Decision-Making in Smash
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- Опубліковано 24 лют 2020
- When your next decision determines the fate of the match - do you stop and think, or let your instincts take over?
Special thanks to:
twitch.tv/vgbootcamp
twitch.tv/btssmash
twitch.tv/ssbmhax
Further reading:
The Inner Game of Tennis
lloD's Guide to Improvement (docs.google.com/document/d/1x...)
Laugh's Theory ( • Analysis: The Three Ty... )
Thanks for watching!
rishissb
twitch.tv/rishi
rishissb - Ігри
rishi's advanced guide to the philosophy of fsmashing in neutral
Don't forget the pivot though.
to be fair you need to have a very iq to understand fsmashing in neutral
lmao i swear this is literally the phenomenology of smash, ideas explored in this video could very well be extended to everyday life
As an Ultimate player all options lead to up b out of shield
If your character has a good up b out of shield, you're carried. That's just how it is, I don't make the rules.
(cries in DK and Ike player)
Listen if my opponent even thinks about touching my shield that's on them
i heh'd
Sounds lame
THAT ENDING LMAO
A suprise, to be sure, but a welcome one
That alone was worth a like
The inner leffen
I love how Zain picks up hungry box's controller after he pops off on him
Respect the game
What a gentlemen
@@sudarshanseshadri5504 enh, it's hype.
@@sudarshanseshadri5504 I don't think it was disrespectful. Just a popoff tbh
I think one of the major things this model is missing is how much our conscious attention in game is structured. Rather than say what is mang0 seeing when he picks up on a habit he can use later, asking what a high level player is ignoring can be much more instructive. Wizzy has said that when he's reaction tech chasing there is no room for any other information about the game to come through. He has to tune out literally everything in order to execute his win condition. The set of information filters we construct as competitors is integral in what defines our play style and decision tree. The filters are part of the "doer" part of your paradigm, but IMO should be treated as distinct from purely physical execution part of doing.
This is actually hella informative, this should get signal boosted because this is super important and not something I see getting talked about at all.
That explains why my reaction time is literal shit when I'm actually thinking and not playing on instinct.
@@lmao2302 And wizzy is probably tuning in to the handful of pixels on the screen that in a microsend will indicate where the opponent is teching... how many players are looking at the screen, or their character, hearing the music, seeing colors -- wasted info, wasted attention.
this is very important in shooter games too (entire point of crosshair placement)
Out of all the analysts I'm definitely the inner Complainer.
I've always viewed the relationship between the doer and analyst (self 1/self 2) like a relationship between horse and rider. The rider (analyst) guides the horse (doer), but the horse is truly in control. If the rider tries to force their will on the horse, the horse won't respond well. Instead, the rider must gently nudge the horse in the right direction and let it go.
Thats a perfect analogy
Beautifully said
Entering a perfect flow state or "the zone" is then fusing with the horse to become an out of control reverse cenataur who runs 10 times faster than a horse at its fastest speed.
In other words, flow. You expressed a major problem found in competitive gamers quite elegantly.
As someone who rides this is incredibly true
I used to main peach for a while until I realized how much I liked to complain about Melee.
Thank you Rishi I found out my third self for some time now as a Fox player, but I didn't know that the voice was a my "inner complainer"
same but i like pissing people of besides complaining once a peach main now a puff main
Rishi: What should Marth do in this situation.
E: L+R+A+ST DK
Excellent video as always Rishi!
Omg it's False Swipe Gaming
Custom Robo music slaps so hard man, SUCH an under rated game and soundtrack
The soundtrack is amazing, but I tried to go back to that game in 2019 and it does not hold up well. The graphics are terrible and the writing is poor.
Tried it again recently, not fun
Custom Robo goes hard not because of the graphics and story but the gameplay battle royale can be hype as fuck
I'm impressed you referenced one of the best tennis books you can read for trying to go pro. I usually don't sub to melee channels but here I go
Woah it’s yee
Inner game of tennis is practically the fighting game bible. Having played tennis and melee, im pretty sure it's better melee advice than tennis advice. (Not to take from away its profound insights into improving at tennis)
In real fighting, bruce lee would have told you to "be like water" and im pretty sure he was talking about the same thing. It's all about flow state.
Excellent video. Great work Rishi!
Came for the Rishi, stayed for the stinger.
I just opened the video, i am on the pop quiz, and my prediction is you will talk about the quiz options the entire video and then determine grabbing was actually the best option at the very end
poor read
@@joe4570 yeah i'm a little disappointed, the end card meme was definitely not what i expected
yeah, he said next best. was it just assumed that grab was actually the best?
