My biggest doubt about the Shroud is the multiple, independent carbon dating tests that place it around the 13th century. If enough people upvote this comment, I’ll organize a live discussion on the Shroud!
I am a dedicated Shroudie and researched it quite a bit. search on "ray woods shroud carbon dating" for an atheist scientist who confirmed before his death that the carbon dating was flawed/wrong. The three samples were taken from the same small corner and sent to three separate labs. Yes, they got "late" results, but in that corner was later material that was added to repair the frayed corner. The process is called "invisible french weave" and it consisted of adding a patch that was carefully woven into the original fabric and then dyed to match the Shroud. There are a few secular documentaries on this controversy. Every other data point supports the Shroud -- linen weave, pollen, descriptions from history and matching blood stains on the Soudarium of Oviedo, which is said to be the cloth wrapped around His head. BTW, the Shroud is real.
Capturing Christianity do look into it. Look up Father Spitzer's article "Science and the Shroud of Turin". This topic is quite fascinating. I think one of the most impressive things about the shroud is how hard it is to replicate it. We can't seem to get it right, no matter how much we try.
I can truly understand your point of view on the matter. Yet I must beg the question. How would it prove that it was yashua who wore the shroud and not a really popular rabbi from the 1st century
Heathen The Heretic *Hebrews **7:24**-28* NT “24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. 26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; 27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.” Leviticus 16 *The Day of Atonement* OT Lev 16:2-4 & 23 “For I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat. 3 But in this way Aaron shall come into the Holy Place: with a bull from the herd for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. 4 He shall put on the holy linen coat and shall have the linen undergarment on his body, and he shall tie the linen sash around his waist, and wear the linen turban; these are the holy garments. (See also; Daniel 10 & 12) . . . 23 “Then Aaron shall come into the tent of meeting and shall take off the linen garments that he put on when he went into the Holy Place and shall leave them there.” *John 20:6-7* “6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself.” *Psalm 102:25-27* OT “25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. 26 They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, 27 but you are the same, and your years have no end”
@@MadolcheGabbana what does any of this have to do with the shroud actually being worn by Jesus. I swear some of you are so far gone to the point a simple question becomes an answer filled with crap and totally off subject. Nothing you wrote proves that Jesus ever existed yet alone does it prove that yashua wore it! Why is this so hard for believers to understand
I believe in the shroud of Turin. It’s not just the image, it’s the blood that matches the Eucharistic miracles, the image of the flow of blood, the enzymes in the blood, the 2000 years old flower pollen, the image of the coin on the eyes. The fact that it’s so detailed and can never be replicated.
Ray Downing was able to create a 3D image of the man on the shroud with computer technology using the microscopic data on the shroud that is actually a negative photograph. Because of his work, we know what the man who was wrapped in that shroud actually looked like. That is some crazy shizzle.
If it was real, people would be touching it to heal themselves. Just like the Bible story of the sick woman who touched Jesus’s clothing while he was walking in the crowd
I totally believe, as a Catholic Christian. I’m totally convinced. I have faith, and total faith in this image on the Shroud, it is the image of Jesus Christ, crucified. Thank you Jesus. 🙏🙏🙏❤️
Believe in God, not on a shroud depicting God. Even if the shroud is authentic, nobody can be saved by putting our faith in the image of Jesus' corporeal form. Walk not by sight, but by faith always. Because without faith it is impossible to please God.
What you believe on faith alone requires no scientific proof as support. If the Shroud were shown 100% to be a forgery tomorrow, your faith would be untouched.
The pieces that were removed for carbon dating was on the periphery of the shroud and later discovered to have been repaired with dyed cotton using a weave repair method known as "invisible weaving". This repair happened in sixteenth century. Since the original linen had acquired a "patina" over the centuries, and linen doesn't accept dyeing, cotton was used which could be dyed to match the patina. This repair wasn't noticed until years after an original investigator, Ray Rogers used a light microscope on a strip he saved from the pieces cut for carbon dating. This weave with new and old fibres nullifies the date once accepted for the shroud.
The section of the Shroud used as a sample for carbon dating was specifically selected because it was the original cloth and unpatched. The 'invisible patch' theory was a coping mechanism concocted by shroudists to keep the mystery of the Shroud alive. To believe this theory, you must believe that medieval weavers had the skill to patch the Shroud so well that the patch was indistinguishable from the original cloth.
I agree with Dr. Habermas that the shroud is most likely authentic. I also find the evidence provided by the team of scientists in the 70's more compelling than the radio carbon dating from the 80's which was reported as being biased and not thorough enough. The STIRP (sp?) team concluded definitively, that the shroud was not a painting. Also the theory that the image was created by an electromagnetic burst of energy is very intriguing and I propose a correlation between it, and the electromagnetic aftereffects reported by NDE experiencers. I wish someone would study this phenomenon more in depth. I brought my theory to the attention of Dr. Habermas, only because he has looked into both the shroud studies and the NDE phenomenon but he politely replied he had not made this correlation. Having said that though, I think the theory requires a scientist's perspective. Why are so many NDE experiencers coming back with the ability to affect electrical currents? What is the physical connection between spirituality and electromagnetic activity? If we could get to the bottom of this very question, I think it would get us one step closer to understanding and perhaps authenticating the Shroud.
It's real. It can't be duplicated even with today's technology. The 3d scanning , the negative image . Whether its 200 years old or 2,000 it can't be duplicated
And the description of the shroud matches Jesus’s body, there was a puncture wound on the side, a swollen face, piercings on the wrists, and that the victim suffered extreme torture
Witchcraft can't be ruled out. The Vatican Officials are practitioners of Kabbalah and black magic, surely it's not coincidence that the shroud came from the Catholic Church? Great deception, this is the false Christ of Catholicism and not the biblical Jesus.
@@michaelturnage3395 The Shroud of Turin was not even owned by the Catholic Church until 1983, when it was given by the House of Savoy to the Holy See. The Church's view, whether the cloth is authentic or not has no bearing whatsoever on the validity of what Jesus taught. The church does not oblige the faithful to believe in any relics, this include the Shroud.
I worked on IONIZING RADIATION DETECTION at PNNL in Washington State for 34 years and the SHROUD IMAGE was made with a burst of charged particle radiations (energetic electrons, or charged particles like protons and alpha particles or EXTREME, EXTREME VACUUM ULTRAVIOLET. The radiation came from the body as well to make the image, I concur with that. Further NONE of the ionizing radiation sources were available in the 1300s or further back. Even of we had the ionizing radiation source match, it's unclear if we have the engineering today to duplicate the SHROUD it's that technically complex. To even attempt a copy today would be ENORMOUSLY EXPENSIVE, hundreds of millions in research and you may end up with a poor duplicate at that level of effort!! Retired PNNL Scientist! P.S. Don't forget the SHROUD of TURIN is closely associated with the SUDARIUM of OVIEDO. The SUDARIUM covered the face of Jesus after the CRUCIFIXION and the blood stains and other features have 70 points of Correlation with the SHROUD of TURIN. The SUDARIUM is KNOWN Historically to 600 AD . This places the SHROUD much, much older than the middle AGED Carbon date (wrong Carbon date in my humble opinion and the SHROUD is known Historically back to 1390s).
Don’t you think that if it was real, people would be begging to touch it and heal their sicknesses? Just like the story in the Bible of the sick woman who had faith in Jesus while he was in a crowd she and touched a piece of his cloth and got healed
A woman who worked with the shroud, and is an expert on ancient textiles... believed the portion they used to carbon date, was a section of the shroud that was mended. The mending technique was dated itself... and matched the timeline to the carbon dating year the scientist derived. Yes there were multiple independent test... but they were all done with the same section. Had they used multiple sections from the shroud as well the test would have been much more comprehensive. So imagine if they used 4 different areas of the shroud... and then... only the one section originally used out of the samples was youngest, and the rest dated back to Jesus time. I still think, and always will, it is a tragedy they only used one tiny little corner smidge to completely invalidate the whole. There was much too much depending on this... for them not to use multiple sites of the cloth as well.
Agree with you 100 per cent. The piece they used to carbon date it was taken from a corner that actually was sewn on and not the original linen of the shroud, but rather it is gotten and had been burned in the fire in the 1500's. They need to do another carbon date from the ', field' portion of the shroud that is the original linen part. But I don't think the Catholic church will allow it to be re-tested. Everything is so 'political'.
@@kingGeorgefan1 Yes there is something very weird going on within the hierarchy of the Catholic church. I just watched a movie called Mary Magdalene. I wasn't long into it when I realized it bared little resemblance to the Gospels. Jesus was depicted as weak and confused, dirty and disheveled. His teachings were hacked and distorted leaving the viewer uninspired. They even had him turning to Mary for wisdom. The disciples seemed to be clueless, highlighting their chauvinistic insecurities, only Judas was given the more positive light. When Jesus arrived in Jerusalem for the Passover, they had the disciples yelling here comes Jesus almost like a sales pitch. The movie was creepy, unenlightened, depressing, and not at all true to the Bible. I had an inkling it was influence by Catholicism when Jesus recited the massacred version of the Lords Prayer... And I was justified during the end credits. This movie angered me as its design was to reduce Jesus as some brooding new age hippy. Just as the Shroud was renounced, and it's authentication discontinued indefinitely...this movie is just another part of the scheme of things.... All designed to take down Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Stay strong my friend.
That should be easy date it again why are we still talking about this I bet if y'all had the slightest hint of faith thats the first thing you would have done
It's an interesting subject. Whether it's real or not has absolutely no bearing on my faith in Jesus Christ Almighty God. However, when it concerns the shroud, it's one of two things: Either it's authentic, or somebody figured out how to do photography centuries earlier than thought. Why? Because unlike a painting or scorching, the shroud has three dimensional information within the fabric that's only seen in photography. People have tried to replicate this, but the only way it is done is via radiation in slices, much like a scanner. How someone, even in the middle ages if the shroud is a fraud, could've pulled it off kind of blows the mind.
@Obamalies100 Faith comes from the latin fides and the greek pistes which means "trust", so faith is evidence based. Hebrews can be summed up by something CS Lewis said once, "Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted in spite of your changing moods." People tend to think faith is only matters of religion but this is untrue. It applies to science too, for much of science relies on assumptions that cannot be proven. For example, mathematics. A peer reviewed paper entitled, "The Role of Faith in Mathematics," from Dick Wood of Seattle Pacific University: "In conclusion, we cannot avoid the realization that mathematics involves faith. Some see mathematics as the ultimate in intellectual rigor, I agree. However, we need to realize all of the basic assumptions, hiding nothing." As for the shroud, I venture to say that it's impossible to verify that it is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ Almighty God, but it's also difficult to explain how people either hundreds or thousands of years ago were able to create essentially photography. The shroud is a "document" of three dimensional information, and is therefore a photograph. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all 😊
@Obamalies100 The author of Hebrews uses evidence of the past, that the people already accept as true, to set up the argument that Jesus Christ Almighty God is true on the basis of evidence from eyewitness testimony from the author and from those who back up the author because they were eyewitnesses too. Mind you, the book of Hebrews was not written to unbelievers but to Jews who became Christians. These are letters to Christian churches/communities to address issues in those Christian churches/communities. That's the missing context here. They already believed in Jesus Christ Almighty God. What was the purpose of the book of Hebrews? Outlined in the link below: biblehub.com/summary/hebrews/1.htm Faith is superior, in short, to the old covenant made in the times of Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. But again, what is faith? It is our personal action on the basis of evidence that has already been demonstrated. Because Jesus Christ Almighty God resurrected and ascended into heaven, we have assurance that the things promised (yet to happen) will happen, therefore we act out our faith in Jesus Christ Almighty God.
@Obamalies100 I accepted Jesus Christ Almighty God as my Lord and Savior and Redeemer and Healer and Deliverer and God over my heart and life forever on February 12, 2004 😊 so I'm already saved through Jesus Christ Almighty God.
@Obamalies100 Your argument is not strong enough. You may as well be saying that Napoleon is to be doubted because none of us presently here on earth ever seen him. You might be interested in a Facebook page entitled "Did Abraham Lincoln Exist?" which uses atheist arguments (mockingly) to discredit Abraham Lincoln's existence. Now, mind you, the vast majority of scholars whether they be atheists or believers acknowledge that Jesus Christ Almighty God did indeed exist and that his trial and execution and the empty tomb and subsequent claims that Jesus Christ Almighty God resurrected from the dead by many witnesses are considered historical facts. Bart Ehrman, no friend of Christianity, himself wrote in one of his books: "Whether you like it or not Jesus of Nazareth existed." He further discredits those who claim that Jesus Christ Almighty God didn't exist, by pointing out that the "Jesus Mythists" are a lunatic fringe minority in scholarly pursuits that consist largely of amateurs with virtually no credibility what so ever. Btw, if YOU are a Christian and I am a Christian, then what are we arguing about here? It seems to me that you are making the bulk of your argument on your understanding of scripture rather than the consensus view throughout the centuries and millennia of what scripture says. This sounds like a denominational issue than anything else. I find it ironic that I have just as hard, if not a harder time, debating my fellow brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ Almighty God than I do atheists. These petty differences only make an unbelieving world look at the Christian church and think, "Why would I ever want involved in Christianity when all these people do is argue?" Now if you want to believe faith is something blind, when the book of John says, "These things are written so that you may believe," and they were eyewitnesses to Jesus Christ Almighty God's resurrection and ascension into heaven; and the Apostle Peter wrote: "For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain," etc--- then I do not know what to tell you. Frank Turek and others have argued against your very logic several times over the years. You may as well be saying that because something was proven ages ago, that since we ourselves did not witness it, we should not believe it. That's the undermining of all logic and reason, and anything that undermines logic and reason should not be taken seriously. Before you quip that last point would mean religion shouldn't be taken seriously, I would tell you that CS Lewis and several others pointed out long ago that if God doesn't exist then there is no logic and reason, for our logic and reason would merely be an illusion because our brains would merely be nothing more than atoms randomly colliding in our skulls for no rhyme or reason. You must FIRST have God in order for there to have logic and reason, as well as science. To quote the agnostic Paul Davies: "People take it for granted that the physical world is both ordered and intelligible. The underlying order in nature - the laws of physics - are simply accepted as given, as brute facts. Nobody asks where they came from; at least not in polite company. However, even the most atheistic scientist accepts AS AN ACT OF FAITH that the universe is not absurd, that there is a rational basis to physical existence manifested as law-like order in nature that is at least partly comprehensible to us. So science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological worldview." Lastly, the argument about the Jews taking their past history as a matter of faith, is basically a non-argument. You may as well be saying that every single American lives by faith that the Founding Fathers existed, and that the battles of the Revolutionary War are matters of faith that they happened. The events, places and people of The Bible are historically accurate, on the basis of archeological evidence and texts from the ancient world backing up biblical accounts. That's not to say everything has been discovered, but that the vast majority of the claims of The Bible has been verified. For example, the tower of babel has been a verified place of history. So when you say such things are matters of faith, I say that the actions of the people were acts of faith on the basis of factual evidence that they occurred. They actually occurred, were written down, etc--- just like our own histories have been written down. That's not to say history isn't altered or flat out lied about (ie, islam) but when archeological evidence and ancient texts back up a source, it gives incredible weight to the claims of the source. Therefore, we act in faith on that evidence. Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you and Jesus Christ Almighty God bless your family 😊
@Obamalies100 Sir... You are either an atheist pretending to be a Christian to cause chaos and division, or you are a wolf in sheep's clothing that comes in the name of Jesus Christ Almighty God but are not of Jesus Christ Almighty God, or you have got to be of a lunatic fringe minority view in Christianity that the vast majority of Christian's largely ignore like the Young Earth creationists. Yes Jesus Christ Almighty God did indeed die and Jesus Christ Almighty God did indeed resurrect from the dead and will one day return and it is by belief and trust in Jesus's resurrection from the dead that Jesus is Lord and Savior and Redeemer and Healer and Deliverer and God that we are all saved. Period. I am not going to argue with you any more. You need help. Jesus Christ Almighty God willing you will see the error of your ways and ask Jesus Christ Almighty God to forgive you.
