Should Hero be banned? Should wobbling stay legal? What do you think of my proposed ruleset? Let me know in the comments! rishissb rishissb twitch.tv/rishi
We need rishi's jungle jam to become a side event. Although its a perfect ruleset it may be controversial so having it start out as a side event will help it inevitablly become the standard ruleset as it should be
nothing perfect about killing yourr apponent taking the stars waiting out enemyt invincibility and having invincibility advantage to snowball your lead
Well a better idea is : wobbling is enabled if only the player uses a more complex variation of it, that is di dependent. As such you could defend yourself, and the wobbler would need more effort than just chaining a grab and some ez inputs
@@davidbass3178 setting that time limit is tough because the number is arbitrary. Not saying I'm in favour of items, but their advantage is it gives the player being stalled a tool which they actively use rather than invoking an arbitrary number.
... Dammit, I was hoping for a serious video just so I could hear about more drama, but the presentation would make such a good troll I'm just gonna like the video anyway. Won't subscribe though definitely won't comment
I am genuinely confused about Rishi's Jungle Jam because I feel like it is a meme, but I would totally be down if this became a basis for a new ruleset
@@twoloavesofbread I feel thus ruleset is a lot more fun and three sticks is a nice change since it means there's no point to stall if your in the lead. In addition the Starman is so random and jank that it easily breaks stalling as even if you don't just grab ledge you can just spam moves and kick them ofg
Video essays like these are the pride of the Smash community, as it lays out all arguments clearly and concisely without coming off as condescending. Thank you, Rishi. I hope to see Rishi's Jungle Jam become the new Melee standard
I don't know. I think it would make an interesting side event, but my biggest problem is that there is only one stage. Personally, that would make it less fun to watch for long periods of time
@@griffinkimball2454 All tennis matches are played on the same court layout. All basketball games are played on the same court layout. All hockey games, soccer games, baseball... bowling....lacross......cricket.....etc...etc.
No joke, this is actually one of the best ruleset ideas I’ve ever. Rishi is a hidden genius and Rishi’s Jungle Jam should be played at Melee Friendlies, maybe even at actual tournaments if it gains enough traction.
Except it isn't. Gettings items only benefits the lucky. In mid combo, a star can literally spawn on your opponent and they kill you because of RNG. This is a joke of a suggestion. Throw away the CRT's. Pop on a modded melee with fixed stages. Ban wobbling. Ledge grab limit. That would literally fix all Major issues with Melee. The one thing people have to do is get used to a delay in movement. (which sucks)
NaJk93 there’s a ton of luck/probability based shit in smash, misfires, mr. game and watch 9s, stitchfaces, the whole lot. The whole point is to literally make that happen as little as possible
@@christheophilus7154 I can't say for sure if it does now, but I think he's referring to the insanely aggressive playstyle early seasons were infamous for
SIY yeah seasons 1 and 2 of sfv were very focused on aggression. however, the game still primarily played on the ground and prioritized grounded fundamentals. if you managed to get your hit, you could definitely carry it all the way to a win off 50/50s but you still needed to get that hit. a lot of the top tiers in sfiv would basically bypass neutral and “footsies” all together. akuma would just jump and throw fireballs and there wasn’t much characters could do, yun would just divekick all game and it was hard to counter because a neutral jump from yun was a mixup. many characters could just say “fuck neutral” and do a risky approach option and not have to worry because they could just fadc if their shit got blocked. i think sfiv is leagues better than sfv but the way people try to frame it as the pinnacle of footsies isn’t 100% true
@@ernestocuengil1366 imagine you pour your heart and soul into a game and then somebody who doesnt really care about the game comes along and kicks your ass
@@citrusblast4372 then you clearly aren't very good at the game, this is why tournaments are bo3 or even bo5 so worse players can't just "get lucky" and beat a better player
@@citrusblast4372 I don't know, he might have meant exactly what you said, or he might have been making a joke or an exaggeration. Even if he did mean that, I was just arguing against the possibility of it happening.
I think the saddest part about this video is that it took a legitimized player (with tournament performance) for this video to be paid attention to. Many older players, especially those of us from the SmashBoards 2004 days, have felt this way for a long time, even putting it into words on occasion, but no one listened because for some reason, theorycrafters aren't "legit" unless they attend tournaments and place high. Finally, Rishi addressed this and put the work into making this video. Most of this needed to be said (and was said) 10 years ago.
funny that you mention it. My brother was in competitive Smash back in 09' and he got mega shamed for suggesting practicing against cpus to work on comboes - i.e. punish game. Now pretty much everyone does it. Even before 20XX came around people were practicing punish game on CPUs. But not that long ago. My brother hasn't touched any Smash since 2010 now that I think about it smh
@Gianluca Tartaro Why? This isn't a troll. It's a legitimate ruleset. And it sounds super fun, balanced and spectacular. I would come back to competitive Melee if this were the ruleset.
Tbh the best way is to create a side event e.g. vanilla compatible jungle jam or even an agreed upon modded version. and see if and how it's integrated into the main game as it gains popularity
@@sptflcrw8583 no, you are wrong, no one here is a troll, especially not the guy you're replying to. Everyone here is completely serious, both rishi and the commenters.
