What is TF2's Most Nerfed Weapon?
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- Nobody's perfect... and Valve is certainly not nobody. There have been quite a few overpowered weapons in the history of the game, which is expected for a game this diverse. But the nerfs that accompany it also have a huge range of acceptability, and that's what I'm interested in today. There are about 30 weapons that could go here, but I've picked out a good few that I believe are the most nerfed in the history of TF2. For anyone wondering how I got background video of weapons in a state before their nerf, all of the gameplay was recorded on servers running a revert mod. It was super interesting to actually play around with some of the pre-nerf versions of weapons, and I have to say, I wish a lot of them would come back. Let me know what you think!
Pre-nerf servers in the video are Nailgun World and Crow's Nest. Go check them out!
Also thanks to TheWhat Show for helping with the Bison bits! / thewhatshow
TheWhat Show's Bison video: • The Tragedy of the Bis...
Lister's damage spread video: • Random Damage Spread -...
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telling valve about how bad the bison is at this point is the equivalent of yelling at a brick wall and hoping it will fall apart
Hey if it worked for the big bad wolf it will work for me. Eventually. Any day now
See? A crack? Oh wait, that's hair...
@@kewlman5417 (in heavys's voice) so we still got no update?
@phobia the earth bender who’s ready to go steal this valve from Gabe?
@@guniverse.5847 right behind you
(spy and phobia proceed to storm valve while outro plays)
The dead ringer used to be so common that you would instinctively keep spychecking after killing a spy just because there was a 75% chance they were running the DR
Actually it was 80%. Not even joking.
And today, those who refused to use any other watch have such a specific playstyle I can tell with 90% certainity that the spy is running a dr
@@kedarunzi9139 because why put in the effort of playing invis watch and knowing how to maneuver when u can just click on the right mouse button and survive (I am still pissed off by how many hours I spent on the stock watch)
@@Black-yi7tp or use cloak and dagger and sit in a corner for 5 minutes waiting to get a pick
i read ringer as something else and i was so baffled at first
Valve: Fixed a bug where the Bison would hit people multiple times
Actual in-game tip: As Soldier, the Bison can hit enemies multiple times. Use it to punish fleeing enemies!
Gaslighting by VALVe
Now I don’t know if I just keep playing on servers with custom plugins but the bison can still hit multiple times l
@@adriansgaminguniverse4951I believe they somewhat reverted the change. It’s still not as good as it was originally (even though it was still pretty bad).
@@Wiki1184 They said they did but the issue is that they fucking lied. The projectile stayed smaller & slower after the supposed revert so it's just drastically worse than it was at its peak, which was so low to begin with that seeing anyone whip it out was the signal to go in because you're always gonna win the 1v1 if you have the slightest bit of accuracy.
8:39 "Upon being added to the game, the [Sandman] ball would fully stun you and lock you in place regardless of the distance you were to the Scout."
If I remember right, the stun time _increased_ with distance. If a Scout Lucksmann'd you from across the map, you were basically a free kill for some random Sniper.
Yeah and at max range it was a 8 second full stun. idk if this name was official or a term coined by the community; but I believe it was called a moonshot.
@@BagelSammich I think that was the name of the achievement for stunning someone at max range. I wonder if you can even get that anymore...
Oh man I remember how I used to spam Sandman + Flying Guillotine on Sawmill and hoped that it hits somebody.
Good times.
If they got lucky after the first nerf it still did the full stun.
Was about to comment this. Always funny beaning a sniper and giving your team 8 full seconds of advance and counter-sniping, essentially guaranteeing a kill, using a ball which regens pretty fast and is shot by the most snappy hard to hit class in the game. Or predicting a push and donking the uber heavy right as he pushes just leaving him stood there like a dumb shiny statue while the medic cries himself to sleep knowing he spent ages building that and you ruined it with a single right click.
I love how the soda popper's hype function essentially got inverted. It used to mean gaining increased damage through the scout's mobility, now it's gaining increased mobility through dealing damage.
Yeah, they got clever doing that one
Dr Jack Bright is not allowed to create social media account
It used to made Scout a bigger douge, now it makes scout a bigger chicken that gets away faster
@@wilsonweiseng6485
*douche
It essentially turned it into a cousin of the blaster.. Whereas the popper is good in the air the blaster is on the ground
Oh god, remember the Tomislav when it got added? It had a 75% reduction in spinup speed. It basically was an assault rifle.
Natascha was also amazing when it was released. Something like 10% damage reduction for the same refire and spinup and the speed debuff on top
@@selrockredguy9487It also had 300 ammo.
@@jonathangrafton4016that was much later
I remember the bison... From what i remember, the original nerf MIGHT have been in response to a bug that allowed the bison's projectile to get caught on things like spawn doors and scout's baseball, making permanent penetrating projectiles that just kinda float there...
then they should have fixed those bugs instead of butchering the weapon.
Does anyone remember the Saharan Spy set with the old dead ringer that ALSO made it completely silent, which was quite literally half of it's downsides? Glad they removed set bonuses
Don’t forget the set that allowed snipers to tank headshots. That was the first time I ever got rewarded for being worse in a video game by forcing bodyshots
I almost forgot about that. It was amazing on Valve servers, though this was also a time when you could decloak right behind players that were less aware of their surroundings compared to today.
The Saharan Spy made the dead ringer have the default watch's uncloak sound, so it wasn't completely silent. It did completely remove the uncloak sound for every other watch, though.
@@AmssoBadorSpacelot Everyone forgets that the Dead Ringer ALSO nulified the extra half second of "blink" time that would make you visible while cloaked for almost a full second if you bump someone instead of just momentarily when you bump them. The set was actually hard to use but really rewarding if you weren't using the DR with it. The DR was so good with the set that Valve nerfed the set into the ground, and then eventually nerfed the DR into the ground, too, and then "rebalanced" (ruined) the YER by making it consume more cloak than the stock knife and giving you the ability to disguise in exchange for cloak, almost forcing you to use the L'etranger with it just to have a stock amount of cloak time.