Heathen The Heretic 2 Peter 3:3-4 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
There is nothing in ancient writings that proves Christ’s existence. Let us start with Philo-Judaeus (20 BC - 50 AD) Philo wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that J.C. is said to have existed on earth. Philo was living in or near Jerusalem when J.C.'s miraculous birth and Herod's massacre occurred. He was there when J.C. made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there for the crucifixion and all the world-shattering events that followed - earthquakes, the sun becoming dark at noon, the graves opening and the dead and long-dead saints roaming about the place., supposedly seen by many, also when J.C. himself rose from the dead and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven, but Philo saw nothing, heard nothing, wrote nothing. Flavius Josephus, the renowned Jewish historian, born 37 AD was a contemporary of the apostles. He was for a time the governor of Galilee, where J.C. lived and taught. Josephus wrote of every important event during the first 70 years AD but J.C. did not get a mention. Later the Josephus writings were interpolated and forgeries which mention J.C. added on. This short forgery was labelled by Bishop Warburton as "a rank forgery and a very stupid one too…" It is mentioned in the Church History, that this was the word of the very dishonest bishop Eusebius. The Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the forged passages were not known to Origen and earlier church writers. Justus Tiberius was a native of Galilee, he wrote a history covering the period of J.C.'s reputed existence. This work was destroyed, but Photius a Christian scholar and critic of the 9th century who was acquainted with it says that Justus made not a mention of J.C. or his wondrous works. There were also interpolations and forgeries in the works of Pliny the younger and historian Tacitus (who was born about 20 years after the purported death of J.C. Due to modern science, these are now recognized as forgeries by all scholars both Christian and secular. A total of about 40 to 50 interpolated lines are the only supporting evidence of the existence of J.C. a man-god who supposedly shook up the whole world of that period. The other historians of that time, Arrian, Lucius Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD) Dion Pruseus, Pliny the Elder, Pater Calus, Suetonius, Juvenal, Theon of Smyrna, Martial, Phlegon, Persius, Pompon Mela, Plutarch, Quintus Curtius, Lucian, Apollonius, Pausanias, Valerius Flaccus, Quintilian, Forus Lucius, Lucanus, Phaedrus, Epictetus, Damis, Silius Italicus, Alulus Geuius, Statius, Ptolemy, Columella, Diochry Sostom, Hermogones, Lysias, Valerius Maxiimus, Cornelius, Titus Livius, Cluvius Rufus, Publius Petronius (the Roman consul) who lived in Jerusalem. All these heard nothing, not a word was written about JC… And you have a 13th century cloth... Sounds like the church has pulled the biggest scam on you...
A research paper published in Thermochimica Acta suggests the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old. The Shroud of Turin is much older than suggested by radiocarbon dating carried out in the 1980s, according to a new study in a peer-reviewed journal.... Raymond Rogers says his research and chemical tests show the material used in the 1988 radiocarbon analysis was cut from a medieval patch woven into the shroud to repair fire damage. BBC News Jan. 31, 2005
It makes no difference to me because I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ anyway. A piece of cloth has no influence on my life but the spirit of God does. He lives, praise him.
The Bishop of Troyes literally wrote to the pope c. 1389 to tell him about how fake the shroud was, as well as the motives behind it. He even said that Henry of Poitiers, the Bishop at the time, had found the guy who had made it, who confessed to forging it. "the Dean of a certain collegiate church, to wit, that of Lirey, falsely and deceitfully, being consumed with the passion of avarice, and not from any motive of devotion but only of gain, procured for his church a certain cloth cunningly painted, upon which by a clever sleight of hand was depicted the twofold image of one man, that is to say, the back and front, he *falsely declaring and pretending that this was the actual shroud in which our Saviour Jesus Christ was enfolded in the tomb* , and upon which the whole likeness of the Saviour had remained thus impressed together with the wounds which He bore. This story was put about not only in the kingdom of France, but, so to speak, throughout the world, so that from all parts people came together to view it. And further to attract the multitude so that money might cunningly be wrung from them, *pretended miracles were worked* , certain men being hired to represent themselves as healed at the moment of the exhibition of the shroud, which all believed to the shroud of our Lord." Read it: priory-of-sion.com/biblios/links/memorandum.html Too many idols. Please don't venerate objects. Worship God.
Shameless Papist of course i have read my own citation. The author refers to themselves all over the letter, naming everyone involved, as well as the historical places involved. If you hold the position you are taking on this document as being some sort of super elaborate forgery, made for no good reason, then you might as well throw out the Gospels as well. Either way it doesn't matter. Do you know why King Hezekiah destroyed the bronze serpent?
Shameless Papist brother, I love the material evidences of our Lord. I just feel that if we let ourselves get wrapped up in veneration of things we call "holy" objects, regardless of their authenticity, then we will fall into error. Whether that burial shroud is real or fake, it's meaningless... you know? We have the Spirit of the Living God. We are walking temples, and the members of the body of Christ. The bronze serpent was destroyed, even though it was the literal authentic one that Moses made, because people were venerating it and treating it as if it was worthy of honor. God doesn't want graven images, even of Himself. If we keep that prominent in our hearts and minds then we can discuss things like this shroud without thinking that God's authenticity is tied to it somehow. God bless you brother.
And this is a prime example of why many religious scholars and apologist’s are considered so intellectually dishonest . The Shroud has been collectively considered to not be authentic but apologists like Habermas just can’t seem to realize that supporting things such as the shroud just end up destroying their credibility in the end . I’m in desperate search for an intellectually honest Christian apologist - any suggestions out there ? ✌🏼
You know we do have historical evidence of the shroud in the 4th century and then again in the 6th and not to mention that’s it’s a first century weave with 1st century Roman scourge wounds. We also have pollen evidence that goes back to Jerusalem and you mix that in with the image being created by a burst of radiation and the fact that you can see teeth and bones in the image plus the fluent vp8 image and you can see why Christians take this shroud so seriously
What about the photo negative image? Some of it did seem to test for 1st century Judea right? Didn't those tests that show it was 13th century turn out to be done of repaired sections?
STURP team spent over two years preparing a series of tests that would gather a vast amount of Shroud data in a relatively short period of time. STURP's primary goal was to determine the scientific properties of the image on the Shroud of Turin, and what might have caused it: After years of exhaustive study and evaluation of the data, STURP issued its Final Report in 1981. "We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist." "The answer to the question of how the image was produced or what produced the image remains, now, as it has in the past, a mystery." “There are no chemical or physical methods known which can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological or medical circumstances explain the image adequately.” The STRUP team included three Jewish members, one Mormon, one Evangelical, several Catholics, several Protestants and some avowed atheists and agnostics. - they are (33) all top notch scientist and engineers from respected agencies/corporations. Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* Lockheed Corporation* U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories* Brooks Institute of Photography* University of Colorado* Oceanographic Services Inc.* Nuclear Technology Corporation* U.S. Air Force Academy* Jet Propulsion Laboratory* Sandia National Laboratory*, etc. They did not say it is Jesus Christ on the image. They did say that it is not man made.. It is an image of a man, with a cap of thorns, scourged and crucified. His legs were not broken and he is pierced on the side with a lance.
The shroud of Turin is something we can't simply DISMISS as an impossibility. That much I know. There seems to be something very UNIQUE here... But was it INDEED the burial shroud of Jesus? I don't know. And I've heard too much conflicting information, to come down either way. Recently, forensic research has supposedly demonstrated it to be a fake. EITHER WAY, Christ is risen! He is risen INDEED!
recently someone took I think some genetic information from it, and concluded a blood group, and identified that group with a local group, not the jews. That would put a big stick in the judeic narrative, and would really change our reading of the bible new vs old etc. How legitimate is this evidence, i cant tell, but I have heard that this was the case
@@brando3342 It is vague and the reason i cant be more specific is because I simply dont remember, the program was on television and centered around the findings of several researchers who did simultaneous tests, and all came up with the same result, which of course blew them away, and then when we see the current narrative blew them away even more but it did frame and put into perspective some more of the history of Jesus etc. I regret not properly sitting down all the way to the end to actually get the name of these people and their study... instead im left with basically hearsay
How do they know it’s Jesus? No man alive today has seen Jesus in the flesh, and there is no biblical record that tells us what he looked like apart from him being unrecognizable after his crucifixion. We know he was a Jew & had a beard. Ancient Jews had beards, light tan skin, short black hair, apart from those that took the Nazarite vow who had long hair. Jesus was from Nazareth but didn’t take the Nazarite vow as there’s no biblical evidence of him doing so. Plus the Bible clearly states that, No man has see God at any time and lived John 1 v 18. Is very ironic how many Roman Catholics have pictures of a European white Gentile Jesus with long hair & some with blond hair. 1Corinthians 11v 14. Exodus 20 v 4 commands us not to make images of things in heaven or on earth. Therefore in my opinion & according to the clear teaching of scripture this shroud of Turin is a medieval fake. Period.
I'm not sure about the shroud, but about God Jesus existent, i have no doubts! He is God Himself, who was in the form of God, but became in flesh to save all believers in Him! There are MILLIONS testimonies about God Jesus Christ only in the internet! God bless you! Maranatha!
@@НатанаилСталев-ф2р millions of testimonies equals evidence? Hahahahaha only theists believe that crap and ONLY for THEIR particular god. For all other gods, they become atheist. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@Shameless Papist what gibberish are u spewing. Billions of people telling me a "fact" does not make it a fact. That a fallacy, theist. We can prove the sun exist not only via eyewitness but we can use instruments to measure the amount of heat radiating fro.the sun. The amount of photons, etc With your bible, all u have are CLAIMS of people making more CLAIMS. U dont have evidence.
@Shameless Papist in our court of law, eyewitness testimony is never good evidence and is not reliable. Not even close. Arebu telling me that eye witness account is reliable? Beiseds.... you theists only have CLAIMS of people CLAIMING to see. U have ZERO eye witness to ANY supernatural event. The above paragraph is the ONLY point. Anything else is just gibberish
No. The man depicted is clearly a medieval European man in his 50s. You can tell from the hairstyle. We know what 1st century Jews looked like from contemporary coins and synagogue paintings. The Fayum mummy portraits are very helpful as well. This is most certainly not Jesus.
Guys whether the shroud is authentic or not it doesn’t matter!! The source of our faith/where our faith is anchored is in Jesus Christ Himself Who at Heaven sitting at The Right Hand of The Power and His Perfect Word The Bible NOT in a piece of cloth!!!!!
The STURP team - "We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist." It is not made by man, and in all circumstances it appears to be Jesus Christ, as described in the bible. Occam's razor (principle of parsimony) - "the simplest explanation is usually the best one." - It is the image of Jesus Christ on the shroud.
Anything can appear like Jesus Christ when there isn’t anything describing what he looks like lmao(which isn’t surprising considering the fact that the only eyewitness account is from someone who never met Jesus ).
@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50 The reality is this: science has proved that it is not made by man, and there really was a dead man draped in that burial shroud and that this dead man suffered exactly the same tortures as Jesus of Nazareth, as reported in the Gospels. A man scourged (scourging was not done for one being put to death), with a crown of thorns (as a mockery of him being the "King of the Jews"), speared on his side, and no broken legs. (The two thieves crucified with him had their legs broken to hasten their death.)
@@jotunman627 umm no there is no evidence that the shroud was wrapped around somebody and 3 different labs dated it to the Middle Ages sorry you really can’t logically say it’s the burial cloth of Jesus lmao all it is, is a cloth with a weird face on it. Also since you find the gospels reliable can you tell me who wrote them and why they decided to live 2 times as long as the life expectancy and then decades after the events happened decided to write down the events while copying from each other thank you.
@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50 The image on the linen is barely visible to the naked eye, and wasn't identified at all until 1898, when it became apparent in the negative image of a photograph taken by Secondo Pia, an amateur Italian photographer. Secondo Pia's photograph showed that the image on the cloth is a negative The radio carbon dating is passé, a long time ago. They used wrong samples STRUP team final report: "We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist".
@@jotunman627 wow so much baseless claims. Do you have evidence that the samples the scientist used were as you said it wrong samples? Also what does the image being negative have to do with anything?
Six months before in my vision i saw : Heaven and LORD JESUS face to face on white horse ❤️ ! LORD JESUS IS GOD ❤️ ADONAI❤️ in Flesh ! Stop doubting Israel and Repent IN JESUS NAME ❤️ ADONAI❤️ ! No more time , We are Last generation ! Shalom .
