Often the projectiles would be loose in the round. Obviously things have modernised to M1 carbines then some L1A1s. Later other Semi autos. Martini Henry actions were rechambered into 7.62 and .243 here. As well as MartiniCadets in .310 were converted to .223. The later was very accurate
britishmuzzleloaders it was in the comments section and I can’t find it now, sorry! I spent 24 years in the British Army, infantry and a large part of my job was maintaining the history and traditions of my Regiment. I thought myself quite the expert, particularly the Irish regiments, but , bloody hell what you and Brandon know is encyclopedic!!! Keep up the good work!
What a coincidence, I was just writing up an article on the Gatling gun and was reading about British trials with it against among other weapons two sections of rifle armed infantry, armed with the Snider and the then-about-to-be-adopted Martini Henry. The MH riflemen managed 391 rounds (with 152 rounds on target) to the Snider riflemen's 313 rounds (82 on target) at an ambitious 450 yards in 2.5 minutes. Sadly the source is vague in some of its detail and doesn't mention the target size and is a little hazy on range. The Gatling in comparison managed 1,925 with 651 hits. Great work as always Rob.
That is a great little gem, Matt. That's the kind of real-time experiment that you can take to the bank... Loose, broad claims of vast superiority of the Martini over the Snider are really put in their place but numbers like that. Of course, the Martini is the better weapon and it is interesting that roughly, the results I found are somewhat similar... IE mildly better rate of fire and noticeably better consistency. I imagine that the targets were the usual volley and independent firing targets of the era... 12' wide by 6' high with a 2' thick black band across the middle (for scoring)... From the 1870 Musketry regs... good place to start anyway...
britishmuzzleloaders That was my guess for the target. I was very pleased to see the figures and your experiment fit the bill. Fascinating stuff. Certainly nothing wrong with the Snider, carried by Colonial forces much longer than British units and wasn't found lacking.
It's very thought provoking to see the Martini just that bit faster than the Snider. One would indeed think of the lever action making really short work of rapid fire~ Excellent video :D
It was interesting to see the difference for sure.. . There are other aspects that make the Martini better, of course, but this is one that only adds an increment..
The snider enfield reminds me of the Springfield trapdoor rifle. Except it actually ejects the round, the breech block opens forward instead of to the side, and the cartridge was slimmer than the snider. 45-70.
Nearly purchased a Martini-Henri for 750 CND a couple weeks ago....but the store also had an original Lee-Enfield 1918...still, kind of wish I'd picked up the Martini :P
Very nice comparison of the two. I have always been a fan of the Snider for even though merely a stop-gap solution, it is still a very reliable design and it saw use in many conflicts around the world. I own two Snider cavalry carbines and love the handiness! Should get my hands on a Martini-Henry and a Snider long rifle at some point.
I would hazard a guess that it wasn't just the "hard facts" that you demonstrated that helped to determine the result. Though it's impossible to do an actual field test with such valuable old collectibles, I suspect in real world conditions, with rain, mud, sand etc... the Snider model would have had some issues. I can see some easy points of ingress for dirt into the firing mechanism, for example. Soldiers certainly would have reported issues back to command, and those would (hopefully) be addressed in the next generation....hopefully.🙂 You got access to some pretty sweet old equipment. Thanks for demonstrating it.
Abysinia in the 1860s was not the last campaign for the Snider. There was another campaign in which the Snider-Enfield was the predominant weapon on the "British" side, and that was the 1885 Canadian Northwest campaign. The "British" side was composed almost entirely of Canadian Militia, who for the most part had only been issued with surplus British Sniders to replace the obsolete breach loaders that most "inactive" militia used for drills. The Snider was therefore an improvement over what most of the troops had been using prior to their activation for this campaign. Only the very elite and most regular-like units (such as the Cavalry and Infantry Schools which trained officer cadets, or the Governor-General's Bodyguard) had Martini-Henrys in Canada at the time. There were no British regular troops involved as such, but the overall commander was British Major General Middleton, and the officer and non-com corps were heavily salted with UK immigrants with recent service. The Sniders were purchased from the British by the Canadian government and were genuinely appreciated I think as an upgrade.