When you started the Rishi's Jungle Jam part I laughed at the initial listing of elements, thinking it was a joke. But then it all made so much sense, and it should be the standard for sure.
@@StreamWatcher-kj7cb the starman is a solution to camping, but still mixes like what, 8 seconds of invincibility randomly into a game. Imagine your playing work no degeneracy and the enemy gets the starman. Now your forced to run away. Cool, but not cool.
lmao su much people saying it should be standard smh.. those plats would be so much worse for combos and good edguards, etc, come on how easy is to convince you people
Imagine this. If a player is being wobbled the game sensed this and spawns a star directly on top of the player in question, breaking them free and giving them what is basically free damage
What if instead of a “star man” we put something to recover health on either low or Very low? My issue with Starman (which you did address) is that it can still randomly become an intrusion in the game. -Mess up a combo -benefit one player over another if both players are near center stage etc. Clearly there’s also a risk-reward involved with going for the star man, but the reward is REALLY HIGH, since there’s no where to run away to thanks to how great the stage is for isolation. If the purpose of Star Man is to mitigate camping, then allowing the player being camped to recover health during that time from the stage, could be a better solution. That way, it’s less of a reward for players who are engaging, but may have better means to get to the item from center stage ie. higher movement speed like fox/falcon, moves with more hit stun or higher jumps like Falco). -- I do theorize that having one stage in a platform based fighter will become a very polarizing trait for the cast. However, the fact that we’ve eliminated so many other random elements with this ruleset might actually make up for that. lol
I think healing field in ultimate may work really well since it requires you to stay within the field to gain health, forcing the opponent to approach to try to push you out of the field.
@@mitrimind1027 that's a good idea. I don't think this ruleset works for Ultimate though. We would have to mod in that item for Melee. Ultimate doesn't have an issue with ledge stalling due to the mechanics.
It's an element that for sure would work best in a catastrophically high-risk high reward scenario, tho the game doesn't allow us to tweak the ruleset in that manner sadly. But I'm so happy to see an item legalized at all that I'm down for it tbh.
@@brafy2981 yep. You are right. However, only a few characters can stall with invulnerability, so the logs and clap traps actually help to stop some of that camping. Technically, characters could ledge camp right now lol but it's not a huge part of the meta except for Puff, so I still think that just minimalizing the reward for camping is ok, as opposed to eliminating the threat. But of course, I'm open to any other suggestions. I just think that a starman presents other potential issues.
30 chosen by TO stages with players on all random with hazards and items off, test the players on how much they know the whole game and counterplay. *true test of skill*
I think the skill we value the most in Smash is: someone's ability to quickly adapt and problem solve on the fly given their accumulated game / match up knowledge at that point in the metagame.
why quickly / on the fly? If Leffen comes in against Hbox and has a stronger gameplan and wins 3 games but Hbox was adapting and making each game closer, by this metric, Hbox has demonstrated superiority by the metric you suggest
@@rishi360 I said based on accumulated game and match up knowledge. Leffen was clearly adapting to Hbox's spacing even if his gameplan stayed the same and what I said doesn't discount his gameplan
@@GimR my point is you can win a set without making any adaptations. We aren't measuring amount of adaptation per game, so I don't think you could say it's the most valued skill. What you're getting at, I think, is the "game/MU knowledge" part that we're measuring.
Rishi Your referencing adaptation during a set rather than general adaptation over the life of the game, which seems to be GimR’s idea of adaptation. Base skills: Taking less damage than your opponent, Giving more damage than your opponent, maintaining control of the stage and other methods of limiting your opponent’s options, reacting to a situation in time to either avoid damage, give damage, take a stock, or grab more stage control to continue limiting your opponent’s options- okay see this is where my problem is, this list could probably go on forever. When you play smash for a while, you can see what is or isn’t degenerate gameplay intuitively, but defining what that means overall is another story, and the list of skills that can make someone a strong player is also quite extensive and grows every tournament as the meta is always changing at these early stages.
@@corronchilejano you'd struggle to hit any balls flying at your body if the racket handle was 10ft long. the pro strat at that point would be for your opponent to hit all their balls toward your body.
@@Officialencode I mean sure, but have you handled a tennis racket for any sort of time? A 10 foot one would weigh, being optimistic, about 8 times as much as a normal one, for a woopin' 25 kilos.
Great video! I like how it's not only an analysis of smash, but competitive games in general. I'd love to see this format in competition, and also would love to see more of these alternative formats!
You bring up some incredibly great points! Your comedic ruleset is quite hilariously good at getting them across as well. We need more solidly defined skill values as a community.
The problem with that, and why there is always such controversy on proposed bans, is that it's very unlikely for everyone to unanimously agree on what skills are valued and what aren't
Players have been creating their own ways to plays Smash since before I started playing Melee around 2005. One of the things that got me into Melee was an article in Nintendo Power talking about how they had started playing their own modified rules. One of them was called King of the Hill set in Jungle Japes, last person on the rock when the timer ran out won.
I've always felt that competitive Smash should place greater value in the skills of managing and mitigating chaos. It's the only fighting game that really even enables the concept to be explored. Also, those rules sound pretty dope.
