Could a trap bar jump shrug be used to build up to a clean? I have yet to include cleans in my training and I am just working on how to do the clean at the moment.
olympic lifts out of all lifts gain the least carryover from any other exercises and require the most specificity, or so I hear I have never learned them because I’m lazy and not an athlete anymore
I take issue with your assumed necessity of training upper body mobility via Olympic lifting claim here. The idea you’ve promoted in that context of your argument would seem to be that coaches who do NOT program Olympic lifts do so at the expense of their athletes based on the potential for the athlete to be exposed to those upper body ranges in sport. However, the upper body mobility of the wrists, elbows, shoulders necessary for high level Olympic lifting is considerably low priority of an Olympic lift. As someone who promotes training for outputs, I’m surprised to hear you take this pathway as an argument for Olympic lifting. It would be fair to assume that the athletes and coaches using Olympic lifts in the context you promote (ie. not CrossFit type training) are using them for increasing athletic output. Period. Which, by and large, are lower body biased. (Sprinting, cutting, jumping, etc.) Therefore, I do not believe that a given athlete looking for this type of result would lose much, if anything at all, by choosing a simpler/low barrier to entry exercise like trap bar explosive lifts vs. Olympic lifts. We’re talking very very low percentages in difference of effectiveness in pure output at that point
Have you tried olympic weightlifting before? Cause honestly the main difference for me from an experience standpoint is that trap bar jumps / shrugs just feel like shite compared to oly lifts. I'm not trying to be facetious, for me trap bar jumps feel awkward expecially to drive maximal intent. The ROM is abreviated and the mechanics feel very different from how I perform CMJ (low and pretty hingey). The arms are kinda awkwardly restricted - you have to make sure they stay stably by your side, and it feels awkward in general to have to stabilise the upper body while only driving with the lower body vs jumping and athletic movement which requires a coordinated effort between the upper and lower. Also a huge one for me is progression and measurability part of which Will mentions here and has talked about in the past. You know when you succeeded a clean, you know how well you succeeded depending on how high you catch. You can easily measure yourself against other people and its feels rewarding to improve your technique and numbers on the lift. The motivation makes a huge difference in driving maximal output! Not to mention the feeling of you're gonna die if you fk it up, kicks up the adrenaline and really drives intent and urgency. I get there's a learning curve and I don't think its neccessary for every athlete to pursue the oly lifts. However I don't see the merit of trap bar jump variations being useful enough to be a staple in any solid S&C program. I feel like oly lifts have their niche in which they're irreplaccable, whereas majority of the time I'd rather do dumbell jump or regular jumping exercises over trap bar jumps if I wanted to train power output. Trap bar jumps just feel not that great.
@@JK-wl6dx eh it’s a key differentiator he makes a point to call out. Which, if you’re a team sport athlete, is not even remotely something you’re looking for out of Olympic lifts. Period.
@@adamyuan6882 I agree with you that they are truly niche and irreplaceable. That’s a great point. Surely no matter how much you load up a trap or db explosive movement you’ll never get close to what a proficient Olympic lift would do for you IF you’re doing it right and programming it right. I like your point about alternative to trap and Olympic. I’m with you on that. Just harder to load up a db exercise than a trip bar I would guess is why most people talk about trap vs. Olympic specifically. Lastly, there are some things you can do to increase the ROM on trap explosive lifts to find a better middle ground. For example: raise the platform on which you are standing, etc. I would think Will would be accepting of that.
@@aodoemela it is all about intent. You can certainly push your intent high enough on a trap bar to yield maximal or near maximal effort. I agree, Olympics are certainly harder. Which, of course, direct relates to how much more you can get from a good Olympic lift vs. the best trap bar jump you could ever do. However, therein lies my point (and rebuttal to yours). The barrier to entry for Olympic lifts is simply too high for most. ANYONE (with the physical capabilities to do so) can sprint. ANYONE can swim by that same standard. Sure, others are better technique wise than others but someone sprinting their hardest with shitty technique at 20sec 100M is putting forth the same effort as someone with a 10sec 100. Just not the same outputs. And thus, the slower person will still improve over time from max effort sprints (even if done poorly) simply from training with max intent. This is safe to do Compare that to Olympic lifting. You may have someone who is strong enough to Clean and Press 300lbs but lacks the technique to do so. This person then must spend weeks of not months or years training SUBMAXIMALLY at weights that would barely register as stimulus (a big point Will likes to talk about) in order to work up to the weight they’re physiologically capable of moving probably today. This is in stark contrast to sprinting, to use your example, as even the athletes who’s never sprinted with good technique will see improvement and progression simply from sprinting as they know how with max intent. Whereas the Olympic weightlifter trying to do the same thing from the same novice level would have to spend (and thus waste) considerable time training with too low of a stimulus to simply end up doing an Olympic lift that they could have gotten the same out of from lower barrier to entry explosive resistance exercises (trap bar, db, etc. style jumping) You’re welcome.