Hi there. The video was made from the standpoint of British Service. The Snider was used by many in other campaigns, the 1885 Rebellion, as you mention, being one of them.... By far the greater user of the Snider was the Indian Army which used the Snider, nearly as long as the Canadians, for differing reasons mind you. There was one other campaign that the Snider was used and that was the Ashanti War of 1873. It's a point of minutia, but the Short Snider was used there exclusively. You are incorrect about the use of the Snider in Canadian service, however.... The Militia had been issued the Snider from the late 1860s... The Militia carried Canadian rifles, not hand-me-downs. I don't know what you are referring to when you say "obsolete breechloaders" as the Militia in whole was never armed with anything 'universal', except the P53, followed by the Snider, in this era..... Sure there were Peabodys and Spencers, etc... but these were never universal in their issue. Edgecome's "Defending the Dominion" is the authority on the subject.
Having shot a Gras, a Martini, a 71/84 Mauser, as well as a Werndl, and 1886 Mannlicher, I can comment that the robustness of the Martini design compensates well for any detriment in speed. The 1886 was finicky, the Gras extractor iffy. The most interesting to me would be to compare Werndl to Martini and Snider, as the Werndl requires 2 motions in the action like the Snider, but automatically and VERY positively ejects cases. That said, I bet I could get my Chassepot to nearly 10 rd/min, with treated paper cases. The accuracy, perhaps not so much.
Excellent as always. In your opinion did either rifle get hotter then the other? Witch rifle would have fouled out first and do you have any references of men behind the firing line wiping bores? These things come to me after a hard day on the range with my.50 2 1/2 Sharps, in 90 degree "0" humidity weather experiencing total lube failure.
No, they were pretty much the same kind of temperature. The Martini fires 85gr while the Snider, in this case, fires 62.5. There is more of a difference after 20 rounds, with the Martini being quite hot, but not inoperable, of course.
What would be interesting would be a side by side comparison between the Snider and the Alyn conversion trapdoor Springfield used by the US Army 20 years longer than the UK kept the Snider. We had some multiple shot rifles, like the Spencer, but kept the single shot trapdoor as the standard until being replaced by the bolt action five round Krag Jorgenson in 1892.
My guess is that there would be very little to compare as far as rate of fire goes... a slight advantage to the Trapdoor for it's extracting system....
Rob, an expected conclusion I would say but of course, as with all these sort of tests - nobody is shooting back! Non the less, up to your usual standard by boy, well done.
When you have 10,000 angry Zulu coming at you, that 13% faster firing rate makes a difference I would think.
plus from what I can see. having one less step to fail in reloading of said gun does add up especial as fatigue sets in.
Demon Hunter agreed plus that’s 13% for each rifle in the field
The problem of rate of fire with martini Henry comes later black powder fools barrel
@@redrb26dett Both rifles are black powder, so both would be affected by fouling. The real question is which one is affect more.
He fumbled a bit with one sht with the Martini - other than that, I bet he'd've been 15% faster with it.
Great to see a realistic test and heartwarming to see the old Snider keep pace!
I agree! The difference was not as pronounced as might have been expected. Glad you enjoyed it, Murph. Thanks.
He reminds me of Ron Swanson
Its the epic Mustache i think
Good to know I'm not the only one who thought this
I wonder who’d shoot better?
Are you telling me that he isn't Ron Swanson?
Oh my god yes
As always, top shelf presentation.
Cheers.
saw the first 10 seconds and knew i was gonna love this guy.
Haha... Thanks for that!
Excellent video! a real treat to watch
Thanks!
Great video, thanks.
Cheers, Matt.
Matt Easton watches British Muzzleloaders? Hooray! I want to do what Matt does, he does videos on swords and antique revolvers.
The empire wasn't defended by cheap parlor tricks! Excellent video, as always.
No it was not!... Cheers.
That's not a bad back yard you've got there, Rob.
It's not for everybody, but I love it out there.
Excellent video,
I think with the Martini, that 13% improvement spread over a rifle section leads to a significant tactical advantage.
