Why the American Church is in Crisis - Skye Jethani
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- Опубліковано 30 чер 2024
- The American church is in crisis. After numerous scandals, distrust of the church is at an all-time high.
In this podcast, author Skye Jethani looks at what the Bible really says about church-and how errant beliefs have led to the church’s current crisis.
This program was also released as an audio podcast and transcript on July 1, 2024:
julieroys.com/podcast/why-the...
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How often, over 44 years since I began to follow Christ, have I longed for a pastoral pastor. We have had a few, for sure, but the majority are teachers or executives.
Great statement, as it's sad but true. Yes, where are the servants?
Worship has become a performance on stage with flashing lights and the audience are spectators instead of participants.
I had to wear my sunglasses and ear plugs last service I attended😅.
@sallybyrd3712 ~ it sounds like you’re describing Contemporary Large Church worship Vs let’s say a quieter, liturgical style
Skinny jeans and fog machines
This is such a good listen and covers many of the very things I've pondered in my own heart over the years. We've grown grieved by the direction of so many churches my family attended, so we left evangelicalism and dug into confessional Lutheranism; we long for a reverential, liturgical worship experience without smoke machines, coffee bars and disco balls. God help us stay tethered to Christ alone through His word!
My sweet grandfather warned the SBC, decades ago, they were headed into a dangerous direction and there would eventually be tragic results. He also warned about this “prestige of pastors” and those getting their “Dr” for the purpose of being admired and raising their “influence” before the SBC popular circles.
He warned against creating a corporate style church.
He was 96 when he passed away. That was over a decade ago, but he never stopped teaching and preaching. Serving the Lord and bringing the Good news to whomever he was able to reach. I am so grateful he and grandmother have long been in Glory! They haven’t had to witness the outcome of making pastors celebrities and churches into corporate dynasties.
I had a grandfather who sounded the alarm years ago as well. He was so grieved by what he saw happening within The Church.
That's the one reason I'm glad my grandparents had to pass- so they didn't have to see what's become of the world & the church.
I haven't belonged to church since 2009. Abuse was happening in my then marriage and there was no support. Only guilt, shame, and reminders to be a "submissive" wife. I'm still heartbroken that many churches have gone this way. 😢
My now husband and I have been deconstructing which has been an incredible ride, breaking bad programming, but we love God more than we ever have.
Yes, I believe Home Churches are best!
Thank you for this enlightening interview!
I believe more people would upvote your post if not for the word “deconstructing.” I’m pretty sure I know what you mean but a lot of people use the word to signify “leaving the faith.”
@@christychapin8357 I agree probably a more appropriate term would be reconstructing her faith. 😊
@@selahchunem8447 Exactly! :)
This was so rich! Thank you for expressing what so many of us feel. Pressing on and seeking the genuine…
The 501(c)3..non-profit tax status has made church a business..and fundamentally has to operate in accordance with the federal government definition of “church”.
Yes, the 501c3 government religious organizations masquerade as the Church. Their job is to keep the sheeple in support of government wars and the destruction of Biblical patriarchy for the benefit of corporate commerce. Pastors are the primary local agents for the government religious organizations. There is no Pastor led gatherings in the NT.
great point!
I believe that a church can simply be a church without being an official 501c3 and meeting the requirements of a 501c3. That is probably better addressed by someone with a role in a church that understands it better than I, but I'm pretty sure that most churches are not registered 501c3s.
@bobcampbell2074 In the United States, most churches and religious organizations are classified as 501(c)(3) nonprofit entities. This designation under the Internal Revenue Code provides them with tax-exempt status, allowing them to receive tax-deductible donations and other benefits, provided they meet certain requirements such as not engaging in substantial lobbying or political activities. This status is common among churches and religious organizations that operate for religious, charitable, educational, or other exempt purposes recognized by the IRS.
How I appreciate the discussion of the Lord’s Table. Thank you, Skye and Julie for exploring many dimensions of church Life. Your words are compassionate rather than cynical. “It’s about His kingdom, His table, His family.”
❤
This conversation makes me glad for the Westminster Shorter Catechism and the Book of Church order
Absolutely spot on!! And not just America but UK too!!
