Cult-like Tactics of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)
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- Опубліковано 18 чер 2024
- Get ready for a critical and eye-opening episode of The Remnant Radio. We're exploring the cult-like tactics and practices that some churches in the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) use to maintain control and power.
The New Apostolic Reformation is a movement within certain charismatic Christian groups that emphasizes modern-day apostles and prophets. While it aims to bring revival and transformation, there are significant concerns about its methods and impact. In this episode, we'll explore some of the cult-like tendencies associated with the NAR, such as shunning members who leave the church and enforcing strict honor culture to control speech and maintain leadership power.
We'll discuss how these practices can create an environment where leaders remain in control and laypeople are kept ignorant and subservient. From manipulating followers through spiritual abuse to controlling narratives within the church, we'll uncover the strategies used to keep people in line.
Join us as we unpack these critical issues and shed light on the darker side of the New Apostolic Reformation. We'll examine the biblical perspective on these practices and offer insights on how to recognize and respond to cult-like behavior in any church setting.
For more episodes on the NAR, you can watch our playlist: • New Apostolic Reformation
🌐📧 Visit our Website & Subscribe to our Newsletter: www.theremnantradio.com
Every time you guys say “NAR”, I just think of “No” in an Australian accent..more specifically, “Oh NAR, Cleo! Oh NAR, Emma!” from H2O 😆
😂😂😂 As a Kiwi… this is funny
Excellent Comment!
I have seen too many people hurt in NAR churches due to the lack of wisdom, tendency to control and flat out misunderstanding that gifts are gifts and not positions.
Excellent Comment!
Emotion is great, but I think it's a problem when the fervor of one's emotional experience is the primary barometer of authentic faith. Building emotional experiences becomes valued over building orthodox doctrine
By "orthodox doctrine" do you mean reformed catholicism? Gavin Ortlund recently 1:46 quipped that he would "obey the Pope if the Pope followed the Bible." Something like that?
@paulral I mean historic, biblical doctrine. Not necessarily tied to a particular institution.
@paulral I agree with Gavin, but I didn't have that particularly in mind. Just "orthodox" in its broad sense of "historic." Along the lines of what Michael mentions about being wary of "new words".
@susanthroop6947 there definitely is
@susanthroop6947 idk what you mean by "put out the lights of heaven," but you'll note I said emotions ARE a good thing. They just shouldn't be how we measure the authenticity of faith. Put another way, our assurance of our salvation shouldn't come from how strong an emotional experience we go through. Our assurance is based on the person of Christ and the promises of God in Scripture.
Our understanding of Law and Gospel and justification by grace alone should indeed move and shape us emotionally. Right doctrine ought to produce right emotions (along with the rest of sanctification).
When we put emotional experience as the primary thing, doctrine and scriptural interpretation become shaped to that end and not the other way around.
This is a great video. I am a senior woman who has been in my non denominational church since I was 17. Recently, some of these teachings are creeping in. We have sounded the alarm. Not received.
"Praise God that this is coming to light!" Amen!
In a lot of churches the senior pastor seems to be the CEO
My former church started calling the elders "board members"...
True, do you think the Apostle Paul would have allowed that perception of himself or anyone else in the church?? No chance!!
Michael Roundtrees volume is always much lower than Josh's and Millers too. Its really awkward to have to switch the volume up or down and its been that way a lot for a long time.
Yes! I've noticed that recently too. I'll have my volume turned all the way up and can barely hear him.
No issues for me listening
I was scanning the comments for anyone's comment on this. Yes Miller's mic is very hot & Roundtree is like a whisper. Not so much a complaint as just a friendly heads up to the fellas. 🎙🎚🔈🔉🔊👍🤙
@@allthings2allmen I'm so glad others have noticed it because I was beginning to think it was just me! I hope the guys see it. I like to listen as I'm in bed sometimes and it's really jarring when it passes from one to the other. 😂 But yeah, just a pointer rather than a complaint!
I agree! Would be great to get this fixed.
I was in a church that shifted to these cult like tendencies. I remember feeling disheartened by the pressure put on us by the “7 mountain mandate” teaching. I just wanted to serve people not take over a “mountain”. Those who weren’t dominating in their field were looked down upon. It came to a point where the church was controlled by one woman who was labeled an Apostle by an outside ministry the leadership came under. The title was just a power trip.
I met with the elders and told them I believed everyone in the church should be allowed to bring something to the table when we gather (the way it had been years before). I was mocked. When told them my family would no longer be part of that church, they wished me well but secretly told my friends and my brother that I had a “spirit of Anti Christ”. I laughed it off continued to speak well of the “apostle” who said that. She soon got cancer that led to her death. I hope it was so that her “soul might be saved for the day of judgement.”
I agree, true Apostles are more like missionaries that are “sent” to take the gospel into new places and to lay a foundation there. I watched Bill Johnson live on God TV back in the days of the Lakeland “revival” before it imploded. The so called Apostle of Apostles made false prophecies when he went to see ol Todd Bentley. I bought into it and went there on the night we all filled a baseball stadium. Everyone lined up around the field to receive the special “anointing” that was there. They skipped over me. It made no sense at the time but looking back I thank God I didn’t receive the spirit that was there. I already had the Holy Spirit, I didn’t need anything more. Torben of TLR has a video about the false spirit at work in Bentley at that time.