Definitely. Was just thinking about that. Take 100 riflemen and that 13% materializes into a lot more lead laid down on advancing enemies.
@@CristianGabrielStan 13% is huge, not marginal in my mind
Its actually not that important, given the emphasis of slow, well directed volleys in British tactic of the period. Remember that all these guns used black powder, which produced a ton of smoke. A line of troops firing together at maximum rate would soon be enveloped in blinding smoke, and hence been unable to aim at all.
At the battle of Centane in 1878, where the 24th Regiment of Foot faced 4,000 Gcaleka warriors, they were recorded firing at a leisurely rate of 5 rounds per minute, which was still enough to break the enemy's ferocious charge. In most battles of the Zulu War this would have also been seen as normal, as we knew the the total expenditure of ammunition; 10 rounds per man at Gingindlovu, 6.4 at Ulundi and 33 rounds at Khambula (over 4 hours). All in all slow, well directed volleys was the order of the day.
@@HaNsWiDjAjA the main advantage is less steps and under stress that is a massive plus for the soldiers
@@chroma6947 I suppose that is of some advantage. It cant hurt at any rate. The main advantage of the Martini over the Snider was the cartridge, which was just as powerful at the muzzle, but far flatter shooting.
I was gifted a custom 45-70 govt built on a 1887 Martini frame it's an awesome rifle.
A Martini made to use easily obtainable brass? I'm jealous.
4 - 5 MOA rifles (which was basically the standard for off the rack rifles in WW2), and able to put 10 rounds down range in under 60 seconds. In theory that should let you put 10 in the black in a High Power rifle competition rapid fire stage. (not to mention that technically you're doing 9 reloads not just 1) You have a great channel, your knowledge, delivery, dry humor and good production makes it always a treat.
Very kind. Glad you enjoy the Channel!
Another fascinating video! You really help bring history to life for me. Every time I read my books on Victorian warfare I think of your videos because they help me to better understand the weapons and tactics used during the period.
That is a great compliment and I am humbled to receive it. Thank you very much.
Love this channel. By far the best historical gun related channel on youtube.
Cheers! Very kind of you.
Sir, you have the coolest UA-cam channel I have found in years. Thank you for keeping history alive and major compliments on your video production quality.
You are most welcome. Glad you have found things interesting here, on the Channel. Cheers.
Just want to let you know i came here for history and not video games, really appreciate what youve done here
Nice to have you along! Cheers.
Battlefield 1 got me here lol
Shaq Lopez thats what I was thinking
SAME
Shaq Lopez me 2
I figured there'd be more of you. Oh well, brittishmuzzleloaders will remain rare.
Shaq Lopez me 2
Years after you made this video, I'm watching it and super impressed. Lots of effort, crisp militarism, and excellent editing. Thanks very much, Gus.
Cheers! Lot's of both Martini and Snider stuff here!
As always, it's an absolute pleasure to watch your videos. Your historical contextualization provides a compelling reason to take a few minutes out of the day to see the best weapons documentaries available. While you make them, I'll watch them.
Thank you very much John. No plans to stop! Cheers.
Thoroughly enjoyable and informative. This video has more than earned my subscription.
When you have the time a similar break down of the small arms of the Boer Wars would be fascinating.
If you mean, the MLM/E and the Mauser, yes that would be interesting... First I'd need to get a Mauser.. :-)
A truly excellent film. Presented in a highly professional and dispassionate way. No fuss, no flash, a really nice style. Superb safe and well-drilled weapons skills. Logical and fair conclusions based on good testing. A model of a military lecture. Thank you very much. I watched it as a friend of mine has just gotten hold of a Martini Henry. His is a serving RAF Sqn Ldr. I am an ex Royal Engineer Officer.
Thank you Guy. Glad you enjoyed it. There is plenty more Martini stuff here on the channel, if it might help. In Canada, Engineers would part by saying "Chimo"...
:-)
Beautiful background and great video.
Cheers.
great gun
Awesome videos, thank you for so much information! I am currently in Afghanistan and after digging through piles of rifles I picked out two Sniders and a Martini to send home, starting my collection.