I had the same thought, it’s not just the pastor or leaders fault. The congregation is feeding it because they like the way it feels. That they heard a good message that makes them a better person. Has nothing to do with Christianity most of the time.
Excellent discussion. Thank you. A good book to read is Pagan Christianity.
Should continue this conversation and have detailed discussion of the points covered or include even more points.
Also, there are more men going into church ministry, going behind the pulpit for all of the wrong reasons.
God did not call them.
They don't want a job.
They are there for the money
Controlling people
Writing book after book
They were not called by the Lord to preach.
Ues, of course, many are called to preach, but many are there in their flesh.
Such great insights and wisdom. Thank you for doing this interview.
So good. Needs to be said. I miss the days when, as my dad always said, you could get married and buried in the church. Now we have to go outside the church to rent a place to do both.
Skywalker bookends! 😅Love Skye! Learned of him from my pastor who passed me his book, With: Reimagining the Way You Relate To God. Excellent read. Dude speaks truth, church is a biz..
This is excellent, insightful, and refreshing to hear. Thanks!
Your Communion discussion reminded me of Idina Menzel's song that describes the Lord's Table so well. "At this table, everyone is welcome. At this table, everyone is seen, At this table, everybody matters. No one falls between. At this table, you can say whatever. At this table, you can speak your mind. At this table, everything's forgiven. There's enough for everyone. So come as you are. Remember the door is always open. Yes, come as you are. The perfect gift that you can bring is your heart. So come, come as you are...."
I think many churches would be threatened by these words, but how wonderful would it be to hear these before you eat together?
Love this. I’m in a home church as well
I love this interview! So encouraging to listen to a brother and sister share the same heart for the church 🔥🙏✝️💯🙌
No, I don’t think we are reconciled to others first before we are reconciled to God, but we are reconciled to others because God has reconciled us to himself. In the same way, we forgive others because he has forgiven us.
Awesome discussion.
What an excellent conversation! Skye's exegesis of Jesus washing the feet of the apostles in John's gospel was particularly insightful.
Great dialogue!
Great discussion! I would love to hear more about house church. My husband and I have left the church after 30 years due to abuse. We want fellowship but aren’t ready to go back to regular church. We are definitely church refugees.
There were house churches back when. Seek the face of Father as to what He would have you do. Holy Spirit will lead, guide and direct you the how, when, where, how. It must be done His way only. Soon the churches will be abandoned due to the unholy way they have been operating...leading the sheep astray, falsely spitting out prophetic words, abuse, money hungry pigs. Father is cleaning house. Don't concern yourself about the sinners. Father knows where they are and will send them to where they need to be. You must rely on and ask Holy Spirit His way of doing things. There has to be a limit on the number of families who attend, how frequently, and let Him have His way, His agenda. There are no leaders except Jesus and Holy Spirit. Tithes and offerings are to be collected to provide help to those in need, as He kwads and guides. Each one is totally responsible to Father God. Like in the book of Acts, they were all in unity and one accord. No discord is permitted at all. All are in unity or not at all. Let Holy Spirit lead and guide each meeting. He will be in control...100% of the time. Prayer & praise are top priority each time. Pray as intercession warriors. Go into the community witnessing to the lost and dying. Point the way to the cross. Spread the GOOD News.
Let Him have His way 100%.
Your covering is Father God Himself. Each one is equally responsible to Father. Soon there will be no big church buildings, but house churches..small, intimate groups of followers of Jesus...PERIOD....NOTHING FANCY NOR COMPLICATED, JUST PLAIN AND HUMBLE.
BLESSINGS, PEACE AND JOY BE UNTO YOU.
Great information! I’ve been frustrated with the American church for a while, the celebrity pastor syndrome. I just want Jesus and His word! Thanks to you both putting things in perspective. I’ve just subscribed…
Awesome podcast❤
This is so much like what happened during the Jesus Movement in Southern California, where home Bible studies started among college, high school, or "hippies" (or "Small Groups" or "House Churches" as code names developed). In the Jesus Movement any contemporary culture aspects, like guitars, singing Bible choruses, relaxed dress codes were not welcome or opposed by established churches, so these young people were forced out, and started their own home Bible studies as a result.
