The Mk I Lee-Metford: Firepower - The Spare Magazine
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
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And for further reading on all British Victorian (and earlier) arms stop by the British Militaria Forum and say hello. britishmilitari...
i love that after all these years, this dude is still just marching and playing with milsurp in the woods. legend
Its called a hobby I hope everyone does something as based and enfield-pilled
Great microphone too.
@@Industrialitisgreat video editing, scripting, and researching as well.
also it's enabled him to maintain his manly calves.
I'm a simple man....
I love the idea that, at one point, .303 was considered to not have adequate stopping power.
Well, there are a lot of stories about enemy fighters taking full mag dumps from early smokeless rifles.
@@BrettBaker-uk4tefull mag dumps? Can you cite any?
@skepticalbadger Fought after taking multiple hits anyway. Phillipines we had troops who were hit multiple times before being taken out of the fight. At least one Moro took 3 hits from a Krag, and several hits from .45 revolver ammo before being butt stroked unconscious. Germans and French in Africa reported several times of individuals receiving multiple hits, and kept fighting long after an 11mm would have put them down. Basically dead men walking, they just hadn't quit yet.
People tend to forget just how crappy a projectile RNFMJ really is.
Fully jacketed small calibre high velocity projectile, unless it hits something vital like the heart or the spine, or bone to start it tumbling, it’ll just punch a small hole in and out which, unfortunately, isn’t likely to stop a charging, enraged man in his tracks.
@@mrjocktUtter rubbish.
I would really like to see a history of the issue of the Mustache, the various Marks & sizes. To me it seems the Mustache, Mk I, Large, Twirled was the most widely issued for a decent period of time. It also seems the enlisted and officer ranks were issued different styles of them, perhaps to keep cost down?
😂
I like the style shown at 7:00, where the gentleman on the right has his arranged neatly on top of his head. 😉
Of course it must be noted that officers were required to purchase their own moustache which is why you will often see some quite elaborate designs on show.
Bwahahahaha!
Every time you release a new video of this nature I wish there was a weekly TV show of it. You are fantastic sir and the quality of work you produce is outstanding!
That is very kind of you to say. Thank you.
The Lee-Metford rifle is still carried to this day by the Atholl Highlanders, the only private military unit in Britain, when on parade.
Indeed it is!
Outside the gunroom door of the Army Target Shooting Club clubhouse at Bisley is a rifle rack with a gutter at the bottom. The rack holds up to 8 rifles muzzle down. I was told that a suitably kinked brass funnel neck would fit in the chamber to allow hot water to be poured down the bore to soften the fouling. Very niche, I know but I can't imagine there are any other bits of Lee-Metford specific furniture in the world.
The bent funnel seems to a 20th Century thing.. no mention of such an accessory in the Victorian manuals.
While I do enjoy your black powder content, this is what makes my heart tingle.
Cheers!
Outstanding British army and weapons history videos
Cheers!
It would be nice to see a comparison of charger loading vs half a dozen magazines. I wonder if any reliability issues might crop up with that many magazines. Looking forward to a rundown of .303 ammo thru the years.
Best website for that is sites.google.com/site/britmilammo/home
Interesting. Having heard accounts of how fiddly the later Lee-Enfield magazines are I had assumed that was the reason the whole "issuing multiple magazines" thing had not been done. Fun and informative video Rob! 👍
Cheers!
Well done that man for finding a photograph of a cutaway black powder cartridge. I have seen one before.
Indeed.. very illustrative!
Love your dedication to the subject. 😎🍻👏
Thank you!
The examination of the valise is what really sets this channel apart from the rest. What a great video again well done Rob
Cheers! Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for another interesting presentation on the British army 's long arms 😊
Welcome!
I can't get over how much excitement and passion you put into each video man, thanks for the videos brother!
You are most welcome.
Always so informative, thank you!
Most welcome!
You are a legend sir. Dont ever stop doing these excellent videos.
Thank you!
The Atholl Highlanders the last private army in Europe is equipped with Lee-Metfords . There history is an interesting one which i believe is worth a video.
Indeed they are!
Good stuff brother! Beautiful Rifle.
Thank you!
Good morning from Syracuse NY brother across the Pond my friend
Hello!
Hi my friend
Really interesting. Thank you. I have always been puzzled about the refusal to make the concrptual lesp to msking the Lee a magazine fed gun.
Would you like to prof rod before posting?
Conceptual leap?
Glad you enjoyed it!
