As a retired software developer who wrote a lot of multi-threaded, realtime, graphical interactive code in a scientific/engineering setting in the last decade of my career, I can say computations performed in sequence in an application are not necessarily interdependent. Yes, some calculations are, but not all. Even when stages of a pipeline must be performed in sequence, sometimes they can be rewritten so calculations are spread across multiple cores, where multiple threads work on the same data at the same time in an interleaved fashion. Rewriting code to take advantage of multiple cores is not necessarily "hard", but it does require additional attention to detail and more careful discipline when coding. My experience suggests the performance gained is worth the complexity added. If I weren't so poor of health and lacking energy these days, I'd offer my services to LR to help optimize XP. Getting old is a pain in the posterior, but it beats the alternative.
Thanks Michael. You confirmed that the CPU is the bottleneck on 3+ screens, not the GPU. And this is all because XP12 is basically designed for single thread processing. What is the likelihood that Austin will take your advice and recode the program to allow for multi-thread processing, which would greatly improve FPS on multi-screen setups?
You can not do anything in this regard, anyway. The profiler is just for the developers, 3rd-party developers and people who like digging into such stuff. : )
LR should license Vulkcan/DLSS. After 20 yrs of XP I had to go to MFS for multi-monitor smoothness at high settings in 1440p. This is because they use DLSS. Not an expert but I don't see any other option for LR. I will come back if they improve perf in XP12 for multimon AirManager users. Thanks for all your great videos over the years, Michael. I still buy LR/Dev products even tho not currently using just so they survive. Good Luck.
Hi Michael, thank you for the video. Could you please make a video explaining how to set up the settings in order run the different monitor frames in parallel?
great vids Michael, really appreciate them. X 11 Mac. I think the regular 40-46 inch screen is best with a 32 inch on both sides ,cause the 49 ultra wides are too short...do you think an M1 Mac with 16gigs can handle that?
my observation is not next monitor kills fps BUT field of view (only separate monitor ad a little penalty) that means one monitor 135 degree FOV will have similar fps vs 3x45degree FOV. (I have 5x 32" monitors setup with 2PC {5800x3d & 3500x} and I have ~30fps medium settings)
LR should be looking forward to a version of XP, whether some later version of 12 or v13 with multi core CPU optimization for several reasons: 1) CPU mandatory processes should be completed faster and 2) since CPUs are much less expensive, draw less power, and are smaller than high-end GPUs, tasks that can be shifted from the GPU could be “returned” to the CPU. This would make buying or building a PC more accessible to more people. A prime example of improvement from a multi core CPU was when Photoshop went from single to multi.
Thanks for the interesting video! Of course, there is another important aspect, the GPU. Most GPUs (depending on the settings and most of all the resolution of the monitors) will quickly bottleneck multi-monitor setups. Anyway, more multithreading would be great (though I believe XP already does more multithreading, than most people think). But I assume there is a reason why most (all?) sims/games still mainly depend on single-core speed of the CPU and not number of cores.
True, but a high end GPU isn't currently the bottleneck. So the framerate should go up if you have a high end GPU, but you are correct that it will most likely become the limitation and you won't achieve triple the framerate even if you did make the rendering for each screen parallel. If they could utilise 3 GPUs in one system though? That would alleviate the problem... of course then maybe your power supply may become the bottleneck. The other thing to bare in mind is that the more CPU cores you use, the more power the CPU will draw , and the hotter it will get. Usually this results in the CPU running at slower clock speeds so it stays within its power and thermal limits. For example on single threaded tasks my Ryzen 5950X runs at 5.05Ghz. But when all 32 threads are loaded it only runs at 4.5Ghz when I have PBO enabled. At stock power limits it only runs at 3.8Ghz for all-core workloads.
@@flightsimdeskuk Yes, agreed,all very valid points! Also, the better XP will get optimised, the more people will complain it makes the CPU run too hot... : ) Btw, with XP12 I can quite easily make my 3090 the bottleneck on a single 4k screen. But yes, 4k is more pixels than 3 times fullHD for example, so that GPU could probably handle it.
and I still don't get it why on separate PC can work together 3 instants of xplane but you can't run 3 times xplane on single PC (with so many cores should not be problem) with even communication between each instance by network protocol. In win11 you can force to run individual program on different GPU so multiGPU system will can come back (without SLI/Crossfire). (xplane don't have massive fps so pcie3.0 x4 should be enough for single GPU)
and I tested and it's working as I say. But you can't run on the one GPU because difference in fps between instances are ridiculous. When you run on different GPUs then its ok. To run on different GPU you must set primary display to that one powered by specyfic GPU than start xplane, and change primary display with every run/copy of xplane.