Churches should be an Organism not an Organization……alive, growing in Christ.
Thank you For this deep ❤️ heart messaged .I am Church refugee ..from Cape Town South Africa .. really enjoyed the indepth messaged taking some nuggets from itBlessings on the true servant leaders in Building Gods Kingdom
Appreciate your unique ministry and strength of bringing issues out into the light!
The modern church looks and acts nothing like the church of the 1st century. I sure wish small communities of believers would go back to the original church community design, it was life changing for those involved.
This interview is very helpful for Christians who love the church. It's always enlightening to hear authors flesh out their thoughts.
I want to reinforce the misguided idea that human leadership in local churches attempt to pre-determine their membership. The Holy Spirit determines who will be a part of every local body. Julie and Skye brought out the sublime truth that biblical Christianity is based on relationships with other saints, contrasted with American Christianity which is focused on individuality sadly reflecting the American culture.
When local church leadership focuses on God's Word, the Holy Spirit brings together the body of Christ, brings health to His body, relationships are formed, the body is equipped to do the work of the ministry, and sinners are born again...
• “Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.” (1Tim 4:13)
• "But now God has set [tithemi] the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased [thelo]." (1Cor 12:18)
• “But God composed [sunkerannumi=mix, blend together] the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.” (1Cor 12:24,25)
• "And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved." (Acts 2:47)
• "Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)
• “Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous” (1Pet 3:8)
• “For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.” (Gal 5:13)
• “And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.” (Eph 4:32; Col 3:13)
It’s precisely because the distinction between law and gospel is not heard and therefore the promise is not delivered.
I would love to go a house church, but don't know how to find any close to where I live. Many of the things discussed in these podcasts, like help and resources for different things, are simply not available to people like me.
House churches are not the answer. They grow, there's no oversight and they tend to have a "pet" issue or doctrine that they feel they know best.
American society is in crisis with people at odds over very different visions of the future. Churches in America are very much a reflection of this crisis. Add to that a substantial number of people who put political identity first, and then seek out a church that reinforces their political beliefs. Back in 1963 when Martin Luther King Jr said _It is appalling that the most segregated hour of Christian America is eleven o'clock on Sunday morning._ he was talking about race, but today we can add the additional layer of politics.
So true, the church getting so involved in politics has really hurt the church
Would never have guessed that UA-camrs Skye and Julie attended the same house-church.
This is what i know Holy Spirit is telling me.
Help us all Lord. You so love your body, direct us Lord.
TY! As a contemporary church refugee….This has quickly become my Fav podcast… …Julie Roy’s!!! ( BTW…I’m a life-long V Van Gogh admirer)!
So then read the breakthrough masterpiece novel “Where Do We Go Now, LORD? - Burke.” It’s plains much. Very much. Enjoy!
Yall so fortunate to have a viable house church. I'd love to join one. These industrial churches (or wannabe IC) are not healthy at all. JOIN!! And help me build my empire! And, you MUST be a part of a local church. Sad.
I left the SBC for an Anglican church. I think Evangelical Christianity has failed in America because of 501 (c) 3. It has muzzled pastors and turned the churches into glorified coffeehouses and bookstores, and conference centers. Faithful to orthodoxy liturgical churches are experiencing growth, while the other denominations who have compromised with the world are declining. I have fallen in love with the Anglican liturgy, the Book of Common Prayer, the Daily Office. I geel more connected to the faith and I feel I am living a more disciplined , faithful life for Christ. It has helped me have a focus on the holiness of Hod, snd developing my holiness.
I think the real problem is that people are actually reading the Bible for themselves rather than relying only on what pastors tell them is in the Bible.
Problem or revelation?
Edit: I had written more, there's SO MUCH to say, sometimes waiting is better... there's businesses within the business of churchianity... 😥 🙏🏼🕊🌾 James 4:7-12
Edit: 07.02.24 And I'm grateful for all that I've learned about LOVE thru forgiveness and compassion... for others, for myself... and grateful for many ministries that I've gleaned from. Each one. Mostly though, I'm grateful and thankful for ABBA'S hand over the circumstances in my life.
