CURRENT STRENGTH OF THE SPACE WOLVES! A LEGION REBORN?
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- Опубліковано 13 січ 2022
- Hi all Rho here! Today we discuss the current strength of the Space Wolves chapter!
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Guilliman gives tools to those he knows will use them. The Wolves are not a reclusive chapter focusing on small tiny parts of the galaxy, they will respond to every call for help they possibly can. They will use their weight to actually defend the wider Imperium. Guilliman knows this, which is why he gave them such a substantial amount of Primaris. He has no doubt of their intentions or loyalty, after all, Russ was one of The Dauntless Few. The sons of the Wolf King will always stand between humanity and its enemies.
Heahea
B M Amen to that.
Well said
How many marines did he give to the Space Wolves?
not m
Having a bolstered Legion of Wolves also keeps the eclesiarchy honest. If the high lords turned against Gman, they know the wolves would instantly pick his side in the conflict and strike them down.
The stronger the Wolves get, the more the Grey Knights sweat.
@@dac314 honestly idk about that statement, I think it is more the Inquisition itself as a whole that would be sweating a LOT.
And Brother captain Stern from the grey-knights saw the wulfen that came out from the warp after 10 000 years, the 13th compagie and also some of Russ's own that had departed whit him and by his own eyes saw that none of the wulfen had even a hint of chaos corruption on them.
I think this is the answer but I want to say it's because he knows Big Daddy Russ is coming back! AWWRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Yeah Big G knows what he's doing. Little doggies need the wiggle room and he gives them it all.
@@dac314 To be fair, it was mostly the inquisition being dicks. The Gk were strung along and they weren't too happy about it either.
I think Guilliman is always a pragmatist and allowing the Wolves to grow will give him the same tool the Emperor needed, e.g. one that can be let off the leash at need. Or perhaps he just knew the rate of attrition and estimated that if the SW started with 5,000+ Primaris, they'd end up just around standard Codex size within a few years.
Yeah I just don't think Guilliman really cares too much about the specific size of the space wolves so long as they're not throwing their weight around and trying to run the wider imperium, gainsay him or work against his crusades.
Maybe he looked at the Space Wolves history and saw that they have proven themselves to be utterly loyal to the Imperium and its citizens, holding an even higher standard then the Imperium itself. So he figured chances of them going traitor were minimal so if they wished to break the rules by being a little bigger, no worries. And if anything he needs larger battlegroups then the basic 100 man company or a 1000 man chapter. Rather then group several chapters together in battlegroups and have them bicker over who is in charge he can allocate more troops to trustworthy chapters and have the advantage of unified command. I reckon he could easily also give the Black Templars 10.000 Primaris marines and know they will get shit done and never rebel. And there is of course that a great number of chapters that used to exist before the Great Rift formed are now lost, presumably no longer in existence. Rather then waste time and resources on creating new ones, doubling or tripling reliable existing ones seems like an easier solution. In the short term that is.
I think people sometimes forget that Russ was one of Guilliman's "Dauntless Few". The Wolves hold a special place in Guilliman's eyes, he knows The Wolves will always be on his side one way or another.
I agree. Guilliman was concerned about someone misusing the power of a Legion, but in retrospect, how many problems could have been solved if the true, loyal sons of Russ had the support and resources they needed?
@@BM-wf9uf Problem with that is so was Rogal Dorn, the same Dorn who Guilliman nearly went to war with over the Legion breakdown.
I'd be more inclined to believe that the Wolves were so low in number that Guilliman simply didn't care about their lack of enthusiasm in the Legion breakdown and had no real issue with any Primarch not wanting to adhere to his strategy guides.
I forget which one, but in one of the Dark Imperium books Guilliman comes right out and says perhaps he made a mistake breaking up the Legions, that he should have trusted his brothers more than he did.
Every decision Guilliman makes is based on logic and reasoning with the best information he has. I think the decision to break the legions was the right one at the time. The High Lords and the rest of the Imperium were baying for blood after the Heresy. Guilliman couldn't foresee what state the Imperium would be in millennia down the track. But you are right, his decision to break the legions has no doubt contributed to the current state of things.
It makes sense for the wolves to get a fare larger share of the Primaris “pie” them most other chapters. We know Crawl made an equal 9-way split of the total Primaris marines. Since only one chapter had Russ as dad, they could be given tens of thousands of Russ-Primaris. They would also be key in founding new chapters. Guilleman does prefer for new Primaris chapters to be founded in contact with the mother-chapter.
As for Blood Angels. Guilleman made Dante official commander of that bloodline, as well as Warden, Dante send many thousands of warriors and entire Chapters home or away from Baal to fulfill their ancestral obligations and defend theirs own homes, but we know more than 9 thousand marines from several chapters of the Blood remain under Dantes command in Battlegroup Nihilus. Dante already has a mini legion.
Ps, a legion is not a set size, but anything less than 50.000 is not big enough Imo. The smallest crusade legion was 75-80.000 strong and the largest, the Ultramarines was a monstrous 250.000.