I took your advice and got i7 12700k rtx 3080 and xplanes 12 stutter every couple seconds.is there a fix to that because high end pc can't run this game smoothly on one screen.
Very interesting. So because I'm running 3 screens (17" touch for air manager instruments, 1 gns530 and my main, a 4k 50 inch tv.) that is why I only get 40fps or so with an rtx 3090ti. Kind of makes sense. Thanks for the video.
That's not what he's saying. He is saying this is what happens when you add additional xplane visuals screens. The GNS530 and air manager panels are not xplane visuals. They will of course impact framerate, but not to the same level as rendering 3D scenery and 3D cockpit
Id be curious to know what happens if you turn your two panel displays off.. What's your fps? If it shoots up to like 70-80, then x plane is really not optimizing cores.
@@Bren39 I'm at work now for 8 months away from home and sim but I've learned due to using a 4k tv instead of a pc monitor that I am likely bottle necked at my tv.
hello can someone please help me. im currently running Xplane12 on my pc... processor i5 8400, 64 bit. i can run the game Maxed out grahic scenery and it Runs Smooth as butter, But once i plug in my HTC vive VR..., the game plays really laggy.... and i have to turn everything down. What can i do to solve this? i love flying in VR.
I just make quick test on ONE PC windows11 (xplanes run as administrator). I install 2 instances of xplane12 in master/visual machine(each powered 1 monitor) i set different ports and manually set IP and ports address, in Master/visual machine. (IP is everywhere the same but ports not) And when two instances work I have 80fps and when I close "visual machine" and run 2 monitors i have 45fps. CPU use go from 25% (one instance of xplane) to 50% (two instance of xplane) (5800x3d) but lag between monitors is way worse than on 2 separate PC.
one and another instance of xplane have different fps and depends when was mouse click last there bigger fps. massive lag was because 15fps was on second instance but on first 80fps
I added second GPU to PC and I can force video player/chrome/AirManager to run on second GPU but when I tell windows11 to run second instance of xplane on second GPU don't work. (second monitor pluged to second GPU) WHY!!!
I made it. first set second monitor (powered by second gpu) as primary monitor then run one instance of xplane. then when it's running go change again main monitor to powered by first GPU then run second instance of xplane. that will make each CPU usage x2 and both GPU are used. and remember to not drag popout avionics to monitor powered by another gpu.
Seems like you guys need to work on parallelizing your tasks, obviously. This is not a huge deal in more modern code frameworks, but I wonder if what is holding you back is that you’re using an older, lower level codebase that doesn’t multithread easily. I can only guess without looking at the source. Meanwhile, I hope XP12 soon supports Apple’s DLSS framework MetalFX. Seems like an easy thing to add so I wonder why it hasn’t been done.
There’s not a lot of older code in X-Plane 12 as most of the code has been rewritten while they have implemented the Vulkan and Metal graphical solutions.
if you mount all screen on flat wall then distortions don't apply (and you set FOV the same as you have from your eyes to edges of outside screens). the fps will drop because FOV is heavy cpu time killer. (less vs 3 seperate monitors)
I am using AMD's Eyefinty and am getting the same results. My frame rates are significantly reduced but as long as I can maintain ~30fps, it's doable. My philosophy is this: in real life I don't fly with "blinders" (unless IFR training/practice) and therefore 3 screens are essential. I am presently working with 3 x 32" (5760x1080) curved monitors and could not enjoy XP with less. IMHO
MSFS is 100000% worse. I drop 30-40 fps when you just pop out a screen. At least you are ahead of the game there. No idea why they can’t figure it out like Xplane has. As an Airmanager user a 2nd or 3rd screen is a must for me. With these new CPU’s I can’t imagine how awesome these sims could be if they took full affect of their power. Thanks
No offense. Not true. 20 yrs XP user. I now use MFS for 3 wide/touchscreen multimon/AM use. Using 1440p 3 32" LG IPS Nano. 1 ASUS touchscreen, 2080ti/i9. Very smooth. The secret for perf is High settings and DLSS in performance mode. I use WT G5000/Longitude with 3 GTC and pfd/mfd popouts on touchscreen with AM. Very smooth. Using Pop out Manager addon allows for G5000 3 gtc use in Air Manager, as well as pfd/mfd. I will use XP again if they fix multimon perf issues and get rid of silly puddles. Good Luck. LR will have to license DLSS for Vulcan to remain competitive.
