A LOT to consider here, but making these videos is incredibly fun, so expect more! If you have cool ideas as far as core codex chapter vs supplement chapter balance goes, please let me know in the comments! Thanks for watching!
You could also do the Hounds of Morkai thing. Use an existing kit, have a chapter get special rules for it. So White Scars could have better Outriders, Salamanders better Flamestorm Aggressors or Eradicators, Imperial Fists Heavy Intercessors, etc. A way to give them more units without having to do anything as far as models go. And could even not give Ultramarines any to try and even things out a bit.
I think a streamlined way to do the points updates would be to have specific units in specific chapters listed as a points change from the compliant chapters. For example, jump AInts could be changed back to 80pt for the main codex and Blood Angels could have the increased price on their points list with a note to the rules lawyers stating that this price supersedes the main codex price. This avoids having to copy/paste the other 400 datasheets' worth of SM unit points.
Imho, one important thing about updates to keep in mind is that it should nut punish other factions/detachement (so you do not frustrate people), but rather reward taking the detache/factions lagging behind so they become as intresting as the leading ones. Since every vanilla detachement is focussed around a certain type of units, why not just give each detachement a general points discount on units with that keyword of weapon ability? * Anvil Seige Force = for units with Heavy. So if majority of the models in the unit carry a weapon with HEAVY, it costs minus X point. * Ironstorm = for vehicles. So Vehicle keyword = minus X points * Fire storm Assault Force= if majority of the models in the unit carry a weapon with Torrent keyword it costs minus X point. * Strike force= mounted Key word * Vanguard = unit scout of infiltrate ability= minus X points I think this could make Vanilla marines slightly better because they might get to squeeze in an extra unit if they stick to what they do best, without punishing others.
At least 3 or 4 chapter specific characters (chapter master, chief librarian, apothecary, chaplain, tech marine, primarch - what ever fit's the lore) and maybe special captain and a special lieutenant with just special rules for one(!) generic model each (if there's not a special model like the BA captain or Ventris) per first founding Chapter + some 2nd founding or other important chapters (at least Black Templars, maybe Raptors [see decal sheets], Crimson Fists & Flesh Tearers). Those 3 or 4 specific characters shout match one of the chapter specific detachments - maybe just with things like "I you use chapter master of chapter X in the detachment, that is inspired by chapter X, you gain Y, were Y is the same over all detachments but you need the Iron Hands one to get Y in the Iron Hands detachment, Calgar to get Y with the Blueberrys one and so on. That for all 4: Y for chapter master, Z for chief librarian, and so on. That are at least 5 to 6 things that are the same over all chapters but bound to 3 or 4 specific and 2 generic or special models (like the new BA captain). With chapter master being the only role that's the same in all chapters. Black Templars have no chief librarian but Grimaldus might fit the same role. There don't have to be any lore or what for the special, just things likes CP gain, rerolls and so on. You can get it in every detachment but to get it, you have to use specific characters: "You wanna play Dante in the Salamanders detachment? Feel free to do so, but no CP gain for that combination." And on top of that you have flavoured things like Calgar being in gravis armour and hard hitting, Shrike is jump with stealth, Dante is jump with hard hitting and so on. But my guess is: that's too complex for what GW is trying to achieve.
I think I heard the concept from aisles tactics and I sort of agree, it’s just give codex chapters a rules boost. Maybe give them the old oath of moment (I don’t like this one) or give them detachment specific rules that non coded chapters don’t get. Some I made up were: Firestorm could get reroll attack amounts once per unit per turn Gladius could is could get an extra cp on a 5+ each round Anvil maybe devastating wounds when standing still Fast one go faster idk Ironstorm blank damage once per round (however a rogal dorns? ablative plating works) Vanguard: extra AP or +1 to hit and wound or soemthing when your full strength unit attacks another full strength unit
I feel if you fix the overpowered divergent units (ex Azrael), that would help a lot. My expectation, though, is that they'll gìve each compliant chapter some buff in "their" detachment. Ex: in the Vanguard detachment, Raven Guard units can re-roll 1s to hit and wound on the charge or whatever. Sadly, that would only apply to units led by Shrike.
Gonna be honest, I'm in love with playing Blood Angels in the Firestorm detachment and if the entire main SM faction has to be absolute dogwater it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. We could make it so if you have the 'correct' faction tag, such as Salamanders in the Firestorm, perhaps certain key units get points discounts, or even strategems getting CP discounts that stack with the Captain ability
Before watching, I’d argue the easiest way to balance it would be to not allow Blood angels, dark angels, space wolves, and black templars to use codex space marine detachments, and to even give separate point values for key problem models
I'd say the best quick compromise would probably be to block each supplement Chapters from accessing as least 3 Codex Detachments in return for their 3 specific Detachments. The reality though is that it's about marketing. Supplement chapters are better this edition because they are selling new models for them. It will likely switch in the future when they make more special characters for less popular chapters.