An even nine fold split wouldn't make any sense as the Space Wolves were always one of the smallest legions even during the Great Crusade, while the Ultramarines were always the largest. There just wouldn't be enough geneseed to create that many Space Wolves Primaris marines while on the other hand Cawl would have had to discard excess Ultramarine geneseed because he already had enough for a fully even split? I reckon most of the Primaris marines that Cawl made were Ultramarines, just because they had the most available geneseed to begin with. And it probably explains why Chapter Masters of other Primarch descent were hesitant to accept them as they rightly suspected that a good number of the new recruits were of unknown (read: Ultramarine) descent. And even if the new recruits were loyal, brothers from another mother as it were, it would mean a watering down of their genetic line.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 not true. We have canon confirmation from Crawl and Guilleman both in "Avenging Son" that crawl made an equal number of all 9 loyal bloodlines. The Ultramarines are no longer the dominant bloodline, although still the largest.
Your mistake is logical. Crawl produced Primaris Gene-seed himself. He had the ability to make an even number of any type.
The smallest legions where the thousand sons and the white scars who had 10,000. it was down to doctrines and how they fought.
@@TheStandardOperator Sorry mate, it isn't your fault, but somewhere around "The First Heretic" GW realised their earlier numbers for marines in the Legions were fare too low. In "A Thousand Sons" we were told that that Legion had around 11.000 marines, but later that number is stated to be 75.000
Istvan 5 goes from 40.000 marines fighting 30.000 to 400.000 vs 300.000 and so on. The wiki has the updated list based on the Forgeworld Black Books, if you are interested.
The smalls legions was the Thousands Sons and The Raven Guard with around 75-85.000 marines each.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 correction: the Ultramarines were NOT always the largest legion, and only took that position after the Third Rangdan Xenocide, taking that position from one of only two Legions trusted enough to prosecute that war.
I can't remember where i read it but i remember reading that Blackmane had the largest company at 350+ warriors followed by grimnars at 320 that was pre sundering
I remember reading 200-300 wolves per great company, but i can‘t remember where. But the 350+ feels familiar, maybe Sactus Reach
@@corranhuss yeah that rings a bell :)
I think it's a combination of two factors for Guilliman. First is his distaste for what the Imperium has become and how insular most of its leaders are. He sees nothing but factions that care only for their own interests and not the Imperium at large. And I think he sees his breaking of the Legions as contributing factor in this as it lead to small forces that only focus on local areas and never become proactive in defense against all the Imperium's enemies. His actions have been to give resources to those who will use them not horde them. In the blood angles he saw how Dante could rally every chapter of the blood, so no need to form super legion as Dante leads a default legion and was willing to use it. In the Wolves they are stated to try and answer every call for aid, something most chapters out there will not do. Same with the Templar as they are always seeking out new crusade and fighting the enemies of the Imperium. This allows him to create large forces that will stabilize the Imperium without a rebellion by the current powerful leaderships of the Imperium's factions, as they won't see new large threats to their personal power just the same factions that have always been there. It sets the stage for a power base that can curtail the decaying elements of the Imperium and in the future can be used to replace them.
Nice answer
breaking the legions was never meant to be permanent from what i understand. just a stopgap rebalancing of power while they rebuilt. he probably would have had each chapter grow drastically if he didnt get knifed. he may have even gone with mixed legions like the astral claws did. having astartes embedded in the imperial guard as commanders.
@@conan2096 where does it say that? i never heard that
@@ruipinho619 considering his reaction i dont think it was a long term plan and the astral claws were doing a really good job for a while, despite the imperiums best efforts. they were basically making a mini ultramar while under siege from all sides and with no support.
1) Their loyalty is beyond a shadow of a doubt
2) They're extremely resistant to chaotic corruption
3) Much like the Sons of the Lion, they get things done that other chapters simply cannot
I agree.
Guilliman knows the Wolves were his Father's executioners. He knows the Wolves and Templars are his most effective tools against Chaos.
The inquisition tried telling the wolves what to do and look how that turned out I doubt Guilliman would do better.
Still love the idea of the Inquisition banging on the door of the Fang full of piss and vinegar until Bjorn answers the door and they shit themselves.
@@drunkengamer1977 I know right then the whole fleet of wolves just show up full of Astartes piss and vinegar and the whooping commences.
Depends. Guilliman is a better diplomat than the inquisition. Those guys mostly say “do what i want or die” that definitely doesnt work with the wolves.
@@recker18 good point
I had always assumed each Great Company acted as it's own chapter, having 1000+ per company. The Templars do that exact thing in each Crusade. To think from there, going from 12,000 marines to 700 is quite the loss. It also would explain why so many Primaris were "crafted" for the Wolves. They are meant to be distributed amongst the companies, but haven't been yet.
Also, the Wolves codex allows for successor chapters. This could be utilized by Black Library to have books for successor companies, and a place to siphon off any excess Primaris Marines that bloat any given existing Great Company.
It was actually told in earlier editions each company was around 300 strong.
@@Spacefrisian came here to mention this, well said
Except there are Templar crusades that are a squad, at least in the pre-retcon lore. They got nerfed hard when the BT "got religion" and started whining about why Empy doesn't let them have witches, so that may have gone away. GW was trying desperately to get out of the lore hole they had dug themselves into and reduce the BT from a pocket legion back into a chapter. Amusingly enough, the one thing pre and post-retcon BT would have been 100% in agreement on would be rejecting the Primaris heresy. So, it appears GW dug themselves out of another lore hole by apparently making Helbrecht treat Girlyman as Jebus instead of the arse Dorn disagreed with.
For me, it always made far more sense for Girlyman, founder of Imperium Secondus and political opportunist extraordinaire, to have circumventing the Nikea Decree as one of the major reasons for the Codex Astartes doctrine. The decree was against Legions and if all that was left was Chapters with witches, then the Emperor's edict wasn't valid on a technicality...