Comparing the trap bar and Olympic lifts is a false equivalency argument in my opinion. It highlights a limited understanding of biomechanics and anatomy/physiology amongst the anti-Olympic lifting proponents.
«Cant expose athletes wrists and shoulders to catching a clean» - athlete goes out on football field, gets broken in half by two defenders at full speed multiple times per game😂
olympic lifts regulate themselves very well in training. you cant produce more force than you can abosrb in general and this is especially true for any kind of ahtletic cut or sprint in sport. olympic lifts regulate this, you arent overemphasizing any kind of concentric as you always need a competent eccentric and isometric portion of the lifts. i enjoy that a lot. if you dont have a strong eccenrtic strength you can't really control the weight. in trap bar lifts all these factors are ignored and alomost provide just the same beneifts as dedicated plyos. and they may even be worse becuase the stimulus to fatigue ratio is not as ideal.
Also nice that Olympic lifts provide direct feedback to guide progression. If you can't get under the bar, you shouldn't add weight yet. What determines if you add weight to the Trap Bar? I guess you could measure velocity and jump height and look for extreme changes, but barring extreme changes in power output, people just increase trap bar load based on vibes
Straight forward and to the point. As a coach my only excuse is ignorance. I seriously need to learn the ins and outs of the Olympic lifts before I can confidently coach and give cues on them. At this point I know my knowledge is a bit lacking
But what does the evidence regarding literature show tho and has this topic even been explored that way, otherwise its just my anecdotes vs your anecdotes which doesnt establish anything
my problem is that my left shoulder always starts to hurt more and more after each cleaning session and I dont know why. I can do trap bar jumps without problems and my left shoulder usually never hurts the slightest while playing my sport (basketball). any advice on this? I cant afford a personal trainer to coach me.
That trap bar lift isn't even the same motion? Maybe its a better lift if you have time constraints and your guy can't learn the clean. It is a higher skill lift. ...Why do these guys hate the clean, lol!?
Start off by doing the power variations of oly lifts along with doing front squats and snatch balances (look it up). Once you get really good at them start doing hang squat cleans and snatches. Next do it them off blocks. Next do them off the floor.
How much do you think these strength and conditioning coaches have a (slightly) negative take on olympic lifts because of how "tied" it is to Crossfit - which is basically the opposite of almost all sports in terms of complete lack of specificity - and that initial hate Crossfit as a sports got? Or is this a complete non-sequitur?
I’m sure there are some coaches wherein this is the case, but I think most coaches just haven’t truly put in the time to train the Olympic lifts to their fullest extent and are therefore short-sighted towards the lifts.
"i have a bias towards my position. But that's because my position is correct." 😄 Great stuff as always
Goated response
That was hilarious!
I don’t even use Olympic lifts in my athletes’ training and I agree with Will.
"Obviously I have a bias toward my positon but that's because my position is correct"
Thank you for this gold i'll use it in my next argument
I am glad that I usually listen to podcasts in 1.5 speed. Makes tackling these videos a bit easier. 😅
Thank you. It's getting ridiculous. A trap bar jump in comparison is basically just the "easy button" for the ego lol.
Will, can you use a portable/clip microphone? Audio quality will improve drastically.
Yeah I’ve been meaning to get one for a while just haven’t actually gotten around to it lol
Sir can you make a video on principles to use to gain explosiveness and power
This is already like 50% of his videos
You da Man
Trap Bars are good for working different muscles for DEADLIFTING and SQUATTING. Just from my experience.