If you attend a house church, would you say it is part of the small church movement? How do you view: communion, membership, and the role of Bible teacher or teaching elder? How do you determine who gains admission into your church? Do you send out ministries, missionaries? How do you do church discipline?
@johntobey1558 How did the very first church as recorded in the book of Acts do all these things?
@@tomy8339It doesn’t have a full description of the very first church. Descriptions of practices in the Nee Testament are scattered across various church location depending on the letter recipient. The Didache is probably the closest early Christian manual we have.
@@Window4503 So you're telling me Acts is deficient in describing all the essential elements of the early church? Are you serious?
In Acts and the rest of the NT, you have converts meeting in houses. You have a description of elders, leaders, deacons and elders. You have a description of corporate communion, you have fellowship, you have disciplinary instructions, you have mission actions, you have collections taken up for distribution to poorer churches. You have instructions about the gifts of the Spirit, tongues and prophecy, you have instructions about the roles of men and women in the church. You have instructions about praise and worship in churches and you have instructions and encouragement about encouraging, praying, building up, edifying and bearing each others burdens.
You have absolutely every element of a full operating church in every sense. Go back and read the entire NT a few times and take note of every instance the operation and instruction of the local church is mentioned. Everything is there, nothing is deficient.
I can't believe you are arguing against and calling deficient the church model of the Bible and in defence of the modern, institutional church system. You've got it backwards. I'm not saying an institutional church is necessarily wrong. What I'm saying is that there is nothing wrong at all and entirely scriptural the house church as recorded in the NT. Calling it deficient is speaking against what God established as described in the scriptures.
We do not live in the time of the book of acts.@tomy8339
He says things that I've often thought, such as mega churches are not churches, nor their pastors really pastors. They are VLMs but not churches.
1.Though some of this had good points, or at least points for discussion it left unanswered?s.
I understand serving at Church and I am happy to. I also think I can expect things from Churches. Im going to look for where he says that.
2. At approx 25:17 and 40:12 n t video. I'm not getting it. So am I wrong for wanting a Church to hav good preaching, non authoritarian, non racist incl towards whites, non clicqueish and a few other things? I am not ashamed if u call that consumerism. I'm not charging. I'm not gullible where I give my time and money.
And Church can b changing and improving on an ongoing basis.
Julie, someone else told me of you when they heard my story about my husband Bevan cloete.. and Kayla Gabbard’s ministry. Would love for you to contact me to give you more info.
At 49:04 - I think what is being described here while real is a second order effect not the intention. Or at least not the original intention. We have to go back in the chain of events. In the 1950s before the charismatic renewal churches were dead and intellectual. Unless you're Pentecostal you had never experience the tangible presence of God in a church service. So as the Jesus revolution came on and the charismatic renewal came on people started having this experience. Having this experience then started drawing people and then it became part of the pattern. So my point is is just not to confuse motives with ends. Now into the '90s 2000s was there perhaps in some places more of a planned thing when it comes to worship and these types of things? Maybe definitely in some minority of places. But let's also not throw the baby out with a bath water. It's good to know that there are mountaintops. Experience of mountaintops gives you the ability to navigate valleys better. If all you think there is is a valley that's pretty bleak.
What is meant by 'Christ:s table'? Communion? If that is the definition most churches celebrate communion...not sure what the point is here...
Skye why haven’t you watched your sister’s podcast??
This is not the first time this kind of thing has happened. Decades ago watchmen nee in China wrote many books one being the normal Christian life. He was Orthodox and right on the money and so much of his teaching. He had a disciple named Witness Lee and when Watchman nee died witness Lee took over and then the ministry took a left turn and even though witness Lee was championing a cause to get rid of their brand of church industrial complex he started the local church wanting to get back to the basics like you guys are talking about your house churches. But it wasn't long before this local church became a cliche. The elders would only wear white short sleeve dress shirts and if you weren't wearing one of those you were just not spiritual. Back in the early 70s I went and visited several of the local churches and there was much cultic vibe to it . They would chant certain phrases like O Lord Jesus we will not be set free and others like that. I recognize right away that this was not aligned with a New Testament church even though that's the very thing they were trying to emulate. It's a sad thing but somehow sin infects everything that is attempted in the name of Jesus. Fallen humans will continue to fail because of that even with our best most spiritual intentions.