Maybe it is possible to use specially tuned lasers to make the image on the Shroud. But there are severe difficulties because they would have to put out a 360 degree output, with complete equality of the output in every direction. The tuning would have to be specially accurate to avoid going through all the depth of the Shroud itself. I don’t believe that laser scientists can do it now. Laser crystals are notoriously difficult to manufacture and control. I think we just have to face reality. This incident was supernatural. Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
@@ChristRegin You are correct. Industrial lasers are notoriously difficult to tune and monitor to remain tuned. My son-in-law is a laser optics engineer. This is the main reason why they are so expensive and difficult to mass produce. In order to "burn" an image on the exterior fibers of the Shroud, the lasers would have to be exquisitely tuned in exact match for the thickness of the Shroud in each millimeter, and fire electronically using a computer. If you consider the level of electronic sophistication required to burn on the image, it is probably outside of our present industrial capability. And it would cost millions of dollars to attempt it. Building the exposure enclosure would probably cost 2-5 million dollars alone. Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
@@rickojay7536 I don't wish to be unkind, but your post makes no sense. I'm sure it is clear to you but you are not communicating it to us. I have generally found that sarcasm is very difficult to pull-off in written form. I've tried it and it usually fell flat. Instead, I would respectfully suggest you just "say what you mean and mean what you say." I'm not a Christian. I'm sure I can deal with it. Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
Keep your faith in a single cell more complex than all the computer programs ever created by man crawling out of a primordial soup pool on a hostile planet by accident lol
@@kevinrouse8469 if you want to talk about evolution thats a scientific topic not atheistic the fact that a lot of atheists accept it is because of the evidence presented
The shroud and the physical appearance of Lord Jesus In an article in Newsweek magazine of September 19, 1988 entitled «the ever mysterious Shroud» mentioned that three workshops, one in Zurich, one in Oxford and one in Tucson, Arizona, is ready to give a report, after study, to date construction of the famous sindonis (shroud) Turin. The article clearly states that: "If the rumors are correct the the laboratories answers to the authenticity of the shroud that IS DEFINITETLY NO, because in Arizona they have dated it with the method of carbon and they found out that it was constructed in 1350 AD! In continuing, the article highlights the fact that those who lead the research, made the impossible possible to keep the results of the test highly secret! Twenty five years have passed since then, and now we can see the logic of what the owners of the “shroud” should have done if the shroud was proven by science to be 2000 years old, or on the other hand what they should have done if it was proven to be false! The only reasonable conclusion that can be made from this whole story is that this “shroud” talk about never covered the body of Christ and the drawings upon does not reflect the face of Lord Jesus. A letter from Pilates to Tiberius about Lord Jesus Christi describing the physical apearence/characteristics of Lord Jesus) According to Pilates letter, Lord Jesus was very handsome, his hair was red like his face had a rose-white color and he continues to on to say that the light on his face seems to come out from the sun ~it is so bright~ that no one is able to see it. ua-cam.com/video/ezItFNpdnVY/v-deo.html Lord Jesus did not come to bring a new philosophy on earth but to remake man into a new creation a godman part man part god by the Grace of God! For this, He created the Church as a therapeutic institution to cure man from sin to enable him this way back to the presence of his Creator God! [Mathew5:8] “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God”. The letter to Platus (sorry only in Greek) iliaxtida.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/pilatos/ Jesus did not come to teach philosophically but THERAPEUTICALLY. (to cure man from sin beginning with BAPTISM to enable him this way back to the presence of God! www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/03/the-foundations-of-orthodox.html God bless
A research paper published in Thermochimica Acta suggests the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old. The Shroud of Turin is much older than suggested by radiocarbon dating carried out in the 1980s, according to a new study in a peer-reviewed journal.... Raymond Rogers says his research and chemical tests show the material used in the 1988 radiocarbon analysis was cut from a medieval patch woven into the shroud to repair fire damage. BBC News Jan. 31, 2005
“Then Aaron shall come into the tent of meeting and shall take off the linen garments that he put on when he went into the Holy Place and shall leave them there." -Lev 16:23 "Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself." John 20:6-7 2 Timothy 4:13 “When you come, bring [The Cloak] that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books, and above all the parchments.” Psalm 102:25-27 (Hebrews 1:10-14) "Of old you laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end."
Jim Merrilees Rebuke your satanic Masonic ways Jim. Get away from those good ol’boys clubs, Elks, Lodges etc. and do something for yourself. Have some integrity and honesty with what you study and discover, because you’re only lying to yourself brother Jim.
Jim Merrilees Tsk tsk. I’m disappointed you’ve already sullied your intelligence by using elementary mocking tactics. I love how your response completely dodged my accurate accusations though, I do so love when demons can’t be honest in the face of truth and revelation. Weak willed man. You’re lying to yourself. You’re full of it. Your life style and sins cannot see co-existence with an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being that goes beyond limitations of foundations in the clouds, let alone the stratosphere, well beyond the Mesosphere, all in all an ever transcendent being that existed outside the frame work of creation, the dimensions of time and space being laid out from his origin. A universe from nothing and the atheist mind set is one of pure immature self indulgence and mental masturbation as the living remnant to the wraith that was Satan, and you all live out his Ego through your own ID. But you are my brother. Don’t be so naive. And integrity and I are clearly more bonded than a man who can’t even be honest over a simple chat. And you as my little brother I must let you know, you’re being a chode.
Jim Merrilees *Wisdom Of Solomon 2:1-24* 1 For the ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright, Our life is short and tedious, and in the death of a man there is no remedy: neither was there any man known to have returned from the grave. 2 For we are born at all adventure: and we shall be hereafter as though we had never been: for the breath in our nostrils is as smoke, and a little spark in the moving of our heart: 3 Which being extinguished, our body shall be turned into ashes, and our spirit shall vanish as the soft air, 4 And our name shall be forgotten in time, and no man shall have our works in remembrance, and our life shall pass away as the trace of a cloud, and shall be dispersed as a mist, that is driven away with the beams of the sun, and overcome with the heat thereof. 5 For our time is a very shadow that passeth away; and after our end there is no returning: for it is fast sealed, so that no man cometh again. 6 Come on therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are present: and let us speedily use the creatures like as in youth. 7 Let us fill ourselves with costly wine and ointments: and let no flower of the spring pass by us: 8 Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds, before they be withered: 9 Let none of us go without his part of our voluptuousness: let us leave tokens of our joyfulness in every place: for this is our portion, and our lot is this. 10 Let us oppress the poor righteous man, let us not spare the widow, nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged. 11 Let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth. 12 Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraideth us with our offending the law, and objecteth to our infamy the transgressings of our education. 13 He professeth to have the knowledge of God: and he calleth himself the child of the Lord. 14 He was made to reprove our thoughts. 15 He is grievous unto us even to behold: for his life is not like other men's, his ways are of another fashion. 16 We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father. 17 Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him. 18 For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. 19 Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience. 20 Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected. 21 Such things they did imagine, and were deceived: for their own wickedness hath blinded them. 22 As for the mysteries of God, they knew them not: neither hoped they for the wages of righteousness, nor discerned a reward for blameless souls. 23 For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity. 24 Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it. [disclaimer: Your world view is no different from the atheist of Solomon’s time, no different from ante diluvian atheist, no different. Still immature and selfish. Grow up Jim. It’s time.]
Christ’s Apostles explained that it is a shame for a man to grow long hair. Then, it is certain that Christ did not have long hair either, and as we can see he has long hair on that shroud, which makes no sense.
According to Jewish traditions and laws, they did not have long hair, but if the Shroud of Turin is true and it is not fake ... it could be how evidence that Jesus could have long hair. Today's researchers reject the idea that he was long-haired and promote the curly Jesus.
We read in John 19: 38-40 that Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea took Christ's body and prepared it for burial using 75 lbs of aromatic spices and ointments. From what I understand, there is no residue of such spices on this cloth. Shouldn't there be?
Didnt the recent tests they already did answer this question? Why do we have to keep asking this question repeatedly? How many more tests do you have to do to decide once and for all whether it is genuine???
Only through Jesus we have eternal life ✝️🕊💞 Romans 5:8 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 2 Corinthians 5:21 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Romans 6:23 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 14:6 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Romans 8:38-39 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Hebrews 4:12 KJV "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 13:16 "And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased." ... These are the sacrifices that please God."
@@Durnyful It's not a matter of basing your faith on a relic but being happy in having or seeing one, specially the burial cloth of Jesus. Can you really deny this?
@@Durnyful But that wasn't what you were arguing in your first post. The point is that the shroud of Jesus would certainly be something great to have or see.
The fact this is actually a debate says a lot!!!!!!! We don't debate the existence of my best friend nor my dog! Nor do i debate the existence of anyone im talking to. Or even the orange president we have in the USA today. Yet, for some strange reason, this one (or many) jesus guy(s) we have no clue about. 🤔🤔🤔 Hmmmmmm
It is worth recognising that he Shroud of Turin has a large conflict with the Gospel of John because that suggests Jesus had a second burial cloth for the head, which he shroud does not have. Also, please don't say the Shroud of Turin was formed by "radiation", as that conjures up the idea of x-rays, which are far too penetrating to cause the effect he is describing. A bit of searching reveals that the actual 'radiation' theory is referring to ultraviolet light. If you mean ultraviolet light, please just say ultraviolet light, not 'radiation'.
@@Lone-Lee Yes, but so does visible light. Generally "radiation" conjures up images of x-rays and such unless otherwise specified, so to be clear it's better to just say "ultraviolet light".
Interesting... I'm considering whether or not to include the Shroud in my own paper on the Resurrection. It attempts to be conclusive and cover all commonly used arguments and established facts, etc., but I have always considered the Shroud as being too controversial for me to add it. What do you think?
Caleb Peppiatt google Father Spitzer's article "Science and the Shroud of Turin", there is some very interesting information there. It is certainly an interesting bit of evidence, at the very least we could say that the Resurrection would provide a neat explanation to the Shroud, while no-Resurrection it is hard to explain how such an image would be formed like that, especially since we cannot even to this day correctly reproduce it with traditional methods
@@derekmizer6293 I see that you are dismissing a case before actually examining it with the evidence that it claims to contain. Thus, if you are unwilling to view the arguments and evidence of the opposition, your own beliefs are not based off of evidence at all. You should at least consider reading it, because it seems clear to me that you have not investigated the subject.
The image on the shroud was created the same way we do today with X-rays the thing is they didnt have X-ray machines in 33AD !!! so my theory is controversial, Jesus was an Alien and these ETs used advanced tech to bring him back to life again
Its simple Jesus died for our sins and defeated death now if we believe in Jesus and live righteously and repent of our sins we can return to our GOD one day read your bible Jesus is our savior and king in we have salvation
@@rickojay7536 Even though the Sci Fi channel used my theory in their documentary and Dr Michio Kaku said it happened too and he's a lot smarter than you , Flat Earther
@@InteractiveIdea I'll have to say it's miraculous in it's perfection. We cannot replicate it today with all the tech we have. But what if I reverse it to you if you have read on it.. how is it not miraculous?
all i can say is this, that the scriptures are full of prophecy and history that is accurate, and the truth about Jesus is recorded in the gospels and also the coming of Jesus for told in the old testament even the apostle Paul in the book of Acts speaks about Jesus the son of God, and everything that we need to know about Jesus and the Kingdom of God is very well explained in the bible, however not a single hint is mentioned in the Holy Scriptures of Jesus leaving behind a trace of himself on a cloth that would be able to tell the world that this is himself and the whole world can see what I looked like. So in my humble opinion the shroud of Turin is not the image of Christ, it could be a picture or image of anyone at the time but not the son of God, because for something as profound as this it would have been fore told in the scriptures I have no doubt of that.
*Isaias **52:14* *¡Su rostro fue desfigurado!* En dicha sábana su imagen, su rostro, está completo. Con esa sola descripción, declara su falsedad. Gracias!
@Beverly Hurd OK, let me rephrase, we couldn't make 'The Great Pyramid' today with copper saws and chisels. And even with all our modern tools and machinery, it would take us a lot longer than 20 years to build it. Yet the experts tell us that that was how long it took the builders to build it using just copper saws, chisels, and some pullies.
@@Jahson70 The thing is, no knows for 100% sure how the pyramids were built, how many people were doing it and what all tools and time they had. I will agree that it was quite the accomplishment. But you are way off thinking that modem man with all his current tools and machinery could not do it in 20 years. That's pretty silly. I would say 2-3 years would be more than enough time.
@Beverly Hurd Now, who's being silly? All of the brown limestone blocks (average weight being 2 tonnes) are not even the same size, they're all different shapes and sizes, so we are not talking about a mass manufacturing effeort, each block is unique. But even if it was a straightforward all the same size and shape, for us to be able to do that today, we would have to quarry, transport, cut, shape and fit one block every 8 minutes working around the clock for 20 years. To do it in 2-3 years, well, I let you do the math.
@@Jahson70 Well fine. If you really think that 6000 years ago man did that with his bare hands in 20 years but today it cannot be done in a much shorter time using multi ton bulldozers, cranes and even helicopters then you are nothing short of delusional.
The image on the Shroud or Turin is not Jesus, it is image of Jaques DeMolay, the last Grand Master of the Knights Templar. He was mock crucified by the Inquisition. The features of DeMolay's body were etched on the cloth by the lactic acid from the free flowing blood, reacting with the frankincense used as a whitening agent which was rich in calcium carbonate. The long nose, the hair beyond shoulder length with a center part, the full beard that forked at the base & the fit looking 6 ft frame all perfectly match the known image of DeMolay. The image that the world has come to love is the face of God, is in fact the face of a man tortured & murdered in God's name, not by the Roman Church, but by a money-grubbing French king with the support of the Roman Catholic Church.