I contacted X-Ring to get setup with my brass and molds. Top notch service, thank you for the referral!
Waiting for the next video: Martini-Henry versus the Official Red Ryder, carbine action, two-hundred shot range model air rifleCheers- Joshua
Hey, Joshua. Hope you are keeping safe. Glad that you got in touch with Martyn. Top shelf, he is. Bet that you can't wait to get home and start putting your new finds through their paces!
that background is truly breathtaking what beautiful place to be your so lucky
Yes, the view is quite lovely, isn't it?
it sure is cheers for messaging me and, Greetings from Australia :-D
Both the the Snider, and the Martini-Henry were damned fine combat rifles; but it's the hits that count. Excellent rapid fire drills, and break down of the results. It was a pleasure to watch.
Glad to hear! Cheers.
I'm not a gun owner (Because finland and too lazy to get a licence for those) but your how to load martini henry cartridges popped up in my suggestions and now i can't stop watching your videos. The most soothing voice on youtube!
Thank you for the very kind compliment! Cheers.
I have an unnatural love affair with the Snider and it was great to see her put through the paces! The Martini’s efficiency is a thing of beauty as well.
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks!
Nice Vid. Now I'm going to have to find me a Martini Henry. Also a shout out to Martyn. I just got my Snider Brass and the mold and couldn't be happier. Really sweet gentleman.
Oh yes, Martyn is great!
That’s 13% for each rifle in the field. 11 rounds per minute compared to 10 plus the higher accuracy would be a huge gain.
Also great video, you have a new follower. I liked the holistic approach to what has impacted the test results and showing what each rifle was capable of when accuracy was the priority over speed 👍
Glad you enjoyed it. Thank you for the sub! There is always a fine line between accuracy and speed.
I took part in the Royal Tournament in 1985 while in the Army Cadet Force in the uniform of a 1660’s guardsman. The uniform came from a costume company, but the rifle was the Snider (using period drill movements including loading, and putting the blank in on the sly so no one saw it), and that came from the British Army’s armoury.
You can find the video of us on here, the ND during the infantry square was a new kid in their first performance, and we weren’t allowed to scare the horses like we did in the first rehearsal when the cavalry charged us
Thanks for sharing!
I love this channel because you always make videos about scenarios I wouldn't even think about otherwise. Thanks for giving us UA-camrs a slice of Commonwealth militaria and always making it interesting!
You are most welcome! Thank you for your kind words. Cheers.
Just rewatched with my toddlers. Good dose of history and firearms 👌
Thanks!
My favorite channel! You are loved!
Thank you very much!
Thank you for these videos. What you have done is not just given us a shooting video but also history
Thank you Charles. Glad you enjoyed it!
You have a GORGEOUS view there, nice place for a range! Excellent video as always, i love these topics.
Thanks!
Very professional and interesting video!
Thank you. Glad you enjoyed it.
Canada is so beautiful, scenery almost takes my attention from the beautiful rifles
..... almost...... :-)
Brilliant as always.Thank you.
Thanks!
Another thing of note is fine motor control. The Snider has several more small steps compared to the Martinis lever down, cartridge in, lever up procedure. Under stress, the Sniders time would most likely increase while the Martini would stay relatively the same
The theory is correct, of course... the thing, is that rarely in battle did it make the kind of difference one might think.... the vast majority of the time, troops fired in volleys. Tightly controlled and fired well below the maximum rate...
True! But the easier, the better. Fine video, as always!
excellent video as always.
Cheers.
Another Great Video by britishmuzzleloaders. Always tackles the topic in a logical, systematic way c/w super visuals (color, demonstrations, uniforms, hardware, a little humor) and audio. Well Done!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Martini Henrys are great and another excellent video. In fact, military Martinis are excellent in general. I shot at the 6th Pacific Regional Shooting Championships Service Rifle match recently and in Rapid Fire 50m had the rare opportunity to compete against 2 other different Martinis with my 1899 Martini Enfield 303. Our National Combined services chairman shot an original Martini Henry 577/450 and another competitor used a Martini Cadet in 310 Greener. The time limit for 5 rounds at a 600mmx600mm target was 45 seconds but I could have easily done it with my 303 Martini at the same rate you managed with the Henry. The flow of reloading and firing is natural and the drawn cases eject easily. I can imagine, however, this was not so much the case with wrapped cases.