I honestly expected grab to be one of the options. In hindsight it definitely would've whiffed but I figure that's just what most marths would do in neutral while that close to fox.
If this ended up being correct I would not have believed it
hey smash god, this is umbreon. i remember you helping vote on rule sets in the melee back room wayyy back in like 2007. you've come a long way since then, good work
when the pop quiz came up, i picked "grab" and was disappointed when there wasnt an option for it. even with 2 matches of prior information, i personally would not risk a neutral blade hit at 0% in a MU that is so specific to grabs. fox also has poor position on marth and has no good choice but to dash and hope marth doesnt correctly take stage, making grab that much better.
The "inner mogul mover".
my heart tells me that you edited that winning DK footage onto that B-roll, but my mind saw the big house and knows it's true
Wow, Rishi, I must say that in the first portion of the video, I was let down by your choice of presenting a quiz with such pointless direction, but you completely swept that up -- only using it to ease into some very profound philosophical discussion about the nature of "pointless direction" and cultivating it to be the right direction for you... There is much benefit to identifying personal mind body and heart patterns in one's own gameplay, and even more benefit to identifying it in one's opponent; it doesn't lose value whether it's done before or during a match. It is just an incredibly valuable lesson and guide to focus development.
I would also like to add that I have NEVER seen such relevant and fascinating clips adjacent to commentary related to their contents... For me, watching Mango follow Shroomed as you articulate the abstract definition or articulation of heart logic was like watching a puzzle piece finish a puzzle. Likewise with n0ne short hopping back in front of shield. You are wonderful for creating this; I am ecstatic for more of your rationality!
In your head there are two wolves, neither one can ledgedash
I’ve really enjoyed the last few videos you made. They do a good job at being both informative and entertaining. Also, you always have good BGM choices. Keep it up!
"in my set against zain at the big house 8"
Nice
this is a perfect video and i love you so much for making it Rishi, thank you
The INNER COMPLAINER: When you're having a tough time with that ONE character when you're playing the BEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME and you rave about how doomed the future of this game is, while other players of weaker characters are putting up with several bad MUs.
This is an extremely well thought out video that applies so handily to competition in general - well done! Love it!
great video, love hearing you discuss the way you see the game + mindset interactions.
A great companion book to The Inner Game of Tennis is Brad Gilbert's Winning Ugly. If you read it, Gilbert himself might sound a lot like the protagonist from the manga Baby Steps which is also about tennis. He talks a lot about formulating a gameplan (as an analyst) and "programming" yourself (as the doer) to react to the situations you think will come up. He talks all about how he does this for specific players while he was on the pro tour, and outlines his plans on how to beat the world's top tennis players at the time (which he has at least on one occasion, except for a couple).
We seriously need more videos like this. This video has been a landmark for my progression as a player
Just found your channel I really like how you tackle subjects in a different way to others. You are my new favorite smash youtuber. Love the content keep it up!
Excellent work and very insightful, had to go back through just to fully understand, thank you so much !!
Actually one of the most useful videos I’ve ever seen for smash. Every player needs to see this. Fantastic work
This video really helped me understand how I go about thinking, and how to improve my way of thinking. Thanks Rishi.
Great video! Reminded me of Gerald Lee’s Core-A Gaming video on the same subject of 3 Types of Player. Both are excellent.
Thanks for the upload, Rishi! I've been looking forward to it! Great video
does the inner complainer also have a body, mind and heart?
well they at least have a mouth to whine with
No, they're empty
3 hearts and each one is pissed about something different.
This framework only becomes more interesting when you realize it applies to other things too. For example, in writing music I can identify times where mind (theory) body (common practices, instrumentation) and heart (feeling out melodic lines and grooves) interact and either helped or held the others back.
One of the fascinating things about philosophy is how many repeating patterns it reveals throughout our reality.
This whole way of vidoe really spoke to me and i think ill try and think and look diffrently at smash now. Thanks rishi, awesome vid 👌
These video essays are too good, please keep making them!
i think the way you described "body" made it seem far better than mind and heart, or even a combination of both. is body supposed to have downsides to tunnelvisioning on / is it supposed to be equal to the other two?