IF this is authentic it would be made by Jesus Christ Himself, not man, and surely would be left behind as a witness to His death and resurrection, NOT to be worshiped. (Speaking of Jesus) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Colossians 1:15)
With all of the scientific evidence that people are seeking to authenticate the shroud of Turin as a genuine relic of Christ, they seem to all overlook the biblical evidence that plainly debunks the shroud of Turin being associated with Jesus in any way. First of all, the image on the shroud has long hair. Jesus was a devout Judean. Another devote Judean, the Apostle Paul, plainly says, “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?” (1 Corinthians 11:14) Jesus was from Nazarene, so some will claim that Jesus took a nazirite vow, because He said on the cross that He would not drink wine until He drinks it new in the Kingdom. And as Samson who took the nazirite vow, Jesus supposedly took the vow also. The vow is described in Numbers 6:1-21. "Nazirite" comes from the Hebrew word “nazir" meaning "consecrated" or "separated". This vow required the person during this designated time to: Abstain from all wine and anything else made from the grape vine plant. Refrain from cutting the hair on one's head; but to allow the locks of the head's hair to grow. Not to become ritually impure by contact with corpses or graves, even those of family members. If Jesus did make this vow, He didn't do it until He was on the cross. Jesus came into contact with several corpses and graves, and He drank wine before His crucifixion, so that would have nullified the vow had it be made before the cross. Nonetheless, even if He had taken the vow and had long hair, it still cannot be His image on the shroud of Turin, because of the other evidence that disproves it as genuine. Secondly, the image on the shroud has a short beard, when Judeans grew long beards according to scripturally-based tradition. Also, Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would have His beard plucked out. “I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.” (Isaiah 50:6) And finally, the most conclusive evidence of all that the shroud cannot possibly be connected to Jesus is this. The shroud is one piece of cloth and the Bible plainly says that the burial clothes of Jesus consisted of two pieces of cloth. One for His body and another for His head. “Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.” (John 20:3-7) The shroud is yet another attempt by Roman Catholic Church to present something in no way connected with Christ as a holy relic, to be venerated by believers. This is nothing short of idolatry, which is forbidden by God's 2nd commandment. The evidence is clear. The shroud of Turin is not connected with Jesus and is mostly likely a elaborate hoax. If people would only study the scriptures for themselves, rather than accepting every false claim as genuine, they would be armed with the truth and be able to resist these senseless claims.
@Jerry Poplin So then, you believe the very few people who have studied (in depth) the authenticity of the shroud over God's word? Now that would be stupid.
@Jerry Poplin I have seen several studies that completely debunk it. I believe God's word over 1,000 humans. The Bible says that Christ's grave clothes were two separate pieces of cloth, one for His body and one for His head. Believe what you want. I'll be going with God on this one and every other human dispute.
@Jerry Poplin Wow, the insults just keep coming. First I' m stupid and now I'm unintelligent. What a nice person you are. Are you one of those who expects tolerance from everyone else, yet will not tolerate someone with a difference of opinion without insulting their intelligence? I think so.
@Jerry Poplin Again with the insults. There are no legitimate facts that can authenticate the shroud, if the word of God plainly contradicts those facts to utter shame. And I knew that you would make the comparison to the word stupid and unintelligent, because that would be typical of someone who does't have a leg to stand on to misdirect the discussion by insulting the other party. I was merely pointing out that you first implied that I was stupid and then in the next comment implied that I was unintelligent. I never said that they meant something different. But I knew that you would go there because, well, your...
One fine point disqualifies the Shroud: "Jesus"--his real name Yahshua--was a Jew. Jews didn't have long hair--despite every icon or painting you ever saw. They were commanded by Torah to keep their hair trimmed (except during a Nazirite vow) and had he violated that, He would not have been sinless. I was a Shroud "fan" for a long time until I began learning Torah.
How do you define "long hair"? Do you have a Biblical definition of acceptable male hair length? I do not think the Scriptures anywhere stipulate the maximum hair length, except to say, as in Saint Paul, that a man must not have long hair like a woman. That might imply that women ought to have really long hair, and men a much shorter length, but how long is not defined. If women choose to have shorter hair length today, that does not mean the acceptable norm for men should be even shorter. Beware of reading too much into the Scriptures.
@@anselman3156 it can be hard to have a biblical definition of what long hair is since the people who wrote the Bible wrote it decades after the events happened.
It is as real as the sun and and the moon. Daring to doubt it is insane. However, the Lord came to save siners not the righteous. So repent and believe the Gospel. Amen. Te Amo, Te Amo, Te Amo, Thank you..God bless. ☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️🌝🌝🌝🌝🌝🌝🌝♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
Uhh doesn’t the shroud belong to the Catholic Church who once said they had the bones of Peter then found out later Peter grave was found in Jerusalem Don’t believe this specially when the shroud belongs to the Catholic Church
Andre Carvalho False. The repaired and clearly added sewn parts of the Shroud were taken for those samples in the late 80s and those carbon datings line up with who was in possession of the Shroud at that time, they align with the damages. But the part of the image of the Shroud with the fine linen was never dated during those false examinations, of later parties involved have admitted to false testimony.
So the Vatican, when it provided the sample, meant to play a bit of a game. A bit like God in relation to ancient fossils. It’s all a test of people’s faith.
That late date has been proven to have been caused by contamination. The Shroud of Turin is indeed the authentic burial cloth of Jesus Christ . I have this from the Highest of Authorities.....
Argument from authority is literally the name of a logical fallacy. The bit of cloth was provided by the Vatican and was tested independently by three laboratory. The results were revealed only after the three tests had been completed. There is a difference of decades between two of the tests, and the third one estimated a date roughly a century later.
@@andrecarvalho3020 Think about it: the Vatican wouldn't know that the piece of cloth they provided was a part of the repaired section before it was tested, so your argument is weak. If in fact the piece that was provided was contaminated by repair fibers from the middle ages, then of course the dating results would consistently show a later date, if in fact their methodology was sound. Problem is, though, the original datings were not consistent; statistical analyses have been done demonstrating that the results are unreliable. The second link I provided is to a paper by the lead chemist who first examined the Shroud, arguing why the section that was sampled was most certainly contaminated by repair fibers the Middle Ages. He also used a vanillin dating test, which indicated a much older date. Three subsequent datings have also shown a date much earlier than the Middle Ages. Here's the abstract for one of those subsequent datings: www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/S0218539317500061
If you believed the authenticity of the shroud, by extension, you are basically saying Jesus never resurrected. A body wrapped by a burial cloth for 3-4 days cannot make an impression like that. Secondly, how tall is the person in that shroud?
When the best of Science and Technology can not explain how the image was created; and also when with the best of Science and Technology one cannot produce an object like the Shroud, it is better to listen to the voice of Faith. There can be only one original, but fakes can be as many as you make. But no one can create even one fake like the Shroud because it is the Only One Original.
I think that has been explained for quite sometime you take it or leave it And by reproducing it depends on what you mean do you mean making a dead body ommit light or In which case No one can because it never happened Or is it reproducing the the actual cloth in which case its super easy no one just takes it seriously
@Ju Err Oh, is that right? Then please present the peer reviewed science that confirms this is a first century burial cloth and then the science that somehow confirms this is necessarily the Jesus referred to in the anonymously written gospels PS Stop liking your own comment, it's lame
@Ju Err Debunked eh? Perhaps you ought to read up yourself... www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turin-shroud-latest-fake-forgery-scientific-blood-pattern-spatter-study-carbon-dating-debunked-a8450101.html
I am a dedicated Shroudie and researched it quite a bit. search on "ray woods shroud carbon dating" for an atheist scientist who confirmed before his death that the carbon dating was flawed/wrong. The three samples were taken from the same small corner and sent to three separate labs. Yes, they got "late" results, but in that corner was later material that was added to repair the frayed corner. The process is called "invisible french weave" and it consisted of adding a patch that was carefully woven into the original fabric and then dyed to match the Shroud. There are a few secular documentaries on this controversy. Every other data point supports the Shroud -- linen weave, pollen, descriptions from history and matching blood stains on the Soudarium of Oviedo, which is said to be the cloth wrapped around His head.
M C can you show your research? Because I read a lot about it and I can say it’s most def not fake. They found blood on it researched the blood and no human has the blood it was found on it. Because there were no X chromosomes in it. Also nobody can fake such an artefact NOBODY I hear some people claim that it’s from the Middle Ages but this also isn’t true because the shroud was almost burnt in a fire and they took the corner piece of the shroud that was almost burned. So they based the dating on the fire that occurd. God bless
@@vazgl100 well sir it doesn't matter what the Vatican says because its not an official church teaching. So people can decide themselves. The Vatican is not infallible in all matters. Also there are enough scientists and people inside the Vatican that do believe its the real deal.
Even if it was dated to 2000 years ago, how do you show that it belonged to one particular man? There must have been tens of thousands of bearded men who were crucified at the time.
@@skyhr true, only the "king of the Jews" had a crown of thorns...and his legs were not broken, unlike the two thieves who were crucified with him, their legs were broken.
Also, I don't think there were "tens of thousands" of people crucified. Crucifixion was a rare form of execution reserved only for the worst criminals, to my knowledge. And again, the crown of thorns and unbroken legs shown in the shroud narrows it down extremely.
@@skyhr The STURP team - "We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist." “The answer to the question of how the image was produced or what produced the image remains, now, as it has in the past, a mystery.” So, it is not made by man, and in all circumstance (forensic) it appears to be Jesus Christ, as described in the bible. Occam's razor (principle of parsimony) - "the simplest explanation is usually the best one." - It is the image of Jesus Christ on the shroud.
I imagine if you sculpted a Christ figure. And then you painted it and had oil on it. Then left it out in the sun and heated it. Afterwards placed the cloth on it. Maybe whatever residue on it will evaporate onto the cloth. Who knows..
FTIR was used along with neutron activation analysis they both look for organic, or inorganic paint residue and NOTHING was found. Besides the image fibers would have darkened DEEPER into the fiber with a paint because of the WICKING effect. WICKING of cloth fibers always happens due to the properties of plant fibers and any liquid substance. It's how water gets sucked up into the tree to feed upper trunk and leaves.
Not confirming or denying anything about the shroud cause I really don't know, but if people are willing to deny the shrouds authenticity without evidence, and when presented with at least unusual evidence still deny, their probably never going to be convinced no matter where the truth would take them. This kind of thinking unfortunately has taken over modern atheism(talking about uneducated atheists). Some atheists won't even admit Jesus existed..
@@joshuaphilip7601 The evidence that Jesus existed is very thin. There isn't a single original manuscript from the first century that describes him, there isn't any contemporary source of any kind about him, there is no archaeological sources or numismatic (coin) evidence for his existence. Plus, whilst there may have been an historical Jesus, that doesn't mean that much or even any of the events in the Gospels took place (walking on water, raising people from the dead etc.), so there's really nothing odd or ridiculous about saying that he didn't exist at all.
The image on the shroud is too complex to be a forgery and has 3D info on it. Our modern technology couldn’t replicate it, so why think it’s a forgery? Also Josephus, Tacitus(the greatest Roman historian), the Talmud, the gospels, the epistles and more disagree with you.
My biggest doubt about the Shroud is the multiple, independent carbon dating tests that place it around the 13th century. If enough people upvote this comment, I’ll organize a live discussion on the Shroud!
I am a dedicated Shroudie and researched it quite a bit.
search on "ray woods shroud carbon dating" for an atheist scientist who confirmed before his death that the carbon dating was flawed/wrong.
The three samples were taken from the same small corner and sent to three separate labs.
Yes, they got "late" results, but in that corner was later material that was added to repair the frayed corner.
The process is called "invisible french weave" and it consisted of adding a patch that was carefully woven into the original fabric and then dyed to match the Shroud.
There are a few secular documentaries on this controversy.
Every other data point supports the Shroud -- linen weave, pollen, descriptions from history and matching blood stains on the Soudarium of Oviedo, which is said to be the cloth wrapped around His head.
BTW, the Shroud is real.
Capturing Christianity do look into it. Look up Father Spitzer's article "Science and the Shroud of Turin". This topic is quite fascinating. I think one of the most impressive things about the shroud is how hard it is to replicate it. We can't seem to get it right, no matter how much we try.
I can truly understand your point of view on the matter. Yet I must beg the question. How would it prove that it was yashua who wore the shroud and not a really popular rabbi from the 1st century
Heathen The Heretic
*Hebrews **7:24**-28* NT
“24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.”
Leviticus 16 *The Day of Atonement* OT
Lev 16:2-4 & 23
“For I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat. 3 But in this way Aaron shall come into the Holy Place: with a bull from the herd for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering. 4 He shall put on the holy linen coat and shall have the linen undergarment on his body, and he shall tie the linen sash around his waist, and wear the linen turban; these are the holy garments. (See also; Daniel 10 & 12)
. . .
23 “Then Aaron shall come into the tent of meeting and shall take off the linen garments that he put on when he went into the Holy Place and shall leave them there.”
*John 20:6-7*
“6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus' head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself.”
*Psalm 102:25-27* OT
“25 Of old you laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They will perish, but you will remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
27 but you are the same, and your years have no end”
@@MadolcheGabbana what does any of this have to do with the shroud actually being worn by Jesus.
I swear some of you are so far gone to the point a simple question becomes an answer filled with crap and totally off subject.
Nothing you wrote proves that Jesus ever existed yet alone does it prove that yashua wore it!
Why is this so hard for believers to understand
I believe in the shroud of Turin. It’s not just the image, it’s the blood that matches the Eucharistic miracles, the image of the flow of blood, the enzymes in the blood, the 2000 years old flower pollen, the image of the coin on the eyes. The fact that it’s so detailed and can never be replicated.
Not to mention the absence of Y chromosome in the blood suggesting not conceived by a man
Ray Downing was able to create a 3D image of the man on the shroud with computer technology using the microscopic data on the shroud that is actually a negative photograph. Because of his work, we know what the man who was wrapped in that shroud actually looked like. That is some crazy shizzle.
@@gmhq6101 Very interesting. Could you give me a source to read about that? Thanx🙏
The Eucharistic miracles are FALSE nobody has proven is JESUS BLOOD because there are no records to confirm it
If it was real, people would be touching it to heal themselves. Just like the Bible story of the sick woman who touched Jesus’s clothing while he was walking in the crowd
I totally believe, as a Catholic Christian. I’m totally convinced. I have faith, and total faith in this image on the Shroud, it is the image of Jesus Christ, crucified. Thank you Jesus. 🙏🙏🙏❤️
Hey Ann.. I've got a really nice bridge to sell you. I'll even give you a big discount!
Believe in God, not on a shroud depicting God. Even if the shroud is authentic, nobody can be saved by putting our faith in the image of Jesus' corporeal form. Walk not by sight, but by faith always. Because without faith it is impossible to please God.
What you believe on faith alone requires no scientific proof as support. If the Shroud were shown 100% to be a forgery tomorrow, your faith would be untouched.
@voldmerot pointless comment. She literally said she believes in her first few words!
@voldmerot this is the most Protard comment I've seen in months on UA-cam considering the comment you replied with it to - total fool.
The pieces that were removed for carbon dating was on the periphery of the shroud and later discovered to have been repaired with dyed cotton using a weave repair method known as "invisible weaving". This repair happened in sixteenth century. Since the original linen had acquired a "patina" over the centuries, and linen doesn't accept dyeing, cotton was used which could be dyed to match the patina. This repair wasn't noticed until years after an original investigator, Ray Rogers used a light microscope on a strip he saved from the pieces cut for carbon dating. This weave with new and old fibres nullifies the date once accepted for the shroud.