Chapter serf forces, mainly support, but some combatants, are a thing, with Wolf navy having ships entirely crewed with serfs and one Marine commander and if there are more Marines they act as, well, a marine contingent mostly. A small BT crusade force would be the same.
about 15 or wo years ago there was a mention of approximate strength that only gave 2 numbers. the Great Company of Logan Grimnar being about 400-600 strong as he preferred to keep seasoned veterans and experts in the use of terminator army as the bulk of his force. and the Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane as having somewhere near 1500 as his was hte most active great company of the time and he prefered to take on as many new recruits as Grimnar would allow to fill his ranks with Assault and fast attack forces. so you have to extrapolate from that that the other Great Companies are at least nearing 1000, or in the high hundreds.
but new people come and new things get written and now the past stories can be changed and even some from my older codices erased. but yeah i always imagined that given the Description of their fleets in the books that they must be nearly 8,000 strong and have a lot more power in the stars than even the black templars.
i would include the Dark Angels in the list with the Space Wolves and Black Templers. At any time Azrael could take command of all the Unforgiven "chapters", the Dark Angels are a legion in all but name
Exactly this.
Blood Angels as well now
Perhaps the Lord commander views this as necessary "evil" in the grand scheme. The ferocity of the Vlka Fenryka and Black Templars are definitely needed now more than ever. That and maybe the thought of more chapters becoming like the Red Corsairs is a good enough reason to allow this
i want the Salamanders and Space wolves to go against the Codex astartes and start rebuilding legion numbers.
Ya after guilliman saw how different the imperium had become he was disillusioned to everything and started to question his own decision like creating the chapters or he is just seeing how the change of times require a change in policy to overcome the new threats
TTS said it, Girlyman broke the defensive bulwark of the Legions into the rotten picket fence of Chapters.
Maybe it's just how I read the old SW novels, but I always had the presumption that each Great Company was the size of a regular marine Chapter, which is how they skirted around the Codex rules and still kept their strength up.
One theory that I had is that the Wolves seemed to be more concerned & confined to their own territorial sphere of influence from the Ragnar omnibuses, even though they had the Wolfblade detachment on Terra, I'd be surprised if they mustered more than 20 Astartes given the High Lords & Navigators mistrust of the Wolves in general.
“A legion reborn”
*laughs in unforgiven*
Be cool if the Wolves had figured out the Tempering before the Primaris became a thing.
The Vylka Fenrika was much larger in the beginning, however, they destroyed the 2nd and the 11th and censured Angron’s legion before taking on the Thousand Son’s. By that time they had spent a lot of their strength. They would be a much smaller legion because when you break 4 legions you are bound to lose a lot of brothers.
In truth look at how many chapters there are on the other side of the rift that are sons of the blood. It's damn near legion size under Dantes command. Russ has one chapter of his bloodline so it only makes sense to me for RG to do this.
I am betting most of those Primaris are there to learn the way of the Wolves and once done will go out to form there own Chapters.
As for having high numbers I can think of two reasons:
1) Roboute Guilliman most likely knows having Chapters of higher numbers are needed for certain areas, and with him in control being High Commander the Space Wolves and their Successor Chapters will have higher numbers but won't have as many Chapters.
2) Sons of Russ need Certain requirements in this case biological so no one has to worry with them reaching to high in numbers.
I find the proof of this is in Wolf Spear and the fact they use Great Companies.
I believe Guilliman has gifted the Wolves and Templars with extra marines out of guilt to his missing brothers. With Russ he split his legion for them to fail and die further impacting the massive loss of the heresy. With Dorn, he literally threw himself and his legion at a fortress to cull numbers and his anger at the Codex, again massively depleting one of the most loyal and steadfast of legions. All because Roboute was paranoid of another heresy his brothers had sacrificed and lost more sons than Guilliman had lost in the entire heresy
I've never heard the opinion that Guilliman felt guilty about Dorn going after Perturabo before. Interesting.
I think the only thing RG regretted was coming to late to Terra to protect his father. Russ must felt shame because he did not kill Horus .
and Dorn im not sure why wanted to kill his own sons seems pretty stupid thing to do
@@MartinMess Im certain he didn't want to kill his own sons, That's more excusatory theory fabrication by the fans more than anything, if dorn wanted to cull his numbers he would've absolutely told everyone considering he's not a hider nor a liar. That is literally his main character
He probably wasn't just expecting Perturabo to do him so dirty on the iron cage
I did the math not too long ago, and based on the info out there, figured the Space Wolves around the time of the Ragnar Blackmane novels numbered around 1300 Astartes. That WASN'T counting the 13th Company.
That idea that a Chapter of, say, 1000 Marines is going to make any difference in a Galaxy consisting of millions of planets, is silly to put it mildly. GW'S numbers should be multiplied by 1000 at least.
The thing is: Space Marines in the 41st Millennium were supposed to be special forces, not the front line soldiers like the Imperial Guard is. The split was meant to prevent another Horus Heresy from happening. And, as we know it, it worked relatively well, even though way-too-many loyal chapters were condemned for petty reasons...
