I remember there was also another line from the novels that helped explain a bit of the highly stylized weapon combat in Dune: “Gurney says there’s no artistry in killing with the tip, that it should be done with the edge.”
You are quickly gaining on Matt Easton as my favorite HEMA UA-camr. I really love how insightful and well thought-out your scripts are, and that you are straight to the point without bloating videos.
speaking nerdy, there was a flaw in the Holtzman shields, in that firing a laser blaster at it caused an extraordinary explosion of energy. The fighters are not just slowing down to penetrate the shield, they have to reduce the force applied to bypass the resistance threshold.
@@stairwayunicorn4861 yeah! That’s also another motivation which makes sword fighting so prominent in that universe! At least in terms of infantry combat.
My club has been sparring with knives for a while now, and we've found that after a while that a lot of those "fantasy" knife defenses actually do start to work, although it's generally harder to execute them consciously than it is to do anything comparable in a sword fight. I usually can't *decide* I'm going to disarm my opponent, but it happens reasonably often that I'll come out of an exchange holding both my knife and my opponent's, having turned a well-timed block into a disarm as my opponent tries to recover to guard. I would say that the biggest difference between knife and sword fencing is that with knives, you live and die on the quality of your preparations, with far less room for reaction and improvisation. Either you planned and executed your action properly, in which case you usually win, or you didn't in which case you tend to lose. You get room for improvisation mostly when your opponent makes a mistake, and the possibility of doing so really depends on your pre-engagement decision making. I think a lot of people start sparring with knives and conclude that it's impossible to have any kind of fight that isn't just mutual suicide, but that's not true at all. It just takes a bit more practice.
@@MisdirectedSasha oh I agree! But sparring is consensual fighting, like a duel! I would never say that most of does techniques would work while “already being in a fight”, I actually pulled out some decent actions too when I some times practice dagger fighting! But while defending from an unexpected attack with the knife, or generally in unequal terms, they are extremely risky and more close to fantasy. Again, it’s contextual. And I know what you mean ;-)
@@FedericoMalagutti funny thing about life and death situations is that you go into slo mo mode if you're in the right mindset. It's a trip and definitely makes weirdly complex things possible.
@@Pyre001 you know, I’m only partially of this idea, especially because they fight with relatively short weapons. By watching various knife defense, grappling sometimes is detrimental to the objective funny enough! Because it’s extremely hard to control the opponent from stabbing at close range. There would be more knife defense techniques and “parries” in a sense of blocking the opponent arm to block the incoming strike. With longer weapons there would be more grappling but I suspect most people would probably carry a backup dagger/knife, so it would be risky to a degree. So I would say, yes in some cases, because in others the grappling would simply give a delayed time to the opponent to drive in the blade slowly.
As we've already seen blunt-force impact goes through and can knock people down it's always baffled me why guards don't simply use big physical shields in addition to their Holtzman shields. They just pin, immobilize and stab stab stab at their required velocity leisure. Like legionaries. Also considering 90% of the current combat we see is predicated on draw-cuts you would think nearly all the blades would be double-edged.
If the speed of the object is what triggers the shield, wouldn't that mean relative speed can be used against it? When faced against a weapon that has been slowed enough to penetrate one's shield, couldn't a counter to this be to suddenly move one's body toward the enemy's weapon so that the relative speed created activates the shield?
@@maaderllin theoretically speaking I would say yes. It should be considered wether moving forward brings more pros or cons all considered! We should ask a Sardauker trainer XD
Modern fencing would benefit from these shields. I tell the young ones to think of priority as dawning a shield until they or their opponent does something to lose the shield. Knights parry to gain the shield, rogues beat attack, and hussars attack first to gain the shield. We are a modern sabre fencing club but look to hema to employ fun learning games and get out of our own heads. Nice video
@@417hemaspringfieldmo yep, I prefer the old ones to be onest. This is honestly the “practical part” they messed up the most. Not every time of course, but for instance, the Fremen knives yells “self inflicted hand injuries by stabbing”.
I got disapointed when I red the book and found out the training scene was done whith rapiers. I want to see space rapiers on screen... What do you think about that part of the book? did you read it?
@@malahamavet I would in all honesty liked to see that stuff on the screen too, but 21st century wester culture is a “tribal culture” unluckily for me XD as I prefer a different aesthetic. Yeah anyway I enjoyed the first book.