But the dating is 14 th century not 16th
The section of the Shroud used as a sample for carbon dating was specifically selected because it was the original cloth and unpatched. The 'invisible patch' theory was a coping mechanism concocted by shroudists to keep the mystery of the Shroud alive. To believe this theory, you must believe that medieval weavers had the skill to patch the Shroud so well that the patch was indistinguishable from the original cloth.
Jesus Christ is my saviour
The Greatest NEGATIVE TO POSITIVE STORY
EVER!
♥️
Perhaps the most fascinating part of the interview.
I'm Catholic and i believe in the Shroud of Turin
@ God bless you, soon, you will also become Catholic.
Belive all you want. That does not make it true.
Puruan Langit also money will make you believe in the contradictions in your Bible . Dr Bart ehrman books are excellent to read 📚📖 Forged
@Instaurare Omnia In Christo
You have to write out meaning of NO Mass...Do not assume readers know what it is
Me too
I agree with Dr. Habermas that the shroud is most likely authentic. I also find the evidence provided by the team of scientists in the 70's more compelling than the radio carbon dating from the 80's which was reported as being biased and not thorough enough. The STIRP (sp?) team concluded definitively, that the shroud was not a painting. Also the theory that the image was created by an electromagnetic burst of energy is very intriguing and I propose a correlation between it, and the electromagnetic aftereffects reported by NDE experiencers. I wish someone would study this phenomenon more in depth. I brought my theory to the attention of Dr. Habermas, only because he has looked into both the shroud studies and the NDE phenomenon but he politely replied he had not made this correlation. Having said that though, I think the theory requires a scientist's perspective. Why are so many NDE experiencers coming back with the ability to affect electrical currents? What is the physical connection between spirituality and electromagnetic activity? If we could get to the bottom of this very question, I think it would get us one step closer to understanding and perhaps authenticating the Shroud.
It's real. It can't be duplicated even with today's technology. The 3d scanning , the negative image . Whether its 200 years old or 2,000 it can't be duplicated
And the description of the shroud matches Jesus’s body, there was a puncture wound on the side, a swollen face, piercings on the wrists, and that the victim suffered extreme torture
It very much can be duplicated today
@@talon2577 How? What is your source on this? What, in your opinion, created the image?
Witchcraft can't be ruled out. The Vatican Officials are practitioners of Kabbalah and black magic, surely it's not coincidence that the shroud came from the Catholic Church? Great deception, this is the false Christ of Catholicism and not the biblical Jesus.
@@michaelturnage3395 The Shroud of Turin was not even owned by the Catholic Church until 1983, when it was given by the House of Savoy to the Holy See.
The Church's view, whether the cloth is authentic or not has no bearing whatsoever on the validity of what Jesus taught. The church does not oblige the faithful to believe in any relics, this include the Shroud.
I worked on IONIZING RADIATION DETECTION at PNNL in Washington State for 34 years and the SHROUD IMAGE was made with a burst of charged particle radiations (energetic electrons, or charged particles like protons and alpha particles or EXTREME, EXTREME VACUUM ULTRAVIOLET. The radiation came from the body as well to make the image, I concur with that.
Further NONE of the ionizing radiation sources were available in the 1300s or further back.
Even of we had the ionizing radiation source match, it's unclear if we have the engineering today to duplicate the SHROUD it's that technically complex. To even attempt a copy today would be ENORMOUSLY EXPENSIVE, hundreds of millions in research and you may end up with a poor duplicate at that level of effort!!
Retired PNNL Scientist!
P.S. Don't forget the SHROUD of TURIN is closely associated with the SUDARIUM of OVIEDO. The SUDARIUM covered the face of Jesus after the CRUCIFIXION and the blood stains and other features have 70 points of Correlation with the SHROUD of TURIN. The SUDARIUM is KNOWN Historically to 600 AD . This places the SHROUD much, much older than the middle AGED Carbon date (wrong Carbon date in my humble opinion and the SHROUD is known Historically back to 1390s).
😲 This was a great interview. Thanks for doing this.
Shroud of Turin the Cloth that touched the Body of God himself 🙏🙏🙏
Don’t you think that if it was real, people would be begging to touch it and heal their sicknesses? Just like the story in the Bible of the sick woman who had faith in Jesus while he was in a crowd she and touched a piece of his cloth and got healed
@@DavidJones-hk8uy bruh, you do realize the cloth is not what healed her right...
@@benepaste4310 you do realize the she believed only the cloak would heal her right? Just the cloak. She didn’t touch his flesh
@@benepaste4310 so the clothing only had magical power of it was worn? Like… what?
🤦
A woman who worked with the shroud, and is an expert on ancient textiles...
believed the portion they used to carbon date, was a section of the shroud that was mended.
The mending technique was dated itself... and matched the timeline to the carbon dating year the scientist derived.
Yes there were multiple independent test... but they were all done with the same section.
Had they used multiple sections from the shroud as well the test would have been much more comprehensive.
So imagine if they used 4 different areas of the shroud... and then... only the one section originally used out of the samples was youngest, and the rest dated back to Jesus time.
I still think, and always will, it is a tragedy they only used one tiny little corner smidge to completely invalidate the whole.
There was much too much depending on this... for them not to use multiple sites of the cloth as well.
Agree with you 100 per cent. The piece they used to carbon date it was taken from a corner that actually was sewn on and not the original linen of the shroud, but rather it is gotten and had been burned in the fire in the 1500's. They need to do another carbon date from the ', field' portion of the shroud that is the original linen part. But I don't think the Catholic church will allow it to be re-tested. Everything is so 'political'.
@@kingGeorgefan1 Yes there is something very weird going on within the hierarchy of the Catholic church.
I just watched a movie called Mary Magdalene. I wasn't long into it when I realized it bared little resemblance to the Gospels.
Jesus was depicted as weak and confused, dirty and disheveled. His teachings were hacked and distorted leaving the viewer uninspired. They even had him turning to Mary for wisdom.
The disciples seemed to be clueless, highlighting their chauvinistic insecurities, only Judas was given the more positive light.
When Jesus arrived in Jerusalem for the Passover, they had the disciples yelling here comes Jesus almost like a sales pitch.
The movie was creepy, unenlightened, depressing, and not at all true to the Bible.
I had an inkling it was influence by Catholicism when Jesus recited the massacred version of the Lords Prayer... And I was justified during the end credits. This movie angered me as its design was to reduce Jesus as some brooding new age hippy.
Just as the Shroud was renounced, and it's authentication discontinued indefinitely...this movie is just another part of the scheme of things.... All designed to take down Jesus as our Lord and Savior.
Stay strong my friend.
That should be easy
date it again why are we still talking about this
I bet if y'all had the slightest hint of faith thats the first thing you would have done
Two edifying books: "The Resurrection of the Shroud" and "Test the Shroud" by Mark Antonacci:
It's an interesting subject. Whether it's real or not has absolutely no bearing on my faith in Jesus Christ Almighty God. However, when it concerns the shroud, it's one of two things: Either it's authentic, or somebody figured out how to do photography centuries earlier than thought. Why? Because unlike a painting or scorching, the shroud has three dimensional information within the fabric that's only seen in photography. People have tried to replicate this, but the only way it is done is via radiation in slices, much like a scanner. How someone, even in the middle ages if the shroud is a fraud, could've pulled it off kind of blows the mind.
@Obamalies100
Faith comes from the latin fides and the greek pistes which means "trust", so faith is evidence based. Hebrews can be summed up by something CS Lewis said once, "Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted in spite of your changing moods." People tend to think faith is only matters of religion but this is untrue. It applies to science too, for much of science relies on assumptions that cannot be proven. For example, mathematics. A peer reviewed paper entitled, "The Role of Faith in Mathematics," from Dick Wood of Seattle Pacific University: "In conclusion, we cannot avoid the realization that mathematics involves faith. Some see mathematics as the ultimate in intellectual rigor, I agree. However, we need to realize all of the basic assumptions, hiding nothing."
As for the shroud, I venture to say that it's impossible to verify that it is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ Almighty God, but it's also difficult to explain how people either hundreds or thousands of years ago were able to create essentially photography. The shroud is a "document" of three dimensional information, and is therefore a photograph.
Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you all 😊
@Obamalies100
The author of Hebrews uses evidence of the past, that the people already accept as true, to set up the argument that Jesus Christ Almighty God is true on the basis of evidence from eyewitness testimony from the author and from those who back up the author because they were eyewitnesses too.
Mind you, the book of Hebrews was not written to unbelievers but to Jews who became Christians. These are letters to Christian churches/communities to address issues in those Christian churches/communities. That's the missing context here. They already believed in Jesus Christ Almighty God.
What was the purpose of the book of Hebrews? Outlined in the link below:
biblehub.com/summary/hebrews/1.htm
Faith is superior, in short, to the old covenant made in the times of Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc. But again, what is faith? It is our personal action on the basis of evidence that has already been demonstrated. Because Jesus Christ Almighty God resurrected and ascended into heaven, we have assurance that the things promised (yet to happen) will happen, therefore we act out our faith in Jesus Christ Almighty God.
@Obamalies100
I accepted Jesus Christ Almighty God as my Lord and Savior and Redeemer and Healer and Deliverer and God over my heart and life forever on February 12, 2004 😊 so I'm already saved through Jesus Christ Almighty God.
@Obamalies100
Your argument is not strong enough. You may as well be saying that Napoleon is to be doubted because none of us presently here on earth ever seen him. You might be interested in a Facebook page entitled "Did Abraham Lincoln Exist?" which uses atheist arguments (mockingly) to discredit Abraham Lincoln's existence.
Now, mind you, the vast majority of scholars whether they be atheists or believers acknowledge that Jesus Christ Almighty God did indeed exist and that his trial and execution and the empty tomb and subsequent claims that Jesus Christ Almighty God resurrected from the dead by many witnesses are considered historical facts.
Bart Ehrman, no friend of Christianity, himself wrote in one of his books: "Whether you like it or not Jesus of Nazareth existed." He further discredits those who claim that Jesus Christ Almighty God didn't exist, by pointing out that the "Jesus Mythists" are a lunatic fringe minority in scholarly pursuits that consist largely of amateurs with virtually no credibility what so ever.
Btw, if YOU are a Christian and I am a Christian, then what are we arguing about here? It seems to me that you are making the bulk of your argument on your understanding of scripture rather than the consensus view throughout the centuries and millennia of what scripture says. This sounds like a denominational issue than anything else.
I find it ironic that I have just as hard, if not a harder time, debating my fellow brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ Almighty God than I do atheists. These petty differences only make an unbelieving world look at the Christian church and think, "Why would I ever want involved in Christianity when all these people do is argue?"
Now if you want to believe faith is something blind, when the book of John says, "These things are written so that you may believe," and they were eyewitnesses to Jesus Christ Almighty God's resurrection and ascension into heaven; and the Apostle Peter wrote: "For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain," etc--- then I do not know what to tell you.
Frank Turek and others have argued against your very logic several times over the years. You may as well be saying that because something was proven ages ago, that since we ourselves did not witness it, we should not believe it. That's the undermining of all logic and reason, and anything that undermines logic and reason should not be taken seriously.
Before you quip that last point would mean religion shouldn't be taken seriously, I would tell you that CS Lewis and several others pointed out long ago that if God doesn't exist then there is no logic and reason, for our logic and reason would merely be an illusion because our brains would merely be nothing more than atoms randomly colliding in our skulls for no rhyme or reason. You must FIRST have God in order for there to have logic and reason, as well as science. To quote the agnostic Paul Davies:
"People take it for granted that the physical world is both ordered and intelligible. The underlying order in nature - the laws of physics - are simply accepted as given, as brute facts.
Nobody asks where they came from; at least not in polite company. However, even the most atheistic scientist accepts AS AN ACT OF FAITH that the universe is not absurd, that there is a rational basis to physical existence manifested as law-like order in nature that is at least partly comprehensible to us.
So science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological worldview."
Lastly, the argument about the Jews taking their past history as a matter of faith, is basically a non-argument. You may as well be saying that every single American lives by faith that the Founding Fathers existed, and that the battles of the Revolutionary War are matters of faith that they happened. The events, places and people of The Bible are historically accurate, on the basis of archeological evidence and texts from the ancient world backing up biblical accounts. That's not to say everything has been discovered, but that the vast majority of the claims of The Bible has been verified. For example, the tower of babel has been a verified place of history.
So when you say such things are matters of faith, I say that the actions of the people were acts of faith on the basis of factual evidence that they occurred. They actually occurred, were written down, etc--- just like our own histories have been written down. That's not to say history isn't altered or flat out lied about (ie, islam) but when archeological evidence and ancient texts back up a source, it gives incredible weight to the claims of the source. Therefore, we act in faith on that evidence.
Jesus Christ Almighty God bless you and Jesus Christ Almighty God bless your family 😊
@Obamalies100
Sir... You are either an atheist pretending to be a Christian to cause chaos and division, or you are a wolf in sheep's clothing that comes in the name of Jesus Christ Almighty God but are not of Jesus Christ Almighty God, or you have got to be of a lunatic fringe minority view in Christianity that the vast majority of Christian's largely ignore like the Young Earth creationists.
Yes Jesus Christ Almighty God did indeed die and Jesus Christ Almighty God did indeed resurrect from the dead and will one day return and it is by belief and trust in Jesus's resurrection from the dead that Jesus is Lord and Savior and Redeemer and Healer and Deliverer and God that we are all saved. Period.
I am not going to argue with you any more. You need help. Jesus Christ Almighty God willing you will see the error of your ways and ask Jesus Christ Almighty God to forgive you.
Jesus comes soon and everybody will see if is true! Amen
Been waiting for over 2 thousand years.