I hate these videos because they have just enough irony that people who take everything serious at face value will conclude that absolutely nothing in this video is real or a valid argument, damn you rishi
@@AlexRoseGames so what's the message of the video? Changing the rules at this point is completely silly, and we just need to deal with any shit ones? Because that's what i got from it.
I am intruigued about watching a tournament with your proposed ruleset. Thanks for your orderly presentation of rational arguments. Great work overall!
What to take away from this video: No: Rishi’s Jungle Jan is the absolute perfect rule set and nothing else can be better. Yes: Think of some new rulesets yourself, be creative, and experiment.
Wow. That was extremely concise and well thought out. I absolutely love your idea for a rishi jungle jam. What other stages could be made into interesting "competitive" formats?! This is the type of revival that melee needs it would be hilarious to see this at tournaments. Also, lots of games have *some* randomness. Look at dota 2, filled with randomness. It's about how that randomness is used in the format. Great video
Hands down the best part of this is the soul shattering confusion due to the closing 4 minutes of the video. I don't think I will ever know peace again until I know whether it's a meme or not, and getting that answer seems about as likely as god coming down from the heavens to compete in a melee tournament with the Rishi's Jungle Jam Ruleset.
Great video! Saw the 15 min timestamp on a video about rules, and expected to be bored, but this is really well done! Kinda wished you had proposed a serious ruleset at the end though.
Definitely gonna try this with some friends, but I honestly can't tell if this is a meme video or not because you make more good points than bad. Pretty sure this is in between serious and not serious.
it may be to take what the melee community seems to value and propose something that they inherently may not like, but there is no logical argument against
Very good video even if I can’t tell if the end is a joke or not. I never realized how problematic the rule sets of smash can be especially because we have all just accepted the way smash tournaments are run and never have questioned if there was a better way to play
It leaves the person trying to get a lead off of the camper too open to be worth it though. Lucas can PK Freeze someone to death from most of the stage positions easily if that were the case, not to mention shadowball, charge shot, Frizz, sun salutation, Nakita, key, canonball, Farrore's wind, Celestial flame, Flare blitz and Quickdraw all can punish it on reaction from a camping position. Those and you can accidentally pick it up instead of attacking if one falls in front of you right before you start an attack unlike crates and capsules in Melee you do a pickup animation and don't attack in Ultimate.
@@yellowlemonPenguin so what do you want, the ability to cancel the animation? because that would be broken as fuck. it'd just completely force people to approach. remember smash 4 cloud and how he could just force you to approach with limit? it'd be like that but even worse.
For ultimate, I've found that going hazards off Green Greens with the killer eye on low is a good solution to camping. It causes players to want to prioritize stage control and placing the eye in the trajectory of where the opponent is forces them to move, but one eye cant cover the whole stage, just an option. And you'll only get more than one eye if your opponent doesn't to stop camping.
I thought the starman thing was insane at first, but now I feel convinced that it's a clever, natural solution to the problems this video's trying to address.
This is actually so galaxy brain, and your approach to ruleset formation is genius. I hope more people keep this in mind for Ultimate going forward, to make rulesets more constructive; maybe with the right ruleset, the viability gap might get even smaller.
I just watched a 15 minute video of someone trying to sell me on using Kongo Jungle as the only legal stage in Melee. ...And yet, I'm less opposed to the idea than I expected. Don't know how you managed that.
I know it's just the normal Kongo Jungle soundtrack, but there's something beautiful about the fact it starts to sound bassboosted when Rishi talks about enabling starman at 13:44.
I've always been frustrated with this game's competitive rulesets, and I never knew why. Until this video. Turns out, my valued skills have always been at odds with the valued skills of the competitive community. My biggest complaint is how competitive players value a glitch, aka wavedashing. (I have other complaints but they're irrelevant) Now I'm able to understand and articulate exactly why: I value mechanics being intuitive more than I value them allowing movement options, which is the opposite of most competitive players. I also learned what the difference between constructive and deconstructive rulesets are, and after a bit of introspection, I've realized why I despise deconstructive rulesets: I've always viewed game developers as legitimate authorities, but gaming communities as merely "arbitrary scrublords" who ban things only if it doesn't help them win. This video helped me realize...the game developers are *just as arbitrary as the players*, and probably the main reason I never noticed that is because I never played against a developer! Tl;dr: Rishi helps longtime casul understand how rules work, and to better understand some of his own mental hang-ups
Very good breakdown of a constructive and a deconstructive ruleset. Didn't expect it to be so on point, I can actually use this since I do game design at university. Well done and thank you!
I don't play melee, but this is a ruleset i can automatically get behind. I see your thoughts and I would agree with them. I'd love to see your take on Ultimate since you seem to already have a good grasp of what's available, but something tells me you already have something in the works. I'll make sure this video spreads. I'm always open to new ideas and I think one of the biggest hurdles of the community is openess. I'm glad you made this video showcasing your thoughts and proposed solutions.
DM Wanderer I wrote out a paragraph replying but deleted it as I felt I came off wrong. Not only do I think he’s serious I also think it’s a solid idea.