Hi there. That's some good shooting! Those Cadets are such fun to shoot!
Cadets, like every other kind of Martini, are a blast. In Combined Services Discipline we shoot a class called 310 Cadet and 22 Trainer Rifle. Since Australia commissioned BSA, Greener and Francotte to build small frame Martinis in the early 20th century specifically for the purpose of teaching boys marksmanship there are plenty here to be bought. IMO, if you're paying over $450 for a really nice example you're paying too much. The cases are the most expensive bit. They use between 4 and 8 grains of powder, depending on whether it's pistol or rifle powder and the cast bullets are cheap. The other great thing is they're a superb starter rifle for juniors. And no wonder! That's what they were built for. But the rear sight with micrometer windage adjustment means with practise you can hit a 2m x 2m core target @300m easily. Sure, you can feed the dog, make a coffee, visit the toilet and get settled into your comfy chair before it hits the target but it will get there and I know really good shooters who have cleaned up in the 3 Postion core match against SMLEs and Swedish Mausers. I'll have to pop some footage of us shooting Cadet & Trainer onto UA-cam. Our next match is this Sunday so it shouldn't be hard.
Nice work!
Thanks. It's actually a real pleasure to shoot the Martini Enfield. It's relatively light and comes quickly to the shoulder. The reasonably straight comb puts the recoil straight back and it points exceptionally well. It's a really nicely handling piece. Just gotta keep your thumb on the thumb rest to stop it whacking you nose!!
I committed what must seem the cardinal sin - I rebarreled it. But the bore was like a drystone chimney for the forward half of the barrel and the jag literally rattled across the pitting!! So it shoots beautifully now. The loads are mild Sierra MatchKing 174gn HPBTs, basically similar to the MkVII load but cooler to protect the action.
You and your awesome videos, sir, are responsible for my own venturing into the realm of the Martini-Henry.
It has been a thoroughly expensive, frustrating, rewarding and immensely pleasing journey.
Thank you kindly! if only I could find a lee-metford now...
Thank you for your very kind words! Any day that there is another Martini shooter in the world is a good day! Don't put too much credit on the channel, you would have got there eventually!... :-) Cheers.
Excellent video as always Sir!
I really love all kind of transition guns and the words of Rudyard Kipling says it all.
A Snider squibbed in the jungle,
Somebody laughed and fled,
And the men of the First Shikaris
Picked up their Subaltern dead,
With a big blue mark in his forehead
And the back blown out of his head.
Great quote. Cheers.
Nice video, I liked the snap in the beginning.
Worked out OK, eh... It's not ILM but alright for $0 budget.... :-)
All of the videos are making me want to go out a buy one of these rifles. Manhandled both models at a recent local gun show.
Yes, do by both..... right now.... :-)
Heading to a larger show on Sept 25th so purchasing both just may happen.
One thing that I think is worthy of note is the fact you said the Martini was a "near effortless cycle of loading, firing and unloading" compared to the more cumbersome process of the Snider, which I would imagine made the Martini easier to operate in stressful situations, thus making the rifle better in a combat situation and/or for newer less experienced soldiers. I could be wrong, I have never fired a gun in my life except an air rifle.
Once you practice with anything you get good at it. So much of these quaint little exercises is fumbling with the ammo in the pouch... Admittedly part of the experiment.
That was a superb presentation.
Thank you!
Splendid work as always mate. I really look forward to your vids being released.
Keep up the great work
Thank you very much, my friend.
Only just discovered this by random Googling (have been writing a little about the changeover from Sniders to the Martini today). Both look like they have quite a kick. Very interesting, very nice video. A clear, no nonsense demonstration with some excellent touches (loved the background music, the targets, the lovely vaguely Hindu Kush scenery and the descriptions to the images/photos). Many thanks.