Just get a big curved ultrawide monitor and save money from not needing to buy additional monitors and double your frame rates. It's a pretty simple excellent solution.
@@RobertoGodfrey It is nothing to do with the quality of the monitor. The wider the field of view being rendered, the more distortion there is at the edges. Objects will look more stretched out and bigger on the edges than they do in the centre. It's like viewing the world through a wide-angle lens. Russ Barlow did an excellent video demonstrating this. Three 50 degree screens looks massively better than one 150 degree screen.
@@flightsimdeskuk it depends on your FOV settings, a wider FOV results in distortions at the edge as the picture is stretched out. That setting is independent of the monitors resolution.
CPU Manufacturers: MORE CORES! PC Game Devs: SINGLE CORE ONLY! seriously, there ain't no damned excuse why these newer games aren't optimized to run on multicore CPUs. pretty much no one has less than 4 but the devs still want to write for 1, maybe 2.
X-Plane is multicore, but flight simulators are special in this regards. You can easily unload certain tasks to other cores and others not so much in order to keep integrity of the world you create. Microsoft has the same problem with MSFS2020.
@@samueldickes that isn't the point- I know about CPU affinity, but it's 2023 and devs are still writing code as if we have 1 or 2 cores. look into serious projects like commercial-grade rendering and other scientific research and they are using EVERYTHING a CPU has, which is why it's common to see dual CPU setups with 128 cores and every one being used.
@@sigbauer9782 The rendering I assume you are refering too is a very different story. Current realtime 3d graphics of games/sims work in a very different way. Do you really think, the devs wouldn't use every reasonal possibility to make their rendering as fast as possible?
As a retired software developer who wrote a lot of multi-threaded, realtime, graphical interactive code in a scientific/engineering setting in the last decade of my career, I can say computations performed in sequence in an application are not necessarily interdependent. Yes, some calculations are, but not all. Even when stages of a pipeline must be performed in sequence, sometimes they can be rewritten so calculations are spread across multiple cores, where multiple threads work on the same data at the same time in an interleaved fashion. Rewriting code to take advantage of multiple cores is not necessarily "hard", but it does require additional attention to detail and more careful discipline when coding. My experience suggests the performance gained is worth the complexity added.
If I weren't so poor of health and lacking energy these days, I'd offer my services to LR to help optimize XP. Getting old is a pain in the posterior, but it beats the alternative.
Thank you for this great presentation 🙏
Thanks Michael. You confirmed that the CPU is the bottleneck on 3+ screens, not the GPU. And this is all because XP12 is basically designed for single thread processing. What is the likelihood that Austin will take your advice and recode the program to allow for multi-thread processing, which would greatly improve FPS on multi-screen setups?
This is very interesting! But way too complicated for the average user. X-Plane needs to fix this so we don't have to do all that.
You can not do anything in this regard, anyway. The profiler is just for the developers, 3rd-party developers and people who like digging into such stuff. : )
Very interesting 👌
LR should license Vulkcan/DLSS. After 20 yrs of XP I had to go to MFS for multi-monitor smoothness at high settings in 1440p. This is because they use DLSS. Not an expert but I don't see any other option for LR. I will come back if they improve perf in XP12 for multimon AirManager users. Thanks for all your great videos over the years, Michael. I still buy LR/Dev products even tho not currently using just so they survive. Good Luck.
Hi Michael, thank you for the video. Could you please make a video explaining how to set up the settings in order run the different monitor frames in parallel?
great vids Michael, really appreciate them. X 11 Mac. I think the regular 40-46 inch screen is best with a 32 inch on both sides ,cause the 49 ultra wides are too short...do you think an M1 Mac
with 16gigs can handle that?
my observation is not next monitor kills fps BUT field of view (only separate monitor ad a little penalty) that means one monitor 135 degree FOV will have similar fps vs 3x45degree FOV. (I have 5x 32" monitors setup with 2PC {5800x3d & 3500x} and I have ~30fps medium settings)
LR should be looking forward to a version of XP, whether some later version of 12 or v13 with multi core CPU optimization for several reasons: 1) CPU mandatory processes should be completed faster and 2) since CPUs are much less expensive, draw less power, and are smaller than high-end GPUs, tasks that can be shifted from the GPU could be “returned” to the CPU. This would make buying or building a PC more accessible to more people. A prime example of improvement from a multi core CPU was when Photoshop went from single to multi.
Thanks for the interesting video! Of course, there is another important aspect, the GPU. Most GPUs (depending on the settings and most of all the resolution of the monitors) will quickly bottleneck multi-monitor setups.