Used in the 1904 Younghusband Expedition in Tibet to Lhasa. The Lee Metfords were found to sometimes freeze their bolts closed even without lubrication in the deepest depths of the Tibetan winter. But then engagements got as high as at 19,000 feet which undoubtedly was not within the specification or testing even though they were sent to Canada for winter testing.
I'm sure that any weapon would experience issues is such extremes....
Old soldiers often speak of 'taking their rifle to bed'. Obviously not in barracks.
Is there proof these magazines were reissued for this expedition? What about spare Lee enfield mags?
@@LPWRIZLEREXTRODIARE Lee Metfords we’re certainly used. As to spare magazines I do not know but the this was the Indian Army not the British Army.
Even with the imposed limitations, the use of magazines in this rifle really changes it to something far ahead in time. Imagine the volume of fire produced by men carrying only magazines in suitable pouches instead of packets and single cartridges. Great presentation as always!
Thank you!
your channel is brilliant. Even more informative than documentary in BBC
Very kind. Glad you enjoyed the clip!
Fantastic Rob, always wondered about this.
Thanks Matt!
An interesting comparison between the loading methods. I was surprised the difference between the two wasn’t more extreme. Great content as always!
Cheers!
About damn time! I'd thought you'd never finish those potatoes...
Haha!
Another fantastic and informative video
Cheers!
Your videos are so interesting. No interest in shooting myself but the historical background is fascinating. Great stuff. Keep it up!
Cheers
Great video, and very well told. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
This guy is such a classic I love every single video
Very kind.
@@britishmuzzleloaders keep up the great work. It’s nice to see military history preserved and presented in such a informative way.
Great stuff Rob!
Cheers!
There is a September 27, 2021 video by Ian McCollum of Forgotten Weapons in which he presented the Charger-Loading Lee-Enfield (CLLE) Mk I India Pattern used by the British Indian Army. He briefly explained how the British Indian Army had the most combat experience compared to its European counterpart and thus was an early user of stripper clip charger-loading in the early 1900s. Prior to the fixed charger bridge used by later models of the Lee-Enfield, the CLLE Mk I India Pattern which were converted from existing Long Lees used a sliding charger guide machined onto the bolt head and a separate charger tab rivetted onto the receiver.
Yes, I am familiar with that video... I do not know where he came up with the narrative that the Indian Army was ahead of the British, although I can only assume that there might be a misunderstanding of LoC dates, and the continuum of service rifle patterns... The IP rifle may well have been converted before the MLEs were converted for British Service but that is taking that relationship in isolation... The SMLE was being, or already had been, issued in the British Army to replace the MLE while all this Indian conversion work was taking place.... The Charger Loading LE was a second line, after the fact modification for the Territorial Force as a way to get charger loading into their hands faster than waiting for issues of the SMLE to finish off in the Regular Army. Ian left this part of the story out it would seem.... It's not a comparison of apples and apples... The IP Rifle was, as it was for the Territorial Force in the UK a stop gap weapon to increase their capability before the issue of the SMLE... The Indian Divisions first committed to the Western Front in 1915 were armed with the SMLE.
The Lee Metford always gave the most victorian feeling of rifles. Thoroughly modern but designed the old doctrine in mind
The Magazine Lee Enfield was the same rifle, essentially... They certainly have that Victorian look...
I do so indeed love your videos, Rob!
Thank you!
Another detailed lovely explanation.
Hahaha!
The Beavers: Honey! He's back on the air.
Hello!
Another fantastic video!
Thank you!
I love this channel, you really bring the weapons and the era to life like no one else does. It really provides a flavour of what it must have been like to use these weapons in their heyday. Keep them coming 😊
Cheers!
I love all of his highly educational and entertaining vedios. Brings history alive, BRAVO ZULU to you Sir 💯%👍
Very kind. Thank you.
@britishmuzzleloaders Since fully retiring, I've really embraced flintlock riflry and musketry. And the 18th century, early 19th century impressions surrounding that period of technology.
@@covertops19Z Nice!
Excellent
Thank you V.
I've missed UA-cam because I've just not been feeling like watching vids but I'm ready to get back in the saddle and waste some of my precious time watching the best stuff out there like britishmuzzleloaders !
That is very kind!
Repeating a number of the comments already made, but I hear that helps algorithmically? Regardless, it is always a banner day when a new BML video shows up! Thank you for intelligent and interesting videos, sir.
Most welcome! Cheers!
23:15 The camera was so excited it could not handle it, then fainted. XD
I know!
gent & scholar.....
appreciate your videos immensely🙂🙂🙂
Thank you!
These videos are very under rated
Very kind.