@@Scatmanseth Didn't even need a set. Darwin's Danger Shield was all that you needed
you forgot how the first version of dead ringer could literally protect you from backstabs. yes. Backstabs.
Flat 90% damage resistance for the initial hit AND entire cloak duration. Fun times
wait could a deadringer ever even kill another deadringer at that point
@@link_team3855 The only way to kill the pre nerf dead ringer spy was to one shot him while he is unaware of your existance. Otherwise, he would just use dead ringer, then take an ammo box and get back into the fight with dead ringer being fully recharged. No wonder it got nerfed so much. Trice, if i recall
Spies used to market garden when they coordinated with a friend back when you could choose what team to play on. Good times.
@@remuvs Oh yeah, your buddy on the other team would drop a sticky so you could run across it, and he'd blast you up so you could snipe everyone or just get a market stab. Used to be so much batter back when the Sticky Jumper let you but down a full 8 bombs so you could basically fly from one one team''s spawn to the other side with one jump
The Reserve Shooter used to be even more powerful! Thanks to some Source Spaghetti, TF2 counts *walking on stairs* as being midair. So yes, you could literally get minicrits against enemies walking forward so long as they were walking forward on a staircase.
I think that if you jump into water it also counts as being mid air
There were also some weird physics behind being airblasted when being on the ramp of any sort if airblasted pushes you harder into said ramp.
@@burningsinner1132 Ohh so that's why I go nyoom everytime
@@burningsinner1132 I think that's because of a property of player physics where you sort of 'attach' to walkable surfaces, source was made of the hacking and sewing together of two physics hitboxes, iirc its the quake hitbox that handles walkable surfaces
oh yeah, I remember loving tricking people into using stairs back in the day
For the day it released, the Direct Hit did crits against airborne targets. For people who could adjust their aim in time they had one amazing day of fun.
3:53 that sniper's POV must've been absolutely terrifying
That's a kill_bind moment for me.
the degreaser also had it's one and only upside "nerfed" by the universal switch speed being increased
Ahh the ole puff n slash with the axetinguisher.
I still don't get why more game companies don't do gradual nerfbuffs over time rather than huge nerfbuffs in a single update.
My guess is that it's easier to generate even bigger waves of hype that way. Plus they won't pester the playerbase with frequent downloads if the game doesn't support background downloading.
It's mostly because you want to make big changes so that it actually feels like something has changed; if the impact is too small or too drawn out then it's as if you didn't make one
With tf2 it would be fine if ti updated like even twice a yeat with bug and balance patches
In Niccolo Machiavelli's "The Prince", it is advised that if you are going to make several decisions that will make people upset, you should make them all at once to give people time to get over them, rather than stringing them out and upsetting people over and over again.
That's basically how Splatoon handled balance changes.
The Baby Faces Blaster is the saddest one for me. It went from incredibly fun but a bit OP to completely useless joke weapon so quickly.
Just like you go from the fastest thing alive to slow all because of 5 damage
I wouldn't go as far as to say a JOKE weapon, but it's definitely not a great weapon
lol it was literally the best weapon in the game on the best class in the game
your opinions are informed by being bad at the game so your balance ideas are bad
@@Aefax "scout is the best class" well who's badly informed now??
@@frenchguitarguy1091 ...you. scout is by far the best, most useful, highest DM class in the game, that's why i play scout.
7:38 the "fun" thing about the Baby Face's Blaster was that it didn't start out good! I was around before its big buff in 2013, and its stats were... well, they were _something_ alright. The BFB back then was more like this:
+Had 6 shots per clip -(valve please make a scattergun other than stock have 6 shots i am bEGGING YOU)-
+40% more accurate
-30% less damage dealt
-*35%* slower movement speed (as opposed to the -10% speed today)
-*100%* boost lost on *any* jump. Yes, even your first one.
This basically made you trade your air mobility for extremely good ground mobility. Still better than the current BFB, honestly. All it takes is a few pistol shots from across the map and you're brought down to 0 boost. Like seriously, why is the drain boost so god awful?
I feel like the BFB could use the old Soda Popper mechanic, where you build up boost by running around. That way you can justify the boost loss from chip shots because you can build up the boost much faster.
I remember playing when that first came out. So funny watching all the scouts with muscle memory go from zippy ninjas to sitting ducks because you LOOKED at them as a pyro and they smashed spacebar instinctively, destroying their speed.
Am I the only one who absolutely loved the original BFB? Every change they made to it felt worse and worse, until it was practically unusable
ah yeah, thats why it worked well in conjunction with the pocket pistol which would negate all fall damage in the case that you were forced to lose your footing
i miss the OG one a bit
For what it does now, the Reserve Shooter might as well be usable on Heavy and Engineer. Hell it'd give them something extra for dealing with bombing Demos and Soldiers
heavy as a minigun and engineer has a mini-sentry/sentry they don't need more anti-bomb options
the only way, in my opinion, to turn the reserve shooter into a fun weapon to use again is to turn it into an anti-air cannon (i.e. crits against rocket jumping enemies - or even better, crits against rocket jumping enemies while your mid-air for those sick frag compilations xd)
bad take use Reddit less
Nooo, they are already extremely powerful to dive playstyles. Just imagine a mini with the reserve Shooter!
@@Mitioritos yes
I was genuinely wondering why the Loch and loads +20% damage was said to oneshot light classes for a long time. never knew it was also paired with the RDS.
Well, it does not One-shot without damage spread, but if you took any kind of chip damage while you got to the front lines, it would one-shot you with 120 damage.
@@deebafo947
Yeah but taking damage and then getting one-shot is fair, that's on you for engaging in a fight knowing that might happen.