I like this because if there's a box on stage then theres another objective besides just hurting the opponent like in brawlhalla when you are keeping someone away from their weapon
I like Rishi's Jungle Jam. Memes aside it's actually pretty sound on paper, and also memes aside more stages with specific item sets could actually viable with some play testing, you could tweak everything a lot more to make things perfect, since you have so many items, and a frequency meter.
We need rishi's jungle jam to become a side event. Although its a perfect ruleset it may be controversial so having it start out as a side event will help it inevitablly become the standard ruleset as it should be
I would love to see more experimental side events like this, especially in Ultimate.
nothing perfect about killing yourr apponent taking the stars waiting out enemyt invincibility and having invincibility advantage to snowball your lead
The perfect was probably a joke, but the star snowballing your lead is part of the game. You should be fighting for stage control
Theres so many possibilities for side events in this game. Jet packs off the start with spirits would be funny.
A Stale Meme A side event at both shine and SPC, it’s growing
"... Also, wobbling is banned. Thanks for watching!" looool
Well a better idea is : wobbling is enabled if only the player uses a more complex variation of it, that is di dependent.
As such you could defend yourself, and the wobbler would need more effort than just chaining a grab and some ez inputs
@@akasakasvault7597 there is no complex variation of wobbling. it's just wobbling. handoffs and other grab-based icies combos arent wobbling.
@@lillieofthevlly thats why I call it variation : different, but following the same idea of an infinite
@@akasakasvault7597 You can do grab combos with ice climbers other than wobbling, those arent banned
@@lorenzomcbo7229 gran?
If Rishi's Jungle Jam was the standard, I'd play Melee again
I'd love to see it at the next summit in some fashion
thank you very cool
Pin this comment!! 😆
*Nair loops has been added to melee*
Esam approves fellas, let's make it happen
Rishi's jungle jam needs to be a side event at next summit
exactly what I was thinking
Make it so popular that it becomes a normal thing
Its a side event for Kongo Saga
I'd watch it
Kekela Faster!
I remember when m2k suggested pokeballs on very low as a solution to camping
Lol thats wack
There should just be a time limit for not interacting with the other player before you have to auto stock yourself.
I think minimal items is actually a great idea
@@davidbass3178 setting that time limit is tough because the number is arbitrary. Not saying I'm in favour of items, but their advantage is it gives the player being stalled a tool which they actively use rather than invoking an arbitrary number.
Jason's logic tends to be silly.
They had us in the first half I'm not gonna lie
I'm not gonna lie
@@SheeshFr ;)
@@bustystussy3687 ;0
... Dammit, I was hoping for a serious video just so I could hear about more drama, but the presentation would make such a good troll I'm just gonna like the video anyway. Won't subscribe though definitely won't comment
Wait... He's trolling? Rishi's jungle jam legitimately looks like a solid idea lol
Your exponentially increasing love affair with DK will either kill Melee or transcend it into the next dimension.
EvilApple567 dk only all items ice climber’s iceberg/mountain stage
Smash 28XX: DK and only DK is the sole character allowed, and fully charged punch is the only move allowed
I am genuinely confused about Rishi's Jungle Jam because I feel like it is a meme, but I would totally be down if this became a basis for a new ruleset
Adam Skvorak it's only seemingly a meme because of how different this ruleset is in comparison to the meta
It feels like a meme because it's Donkey Kong. You're down anyway because it's a better ruleset than any current Smash ones.
@@twoloavesofbread I feel thus ruleset is a lot more fun and three sticks is a nice change since it means there's no point to stall if your in the lead. In addition the Starman is so random and jank that it easily breaks stalling as even if you don't just grab ledge you can just spam moves and kick them ofg
Video essays like these are the pride of the Smash community, as it lays out all arguments clearly and concisely without coming off as condescending. Thank you, Rishi. I hope to see Rishi's Jungle Jam become the new Melee standard
I don't know. I think it would make an interesting side event, but my biggest problem is that there is only one stage. Personally, that would make it less fun to watch for long periods of time
Side event only please.
keenfrizzle This should be top comment
@@griffinkimball2454 All tennis matches are played on the same court layout. All basketball games are played on the same court layout. All hockey games, soccer games, baseball... bowling....lacross......cricket.....etc...etc.
@@WooperTrooper4 And I don't really enjoy watching Basketball, Tennis, Soccer, baseball, or really any other sport.
No joke, this is actually one of the best ruleset ideas I’ve ever. Rishi is a hidden genius and Rishi’s Jungle Jam should be played at Melee Friendlies, maybe even at actual tournaments if it gains enough traction.
Except it isn't.
Gettings items only benefits the lucky.
In mid combo, a star can literally spawn on your opponent and they kill you because of RNG.
This is a joke of a suggestion.
Throw away the CRT's.
Pop on a modded melee with fixed stages.
Ban wobbling.
Ledge grab limit.
That would literally fix all Major issues with Melee.
The one thing people have to do is get used to a delay in movement. (which sucks)
Or keep the CRT's.
If people can band together to bring CRT's. People could band together to bring copies of the fixed melee on a disc.
NaJk93 well you’re fun to be with at a party arent you
NaJk93 there’s a ton of luck/probability based shit in smash, misfires, mr. game and watch 9s, stitchfaces, the whole lot. The whole point is to literally make that happen as little as possible
I actually agree with NaJK94 the whole point is to be as competitive as possible
"Street Fighter values footsies" *shows SFV*
... Hey wait a minute.