Anyway, more multithreading would be great (though I believe XP already does more multithreading, than most people think).
But I assume there is a reason why most (all?) sims/games still mainly depend on single-core speed of the CPU and not number of cores.
True, but a high end GPU isn't currently the bottleneck. So the framerate should go up if you have a high end GPU, but you are correct that it will most likely become the limitation and you won't achieve triple the framerate even if you did make the rendering for each screen parallel. If they could utilise 3 GPUs in one system though? That would alleviate the problem... of course then maybe your power supply may become the bottleneck. The other thing to bare in mind is that the more CPU cores you use, the more power the CPU will draw , and the hotter it will get. Usually this results in the CPU running at slower clock speeds so it stays within its power and thermal limits. For example on single threaded tasks my Ryzen 5950X runs at 5.05Ghz. But when all 32 threads are loaded it only runs at 4.5Ghz when I have PBO enabled. At stock power limits it only runs at 3.8Ghz for all-core workloads.
@@flightsimdeskuk Yes, agreed,all very valid points! Also, the better XP will get optimised, the more people will complain it makes the CPU run too hot... : )
Btw, with XP12 I can quite easily make my 3090 the bottleneck on a single 4k screen. But yes, 4k is more pixels than 3 times fullHD for example, so that GPU could probably handle it.
Can you do a video on Nvidia Control panel and it's relationship with XP12?
and I still don't get it why on separate PC can work together 3 instants of xplane but you can't run 3 times xplane on single PC (with so many cores should not be problem) with even communication between each instance by network protocol. In win11 you can force to run individual program on different GPU so multiGPU system will can come back (without SLI/Crossfire). (xplane don't have massive fps so pcie3.0 x4 should be enough for single GPU)
and I tested and it's working as I say. But you can't run on the one GPU because difference in fps between instances are ridiculous. When you run on different GPUs then its ok. To run on different GPU you must set primary display to that one powered by specyfic GPU than start xplane, and change primary display with every run/copy of xplane.
Hi, any computer recommendation for x-plane 12 using 3 projectors with external monitors for instruments and still getting decent frames rates?
Run 3 copies of X-Plane 12 (even on the same PC). ua-cam.com/video/DrhQGNl1sJQ/v-deo.html
I took your advice and got i7 12700k rtx 3080 and xplanes 12 stutter every couple seconds.is there a fix to that because high end pc can't run this game smoothly on one screen.
Very interesting. So because I'm running 3 screens (17" touch for air manager instruments, 1 gns530 and my main, a 4k 50 inch tv.) that is why I only get 40fps or so with an rtx 3090ti. Kind of makes sense.
Thanks for the video.
That's not what he's saying. He is saying this is what happens when you add additional xplane visuals screens. The GNS530 and air manager panels are not xplane visuals. They will of course impact framerate, but not to the same level as rendering 3D scenery and 3D cockpit
@@flightsimdeskuk that makes sense. I misunderstood at first I guess. Thanks 🙂
Id be curious to know what happens if you turn your two panel displays off.. What's your fps? If it shoots up to like 70-80, then x plane is really not optimizing cores.
@@Bren39 I'm at work now for 8 months away from home and sim but I've learned due to using a 4k tv instead of a pc monitor that I am likely bottle necked at my tv.
hello can someone please help me.
im currently running Xplane12 on my pc... processor i5 8400, 64 bit.
i can run the game Maxed out grahic scenery and it Runs Smooth as butter,
But once i plug in my HTC vive VR..., the game plays really laggy.... and i have to turn everything down.
What can i do to solve this? i love flying in VR.
I just make quick test on ONE PC windows11 (xplanes run as administrator). I install 2 instances of xplane12 in master/visual machine(each powered 1 monitor) i set different ports and manually set IP and ports address, in Master/visual machine. (IP is everywhere the same but ports not) And when two instances work I have 80fps and when I close "visual machine" and run 2 monitors i have 45fps. CPU use go from 25% (one instance of xplane) to 50% (two instance of xplane) (5800x3d) but lag between monitors is way worse than on 2 separate PC.
one and another instance of xplane have different fps and depends when was mouse click last there bigger fps. massive lag was because 15fps was on second instance but on first 80fps
I added second GPU to PC and I can force video player/chrome/AirManager to run on second GPU but when I tell windows11 to run second instance of xplane on second GPU don't work. (second monitor pluged to second GPU) WHY!!!