..yes, i was surprised that Torben was so switched on as he has some other blind spots..
I already knew about William Branham (but thought dominion theology had gone away until 2019 when Clifford HIll in the UK spoke out against NAR and i suddenly realised it was a continuation of the old manifest sons of God)
The first video 2 i watched of todd bentley, he said the same angel that started Branhams ministry started mine (I immediately knew he was off as the HS starts ministries, not angels). I got his theology off of his web site for the few days it was there.
He was into Serpent seed theology (same as branham) and had some theologian saying it was ok to pray to angels (idolatory) using The Angel of the Lord in the OT (who has to be the preincarnate Jesus).
For some reason it didnt occur to me that Bill Johnson must be off if he was inauguarating Todd Bentley with no consideration for his theology... it wasnt until 2019 I joined up the dots and realised that Bethel were into dominion and going beyond the bible to get power (and then discovered their Physics of heaven book).
That NAR was effectively the new name for dominion...
I think the biggest issue with NAR is that even smaller churches in rural areas can be heavily influenced by the books, the nationally known leaders, the teachings, etc. I know I was being influenced by a lot of NAR doctrine through family members and church leaders I trusted. With some individuals it has felt increasingly cultish and weird.
It’s so sad to see how NAR ideology infiltrates Churches! Music is definitely a big factor in that.
Good point
I was in DAWN Switzerland for 10 years a board member: we made surveyed of churches and movements that grew. Of course we watched Peter Wagner and his teaching ministry to understand some of the movements we were observer from the very beginning on!
I was trained not only in theology but also I got to know many of those leaders personally in Switzerland!
When I was trained at an intercession school from YWAM The Lord spoke to me, that I will get in touch with DAWN I did not know what that was in those days! And the Lord spoke to me, I will get to know personally the leaders in Europe through whom God will bring revival! And this came to pass as the lord had told me!!!
The beginnings were good! Genuine! We have to be careful in judging the NAR we have to give an objective decernement for your guys in your Ecclesiologie are not unfailing!!!! The Reform of Luther, Zwingli and Calvin turned out as bad as the NAR! The reformation is not standard! ( I am a former Catholic and I left the Catholicisme because of the wrong ecclesiology)
I never turned to the reformers for their mistakes are today the deconstructionalists in whole Europe the critical theology of Bultman has destroyed all reformed Churches in Switzerland, Austria, Germany and France etc etc
Martin Luther was a persecutor of the Anabaptists!
Zwingly got involved in the military to fight for the reformed truth! He got killed in the kappeler Wars in Switzerland (by the way Zwingly was the first man having translated the whole Bibel into German - that was not Luther!!! But Zwingly translated the Bibel from the originals with a board of theologian and Jews from the early manuscripts! Luther translated from the Latin translation vulgata!!! But Luther was befriend with the printer Gutenberg who could print and distribute the manuscripts!!!!)
And Calvin was a completely irrational religious fanatic in Geneva. First he was send away because his rigid praxis, but those lunatics in the parliament got him back and he started a God’s state as Cromwell in England with a holy parliament! Nothing with free of speech but with a catalog of do not! And death penalties for not obeying the 10 commandments
You are holding strong to a reformed believe but you are Americans and you have no clue of those grazy reformers. Who acted as the inquisitors in the Catholic Church Have you ever learned church history and read the manuscripts in German?
Zwingly as well as Luther have killed anabaptists leader in Switzerland!
So be careful how you judge and communicate the NAR movement! Or do you want to raise another spiritual war?
I agree the ecclesiology of Wagner is a stupidity coming from those idiotic prophets their live style nobody has judged.
But we have to be sensible in our judgements for all revivals all church movements have pitfalls.
Probably you should speak of the devils strategies to deceive!!!!!
Very well said. When will remnant guys wake up. People should read Sir Robert Anderson from 19th century who explains gaps in Reformed theology's missing eschatology.
Us versus them is a huge warning. If you aren't allowed to have anything to do with other churches in any way you are in a cult. All of this all applies to non NAR churches. Glad you brought up the Moses doctrine.
Good job guys for explaining the NAR and opening our eyes spot on! We need more of this. Thank you
Interestingly - I did a Masters of Theological Studies in Pentecostal Studies and did a course on Apostles and Prophets and apparently in the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada (PAOC - which is connected with the Assemblies of God in the States) they hold that there are not apostles for today officially.
Correct. AOG in a position paper distanced themselves from five fold and dominionism 7 mountain mandate stuff
The AOG came against William Branham when he brought dominion theology into Canada /USA...
When Bill Johnson became obsessed with William Branham in the 1990's half of his church left and the AOG distanced themselves from him...
Today Bill Johnson wants William Branham's mantle...
John Andrew Collins (born into the branham cult and left 12 years ago aged 37) historical research is very interesting in this regard. Shows that Branham had loads of different personas and theologies and was even a preacher to the Klu Klux Klan...
I wouldn't use the term Apostle to refer to someone. If you think they are basically just missionaries, just call them missionaries. The term Apostle, whether you intend to do so or not, elevates the person above everyone else. Apostles have requirements, and anyone alive today can not meet these requirements. So they are just missionaries.