I won't hold my breath
Hahahahahaha 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Amen
Amen
Heathen The Heretic
2 Peter 3:3-4
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
There is nothing in ancient writings that proves Christ’s existence. Let us start with Philo-Judaeus (20 BC - 50 AD) Philo wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that J.C. is said to have existed on earth. Philo was living in or near Jerusalem when J.C.'s miraculous birth and Herod's massacre occurred. He was there when J.C. made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there for the crucifixion and all the world-shattering events that followed - earthquakes, the sun becoming dark at noon, the graves opening and the dead and long-dead saints roaming about the place., supposedly seen by many, also when J.C. himself rose from the dead and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heaven, but Philo saw nothing, heard nothing, wrote nothing. Flavius Josephus, the renowned Jewish historian, born 37 AD was a contemporary of the apostles. He was for a time the governor of Galilee, where J.C. lived and taught. Josephus wrote of every important event during the first 70 years AD but J.C. did not get a mention. Later the Josephus writings were interpolated and forgeries which mention J.C. added on. This short forgery was labelled by Bishop Warburton as "a rank forgery and a very stupid one too…" It is mentioned in the Church History, that this was the word of the very dishonest bishop Eusebius. The Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the forged passages were not known to Origen and earlier church writers. Justus Tiberius was a native of Galilee, he wrote a history covering the period of J.C.'s reputed existence. This work was destroyed, but Photius a Christian scholar and critic of the 9th century who was acquainted with it says that Justus made not a mention of J.C. or his wondrous works. There were also interpolations and forgeries in the works of Pliny the younger and historian Tacitus (who was born about 20 years after the purported death of J.C. Due to modern science, these are now recognized as forgeries by all scholars both Christian and secular. A total of about 40 to 50 interpolated lines are the only supporting evidence of the existence of J.C. a man-god who supposedly shook up the whole world of that period. The other historians of that time, Arrian, Lucius Seneca (4 BC - 65 AD) Dion Pruseus, Pliny the Elder, Pater Calus, Suetonius, Juvenal, Theon of Smyrna, Martial, Phlegon, Persius, Pompon Mela, Plutarch, Quintus Curtius, Lucian, Apollonius, Pausanias, Valerius Flaccus, Quintilian, Forus Lucius, Lucanus, Phaedrus, Epictetus, Damis, Silius Italicus, Alulus Geuius, Statius, Ptolemy, Columella, Diochry Sostom, Hermogones, Lysias, Valerius Maxiimus, Cornelius, Titus Livius, Cluvius Rufus, Publius Petronius (the Roman consul) who lived in Jerusalem. All these heard nothing, not a word was written about JC… And you have a 13th century cloth... Sounds like the church has pulled the biggest scam on you...
Cameron I'd love to see you host an entire episode on this relic with an expert.
Yeah, someone other than Habermas. He's completely biased in his views and wants to prove what he already believes.
@@timmyr345
People shouldn't try and prove what they already believe? How would anything ever be communicated?
I'd love to see you interview someone like Barrie Schwortz about the shroud.
I REALLY wish Gary would update his, now quite old, book on this issue.
In my opinion, I believe that the Shroud of Turin is authentic.
In the end, hypothetically he dropped the mic.
After the Apostles and women who was the first individual to go into Jesus tomb and grab His linen clothing?
😹🤣 yah. Thoughtful
A research paper published in Thermochimica Acta suggests the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.
The Shroud of Turin is much older than suggested by radiocarbon dating carried out in the 1980s, according to a new study in a peer-reviewed journal.... Raymond Rogers says his research and chemical tests show the material used in the 1988 radiocarbon analysis was cut from a medieval patch woven into the shroud to repair fire damage. BBC News Jan. 31, 2005
It makes no difference to me because I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ anyway. A piece of cloth has no influence on my life but the spirit of God does. He lives, praise him.
Well said...
The Bishop of Troyes literally wrote to the pope c. 1389 to tell him about how fake the shroud was, as well as the motives behind it. He even said that Henry of Poitiers, the Bishop at the time, had found the guy who had made it, who confessed to forging it.
"the Dean of a certain collegiate church, to wit, that of Lirey, falsely and deceitfully, being consumed with the passion of avarice, and not from any motive of devotion but only of gain, procured for his church a certain cloth cunningly painted, upon which by a clever sleight of hand was depicted the twofold image of one man, that is to say, the back and front, he *falsely declaring and pretending that this was the actual shroud in which our Saviour Jesus Christ was enfolded in the tomb* , and upon which the whole likeness of the Saviour had remained thus impressed together with the wounds which He bore. This story was put about not only in the kingdom of France, but, so to speak, throughout the world, so that from all parts people came together to view it. And further to attract the multitude so that money might cunningly be wrung from them, *pretended miracles were worked* , certain men being hired to represent themselves as healed at the moment of the exhibition of the shroud, which all believed to the shroud of our Lord."
Read it:
priory-of-sion.com/biblios/links/memorandum.html
Too many idols. Please don't venerate objects. Worship God.
Shameless Papist of course i have read my own citation. The author refers to themselves all over the letter, naming everyone involved, as well as the historical places involved.
If you hold the position you are taking on this document as being some sort of super elaborate forgery, made for no good reason, then you might as well throw out the Gospels as well.
Either way it doesn't matter. Do you know why King Hezekiah destroyed the bronze serpent?
Shameless Papist brother, I love the material evidences of our Lord. I just feel that if we let ourselves get wrapped up in veneration of things we call "holy" objects, regardless of their authenticity, then we will fall into error.
Whether that burial shroud is real or fake, it's meaningless... you know? We have the Spirit of the Living God. We are walking temples, and the members of the body of Christ.
The bronze serpent was destroyed, even though it was the literal authentic one that Moses made, because people were venerating it and treating it as if it was worthy of honor. God doesn't want graven images, even of Himself.
If we keep that prominent in our hearts and minds then we can discuss things like this shroud without thinking that God's authenticity is tied to it somehow. God bless you brother.
And this is a prime example of why many religious scholars and apologist’s are considered so intellectually dishonest . The Shroud has been collectively considered to not be authentic but apologists like Habermas just can’t seem to realize that supporting things such as the shroud just end up destroying their credibility in the end . I’m in desperate search for an intellectually honest Christian apologist - any suggestions out there ? ✌🏼
You know we do have historical evidence of the shroud in the 4th century and then again in the 6th and not to mention that’s it’s a first century weave with 1st century Roman scourge wounds. We also have pollen evidence that goes back to Jerusalem and you mix that in with the image being created by a burst of radiation and the fact that you can see teeth and bones in the image plus the fluent vp8 image and you can see why Christians take this shroud so seriously
What about the photo negative image? Some of it did seem to test for 1st century Judea right? Didn't those tests that show it was 13th century turn out to be done of repaired sections?
STURP team spent over two years preparing a series of tests that would gather a vast amount of Shroud data in a relatively short period of time. STURP's primary goal was to determine the scientific properties of the image on the Shroud of Turin, and what might have caused it:
After years of exhaustive study and evaluation of the data, STURP issued its Final Report in 1981. "We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist."
"The answer to the question of how the image was produced or what produced the image remains, now, as it has in the past, a mystery." “There are no chemical or physical methods known which can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological or medical circumstances explain the image adequately.”
The STRUP team included three Jewish members, one Mormon, one Evangelical, several Catholics, several Protestants and some avowed atheists and agnostics. - they are (33) all top notch scientist and engineers from respected agencies/corporations.
Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories* Lockheed Corporation* U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories* Brooks Institute of Photography* University of Colorado* Oceanographic Services Inc.* Nuclear Technology Corporation* U.S. Air Force Academy* Jet Propulsion Laboratory* Sandia National Laboratory*, etc.
They did not say it is Jesus Christ on the image. They did say that it is not man made..
It is an image of a man, with a cap of thorns, scourged and crucified. His legs were not broken and he is pierced on the side with a lance.
The shroud of Turin is something we can't simply DISMISS as an impossibility. That much I know. There seems to be something very UNIQUE here... But was it INDEED the burial shroud of Jesus? I don't know. And I've heard too much conflicting information, to come down either way. Recently, forensic research has supposedly demonstrated it to be a fake. EITHER WAY, Christ is risen! He is risen INDEED!
recently someone took I think some genetic information from it, and concluded a blood group, and identified that group with a local group, not the jews.
That would put a big stick in the judeic narrative, and would really change our reading of the bible new vs old etc.
How legitimate is this evidence, i cant tell, but I have heard that this was the case
@Bogartyr Bogumir
That's all very vague...
@@brando3342 It is vague and the reason i cant be more specific is because I simply dont remember, the program was on television and centered around the findings of several researchers who did simultaneous tests, and all came up with the same result, which of course blew them away, and then when we see the current narrative blew them away even more but it did frame and put into perspective some more of the history of Jesus etc.
I regret not properly sitting down all the way to the end to actually get the name of these people and their study... instead im left with basically hearsay
imbecility. Unique a out a fake. If this was THE smoking gun, your churches would be hailing this. They are not.
@@boguslav9502 you heard it on the street??
The shoud is not fake that kind of radiation burn into that cloth is energy from God, when he was resurrected, powerful.
Hahaha the absurdity y’all need to accept to believe in zombies.
🤦😂
How do they know it’s Jesus? No man alive today has seen Jesus in the flesh, and there is no biblical record that tells us what he looked like apart from him being unrecognizable after his crucifixion. We know he was a Jew & had a beard. Ancient Jews had beards, light tan skin, short black hair, apart from those that took the Nazarite vow who had long hair. Jesus was from Nazareth but didn’t take the Nazarite vow as there’s no biblical evidence of him doing so. Plus the Bible clearly states that, No man has see God at any time and lived John 1 v 18. Is very ironic how many Roman Catholics have pictures of a European white Gentile Jesus with long hair & some with blond hair. 1Corinthians 11v 14. Exodus 20 v 4 commands us not to make images of things in heaven or on earth. Therefore in my opinion & according to the clear teaching of scripture this shroud of Turin is a medieval fake. Period.
Cameron I just read Dr. Lavoie’s book. A medical doctor who has spent years researching the shroud. He would make for a great interview please.
In john it mentions a separate piece of cloth covering his face.
The Sudarium. It even has the same blood type on it as the shroud.
Comment for the algorithm!
😍😅
There is no doubt this is authentic
Eye wirness tell us things about the burial that had to be seen to been known.
Christ is God Come in the flesh
Gullible, much? Lol
I'm not sure about the shroud, but about God Jesus existent, i have no doubts! He is God Himself, who was in the form of God, but became in flesh to save all believers in Him! There are MILLIONS testimonies about God Jesus Christ only in the internet! God bless you! Maranatha!
@@НатанаилСталев-ф2р millions of testimonies equals evidence? Hahahahaha only theists believe that crap and ONLY for THEIR particular god. For all other gods, they become atheist.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
@Shameless Papist what gibberish are u spewing. Billions of people telling me a "fact" does not make it a fact. That a fallacy, theist.
We can prove the sun exist not only via eyewitness but we can use instruments to measure the amount of heat radiating fro.the sun. The amount of photons, etc
With your bible, all u have are CLAIMS of people making more CLAIMS. U dont have evidence.
@Shameless Papist in our court of law, eyewitness testimony is never good evidence and is not reliable. Not even close.
Arebu telling me that eye witness account is reliable?
Beiseds.... you theists only have CLAIMS of people CLAIMING to see. U have ZERO eye witness to ANY supernatural event.
The above paragraph is the ONLY point. Anything else is just gibberish
It's 💯 authentic.
No. The man depicted is clearly a medieval European man in his 50s. You can tell from the hairstyle. We know what 1st century Jews looked like from contemporary coins and synagogue paintings. The Fayum mummy portraits are very helpful as well. This is most certainly not Jesus.
@@michaelturnage3395 nop
@@michaelturnage3395 just because of what you THINK he would look like? give me a break.
I've always wondered about this.
Guys whether the shroud is authentic or not it doesn’t matter!! The source of our faith/where our faith is anchored is in Jesus Christ Himself Who at Heaven sitting at The Right Hand of The Power and His Perfect Word The Bible NOT in a piece of cloth!!!!!
The STURP team - "We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist."
It is not made by man, and in all circumstances it appears to be Jesus Christ, as described in the bible.
Occam's razor (principle of parsimony) - "the simplest explanation is usually the best one." - It is the image of Jesus Christ on the shroud.
Anything can appear like Jesus Christ when there isn’t anything describing what he looks like lmao(which isn’t surprising considering the fact that the only eyewitness account is from someone who never met Jesus ).
@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50 The reality is this: science has proved that it is not made by man, and there really was a dead man draped in that burial shroud and that this dead man suffered exactly the same tortures as Jesus of Nazareth, as reported in the Gospels.
A man scourged (scourging was not done for one being put to death), with a crown of thorns (as a mockery of him being the "King of the Jews"), speared on his side, and no broken legs.
(The two thieves crucified with him had their legs broken to hasten their death.)
@@jotunman627 umm no there is no evidence that the shroud was wrapped around somebody and 3 different labs dated it to the Middle Ages sorry you really can’t logically say it’s the burial cloth of Jesus lmao all it is, is a cloth with a weird face on it. Also since you find the gospels reliable can you tell me who wrote them and why they decided to live 2 times as long as the life expectancy and then decades after the events happened decided to write down the events while copying from each other thank you.
@@jesushad12gayfriendwhoallb50 The image on the linen is barely visible to the naked eye, and wasn't identified at all until 1898, when it became apparent in the negative image of a photograph taken by Secondo Pia, an amateur Italian photographer. Secondo Pia's photograph showed that the image on the cloth is a negative
The radio carbon dating is passé, a long time ago. They used wrong samples
STRUP team final report:
"We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist".
@@jotunman627 wow so much baseless claims. Do you have evidence that the samples the scientist used were as you said it wrong samples? Also what does the image being negative have to do with anything?
Six months before in my vision i saw : Heaven and LORD JESUS face to face on white horse ❤️ ! LORD JESUS IS GOD ❤️ ADONAI❤️ in Flesh ! Stop doubting Israel and Repent IN JESUS NAME ❤️ ADONAI❤️ ! No more time , We are Last generation ! Shalom .
We've been the last generation since man made up a diety.
@@valveman12 You better not be referring to Jesus or God.
How do people know what side of the cloth was in contact with the body?
Maybe it is possible to use specially tuned lasers to make the image on the Shroud. But there are severe difficulties because they would have to put out a 360 degree output, with complete equality of the output in every direction.
The tuning would have to be specially accurate to avoid going through all the depth of the Shroud itself.
I don’t believe that laser scientists can do it now. Laser crystals are notoriously difficult to manufacture and control.
I think we just have to face reality. This incident was supernatural.
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
Man think the laser will burn the cloth
Have you ever pooled bleach on your cloth?
@@rickojay7536 well you are a fraud... atheist you just hit and run
@@ChristRegin You are correct. Industrial lasers are notoriously difficult to tune and monitor to remain tuned. My son-in-law is a laser optics engineer. This is the main reason why they are so expensive and difficult to mass produce. In order to "burn" an image on the exterior fibers of the Shroud, the lasers would have to be exquisitely tuned in exact match for the thickness of the Shroud in each millimeter, and fire electronically using a computer. If you consider the level of electronic sophistication required to burn on the image, it is probably outside of our present industrial capability. And it would cost millions of dollars to attempt it. Building the exposure enclosure would probably cost 2-5 million dollars alone.