The context really is everything there are a lot of knife attacks in Japanese martial arts that seem over commited and unrealistic such as bracing the knife against your hip and literally running full bore into you're enemy like a ship ramming. seems dumb until you take into account that these attacks we're ment to be against armored enemies when in armor so doing slashing and quick stabbing attacks like say in a Philippino style wouldn't be as practical in that context
From a HEMA perspective, I wished that the shields would have protected against bullet level speeds to remove firearms, have the flawed that would detonate both the target and the shooter in case of laser beam to remove energy weapons, but not react to blade level tip speeds even for a longsword. This way we would have got sideswords and bucklers, rapiers and daggers, longswords and sabres into the mix of the fighting. Oh yea, and you can't wear too much metal or some types of hard substances as it interferes with the shield... just to remove pesky armours. 😅
i have only one problem with the fights. They use always knifes or shortswords. and most fights are close combat based with kicks and punches instead of using the weapon. did you see the Long Swords of the Sardukar in Dune II? i was thinking hell yeah. But we saw no action with Longswords.
@@OvermasterJ yes, same for me. The answers are probably related to what who made the combat in the first place liked as a martial art. They used mostly Filippino Martial Arts to structure the styles, and while this was instrumental to a degree in terms of creating the “1-2-3-4” style of counter which beats counter which beat counter, it’s aesthetically, to me, kind of meh. Plus the weapons such as Longswords and Rapiers (of course, most probably reinvented in new shapes) should have been there. Anyway, besides the “aesthetic” of the fight, they did a great job conceptually speaking.
@@FedericoMalagutti tru tru. But why they bring the Longsword in but dont show them in fight. i cant get over this. you have this cool Sardukar LS formation and they march to defend the emperor and yeah.......... we see nothing. and the Fremen have no shields and shorter weapons, it should be truly epic to defend that breach in real
I think the lack of longswords has to do with speed again. Rotational speed can go up significantly with a longer lever. So why even bother with a long blade when you can only work slow with it and it gives your opponent more to control at a slower speed?
@@stanleypeters5383 …This script is mine. Every video is scripted by me, and I bet there are enough grammar mistakes which I’m not skilled enough in English to correct to prove it. Anyway, why are you assuming this, out of curiosity?
I remember there was also another line from the novels that helped explain a bit of the highly stylized weapon combat in Dune: “Gurney says there’s no artistry in killing with the tip, that it should be done with the edge.”
@@lokuzt makes sense, the edge is a worst force multiplier than the tip, maybe it helps to pass the shield more easily.
You are quickly gaining on Matt Easton as my favorite HEMA UA-camr. I really love how insightful and well thought-out your scripts are, and that you are straight to the point without bloating videos.
@@MasoTrumoi thanks for your kind words!
Slow your roll. He hasn't fought with Shad yet.
speaking nerdy, there was a flaw in the Holtzman shields, in that firing a laser blaster at it caused an extraordinary explosion of energy. The fighters are not just slowing down to penetrate the shield, they have to reduce the force applied to bypass the resistance threshold.
@@stairwayunicorn4861 yeah! That’s also another motivation which makes sword fighting so prominent in that universe! At least in terms of infantry combat.
My club has been sparring with knives for a while now, and we've found that after a while that a lot of those "fantasy" knife defenses actually do start to work, although it's generally harder to execute them consciously than it is to do anything comparable in a sword fight. I usually can't *decide* I'm going to disarm my opponent, but it happens reasonably often that I'll come out of an exchange holding both my knife and my opponent's, having turned a well-timed block into a disarm as my opponent tries to recover to guard.
I would say that the biggest difference between knife and sword fencing is that with knives, you live and die on the quality of your preparations, with far less room for reaction and improvisation. Either you planned and executed your action properly, in which case you usually win, or you didn't in which case you tend to lose. You get room for improvisation mostly when your opponent makes a mistake, and the possibility of doing so really depends on your pre-engagement decision making.
I think a lot of people start sparring with knives and conclude that it's impossible to have any kind of fight that isn't just mutual suicide, but that's not true at all. It just takes a bit more practice.
@@MisdirectedSasha oh I agree! But sparring is consensual fighting, like a duel! I would never say that most of does techniques would work while “already being in a fight”, I actually pulled out some decent actions too when I some times practice dagger fighting!
But while defending from an unexpected attack with the knife, or generally in unequal terms, they are extremely risky and more close to fantasy.
Again, it’s contextual. And I know what you mean ;-)
@@FedericoMalagutti funny thing about life and death situations is that you go into slo mo mode if you're in the right mindset. It's a trip and definitely makes weirdly complex things possible.
Actually, every fight I'm in is a consensual fight.
So glad you covered this, I would literally cry if they ever used bucklers in dune combat
@@samduffy7628 it would have been cool to see more long blades but, well, it was anyway cool enough!
Very nice to address something in pop culture.
Balintanwak Kali is combat art used in the movies
@@jacobharris954 yeah, I know
You'd think that with Holtzman shields, there would be more grappling...
@@Pyre001 you know, I’m only partially of this idea, especially because they fight with relatively short weapons. By watching various knife defense, grappling sometimes is detrimental to the objective funny enough! Because it’s extremely hard to control the opponent from stabbing at close range.