@@disappointedoptimist255 yes but the chip damage limit was so low that if there was anyone with a shotgun they could guarantee your death at any range so long as the demoman can land a single pipe.
Direct Hit does the same thing but no one complains about that one for some reason. We can have the old Loch back if you ask me.
@@RogerDuckman Pipes don't have damage falloff like rockets do.
The removal of most of the item set bonuses also killed the DR pretty hard by proxy. Back when the only downside it had was its decloak sound being slightly quieter than a space shuttle launch, adding the Familiar Fez, L'etranger and Your Eternal Reward to your loadout made it basically as silent as stock decloak, it was even more of a bullshit weapon. I do miss item set bonuses, even if they made them only cosmetic, they don't add them anymore.
If they would've added more set bonuses to suggest intended playstyles and very niche options, maybe even a more complex set setup ....
Like sort of consider it a full set if all (or at least enough) slots fit into a specific theme. Let's say at least 4 slots need to fit the theme of which maximum 2 can be cosmetic.
Gives them a bit more flexibility which slots you use, but require at least some commitment.
Sort of like how a flush in poker needs all 5 cards of the same suit, but you can have any 5 of that suit. Or how a full house needs a triplet and a pair, but you can choose which cards the triplet and the pair are.
Imagine a demoknight "Highlands Pirate" set or a Soldier "Quake" set or a Scout "Jumping Flea" set or a Pyro "Oily" set. You can probably imagine what kind of items would fit these sets.
They're still in the game, but they're only cosmetic (like special gravestones when you kill)
Here's an interesting thought experiment: What would the metagame look like if all the weapons were put into whatever their most powerful state in their history was and left there?
The concept of sweats would exist
Spy would be using Ambassador and Spycicle, with many bots being Spy instead of Sniper to take advantage of the disguise, fire resistance, and ability to effectively be an invisible disguised sniper.
It would be like now, except the bots are invisible 90% of the time.
Pre-2008, stickybombs had no ramp-up, 40 reserve ammo instead of 24, and did max damage instantly on detonation. Demoman would literally ruin the game with sheer sticky spam. You couldn't turn a corner or go over a hill without eating 400+ damage in a single second and turning into a cloud of red mist.
I believe this should be implemented into TF2 to some extent. TF2 is one of Valve's heritage games and should be treated as such. The game needs to be preserved, not rebalanced for the small portion of the community that plays the game competitively.
@@DronethonyStriketano this is the worst idea I've read in a long time
14:18 the ambassador was nerfed more than once. The headshot cooldown was added after the weapon came out.
But it was also buffed, before that nerf since when it was released, it could only do minicrits on headshots.
It could also overpenetrate like the Machina when it was released.
The no-cooldown Amby was insane, lmao.
One weapon i feel you probably shouldve mentioned is the eviction notice.
Was an already pretty niche meme weapon but ever since it got nerfed where it drains your hp down to 100 among other changes. i genuinely have never seen a single heavy ever equip it since.
nor the GRU outside of mvm for that matter, it's always just "the fists of steel" (or some stock reskin or strange stock)
Thats because its just a worse GRU in every single way. worse dps worse speed same health drain. Why use it over the GRU?
@@Fatsaver before the nerf the weapon was usually used with the buffalo steak as a meme loadout but ever since the nerf gave it the same downsides of the GRU theres no reason to use it even as a meme pick. Hence why it shouldve been in the video
@@NotSnak Dalokohs actually removes both the GRU and EN health drain somehow.
@@Fatsaver It's slower health drain isn't even a true advantage either, since you recover health at the same rate you lost it. Once the GRU Heavy hits 100 health, he'll even get full health FASTER than the Eviction Notice. The only + it has is actually a -.
EDIT: I didn't like the way I explained this, so I'll do this. Since both weapons recover health at the same rate they lost health, whichever one spends less time draining health will recover full health faster. Since the GRU has a better speed boost, that means it will spend less time draining health. If the GRU drains health for 10 seconds and the EN drains health for 15 seconds, the GRU will recover full health 5 seconds faster than the EN does. The Eviction Notice sucks.
I’m still traumatized by what they did to the sandman. It didn’t deserve to be mercilessly slaughtered like that. And then they nerfed Crit a cola. A lot has happened to tf2 but I could never shake this.
The Crit-a-Cola was incredibly busted for years before Valve finally nerfed it. And honestly it's still a fine weapon.
I used to run Degreaser, Liberty shooter and the axtinguisher... Those pyro nerfs killed me inside.
@@TheSense13 I used to be a pyro main like years ago, when I was young and understood like no deep mechanics of the game, I think I was using the extinguisher when I came back to it a few years later and wondering why it felt like I could barely play the game any more. I remember forgetting about it and not coming back after that point.
Scunt
@@TheSense13 lol reserve shooter player crying about nerfs
How about the Sharpened Volcano Fragment, which for ONE DAY when it was released, lit enemies on fire permanently unless they healed themselves until it was patched the next day. It actually made it a somewhat useful and not OP weapon, which of course Valve couldn't allow.
Sharpened Volcano Fragment is still the undisputed king of "Worst weapon with the best model"
@@Palgrave Unless you like degroot keep
@Nuclear Energy is Good for Climate it still the second worst melee in medieval mode
@@ukyoize everyone drops health packs so backscratcher is still better
@@Palgrave I think the Sun on a Stick has a cooler model.
I feel like enforcer should have stats like:
-0.5/1 second disguise time
-Breaking disguise by shooting automatically begins disguising process.
-Shooting during putting disguise on doesn't cancel it
So basically you get your powerful shots more often, and you don't have to keep spamming disguise button in firefight.