Chips Light sfv values footsies just as much as sf4 if not more.
@@christheophilus7154 I can't say for sure if it does now, but I think he's referring to the insanely aggressive playstyle early seasons were infamous for
SIY yeah seasons 1 and 2 of sfv were very focused on aggression. however, the game still primarily played on the ground and prioritized grounded fundamentals. if you managed to get your hit, you could definitely carry it all the way to a win off 50/50s but you still needed to get that hit.
a lot of the top tiers in sfiv would basically bypass neutral and “footsies” all together. akuma would just jump and throw fireballs and there wasn’t much characters could do, yun would just divekick all game and it was hard to counter because a neutral jump from yun was a mixup. many characters could just say “fuck neutral” and do a risky approach option and not have to worry because they could just fadc if their shit got blocked.
i think sfiv is leagues better than sfv but the way people try to frame it as the pinnacle of footsies isn’t 100% true
time to find out if this is a serious video or a DK with four shines kinda video, I'm excited
both
he wants us to mod the hell out of the game
What is DK with four shines? I couldn't find anything looking it up on UA-cam.
@@HighDeafRadio Watch Rishi's (I think) last video, called "Can DK win a major" or some such
@@The_SOB_II I see that video on my sidebar but I'm too intimidated to click it.
"If you have difficulty winning in your main game against players who use it as a side hustle" dude why is nobody talking about this? So good.
What did he mean by that? I didn't understand it lol
@@ernestocuengil1366 imagine you pour your heart and soul into a game and then somebody who doesnt really care about the game comes along and kicks your ass
@@citrusblast4372 then you clearly aren't very good at the game, this is why tournaments are bo3 or even bo5 so worse players can't just "get lucky" and beat a better player
@@Rislear then why dont you clarify what he meant
@@citrusblast4372 I don't know, he might have meant exactly what you said, or he might have been making a joke or an exaggeration. Even if he did mean that, I was just arguing against the possibility of it happening.
I think the saddest part about this video is that it took a legitimized player (with tournament performance) for this video to be paid attention to. Many older players, especially those of us from the SmashBoards 2004 days, have felt this way for a long time, even putting it into words on occasion, but no one listened because for some reason, theorycrafters aren't "legit" unless they attend tournaments and place high. Finally, Rishi addressed this and put the work into making this video. Most of this needed to be said (and was said) 10 years ago.
funny that you mention it. My brother was in competitive Smash back in 09' and he got mega shamed for suggesting practicing against cpus to work on comboes - i.e. punish game. Now pretty much everyone does it. Even before 20XX came around people were practicing punish game on CPUs. But not that long ago. My brother hasn't touched any Smash since 2010 now that I think about it smh
@Gianluca Tartaro Why? This isn't a troll. It's a legitimate ruleset. And it sounds super fun, balanced and spectacular. I would come back to competitive Melee if this were the ruleset.
Tbh the best way is to create a side event e.g. vanilla compatible jungle jam or even an agreed upon modded version. and see if and how it's integrated into the main game as it gains popularity
@@stylishgaby it is absolutely a troll u dipshit lmao
@@sptflcrw8583 no, you are wrong, no one here is a troll, especially not the guy you're replying to. Everyone here is completely serious, both rishi and the commenters.
“Haha, that’s a funny joke ruleset, can’t wait to see the real thi... oh shoot”
When you started the Rishi's Jungle Jam part I laughed at the initial listing of elements, thinking it was a joke. But then it all made so much sense, and it should be the standard for sure.
lmao stop
@@sptflcrw8583 why shouldn't it be the standard?
@@StreamWatcher-kj7cb the starman is a solution to camping, but still mixes like what, 8 seconds of invincibility randomly into a game. Imagine your playing work no degeneracy and the enemy gets the starman. Now your forced to run away. Cool, but not cool.
lmao su much people saying it should be standard smh.. those plats would be so much worse for combos and good edguards, etc, come on how easy is to convince you people
All you had to say to get me to play Rishi's Jungle Jam was "wobbling is banned"
"icies return to Alaska"
What are complaining about, Wobbling has counterplay
Don't get grabbed
nice one @@azophi
Imagine this.
If a player is being wobbled the game sensed this and spawns a star directly on top of the player in question, breaking them free and giving them what is basically free damage
@@silver5798 or you could
I don't know
Just ban wobbling or play a game that doesn't have wobbling at all, like Ultimate
why tf is this ruleset cool
Cause we are so used to use the same ruleset idea, this idea Is something fresh And have tons of potential
What if instead of a “star man” we put something to recover health on either low or Very low?
My issue with Starman (which you did address) is that it can still randomly become an intrusion in the game.
-Mess up a combo
-benefit one player over another if both players are near center stage
etc.
Clearly there’s also a risk-reward involved with going for the star man, but the reward is REALLY HIGH, since there’s no where to run away to thanks to how great the stage is for isolation. If the purpose of Star Man is to mitigate camping, then allowing the player being camped to recover health during that time from the stage, could be a better solution. That way, it’s less of a reward for players who are engaging, but may have better means to get to the item from center stage ie. higher movement speed like fox/falcon, moves with more hit stun or higher jumps like Falco).