There would be more knife defense techniques and “parries” in a sense of blocking the opponent arm to block the incoming strike.
With longer weapons there would be more grappling but I suspect most people would probably carry a backup dagger/knife, so it would be risky to a degree.
So I would say, yes in some cases, because in others the grappling would simply give a delayed time to the opponent to drive in the blade slowly.
As we've already seen blunt-force impact goes through and can knock people down it's always baffled me why guards don't simply use big physical shields in addition to their Holtzman shields. They just pin, immobilize and stab stab stab at their required velocity leisure. Like legionaries. Also considering 90% of the current combat we see is predicated on draw-cuts you would think nearly all the blades would be double-edged.
When it comes in a sword/fencing video contents “Does it work in the street?” The answer is “No. Unlike your momma!” 😂
@@Timeblade_Guild OMG XDXDXd
@@FedericoMalagutti 😂
If the speed of the object is what triggers the shield, wouldn't that mean relative speed can be used against it?
When faced against a weapon that has been slowed enough to penetrate one's shield, couldn't a counter to this be to suddenly move one's body toward the enemy's weapon so that the relative speed created activates the shield?
@@maaderllin theoretically speaking I would say yes. It should be considered wether moving forward brings more pros or cons all considered! We should ask a Sardauker trainer XD
Modern fencing would benefit from these shields. I tell the young ones to think of priority as dawning a shield until they or their opponent does something to lose the shield. Knights parry to gain the shield, rogues beat attack, and hussars attack first to gain the shield. We are a modern sabre fencing club but look to hema to employ fun learning games and get out of our own heads. Nice video
Thank! Nice attitude by the way!
Have you notice the difference of the modeling of the knifes from the 1980s movie and the more recent ones?
@@417hemaspringfieldmo yep, I prefer the old ones to be onest. This is honestly the “practical part” they messed up the most. Not every time of course, but for instance, the Fremen knives yells “self inflicted hand injuries by stabbing”.
@@FedericoMalagutti Reminded me of the original source of Karambit knives
I got disapointed when I red the book and found out the training scene was done whith rapiers. I want to see space rapiers on screen...
What do you think about that part of the book? did you read it?
@@malahamavet I would in all honesty liked to see that stuff on the screen too, but 21st century wester culture is a “tribal culture” unluckily for me XD as I prefer a different aesthetic. Yeah anyway I enjoyed the first book.
The context really is everything there are a lot of knife attacks in Japanese martial arts that seem over commited and unrealistic such as bracing the knife against your hip and literally running full bore into you're enemy like a ship ramming. seems dumb until you take into account that these attacks we're ment to be against armored enemies when in armor so doing slashing and quick stabbing attacks like say in a Philippino style wouldn't be as practical in that context
From a HEMA perspective, I wished that the shields would have protected against bullet level speeds to remove firearms, have the flawed that would detonate both the target and the shooter in case of laser beam to remove energy weapons, but not react to blade level tip speeds even for a longsword. This way we would have got sideswords and bucklers, rapiers and daggers, longswords and sabres into the mix of the fighting. Oh yea, and you can't wear too much metal or some types of hard substances as it interferes with the shield... just to remove pesky armours. 😅
The Dune movies are great
@@theboringbiker agreed!
Flamethrower.....
i have only one problem with the fights. They use always knifes or shortswords. and most fights are close combat based with kicks and punches instead of using the weapon. did you see the Long Swords of the Sardukar in Dune II? i was thinking hell yeah.
But we saw no action with Longswords.
@@OvermasterJ yes, same for me. The answers are probably related to what who made the combat in the first place liked as a martial art. They used mostly Filippino Martial Arts to structure the styles, and while this was instrumental to a degree in terms of creating the “1-2-3-4” style of counter which beats counter which beat counter, it’s aesthetically, to me, kind of meh. Plus the weapons such as Longswords and Rapiers (of course, most probably reinvented in new shapes) should have been there.
Anyway, besides the “aesthetic” of the fight, they did a great job conceptually speaking.
@@FedericoMalagutti tru tru. But why they bring the Longsword in but dont show them in fight. i cant get over this. you have this cool Sardukar LS formation and they march to defend the emperor and yeah.......... we see nothing. and the Fremen have no shields and shorter weapons, it should be truly epic to defend that breach in real
@@OvermasterJ Agreed
I think the lack of longswords has to do with speed again. Rotational speed can go up significantly with a longer lever. So why even bother with a long blade when you can only work slow with it and it gives your opponent more to control at a slower speed?
@ true
Kali martial arts
@@bellzeppelin6913 I know
Your scripting needs to be redone. Don't use the Artificial Intelligence.
@@stanleypeters5383 …This script is mine. Every video is scripted by me, and I bet there are enough grammar mistakes which I’m not skilled enough in English to correct to prove it. Anyway, why are you assuming this, out of curiosity?