Maybe that'd be too op, but that's just an idea
what if the enforcer had its current stats, but didn't break disguise if the shot killed? you could essentially delete someone while in disguise if your aim was true and their health low.
alternatively, make it mark the target for death when disguised for 1 second (this is exactly as long as the Enforcer takes to reset it's bullet spread), as well as each time it deals critical damage, and give it the additional penalties of disguises being twice as slow to put on, and slower cloak time by about 1.5 seconds. If you miss even a single shot, you are stuck with the worst revolver in the game and basically zero ways to escape, and you are also screwed if you attempt to shoot two people at the same time. If you don't, you get DPS even BETTER than it's original incarnation.
my Idea: when disguised, shots deal extra damage, as well as the next two shots taken afterwards when fired consecutively. Meaning that if you shot the gun and broke your disguise, your next two shots would hold the damage bonus.
@@percher4824 or just keep spy's focus on backstabs, not gun fights. Revolver is already stupidly powerful if you hit the shots. Max ramp-up dps of 120 is nothing to sneeze at and neither is 80 base dps
@@percher4824 that's a really neat idea. I think it needs a little more like increasing the damage bonus to 25% to make it consistent or possibly make the gun quiter.
What’s about Heavy’s nerf? Where all of his Mini-Guns were implemented with a ramp up mechanic thus nerfing the class as a whole. It was completely out of the blue from Valve, and there were virtually no complaints about Heavy’s DPS, yet they did it, and only the Heavy Mains noticed, while no one else knew. Also Tomislav, and Natasha nerf/changes are pretty interesting, along with the early iterations of the GRUs and all of Heavy’s other items.
*only the heavy mains noticed*
Well there you go then
"only the heavy mains noticed"
so.. absolutely no one?
Imagine nerfing the class that is basically your game's mascot, and then not giving that class his own update because he lost a popularity contest in the middle of a botched update?
He didn't play heavy so he doesn't have any emotional rent to make about his nerfs
i dont see anywhere on the wiki where it says the miniguns were _nerfed._ not even in undocumented changes. they just added the ramp-up mechanic and left the damage and accuracy unchanged, so if this is the case the ramp-up mechanic that increases damage and accuracy over time is actually an objective buff. and from there, they even made the ramp-up time work on spinning up the minigun, which means you dont need to waste time in combat or shooting your minigun ahead of time to get the full increase in damage.
I'm thinking Valve overnerfed stuff towards the end of TF2 lifecycle just to be safe. But I wish they would've done a round of corrective buffs after some time.
We can only hope 🫤
The funniest thing about the OG dead ringer was the manual decloak. Due to how fast it recharged, and how it allowed you to survive backstabs, well, you could spam manual decloak, and instantly regain your cloak.
So Spy became unkillable to anything but environmental damage.
The thing is that on a successful airblast from Pyro, you were just done. It felt horrible to be caught in a Reserve Shooter combo, especially since the amount of skill it takes is questionable. A weapon that deals a fuckload of danage on knockback on a class with incredibly easy knockback was always going to be hated.
Not to mention that before Jungle Inferno it legit just locked the victim in place while being airblasted making it the worst to fight against.
Absolutely, some weapons just should not be strong by virue of them already being not fun to play against
But now it's a weapon that expects soldiers and demos to suicide by shooting explosives at the Pyro. And no, being able to catch soldiers that are rocket jumping away is not worth since rbs and bloom exist
So it's not an issue of the combo being overpowered, but too easy to pull off?
With airblast as it is now though?
The most nerfed is 100% the Sandman, if that thing was still full power I don't think it would even be possible for the team on offense to win
Also it's really goddamn funny that Sniper is allowed to do what the Axtinguisher was nerfed for
I have a distinct memory of the time near when I started to get good at tf2 (around march 2016) of me throwing the sandman's ball at a heavy on badwater third point, and in the middle of it hitting a fully cloaked spy between me and the heavy. The spy was forced to uncloak and undisguise, fully stunned, while I killed him for literally just being in the way. He had just enough time to start raging in chat before he died. I realised then that this weapon was overpowered, and didn't use it ever again until jungle inferno came out.
Yeah but snipers are squishy and slow and can't airblast plus they only get one chance every 20 seconds to apply the debuff that grants them crit-melee ability unless they're god-tier with the Sleeper but at that point they're better off just using a headshotting rifle. Axtinguisher still deserved better though.
idk I feel like the Sandman Nerf was unnecessary because you can airblast the ball and all the current one does is that you can now shoot when you get hit by it but like the old one was so nice to combo into the flying guillotine which is pretty useless now unless you are going for bleed with the wrap assassin and guillotine. Plus it wasn't even that easy to fully stun an enemy cause if the enemy knew how to move in any direction that wasn't forwards they would be fine.
Back to the good old days when the Sandman didn't let you double jump at all? That's a weird thing to reminisce about.
@@Argonwolfproject Sniper is the designated long range delete class. Giving them a melee range delete too is pretty bullshit.
Honorable mention should go to all the cosmetic set bonuses that were outright removed. most notably being the fez and whatnot that made your dead ringer decloak sound COMPLETELY SILENT in addition to its immensely broken state on its own at the time. The piss sniper set being immune to headshots was hilarious though and I want it back.
The complete lack of manual disguise on Your Eternal Reward sorta balances it out. Those were more on the p2w side since hats weren't so easily available back then.
Honestly i think Heavy's melee slot as a whole has received so many nerfs, some more understandable than others, that it makes the default fists stand out as an unusually attractive option for him
Stock should be technically the best in most situations.
@@Sammysapphira Well, that’s not the case with literally any other class, and in this case, rather than make stock good, they just made every other fist, save for the fists of steel, utter dog water.
@@Brother_Piner KGB and GRU aren't bad.
Holyday Punch is the only left good melee for Heavy (if we will forget about the stock). Imagine: Ability to stunlock your enemies on one place is good, and while your yargen laugh, you can use your taunt or shoot it with minigun.