Very Well Made Video Sir 😇👍👌Cheers 🍻
Thank you! Cheers!
Beautiful video as always!
Thank you!
I saw your video after a long time.I really enjoyed watching the video🎉🎉
Great! Thank you!
Love this video. Always found this a interesting topic.
Cheers!
Top notch Rob. The spare magazine concept was just a little ahead of it's time at that time I think. Heavy and expensive magazines that only held an 3 rounds or 2 rounds when compared to Carcano en bloc clips does seem to be a poor choice considering stripper and en bloc loading contemporary rifles. And a lot less consequential to the poor square basher if he looses chargers compared to loosing his 1 spare mag. How days of spud peeling would that earn him 😂😂
Yes, perhaps... In retrospect, I think that the idea of spare magazines was more of a leap in the era of single loading, loose ammunition... Once charger loading became a thing, the spare magazine concept became much less viable...
This guy gets it, excellent research and re-enactment. I have used your material to teach others about historical facts.
Nice! Glad it was useful!
The new camera is awesome.
Not a new one,... it just fell over...
Outstanding history video loved it👍👍
Glad you enjoyed it
Good vid, Rob... As always. I see you are channeling your inner Rhodesian by wearing shorts in the field. Perhaps a bit of RG influence from the late 80s/early 90s.... 😁
Haha!
For the threads working themselves loose: hit the very front thread on the rod with a hammer to slightly dent/bend it. That should give it more friction hand help it stay in. If you overdo the denting, you can always correct it with a file.
Usually I bear down on it... it works,... just didn't this time..
How about a step forward in time to the end of the line? Charger reloads vs. magazine swaps.
Mmmmm,... It has merit, but the two didn't exist together or even near each other... What I try to show in this series is the juxtaposition of neighbouring generations of arms...
An outstanding presentation!
Thank you kindly!
i think you mean 'fuzzy wuzzy logic'. good work!
Cheers!
Not to mention the Canadian rangers were still using the lee enfield until a couple years ago. While they are not a “front line” unit they still play an important role.
Yes,... yes,... Canadian Rangers....
Wonderful Video
Thank you!
Wonderful as always. Thank you kindly once more!
Most welcome!
You are lving the dream. Always love the professionalism of your videos.
Cheers!
As always a damn fine video by a damn fine man! I love to bore my friends with videos like this. Because these are my jam!!!
Well done!
Rob, my wife has been a continuous viewer of the channel for many years. Today, she looked up from her iphone to ask if your walk-in clothing closet is bigger than hers! 😂 We need a peek!
It’s all crammed in a wardrobe and hanging on pegs….
@@britishmuzzleloaders You know we’re just busting balls. I love your commitment and videos! ❤️
A bit of period correct PTFE tape around the coarse thread of the cleaning rod might help to keep it in place.
Good idea!
Top rate production and information as usual. Thank you.
Cheers! Glad you enjoyed it!
03:09 the 'fig. 11' looks suspiciously French.
Great video as always, Sir!
Thank you!
May i say sir that the quality of the moustaches in this video is excellent, But the fine country conquering example that adorns your top lip is truly epic and deserves a channel of its own 😂
Hahaha!
This was amazing, as always! Thank you for the deep history, Sir. The whole kit and caboodle! I'd always seen the kit in pictures, but never knew what all the pouches and straps were all about, but now I do, thanks to you! Love those old rifles too. Never knew they basically rejected box mags as standard issue. That would have been game changing. hWeird.
Cheers! Glad you enjoyed it!
@@britishmuzzleloaders Quite! I do every time. Yours is where I kick back with my favorite beverage and enjoy the history AND the scenery. It's so beautiful where you shoot. I hope those blasted fires stay far away from you.
'...pouch...'. Love it.
?
It was your pronunciation. On a more serious note, do very much like your style of delivery. Your videos are enormously well-researched and you're obviously a subject matter expert. @@britishmuzzleloaders
@@Climpus Ah, I see. Cheers!
Hmmm, 8 round magazine, 10 round package. Is this where the hot dogs count verses bun count potentially got started? 😂
Hahaha!
Thank you sir! Another quality production loaded with information! 😊
Cheers!
flaps, pouches, fore-ends, chains and skin
This video has it all !!
Indeed!
As much as I would like to envision British soldiers changing mags like a boss during the battle of Mons, I cannot help but think that even if the use of spare magazines had been kept through the Boer War, the conclusion of those in power at the time would’ve been that the increased rate of fire did enable troops to suppress enemies during an attack or defense of a position, but the increase in rate of fire over chargers would’ve been perceived as minimal and the cost of producing a full line of spare magazines would’ve been deemed too expensive. And charger loading would still have been adopted in the Post Boer War era.