Yes!
I'll give some minor pushback but I completely agree on the concern. I want to use the Biblical language despite how others are misusing it. I ain't given up the rainbow no matter how badly it's being defiled.
@michaelmiller5024 but is that actually biblical? It says in the Bible that there are requirements to be an apostle; the main one being that you had to be an eye witness of the resurrected Christ. No one alive today can be an eye witness of the resurrected Christ. Therefore, it isn't biblical to call someone an apostle.
@@marionayers9726 I think there's a difference between the twelve vs eph 4 apostles. Paul's defense of seeing the Lord would be likened to the 12 rather than eph 4. The twelve held a special place in the unfolding of God's kingdom and establishment of the church. Eph 4 is speaking of a gift, not a position. Also, Eph 4 would be a text proof to show the ongoing of that gift till we achieve the "unity of the faith..."
...there are apostles outside of the 12 in the book of Acts... I think the biblical 5 fold ministry should be normal but NAR dont even use it in its biblical format. They think they are super apostles & prophets with more power than the original 12..
In the UK you have the New Frontiers Church started by Terry Virgo (the first reformed (calvanistic) denomination to believe in the gifts...
They believed in the restoration of the 5 fold ministry but with little a apostles not big A apostles (the original 12).
That denomination has done well in the UK...
Im Armenian in my theology, not calvanistic by the way...
Michael Roundtree excellent point about “the worship of me” song there toward the end of this video. Spot on.
God is exposing the darkness in the church.
I noticed Miller likes to use the term NARcissistic. Very good
Bill Johnson absolutely believes in the doctrine of the Manifest Sons of God.
Love Bill Johnson, he one of my favorite teachers
@ryanokehlis426
Ok, Benny.
😊
He evidently is referring to nephilim.
@@jeanalice4732 sons of God were rebel angels who sinned. Those from the days of Jared mated with the daughters of man and birthed the giants or nephilim.
Aside from not explaining that Bill Johnson teaches heresy after you said that NAR is not heretical, this episode was on point on everything else it seemed.
I was raised in a few different High Control/High Demand groups. They require a narrative to justify the high control. And they need to create entrancing conditions to extract what they demand. You guys nailed it!
This was great!! I loved it! Very helpful!!!
Some good stuff. I like sticking with biblical language. Everything in the Word is still for today but can be stretched beyond the Word.
The book, THE MANIFESTED SONS of GOD, is really telling. All except one case of manifestation in the New Testament, it is God that is manifested, rather than us, though they teach the manifestation of us. We become the Head, rather than growing into the Head (Christ, the Head of the Church). We eventually run world, rather than Jesus through His Body. It is based upon ego, pride, envy, idolatry and receiving a great ministry if you serve the apostles and follow the prophets' prophesies. I was in it for decades and personally knew many of the players.
We got to see NAR in all their manifested glory at the Bentley ordination in Lakeland. They sent their best. They couldn't have been more wrong!!! Few repented. Most of these went back to their old ways. Manifested Sons of God or Dominionism eventually ends up in Universalism, called Total Reconciliation, or Finished Work, where even demons and the Devil gets saved.
Christ in us is the hope of glory
..yay the Lakeland revival, we saw the NAR at their best !! Indeed...
I knew something was up when i was watching Todd bentley for the first time and he said the same angel that started Branhams ministry started mine..
I then managed to get his doctrine off of his web site for the few days it was there. He was into serpent seed theology and he had some theologian saying it was ok to pray to angels using The Angel of the Lord from the OT who has to be the pre-incarnate Jesus as people worshipped Him.
I didnt realise until 2019 though that NAR existed and that it was the new name for dominion theology which i thought had gone away...
Clifford Hill in the UK went public about the NAR attendees at a national day of prayer, suddenly the lights went on especially when i found out about Bethels grave soaking antics and their book The PHysics of Heaven..
OK, you guys definitely need to do a show about pastors failing and stepping down such as Tony Evans, Robert Morris, maybe you are already preparing it I don’t know but it’s viral everywhere and I was hoping you do a segment on this please thank you
Thanks for the input
My understanding is that the NAR movement believes that we are in a second Apostolic age. These new Apostles are equal with the original Apostles. The mission is to take control of the earthly kingdoms and to bring heaven to earth to bring about a massive end time harvest so that Christ can return to rule and reign. And I'm sure that there is more.
I take issue with the idea that there would be New Apostles because the cornerstone and foundation has already been built. The church has already been established. The Cornerstone is Christ, the original Prophets and Apostles are the foundation and we the believers are the building stones that make up the Temple of God. We shouldn't be trying to change that.
It is an entirely new teaching that is nowhere in scripture. I find that problematic. The gifts are to be used to build up the church so that we can go out and make disciples by rescuing people from the darkness. Not to take over the kingdoms of this world. Jesus said "My Kingdom is NOT of this world.". He will return and establish it on earth and at that time rule and reign over it.
I was hoping they would bring up Dominionist doctrine, Seven Mountain type stuff. Kind of bummed they didn't get to that.
@@jasonstark5575 I've been looking more into the movement. It's way bigger than I realized.