I always felt the 1000 number was a weird one, as 10 companies of 100 fighting battle brothers each kinda made sense. But what about the tech marines and other support staff that a company needs to function? With all that kit logically each company would need dozens of tech marines to operate and maintain all the vehicles. Medical staff should also be a lot bigger. Other logistical staff? And what about those Marines that commanded a Chapter's ships? In modern armies for every fighting man there's at least 2 to 3 men behind the frontline in support. Logically, if a Chapter could only have a 1000 astartes period its fighting strength should be a lot lower. And if its fighting strength is actually 10 companies of 100 frontline soldiers each, then the total number of astartes should be at least 1500 to 2000 including support troops.
I can only conclude that GW when they came up with the concept was utterly clueless as to how modern militaries actually function.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 either that or specialists exist outside the thousand
@@TheKlink It just has to be. It's the only thing that makes sense.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 i too have Made those observations, only way to make it work is not count specialist.
The Big Blue realized that it would be best "to let sleeping wolves lie."
In ages past, there was a codex and new model release for the Space Wolves. White Dwarf had an article about the size of the chapter, saying that each great company was a chapter in and unto itself. The article stated the Great Wolf maintained control by having, in addition to his own Great Company, control of the various priests (iron, rune, and wolf). And the size of the chapter, with all the Great Companies gathered together was estimated at over ten thousand.
I do recognize that GW backtracked on this number in later releases. But as a venerable Space Wolf player, this was the number I always upheld as most likely and true.
I wouldn't be surprised of the scouring series will give us a lot of new 2nd founding chapters. Just too great a chance to establish some cool new chapters or flesh out some old existing ones.
The interesting thing to note, is how few firstborn Space Wolves are even left at this point. Lore accurate Space Wolf lists would be almost exclusively Primaris, what with 700 first born left out against seeminly 3k plus Primaris. Come on GW we need Primaris Blood Claws now more than ever lol.
I think the Wolves and the Black Templar are given more forces because of the chapters, these two seem more proactive than reactive. Space Wolves will deploy based on visions from the Skalds, without need of Imperial request for aide. The Black Templars are constantly crusading and charging into new battles. Both go anywhere in the galaxy that there is a fight while most chapters have regions and territories they observe. The Templars and the Wolves battle across the breadth of the Imperium.
dont forget the 13th are coming back that would put the frist born sons of russ well over 1000
Skalds are storytellers and historians not prophets in SW lore.
I know some people are keen to remove firstborn marines but I hope iconic units like blood claws and grey hunters don't get the primaris treatment.
@@ge9367 You are correct sir Skalds are the storytellers and historians of the chapter. I sought to use the term as short hand for RUNE PRIEST as the Rune Priests are the ones who educate the skalds and my brain created an imaginary A to B that Skalds must be young Rune Priests. But regardless the wolves are guided by separate prophecy generation, the point still stands.
And don't convince yourself for a second that there won't be Primaris Grey hunters or Blood Claws. It is honestly irrational to assume they won't happen given the BT release not to mention since Primaris appeared things like that have been what MOST people have been asking for, to negate the boring standard nature of the Primaris.
@@johnathangoldsworthy Yeah but they are all Wulfen if I recall correctly so it isn't quite and I assumed they were already accounted for unless I'm mixing up the timeline. I'd love to get more info if you could point me in the direction. :)
@@Writh811 I know, the writing appears to be on the wall! 😂
It'll be interesting to see primaris Grey Hunters - 2A base +1A with a chainsword + bolt rifle.
Space Wolves do not follow Girlyman's rules in the slightest.
Neither does he anymore.
To be fair, Guilliman seems to be doing the same lately lol
I think Guiliman has reviewed history and seen the Fists can come together as a legion and saw the Blood Angels fighting as a Legion I doubt he ever trusted the Lion to fully brake his Legion and he will remember the Wolves never bothered in the first place of the rest only the White Scars had enough to really worry about and they are happy to be small raiding forces and not really empire builders anyway so the question becomes did he change it or just acknowledge no one who mattered listed in the first place. Gill is nothing if not adaptable and the biggest problem he was addressing was actually his Legion anyway! Since he can pull them together with a click of his fingers the Chapter thing seems to be a little redundant.
The problem with wolves (my fav btw) is the blood claws consistently get themselves killed.
Robusta knew his brother was only humoring the Second Founding in the first place and the sons of Russ in this new, even darker time are just as adamant about non-interference from any outside source; only the Emperor could ever truly bring the Vylka Fenryka to heel.
I do think guilliman is gonna bring the legions back but there is a question in my head what about the chapters who don't know their parent? What about blood ravens or my personal favorites soul drinkers will they be just put into a legion that they have the most connection to? Or would they be independent or emperor knows if he learns some chapters are from traitor gene maybe he will make a say a loyal thousand sons legion just imagine it but like I said soul drinkers there is a possibility of them being lost primarch so what will they do? Ik the lost primarchs and legions will never be explained but just image the soul drinkers they will have a lot of problems but again the galaxy was never kind to soul drinkers
Definitely remember reading in a novel around 6th/ 7th edition that Russ did a sneaky and said he’d break the legion into the 12 great companies but would t call them chapters because you know Russ was like that and rowboat had too much on his hands check. Then plus the wolf brothers gives you 13 chapter sized elements at the time of the scouring.
GW over the years in the codexes has also released the breakdowns of individual great company at one point back in 8 I think the math worked out to about 200 in the blackmanes alone
Honestly I think this is just GW realising that 1000 marines is a crazy small number in a setting as climatic as described in 40k. I mean an ork waaagh is supposed to be millions strong right?
Billions of Orcs which is why the Guard does loads of work as well
Two issues.