Thanks! Much more here if you are interested.
@@britishmuzzleloaders Many thanks. Yes, I've been happily browsing...
I'd been doing some research on Kipling and Kafiristan, which led me to the Snider/Martini comparison.
So very pleasing to see a visual of Pvt. Mulvaney's comment.."the Martini Henri bein' new to the rig'mint.......'twas a long time before I cud get out av the way av thryin' to pull back the back-sight an' turnin' her over afther firin'-as if she was a Snider" .
I love this guy's deadpan delivery, it's hilarious but also very informative. Makes me want to break my Martini Henry out of the gun cabinet.
Cheers.
Another fascinating video. Given the initial teething troubles, of the Martini, and the adverse comment this generated in Parliament and the press, I see now why there remained a body of support for the insider. Most interesting, sort of shades of the SA80 Keep up the good work.
I think that the initial teething troubles were with the "long chamber" ammunition, originally intended for use... too fragile... is this what you are referring to?
I love the way martini henry sounds
It's got a good report for sure.
I'm loving those black watch/Highland uniforms...
Glad to hear it. They are all variations of uniforms worn by the 78th/Seaforth Highlanders. Cheers.
A good and informative show as always! Thank you, kind sir!
Most welcome!
Superb Sir
Thank you.
I think the Martini-Henry blew all other Service rifles always until the late 1880's.
It certainly was a "soldiers' rifle"...
Yes! Excellent way to describe it. It seemed to have been designed for that purpose. It looks so simple to use and reliable.
Easily the best service rifle of the era until magazine fed bolt actions came around.
The 1871/84 Mauser wasn’t bad either
I've always thought the Martini-Henry was the most elegant and just plain cool rifle of its day. The history just makes it that much better.
It does have a rather iconic profile doesn't it?
Beautiful!
Nice thorough evaluation of these historic rifles. I'm not really a gun enthusiast, but I found the video pretty interesting...two thumbs-up:))
Thank you. Very kind!
4 years after publication and this appears in my feed today 🥰
Better late than never.... 🙂
Very informative and entertaining. I’m totally envious of your range!
Glad you enjoyed it!
new subscriber here sir. well done. have enjoyed all the videos so far. I think the fact you cover the entire range of the shooting experience, kit, weapon and drill is what makes it perfect. keep it up.
Hi there. Very happy that the content agrees with you. Thanks for the subby!
Love the march music while guy is shooting :D
Me too!
@@britishmuzzleloaders the uniform? any speciel branch or anything like that?
@@mikaelnielsen582 It's a bush jacket from the 1950s, and a covered Kilmarnock of a pattern from the 1850s. The is an entire "Kit" series in the Misc Playlist if you are interested.
The Martini Henry, converted to 303 caliber were used in the 1960's in NSW prisons in Australia
Interesting! Fairly common I should think as they were taken out of Military service... Constabulary, Prison Guards, etc,...
Yes they basicaly got handed down to lesser paramilitary forces. I ownd one stamped from prisons. I met an old officer in our rifle club at the range. He told me they were issued the rifle and 5 rounds when going up the tower. Often the projectiles would be loose in the round. Obviously things have modernised to M1 carbines then some L1A1s. Later other Semi autos. Martini Henry actions were rechambered into 7.62 and .243 here. As well as MartiniCadets in .310 were converted to .223. The later was very accurate
This guy looks like Ron Swanson
Your channel was recommended by Brandon F ‘s channel. I’m so glad that I looked you up. Subscribed and now binge watching!
That's nice to know! Thank you. When did he mention it?... He does some really good work himself! Glad you are enjoying things!
britishmuzzleloaders it was in the comments section and I can’t find it now, sorry!
I spent 24 years in the British Army, infantry and a large part of my job was maintaining the history and traditions of my Regiment. I thought myself quite the expert, particularly the Irish regiments, but , bloody hell what you and Brandon know is encyclopedic!!!
Keep up the good work!
The reloading of both rifles are very satisfying
Yes it is!