Sounds like a case of “incurvatus in se,” a spiritual tendency that all humans are prone to: fascination and admiration (literally the incurvature) of self, in most church cases, under the guise of whatever originally noble goals we once had. The Lutheran denomination has this same problem right now. Traditions and doctrines that were once used to point to Jesus and merely give order to a service are now becoming badges of honor, and a Lutheran purism movement is arising.
Toy
gifted to you, early years,
made you mind, and eased your fears,
taught you how to bow and pray,
hold it tightly, be okay,
I won’t take your toy away,
don’t you think, to give it up,
without it, you’re not enough,
gives you hope and strength each day,
so I won’t take your toy away,
yours is right, this much is true,
for millions out there, have one too,
though not the same, to hold and feel,
with different faces, weights and build,
you just smile, you know the deal,
for unlike theirs, your toy is real,
talking to it, every night,
in your bed, by your side,
there against you when you wake,
never take your toy away,
though you’re older, ain’t it strange,
knowledge comes but you remain,
burdened by religious chains,
yet never care to prove a thing,
about that toy to which you cling,
but don’t mind me, for it’s okay,
will never take your toy away,
I’ve been around, and seen enough,
learned that some things, mean too much,
and faith stomps out, the want to know,
like a favorite toy, you won’t let go,
still I’m here, got your back,
with my life, be sure of that,
stand beside you, right or wrong,
however hard, however long,
always here to ease your hurt,
when despite your faith, that toy don’t work,
at this point, it’s safe to say,
no one can take, your toy away…
“Biblically speaking”, many should not consider themselves as a believer nor these churches a church (called-out ones). Therefore the Bible doesn’t apply to many of them. :)
Death to self; appointed by the Lord; led by the Spirit; disciplined by the Father should our concerns and topics. Rather than trying to cure the incurable and revive what is spiritually dead from the start.
If people worship the Lord and then live a double life that's not the fault of worship or the Lord. Lots of people have life changing encounters with God during worship. It's Biblical. Don't get cynical!!!
No titles, no more!
The love of money is the root of all evil.
Jesus owned nothing and worked as a carpenter before His public ministry.
Paul worked with his hands. Were they trying to tell us something?
The Bible explicitly warns about greed and self indulgence. Can a Pastor be overpaid ?
Today, if you don't own a private jet, you are not a Christian pastor. You are not successful. The root of all evil is in the churches today and it is not going anywhere. Sadly most will be searching for wealth because of the gospel of prosperity.
The Sermon based church is a problem. The word isn't in the Bible.
There should not be a dynamic that has an uninterruptible leader in front of a large church body. This gives rise to charismatic speakers and a stage oriented faith.
I think Skye's definition of a church should end with, "...all of whom are waiting for the imminent coming of the Kingdom of God." John the Baptist and Jesus preached about the Age to Come, when Yahweh or His Messiah would reign in Jerusalem and all the other nations would submit to the leadership of that city. What happened to THAT expectation? Paul thought the whole civilized world might be transformed after a period of tribulation like the troubles previously endured under Antiochus IV. He said his flock should put their personal affairs on hold and be ready for the big administrative change. What happened to THAT expectation? For a couple of centuries, many American Christians have presumed that Jesus will come to America when he returns, according to some dispensationalist schedule. What happened to THAT expectation? Something isn't right with this picture.
The problem is that we have been duped by Satan into confusing Jesus as having any power as God. This is a lie. Therefore Satan becomes our God, because we follow lies. God Alone, the Creator alone, controls every atom as He alone is All Mighty. The Creator alone has all of the might. All power God does everything!!! Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, and Buddha have never had the power to save you, guide you, protect you or forgive you . Worship Him alone, ALONE, otherwise it is idolatry, which is the greatest blasphemy. Peace, and may god guide us.
So, therefore, you are not a Christian.
Don't get what yr saying. Jesus is God. He is infinite. Or do u not believe n the Trinity?