--
I do theorize that having one stage in a platform based fighter will become a very polarizing trait for the cast. However, the fact that we’ve eliminated so many other random elements with this ruleset might actually make up for that. lol
I think healing field in ultimate may work really well since it requires you to stay within the field to gain health, forcing the opponent to approach to try to push you out of the field.
@@mitrimind1027 that's a good idea. I don't think this ruleset works for Ultimate though. We would have to mod in that item for Melee. Ultimate doesn't have an issue with ledge stalling due to the mechanics.
It's an element that for sure would work best in a catastrophically high-risk high reward scenario, tho the game doesn't allow us to tweak the ruleset in that manner sadly. But I'm so happy to see an item legalized at all that I'm down for it tbh.
If the item only heals, a stock lead means free camping
@@brafy2981 yep. You are right. However, only a few characters can stall with invulnerability, so the logs and clap traps actually help to stop some of that camping.
Technically, characters could ledge camp right now lol but it's not a huge part of the meta except for Puff, so I still think that just minimalizing the reward for camping is ok, as opposed to eliminating the threat.
But of course, I'm open to any other suggestions.
I just think that a starman presents other potential issues.
Joke or not, let's enforce this. The new era of Kongo Jungle is finally here.
Yeah i agree, i shouldnt be forced to shower before going to a smah tourney
love that album. shower so the flies don't come ;)
Ah, classic rishi. An elaborate 15 minute setup to a great meme
I don't think he's trolling
I'm pretty sure it's not a meme
He’s not trolling, but it was still a great meme
@@evanpotter860 he is trolling, stop it lmao
you kidding me! Rishi 's Jungle Jam is the ruleset Melee needs right now. This is NOT a meme!!1
Everybody Gangsta 'til you realize he was serious about Jungle Jam
*doesn't propose a new Ultimate rule set but only a melee one*
Me: dang it, I guess we're on our own
You can recreate the Jungle Jam in Ultimate
@@meyes5671 yeah we can but I dont think it would work as well for Ultimate
1 stock 5 minutes healing spirit great cave offensive feels good
30 chosen by TO stages with players on all random with hazards and items off, test the players on how much they know the whole game and counterplay. *true test of skill*
I think the skill we value the most in
Smash is: someone's ability to quickly adapt and problem solve on the fly given their accumulated game / match up knowledge at that point in the metagame.
why quickly / on the fly? If Leffen comes in against Hbox and has a stronger gameplan and wins 3 games but Hbox was adapting and making each game closer, by this metric, Hbox has demonstrated superiority by the metric you suggest
@@rishi360 I said based on accumulated game and match up knowledge. Leffen was clearly adapting to Hbox's spacing even if his gameplan stayed the same and what I said doesn't discount his gameplan
@@GimR my point is you can win a set without making any adaptations. We aren't measuring amount of adaptation per game, so I don't think you could say it's the most valued skill. What you're getting at, I think, is the "game/MU knowledge" part that we're measuring.
@@rishi360 I guess what each of us means by adaptation is important here
Rishi Your referencing adaptation during a set rather than general adaptation over the life of the game, which seems to be GimR’s idea of adaptation. Base skills: Taking less damage than your opponent, Giving more damage than your opponent, maintaining control of the stage and other methods of limiting your opponent’s options, reacting to a situation in time to either avoid damage, give damage, take a stock, or grab more stage control to continue limiting your opponent’s options- okay see this is where my problem is, this list could probably go on forever. When you play smash for a while, you can see what is or isn’t degenerate gameplay intuitively, but defining what that means overall is another story, and the list of skills that can make someone a strong player is also quite extensive and grows every tournament as the meta is always changing at these early stages.
I feel like the entire video was one long build up to “ban wobbling”
Wobbling has counterplay, though
Don't get grabbed
"I encourage you to try playing degenerately"
Ah, more cultured words have ne'er been spoke.
I disagree.. a 10ft tennis racket would require skill.. that is all
*strength
@@corronchilejano you'd struggle to hit any balls flying at your body if the racket handle was 10ft long. the pro strat at that point would be for your opponent to hit all their balls toward your body.
@@Officialencode I mean sure, but have you handled a tennis racket for any sort of time? A 10 foot one would weigh, being optimistic, about 8 times as much as a normal one, for a woopin' 25 kilos.
I can't tell if you're joking about marth or being serious, because both are sarcastically true.
It would require skill, but a different skill
Rishi’s Jungle Jam is amazing
I’m never playing the standard rule set again
Honestly that dude solving the rubics cube and wobbling without looking is pretty impressive.
Great video! I like how it's not only an analysis of smash, but competitive games in general. I'd love to see this format in competition, and also would love to see more of these alternative formats!
this felt like a video I'd watch in school but about something I actually care about, very cool
You bring up some incredibly great points!
Your comedic ruleset is quite hilariously good at getting them across as well. We need more solidly defined skill values as a community.
The problem with that, and why there is always such controversy on proposed bans, is that it's very unlikely for everyone to unanimously agree on what skills are valued and what aren't
I am now a Rishi's Jungle Jammer.