Could a trap bar jump shrug be used to build up to a clean? I have yet to include cleans in my training and I am just working on how to do the clean at the moment.
olympic lifts out of all lifts gain the least carryover from any other exercises and require the most specificity, or so I hear I have never learned them because I’m lazy and not an athlete anymore
I take issue with your assumed necessity of training upper body mobility via Olympic lifting claim here.
The idea you’ve promoted in that context of your argument would seem to be that coaches who do NOT program Olympic lifts do so at the expense of their athletes based on the potential for the athlete to be exposed to those upper body ranges in sport.
However, the upper body mobility of the wrists, elbows, shoulders necessary for high level Olympic lifting is considerably low priority of an Olympic lift. As someone who promotes training for outputs, I’m surprised to hear you take this pathway as an argument for Olympic lifting.
It would be fair to assume that the athletes and coaches using Olympic lifts in the context you promote (ie. not CrossFit type training) are using them for increasing athletic output. Period. Which, by and large, are lower body biased. (Sprinting, cutting, jumping, etc.)
Therefore, I do not believe that a given athlete looking for this type of result would lose much, if anything at all, by choosing a simpler/low barrier to entry exercise like trap bar explosive lifts vs. Olympic lifts.
We’re talking very very low percentages in difference of effectiveness in pure output at that point
What about the other differences he mentioned? The upper body mobility demands are not the main point of his argument at all.
Have you tried olympic weightlifting before? Cause honestly the main difference for me from an experience standpoint is that trap bar jumps / shrugs just feel like shite compared to oly lifts.
I'm not trying to be facetious, for me trap bar jumps feel awkward expecially to drive maximal intent. The ROM is abreviated and the mechanics feel very different from how I perform CMJ (low and pretty hingey). The arms are kinda awkwardly restricted - you have to make sure they stay stably by your side, and it feels awkward in general to have to stabilise the upper body while only driving with the lower body vs jumping and athletic movement which requires a coordinated effort between the upper and lower.
Also a huge one for me is progression and measurability part of which Will mentions here and has talked about in the past. You know when you succeeded a clean, you know how well you succeeded depending on how high you catch. You can easily measure yourself against other people and its feels rewarding to improve your technique and numbers on the lift. The motivation makes a huge difference in driving maximal output! Not to mention the feeling of you're gonna die if you fk it up, kicks up the adrenaline and really drives intent and urgency.
I get there's a learning curve and I don't think its neccessary for every athlete to pursue the oly lifts. However I don't see the merit of trap bar jump variations being useful enough to be a staple in any solid S&C program. I feel like oly lifts have their niche in which they're irreplaccable, whereas majority of the time I'd rather do dumbell jump or regular jumping exercises over trap bar jumps if I wanted to train power output.
Trap bar jumps just feel not that great.
@@JK-wl6dx eh it’s a key differentiator he makes a point to call out. Which, if you’re a team sport athlete, is not even remotely something you’re looking for out of Olympic lifts. Period.
@@adamyuan6882 I agree with you that they are truly niche and irreplaceable. That’s a great point.
Surely no matter how much you load up a trap or db explosive movement you’ll never get close to what a proficient Olympic lift would do for you IF you’re doing it right and programming it right.
I like your point about alternative to trap and Olympic. I’m with you on that. Just harder to load up a db exercise than a trip bar I would guess is why most people talk about trap vs. Olympic specifically.
Lastly, there are some things you can do to increase the ROM on trap explosive lifts to find a better middle ground. For example: raise the platform on which you are standing, etc. I would think Will would be accepting of that.
@@aodoemela it is all about intent. You can certainly push your intent high enough on a trap bar to yield maximal or near maximal effort. I agree, Olympics are certainly harder. Which, of course, direct relates to how much more you can get from a good Olympic lift vs. the best trap bar jump you could ever do.