I think of the body player as somebody who archetypally overwhelms you with sheer innovation and technical skill. This doesn't really exist by itself in modern melee tho. I would only identify like 3 players that would or have tried to overwhelm opponents with sheer tech in modern melee, with varying degrees of success and relevance
1. Syrox
2. Relno
3. ARMY WOOOO LET'S GO ARMY WOBBLING IS THE MOST TECHNICAL HIGH APM COMBO IN THE GAME GOD TOP PLAYER ARMY WOOO
the body player is one who focuses on overall gameplan, primarily concerning the most effective way to interact with your opponent. They think very broadly, in order to cover all of their bases. "stay at this range in neutral, outspace him with X move, try to make him whiff because whiff punishing is good in the mu". The downside to this is that it is easy to get caught up in what an effective strategy should be, and when their is a chink in their armor it can be difficult for them to switch up an entire gameplan on the fly. For example, if your general gameplan with fox is to run away and laser camp, and yet your opponent shows you that its not going to work against them, they struggle to switch their style. They also often miss the more specific situational reads that could be getting them kills. This gameplan most invites autopiloting into the picture since you are thinking so broadly.
A better way to categorize it would be Heart -> Reads, Body -> Game plans, Mind -> Specific situations. The heart, body and mind definition is too abstract imo.
Body relies to much on "meta" and what their opponent "should" do. It can be a huge downfall if the opponent has a very unique playstyle or maybe plays an unfamiliar character
To break down, I think:
Heart = Read/forming strats around your opponent
Body = learning the meta-game to come up with all encompassing philosophies
Mind = Coming up with strats to deal with specific situations
Heart is largely ignorant of the technical side and is more focused on the "heart" or tendencies of their opponent, "feeling" out what they will do through experience
Body is largely ignorant of details. More specifically, they're ignorant of the act of playing the game. They are the type of person more concerned with coming up with and analyzing tier lists and understanding who is good at what in a general sense. Body players consider the whole, but not the parts that make up the whole. Body often considers the ideals and not what a player will actually do in a real situation. In this sense, they're also ignorant of the heart.
Mind is the opposite of body, and is also probably why people play low-tiers. They're ignorant of the meta and are focused on the small scale, often ignoring the bigger picture which could lead to a broader understanding. If Body has the mindset of "X character has the best nair in the game", mind has the mindset of "X character's X move is/isn't safe/useful in X situations/against X character's X moves"
strengths:
Heart: Reads/player analysis
Body: Meta/ideals/match-ups
Mind: scenario analysis/safety
weaknesses:
Heart: "Goes with the flow"; Lacking in technical knowledge.
Body: Only considers best options, forgets most players aren't machines
Mind: Only considers possibilities, ignorant of opponent biases/tendencies
this reminds me a lot of a core-a gaming video, is that the main inspiration here? really cool if so
Between this and the choosing your main video I’m lovin the content
Rishi, you are insanely good at this. You have an excellent cadence and a nice vocal tone overall. Keep making stuff!
Great video. Definitely put into words how I’ve felt about my competitive mindset these pst 2 years. Including part 3 of the guide ;) I would’ve liked to see you mention execution, as I believe it’s a smaller but crucial part of accessing the analyst and doer abilities at a higher capacity.
I was thinking of The Inner Game of Tennis when you mentioned the analyst and the doer, amazing book
There is always a balance one must learn in everything. You can't be too emotional or too calculated. You need to incorporate both in order to succeed, otherwise your plan falls apart and you become predictable. It's always a tough balance, learning it comes with time and reflection, but there are ways to make it easier. One of which is to pick a character can apply a play style of balance well in a match. For this reason I argue Mario is SS+ tier and will dominate the meta in 24 years when player's brains have evolved enough to see the game in slow motion and get the optimal punishes every time
Nice video ! Feel like your ideas are well explained and the music is rad 👌👌🤙🏻
These are the kind of topics I enjoy seeing people's points of view on, thanks for making this! My analyst and doer don't collaborate well; doer refuses to work when I give the analyst attention. How do I train them to work together? My approach: as primarily a heart player I must realize the mind body and heart are all individual muscles of the analyst and first I have to work on evening out the muscles of the analyst before trying to get the doer to trust the analyst.
This is genuinely beautiful
Great video ! I've never seen this subject explained from that angle
This is the most helpful guide of its kind. Thanks Rishi.
I just get blazed and it combines the analyst doer combo really well.
Recently playing rainbow 6 i started to apply a similar concept but with not only the analyst and doer, but also the critic and the captain
Good content! Well sourced and thought out.
Seeing the last bit, all the Johns came flowing through my head.
Great video, Rishi! As someone who´s getting into Melee who loves psychology/ cognitive theory this was amazing. Though your description of the body player sounded more like a strategy based game vs the more tactics based mind player. Both of those seem to be the realm of a mind player. A body player is more akin to an athlete (better reactions, techskill, etc). It does come through in your explanation, but not quite. Or how do you see it?