What a coincidence, I was just writing up an article on the Gatling gun and was reading about British trials with it against among other weapons two sections of rifle armed infantry, armed with the Snider and the then-about-to-be-adopted Martini Henry. The MH riflemen managed 391 rounds (with 152 rounds on target) to the Snider riflemen's 313 rounds (82 on target) at an ambitious 450 yards in 2.5 minutes. Sadly the source is vague in some of its detail and doesn't mention the target size and is a little hazy on range. The Gatling in comparison managed 1,925 with 651 hits. Great work as always Rob.
That is a great little gem, Matt. That's the kind of real-time experiment that you can take to the bank... Loose, broad claims of vast superiority of the Martini over the Snider are really put in their place but numbers like that. Of course, the Martini is the better weapon and it is interesting that roughly, the results I found are somewhat similar... IE mildly better rate of fire and noticeably better consistency. I imagine that the targets were the usual volley and independent firing targets of the era... 12' wide by 6' high with a 2' thick black band across the middle (for scoring)... From the 1870 Musketry regs... good place to start anyway...
britishmuzzleloaders That was my guess for the target. I was very pleased to see the figures and your experiment fit the bill. Fascinating stuff. Certainly nothing wrong with the Snider, carried by Colonial forces much longer than British units and wasn't found lacking.
It's very thought provoking to see the Martini just that bit faster than the Snider. One would indeed think of the lever action making really short work of rapid fire~ Excellent video :D
the lever's advantage is when you would have a magazine feed on a single shot the speed issue is nil!!
It was interesting to see the difference for sure.. . There are other aspects that make the Martini better, of course, but this is one that only adds an increment..
Another excellent video! Thank you and I hope we will see more.
Thank you, sir!
Such an underrated channel. You are great, I wish you luck!
That is very kind. Thank you.
Love the foot guards slow marches for the soundtrack. I am just contemplating buying either a snider or a martini at the moment.
Nice!
Entetaining presentation and really informative, keep it up!
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
The snider enfield reminds me of the Springfield trapdoor rifle. Except it actually ejects the round, the breech block opens forward instead of to the side, and the cartridge was slimmer than the snider. 45-70.
Similar era, yes.
And both started out as experimental conversions.
Nearly purchased a Martini-Henri for 750 CND a couple weeks ago....but the store also had an original Lee-Enfield 1918...still, kind of wish I'd picked up the Martini :P
Oh yes... Don't worry, there will be another one... :-)
:D I certainly hope so! I usually collect Civil War era but something about the Snider-Enfield and Martini-Henri really interest me!
Thank you for the upload! Greetings from Brazil!
You are welcome!
Very nice comparison of the two. I have always been a fan of the Snider for even though merely a stop-gap solution, it is still a very reliable design and it saw use in many conflicts around the world. I own two Snider cavalry carbines and love the handiness! Should get my hands on a Martini-Henry and a Snider long rifle at some point.
Yes, do so! You won't regret it! Cheers.
Really interesting!
I would hazard a guess that it wasn't just the "hard facts" that you demonstrated that helped to determine the result. Though it's impossible to do an actual field test with such valuable old collectibles, I suspect in real world conditions, with rain, mud, sand etc... the Snider model would have had some issues. I can see some easy points of ingress for dirt into the firing mechanism, for example. Soldiers certainly would have reported issues back to command, and those would (hopefully) be addressed in the next generation....hopefully.🙂
You got access to some pretty sweet old equipment. Thanks for demonstrating it.
Glad you enjoyed it! Cheers.
Very cool stuff. Can't wait to get my snider.
Nice!
Awesome video yet again! Im loving the editing as well. Snapping your fingers and having a new rifle and equipment was pretty great haha.
Glad you liked it! Cheers.
magnificent
Cheers!