Sounds satanic to me. Bringing in antichrist
There have been groups that believed that if they could bring about the perfect "Kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven" it will accelerate the return of Jesus. That said, the ones I know about did it through massive good works and charity.They lived communally and their whole lives were devoted to service.
@@namewitheld2568 There is nothing wrong with wanting to share the gospel and bring people into the Kingdom. That is our appointed mission. We are to rescue people from the darkness into the Light of Truth. However, Jesus is the one that will establish His Kingdom here on earth. The Kingdom is within us. His Kingdom is not of this world. Jesus words not mine.
I believe in what Paul said about the 5 fold ministry for the Church. Jesus gave Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers. I believe the cessationists that do not believe this and do not believe in miracles are very cult like.
I also believe the 5 fold ministry is relevant and God Himself gave those “gifts to people to serve other people”. Unfortunately there’s a lot of distortion… instead of humility theres a lot of celebrity and/or control.
I think you're misrepresenting the cessationist position. They do believe in miracles. I've never heard any serious cessationist say God no longer does miracles. They believe in the sovereignty of GOD to do miracles, not these modern day "apostles" to do them on command. Miracles are not a normative aspect of the Christian life, otherwise there's nothing miraculous that happens.
Could you guys please do a series specifically identifying common NAR doctrine and how/why it is wrong??
My mom and I found this channel and realized we have been taught NAR theology for the last 26 years. It's great that God has shown us that what we were taught was not correct, but now we have a lot of questions and uncertainty.
If you guys could lay out the bad doctrine, tell us why it is bad, and what the truth is, it would clear up SO MUCH for us.
We love you guys and your ministry and we recommend y'all to friends and family all the time!! Keep doing good and don't grow weary!
Thanks so much! Here's a playlist with all of our episodes on the NAR. The one on NAR vocabulary and terminology should help you. ua-cam.com/play/PLMsjeViSScFHJkZd7Oivj-CyblQ1xp5fK.html
Get books by Holly Pivec and Doug Geivett... They have helped me.
As always, you guys did a GREAT job with this!! Thank you!!
Please Defer to the Wonderful "Leaving The (William Branham) Message" YT Channel, in all Matters Related to The NAR! 🙏
Is “activate” and “activations” a NAR term? Reading a book about evangelism and that term is used and I’ve never heard of it before. Thank you!
After five years at Bethel we knew it was time to leave even though they offered us to pastor small group leaders. We had done several ministries including healing rooms where we participated in several healings; helping start coaching ministry; Sozo; leading home groups and others. What we saw dramatically was the “if you don’t fall in step with my vision you can hit the road” doctrine, straight from Bill’s mouth. Also a huge abuse was the so called culture of honor abuse. Honoring became a means of silencing any difference of opinion of any kind. Another issue is the tendency to overblow healings. I think the rationalization is that more miracles create an atmosphere of faith, which in turn releases more miracles. Don’t get me wrong, I love miracles as much as the next person, but exaggerating is lying. I never see Jesus doing it. When there were no miracles, Jesus admits it. Besides, God doesn’t need us to work up faith: he’s the author of our faith.
A good friend is a man who ministers in great power in the prisons. One day he was invited to Bethel and he was trying to address some “exaggeration” of healings but was told that you couldn’t tell Bill something negative because he kept himself in a positive/spiritual state. What can I say?
In retrospect I’m glad we were there and I feel I gained a special confidence in the power of God. But I went into it with a lot of preparation. The typical Bethel student has little or none.
I mourn the lack of the supernatural in the church today. And, as I’m fond of saying, what is Christianity without then supernatural? Nothing! He “rules” or dwells from/in other dimensions. If you remove the eternal what have you got? A club perhaps.
My dream is a church where scripture is as important as the miraculous. Maybe you Remnant guys are trying to go there…?
Could you explain the role of apostles according to Ephesians 4:11-12?
Remnant... thank you I don't understand church hurt...I get it and have seen it but don't understand it.
My faith and loyalty and trust and hope and love and life and future is in Jesus Christ not in a building or ministry.
You guys should discuss and have open dialogue with dr brown on the subject
Great episode, alot of wisdom here, thank you guys!
I get emotional even when singing the old hymns. When I think about the words, they are just as moving as the new music, sometimes more when I know the history of the hymn writer.
Are we singing early church songs. Def there are great hymns no doubt it. But in psalms sing a new song
Sorry, should have said early instead of old!
The NAR movement seems to be a remake of the old Shepherding movement, which I endured for 9 traumatic years before fleeing to another city.
They've got similarities in that everyone needs to submit all decisions to the leaders, but that's about it. NAR has a lot more problematic beliefs and practices than the old shepherding movement, which I bailed on very quickly when they demanded that I sign a contract.
Sons of God can also refer to the watchers and and angels.
Heavy shepherdin can also be a phenomenon in some NAR churches
I think you are more after narcissists. Narcissists need to be removed from ministry. They ARE dangerous.
@RemnantRadio - honest question, when you interviewed Bickle this past year, did any of you suspect he may have been full of holy bologne?
Honestly...I did, but I was also hurt by a movement that looked up to him. When you've been gaslit there is this tendency to not trust your own instincts. I feel a ton of regret on that.