1. If Marines were portrayed on the tabletop as they are in the lore, then at a bare minimum they would obliterate tabletop Custodes. The FF Inquisition RPG did a good job at a kill team level of portraying this, where Marines are almost immune to small arms fire. Guard on table have 1/6 chance of wounding a Marine per shot, in FF game it is like 1/100.
2. As others have said, Marines are hyper elite, with the rough numbers boiling down to one per Imperial planet. A squad of Marines spread out with a regiment of Guard (500+ troops plus supports minimum, more likely 1000+) in two man elements would be fluffy. Heck 1000 points of Custodes (remember I consider lore Marines to be close to equal to tabletop Custodes) with 1000 points of Guard would be nasty to face. Currently, GW doesn't want mixed fluffy lists, so...
It fit the setting perfectly as SM aren’t meant for siege warfare…that’s the guards job. SM are for rapid striking.
@@willnox1 Actually, I get the feeling that the Astartes line was meant to be more of a constabulary force, or at least large chunks of them, mainly to respond to internal issues. More like cops or MPs. Don't get me wrong, depending on the situation MPs can and do fight and often spearhead movements, but they are not heavy shock infantry with integrated armor and artillery like mechanized infantry would be.
Sure, some of the Legions are potentially more capable, but even cops are divided into groups with different jobs. There is a reason governments like training paramilitary cops who view the population as the "enemy".
Great video as always, Rho. The wolves have always been a legion or chapter set apart. They held a special place during the Great Crusade so I think Bobby G wants them to continue to do it. They seem to be explicitly legioned up. There are other chapters who seem to be doing it more quietly. The Dark Angels seem to be doing it but are pretending they're not. The Blood Angels continue to work together too, although Seth and Dante have always had their differences. The Black Templars (even though not one of the original legions) seem to be way past the 1000 limit themselves. Guillliman knows this is going on and he seems to be fine with it. I think you're right about him realizing breaking the legions into chapters was a mistake.
Primaris if I remember right take more time to "make" into a space marine then the first born. And it has been said that the chapters that where not fully Primaris chapters are still making non-primaris marines. Well at least for now until GW changes that also. This still leaves room for GW to play around with the lore and numbers of some of the old legions. From what I remember back in 7th edition it was looked at if each great company was around the size of 200 marines on average. This would have meant the wolves, at least when the war for Fenris happened, had around 3,000 marines for both the Blackmanes and Champions of Fenris had more then the others. In the books it wasn't clear how much was lost in the fight for the system but was hinted at about 1/3 was lost between the fight for Fenris and Cadia. This doesn't include the Wulfen at all. I haven't read myself what became of the Wulfen after the wars, not sure if it was said or not, but if I remember right the Wulfen numbered the size of a great company themselves. In the Wolftime, which I haven't read yet, Wolf Lord Rho says a number around 700 was given. Then later in the book he said that Blackmane was back by about 1,000 and Grimnar had thousands more with him. I believe a more closer number for the strength of the Space Wolves would be around 12,000 to 15,000 marines. With the 13th great company back into action they would have been giving some Primaris also, unless like Grimnar the Wolf Lord didn't trust them at first.
I thought he did build the Blood Angels back up massively as well?
What we need is comparative numbers (marines, ships etc).
Chapter Master of the Blood Angel is now in overall commander of the Blood Angel successors but each chapter still kept separated.
Most of the resources under Dante is for Regent of Dark Imperium not Blood Angel.
It is just that the Chapter master of BA and Regent are the same one seeing Baal now the capital
The Wolves have a defined function.
The Avenging Son was merely continuing the instructions of his father.
Reestablishing the Wolves in the function The Emperor intended for them.
We are the Executioners, the blood-stained axe.
Rho I can't believe your almost at 100k! I think I was here pretty early on, your first few k I Think? Keep up the good work 👏
In the Plague War serie (dark imperium and cie) he clearly said that it was a mistake. That back in the time it seems to be the best choice but that in fact the imperium loose all capacity to lead a real major war with chapter
I think he's doing it to troll Magnus for chasing him.
12:30 Guilliman has a soft spot for both Russ and Dorn, so he’s likewise soft on the Space Wolves and the Black Templars.
Havent had some Fulgrim content in a while, would love a video on if you think he is under-rated at all, feels like he was hyped up to be as good as the Khan at the begining. Now due to early book syndrome people think he is worse than Rogal Dorne, keep up the good work Wolf Lord!
I would put the Wolf's strength under normal time would be 2,000-3,500 PrePrimarius now it might be around 5,000 so close to Legion sized again.
Ultramarines - 250,000[8]
Dark Angels - Slightly under 200,000[26]
Iron Warriors - 150,000 to 180,000[16a]
Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000[7c][Note 3]
World Eaters - 150,000[7d]
Word Bearers - More than 100,000 to 150,000[6][10]
Blood Angels - 120,000[10]
Night Lords - 90,000 to 120,000[15a]
Iron Hands - 113,000[15b]
Emperor's Children - 110,000[7f]
Imperial Fists - 100,000[11][Note 1]/over 100,000[20]
Space Wolves - 95,000 - 100,000[21]
Death Guard - 95,000[7e]
White Scars - 95,000[24]
Alpha Legion - Conflicting accounts ranging from 90,000 to 180,000[16b]
Salamanders - 89,000[15c]
Raven Guard - 80,000[9]
Thousand Sons - 85,000[21a]
"so close to Legion sized again"
anything below 25k is just a battlegroup
10k for a legion is stupid and GW realized it was stupid so they made the legions larger, in my head cannon 1k is too low for chapters, so i always think of chapters being closer to 10k.