This video is truly fascinating and I've learned so much, thank you
That ending had me in tears. Caught me the hell off guard. You, sir, are a legend.
Wobbling isn't that bad, it has counterplay
Don't get grabbed
plus you can have that banger of a dk rap playing at every tournament
Hiram Plaza That’s the real reason. No other excuse is necessary.
At the very least, I'm looking forward to playing RJJ with my friends at smashfests
All that water in Kongo Jungle will encourage players to finally shower for once.
Great vid, Rishi. Very informative. And your comedic timing is phenomenal lol
Players have been creating their own ways to plays Smash since before I started playing Melee around 2005. One of the things that got me into Melee was an article in Nintendo Power talking about how they had started playing their own modified rules. One of them was called King of the Hill set in Jungle Japes, last person on the rock when the timer ran out won.
This is actually fantastic. I’m just an ultimate scrub but this definitely gets me thinking about possibilities for local friendlies at the very least
This.
I really hope this Video blows up!
Very informative and very interesting.
Extremely well thought out!
Dude come up with more of these, this is a genius idea.
I've always felt that competitive Smash should place greater value in the skills of managing and mitigating chaos. It's the only fighting game that really even enables the concept to be explored.
Also, those rules sound pretty dope.
Rishi's Jungle Jam is the apex of ruleset memes: funky enough to make you laugh, but logical enough to make you double-take.
I actually like the idea of stage specific rulesets that may incorporate certain items to vary up competitive play in side events. Please do more.
this is genuinely one of the most intuitive and efficient solutions i've seen to a lot of problems melee has historically had over its entire lifetime
I hate these videos because they have just enough irony that people who take everything serious at face value will conclude that absolutely nothing in this video is real or a valid argument, damn you rishi
the whole video is satire, it's a joke about hax's video, if you want real philosophy of esports go watch that instead of an obvious meme
@@AlexRoseGames so what's the message of the video? Changing the rules at this point is completely silly, and we just need to deal with any shit ones? Because that's what i got from it.
This might be the best smash video I've ever watched.
The ending to this video gave me such intense emotional whiplash that I actually started fucking crying. What a roller coaster this is.
I'm taking this seriously...
I like it
I'm down for this new ruleset. It's varied and it really does put the emphasis on skills we value!
It starts to be scary how insanely genius Rishi is 😳 he covered every aspect and any counter argument. It’s too good
I am intruigued about watching a tournament with your proposed ruleset.
Thanks for your orderly presentation of rational arguments. Great work overall!
ua-cam.com/video/Y2cs5C35Fz8/v-deo.html
What to take away from this video:
No: Rishi’s Jungle Jan is the absolute perfect rule set and nothing else can be better.
Yes: Think of some new rulesets yourself, be creative, and experiment.
10:20 was Salem drunk making this tweet?
Wow. That was extremely concise and well thought out. I absolutely love your idea for a rishi jungle jam. What other stages could be made into interesting "competitive" formats?! This is the type of revival that melee needs it would be hilarious to see this at tournaments.
Also, lots of games have *some* randomness. Look at dota 2, filled with randomness. It's about how that randomness is used in the format. Great video
You're the first person I've seen address the issue of wobbling ignoring the two sided interaction of DI, thank you
Was kinda hoping you were gonna offer a solution to Ultimate after you talked about new ways to control rules ngl
Wow, this Donkey Kong UA-camr plays Smash?
Hands down the best part of this is the soul shattering confusion due to the closing 4 minutes of the video. I don't think I will ever know peace again until I know whether it's a meme or not, and getting that answer seems about as likely as god coming down from the heavens to compete in a melee tournament with the Rishi's Jungle Jam Ruleset.
Rishi’s Jungle Jam actually looks super fun. Can’t wait to test it out with some friends
Funny thing is, I'd probably start watching Melee again if people pushed the meta of Jungle Jam.
This guy is the most beautiful troll. He makes all these great points about the game and then goes full Rishi’s jungle jam on us
the "great points" were a thinly veiled parody of hax's video, and jokes about esports commentators, he wasn't serious about anything
This guy made an entire coherent tesis with the only purpouse of baning woobling
And I couldn't agree more
Haha love the foreshadowing of Rishi's Jungle Jam with the DK pick at 0:35
Great video! Saw the 15 min timestamp on a video about rules, and expected to be bored, but this is really well done!
Kinda wished you had proposed a serious ruleset at the end though.
Rishi's Jungle Jam could work though. We'll need to run it as a side event.
Definitely gonna try this with some friends, but I honestly can't tell if this is a meme video or not because you make more good points than bad. Pretty sure this is in between serious and not serious.
it may be to take what the melee community seems to value and propose something that they inherently may not like, but there is no logical argument against
This is my favorite melee video of all time
Rishi’s jungle jam just looked so fun to watch
People who thought this video was a joke miss the point of the whole damn video
no ur just a fucking idiot lmao
Actually the best shitpost I've ever seen
Very good video even if I can’t tell if the end is a joke or not. I never realized how problematic the rule sets of smash can be especially because we have all just accepted the way smash tournaments are run and never have questioned if there was a better way to play
What a phenomenal video. I hope the ultimate community can use the tools we have to make a ruleset as good as jungle jam.