Rowntree's volume is pretty low...any way that ya'll could equalize this?
Thank y’all so much for doing this episode! I have a genuine question… where would Dutch Sheets stand on the NAR spectrum? He seems like he would fit into the NAR supporting world but I’m not sure. My friend listens to him daily but it just seems really weird to me.
I haven’t been keeping up with you guys lately, partly due to my perception that you were promoting NAR teachers and doctrines. I was quite surprised by this video. Your handling of the NAR issue was excellent!
On the sound issue, it appears the sound engineer in the basement is doing gain structure nicely but the other engineers need to get a more solid signal off the mic. Realize your listeners often have no way to add volume but can always turn you down. If Im listening in my old pickup it’s really hard to hear much of your audio. Listen at 58:20 or thereabouts for an example of the two different levels.
Normally Josh is with us. We are the ignorant guys on the show. Josh knows things but was on vacation.
Good Discussion. I have been avoiding watching this one, but I am now glad I Did! I learned a lot from Miller's story, and what you both alluded to, reguarding the Us vs.Them /"They are Just Jealous of Us because We Have it All" Mentality (thanks Bill Johnson 😕😶🤨😒).....real Trigger Points for NAR Survivors like me! Thank You Both! 👍
Great job breaking this down with scripture! Lots of sacred cows that need to be exposed.
Jim Jones was initially an AOG guy & was very connected to Branham
15:00 you dont think bill johnson is big on the manifest sons of God, I would have thought he would be as he got completely into William branham in the 1990's and had to leave the AOG and half of his church left... Johnson wants William Branhams mantle..
Their book The physics of heaven has teaching on the manifest sons of God... that book apparently gets taught at bethel bible school...
Scary indeed
Bible Project greatly unpacks "manifest sons" it is COMPLETELY different then how it's normally applied
..have you got the link to that. I cant find it
If it's different from normal interpretation, you might need to be suspicious of it. 🤔
It was from a podcast. Sorry guys, I don't remember which. But it was in reference to this world's hostility towards the sons of God.
So Ephesians 4 is nothing then? No one is meant to equip anyone? YOU are using the word "special." No one else is
What do you think the entire purpose of church is?
AndbI seem to remember Jesus having something to say about those who have the best seats, and the best clothes, and the places of honor.
Every single pastor and older Christian has the purpose of equipping.
I used to go to the church you worked at Miller, it’s sad to see what goes on behind the scenes, especially because a lot of people my age are influenced heavily by the ministry
Well...they are supposedly investigating my allegations against them and their leader. Time will tell how honestly and thoroughly they do this. Where are you now?
@@michaelmiller5024 I left about a year ago and I’ve been traveling overseas, I was attending and fellowshiping with believers all over the world which taught me so much h, but I don’t have a home fellowship at the moment, I just returned home to Dallas. I went to the village Denton a few times, but I’m looking at the moment.
I feel like this was a well-intentioned conversation that swerved all over the road and didn't end up at its intended destination. There was a lot of criticism, very little scripture, and I'm not sure what the conclusion was, if any, outside "those other people are bad" and "come to our conference".
Breaking down where things have gone wrong is a very valid and important process. Sparing others from hurt and abuse is also very important. But I dont think either of those was accomplished here.
Its an important topic that I hope you guys can take another swing at.
Agreed
I feel like mans free will has highjacked the Church. We have the ability to walk in the word of God or walk in the word of man. I can attest to how messed up Christians seem, outside looking in. I thought when i got saved (not in a church but being convicted by the Holy Spirit who showed me who Jesus really was) that surely Christians have it all together and i thought it would be easy finding a good church and people who love Jesus like I do. Thats when I saw it. God has put the Church on my heart because we are so all over the place. I speak out to people around me who follow faulty doctrine and most are blinded and get defensive. Lets get back to the saving Gospel and get rid of the "I'm the most special doctrine" or the "gospel of me". Im glad you guys did this show.
Bro there are various denominations have prob with other not only nar
Emotion manipulation isn't the worship - it's the "you won't be part of the bride (or whatever is the bend) if you leave".
C. Peter Wagner wrote the book “Dominion!” and then changed the title for the second edition.
..that is interesting, I did not know that. What did he change it to....
I saw my beautiful church be destroyed when they adopted Christ for the Nations extreme prosperity and healing. The leaders became inflated with pride. They would tell us that we could die if we questioned them or their sermons and they became very controlling. Basically, we needed to stop thinking and just follow.
So sorry to hear this
Where is the link to Michael Miller’s story about his former church ? I don’t see it but maybe I missed it. Thanks!
Spot on guys thank you good stuff
I was hoping you guys would bring up Dominionist doctrine, Seven Mountain type stuff.
We did. Just didn't go into great detail on that.
@@michaelmiller5024 do you have any episodes that cover it more specifically?
@@jasonstark5575I seem to recall us addressing it in more length but I honestly don't remember which episode. Sorry...😣
Excellent job addressing this serious issue brothers!!...This is a very disturbing movement which seems to be highjacking much of the global huge charismatic movement.(at least many of MAGA theme megachurches or sign&wonders/wordfaith decree megachurches!)