As in the remnants of the legions guys I know they once where hundreds of thousands.
@@vegankowalski5193 what do all the random numbers and letters mean??
Imagine if Gulliman stands up after the plauge wars and says to all current chapter masters, time to rebuild the legions
I love how the black Templar and space wolves both ‘yea yea codex astartes..we’ll follow it ’
One also needs to consider. Gulliman has already conceeded how his Codex Astartes - has been interpreted - and the limitations of 1000 per chapter was a mistake
It allowed the Traitor Legions the ability overwhelm smaller separate chapters.
Not all chapters like Ultramarines or Blood Angels or Imperial Fists have their successors to hand.
I would not be surprised of the Space Wolves number in the multiple thousands. Probably 10000 at least.
The blood angels have had their primaris bolstering a in the thousands, they imply that in Darkness in The Blood, during the scene when the council of blood and bone meet. Definitely not to the extent of the Wolves but considering that the members of the blood consider themselves all brothers so the 25ish remaining chapters consider themselves unified.. but still honoring their chapters heritages. It’s also important to remember that the wolves have effectively an impossible bloodline to create successors with so instead of bolstering the subsequent chapters with Primaris Guilliman gave them the reinforcements they desperately needed. I was also under the impression they were harkening in the 700 Battle-brothers range, but with the Primaris bolster that tracks actually.
Regarding the query of the blood angels, possibly because they had many established chapters it was simply easier to put Dante in charge of the other chapters than specifically bump the specific chapter up to legion figures, whereas the Wolves don't have successors.
Also how many wolves have fallen to chaos vs blood angels?
Thanks for the video
Guilliman always respected Russ and his legion as the ultimate failsafe. The emperor created the wolves as the most loyal legion and his final sanction against chaos as the wolves high resistance to chaos shows. Guilliman is just reinforcing his fathers plans knowing he can count on the wolves to be always on the side of mankind even if all others fall and having them almost back at legion strength is just the PRACTICAL thing to do. Also he knows he screwed up by breaking the legions as he admits himself in the dark imperium books as his Ultramarine empire is nothing like he left it
A thought about rebuilding the blood Angels: we dont know for sure that they are not being built up bigger than a chapter, and Dante has demonstrated an ability to pull most of the sons of sanguinius together in emergencies, building an impromptu legion when its needed. With all the sons of the blood getting primaris, this pseudo legion might very well be called together again, much as the sons of Dorn do when the Last Wall is called or the sons of the Lion do in pursuit of the fallen. With such a structure, they can be a legion when they need strength, and disband when it is politically inconvenient to be such a large singular fighting force. Guilliman is clearly trying to set up something similar with his own sons as well. So is really giving the wolves a longer leash, or are they just more honest about it? And most everyone trusts the space wolves; the sons of Russ much lauded for their loyalty, considered by the general masses second only to the Dark Angels in loyalty. In reality we know the wolves to have an even better track record than the Unforgiven, and Guilliman probably knows or suspects too (Cypher did help him get to terra after all. Who knows what Cypher told Guilliman in private) and is keeping that close to his chest as a potential bargaining chip should the Unforgiven get uppity or the Lion return. So if anyone could be trusted to maintain legion strength or close to it at all times, I bet Guilliman would trust the wolves over even his own sons. They simply have proven themselves worthy of such trust through action where others have fallen short
If space wolves NEED Fenrisian humans to make new marines, how did the Terran space wolves survive?
They were directly created by the emperor himself. As with most things, the perfected way in which he made new marines with uncorrupted genestock, was lost to time. They were closer to what the emperor had designed them for.
IMO all founding chapters should be raised to 10,000 marines. With all chapters being 3,000. 1,000 is just not big enough to deal with the bigger threats, but 3,000 isn't so big that going rogue would cause a problem. As for the founders if one legion did go rogue it would cause damage but wouldn't be unbeatable at 10,000. I had a crazy thought, why is guilliman not a psycher? If you think about it for a second his gift is primarily a mental one, should that not translate to psycher powers? That said I do think it would have to be a support style psycher. Thoughts anyone?
Well... What you write makes sense. But given RG orderly tendenies, he could end up as a Graeter Deamon of the God of Order (Big E), with a great antichaotic bent (think Russ). So, an Imperial Saint.
Guilliman has given the wolves most of the primaris bearing the Canis Helix because they're the only sons of russ. The ultramarine, blood angels, dark angels, imperial fists etc have many successors to spread the primaris around.
Guilliman explains it quite clearly in the novel, The Wolves are more than just a chapter, they are a symbol and if they were to die off the repercussions across the Imperium would be vast. He gives them so many reinforcements because he knows they won't hide in their fortress and lick their wounds but he can't afford to have them die out either.
Gman did what he needed to do at the post heresy time. So, too, now, it is neccessary to bolster numbers of chapters that are absolutely beyond reproach.
I think Bobby G gave all 1st founding chapters the same number of primaris reinforcements but because the Space Wolves did not have any successors they received the equivalent of a 1st founding chapter and its successors of primaris. When we see the salamanders in action we may see similar numbers as the space wolves because they didn't have successors because the lost pretty much everything after the heresy.
I would say proto legion as most legions where around 100k Astartes and no current 40K force is close. However the proto legions numbered in the Thousands and tens of thousands.