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
@@rickojay7536 I don't wish to be unkind, but your post makes no sense. I'm sure it is clear to you but you are not communicating it to us.
I have generally found that sarcasm is very difficult to pull-off in written form. I've tried it and it usually fell flat. Instead, I would respectfully suggest you just "say what you mean and mean what you say."
I'm not a Christian. I'm sure I can deal with it.
Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)
What I'm fairly convinced of is that Habermas believes whatever is necessary to keep his faith intact.
...while you believe whatever is necessary to keep yours. You are not saying anything that is new.
Keep your faith in a single cell more complex than all the computer programs ever created by man crawling out of a primordial soup pool on a hostile planet by accident lol
@@kevinrouse8469 damn got em good we don’t know how life came to be so gawd did it.
Its quite sad actually cuz he doesnt need to
@@kevinrouse8469 if you want to talk about evolution thats a scientific topic not atheistic the fact that a lot of atheists accept it is because of the evidence presented
Father Robert Spitzer would be an excellent guest.
The shroud and the physical appearance of Lord Jesus
In an article in Newsweek magazine of September 19, 1988 entitled «the ever mysterious Shroud» mentioned that three workshops, one in Zurich, one in Oxford and one in Tucson, Arizona, is ready to give a report, after study, to date construction of the famous sindonis (shroud) Turin. The article clearly states that: "If the rumors are correct the the laboratories answers to the authenticity of the shroud that IS DEFINITETLY NO, because in Arizona they have dated it with the method of carbon and they found out that it was constructed in 1350 AD!
In continuing, the article highlights the fact that those who lead the research, made the impossible possible to keep the results of the test highly secret! Twenty five years have passed since then, and now we can see the logic of what the owners of the “shroud” should have done if the shroud was proven by science to be 2000 years old, or on the other hand what they should have done if it was proven to be false! The only reasonable conclusion that can be made from this whole story is that this “shroud” talk about never covered the body of Christ and the drawings upon does not reflect the face of Lord Jesus.
A letter from Pilates to Tiberius about Lord Jesus Christi describing the physical apearence/characteristics of Lord Jesus)
According to Pilates letter, Lord Jesus was very handsome, his hair was red like his face had a rose-white color and he continues to on to say that the light on his face seems to come out from the sun ~it is so bright~ that no one is able to see it. ua-cam.com/video/ezItFNpdnVY/v-deo.html
Lord Jesus did not come to bring a new philosophy on earth but to remake man into a new creation a godman part man part god by the Grace of God! For this, He created the Church as a therapeutic institution to cure man from sin to enable him this way back to the presence of his Creator God! [Mathew5:8] “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God”.
The letter to Platus (sorry only in Greek)
iliaxtida.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/pilatos/
Jesus did not come to teach philosophically but THERAPEUTICALLY. (to cure man from sin beginning with BAPTISM to enable him this way back to the presence of God!
www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/03/the-foundations-of-orthodox.html
God bless
A research paper published in Thermochimica Acta suggests the shroud is between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.
The Shroud of Turin is much older than suggested by radiocarbon dating carried out in the 1980s, according to a new study in a peer-reviewed journal.... Raymond Rogers says his research and chemical tests show the material used in the 1988 radiocarbon analysis was cut from a medieval patch woven into the shroud to repair fire damage. BBC News Jan. 31, 2005
Fascinating.
“Then Aaron shall come into the tent of meeting and shall take off the linen garments that he put on when he went into the Holy Place and shall leave them there." -Lev 16:23
"Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself." John 20:6-7
2 Timothy 4:13
“When you come, bring [The Cloak] that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books, and above all the parchments.”
Psalm 102:25-27 (Hebrews 1:10-14)
"Of old you laid the foundation of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you will remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away,
but you are the same, and your years have no end."
Jim Merrilees
Rebuke your satanic Masonic ways Jim.
Get away from those good ol’boys clubs, Elks, Lodges etc. and do something for yourself.
Have some integrity and honesty with what you study and discover, because you’re only lying to yourself brother Jim.
Jim Merrilees
Tsk tsk. I’m disappointed you’ve already sullied your intelligence by using elementary mocking tactics. I love how your response completely dodged my accurate accusations though, I do so love when demons can’t be honest in the face of truth and revelation.
Weak willed man.
You’re lying to yourself.
You’re full of it.
Your life style and sins cannot see co-existence with an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being that goes beyond limitations of foundations in the clouds, let alone the stratosphere, well beyond the Mesosphere, all in all an ever transcendent being that existed outside the frame work of creation, the dimensions of time and space being laid out from his origin.
A universe from nothing and the atheist mind set is one of pure immature self indulgence and mental masturbation as the living remnant to the wraith that was Satan, and you all live out his Ego through your own ID.
But you are my brother. Don’t be so naive. And integrity and I are clearly more bonded than a man who can’t even be honest over a simple chat. And you as my little brother I must let you know, you’re being a chode.
Jim Merrilees
*Wisdom Of Solomon 2:1-24*
1 For the ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright, Our life is short and tedious, and in the death of a man there is no remedy: neither was there any man known to have returned from the grave.
2 For we are born at all adventure: and we shall be hereafter as though we had never been: for the breath in our nostrils is as smoke, and a little spark in the moving of our heart:
3 Which being extinguished, our body shall be turned into ashes, and our spirit shall vanish as the soft air,
4 And our name shall be forgotten in time, and no man shall have our works in remembrance, and our life shall pass away as the trace of a cloud, and shall be dispersed as a mist, that is driven away with the beams of the sun, and overcome with the heat thereof.
5 For our time is a very shadow that passeth away; and after our end there is no returning: for it is fast sealed, so that no man cometh again.
6 Come on therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are present: and let us speedily use the creatures like as in youth.
7 Let us fill ourselves with costly wine and ointments: and let no flower of the spring pass by us:
8 Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds, before they be withered:
9 Let none of us go without his part of our voluptuousness: let us leave tokens of our joyfulness in every place: for this is our portion, and our lot is this.
10 Let us oppress the poor righteous man, let us not spare the widow, nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged.
11 Let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth.
12 Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraideth us with our offending the law, and objecteth to our infamy the transgressings of our education.
13 He professeth to have the knowledge of God: and he calleth himself the child of the Lord.
14 He was made to reprove our thoughts.
15 He is grievous unto us even to behold: for his life is not like other men's, his ways are of another fashion.
16 We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father.
17 Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him.
18 For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies.
19 Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience.
20 Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected.
21 Such things they did imagine, and were deceived: for their own wickedness hath blinded them.
22 As for the mysteries of God, they knew them not: neither hoped they for the wages of righteousness, nor discerned a reward for blameless souls.
23 For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity.
24 Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it.
[disclaimer: Your world view is no different from the atheist of Solomon’s time, no different from ante diluvian atheist, no different.
Still immature and selfish. Grow up Jim. It’s time.]
JESUS CHRIST IS GOD THE ALMIGHTY
He hit 100k! Whoa!
The science calls for it to be authentic.
Christ’s Apostles explained that it is a shame for a man to grow long hair. Then, it is certain that Christ did not have long hair either, and as we can see he has long hair on that shroud, which makes no sense.
According to Jewish traditions and laws, they did not have long hair, but if the Shroud of Turin is true and it is not fake ... it could be how evidence that Jesus could have long hair. Today's researchers reject the idea that he was long-haired and promote the curly Jesus.
We read in John 19: 38-40 that Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea took Christ's body and prepared it for burial using 75 lbs of aromatic spices and ointments. From what I understand, there is no residue of such spices on this cloth. Shouldn't there be?
👍 very good point. Hopefully they will added those things before test on shroud next time 😹
Didnt the recent tests they already did answer this question?
Why do we have to keep asking this question repeatedly?
How many more tests do you have to do to decide once and for all whether it is genuine???
Only through Jesus we have eternal life ✝️🕊💞
Romans 5:8
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Acts 2:38-39
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Romans 8:38-39
38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Hebrews 4:12 KJV
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
Hebrews 13:16
"And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased." ... These are the sacrifices that please God."
Could you use softer (less stark) light for your interviews?
No. :)
Capturing Christianity if people can spot your videos on the thumbnail photo style alone, stay with it!
It doesn't matter if the shroud is real or not.
Worshiping relics is a sin and there is plenty of other evidence that Jesus was resurrected.
i don't think anyone intends on worshiping the shroud, but it is near-definitive proof of the resurrection if it is authentic
Love Dr. Habermas! Minimal facts argument is awesome 👏!
It was custom to wrap the head separate from the body not one shroud
The Sadurium. The blood an the Shroud and the Sadurium match.
Can't say i see any importance in this whatsoever as a Christian.
You can't be serious...
@@asggerpatton7169 Why, are Moses and the Prophets not enough?
@@Durnyful It's not a matter of basing your faith on a relic but being happy in having or seeing one, specially the burial cloth of Jesus. Can you really deny this?
@@asggerpatton7169 Except it can never be proved so you are just choosing to believe what you wish.
@@Durnyful But that wasn't what you were arguing in your first post. The point is that the shroud of Jesus would certainly be something great to have or see.
The fact this is actually a debate says a lot!!!!!!!
We don't debate the existence of my best friend nor my dog!
Nor do i debate the existence of anyone im talking to. Or even the orange president we have in the USA today.
Yet, for some strange reason, this one (or many) jesus guy(s) we have no clue about.
🤔🤔🤔 Hmmmmmm
Never thought of it that way.
It is real!
Do all you people forget about the cloth wrapped around Christ’s head at his burial? Where is that and it would probably have effected the image.
The Sudarium.
Oh that thing is real, and we all know who was in it and came out of it. Thank you
I believe it's real!
I think it os authentic too.
Ain't no gawd baby. If it was one you sho ain't gone get now nutha, not now Nutha
It is worth recognising that he Shroud of Turin has a large conflict with the Gospel of John because that suggests Jesus had a second burial cloth for the head, which he shroud does not have.
Also, please don't say the Shroud of Turin was formed by "radiation", as that conjures up the idea of x-rays, which are far too penetrating to cause the effect he is describing. A bit of searching reveals that the actual 'radiation' theory is referring to ultraviolet light. If you mean ultraviolet light, please just say ultraviolet light, not 'radiation'.
The Head Cloth is in Oviedo
☝♥️
Read about it 🤓
It's a fascinating read
How does that conflict? No reason the shroud couldn't cover the head and then another cloth was added for the head.
Both x-rays and ultraviolet rays come under the electromagnetic spectrum of radiation!
@@Lone-Lee
Yes, but so does visible light.
Generally "radiation" conjures up images of x-rays and such unless otherwise specified, so to be clear it's better to just say "ultraviolet light".
Jesus Christ amen
60 to 80 percent represents mid to low probability?
Interesting... I'm considering whether or not to include the Shroud in my own paper on the Resurrection. It attempts to be conclusive and cover all commonly used arguments and established facts, etc., but I have always considered the Shroud as being too controversial for me to add it. What do you think?
Make it an honorable mention. 60-80% that is.
Caleb Peppiatt google Father Spitzer's article "Science and the Shroud of Turin", there is some very interesting information there. It is certainly an interesting bit of evidence, at the very least we could say that the Resurrection would provide a neat explanation to the Shroud, while no-Resurrection it is hard to explain how such an image would be formed like that, especially since we cannot even to this day correctly reproduce it with traditional methods
Hahahhaa. Your paper will only be believed by other believers. No one, who doesn't believe, would read the paper and conclude, wow, there is a god.
Derek Mizer not every non-believer is as biased or hostile to sincere discussion as you are, buddy.
@@derekmizer6293 I see that you are dismissing a case before actually examining it with the evidence that it claims to contain. Thus, if you are unwilling to view the arguments and evidence of the opposition, your own beliefs are not based off of evidence at all. You should at least consider reading it, because it seems clear to me that you have not investigated the subject.
The image on the shroud was created the same way we do today with X-rays the thing is they didnt have X-ray machines in 33AD !!! so my theory is controversial, Jesus was an Alien and these ETs used advanced tech to bring him back to life again
Its simple Jesus died for our sins and defeated death now if we believe in Jesus and live righteously and repent of our sins we can return to our GOD one day read your bible Jesus is our savior and king in we have salvation
@@christohees9150 Well just wish he would hurry up and come back as the world has gone to hell in 2021
@@christineayres7094 true....mankind needs a spanking in the butt....
Well thats really dumb Literally no one in their right mind would use that theory
Pretty sure that only came from you
@@rickojay7536 Even though the Sci Fi channel used my theory in their documentary and Dr Michio Kaku said it happened too and he's a lot smarter than you , Flat Earther
We couldn't make the pyramids today
So what does it all mean? Does it prove anything Jesus related?
Yes it's miraculous
@@koppite9600 in which way?
@@InteractiveIdea I'll have to say it's miraculous in it's perfection.
We cannot replicate it today with all the tech we have.
But what if I reverse it to you if you have read on it.. how is it not miraculous?
all i can say is this, that the scriptures are full of prophecy and history that is accurate, and the truth about Jesus is recorded in the gospels and also the coming of Jesus for told in the old testament even the apostle Paul in the book of Acts speaks about Jesus the son of God, and everything that we need to know about Jesus and the Kingdom of God is very well explained in the bible, however not a single hint is mentioned in the Holy Scriptures of Jesus leaving behind a trace of himself on a cloth that would be able to tell the world that this is himself and the whole world can see what I looked like. So in my humble opinion the shroud of Turin is not the image of Christ, it could be a picture or image of anyone at the time but not the son of God, because for something as profound as this it would have been fore told in the scriptures I have no doubt of that.
*Isaias **52:14*
*¡Su rostro fue desfigurado!*
En dicha sábana su imagen, su rostro, está completo.
Con esa sola descripción, declara su falsedad.
Gracias!
You could make 'a' pyramid today but you could not make 'The Great Pyramid of Giza' today.
Why not?
@Beverly Hurd OK, let me rephrase, we couldn't make 'The Great Pyramid' today with copper saws and chisels. And even with all our modern tools and machinery, it would take us a lot longer than 20 years to build it. Yet the experts tell us that that was how long it took the builders to build it using just copper saws, chisels, and some pullies.