I made it. first set second monitor (powered by second gpu) as primary monitor then run one instance of xplane. then when it's running go change again main monitor to powered by first GPU then run second instance of xplane. that will make each CPU usage x2 and both GPU are used. and remember to not drag popout avionics to monitor powered by another gpu.
Seems like you guys need to work on parallelizing your tasks, obviously. This is not a huge deal in more modern code frameworks, but I wonder if what is holding you back is that you’re using an older, lower level codebase that doesn’t multithread easily. I can only guess without looking at the source.
Meanwhile, I hope XP12 soon supports Apple’s DLSS framework MetalFX. Seems like an easy thing to add so I wonder why it hasn’t been done.
There’s not a lot of older code in X-Plane 12 as most of the code has been rewritten while they have implemented the Vulkan and Metal graphical solutions.
What happens if you use Nvidia Surround so X-Plans sees it as a single screen/resolution? 🤔
Much better fps. But it looks distorted.
if you mount all screen on flat wall then distortions don't apply (and you set FOV the same as you have from your eyes to edges of outside screens). the fps will drop because FOV is heavy cpu time killer. (less vs 3 seperate monitors)
I am using AMD's Eyefinty and am getting the same results. My frame rates are significantly reduced but as long as I can maintain ~30fps, it's doable. My philosophy is this: in real life I don't fly with "blinders" (unless IFR training/practice) and therefore 3 screens are essential. I am presently working with 3 x 32" (5760x1080) curved monitors and could not enjoy XP with less. IMHO
MSFS is 100000% worse. I drop 30-40 fps when you just pop out a screen. At least you are ahead of the game there. No idea why they can’t figure it out like Xplane has. As an Airmanager user a 2nd or 3rd screen is a must for me. With these new CPU’s I can’t imagine how awesome these sims could be if they took full affect of their power. Thanks
No offense. Not true. 20 yrs XP user. I now use MFS for 3 wide/touchscreen multimon/AM use. Using 1440p 3 32" LG IPS Nano. 1 ASUS touchscreen, 2080ti/i9. Very smooth. The secret for perf is High settings and DLSS in performance mode. I use WT G5000/Longitude with 3 GTC and pfd/mfd popouts on touchscreen with AM. Very smooth. Using Pop out Manager addon allows for G5000 3 gtc use in Air Manager, as well as pfd/mfd. I will use XP again if they fix multimon perf issues and get rid of silly puddles. Good Luck. LR will have to license DLSS for Vulcan to remain competitive.
Just get a big curved ultrawide monitor and save money from not needing to buy additional monitors and double your frame rates. It's a pretty simple excellent solution.
Not really. The wider the screen, the greater the visual distortion at the edges.
@@flightsimdeskuk I get 0 distortion. Check your settings or buy a better quality monitor.
@@RobertoGodfrey It is nothing to do with the quality of the monitor. The wider the field of view being rendered, the more distortion there is at the edges. Objects will look more stretched out and bigger on the edges than they do in the centre. It's like viewing the world through a wide-angle lens. Russ Barlow did an excellent video demonstrating this. Three 50 degree screens looks massively better than one 150 degree screen.
@@flightsimdeskuk Like I said…I’m experiencing none of that. Clearly something wrong on your end.
@@flightsimdeskuk it depends on your FOV settings, a wider FOV results in distortions at the edge as the picture is stretched out. That setting is independent of the monitors resolution.
X.plane 12 2023 DVD bourahlà Smail algerle
CPU Manufacturers: MORE CORES!
PC Game Devs: SINGLE CORE ONLY!
seriously, there ain't no damned excuse why these newer games aren't optimized to run on multicore CPUs. pretty much no one has less than 4 but the devs still want to write for 1, maybe 2.
Could be 2 reasons. A) all(!) developers are either too stupid or too lazy, B) it isn't that easy, as we lay people think.
@@jorn-jorenjorenson5028 or that doing so will break third party integrations
X-Plane is multicore, but flight simulators are special in this regards. You can easily unload certain tasks to other cores and others not so much in order to keep integrity of the world you create. Microsoft has the same problem with MSFS2020.
@@samueldickes that isn't the point- I know about CPU affinity, but it's 2023 and devs are still writing code as if we have 1 or 2 cores. look into serious projects like commercial-grade rendering and other scientific research and they are using EVERYTHING a CPU has, which is why it's common to see dual CPU setups with 128 cores and every one being used.
@@sigbauer9782 The rendering I assume you are refering too is a very different story. Current realtime 3d graphics of games/sims work in a very different way. Do you really think, the devs wouldn't use every reasonal possibility to make their rendering as fast as possible?