However, therein lies my point (and rebuttal to yours). The barrier to entry for Olympic lifts is simply too high for most. ANYONE (with the physical capabilities to do so) can sprint. ANYONE can swim by that same standard. Sure, others are better technique wise than others but someone sprinting their hardest with shitty technique at 20sec 100M is putting forth the same effort as someone with a 10sec 100. Just not the same outputs. And thus, the slower person will still improve over time from max effort sprints (even if done poorly) simply from training with max intent. This is safe to do
Compare that to Olympic lifting. You may have someone who is strong enough to Clean and Press 300lbs but lacks the technique to do so. This person then must spend weeks of not months or years training SUBMAXIMALLY at weights that would barely register as stimulus (a big point Will likes to talk about) in order to work up to the weight they’re physiologically capable of moving probably today.
This is in stark contrast to sprinting, to use your example, as even the athletes who’s never sprinted with good technique will see improvement and progression simply from sprinting as they know how with max intent. Whereas the Olympic weightlifter trying to do the same thing from the same novice level would have to spend (and thus waste) considerable time training with too low of a stimulus to simply end up doing an Olympic lift that they could have gotten the same out of from lower barrier to entry explosive resistance exercises (trap bar, db, etc. style jumping)
You’re welcome.
Comparing the trap bar and Olympic lifts is a false equivalency argument in my opinion. It highlights a limited understanding of biomechanics and anatomy/physiology amongst the anti-Olympic lifting proponents.
Correct
«Cant expose athletes wrists and shoulders to catching a clean» - athlete goes out on football field, gets broken in half by two defenders at full speed multiple times per game😂
olympic lifts regulate themselves very well in training. you cant produce more force than you can abosrb in general and this is especially true for any kind of ahtletic cut or sprint in sport. olympic lifts regulate this, you arent overemphasizing any kind of concentric as you always need a competent eccentric and isometric portion of the lifts. i enjoy that a lot. if you dont have a strong eccenrtic strength you can't really control the weight. in trap bar lifts all these factors are ignored and alomost provide just the same beneifts as dedicated plyos. and they may even be worse becuase the stimulus to fatigue ratio is not as ideal.
Also nice that Olympic lifts provide direct feedback to guide progression. If you can't get under the bar, you shouldn't add weight yet. What determines if you add weight to the Trap Bar? I guess you could measure velocity and jump height and look for extreme changes, but barring extreme changes in power output, people just increase trap bar load based on vibes
Very true
Straight forward and to the point. As a coach my only excuse is ignorance. I seriously need to learn the ins and outs of the Olympic lifts before I can confidently coach and give cues on them. At this point I know my knowledge is a bit lacking
Bro stays spittin. Olympic lifts are the shit
But what does the evidence regarding literature show tho and has this topic even been explored that way, otherwise its just my anecdotes vs your anecdotes which doesnt establish anything
We can know things without data
Homeboy just explained the main reason. Rewatch the vid my guy.
my problem is that my left shoulder always starts to hurt more and more after each cleaning session and I dont know why. I can do trap bar jumps without problems and my left shoulder usually never hurts the slightest while playing my sport (basketball). any advice on this? I cant afford a personal trainer to coach me.
That trap bar lift isn't even the same motion? Maybe its a better lift if you have time constraints and your guy can't learn the clean. It is a higher skill lift. ...Why do these guys hate the clean, lol!?
Hi, I need some experience in Oly lifts if i want to run the Hoss Olympic program? I never did them before
Start off by doing the power variations of oly lifts along with doing front squats and snatch balances (look it up). Once you get really good at them start doing hang squat cleans and snatches. Next do it them off blocks. Next do them off the floor.
Final point particularly important : cleans demand something that trap bar lifts don’t - you need to catch the thing - or else!
Exactly! The body awareness you have to have on oly lifts can't be replaced. It's not just about strength and power.
I pitt powerlifting against oly lifting on purpose in my training, keeps me young
Shout out to Schmarzo's dogshit Snatch Pull
Lol
No skin in the game with trap bar dead lift. Clean forces the body to react to the propulsion, trap bar does not.
How much do you think these strength and conditioning coaches have a (slightly) negative take on olympic lifts because of how "tied" it is to Crossfit - which is basically the opposite of almost all sports in terms of complete lack of specificity - and that initial hate Crossfit as a sports got? Or is this a complete non-sequitur?
I’m sure there are some coaches wherein this is the case, but I think most coaches just haven’t truly put in the time to train the Olympic lifts to their fullest extent and are therefore short-sighted towards the lifts.