I've always had trouble reconciling chapter size with. . well. . anything. They tell us standard chapter size is 1000 but nothing ever corroborates that. The art doesn't. The art shows us *thousands* of marines. In every chapter.
The lore claims that a single marine could pacify small planets but then you RARELY actually see that IN lore and it definitely isn't demonstrated on the table top. You WILL have casualties in an average game that cast heavy doubt that they only have 1,000. Hell, even the lore does that in a lot of cases. It wouldn't be sustainable.
Who drives all the vehicles? Who crews all the ships? Yes, I know serfs and servitors fulfill a lot of that but every ship has at least a squad or a couple marines onboard. Are they yanking people from companies? Vehicles are usually driven by techmarines so do chapters just have a metric fukkton of techmarines?
For me, I feel that Chapter sizes should've been somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000. It would just make more sense.
Now we just need the return of the wolf king and all enemies of man will fear the wolves of Fenris
Guilliman is doing the same with the blood angels, making Dante regent and assigning the remnants of the succcesor chapters to his command (so certainly more than a chapters worth of veteran first born ) and then reinforcing many of those chapters with primaris and creating some new sanguinary successor chapters. Thousands of primaris giving Dante possibly up to true legion numbers at around, one would hope, numbers approaching the 30,000+ assembled to defend Baal. Grimnar’s maybe 5-10k is less than 20% of the typical pre heresy legion where as Dante’s 30k would be on a par with a smaller pre heresy legion such as, ironically, the space wolves
I know it has been brought up many times, but what kind of math is gw doing? 700 wolves to support a portion of the galaxy?! Like planets of billions, population of trillions being subjugated by several thousand space marines sounded like true grim derp
Ye numbers havent been gw thibg whennit comes to describing battles. For example a spire with a pop of 30 billion getting sieged by 1.5 million guard. Like the could for real even if 100million ran at them with no weapons they would win and beat the gaurd.
We actually do have some guestimates of the Wolves' prePrimaris sizes from Champions of Fenris and Warzone Fenris.
Grimnar's Great Company is supposedly the biggest at 250 Marines topping the Wolves at 3000 but most Great Companies are closer to 100 marines putting the Wolves closer to 2000 marines, the Priests of Wolf, Iron and Rune are all seperate as are the Dreads so bounce the Wolves up to around the 2200 mark.
Then we get the Hunt for the Wulfen which both bolsters and cuts the Wolves' numbers. Lets be fair and put the Wolves at 2500.
Next we get Warzone Fenris where the Wolves' numbers get cut in half to about 1250 marines plus they lose at least one Wolf Lord in Edgil Ironwolf.
The Fall of Cadia isn't kind to the Wolves either, they lose two Wolf Lords in Sven Bloodhowl and Edgil Ironwolf's successor Orven Highfell, plus Wolves on the losing side of a beating like that are going to be taking heavy losses so knock the mutts back to 1150.
Grimnar notes the empty halls of The Fang.
The Wolves get some relief in the form of Bulveye Greybeard and some 200 Marines bumping the Wolves up to 1350.
So then Primaris happen, highest bet we get 1000 and the WolfSpear get 1000 bumping the Wolfity total up to about 3350.
Black Templars actually have a rule stating while they are crusading they don’t have to follow that rule it was made when Dorn decided to follow the codex
I think it is on the part of Guilliman simple practicality of needing as many boots on the ground as possible and letting proven legions keep doing what works. I also low key think even if he is a primarch you go and tell Logan Grimnar he can't do something to his face.
I think the take away is that Guilliman may have written the codex but even he has said it was more of a recommendation than something that should be a holy book of hard rules.
Blood Angels after blood of Baal: We lost many, we only have 100 marines - Dante: we can rebuild.
Space Wolves during the Ashes of Prospero: The halls of the fang are empty, we only have 700 marines - Grimnar: We're doomed.
+hundreds of cyborg direwolves
I'm finally at time for the video
Wasn't there a caveat in the codex where if you were a crusading chapter you could have more than a thousand? Given how proactive the wolves were, maybe thats the game they were playing
That is the exat thing both the Space Wolves and Weponized Autism, er, Black Templars, are playing.
Bit late commenting, but the answer to why Guilliman allows them the far larger numbers and freedom is actually quite obvious from the HH novels "A Thousand Sons" and "Prospero Burns".
Whilst other legions were designed for certain doctrines/tactics/specialities reading how the Wolves operate in their official anti-space marine role showed a very interesting tactic.
1. Run really fast at the bad guys whilst howling or making "wet leopard growls"
2. Chop and shoot bad guys
3. Rinse and repeat
4. Back home to drink distilled airplane fuel and be all gloomy at the sheer loss of number.
Love the wolves but they didn't seem to be tactical geniuses.
Hi Rho, just wanted to add something: at the end of Devastation of Baal Guilliman recognises Dantes Leadership over the BA successors and makes it official. :)
Do we know how many primaris was given to the blood angels? They could have been given more than a normal chapter. I could see Guillemen making the first founding bigger than normal chapters to secure their fate
Thousands because they got new chapters made entirely from Primaris.
maybe Guilleman has realised that if he can come back, so can his brothers. Russ was one of big G's Dauntless few, the primarchs he felt he could win any fight with them at his side, maybe he is arming the Wolves for wars to come, when Russ returns and the Imperium needs them most.