I believe you're right in most games, but in a game as fast as melee where your mind and body are almost never fully in sync, it's important to make the distinction between a player who acts on a macro sense and one who acts on a micro sense. Mind and body players are processing information differently while they play. To use the example from the beginning of the video, the body player would think "when foxes are dashing away and marth dashes forward, they usually get aggressive and turn around and short hop nair to avoid getting grabbed or down-tilted" and would probably choose to wavedash back and reset neutral: the no-risk, low-reward option. The mind player would probably choose to either dtilt or sh nair, because in this specific interaction sh nair would beat the fox's sh nair or the dtilt would hit fox if he stayed grounded. Both options have a small amount of risk but offer branching follow-ups if they hit: a low-risk, medium-reward way to win the interaction. The heart player, as Rishi demonstrated, would choose the high-risk, high-reward option.
Love this content. Keep it up, Rishi!
I love this video is like a bridge between melee technique and zen teachings.
Very important aspect of the game that is difficult to explain. Great video dude!
one of the best vidoes ive come across in years
This video was great!! I really appreciate that you used custom robo music! I subscribed! I look forward to your next videos
watch the rest of his channel
Loved the choice of music!
This is the type of melee videos i want. Keep them coming
Interestingly, I always thought that the analyst was a mind player, the
doer was a heart player, and that body play was its own third category involving creating a flow chart that includes total character knowledge, tech, and option availability in any given scenario. Given that mix up, I developed my own way of thinking wherein your goal is to combine the benefits of both my heart and mind concepts because in psychology, flow state is defined as a perfect harmony between thought and action. I believe that conscious thought is like ram and unconscious thought is like flash memory, so to delegate as much information to the unconscious as possible is the best way to make it readily available for the "doer" the heart to access and use mid match. The way that this can be achieved is by setting up an inner mechanism to create "flags" about what the opponent does in any given scenario. These flags are like primers so that the next time they show up, the flag is raised and one does not need to consciously think through what has happened, but react to the flag and put out an option. How do I think about this process mid match. I divide it into 3 phases. First is awareness, which implies an unconscious focus and attention to the opponent, paired with inner patience and reservation not to overcommit to any option but to take in information. Awareness should be the foundation behind an entire match. The next phase is Anticipation, which implies having the flags set up as primers and being prepared to mentally react to them when they are raised again. The benefit to anticipation is it also does not rely on conscious slow thought but uses the advantages that come with reaction speed. The last phase is action/reaction/doing. whatever you like to call it. And the benefit of having these steps in place are that one has constant internal preparation and so when a flag is raised, you can already have a mentally preprepared response that optimally takes advantage of the situation. While in flow state, this mechanism should work flawlessly within the personal flowchart and tools one has with their level of tech skill and character/game knowledge, but if one errs toward mind or toward body, each side has its drawbacks. My one question is where to fit conditioning into this model, and so far I think i just have it relegated to what the conscious mind works on during the game when playing optimally but idk. Lmk if you happen to read this what your thoughts are
Damn good video Rishi.
Also hype part 3
love your work man
another fantastic video rishi
I love these thoughts
Rumor has it the boys are still smashing to this day regardless of skill level.
Love the chill Custom Robo music, great video
The way I look at this is that you have to be able to notice important information during a match, and that analysing replays is how you can teach yourself how to notice that important information. The mind/heart/body categories are just different lenses you can look through when assessing a situation.
the analyst vs doer stuff reminds me of system 1 and 2 from the core a gaming vid "playing fast and slow"
I'm so glad I stuck around to see the secret part 3 to this video 5 starts would recommend
I think this actually helps me quite a bit in handling my shortcomings because I have straightforward ideas and I can break down specific situations.
However, what I lack is the ability to act on predictions and think actively as I let my autopilot do all the work. But at the same time, I also have an opposite issue where if I think too much I end up in worse situations.
I think what I should do to improve is to try and act on predictions a bit while trying to become an active thinker. Thanks Rishi!
What I do, personally, is I start by just taking bits and pieces of information from my opponent. What their favorite move in neutral in, what their favorite edge guarding strategy is, and most importantly keeping a tally of their tech rolls. You have no idea how many stocks I've taken by fsmashing their tech in place, because they get conditioned into thinking it's the best option because I rely on tech chasing for a lot of my punishes (PM Roy btw).
Bob Jones I play ultimate (judge me lol) but I still think the processes and terminology still apply.
I love your take on the philosophy of melee.