@@jilla2641 Hi and peace. It would be nice to have a conversation about this. Consider deeply, this verse: John 10:17. Jesus said to her, ‘Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”’ 1st, Notice how this verse shows that Jesus is not God's only son. "My Father and Your Father". If Jesus's followers, (brothers) have the same Father, then you must challenge the only son theory. 2nd, and more importantly, Jesus says "my God" and your God. Clearly, to be a monotheist, it is impossible for God to have a God. Jesus clearly did not see himself as God here. This is supposedly after he died, and so this would mean that he never did why he was alive also. Jesus strictly taught to worship "our father who art in heaven". Jesus was a monotheist, and worshipped God alone. He said in Matthew 22:37
Jesus says, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind". There is not any room for loving someone more than God, the Creator. See, the point is that Satan is very good at tricking humans into putting a god beside God. Having Jesus as anywhere close in power and stature to God is a great disrespect to God's incredible greatness. God alone controls every atom, including the body and soul of Jesus. Jesus was God's righteous servant. We love him, and all the other messengers for that. But we love God Almighty, the Creator/ Sustainer the most. That is the requirement to be a monotheist. God is so far above his creation. We are not even detectable in comparison with God's vastness. Jesus did not teach the trinity. This is speculation by greek speaking people, who lived in an intricately polytheistic environment. They did not understand what it meant to be monotheistic. Otherwise, they would never be attracted to a trinity conclusion. Even many early Christians rejected this blasphemy. You may not like this, but it is all true, God willing. Only God can guide. And we are seeking God's forgiveness, not Jesus's forgiveness. Information from God did not stop with Jesus. It continues and we know so much more today, about what God's message was and is. (Submission.org)
God's system and message never changed. Essentially it is this: You must worship God alone, believe in the hereafter and live a righteous life to be forgiven, to achieve God's perfect protection and to make it to heaven. Peace.
You don't need an hour to explain this. The root cause is found in 2 Chronicles 7:14. Yahweh is speaking to THE Church, Yeshua's Bride, turn from your wicked ways. Simple, unrepentant evil in His church. Humble, turn, repent and return to the Lord. He may just relent.
If you read the church fathers, they are closer to Catholic than a house church. I left the evangelical church and reverted back to Catholicism and my husband just became Catholic after finding out the Church fathers were closer to Catholicism.
With Mary and all saints? I don't think so. That's a lie.
This is a clique.
Ex charismatic for 25 years here.We went to our charismatic church and read from the church Fathers, the first church really was catholic.We joined for all the reasons your addressing.There is a church system that has been functioning for Two Thousand years. Its had its problems but none of the ones your discussing( as in trying to figure out what a church is suppose to be).We don't go to church based on the music or pastor but only for Jesus. Yes, it is sacred and holy and hasn't changed. We do have communion every Sunday.Protestant means men protested against the church. Thats why charismatics don't know what a church is. Yes, communion is the body of Christ and the bread becomes Jesus. In mens protest they changed it, its just a reminder. After Luther,men decided they could remake it into what ever they wanted , ergo a slippery slope into charasmania. Your getting so close to truth, Catholic truth.
Are you trying to claim Catholicism hasn’t changed since it was established a few hundred years after Christ? We know it’s not an unbroken chain of popes. It started with Rome. And then slowly incorporated various religious traditions of the people to keep them all united. And then over time conquered and brutally slaughtered different people groups in the name of Jesus. And now they are speaking plagiarism from the papal seat.
Sorry, the Catholic church was not the first church. Do not he deceived! The protest was REAL. We are supposed to come out of her (Catholicism) my people! Communion does NOT turn into Jesus' body and blood otherwise you are crucifying Him time and time again! Communion is simply to REMEMBER His shed blood and broken body. People came out of that and protested that! It is the great deception that the pope is the head of the church. They (the popes) are the true antichrist and do not follow the One True God.
With Mary and all the saints? I don't think so. This is lie. Catholicism is nothing but a house of worship of Mary and other saints, not God.
@@laurenmay2098- have you gotten to know devout Catholic believers? I’m not Catholic but I know practicing Catholics who do not lean on praying to the Saints & Mary. Yes some do, but your comment comes across as narrow minded and attacking.
@@dawnzimmerman6818 far from me to attack you. I am talking about catholics.