I would much rather see a world where there are incentives instead of punishment. If you play the white scar detachment and you have vanilla and white scar units, you get a special rule to make bikes better. But if you add any keywords from another chapter you lose the boost. The real question is: why do Divergent chapters even get their own separate codex in 10th edition
Supplement chapters simply need their own points for codex data sheets. And they could probably do without some data sheets like do we really think space wolves would use eliminators over wolf scout veterans?
Personally only see separated points for each book to be the long term option. All these "pay for detachments" or locking out the codes ones out only hurt and annoy supplent users and doesn't help the codex one at all. No balance was made only division and outcry.
This is what happens when factions are relegated to being supplements to another faction instead of getting a full codex of their own. Really this is a side effect of the existence of primaris as it means divergent chapters have to be more codex aligned, they can't be separate anymore. In older editions separate codexes meant stricter unit restrictions, for example SW couldn't have ironclads, thunderfire cannons, land speeder storms, bike squads, scout bikes, veterans, etc because it didn't fit their doctrine. Choosing divergent meant you lost those good units, and that would be the best way to make codex chapters better. However because primaris exist that's not an option because now half an army would have to be proxied, see deathwatch for example Edit: people everywhere go on about detachments all the time but that's missing the point completely. What makes a divergent chapter divergent is its units, and GW needs to restrict those to make a balance between compliant and divergent. Space wolves should have 0 intercessors of any kind whatsoever, because the choice should be between them and the actual SW units
Another day, another deluded suggestion to "ban" divergent chapters from the SM codex. That's always suggested. It'll never work. Look, I'm sorry that your super unique "Space Unicorns" chapter that you though of on you own, with zero special units or characters, wins less than divergent chapters. But that doesn't give you the right to take stuff away from me. You want to use an unique fluffy chapter, that's your choice, you pay the price. Imagine that, handicapping yourself for fluffy purposes has a negative consequence? Quick, punish other players as well! All SM players should suffer because Your Majesty wants to be special. I'm sorry that I'm harsh but I'm extremely tired of other people trying to take stuff away from me because of choices they made. It's not like divergent chapters are top of the meta anyway.
A LOT to consider here, but making these videos is incredibly fun, so expect more!
If you have cool ideas as far as core codex chapter vs supplement chapter balance goes, please let me know in the comments!
Thanks for watching!
You could also do the Hounds of Morkai thing. Use an existing kit, have a chapter get special rules for it. So White Scars could have better Outriders, Salamanders better Flamestorm Aggressors or Eradicators, Imperial Fists Heavy Intercessors, etc. A way to give them more units without having to do anything as far as models go. And could even not give Ultramarines any to try and even things out a bit.
UMs should get back Victrix guard, just special rules for BladeGuard would work
This is the approach I’d want to see. More datasheets and kitbashing. Plus GW gets to sell more kits
I think a streamlined way to do the points updates would be to have specific units in specific chapters listed as a points change from the compliant chapters. For example, jump AInts could be changed back to 80pt for the main codex and Blood Angels could have the increased price on their points list with a note to the rules lawyers stating that this price supersedes the main codex price. This avoids having to copy/paste the other 400 datasheets' worth of SM unit points.
Imho, one important thing about updates to keep in mind is that it should nut punish other factions/detachement (so you do not frustrate people), but rather reward taking the detache/factions lagging behind so they become as intresting as the leading ones.
Since every vanilla detachement is focussed around a certain type of units, why not just give each detachement a general points discount on units with that keyword of weapon ability?
* Anvil Seige Force = for units with Heavy. So if majority of the models in the unit carry a weapon with HEAVY, it costs minus X point.
* Ironstorm = for vehicles. So Vehicle keyword = minus X points
* Fire storm Assault Force= if majority of the models in the unit carry a weapon with Torrent keyword it costs minus X point.
* Strike force= mounted Key word
* Vanguard = unit scout of infiltrate ability= minus X points
I think this could make Vanilla marines slightly better because they might get to squeeze in an extra unit if they stick to what they do best, without punishing others.
At least 3 or 4 chapter specific characters (chapter master, chief librarian, apothecary, chaplain, tech marine, primarch - what ever fit's the lore) and maybe special captain and a special lieutenant with just special rules for one(!) generic model each (if there's not a special model like the BA captain or Ventris) per first founding Chapter + some 2nd founding or other important chapters (at least Black Templars, maybe Raptors [see decal sheets], Crimson Fists & Flesh Tearers).
Those 3 or 4 specific characters shout match one of the chapter specific detachments - maybe just with things like "I you use chapter master of chapter X in the detachment, that is inspired by chapter X, you gain Y, were Y is the same over all detachments but you need the Iron Hands one to get Y in the Iron Hands detachment, Calgar to get Y with the Blueberrys one and so on.
That for all 4: Y for chapter master, Z for chief librarian, and so on. That are at least 5 to 6 things that are the same over all chapters but bound to 3 or 4 specific and 2 generic or special models (like the new BA captain). With chapter master being the only role that's the same in all chapters. Black Templars have no chief librarian but Grimaldus might fit the same role.