- Kgb gives crits for a kill with it
- gru is very well balanced since it helps you get to the fronline more easily and if you use it correclty you can still be at 300 when arriving
- fists of steel raise survivability by a lot, considering sniper is heavy's big counter
- holiday punch can deny ubers when used correctly
Only the warriors' spirit (kinda) and especially the eviction notice feel underwhelming/bad, the others have their great uses.
Before the dead ringer was nerfed, it was the only watch I used. When I heard it was being nerfed, I started using the invis watch and basically relearned the whole class. It made me a better Spy, one who doesn't rely on what was essentially a crutch in the hands of a bad player...
The best part is that the current dead ringer isn't even that bad. I've gone back to using it more than stock nowadays, actually...
I love how all of spy's watches are unique and good.
The competitive viability of the dead ringer's questionable, but for casual? No one's really complaining about any particular invis watch.
@@stealthbeastgaming Exactly. I do see some people calling the cloak and dagger "bad" because new players don't know how to use it, though, but it's a really good watch
@@stealthbeastgaming ive seen some people still complaining about the dr, mostly when its used by kunai spies
@@stealthbeastgaming spy is in general non viable in competitive anyways
@@literallyvergil1686 True, but at least they serve the incredibly useful role of reconnaissance in Highlander. The dead ringer doesn't really let you do that.
2:59
And while you're at it watch his 1 hour rant about the Pomson 6000
14:24 Huh, so that's why in Winglet's Bolted Behemoth fedora spy shot through heavy and medic combo
I like how you mentioned the original Reserver Shooter minicritting any airborne target, then have pyro gameplay. Reserve shooter was not a pyro weapon back then, at least not until the Manniversary update, and around that time you had to explode someone into the air first, which was almost impossible to anticipate effectively. But since you could not just airblast and shoot... eh I still didn't like it, my minicrits would generally still do around 60 damage, i already did more than that with a stock shotty.
fun fact each time these weapons get nerfed this effects the price value of the weapon on the steam market. For example the Ambassador lost half its value when its headshot was nerfed and its crits had falloff and never recovered. Making Aussie Ambassadors extremely useless to buy unless you like wasting 20-40 bucks.
Oh I can tell this one's going to be good. Let's see which weapon Valve hates the most!
Most likley bison or librty lunchr
And the caber
The Dead Ringer was even more broken than you explained here since up til 2013 you could use the Saharan Spy item set to reduce the decloak sound allowing you to run into an enemy and then decloak fairly close without being noticed.
I remember going on tears with the old Equalizer. Was a lot of fun being the ultimate glass cannon running around at single digit HP but getting random crits and just picking through enemy after enemy as if I were a spy getting chain stabs.
As I've said on thewhat's video about the bison, the only thing I could remember and even consider as an explanation as to why the Bison was nerfed in MyM (and this was a while ago) was because comp players realized that by spamming bison with the kritzkrieg you can get stupid amounts of damage from it on anyone down a chokepoint.
This would explain why they originally "patched" the bison's ability to pierce targets, as well as making it do far less damage every time it pierced someone. Which then makes the projectile speed nerf make more sense as it would not only make you unable to spam out long hallways easily, but also punish people who were retreating.
This whole thing is just a downhill ride of one thing explaining another of a nerf that wasn't necessary due to how limiting the bison already was. It makes me sad that no weapon is safe from the valve treatment of nerfing weapons into oblivion, not even designated bad ones, and even not even for simple bug or exploit patches.
I always thought it was related to Muselk going on a godlike with it.
Legendary moment.
@@RegalRoyalWasTaken Lol a UA-camr gets a godlike with it, so obviously it needed to be nerfed.
@@Subject_GR33N LIKE THE TIMING LINES UP THOUGH
Bison was never used in comp as a stickylauncher gets the same job done, only better and without taking away soldier's far more useful shotgun
@@Belodri Don't take my word for it, hell I didn't believe it one bit when I first heard of it for that very reason either, but it's better than nothing.
*3:58** shows a clip of Pyro instantly killing a demo before he even had time to react*
"The old axetinguisher was balanced"
The Demo knight walked right into him
Well every weapon is unbalanced against those who don't know how to play the game
Dont walk right into enemies I guess?
@@pablo_giustiniani nah ill just use the current version instead
@@milliondollarmistake not to rain on your parade demo can do that even better than pyro could with that combo. ehem stickies. sniper headshots you didnt even know wow! now of course this shit isnt OP and neither was axtinguisher if you really had a brain to think about it but you know its hard to tell. its the same with the amby wasnt that broken when put into view of the diamondback.
pyro: * is a class considered weaker than the other classes*
valve: nerf
uhh no they arent??
@@FuzzyQue. i said considered, as i have been told by many that pyro is the weakest class
@@PaveltheBugFan Those are newbies, that don't know how to play. xD
The Eviction Notice was my first weapon drop and I loved it. Then Jungle Inferno happened and I'm still salty about the max health drain.
4:53 I was gonna say that it's probably for the better that you can't deal ~100 damage + full afterburn in a fraction of a second anymore, but then I remembered that sniper exists.
FeelsOldMan as i started playing on release (with breaks here and there) and then stopped shortly after MvM got released, so majority of new age nerfs were a big surprise to me.
I quit for the final time just before Meet Your Match and good God was it the right decision. 2000 of my life hours was enough anyway
2:43 I just looked up the update history of the bison, and according to the official TF2 wiki, prior to meet your match the projectile dealt a max of 20 damage per tic, causing point-blank damage to range from 20-80 depending on how many times it hit the target.
Jungle Inferno technically increased the minimum damage by changing it to use normal damage ramp-up instead of flamethrower fall-off, but for some odd reason they set max ramp-up to 120% instead of the usual 150%, so it deals 24-72 point blank when it should be dealing 30-90.