@@Jahson70 The thing is, no knows for 100% sure how the pyramids were built, how many people were doing it and what all tools and time they had. I will agree that it was quite the accomplishment. But you are way off thinking that modem man with all his current tools and machinery could not do it in 20 years. That's pretty silly. I would say 2-3 years would be more than enough time.
@Beverly Hurd Now, who's being silly? All of the brown limestone blocks (average weight being 2 tonnes) are not even the same size, they're all different shapes and sizes, so we are not talking about a mass manufacturing effeort, each block is unique. But even if it was a straightforward all the same size and shape, for us to be able to do that today, we would have to quarry, transport, cut, shape and fit one block every 8 minutes working around the clock for 20 years. To do it in 2-3 years, well, I let you do the math.
@@Jahson70 Well fine. If you really think that 6000 years ago man did that with his bare hands in 20 years but today it cannot be done in a much shorter time using multi ton bulldozers, cranes and even helicopters then you are nothing short of delusional.
The image on the Shroud or Turin is not Jesus, it is image of Jaques DeMolay, the last Grand Master of the Knights Templar. He was mock crucified by the Inquisition. The features of DeMolay's body were etched on the cloth by the lactic acid from the free flowing blood, reacting with the frankincense used as a whitening agent which was rich in calcium carbonate. The long nose, the hair beyond shoulder length with a center part, the full beard that forked at the base & the fit looking 6 ft frame all perfectly match the known image of DeMolay. The image that the world has come to love is the face of God, is in fact the face of a man tortured & murdered in God's name, not by the Roman Church, but by a money-grubbing French king with the support of the Roman Catholic Church.
Hahahah conspiracist
To continue...he was not crucified wearing a wreath of thorns, but with a plain metal headband over his head.
Wrong. Its dated 2000 years ago, wayyy before those knights
It is a forgery because of The First Commandment.
IF this is authentic it would be made by Jesus Christ Himself, not man, and surely would be left behind as a witness to His death and resurrection, NOT to be worshiped.
(Speaking of Jesus) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: (Colossians 1:15)
So why isn't he 100 percent or at least 90 percent convinced.
With all of the scientific evidence that people are seeking to authenticate the shroud of Turin as a genuine relic of Christ, they seem to all overlook the biblical evidence that plainly debunks the shroud of Turin being associated with Jesus in any way.
First of all, the image on the shroud has long hair. Jesus was a devout Judean. Another devote Judean, the Apostle Paul, plainly says,
“Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?” (1 Corinthians 11:14)
Jesus was from Nazarene, so some will claim that Jesus took a nazirite vow, because He said on the cross that He would not drink wine until He drinks it new in the Kingdom. And as Samson who took the nazirite vow, Jesus supposedly took the vow also. The vow is described in Numbers 6:1-21. "Nazirite" comes from the Hebrew word “nazir" meaning "consecrated" or "separated".
This vow required the person during this designated time to:
Abstain from all wine and anything else made from the grape vine plant.
Refrain from cutting the hair on one's head; but to allow the locks of the head's hair to grow.
Not to become ritually impure by contact with corpses or graves, even those of family members.
If Jesus did make this vow, He didn't do it until He was on the cross. Jesus came into contact with several corpses and graves, and He drank wine before His crucifixion, so that would have nullified the vow had it be made before the cross.
Nonetheless, even if He had taken the vow and had long hair, it still cannot be His image on the shroud of Turin, because of the other evidence that disproves it as genuine.
Secondly, the image on the shroud has a short beard, when Judeans grew long beards according to scripturally-based tradition. Also, Isaiah prophesied that Jesus would have His beard plucked out.
“I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.” (Isaiah 50:6)
And finally, the most conclusive evidence of all that the shroud cannot possibly be connected to Jesus is this. The shroud is one piece of cloth and the Bible plainly says that the burial clothes of Jesus consisted of two pieces of cloth. One for His body and another for His head.
“Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.” (John 20:3-7)
The shroud is yet another attempt by Roman Catholic Church to present something in no way connected with Christ as a holy relic, to be venerated by believers. This is nothing short of idolatry, which is forbidden by God's 2nd commandment.
The evidence is clear. The shroud of Turin is not connected with Jesus and is mostly likely a elaborate hoax.
If people would only study the scriptures for themselves, rather than accepting every false claim as genuine, they would be armed with the truth and be able to resist these senseless claims.
@Jerry Poplin
So then, you believe the very few people who have studied (in depth) the authenticity of the shroud over God's word? Now that would be stupid.
@Jerry Poplin
I have seen several studies that completely debunk it. I believe God's word over 1,000 humans. The Bible says that Christ's grave clothes were two separate pieces of cloth, one for His body and one for His head. Believe what you want. I'll be going with God on this one and every other human dispute.
@Jerry Poplin
Did you not read my first post?
@Jerry Poplin
Wow, the insults just keep coming. First I' m stupid and now I'm unintelligent. What a nice person you are. Are you one of those who expects tolerance from everyone else, yet will not tolerate someone with a difference of opinion without insulting their intelligence? I think so.
@Jerry Poplin
Again with the insults.
There are no legitimate facts that can authenticate the shroud, if the word of God plainly contradicts those facts to utter shame.
And I knew that you would make the comparison to the word stupid and unintelligent, because that would be typical of someone who does't have a leg to stand on to misdirect the discussion by insulting the other party. I was merely pointing out that you first implied that I was stupid and then in the next comment implied that I was unintelligent. I never said that they meant something different. But I knew that you would go there because, well, your...
One fine point disqualifies the Shroud: "Jesus"--his real name Yahshua--was a Jew. Jews didn't have long hair--despite every icon or painting you ever saw. They were commanded by Torah to keep their hair trimmed (except during a Nazirite vow) and had he violated that, He would not have been sinless. I was a Shroud "fan" for a long time until I began learning Torah.
How do you define "long hair"? Do you have a Biblical definition of acceptable male hair length? I do not think the Scriptures anywhere stipulate the maximum hair length, except to say, as in Saint Paul, that a man must not have long hair like a woman. That might imply that women ought to have really long hair, and men a much shorter length, but how long is not defined. If women choose to have shorter hair length today, that does not mean the acceptable norm for men should be even shorter. Beware of reading too much into the Scriptures.
@@anselman3156 it can be hard to have a biblical definition of what long hair is since the people who wrote the Bible wrote it decades after the events happened.
It is as real as the sun and and the moon. Daring to doubt it is insane.
However, the Lord came to save siners not the righteous. So repent and believe the Gospel. Amen.
Te Amo, Te Amo, Te Amo,
Thank you..God bless. ☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️☀️🌝🌝🌝🌝🌝🌝🌝♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
If God is everywhere, isn’t everything touched by God? Why single this thing out?
Uhh doesn’t the shroud belong to the Catholic Church who once said they had the bones of Peter then found out later Peter grave was found in Jerusalem
Don’t believe this specially when the shroud belongs to the Catholic Church
The shroud has been dated to either the 13th or the 14th century CE.
Andre Carvalho
False. The repaired and clearly added sewn parts of the Shroud were taken for those samples in the late 80s and those carbon datings line up with who was in possession of the Shroud at that time, they align with the damages.
But the part of the image of the Shroud with the fine linen was never dated during those false examinations, of later parties involved have admitted to false testimony.
So the Vatican, when it provided the sample, meant to play a bit of a game. A bit like God in relation to ancient fossils. It’s all a test of people’s faith.
That late date has been proven to have been caused by contamination. The Shroud of Turin is indeed the authentic burial cloth of Jesus Christ . I have this from the Highest of Authorities.....
Argument from authority is literally the name of a logical fallacy. The bit of cloth was provided by the Vatican and was tested independently by three laboratory. The results were revealed only after the three tests had been completed. There is a difference of decades between two of the tests, and the third one estimated a date roughly a century later.
@@andrecarvalho3020 Think about it: the Vatican wouldn't know that the piece of cloth they provided was a part of the repaired section before it was tested, so your argument is weak. If in fact the piece that was provided was contaminated by repair fibers from the middle ages, then of course the dating results would consistently show a later date, if in fact their methodology was sound. Problem is, though, the original datings were not consistent; statistical analyses have been done demonstrating that the results are unreliable.
The second link I provided is to a paper by the lead chemist who first examined the Shroud, arguing why the section that was sampled was most certainly contaminated by repair fibers the Middle Ages. He also used a vanillin dating test, which indicated a much older date. Three subsequent datings have also shown a date much earlier than the Middle Ages.
Here's the abstract for one of those subsequent datings:
www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/S0218539317500061
If you believed the authenticity of the shroud, by extension, you are basically saying Jesus never resurrected. A body wrapped by a burial cloth for 3-4 days cannot make an impression like that. Secondly, how tall is the person in that shroud?
Did you listen on what he said?
When the best of Science and Technology can not explain how the image was created; and also when with the best of Science and Technology one cannot produce an object like the Shroud, it is better to listen to the voice of Faith.
There can be only one original, but fakes can be as many as you make.
But no one can create even one fake like the Shroud because it is the Only One Original.
I think that has been explained for quite sometime you take it or leave it
And by reproducing it depends on what you mean do you mean making a dead body ommit light or
In which case No one can because it never happened
Or is it reproducing the the actual cloth in which case its super easy no one just takes it seriously
Mid to low probability, 60 to 80 per cent. ( I made a mistake on my first comment).
Wow Wow Wow
Carbon 14 dating says it's 700 years old. So it's a big scam.
Relics make me uncomfortable.
Believe it is real and try prove that it is not.🙏
The Shroud image is so incredible that the burden of proof rests on those who think it is a forgery.
"Is the Shroud of Turin the Authentic Burial Cloth of Jesus?"
No, it is a middle age artefact plain and simple
@Ju Err
Oh, is that right? Then please present the peer reviewed science that confirms this is a first century burial cloth and then the science that somehow confirms this is necessarily the Jesus referred to in the anonymously written gospels
PS Stop liking your own comment, it's lame
@Ju Err
Debunked eh? Perhaps you ought to read up yourself...
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turin-shroud-latest-fake-forgery-scientific-blood-pattern-spatter-study-carbon-dating-debunked-a8450101.html
I am a dedicated Shroudie and researched it quite a bit.
search on "ray woods shroud carbon dating" for an atheist scientist who confirmed before his death that the carbon dating was flawed/wrong.
The three samples were taken from the same small corner and sent to three separate labs.
Yes, they got "late" results, but in that corner was later material that was added to repair the frayed corner.
The process is called "invisible french weave" and it consisted of adding a patch that was carefully woven into the original fabric and then dyed to match the Shroud.
There are a few secular documentaries on this controversy.
Every other data point supports the Shroud -- linen weave, pollen, descriptions from history and matching blood stains on the Soudarium of Oviedo, which is said to be the cloth wrapped around His head.
@Ju Err point to the scientific paper that was peer reviewed by other SCIENTISTS that concluded there is a god.
@Ju Err typical dishonest theists. You all lie...constantly.
100% authentic .....that's a fact
Lol except it isn’t a fact. It’s a fake.
M C can you show your research? Because I read a lot about it and I can say it’s most def not fake.
They found blood on it researched the blood and no human has the blood it was found on it. Because there were no X chromosomes in it. Also nobody can fake such an artefact NOBODY I hear some people claim that it’s from the Middle Ages but this also isn’t true because the shroud was almost burnt in a fire and they took the corner piece of the shroud that was almost burned. So they based the dating on the fire that occurd.
God bless
@@vazgl100 well sir it doesn't matter what the Vatican says because its not an official church teaching. So people can decide themselves. The Vatican is not infallible in all matters. Also there are enough scientists and people inside the Vatican that do believe its the real deal.
Even if it was dated to 2000 years ago, how do you show that it belonged to one particular man? There must have been tens of thousands of bearded men who were crucified at the time.
Yes but being nailed and having crown of thorns were unprecedented.
@@skyhr true, only the "king of the Jews" had a crown of thorns...and his legs were not broken, unlike the two thieves who were crucified with him, their legs were broken.
Also, I don't think there were "tens of thousands" of people crucified. Crucifixion was a rare form of execution reserved only for the worst criminals, to my knowledge.
And again, the crown of thorns and unbroken legs shown in the shroud narrows it down extremely.
@@skyhr The STURP team - "We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist." “The answer to the question of how the image was produced or what produced the image remains, now, as it has in the past, a mystery.”
So, it is not made by man, and in all circumstance (forensic) it appears to be Jesus Christ, as described in the bible.
Occam's razor (principle of parsimony) - "the simplest explanation is usually the best one." - It is the image of Jesus Christ on the shroud.
@@jotunman627 Amen!
I imagine if you sculpted a Christ figure. And then you painted it and had oil on it. Then left it out in the sun and heated it. Afterwards placed the cloth on it. Maybe whatever residue on it will evaporate onto the cloth. Who knows..
FTIR was used along with neutron activation analysis they both look for organic, or inorganic paint residue and NOTHING was found. Besides the image fibers would have darkened DEEPER into the fiber with a paint because of the WICKING effect. WICKING of cloth fibers always happens due to the properties of plant fibers and any liquid substance. It's how water gets sucked up into the tree to feed upper trunk and leaves.
Couldn't you just put a stencil over it and lay it out in the sun for a while?
If someone believes the Turin Shroud is genuine, they'll probably believe anything.
Not confirming or denying anything about the shroud cause I really don't know, but if people are willing to deny the shrouds authenticity without evidence, and when presented with at least unusual evidence still deny, their probably never going to be convinced no matter where the truth would take them. This kind of thinking unfortunately has taken over modern atheism(talking about uneducated atheists). Some atheists won't even admit Jesus existed..
@@joshuaphilip7601 The evidence that Jesus existed is very thin. There isn't a single original manuscript from the first century that describes him, there isn't any contemporary source of any kind about him, there is no archaeological sources or numismatic (coin) evidence for his existence. Plus, whilst there may have been an historical Jesus, that doesn't mean that much or even any of the events in the Gospels took place (walking on water, raising people from the dead etc.), so there's really nothing odd or ridiculous about saying that he didn't exist at all.
The image on the shroud is too complex to be a forgery and has 3D info on it. Our modern technology couldn’t replicate it, so why think it’s a forgery? Also Josephus, Tacitus(the greatest Roman historian), the Talmud, the gospels, the epistles and more disagree with you.
Says someone who blindly rejects the Shroud, ignores the facts just to confirm his bias.
Zarahification you have a bias, too
It’s nice to know historic fact is subject to what mood he’s in 😂
Well you missed the probability he mentioned and what he said seems fairly reasonable if you think of it.
Short answer- nope