James Paris Lee’s dream (and to some extent Ferdinand Mannlicher’s as well) of soldiers armed with dozens of spare magazines was just too far ahead of its time given the technology of the era. Lee’s straight pull Navy rifle suffered greatly due to the issues of a small bore (.236 or 6mm caliber) high velocity (somewhere around 2800-3000 fps) cartridge not mixing well with the technology of the era, and was eventually abandoned in favor of adopting similar rifles and cartridges as the US Army. And it wouldn’t be until the 1950s that another group of men, Eugene Stoner and Mikhail Kalashnikov would develop rifles that closely aligned with James Lee’s vision.
Sure enough.. mag changing was the leap it was in the context of hand charged magazines and single loading... once charger loading came in, the advantage was not nearly as pronounced...
Note that during the Boer War, everyone asked for chargers, not magazines. While there is no known link of information, it is clear that it quickly became clear that loading from a clip (charger, as it became known after adoption) is much more efficient than having a second magazine (which would technically seem much easier to do since you don't have need to invent a new rifle and equipment). After emptying the magazines, your rifle still turns into a single shot. While clip ammo comes standard and you don't have to fiddle with replacements, you just plug in the clip and that's it.
Lovely video once again! I'm hoping to put together a set of English import accoutrements (although in black) for my CS infantry impression for the Wilderness Campaign event next year. I'm certainly feeling the imperial influence!
More info on that in Part One and Three of the Kit Series!
very enjoyable
Cheers! Glad you enjoyed it!
@7:00 "Ammunition wastage remained a logistics concern..."
The Maxim and quick fire artillery have entered the chat.
I agree, what a short-sighted decision that delayed the introduction of modern magazine fed rifles for 50 years.
Both welcome additions to the discussions… the fact remains that ammunition expenditure was a constant concern…
I would note that "ammunition expenditure" concerns were generally less about wasted ammunition itself than in supplying enough ammunition to keep the soldiers fighting.
This is especially true in an army who sees most of its combat in far flung frontiers like the British.
It was also why the Americans refused to adopt breech loading cartridge rifles for the infantry in the Civil War. As much industry as the United States brought to bear in the war, they could not have supplied cartridges as fast as the army would have used them.
Also, clips almost certainly supercede detachable magazines as a way of reloading regardless, until semi-automatic and automatic rifles come to be the primary weapons.
@@88porpoise all good points.
Thanks again
Welcome!
Thanks for another great video. Level of research is outstanding. Oh and very entertaining too
Very kind!
Great video with interesting and informative content, thank you
Thank you!
always amazes me
in a good way I hope....
@@britishmuzzleloaders always
Good show sir, damn good show. Carry on.
Thank you!
Mmmm that sweet sweet mustache in the morning.... Othais truely is a lucky man...
Hahaha!
THANK YOU, another GREAT and informative video, with your period correct uniforms and gear helps me understand the history better, I have one question when the Charger Guide was introduced and how was utilized.!.
Cheers! More info in the videos in the Lee Enfield playlist that cover that question!
The British Army has always had issue of using ammunition. Even in the 80s the US army seemed to have an unlimited supply compared to us poor boys , Stores are for Storing I guess
The bin rats would have nothing to do if they issued everything
I think the Vietnam statistic is: 60,000 rounds of rifle fire per one enemy casualty. We pretty much just blast everything.
We issued the Trapdoor Springfield in part.... due to worries about ammunition expenditures. Krag and 1903 magazine cutoff, same thing.
But we eventually stopped acting like poors.😂
The Americans were far worse in the Victorian era due to a combination of small governance and graft. During the push out west the training ammunition allocation for US infantry and cav troopers was effectively one round per man per year. Victorian British soldiers had a positively luxurious allocation for training by comparison. They were given far more in action as well. I dislike it when current American gun culture and nationalism is allowed to taint the actual version of events. 18:00
Always a contentious issue.
Would be awesome if you found a Remington lee 1885 to review. It was used very briefly by the New Zealand volunteer force in 1887 but only 500 were ever ordered and after 6 months they were withdrawn because of poor quality domestically produced ammo.
An interesting rifle for sure!
Hi Rob, thanks for another great video, good research on the spare magazine idea. Your shooting showed how one extra magazine had "obviously" speed up the delivery first 20 rounds,.That might have been enough to win a fire fight early on before dropping down to single shots ? and not massively effect overall ammunition expenditure. As always our British MOD continues to this day to waste far more money on their own appalling incompetence and errors than the troops in the field ever do :( Cheers Chris
Glad you enjoyed it Chris! Cheers.