Guilliman's a logical pragmatist - the changed circumstances (as differing from the state of the Imperium 10k years ago) require a different arrangement. That was then, this is now. The Codex was only ever intended as guidelines to get the new Chapters up and running. It's the vast passage of time that turned it into a sort of Holy Writ for some. I doubt he's very perturbed by those that, metaphorically speaking, mostly use the Codex to prop up a wobbly table in the refectory.
Rho you getting those JoyToy 1/18 scale Wolves? I have a team of Ultramarines and with how amazing they are I can’t wait to add the Wolves 🐺
It’s good tactics, the nature of how the space wolves have always operated has been to push things to the extreme. With that comes high attrition, give the Salamanders 10k troops and an impossible task and they’ll return with about half their numbers and data that confirms a certain status quo. Give the Wolves 10k troops and they’ll look for impossible tasks themselves and derp into discovering things, also there might be like a 100 of them left so yeah the economics of war
The Fang was built to hold a legion of many thousand marines. So claiming the Fang feels "empty" with only 700 marines seems about right
The wolves have an achilles heel that other chapters lack: they are dependent on Fenris to recruit. Other chapters can lose a homeworld and become fleet based or claim a new homeworld. The Wolfbrothers demonstrated what happens when you try to use the Canis Helix on another world. So if the Great Wolf decides to carve out his own empire, all the Imperium has to do is send a large Navy fleet to Fenris for some exterminatus and the chapter will slowly die out.
Bjorn should get a tech upgrade, his service history is reason enough.
Tons of space wolf players converted him into a redemptor chasis
Because you are entirely right
@@dirk903 A custodes contemptor-achillus Bjorn would be so awesome, but the space wolves would need to know "a brother Sargent who knows a guardsman who knows a tech priest who knows a blood raven" to get hold of one 😉
I think the codex was intended to be more of a set of guidelines then rules for a chapter. Russ was one of Guilluman's five, that he trusted most. Guilluman himself has shown disgust at the blind adherence to the codex as a rule rather then a guideline.
Guilluman's practical more likely is the codex also revolves are resources and other factors. The legions being broken down at the time was due to multiple factors its never as simple as one thing.
Gman knew they were going to follow the numbers, but also knows how the loyalty of the Wolves stands. Granted is no fool he knows the Wolves are one of the keys he will need. I would say post Primaris, the Wolves probly have between 500 and maybe even a defiant 1000 for each company, but they are always all over so it makes the number hard to confirm while helping the imperium. After 10k years it is likely understood to simply look the other way as long as there is some plausible deniability even if it is paper thin
He may not be doing the same for other chapters yet because he is not as sure of them. He may also have specific plans for the Wolves and Templars that require such a force. It may not be as much of a gift or leniency as it appears
The Wolves numbers were so low because they just kept fighting and never took the real time to build their numbers? How long after the Heresy did RG institute the Codex Astartes?
Because the space wolves and the templars actually get results and both Ligons have important roles in the imperium.
They could’ve been reduced in numbers easily. The thousands of primaris could have been sent to fenris, been taught the ways of the Russ before being divided into chapters.
Legion strength as I understand it is 100,000 plus so if these numbers are accurate then they are way below legion strength. I could be wrong, been away from 40k for awhile and starting to get back into it.
A legion is between 3000 and 6000.
I would like to think Rowboat Girlyman still likes the idea of individual chapters but can see the need for legion or two as well.
girlyman finds out about the new size of the Space Wolves and thinks should i break them back down? and what happens if the Russ comes back NOPE DON'T WANT TO FCE HIM IF HE IS RELLY PISSED :)
I'm relatively new to reading 40k lore. I've nearly finished reading Ashes of Prospero and I had the same sense that the Space Wolves numbers were stretched. It's good to know that The Wolf Time is set before AoP. Question; do I have to read the first two books in the series before reading The Wolf Time or can it be read as a stand alone book?
I definitely recommend reading the first two before reading the Wolftime, as you miss out on some of the Guilliman/Custodes plot lines in the Indomitus Era (which are important) if you don’t, but that isn’t to say that you can’t read The Wolftime as a stand alone novel if you really just like the Space Wolves
Guilliman is giving to each Chapter according to the needs of their mission.
I also get the feeling he might be trying to preemptively mollify Russ, should the Wolf King return
Russ is always angry. But you have to remember Russ was considered one of the Dauntless by Guilliman. I don't think Guilliman would be too worried should The Great Wolf return.
The Lion will wake before the Wolf...for he has... the beard
Is this a re run? Big E - Council of Nikaea no one should have Librarians its to much power. Heresy happens The Imperium - OMG where are the Librarians they will save us from the demons!
Bobby G - No one should have a Legion its to much power. Great Rift happens The Imperium - OMG where are the Legions they will save us from the demons! Like father like son!
Honestly I think it was a power play in a smartmove for him to do the space wolves loyal legions
Question when it comes to the breaking of the leagions was also the Salamanders have the option to ignor it as well but chose not to ?
so close to a new primarch week
Guilliman is a practical Primarc. It's been 10k years since he wrote those rules. To stick to them, now, in a very different time and situation would be illogical.
So have Primaris Space Wolf successor chapters been formed or are they all just being dumped into the main chapter?
I think Ash os Prospero is out or the danw of fire chronology. Was written before the dawn of fire series, I think is almost out of the canon.
In wolftime Guilliman gives more than 10.000 to Grimnar… and he has more to give later.