Abysinia in the 1860s was not the last campaign for the Snider. There was another campaign in which the Snider-Enfield was the predominant weapon on the "British" side, and that was the 1885 Canadian Northwest campaign. The "British" side was composed almost entirely of Canadian Militia, who for the most part had only been issued with surplus British Sniders to replace the obsolete breach loaders that most "inactive" militia used for drills. The Snider was therefore an improvement over what most of the troops had been using prior to their activation for this campaign. Only the very elite and most regular-like units (such as the Cavalry and Infantry Schools which trained officer cadets, or the Governor-General's Bodyguard) had Martini-Henrys in Canada at the time. There were no British regular troops involved as such, but the overall commander was British Major General Middleton, and the officer and non-com corps were heavily salted with UK immigrants with recent service. The Sniders were purchased from the British by the Canadian government and were genuinely appreciated I think as an upgrade.
Hi there. The video was made from the standpoint of British Service. The Snider was used by many in other campaigns, the 1885 Rebellion, as you mention, being one of them.... By far the greater user of the Snider was the Indian Army which used the Snider, nearly as long as the Canadians, for differing reasons mind you. There was one other campaign that the Snider was used and that was the Ashanti War of 1873. It's a point of minutia, but the Short Snider was used there exclusively. You are incorrect about the use of the Snider in Canadian service, however.... The Militia had been issued the Snider from the late 1860s... The Militia carried Canadian rifles, not hand-me-downs. I don't know what you are referring to when you say "obsolete breechloaders" as the Militia in whole was never armed with anything 'universal', except the P53, followed by the Snider, in this era..... Sure there were Peabodys and Spencers, etc... but these were never universal in their issue. Edgecome's "Defending the Dominion" is the authority on the subject.
Thanks Rob ! Splendid as allways!
You are welcome!
Excellent as always. It would also be interesting to compere the MH against some of its counterparts, Trapdoor, Mauser, Gras etc.
I agree. I don't have any of those though...
Having shot a Gras, a Martini, a 71/84 Mauser, as well as a Werndl, and 1886 Mannlicher, I can comment that the robustness of the Martini design compensates well for any detriment in speed. The 1886 was finicky, the Gras extractor iffy.
The most interesting to me would be to compare Werndl to Martini and Snider, as the Werndl requires 2 motions in the action like the Snider, but automatically and VERY positively ejects cases.
That said, I bet I could get my Chassepot to nearly 10 rd/min, with treated paper cases. The accuracy, perhaps not so much.
Thanks for another excellent video.
You are welcome. Cheers.
Genuinely interesting, thanks.
Thank you.
As expected, excellent production!
Thank you very much.. :-)
Nice video! Love the format
Cheers!
Top notch video. Well done!
Thanks!
Excellent as always. In your opinion did either rifle get hotter then the other? Witch rifle would have fouled out first and do you have any references of men behind the firing line wiping bores? These things come to me after a hard day on the range with my.50 2 1/2 Sharps, in 90 degree "0" humidity weather experiencing total lube failure.
No, they were pretty much the same kind of temperature. The Martini fires 85gr while the Snider, in this case, fires 62.5. There is more of a difference after 20 rounds, with the Martini being quite hot, but not inoperable, of course.
I just came across your channel, and I say, very well done! Cheers
Glad to hear! Thanks.
What would be interesting would be a side by side comparison between the Snider and the Alyn conversion trapdoor Springfield used by the US Army 20 years longer than the UK kept the Snider. We had some multiple shot rifles, like the Spencer, but kept the single shot trapdoor as the standard until being replaced by the bolt action five round Krag Jorgenson in 1892.
My guess is that there would be very little to compare as far as rate of fire goes... a slight advantage to the Trapdoor for it's extracting system....
Best BF1 graphics evar xD
Rob, an expected conclusion I would say but of course, as with all these sort of tests - nobody is shooting back! Non the less, up to your usual standard by boy, well done.
Thank you Duncan. I can't disagree with you. Just, I found it interesting as a straight across comparison of one aspect of musketry.
I really enjoy your videos, Its apparent you have a real passion for these type of firearms.
*subscribed*
Thank you very much Clay!
I saw in a documentary that the Martini Henry Mk. 4, had pretty savage recoil
No different than any other Martini.... It's hefty but not savage...
excellent content as always!
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks.
Wow. Thank you for Impressive videos. Mr.
P.s. i always wunder. Is that Pattern 44 shirt?
It is a Canadian Army Bush Jacket from the 1950s and 60s