It really does seem to stem from a continuum of the teaching from William Marion Branham... to Paul Cain..to Bob Jones..to Kenneth Copeland.... and now, by those like Kat Kerr, Robin Bullock,Johnny Enlow and others who are highly promoted by "Elijah Streams"! These new "super-spiritual" modern apostles/prophets often give their newly downloaded extra-biblical revelations!When you boil it down, their message seems to be rooted in, or stemming from that same doctrine by Branham of "manifest sons of God"/vis a vis "Dominionism"/preterist"Kingdom Now", or pre-Tribulation "Kingdom Now ", (woohoo glory days of signs& wonders )!They incessantly prophesy that "the reformed Ecclesia led by new prophets and apostles will eventually take over the 7 mountains of the world system ,for many many years, perhaps many generations, in order to bring in the billion soul harvest!(Many add :" all following the upcoming Red Sea victory of the return of Trump, our gold-standard "Retribution" to lead our Christianized New America!
In my view, all this is toxic to the max! For it (1)foster pride of life, (2) encourages leaning on a charisma-laden human leader ,"trusting in princes,or leaning on the arm of flesh"!) (3) fosters materialism and (4) fosters unteachableness, and(5) an unwillingness to bear the cross, facing hardships of these last days! Again brothers,thanks for addressing the dangers of this convoluted teaching that can easily engender sophistry and cult- like control.God help us get back to the Cross!
Your comment: " in order to bring in the billion soul harvest!"
I know that was a prophecy from Bob Jones, do you know if Daniel Kolenda's (CFan - Christ for all nations) million soul harvest links into that prohecy...
Is he flying that close to Bethel that he got that prophecy from them...
I know Kolenda has endorsed a book entitled 'Power Portals' by Joshua Mills which is basically new age, dont know if he endorsed it without reading it..
Did you say Jack Deere goes to Great Commission Church in Olive Branch, MS?
No, I believe he said that Jack had spoken there
Name names. Who should be marked and avoided?
Hey what happened to Dawson?? He has so much wisdom and insight. Totally surprised he's not on this episode
Dawson is great and continues to help with our programs, like the blog!
often the us vs them is very very subtle and only evident over a long period of time
What if the new expression is actually the old one? What if the expression your used to is a tradition of man?
Im trying to figure out which of those pastors resigned (tony evans, td jakes and i forget the other one) and Im getting a lot of fake AI-generated videos. Are you sure about this information??
Good stuff! Informative and in my experiences…all very true
However, on a side note Miller should look into Technivorm for his coffee exploits
Very good very true seen it all and the lord in my prayer and study time has shown me as i have prayed and sounght him after having questions and feeling like im not fitting into the vision ,and made to feel like im not getting it ,and even the prayers go against me for saying something that dont fit into there narrative, and i am made to feel like ive said something wrong, and it has happened several times , i study my bible in context ,sense the lord speaking through the scripture ,have walked with the lord 48yrs. And my pastor was just given the certificate of Apostle , i love the people, snd agree with the word taught from the scriptures ,but in our prayer group , smaller gatherings it is all NAR. and i thank God a name has been put on it ,to identify it ,because i have been getting discernment for a year something is off ,discerning ,the lord has been showing me, and seen people get hurt and wounded and basically there not fittingbinto the vision for the church ,it is exactly what you guys are talking about God confirming ,clarifying what im discerning ,God is showing me is true ,correct, thankyou giys, praying for you all.
I would be curious if you found a “nar” church that doesn’t have all the junk and trash tied to it. To interview them..look up the Church team ministry international(CTMI) guys.
Isn't there a certain amount of fluidity to church structure within certain boundaries? Some structure is in conflict or harmony with culture.
Hymns written in, say, the 1700s were new when they were written and probably emotionally expressive at that time. The issue is disengaging the mind and relying purely on the emotion.
One thing charismatics do is mistake talent and gifted performances with "anointing."
By the way, FTR, I am not and will never be a cessationist. Cessationism has no support in Scripture and requires reading one's interpretation into the Bible.
I have heard the disengaging your mind talk quite often from speakers I now understand are NAR. “God is not logical! Empty your mind to fill it with whatever vision I have dreamed up this week! Always had a hard time trying to do that but I’m glad I did!
12:54 - came from the book The Complete Wineskin by Harold Eberle, interesting... William Branham must be in there somewhere as well i would have thought...
Just curious for the Dallas guy if you're aware of the multiple indicators spoken of here present at another Dallas megachurch. It's been quite the front seat education to being part of and then pushed out of a culty "church" that's business first in Jesus' Name. Thankful for the information you are sharing. It's going to take informed followers rightly dividing the Word of Truth to both receive the wounded and warn the sheep of wolves.
Have you guys ever done teachings on home churches? They don't seem to follow the church office structures in the Bible. Who are they accountable to? Are home churches for today?
Thank you for raising the issue of novelty. Charismatics/Pentecostals love drama and new exciting things as a group, which is one main reason we tend to be prone to embrace all kinds of bizarre stuff. So you mean God deprived Christians of this amazing secret for two millenia and decided to reveal it to this guy/woman? Nah.
Give me that old time religion is right.
The early church had holy spirit tongues miracles missions gifts but now?