We're so back
Yup.
Imagine If The Brits Were
Armed With The Lee-Enfield's
At Isandawanda & Roak's Drift,
Durning The Zulu War...
It would be interesting to see.
I've read that manufacturing tolerances of the day were such that you couldn't be sure a magazine would fit a given rifle without some hand fitting. Apparently, this problem persisted even after the adoption of the Lee-Enfield. I don't know if this played any role in the decision to withdraw the second magazine, but it undoubtedly complicated logistics. Each rifle would have to be fitted with two magazines at the factory and if one was lost, it couldn't be replaced by simply going to the company supply sergeant. One can speculate that if the magazines could have been made to reliably work with all rifles, they might have elected to carry several loaded magazines per soldier. Of course, given the nature of military planners, maybe not.
Metal parts were made to be universal ever since the 4th pattern Enfield in the 1860s... My second magazine came from a different continent and clipped right in without any issue... It fell out upon pulling the catch.
Are you just quoting something from a book ? And that's you're sources....
Such excellent content, your attentions to the small details is outstanding. (Off subject) you have a (I believe) and NOE mold that you use to cast projectiles for your modern series of Mk-1 and Mk-2 rifles, I wish I had the mold number because I would get a duplicate mold of the one you have that has 5 cavity's and supply's a greater number of projectiles in a casting session as a real time saver. producing a supply of ammunition in great time savings. anyway. great video, Peace - Dave
The 303 reloading video has that info in it. Cheers.
Great job as always! Have you ever done a video on "collective" - as opposed to "volley" - fire?
Volley Fire is collective fire..... by definition and by the book... 😉.... Have a look at the end of the Metford Firing Exercise Video
A strong wind from the east; Justin.
Mmmmm,.....
Uk military had potential with 2mags that wouldn't be equalled until your brother Canadian designed "the greatest battle implement ever devised"
Aka US RIFLE. 30 CALIBER M 1. or the gun that helped my dad return home from korea. As for this rebel,if i was armed with a lee rifle i would filtch another magazine perhaps making a concealed pouch for it. I enjoyed you video and it answer questions I've always had about lee rifle users. I bet there were extra magazines here and there with the forces of the empire. In the words of president Jefferson "i hold that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing."
Debatable... Charger loading is as quick...
The problem with that idea is that while the Lee-Metford was being finalized, two alternate systems for rapid reloading were invented, Mannlicher's en bloc clips and Mauser's stripper clips. Both are at least comparable to Lee's magazines in reloading speed, while being smaller, lighter, and cheaper than whole magazines. They also make more sense given late 19th century industry and logistical concerns along with the practicalities of bolt action rifles than detachable box magazines do as a method of reloading.
It is only with the adoption of semi-automatic and automatic rifles that larger, detachable magazines really start to make sense over clips in standard issue rifles.
The problem is that there aren't many spare mags there ever were. For 1892-93, for example, for MLM Mk.II, the supply of spare magazines was essentially not listed at all.
From 1900, production increased sharply, to several thousand per year, so perhaps in a later period the magazines reached the front, but this would still be miserably for the several hundred thousand rifles on hand.
great video as always...is the switch from black powder 303 to cordite 303 the reason that later rifles in the lee line dont have cleaning rods?
Neah. We just moved to pull throughs and sectional cleaning rods.
No,.. The Mk I was issued with a long jag for cleaning, which was replaced early on with a pull through,.. then the rod became a "clearing rod"... and was shorter and intended to be put together with a second one to clear stuck casings... then those were withdrawn just before the Boer War as unnecessary...
thank you@@zoiders
thank you@@britishmuzzleloaders
What ever happened to the battle of Inkerman series.
I'm holding my breath for episode 5 and I'm now turning a funny colour...
Well, I have a new addition to the series now, that I must do some filming with... then to finish it off.... sorry about the delay, but I'll get to it!
Its Sir Rob!!
Yes.,
All this concern over "ammunition wastage" by military officers in the late 19th century while 60+ years later after the end of WW2, the Allies crunched the numbers and conclusively discovered that the side that could put more lead down range was the one that was more likely to be successful. Basically vindicating Lee's original intention for his rifle long after his death.
Sure,…. But in the days before mechanized transport, all that lead would have to be carried on men or animals… or by cart if possible…. One can not look at only one aspect at a time… this was long before true “Industrial” warfare….
Yay! New Britishmuzzleloaders video!
Indeed!