I should also mention that the original Bison dealt 75% base damage at max falloff, while the current one deals slightly above 50% damage, making the current Bison less effective at long range. On the other hand, the old Bison used the flamethrower's distance modifier, which had a measily fall-off distance of 360hu. The current Bison uses the same 1024hu max fall-off distance most weapons use. This means that the current Bison has a much longer effective range than the old Bison.
The only thing that could potentially make the current Bison deal less damage than its first iteration is the reduced hitbox size from Meet Your Match, but since we don't know the dimensions of the pre-MYM Bison hitbox, we can't say for certain whether this change reduced the length of the hitbox rather than only affecting its height and width. Considering the reason they adjusted the hitbox was to prevent cases where a player is hit by a Bison beam despite the visual particle effect not making contact with them, it's likely they only changed the height and width, meaning it would still be in contact with a players hitbox for about the same time.
You've quickly become one of my favorite TF2 UA-camrs, lots of great information sprinkled with perfect humor haha. Still remember a lot of these nerfs, really grinds my gears lol
There should be a game mode where all weapons are at their most op point, like all range amby and stunning sandman
there is actually a communty server which uses old weapon stats before nerfs
that sounds horrible and i love it
@Pijazo Galáctico that's the point
+75% spinup speed tomislav
@@adelite server address/name?
Spy isn't meant to be a knockoff sniper, if you want to kill people from far away, play sniper.
but sniper can kill you from up close as well with jarate and bushwhacka or sometimes with the stock kuki alone because of how crits are calculated
@@PancakemonsterFO4 Which is an issue with the base game and not exclusive to Sniper, Soldier who uses rockets can't at close range without self damage... but they can crit melee you nullifying that disadvantage.
The combo you listed isn't mostly pointless when a Sniper can quickscope for 150 damage and is an issue that needs to be fixed. It is why bots use sniper and why I enjoy using sniper against players because they think it is "fair"
@@Buglin_Burger7878 soldier also has the shotgun since he is too slow in most cases to close the distance to you unless its a rocket jump god soldier or he filled up horn rage. In both cases it requires far more efford then tossing a “grenade“ and hitting you with a melee weapon immediately after
I still miss the sandman cleaver combo, idk why they removed the damage buff. Even with the sandman not completly stunning it wouldve been fun
Probably because scout is already arguably the strongest class in the game in a lot of situations so him having the ability to snipe you with a highly spammable projectile is too strong.
@@carbon8ed highly spammable??? what the 10 seconds is long for a scout especially since its a slow moving arching projectile that is very obvious with no splash. Besides if you really wanted to nerf the sandman cleaver combo JUST TAKE AWAAY THE CLEAVER CRIT or you know make it deal mini crit on hit on stunned. at least keep the stun the literal ONLY reason to use the weapon is gone.
There is also the fact you are giving up a pistol and 15 hp for a very inconsistent combo.
@@horus2955 If the only reason to use a weapon is abhorrently broken and overpowered, maybe it does not belong in the game. The stun mechanic was as much, if not more of a problem than the cleaver combo. Scout does not need or deserve the ability to snipe you with ANYTHING, let alone something as easy to fire and forget as the sandman/cleaver combo. It never should have been in the game. The sandman ball is not a "slow moving" projectile, up until the Dragon's fury was added it was the fastest projectile in the game.
@@carbon8ed it wasn’t that broken
@@horus2955 The strongest 1v1 class in the game being able to strip you of your ability to fight back at all is very broken.
5:06 man just airblasted that teleporter so hard it fell into the backrooms
Persian Persuader used to be awesome. I don't see anyone using it now...
unpopular opinion I know, but it's actually my favorite sword. You instantly recharge shield on kill with ANY shield, which leads to clutch escapes and massive chain kill rampages.
I'll have to give it a fresh try. Still, gaining health from ammo packs was pretty frickin sweet!
Not in my games everyone uses that sword here.
Imagine the way back machine but with TF2 maps, features and weapons
Tf2 classic before it got shutdown
@@literallyvergil1686 It's not shut down, the servers are still up.
I feel like a lot of the TF2 teams nerf decisions took the fun out of a lot of weapons, and I hope they revisit some of them eventually
i'm glad you mentioned the thing about the loch n load being capped at 124 damage before gun mettle, i'm stunned more people don't realize just how pointless the damage nerf was. also, the dead ringer's damage resistance was originally 90%, not 80%.
p.s. what server were you playing on that un-nerfed all the weapons?
Stock. grenade. launcher.
Edit: I'm not saying its a bad weapon now, since its definitely still one of the best weapons in the game, but there's a reason ps3/Xbox demoman is the most powerful class on that verison of the game.
What?
@@skeptic_lemon It had 6 pipes on beta
Stickies and sticky launcher
@@puddin555 more then just that! Basically every stat on the weapon was nerfed: damage, reload, firing speed amno reserve, etc.
@@puddin555 that's really good though
uhh, anyone else see the pony at 11:50?
Yeah, what a qt pie!
I do recall the old Dead Ringers even making envirokills survivable, such as getting hit by a train if it just **barely** clips you.
The loch n load was fine when it didn't have the projectile speed bonus. It rewarded your ability to hit directs with extra damage (and back then the damage bonus was actually 25%, so it was intended to one shot light classes).
It never was 25% it was always 20% and it was the RDV than made it able to one shot 125 health classes
It wasn't fine. Scout is supposed to be Demo's soft counter and the gun pretty much became an anti-Scout tool due to the increase in projectile speed and ability to one shot , same reason the Caber was nerfed. The damage was never the real issue with the LL though, it was the speed. They probably should have removed the speed and kept the damage.
@@shadow50011 Did you not read. I said "without the projectile speed increase". It was just as hard to hit with as the normal grenade launcher.
I recognize one of the servers in the video from the player names here and its not listed in the description :)
what server? cause i wanna try the reverted weapons
it’s in the description now!