51:39. Hmm. I do think I maybe understand what you mean. But, what is hype? How do you define hype? Can you name three worship leaders you define as hype so I maybe I can understand better? To be honest, I feel hype have become a strong smear without definition. A threat of an enemy we can’t agree on. People would agree to the word, but have totally diverse understandings and standards for what hype is. And even there are things that we have to be cautious about, hype just ends up a straw man.
Hype is working to create the environment of emotionalism - raising the volume, pumping the audience, creating over-excitement for the purpose of emotionalism - Versus the authentic, true, organic worship of God and the honest emotion that comes with that.
@@TheRemnantRadio Sounds good. The issue is that raising the volume, pumping up the audience, emotionalism and over excitement is language 100% would nod in agreement that those excesses is bad. But when we hash out the meaning of the language the same people would still be disagreement if B Hinn is hype or not. And that is not my commentary on Hinn, it’s just an example that the warning language on this issue is not that helpful. We get loads of yes and amen, but when it’s get down to crunch time, we are still as divided on where the line is crossed as before.
Would you like to do a sound check? One is much louder than the other. Don't want to wake the kids. Thanks❤
Paul didn't rank spiritual gifts. Each one is eqaul to the other.
Are we ever allowed to command or declare healing?
What do you think of Bob Jones?
Some of us think he is an unsafe, unqualified believer. Others of us think he is a false prophet. All of us are deeply concerned and would recommend avoiding his previous teachings.
12:04 Bill Johnsons book When Heaven Invades Earth, yes definitely NAR, manifest sons of God, latter rain theology... it all came in through william Branham in the 1950's...
Equality of Elders is Biblical, not a a CEO Visionary i agree. Im willing to bet my life on the fact that the Apostle Paul saw himself as an equal fellow elder not at the top of a hierarchical pyramid system. And i bet he would have made that clear to all the beleives he interacted with. He would have said hey im your equal im not higher up the ladder then you. I have the function of an Apostle by the grace of God & you have your grace but we are still equals. He would have pointed to Jesus as the authorty & that authorty delegated to the body of beleivers as equals not given to a special individual. The Apostle Paul would vomit to such an idea.
Your comments about Bickel always telling stories about his own "great works" (about 27m) reminds me of John Piper's comment in the aftermath of the Ravi Zacharias scandal - he said something along the lines of that he was always uneasy about Zacharias because he was always the hero of the anecdotes he told.
According to the definition(s) given in this program I’ve been in NAR or NAR adjacent churches most of my Christian life (50 years). I am critical of some things I see. The super apostle who dare not be questioned being the main one.
Having said that, in this program I hear a critique similar to the broadbrushing that comes from the Cessationists. Maybe a 3” brush, instead of a 6” brush.
The part that I can’t figure is making comparisons to the likes of Jim Jones or Scientology. Yikes.
Comparing doctrines and practices to scripture, excellent. Comparing to David Karesh? Not necessary.
Bottom line, every teacher I’ve ever heard that would be lumped into NAR, which by Cessationist’s standard would be all Charismatics / Full gospel / Pentecostals etc, teach salvation by no other means than faith in Christ alone.
Can we differ on non-salvation issues without calling each other heretics and questioning each other’s salvation? Not to mention unfairly questioning other people motives and character . :)
Referring to Elders in NAR centers-Unfortunately, if there are elders, they are in the same page as the Apostle & main Prophet/ess
This is very informative yet something occurs to me. A lot of these characteristics barring the miraculous also describes reformed cessationist churches.
It's unfortunate. We must all examine ourselves, our churches, and our practices that we are following God's Word & God's character.
I have a problem with consistently emotive music or consistently emotionally "charged" music. Dial it down is better.....at the same time good solid praise is great
Is it not happening in other churches
To be honest, even tho Bethel says they arent NAR it sounds like they are.
Im trying to follow your thinking, but you guys kept begging the question and didn’t make a biblical refutation against the NAR
In this episode, we were just looking at the cultish tendencies of the NAR. For more info, we have a whole playlist with episodes on the NAR. You can watch that here: ua-cam.com/play/PLMsjeViSScFHJkZd7Oivj-CyblQ1xp5fK.html
@@TheRemnantRadio I didn't hear any definitive descriptions of cultish tenancies either, just a conversation on vibes lol. I'll check it out though
become a sacramental charismatic and you have about zero chance of falling into NAR cult-like tendencies :)
Like traditional mainline churches i see not much difference except better in some things
I have a love and disappointment relationship with you guys. And I actually stopped watching you after the IHOP series before the scandal. But I am pleasantly surprised to see growth in discernment and even surprised that you would quote Holly Pivec’s book. It’s important to be open to correct theology. Praise the Lord. He is working in His church.
We actually have an episode with Holly that we streamed December 7, 2020. You can watch it here: ua-cam.com/video/o3Cf_7q2014/v-deo.html
I'm not in a NAR church but the bashing of other churches bugs me. There are John 12 shepards that have entered the fold NOT through the Gate. God will take care of them. Because some of those false pastors have true believers under them. And there are true pastors who are charismatic.
Thank you!! Deeply disturbing with how members of the Body of Christ is treating one another. We are family- His family.