There don't have to be any lore or what for the special, just things likes CP gain, rerolls and so on. You can get it in every detachment but to get it, you have to use specific characters: "You wanna play Dante in the Salamanders detachment? Feel free to do so, but no CP gain for that combination."
And on top of that you have flavoured things like Calgar being in gravis armour and hard hitting, Shrike is jump with stealth, Dante is jump with hard hitting and so on.
But my guess is: that's too complex for what GW is trying to achieve.
I think I heard the concept from aisles tactics and I sort of agree, it’s just give codex chapters a rules boost.
Maybe give them the old oath of moment (I don’t like this one) or give them detachment specific rules that non coded chapters don’t get.
Some I made up were:
Firestorm could get reroll attack amounts once per unit per turn
Gladius could is could get an extra cp on a 5+ each round
Anvil maybe devastating wounds when standing still
Fast one go faster idk
Ironstorm blank damage once per round (however a rogal dorns? ablative plating works)
Vanguard: extra AP or +1 to hit and wound or soemthing when your full strength unit attacks another full strength unit
Oh right 1st company task force: once per turn free strat for a unit idk
I feel if you fix the overpowered divergent units (ex Azrael), that would help a lot.
My expectation, though, is that they'll gìve each compliant chapter some buff in "their" detachment. Ex: in the Vanguard detachment, Raven Guard units can re-roll 1s to hit and wound on the charge or whatever. Sadly, that would only apply to units led by Shrike.
Gonna be honest, I'm in love with playing Blood Angels in the Firestorm detachment and if the entire main SM faction has to be absolute dogwater it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
We could make it so if you have the 'correct' faction tag, such as Salamanders in the Firestorm, perhaps certain key units get points discounts, or even strategems getting CP discounts that stack with the Captain ability
Before watching, I’d argue the easiest way to balance it would be to not allow Blood angels, dark angels, space wolves, and black templars to use codex space marine detachments, and to even give separate point values for key problem models
I'd say the best quick compromise would probably be to block each supplement Chapters from accessing as least 3 Codex Detachments in return for their 3 specific Detachments.
The reality though is that it's about marketing. Supplement chapters are better this edition because they are selling new models for them. It will likely switch in the future when they make more special characters for less popular chapters.
I would much rather see a world where there are incentives instead of punishment. If you play the white scar detachment and you have vanilla and white scar units, you get a special rule to make bikes better. But if you add any keywords from another chapter you lose the boost.
The real question is: why do Divergent chapters even get their own separate codex in 10th edition
quick fix, different points.
longer fix, split them of it is time, just like what was done with the Chaos Legions.
Imperial Fists have 2 characters, Tor Gradon and Darnath Lysander. Still they do not compete well with Ultramarine like you said in the video.
Supplement chapters simply need their own points for codex data sheets. And they could probably do without some data sheets like do we really think space wolves would use eliminators over wolf scout veterans?
Personally only see separated points for each book to be the long term option. All these "pay for detachments" or locking out the codes ones out only hurt and annoy supplent users and doesn't help the codex one at all. No balance was made only division and outcry.
This is what happens when factions are relegated to being supplements to another faction instead of getting a full codex of their own. Really this is a side effect of the existence of primaris as it means divergent chapters have to be more codex aligned, they can't be separate anymore.
In older editions separate codexes meant stricter unit restrictions, for example SW couldn't have ironclads, thunderfire cannons, land speeder storms, bike squads, scout bikes, veterans, etc because it didn't fit their doctrine. Choosing divergent meant you lost those good units, and that would be the best way to make codex chapters better. However because primaris exist that's not an option because now half an army would have to be proxied, see deathwatch for example
Edit: people everywhere go on about detachments all the time but that's missing the point completely. What makes a divergent chapter divergent is its units, and GW needs to restrict those to make a balance between compliant and divergent. Space wolves should have 0 intercessors of any kind whatsoever, because the choice should be between them and the actual SW units
I feel like the best solution is to just completely separate them.
Going from codex**suplement* to... codex**Punishement**
😂
Easy. Take a non core chapter keyword, it locks you out of the codex and you have to use the supplement detachments.
Another day, another deluded suggestion to "ban" divergent chapters from the SM codex. That's always suggested. It'll never work.
Look, I'm sorry that your super unique "Space Unicorns" chapter that you though of on you own, with zero special units or characters, wins less than divergent chapters.
But that doesn't give you the right to take stuff away from me. You want to use an unique fluffy chapter, that's your choice, you pay the price. Imagine that, handicapping yourself for fluffy purposes has a negative consequence? Quick, punish other players as well! All SM players should suffer because Your Majesty wants to be special.
I'm sorry that I'm harsh but I'm extremely tired of other people trying to take stuff away from me because of choices they made. It's not like divergent chapters are top of the meta anyway.