@@urimaginaryfriend Its not but for good purpose.
@@Saoshinkid Oh okay, sorry :P
lol
I think something that would be pretty cool to talk about is how sidegrades need to be more par with stock? At least for scout. If you look at scout for example, it’s mainly stock that’s everyone is into because all the other aren’t up to par with it. Bfb was on par then nerfed, soda popper is closest to maybe one par, FaN is a backwards weapon, shortstop had its mechanics changed for some reason?? And backscatter is just an even more of a downgrade. None the less I really liked this video, cause I actually wondered about weapons nerfs the other day, keep up the good work!!
Soda popper is arguably better than stock, anything else is bad tho
Buff ideas
Force a Nature:
+Critical hit on airborne enemies, or atleast ones sent flying by the knockback.
Baby Face Blaster:
+Boost is not lost on getting shot
-Boost is drained on turning back and bumping into objects, and lost immediately on jumping.
Backscatter:
The gun has a double drum magazine, so I would change the concept of its stats completely, I would make it based around teamwiping. The model would be changed a bit, no lever and instead the gun is a semi auto, and in the reload animation a new drum is loaded and it's a slow process.
+Fire rate increases as you keep shooting
+16 bullets in the magazine
+Reloads all rounds at once
*Only one extra magazine you carry with you
-20% accuracy
Returns to default accuracy as you keep shooting
-Movement speed decreases as you keep shooting
-Lethargic Reload speed
Keep shooting means hold the fire button instead of tapping it
FaN is like a side grade if youre a shitposter lol
The FaN might not be as good as stock but is very fun to use, you always get funny ragdolls and that makes it worth it. My favorite scattergun
Yo stfu you can never separate me from my force a nature, do you realize how good the mobility is?
I just find it ironic about how it not only does the soda popper do the FaN's burst damage and probably mobility job better, but also the flanking and picking of the back scatter as well. This is a weapon that's canonically a shittier, broken down version of a weapon put back together by hand with less than quality approved material, yet does it's job better than two of scout's primaries, and even competes with stock as best primary. Even after it's rework, it's a beast of a weapon to this day.
the darwin's danger shield is my most nerfed. after item set bonuses got removed and valve gave DDS bullet resistance it became the most powerful sniper unlock by far. if an enemy sniper was running DDS you basically had to as well. it was one of those unlocks where you actively felt guilty for using it
rip DDS you wont be missed
tbh valve constantly nerfing the bison is kinda funny lmao
What server are you playing where it’s pre nerf weapons?
Nailgun World
um… excuse me… BUT HOW THE HELL DO YOU HAVE 3 STICKIES OUT WITH THE STICKY JUMPER 0:15
Was the puff and sting really a skill reliant combo? Seemed pretty free.
It's either going to be Ambassador, Righteous Bison or Sandman
TheWhatShow in a Great Blue video?
It’s A TF2 Miracle! (Both of you are some of my FAVORITE UA-camrs)
The absolute funniest combo that Valve had created by accident was during one of the Smissmas updates when the Spycicle was released. The Dr.Enforcicle builds very a sight to behold, as you had near unkillable spies running around, instakilling all light classes whenever a Kritzkrieg medic decided to do a little trolling. The nerfs following soon after surprised no one.
2:09 no truer words have ever been spoken than now
Nice video, you are really good at this!
I disagree with the points you make against the ambassador nerf, a big difference that exists between it and say, a sniper rifle, is that the spy could be anywhere on the map due to his ability to move around unoticed, while the sniper will most often be only at predictable sightlines. A current use for the ambassador is that it helps a lot when dealing with players that you couldn't backstab, giving spy a pretty solid chance at fighting them head on. Also, the diamondback is just too strong, even when compared to the old ambassador, shit doesnt even require much to kill from across the map
Agreed. And the ambassador is still a very good revolver regardless the nerf (if you aim st the head)
Sniper has a minimum of 150 damage and a maximum of 450 damage (with the stock rifle) and spy had a max of 102. Even if it was overpowered by comparison to the other revolvers, I can't help but feel like it just gave Spy a more average primary while his other revolvers are below average with the exception of the diamond back.
@@tylazermk8271 I'd agree with you if it weren't for the fact that spy can see his opponents health bar, allowing him to pick fights that would only require 1 hs to win
@@tylazermk8271 If you think the revolver is below average you haven’t played spy much.
The only thing the ambassador beats the regular revolver at right now is fighting heavies up close, which is something you shouldn't even be doing as spy unless you're backstabbing them. In any other case it is way more consistent to just hit a couple body shots with the regular revolver. I think it should have been left with its long range niche or been given some other purpose, but as it stands its pretty much a worse revolver.
buff idea for the pomson and righteous bison: at a certain range they are hitscan but past that range they produce a slower projectile that tracks enemies
9:48
you could see that pyro's soul leave his body.
I like it dude and you covering it from weapons that used to be until the needs or buffs valve made.
And also I was in the video as bonkdrinker69
I started playing on 2015 in the Though Break update, i never knew the balances for the weapons were really bad, because personally i never paid too much attention, i just saw the boston causes bleed damage but i never knew that if you miss a hit you are the one getting bleed damage (that also scared me btw) i was just having fun in that update
That frickin' blue spy nailed to the wall. 13:24
Someone else probably already pointed it out, but the Ambassador also had a major amount random spread added to every single shot, making it all but luck to land a headshot at anything but close range
Wasn't that a charge that was prompted by the dev team and received backlash and was changed to the headshot dmg* falloff?
*spelling
yeah, in june they released the planned balance changes for jungle inferno in which most of them ended up going through, but in that blog post the ambassador was originally going to have 50% less accurate first shots in attempt to reduce the "getting sniped by a spy with a revolver" thing, but most disagreed with the change and the current nerf was added instead to keep the weapons skill ceiling and have the nerf at the same time
That change never made it into the game. It was a proposed changed which received so much community backlash that it was never implemented.