Thank you for the video Rishi. I hope i improve thx to this :D
Because I'm a language teacher (and learner) with a CS background, I view the process of learning decision making like the process of attaining fluency in a foreign language, but the language is the language of operations in a two player game with hidden information in the form of the reaction time delay. Basically however your inner analyst thinks, it then has to take on the role of an inner coach and teach the doer each action in the strategy and then get each if those actions learned to the point that it can be treated as an operation in a greater and more abstract action. There's never really a correct action in any given situation, but there are two 'correct' weightings of options (which are learned strings of inputs, it's really hard to do options you haven't practiced) in any given situation. The first is the game theoretic dominant strat weighting. If there's only one 100% option there and you can execute it 100% of the time, you have to learn to do it every time. But aside from that it's not usually optimal to follow this arrangement, e.g. GTO strat isn't good in computer RPS tournaments. You could call this the 'mind' solution. The second 'correct' weighting is the best weighting based on what you know about the other person as a human being. It's likely to be an adjustment of the GTO weighting. This sort of read has way more tournament success because it doesn't randomly lose to technically proficient players with zero decision making ability. It might be the 'heart' element in your framework. The 'body' most closely resembles the action learning part of my framework, although I don't include gameplans explicitly anywhere because I think in practice you're correct but in theory it depends on what kind of game plan you use which part of the decision making process it touches.
So in this model, you can learn increasingly abstract actions as sounds, words, phrases. Initially, players are limited by their vocabulary and can only emit routine sequences and predictable patterns. But as they become more technically proficient, it becomes possible to generate wholly new sentences of gameplay and unexpected utterances like the first clip you played because they have the body and mind stuff to support it. As such, I feel like there's a kind of heirarchy, the body stuff supports the mind stuff, and the mind stuff and the body stuff support the heart stuff. So learning decision making requires an understanding of the sequences in our acquisition of melee ability so that we can devise the right training for our brains neural networks and use them in the right training programme to create fluent players as quickly as possible, and help fluent players become proficient, where they can have a solid and well developed theory spanning multiple strategies and gameplans in each matchup on each stage.
I strongly believe that we have a lot more to see in the development of our play in this game. (Especially me, possibly the least trained player in the entire world.)
Lmao i then opened your choosing your main video, i see u are already familiar with this idea
In my experience theres like a consistent demon that haunts all these three player types.
Heart Based players play the player MU rather than the character MU, so when they think they're getting better by playing their friends only to findout they still lose to tourney opponents because they don't have the habits of their friends, they have to force themselves to play a wider pool of ppl to keep getting better.
Mind based players are often well balanced and most consistent of the bunch but they seem to have trouble really specializing in their play like the other 2. This leads to trouble finding out what their strong suit might be on some days.
Body players are extremely disciplined and can literally get all their quality practice off few training partners because they p much STRICTLY PLAY the character MU point for point rather than the player. They don't pick on habits like the heart based player, but this also opens up body based players to inconsistencies and just having spontaneous off days where their hands just aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. I know this feeling as I identify with this type and its infuriating...
Yeah this guy is going to blow up. He’s a genius! No cap
thanks ive been looking for a video essay on sun tzu for a while now
lol 6:31 the freeze frame with falco facing forward
I liked the part at the end where Thanos appears and puts on the glove
You're a legend for throwing in the Custom Robo tracks
Hit the nail on the head for me
thank you for making this
sick vid rishi
Great video man!
you make great videos and your marth is sick thanks for being you
Digging the Custom Robo music though
Damn these videos are good
My friend and I had a discussion on this topic not long ago. He categorized play styles into game maker, game changer, and game master. Essentially the same thing as body, heart, and mind
this channel is so great
love the ending
I think an additional part of this is what happens when something goes wrong during the "doer" phase, I have a friend who i would consider a "borp type", he plays sheik, and doesn't wave dash, wave land, ledge stall, L-cancel, ect... his most tech thing is dash dancing, and he plays around getting grabs. the reason this is relevant is, if you think about the inputs he has to do , for something like dash dance, downthrow, F-air, or dash attack F-air compared to even simple pillars with falco (that's my main) is huge. in summary, he has less to mess up because he is doing less, so his analyzer and doer are rarely in conflict. Where if i am a few frames late on any part or miss a L-cancel, I am tripped up for a longer period. I have much higher peaks in game play but he is way more consistent. and I think this is reflected in the characters we chose to play.
sorry for the long winded comment, here is a smile for the trouble :)
The best advice is at the end
Did I cross in here from another timeline because I swear to god I watched this like a year ago
The Last part got me XD i just love the truth about it
GJ on the video!
The custom robo ost is amazing
SECRET PART 3 WAS HYPE