I think I'm more concerned with the abuse of the sheep in those churches than the reputation of the organization. John wrote seven letters to seven churches and in each one he pointed out some glaring faults publicly. Would that be considered bashing? Or concern?
So we can't talk about unbiblical treatment of people in churches?
You're in error sister. Read the NT. We are to call out issues in churches.
I agree. Many people are seeking God with sincerity. I think that Holt Spirit has been overlooked in a lot of mainline protestant Church's and people are trying to reconnect with the aspect of God in a meaningful way.
It seems like you are saying NAR believes charismatic stuff but takes it too far? I am not hearing a clear distinction. There has been some sort of apostolic succession, but they don’t have the kind of authority that The Twelve had?
I think that’s about right.
Fake Christianity
It tends to grow inside charismatic circles because a lot of it depends on prophecy. But it's heterodox in its ideas about what constitutes an apostle (typically within NAR that title carries way too much weight), as well as mingling with legalistic ideas about faith, prayer, submission, and giving. The central idea is following The Apostle without question. The other legalistic ideas simply tend to follow, but they're not necessary to the movement.
The minor ideas are:
Prayer: you have to pray in a certain way to "unlock" gifts of Heaven
Giving: you have to give to get; the more you give, the more you get
Faith: faith is psychological certainty that you have to conjure up in yourself to receive blessings
Submission: you have to submit and cannot question the leadership of the church or you're in sin
@@merrygrammarian1591 how much weight should the label apostle carry?
Edit: Keener has a 3 part response on his site regarding "are there Apostles today". Wish I could remember the details. Good to see u
Lets do Remnant Conference here in Curitiba, Brazil!
I'm in! Always wanted to go to Brazil!
So glad u mentioned court Heaven teaching, we ‘tired’ to understand what is was and it’s formula- turns out our confusion was Gods way of saying to us-this isn’t for you, let Holy Spirit work as the Son Jesus Christ is interceding to the Father on our behalf! Remember what It IS FINISHED provides 😊
Here is a playlist with several episodes where we discuss the Courts of Heaven: ua-cam.com/play/PLMsjeViSScFHWqa0UrrNVapjKfyM5OhEu.html
Emotionality in worship starts with me I self!
Take me in your arms. I can’t stand those worship songs:
They should be
You are a God who fights for justice giving you live for me and the world so that orphans are no more you are worthy of praise and honour etc
NAR ministries generally have good worship to a point but like the rest of the service, controlled to a certain time limit not to interfere with the length of the leaders message, weird huh?
Conference on Spiritual Gifts in October 3-5 2024 in Houston, TX
I actually emailed regarding what I learned about KV while at Bethel and was black listed for inquiring. KV himself had blocked me. Which of course feels like rejection. When in reality, if Mike Bickle has just gotten in trouble for having a "harem" of women around him... wouldn't it stand to reason then that as a leader I would avoid that same appearance? Instead of q conversation I got blocked. And then like so many, I heard KV defend MB. Defending a child predator and liar and predator of so many women. It's just all so sad.
very sad
Was at Miller’s church in Denver, and I can say that I witnessed a miracle! They had Chick-fil-a on Sunday!! But for real, he preached on deliverance and how to tear down strongholds which is how we wage war as Christians. We may have a spirit that we’ve had for so long it can be hard to tell between us and the spirit.
by their fruit you will know them. not their claims of fruit.
First, that's a common misinterpretation of Scripture. What's the stronghold being addressed and what is our battle strategy? Let's look at 2 COR 10 " ... casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled." Do you see that the battle being discussed is in our minds? It's about wrong ideas, thoughts, and arguments, the battlefield is the mind. And our warfare is to bring thoughts into obedience and to punish disobedience. It's not about fighting demonic strongholds in the heavenlies. We don't have the authority to directly attack demonic principalities. The guy who started that false teaching, John Paul Jackson from Kansas City Metro, repented of his error and wrote a book about it called Needless Casualties of War. It's not our job to attach principalities. Our job is to save the lost. Yes, we may invade the enemies territory to preach the Gospel and perform miracles to demonstrate God's authority. And while we're there, we may encounter people who need deliverance and we can cast demons out to set the captive free to believe in Christ. But the demonic principalities are staying in place until Christ returns. It's His job to tear them down and destroy them in the Lake of Fire at the end.
Paul tells that in ephesians 6 we are nkt warring against flesh but spirits
@jamesphilips194 we can have strongholds! Look up what that means.
@@user-zh7ye5wk9l yes, but look at how we wage war and the context of our armor. we wage spiritual warfare by preaching the Gospel to save souls, by praying for the sick to be healed. No where does it say we directly attack demonic principalities. When someone tells you to pray against a demonic spirit, they've overstepped Scripture and their authority. While we are preaching and healing, we're advancing the Kingdom with each soul saved. AND we come under attack by the enemy, thus the defensive armor of God. But what's our response when we're attacked? Do we "pray against" the devil? No. Not in Scripture. Instead we pray for boldness and courage to keep bringing the battle, which is to preach the Gospel.
Hah. My Pastor doesn't even refer to the statement of faith for the Baptist's. His response is "I don't need a statement of faith. I have the Bible"