6:08 The Christmas update made the loch-n-load max out at 124 damage, which meant fall damage would finish the job.
9:24 Honestly, the nerfs were necessary. Before the nerf, it not only removed your ability to move, but also your ability to SHOOT too. It was the inability to shoot in a first person shooter that was the gamebreaking issue, not the movement impairing part.
11:21 ...did I just see a wall jump there?
what server did you play on for the old weapons?
Nailgun World
What you covered on the video is great, but I would argue the Warrior's Spirit should be on here. Not on the most nerfed since it wasn't great to start with, but at least mentioned. The nerf from -30HP on wearer to a 30% damage vulnerability was pretty brutal. Going from 270 health to about 230 effective health, and making the vulnerability from the buffalo steak even WORSE...you'd have to be crazy to use it now.
I really, really don't understand why heavy's melee of all things is considered by valve to be the most dangerous thing for game balance. Let's forget that heavy is slow so melee is difficult, his stock options are minigun and shotgun, both of which will shred people in close quarters, how is a bit more melee damage going to break the game when the same class can delete close people with primary?
@@Boltscrap Especially when Demoknight exists in the same game.
@@Boltscrap Clearly one of the valve devs got uppercutted to oblivion and lost the game for their team, so made it their life goal to make sure no heavy will ever use his fists again.
background music is i am bread ost if anyone was looking for it
Thanks, I forgot
Everything keeps gets nerfed until one day (in the off chance TF2 ever gets balance changes) using anything other than a stock weapon would be a meme (and not the good kind, I'm talking the Hot Hand and Sharpened Volcano Fragment kind).
Honestly, with how many of these nerfs were pushed by sweaty, lime-colored comp kiddies, I’m pretty sure that was the idea. Make nothing but stock viable.
Honestly, I’d take pre-2015 TF2 over modern TF2 any day. I’d take some unbalanced weapons if it meant I could just have fun with weapons that aren’t stock anymore.
I miss that short period of time where hype charged with running and it had the 5 jumps. Made jump maps really fun as scout. Maybe wasn't the best for balance.
Congrats on getting 100k I just subscribed but I’ve been watching your vids for a few months now
I've played this game in 2011- 2015 and then I quit the game for 7 years.
I reloged early this year and I was surprised by how many weapons were really bad (Most of them used to be very good back in the day).
I still remember how Dead Ringer + L'etranger + YER used to be META on Spy and now in 2022 it's just pure garbage.
My main (Scout) also used to have really good loadout which was Scattergun + Flying Guillotine + Sandman. Now it's just pathetic how bad it is...
The DR+L'Entranger+YER set only worked when you equipped a hat (the Familiar Fez) that made your decloak completely silent. It was a really bad mechanic, so they removed all of the set bonuses that required cosmetic items. The silent DR decloak with silent backstabs was a broken combination anyways.
12:24 oh shit mini-crits add 35% damage now that it does 33% less damage it is a straight downgrade
0:22 Oh the nostalgia I miss the old sandman
The dead ringer used to activate on backstabs too, I remember because me and a friend used to backstab each other on low gravity servers to do stupid jumps.
Forgot to mention how the dead ringer had the saharan set which made your decloaks silent
the sandman nerf also removed most of the stun voice lines for scout right? or am i wrong?
yeah, I really do miss Scout saying "oh dat's a skull fracture for sure" when you landed a ball
@@teamfortresspewp6453 man that's sad, so a nerf ultimately made some voice lines into unused content, and i hate unused content
@@likky1 If it weren't for revert servers TF2 wouldn't be quite as fun for me. one thing I will note is that in mvm if you disguise as a scout and then sap the robots, stunning them, the sandman lines will play which is an interesting relic of what is long gone.
13:38 most facts ever spit on tf2 youtube
6:55
This weapon was actually nerfed because of a completely unrelated weapon, the dead ringer. The downside was an increase to enter cloak time, and the dead ringer had that stat literally not apply to it because it’s cloak time upon taking a hit is instant. So, it was, when used with the dead ringer, a literal direct upgrade over stock.
If you ever do a video like this again you should talk about the Quick-Fix. It got nerfed hard in Meet Your Match both directly by its reduced uber rate and indirectly by how mediguns in general changed with that update, and that was after other nerfs prior like no longer being able to cap objectives while ubered.
the base jumper makes it basically impossible to hit someone with projectile weapons
guess what else does the exact same fucking thing, the airblast
and noone seems to be crying over how clearly overpowered that mechanic is
*Mmhm Hmmf mhmfm!*
Although airblast is a very powerful tool it needs timing and aiming greater than the soldier's shooting a rocket, and it also is the only thing that makes pyro worth using
@@puddin555 well, skill = op is kinda balanced, I mean a lot more than...whatever the wrangler or other stuff in tf2 are.
Honestly, they might as well have just removed the Reserve Shooter from Pyro outright. The entire reason the Reserve Shooter can be equipped by Pyro is the airblast. If you're going to make the weapon specifically work on the Soldier's method of forcing people into the air, but not Pyro's, what's the point of Pyro even having the weapon?
The current implementation of the weapon is a direct downgrade from the stock Shotgun for Pyro. Like, how are you even supposed to use it? Pop people into the air with reflected rockets? Shoot it at enemy Pyros using the Thermal Thruster? What is the gameplay goal of the weapon even at this point?
the nerf is stupid . imagine getting mad because you were killed in ambush by a class that specializes in close quarter combat . is like getting mad at sniper for locking down a choke point form the safety of his team
What's funny is that originally it couldn't be equipped on the pyro. They added that in an update. And then nerfed it so bad it may as well have never been added.
Also the sandman’s nerfs broke pretty much all of the ball related achievements
I remember when dead ringer could save you from a backstab and a fully charged headshot, damn was that something.