You had me for the entire video. Like, I thought you were serious up until I heard Starman.
He was serious the whole video wtf
Special flag kinda works too instead of star man for ultimate.
It leaves the person trying to get a lead off of the camper too open to be worth it though. Lucas can PK Freeze someone to death from most of the stage positions easily if that were the case, not to mention shadowball, charge shot, Frizz, sun salutation, Nakita, key, canonball, Farrore's wind, Celestial flame, Flare blitz and Quickdraw all can punish it on reaction from a camping position. Those and you can accidentally pick it up instead of attacking if one falls in front of you right before you start an attack unlike crates and capsules in Melee you do a pickup animation and don't attack in Ultimate.
@@yellowlemonPenguin so what do you want, the ability to cancel the animation? because that would be broken as fuck. it'd just completely force people to approach. remember smash 4 cloud and how he could just force you to approach with limit? it'd be like that but even worse.
Somebody in the comments said healing fields would be better
@@sptflcrw8583 no I'm just saying it's not a better item option for the mode, I never said it needed to change, that was your thought.
@@what_did_you_expect I would agree but camping off a stock lead would still be possible in that case.
For ultimate, I've found that going hazards off Green Greens with the killer eye on low is a good solution to camping. It causes players to want to prioritize stage control and placing the eye in the trajectory of where the opponent is forces them to move, but one eye cant cover the whole stage, just an option. And you'll only get more than one eye if your opponent doesn't to stop camping.
Wow i found your definition of competitive games to be fascinating. Really well done :)
I thought the starman thing was insane at first, but now I feel convinced that it's a clever, natural solution to the problems this video's trying to address.
The problem is if you just get one by sheer luck it's a free stock.
Why this ruleset kinda fire tho
This is actually so galaxy brain, and your approach to ruleset formation is genius. I hope more people keep this in mind for Ultimate going forward, to make rulesets more constructive; maybe with the right ruleset, the viability gap might get even smaller.
This has to be one of the greatest smash videos of all time..
I just watched a 15 minute video of someone trying to sell me on using Kongo Jungle as the only legal stage in Melee.
...And yet, I'm less opposed to the idea than I expected. Don't know how you managed that.
Can you come up with similar rulesets for Ultimate?
this exact ruleset works in ultimate.
Ultimate has less mechanical issues tho. Ledge stalling and air stalling simply don’t exist in ultimate, invalidating the need for this rulesey
Rishi's Jungle Jam sounds like a very great way to solve the Camping Problem, I applaud you Rishi
I know it's just the normal Kongo Jungle soundtrack, but there's something beautiful about the fact it starts to sound bassboosted when Rishi talks about enabling starman at 13:44.
(VERY LOW)
I've always been frustrated with this game's competitive rulesets, and I never knew why. Until this video.
Turns out, my valued skills have always been at odds with the valued skills of the competitive community. My biggest complaint is how competitive players value a glitch, aka wavedashing. (I have other complaints but they're irrelevant) Now I'm able to understand and articulate exactly why: I value mechanics being intuitive more than I value them allowing movement options, which is the opposite of most competitive players.
I also learned what the difference between constructive and deconstructive rulesets are, and after a bit of introspection, I've realized why I despise deconstructive rulesets: I've always viewed game developers as legitimate authorities, but gaming communities as merely "arbitrary scrublords" who ban things only if it doesn't help them win. This video helped me realize...the game developers are *just as arbitrary as the players*, and probably the main reason I never noticed that is because I never played against a developer!
Tl;dr: Rishi helps longtime casul understand how rules work, and to better understand some of his own mental hang-ups
wavedashing isn't a glitch
Very good breakdown of a constructive and a deconstructive ruleset. Didn't expect it to be so on point, I can actually use this since I do game design at university. Well done and thank you!
I don't play melee, but this is a ruleset i can automatically get behind. I see your thoughts and I would agree with them.
I'd love to see your take on Ultimate since you seem to already have a good grasp of what's available, but something tells me you already have something in the works. I'll make sure this video spreads.
I'm always open to new ideas and I think one of the biggest hurdles of the community is openess. I'm glad you made this video showcasing your thoughts and proposed solutions.
Can't tell if the proposed rule set is serious or a meme.
DM Wanderer I wrote out a paragraph replying but deleted it as I felt I came off wrong. Not only do I think he’s serious I also think it’s a solid idea.
its a meme
That taunt rule you mentioned sounds really bad, have you seen how long YL taunt is?
I like this because if there's a box on stage then theres another objective besides just hurting the opponent like in brawlhalla when you are keeping someone away from their weapon
I like Rishi's Jungle Jam. Memes aside it's actually pretty sound on paper, and also memes aside more stages with specific item sets could actually viable with some play testing, you could tweak everything a lot more to make things perfect, since you have so many items, and a frequency meter.
Classic salem, Always putting his foot in his mouth. Smh
He's just not nearly as intelligent as he believes he is.
I remember when Salem was awesome for winning Brawl at Apex, I’m ashamed to have been a fan of him lol
I don't think this video could be any better.
You had us in the first half, not gonna lie. 😭